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nwa757
07-29-2014, 07:01 AM
There was movement last week with respect to the negotiation of a Protocol Agreement with APA and the Company. The NMB asked the parties (APA, USAPA and the Company) to meet with NMB Chief of Staff Dan Rainey. The meeting took place in Washington, D.C., at the NMB on Wednesday, July 23. At the meeting Mr. Rainey suggested the parties engage in private mediation concerning the Protocol Agreement.

Mediation is a process in which the mediator assists the parties in reaching a voluntary resolution. The mediator has no authority to compel any party to make any agreement.

The parties have agreed to this suggestion and have asked George Cohen, former head of the Federal Mediation and Conciliation Service (FMCS), to act as the mediator.

Mr. Cohen served as FMCS Director from 2009 until the end of 2013. The FMCS is an independent federal government agency that provides mediation services to resolve labor disputes that affect interstate commerce. While FMCS Director, Mr. Cohen personally mediated disputes involving Major League Soccer and the Major League Soccer Players Union, the Metropolitan Opera and its orchestra musicians represented by American Federation of Musicians Local 802, the National Football League and the National Football League Players Association, the Federal Aviation Administration and the National Air Traffic Controllers Association, the American Red Cross and a national coalition of labor unions, and the NBA and the NBA Players Association.

As is customary in mediation, the mediation process will be conducted privately and only the results will be announced. The participants will include the Merger Committees for APA and USAPA, Merger Counsel for the Committees, and representatives from the Company. Mediation sessions will begin on August 5 in Washington, D.C. Any resulting agreement will be subject to approval as required by the governing documents of each party.

This is an opportunity for the parties to resolve any differences concerning the Protocol Agreement so that we can move on with an orderly process leading to an integrated seniority list. USAPA and our Merger Committee view this as a positive development that promises to provide the best opportunity for the parties to reach a Protocol Agreement that will protect the rights of all pilots in achieving a fair and equitable integrated seniority list.

We will keep you posted on further developments.


fosters
07-29-2014, 08:09 AM
A lot of east guys live in current AA bases. Hopefully it can get done quickly. I hear RC5 will be in effect starting in Sept.

121PyLut
07-29-2014, 10:23 PM
A lot of east guys live in current AA bases. Hopefully it can get done quickly. I hear RC5 will be in effect starting in Sept.

Pardon my stupidity, but what does RC5 have to do with this? Just asking...not flaming! Thanks!


fosters
07-30-2014, 09:55 AM
Pardon my stupidity, but what does RC5 have to do with this? Just asking...not flaming! Thanks!

Company is moving rapidly toward SOC at which point the 18 month countdown starts on the MTA. After that is up, it's anyone's guess what could happen. Transferring aircraft from the US to the AA side and furloughing is a possibility.

pullforexit
07-30-2014, 10:07 AM
Or they could sell all the airplanes and go into potato farming. That's probably more likely than furloughs at this point.

Al Czervik
07-30-2014, 10:13 AM
Transferring aircraft from the US to the AA side and furloughing is a possibility.

Do you honestly believe this?

drinksonme
07-30-2014, 10:23 AM
Company is moving rapidly toward SOC at which point the 18 month countdown starts on the MTA. After that is up, it's anyone's guess what could happen. Transferring aircraft from the US to the AA side and furloughing is a possibility.

Directly from the union update yesterday: "The NMB asked the parties"

Then this today: NMB agrees with flight attendants that American Airlines and US Airways are ?single transportation system? | Dallas Morning News (http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/2014/07/nmb-agrees-with-flight-attendants-that-american-airlines-and-us-airways-are-single-transportation-system.html/)


I thinks it's more of a realization by USAPA, then a worry about SOC
18 month countdown, that they are not really making a case that is going to win over the courts and NMB. If they lose those battles, then they have no legs to stand on. Yes, finishing SOC would put more pressure on the situation, but that seems like protection the company afforded itself IF things went way south, and appeal after appeal racked up over the years. USAPA can TRY to come to an agreement with APA and move forward without all the ugliness with this mediation. I am probably wrong, but this "movement" is a positive thing and hopefully cooler heads are prevailing, but time.....and maybe the courts (hopefully not) will tell.

Surprise
07-30-2014, 10:27 AM
So completed SLI notwithstanding, any idea when (if ever) we new-hire third list types can bid freely east and west? There's people stuck on both sides who would rather have the other.

algflyr
07-30-2014, 11:08 AM
Company is moving rapidly toward SOC at which point the 18 month countdown starts on the MTA. After that is up, it's anyone's guess what could happen. Transferring aircraft from the US to the AA side and furloughing is a possibility.

There is a no furlough clause in the MTA. It will be a part of the JCBA. It will also extend beyond the amendment date of the JCBA while in negotiations for a new contract that will come after the JCBA they are currently working on...

Read paragraph 11 of the MOU...

porqueno
07-30-2014, 11:20 AM
I thought the MOU had a no furlough clause

algflyr
07-30-2014, 11:31 AM
Directly from the union update yesterday: "The NMB asked the parties"

Then this today: NMB agrees with flight attendants that American Airlines and US Airways are ?single transportation system? | Dallas Morning News (http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/2014/07/nmb-agrees-with-flight-attendants-that-american-airlines-and-us-airways-are-single-transportation-system.html/)


I thinks it's more of a realization by USAPA, then a worry about SOC
18 month countdown, that they are not really making a case that is going to win over the courts and NMB. If they lose those battles, then they have no legs to stand on. Yes, finishing SOC would put more pressure on the situation, but that seems like protection the company afforded itself IF things went way south, and appeal after appeal racked up over the years. USAPA can TRY to come to an agreement with APA and move forward without all the ugliness with this mediation. I am probably wrong, but this "movement" is a positive thing and hopefully cooler heads are prevailing, but time.....and maybe the courts (hopefully not) will tell.


The NMB declared single carrier status as it pertains to the FA's.

If you read the update from the APFA https://www.apfa.org/hotline/hotline-archives-for-2014/july-2014-hotlines/3207-7-29-14, it's interesting how it will happen and the involvement of both unions after the APFA takes over.

Interesting read at the bottom. It says that AFTER the 30 days the APFA will become the new union. HOWEVER, the AFA will STILL represent the US Airways FA's until a JCBA. And even after that, the AFA will continue to process grievances that arose under US Airways.

I guess it's different for a pilots union opposed to a FA union. I mean how can the NMB allow another union to have ANY input after the APFA is declared the union? Unless that's how it's supposed to work... :)

I'm betting it's stuff like that which will be defined by a protocol agreement for the pilots.

The AFA is on the way out. But they will still be involved even after they are no longer the union. I guess it's not unheard of for USAPA to expect the same... And the NMB doesn't seem to object to this.

algflyr
07-30-2014, 11:35 AM
I thought the MOU had a no furlough clause

There is. and it's in effect now and during the JCBA and even after that while a new contract is worked on... So it seems it extends at least well into 2019 and beyond...

fosters
07-30-2014, 11:39 AM
There is a no furlough clause in the MTA. It will be a part of the JCBA. It will also extend beyond the amendment date of the JCBA while in negotiations for a new contract that will come after the JCBA they are currently working on...

Read paragraph 11 of the MOU...

It's my understanding that the MTA is valid only for 18 months after SOC

algflyr
07-30-2014, 11:54 AM
It's my understanding that the MTA is valid only for 18 months after SOC

The MTA is a transition agreement that gets us to a JCBA. Then the JCBA will be in effect. The only thing that had ties to an 18 month countdown was certain protections contained in paragraph 8 of the MOU. The no furlough clause is NOT one of those protections.

And it was 18 months after SOC OR a JCBA and SLI become effective, whichever is earlier. While it's possible a SLI will not be reached before the 18 month limit, I honestly believe it will. The mediation begins in less than a week. A lot will become known after that process runs its course.

fosters
07-30-2014, 12:04 PM
The MTA is a transition agreement that gets us to a JCBA. Then the JCBA will be in effect. The only thing that had ties to an 18 month countdown was certain protections contained in paragraph 8 of the MOU. The no furlough clause is NOT one of those protections.

And it was 18 months after SOC OR a JCBA and SLI become effective, whichever is earlier. While it's possible a SLI will not be reached before the 18 month limit, I honestly believe it will. The mediation begins in less than a week. A lot will become known after that process runs its course.

Well that's nice, makes me feel quite a bit better now. At least we are seeing movement in the right direction. I can see both sides here, I have flown with guys who explicitly said had AWA merged the list like was supposed to happen they would've been completely screwed out of the left seat all together, with just a couple more years left to retire. I support those guys, they will be retired soon, the AWA guys have 20+ years to be a CA...

I understand why USAPA is dragging their feet but also at some point they need to have a come to Jesus moment.

drinksonme
07-30-2014, 12:14 PM
The NMB declared single carrier status as it pertains to the FA's.

If you read the update from the APFA https://www.apfa.org/hotline/hotline-archives-for-2014/july-2014-hotlines/3207-7-29-14, it's interesting how it will happen and the involvement of both unions after the APFA takes over.

Interesting read at the bottom. It says that AFTER the 30 days the APFA will become the new union. HOWEVER, the AFA will STILL represent the US Airways FA's until a JCBA. And even after that, the AFA will continue to process grievances that arose under US Airways.

I guess it's different for a pilots union opposed to a FA union. I mean how can the NMB allow another union to have ANY input after the APFA is declared the union? Unless that's how it's supposed to work... :)

I'm betting it's stuff like that which will be defined by a protocol agreement for the pilots.

The AFA is on the way out. But they will still be involved even after they are no longer the union. I guess it's not unheard of for USAPA to expect the same... And the NMB doesn't seem to object to this.


I did read the article. It's the bigger picture. NMB says FA's are one, I highly doubt they will say pilots are not. With regard to grievences, it makes sense that the AFA should handle the grievences THAT AROSE UNDER US AIRWAYS. Why would the APFA handle US AIRWAYS grievences when they never were under US Airways contracts, nor the bargaining agent when those grievences arose. I can easily see the same thing happening with the pilots.

PurpleTurtle
07-30-2014, 12:28 PM
I thought the MOU had a no furlough clause

There are min block-hours flown for each list, as well as equal reduction language, etc.

PurpleTurtle
07-30-2014, 12:39 PM
I did read the article. It's the bigger picture. NMB says FA's are one, I highly doubt they will say pilots are not. With regard to grievences, it makes sense that the AFA should handle the grievences THAT AROSE UNDER US AIRWAYS. Why would the APFA handle US AIRWAYS grievences when they never were under US Airways contracts, nor the bargaining agent when those grievences arose. I can easily see the same thing happening with the pilots.

The NMB didn't say McCaskill-Bond no longer applies at SOC, but the APA can always shoot for the moon. Delay in SLI helps them every bit as much as it helps east pilots.

The mediation is more red tape, but maybe, just maybe the APA will commit to abide by the law rather than telegraph their intention to flout it at SOC.

There is a lawsuit in D.C.... APA won't want to add evidence against themselves, but the delay is marvelous.... What a fine line..

algflyr
07-30-2014, 01:54 PM
I did read the article. It's the bigger picture. NMB says FA's are one, I highly doubt they will say pilots are not. With regard to grievences, it makes sense that the AFA should handle the grievences THAT AROSE UNDER US AIRWAYS. Why would the APFA handle US AIRWAYS grievences when they never were under US Airways contracts, nor the bargaining agent when those grievences arose. I can easily see the same thing happening with the pilots.

I have no doubt the NMB will declare single carrier for the pilots as well. The question is when. They have only declared it for two groups now. For the pilots, they are continuing the investigation. I believe they will consider what happens at mediation next week. If an agreement is reached, the NMB will probably find single carrier almost immediately. The NMB isn't working in a vacuum, they are aware of what else is going on.

Some think USAPA MUST immediately dissolve once the NMB rules single carrier. That's just not how it works. They will have to remain for certain things until everything is settled. Namely grievances and SLI. That's what a protocol agreement will define...

algflyr
07-30-2014, 01:57 PM
There are min block-hours flown for each list, as well as equal reduction language, etc.

The minimum block hours ARE a part of the protections that have the 18 month clock attached... But with no furloughs, they have to fly something, so giving the planes away isn't feasible.

flyinawa
07-30-2014, 03:49 PM
Well that's nice, makes me feel quite a bit better now. At least we are seeing movement in the right direction. I can see both sides here, I have flown with guys who explicitly said had AWA merged the list like was supposed to happen they would've been completely screwed out of the left seat all together, with just a couple more years left to retire. I support those guys, they will be retired soon, the AWA guys have 20+ years to be a CA...

I understand why USAPA is dragging their feet but also at some point they need to have a come to Jesus moment.

The majority of the pilots you're referring to would have been mathematically unable to upgrade had a "merger" with AWA not occurred regardless. The fact that they got hired late in life is no reason to punish another work group. The alternative is a seniority list based 100% on age so "everybody gets a turn" but airlines are not socialist organizations.

Also, in spite of what USAPA has been telling you, AWA isn't full of 20 or 30 year old FOs. Most are pushing 50 now.

fosters
07-30-2014, 06:12 PM
The majority of the pilots you're referring to would have been mathematically unable to upgrade had a "merger" with AWA not occurred regardless. The fact that they got hired late in life is no reason to punish another work group. The alternative is a seniority list based 100% on age so "everybody gets a turn" but airlines are not socialist organizations.

Also, in spite of what USAPA has been telling you, AWA isn't full of 20 or 30 year old FOs. Most are pushing 50 now.

I'm not quite sure what you mean - all the attrition is on the east side. PHX has been kept apart from the East operation so had a merger not occurred (assuming both companies were able to continue operating) wouldn't the retirements and upgrades be happening at the same time and on the same side?

The guy I mentioned above was hired in his late 30's like the majority of my new hire class not too long ago and he finally upgraded in his early 60's. The East is very different than the West in terms of demographics. I wouldn't consider "late 30's" late in life, but it certainly is all a matter of perspective.

crzipilot
07-30-2014, 07:01 PM
What he is trying to imply to you, is that without the West saving the East, those guys would have never had the chance to upgrade because US would have been gone. So the fact that the West pilots saved the East, they should never upgrade....

flyinawa
07-30-2014, 08:14 PM
What he is trying to imply to you, is that without the West saving the East, those guys would have never had the chance to upgrade because US would have been gone. So the fact that the West pilots saved the East, they should never upgrade....

That's not what I was implying at all.

But...considering there was zero attrition for 5 years when the retirement age changed, how many new hires did the East get? How many did the West get? Pretty significant disproportion, right?

And now the East is furious AA will do to them what the East has been trying to do to the West. What nerve those AA pilots have!

PurpleTurtle
07-31-2014, 03:34 AM
That's not what I was implying at all.

But...considering there was zero attrition for 5 years when the retirement age changed, how many new hires did the East get? How many did the West get? Pretty significant disproportion, right?

And now the East is furious AA will do to them what the East has been trying to do to the West. What nerve those AA pilots have!

The East is suing for the MB statute to be followed. Opposition to that will prove futile, IMHO.

FreighterGuyNow
07-31-2014, 08:25 AM
So completed SLI notwithstanding, any idea when (if ever) we new-hire third list types can bid freely east and west? There's people stuck on both sides who would rather have the other.

Sometime in 2017 was the last I saw.