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A321
08-08-2014, 01:44 PM
Joint President's Message: JCBA expectations

In the near future, our joint negotiating committees will be passing more substantial proposals at the table based on the joint guidance provided to the committees.

The merger of American Airlines and US Airways has proven to be an enormous financial success. Having played a pivotal role in making this merger come together, the pilots of both airlines have earned the right to share in the upside. As so often occurs in this industry, things change.

American Airlines' financial performance is already in line with industry-leader Delta Air Lines in almost every meaningful category. From pre-tax margin to net profit to passenger yield to total revenue to EBITAR and other categories, American is in line with and in some instances exceeding Delta's financial performance. We have compiled a financial performance comparison chart (https://public.alliedpilots.org/APA/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=9p_GoY6_CKo%3d&tabid=1042&mid=2085) that drives home these points.

Management recently communicated to investors that "anticipated upside synergies are just beginning." The pilots at the new American Airlines are more productive than Delta pilots by a good margin (four more block hours flown per pilot per month in 2013, according to Form 41 data). That's impressive considering Delta pilots have been on preferential bidding for years. Our productivity will only increase as we make our transition to PBS.

If we are more productive than Delta pilots, we can look management squarely in the eye and demand Delta compensation, including profit-sharing.

We intend to make the case for our pilots flying E175s and other similar-sized aircraft. The pilot shortage at the regional carriers — driven by poverty-level wages for new hires — is real and materializing sooner than the industry anticipated. The carrier that abandons the regional experiment first and commits to a consistent quality product for passengers, with a reliable supply of highly qualified pilots, will win the day. We will strongly encourage management to restore American Airlines to the position of industry leader and innovator, particularly in the area of mainline pilots performing regional jet flying.

During the Conditional Labor Agreement and MOU negotiations, we willingly signed up for a JCBA process with an arbitration back-stop if an agreement cannot be reached. Management wanted a process with certainty. Agreeing to an arbitration back-stop was the price of admission to the merger path. But with the merger succeeding beyond the most optimistic expectations, an arbitrated solution would be a dismal failure for both sides. The opportunity to align our interests with management's and to share in the upside would be lost. Conversely, immediately closing our pay gap with Delta would be the single most tangible sign management could offer to remove any doubt that they are serious about creating a better relationship with the pilots of American Airlines.

We will share more details with you in the near future as negotiations continue and more substantive proposals are passed at the table.

The time to close the gap with Delta is now.

http://www.corporatecomplianceinsights.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Facebook-thumbs-up.jpg


Gallifrey
08-08-2014, 01:49 PM
Yay. Give us that delta rolling thunder too.

Piklepausepull
08-08-2014, 01:52 PM
Good luck with that!

Can't wait until you take up the slack, ......that you created..........

I hope you get $300 an hour for your airbii/737's!


CaptainBigWood
08-08-2014, 01:55 PM
"If we are more productive than Delta pilots, we can look management squarely in the eye and demand Delta compensation, including profit-sharing."
Doug Parker won't blink and say no.

Gallifrey
08-08-2014, 01:59 PM
Parks will say heck no

kingairip
08-08-2014, 02:08 PM
No. Parker might stop laughing long enough to say "wait...you really thought I was different than Horton?!?" then, resume laughing.

Saabs
08-08-2014, 02:27 PM
Good luck with that!

Can't wait until you take up the slack, ......that you created..........

I hope you get $300 an hour for your airbii/737's!
Haha did purple drank create another profile ??

A321
08-08-2014, 02:40 PM
It's amazing how pessimistic pilots can be.

The quote.... "a union is only as strong as it's weakest member" ....comes to mind.

eaglefly
08-08-2014, 02:47 PM
No. Parker might stop laughing long enough to say "wait...you really thought I was different than Horton?!?" then, resume laughing.

Yes, I'd be surprised to see Parker just roll over. All APA (and USAPA at this point) can do is ask, but still hat in hand. He'll try and throw us as spindly a bone as possible thinking well be happy with whatever we can get.

I expect a statement along the lines of, "well, the business is cyclical and we would be jeopardizing our shareholders to commit to any top employee wage scales now and face a downturn in the future", etc.

In effect, were all "Spauldings" at this point and well get little or nothing and like it.

deltajuliet
08-08-2014, 04:32 PM
We intend to make the case for our pilots flying E175s and other similar-sized aircraft. The pilot shortage at the regional carriers — driven by poverty-level wages for new hires — is real and materializing sooner than the industry anticipated. The carrier that abandons the regional experiment first and commits to a consistent quality product for passengers, with a reliable supply of highly qualified pilots, will win the day. We will strongly encourage management to restore American Airlines to the position of industry leader and innovator, particularly in the area of mainline pilots performing regional jet flying.

This would be great for all us regional guys, but I understand the basic economics of outsourcing to cheaper labor. I'm not sure how they can financially justify this point as much as I'd love to see it come true.

QuagmireGiggity
08-08-2014, 05:56 PM
This would be great for all us regional guys, but I understand the basic economics of outsourcing to cheaper labor. I'm not sure how they can financially justify this point as much as I'd love to see it come true.
Because a point is coming where there simply won't be enough people to fly them all.

deltajuliet
08-08-2014, 06:03 PM
Okay, I see where you're coming from. But with all the thousands of regional pilots, I could see them holding off on taking back significant scope at least a few years. It seems like a "hold off until you absolutely have to" kind of thing.

crzipilot
08-08-2014, 06:05 PM
Just look at parkers quotes in the dallas news re: profit sharing, It's not coming, along with increased wages, at least for the pilots. Sorry but both sides signed on to the MOU, which pretty much specifically states when and where the cost increases come from. As he has repeatedly said and his minions have testified, the JCBA costs are basically already quantified in the big picture, it's just a matter of ironing out the details.

Read the testimony of Paul Jones (who is he) in the NMB findings of SCS. THAT is where Parker and his boys figure they are sitting at in regards to a JCBA. No material cost increase. You can bet he won't change his mind.


Do you really think he is afraid of an angry pilot group after what he has dealt with for the past 8 yrs. Hell he capitalized on it.

Reality of Parker is about to hit some people square in the face real soon, about 6 months....

tiger16
08-08-2014, 06:13 PM
^^^^^^^^^^^^ding^^^^^^^^^^^^

Saabs
08-08-2014, 07:15 PM
Even if we get the same pay rates we are sooooo behind in work rules and soft pay it's not even funny. We will not get a Delta equivalent contract. Please que the guy that says "with that attitude the pilot group won't ever get what they want". Nobody doubts parker is a decent ceo. Also nobody doubts he knows how to keep labor costs in control. See Parker : his entire career

LIOG41
08-08-2014, 08:22 PM
Everything is negotiable fellas. We will see. Have some faith for crying out loud and support the movement for Immediate Delta pay plus PS.

Papasiera
08-08-2014, 09:14 PM
Even if we get the same pay rates we are sooooo behind in work rules and soft pay it's not even funny. We will not get a Delta equivalent contract. Please que the guy that says "with that attitude the pilot group won't ever get what they want". Nobody doubts parker is a decent ceo. Also nobody doubts he knows how to keep labor costs in control. See Parker : his entire career


I'm not up to speed on the differences between AA and DL contracts. What are some examples of work rules where AA falls behind?

CaptainBigWood
08-09-2014, 01:27 AM
I would like to hear from some Delta pilots who are in negotiation. Rumor is the narrow body rates $230+ per hour. What excuse is Parker going to find to get out of that?

crzipilot
08-09-2014, 03:36 AM
Everything is negotiable fellas. We will see. Have some faith for crying out loud and support the movement for Immediate Delta pay plus PS.


I have no problem being optimistic and thinking, Parker out of the goodness of his heart, is going to tell his labor negotiators. Look, I know we agreed to keep the costs at this, but Hey let's be nice and give them another 20% increase on rates.

It's as simple as watching him operate the past 8 yrs, that is not his MO. He has an agreement and he is going to use that to his best advantage.

I'll support anything APA or whomever asks to do, I just think APA is going to get a real dose of reality of what and how Parker operates.

flybywire44
08-09-2014, 08:26 AM
The union is purporting that MOU negotiations were predicated on grossly inaccurate data. On the other hand, I think it would be prudent for management uses these extra monies to pay down debt the companies debt.

This union letter does not mention how heavily saddled AAL is with debt relative to DAL.

It's amazing how pessimistic pilots can be.

The quote.... "a union is only as strong as it's weakest member" ....comes to mind.


Great quote.

Piklepausepull
08-09-2014, 09:34 AM
Delta pilots not yet in negotiations.....We are waiting for YOU to do some heavy lifting for a change!

Feel free to use our rates to get yourselves a big pay raise, and we will use YOU like a cheap date, to get OUR big pay raises......

Who's this purple drank person? hahaha

kingairip
08-09-2014, 10:37 AM
The quote.... "a union is only as strong as it's weakest member" ....comes to mind.

Oh yeah. Well...Confucius said "a union is only as smart as its dumbest member." :p

PurpleTurtle
08-09-2014, 01:15 PM
^^^^^^^^^^^^ding^^^^^^^^^^^^


Yes, ding. The only group he has to placate are the ReAAl pilots. The rest are sheep.

JetPilotMan
08-09-2014, 01:52 PM
Yes, ding. The only group he has to placate are the ReAAl pilots. The rest are sheep.

Sure hope you aren't referring to your regional brethren at the newly renamed Envoy who are experiencing some harsh realities of this new management...

PurpleTurtle
08-09-2014, 02:09 PM
Sure hope you aren't referring to your regional brethren at the newly renamed Envoy who are experiencing some harsh realities of this new management...

Not at all. The sheep are the non-APA pilots. But sadly the Envoy pilots may learn a lot about America West's approach to profits.

BOGSAT
08-09-2014, 02:24 PM
This would be great for all us regional guys, but I understand the basic economics of outsourcing to cheaper labor. I'm not sure how they can financially justify this point as much as I'd love to see it come true.
Because a point is coming where there simply won't be enough people to fly them all.

Or maybe the new reality would be to have all new (fill in the company name) pilots flow thru a regional type model first. Like a mandatory B-scale flow for all hired on? Now that would create a new and interesting dynamic. Ohh this industry - what surprises will be next?

Dolphinflyer
08-09-2014, 05:45 PM
Or maybe the new reality would be to have all new (fill in the company name) pilots flow thru a regional type model first. Like a mandatory B-scale flow for all hired on? Now that would create a new and interesting dynamic. Ohh this industry - what surprises will be next?

Pilots were and today are not the problem with RJ economics. The main number is Bitzy and Trixie who want $50+ hour to serve Cokes for 10 minutes each leg. Toss in the mechanics who won't drop their drawers on pay (can't blame em') and the rest of real world costs for smaller jets like facilities and fuel, and we could have FO's working for $5/hour and still lose money.

Yet we still end up low balling like a cheap hooker an hour before the US Navy ship leaves her port.

seafeye
08-10-2014, 02:46 PM
What is the scope for large RJ's right now?

Seems Republic/PSA/Eagle may all soon have more and more large airplanes. When is it going to stop?

flybywire44
08-10-2014, 08:54 PM
What is the scope for large RJ's right now?

Seems Republic/PSA/Eagle may all soon have more and more large airplanes. When is it going to stop?

When you write a letter to your union about scope, have hundreds of pilots in your lounge read it, and storm every union meeting until you get a promise from your reps that no more scope will be relaxed.

Mason32
08-11-2014, 09:38 AM
When you write a letter to your union about scope, have hundreds of pilots in your lounge read it, and storm every union meeting until you get a promise from your reps that no more scope will be relaxed.

AAG is sitting on orders for a stack of E175 E2's
They want to fly them at regionals but need scope relief to do it.

We must hold the line, or eventually it will be 73's at regionals

GHOST
08-11-2014, 10:14 AM
AAG is sitting on orders for a stack of E175 E2's
They want to fly them at regionals but need scope relief to do it.

We must hold the line, or eventually it will be 73's at regionals

I'm all for (and always have been) holding the line on scope. The sad reality is that we as pilots are our own worse enemy. I flew with a CA on the Bus the other day and he told me he's fine with selling scope for a pay parity review this JCBA. Furthermore, I literally saw/overheard two Mesa pilots - and I can't make this *hit up - giving each other high fives while talking about 1.5 year upgrade on the E-Jet. We are getting killed on both sides (those on the outside looking in, and those on the inside on their way out). I truly believe that we are the future of this airline and it is our responsibility to restore what has been lost.

GHOST

Hueypilot
08-11-2014, 12:24 PM
I'm just curious...but why is it cheaper to outsource E175s to a regional than keep them in house and make them 190s? I can't imagine that a 190 is too much cheaper to operate, and given the minor pay difference between regional pilot pay vice our Group 1 pay, does it really make much of a difference? And somewhere in there the regional carrier needs it's cut of profit too, however small it may be...

R57 relay
08-11-2014, 04:30 PM
I'm just curious...but why is it cheaper to outsource E175s to a regional than keep them in house and make them 190s? I can't imagine that a 190 is too much cheaper to operate, and given the minor pay difference between regional pilot pay vice our Group 1 pay, does it really make much of a difference? And somewhere in there the regional carrier needs it's cut of profit too, however small it may be...

Well, off the top of my head I'd have to say the 175 at Express doesn't have a 30 year F/A, mechanic or agents working them. Plus it's not just the hourly rate, have to add in retirement and benefits. Not sure how they compare. But mostly I'd say if they were on the main line then Doug couldn't play all the regional groups against one another.

I doubt we will ever see the 175 here. Heck, we can't even fill 190 captain vacancies!y

deltajuliet
08-11-2014, 09:53 PM
I'm just curious...but why is it cheaper to outsource E175s to a regional than keep them in house and make them 190s? I can't imagine that a 190 is too much cheaper to operate, and given the minor pay difference between regional pilot pay vice our Group 1 pay, does it really make much of a difference? And somewhere in there the regional carrier needs it's cut of profit too, however small it may be...

Suppose you've got a 1 hour flight that could be operated by Mesa with an E175 or by American with an E190. Suppose the FO is 1st year and the Captain is 5th year.

Mesa:

FO's hourly rate: $22
Captain's: $69

Total: $91

American:

FO's hourly rate: $40
Captain's: $116

Total: $156

You could get into the 190's extra seating capacity/fuel burn and R57's points, but this pay difference is the root cause. Extrapolate that over tends of thousands of flights and the cost savings becomes evident.

80ktsClamp
08-11-2014, 11:29 PM
Suppose you've got a 1 hour flight that could be operated by Mesa with an E175 or by American with an E190. Suppose the FO is 1st year and the Captain is 5th year.

Mesa:

FO's hourly rate: $22
Captain's: $69

Total: $91

American:

FO's hourly rate: $40
Captain's: $116

Total: $156

You could get into the 190's extra seating capacity/fuel burn and R57's points, but this pay difference is the root cause. Extrapolate that over tends of thousands of flights and the cost savings becomes evident.

Fuel is by far the highest cost in aircraft operations these days. Your basic math is correct, but completely off given the current environment of fuel costs (among other areas).

PurpleTurtle
08-12-2014, 03:21 AM
Suppose you've got a 1 hour flight that could be operated by Mesa with an E175 or by American with an E190. Suppose the FO is 1st year and the Captain is 5th year.

Mesa:

FO's hourly rate: $22
Captain's: $69

Total: $91

American:

FO's hourly rate: $40
Captain's: $116

Total: $156

You could get into the 190's extra seating capacity/fuel burn and R57's points, but this pay difference is the root cause. Extrapolate that over tends of thousands of flights and the cost savings becomes evident.

Ok, let's assume all that is true...

Still, compare Southwest pay rates to the above examples and explain why they still make a profit every quarter...

SilverandSore
08-12-2014, 06:16 AM
I'm just curious...but why is it cheaper to outsource E175s to a regional than keep them in house and make them 190s?


Because of tax laws and how the main entity can use those to their benefit while not harming their stock price.

Ekpt40
08-12-2014, 06:25 AM
Its not just seat numbers, scope has to have a distance limit too.
I flew RJs from Houston to Toronto. That should be a mainline flight.

The airline wants to appear to provide seamless service via the RJ lift.
They perpetuate that illusion via same livery, uniforms etc. The flying public can't tell the difference. If that livery changes the public may create the shift needed to restore ML flying. Or, if the economics work, the ML airlines may absorb the RJs.

I think the economics are a red herring. Some city pairs I have seen on RJs are very expensive. That money goes to the ML, not the Regional. If the economics are not worthwhile, why do ML claim the need?

FreighterGuyNow
08-12-2014, 08:24 AM
Furthermore, I literally saw/overheard two Mesa pilots - and I can't make this *hit up - giving each other high fives while talking about 1.5 year upgrade on the E-Jet.

GHOST

55 % of the New American departures are RJs. Plug that into 13,000 pilots.

DashDriverYV
08-12-2014, 08:51 AM
Well, off the top of my head I'd have to say the 175 at Express doesn't have a 30 year F/A, mechanic or agents working them. Plus it's not just the hourly rate, have to add in retirement and benefits. Not sure how they compare. But mostly I'd say if they were on the main line then Doug couldn't play all the regional groups against one another.

I doubt we will ever see the 175 here. Heck, we can't even fill 190 captain vacancies!y

Throw in there mainline rampers, gate agents and others if the b scale "regional" model goes away. Management won't put those planes here willingly, and the only hand we have to force them is a shortage of pilots and the rla that ties our hands.

Saabs
08-14-2014, 03:59 PM
Well according to the email today they asked for delta pay. If that's the case I hope they have another pay parity clause as delta is due for a new contract in 2015. Looks like group I pay got sold out, again. 190 will be a revolving training door again.

PurpleTurtle
08-14-2014, 04:11 PM
Well according to the email today they asked for delta pay. If that's the case I hope they have another pay parity clause as delta is due for a new contract in 2015. Looks like group I pay got sold out, again. 190 will be a revolving training door again.

First year pay proposal was like a 50% increase.

LIOG41
08-14-2014, 04:14 PM
Well according to the email today they asked for delta pay. If that's the case I hope they have another pay parity clause as delta is due for a new contract in 2015. Looks like group I pay got sold out, again. 190 will be a revolving training door again.

Unless they're on their way out...which they should be.

tsquare
08-14-2014, 04:23 PM
Ok, let's assume all that is true...

Still, compare Southwest pay rates to the above examples and explain why they still make a profit every quarter...

SWA is a domestic airline, no matter how much they tout they are an international one. The costs of doing business in international theaters, especially multiple real ones like Europe, Asia and South America increase costs way more rapidly than simply flying to SJU and other Caribbean areas. That and their fleet model is simple. The thing about that is that it is limiting too. I don't think AAL has anything to worry about in SA from SWA competition, because with the scope clause they have, there is zero chance they will be able to extract any revenue from that theater. In other words, what you are asking is an apples to bowling balls comparison

Saabs
08-14-2014, 05:04 PM
Unless they're on their way out...which they should be.

Explain further

Saabs
08-14-2014, 05:05 PM
First year pay proposal was like a 50% increase.

That's great and all - but a 16 % raise on group 1 rates doesn't even get us close to delta. And if u do the math something doesn't add up with the 1st year pay versus the years 2+ and the 16%. Apa and usapa need to elaborate with full charts not just year 12.

JKflight
08-14-2014, 05:31 PM
That's great and all - but a 16 % raise on group 1 rates doesn't even get us close to delta. And if u do the math something doesn't add up with the 1st year pay versus the years 2+ and the 16%. Apa and usapa need to elaborate with full charts not just year 12.

Yeah, would be nice to elaborate what they are requesting for all of us with less than 12 years on property...

The Drizzle
08-14-2014, 05:33 PM
Yeah, would be nice to elaborate what they are requesting for all of us with less than 12 years on property...

We have pilots with less than 12 years on property?

#justAirwaysthings

PRS Guitars
08-14-2014, 06:36 PM
Yeah, would be nice to elaborate what they are requesting for all of us with less than 12 years on property...
That would be nice, but in the meantime you can extrapolate the info in a minute or so on your own using DAL 2014 numbers and their 3% 2015 raise. Then using the requested 3.5% requested raise after that.

Jan 2014 hire

AB
2015 year 2 $107
2016 Year 3 $130
2017 year 4 $138
2018 year 5 $143

Don't know how the new Delta contract would effect this. Seems like if we got this and they get a better contract, we'd be tied to these numbers and not reap the benefits of parity in 2016. But I'm pretty new at this and not sure how it works.

bassslayer
08-14-2014, 06:39 PM
Yeah, would be nice to elaborate what they are requesting for all of us with less than 12 years on property...

They are requesting Deltas 2015 pay scale. Look at the current Delta rates and you'll have your answer for your particular LOS and group of aircraft. I believe they are using the 12 year which is the current top of scale merely as an example, due to the fact that the vast majority of pilots at both airlines are topped out.

Saabs
08-14-2014, 07:15 PM
They are requesting Deltas 2015 pay scale. Look at the current Delta rates and you'll have your answer for your particular LOS and group of aircraft. I believe they are using the 12 year which is the current top of scale merely as an example, due to the fact that the vast majority of pilots at both airlines are topped out.
But not group 1 which is a percentage raise - and many tears that adds up less to their 1st year pay rate proposal. Dusgusting.

inline five
08-14-2014, 07:39 PM
Ok, let's assume all that is true...

Still, compare Southwest pay rates to the above examples and explain why they still make a profit every quarter...
SWA has excellent management and pilots + F/As who cooperate with each other and get along. How many guys have you seen burn hundreds of $$ in fuel on one leg just to arrive 3 mins early ("Doug's fuel")? Happens pretty much every trip I fly. Just one example.

Management doesn't burn money doing stupid things with it like burn a billion on buying back stock at its peak. They are frugal. They don't gouge customers and have relaxed policies that customers like (change dates, baggage). The list goes on.

newAA is making money because they've got a cornered audience, not because they are actually good at making money. Over time expect market share to continue to be eroded if they continue down this path.

inline five
08-14-2014, 07:45 PM
Well according to the email today they asked for delta pay. If that's the case I hope they have another pay parity clause as delta is due for a new contract in 2015. Looks like group I pay got sold out, again. 190 will be a revolving training door again.

Story I heard is management wants the pay parity now because they know it will be even more when DAL gets their new contract. So the parity review would take the place of the one in 2016, unless the union puts it back in there. But highly doubtful, otherwise why would the company agree to a parity review a year before it had to?

Things that make you go hmmm...

Also, pay rates aren't everything. Tons of holes in the soft pay section. I would gladly take less $/hr over >QOL. I bet most would. How about that reserve transition language? Oh yeah, not yet. Just a few more months...there are lots of things we have written on paper but aren't implemented. We are getting a little ahead of ourselves here.

Surprise
08-14-2014, 07:54 PM
newAA is making money because they've got a cornered audience, not because they are actually good at making money. Over time expect market share to continue to be eroded if they continue down this path.

A couple of thoughts:

They claim to be winning market share, at least in terms of high value customers and corporate accounts, which I believe is what really pays the bills.

A lot of the newAA management is legacy US management. And didn't US make money during the Great Recession for the most part? Granted, they had pilots working for next to nothing, but they still do some smart things.

Like tsquare said above, costs certainly increase operating in different theaters, but there's sure a lot revenue to be had. Especially in South America. And international cargo. Point being, I still think we could be compensated on a SWA level, because while they may have lower domestic costs, they can't do a lot of the things the global carriers can.

Surprise
08-14-2014, 07:57 PM
I should add that I agree that SWA is well-run. The broader point is that if our management truly wants to be the best, they shouldn't balk at paying us the best.

inline five
08-14-2014, 08:07 PM
I should add that I agree that SWA is well-run. The broader point is that if our management truly wants to be the best, they shouldn't balk at paying us the best.

Honest question (and no I'm not management), do you feel the pilots deserve to be compensated the best? Why? Except for OE I've single engine taxi'd only once. The majority operate in selected speed at higher speeds than planned, and not one has ever cared about step climbing.

I know I haven't flown with everyone, but the vast, vast majority of guys have been beat down so much they literally could give a *******. Remember back in the fuel crisis days? They were burning three engines everywhere they went. Cutting off their nose to spite their face. We carry around so much extra gas compared to how ragged Airways is running their commuter partners, guys don't care at all.

I have no idea what the culture is like at AA. Hopefully it's not nearly as apathetic as it is here. I remember being up front in a TWA cockpit going to Hawaii and the one thing that stuck out was that they knew to the dollar how much fuel they were burning, and were concerned about making it count.

I really like the people here, but the lack of caring about the future makes me cringe. Maybe I just happen to fly with the bitter guys, but practically everyone states they could care less what happens to the place, they have no intention of going above and beyond. They've just been beat down that much, even after getting that large pay raise.

PurpleTurtle
08-14-2014, 09:58 PM
Honest question (and no I'm not management), do you feel the pilots deserve to be compensated the best? Why? Except for OE I've single engine taxi'd only once. The majority operate in selected speed at higher speeds than planned, and not one has ever cared about step climbing.

I know I haven't flown with everyone, but the vast, vast majority of guys have been beat down so much they literally could give a *******. Remember back in the fuel crisis days? They were burning three engines everywhere they went. Cutting off their nose to spite their face. We carry around so much extra gas compared to how ragged Airways is running their commuter partners, guys don't care at all.



I have no idea what the culture is like at AA. Hopefully it's not nearly as apathetic as it is here. I remember being up front in a TWA cockpit going to Hawaii and the one thing that stuck out was that they knew to the dollar how much fuel they were burning, and were concerned about making it count.

I really like the people here, but the lack of caring about the future makes me cringe. Maybe I just happen to fly with the bitter guys, but practically everyone states they could care less what happens to the place, they have no intention of going above and beyond. They've just been beat down that much, even after getting that large pay raise.

I don't know who you are flying with but ever since the new pay rates kicked in with the new merger I find almost everyone is doing their part to save fuel.. and many of them are standing in the door to smile and say good bye to pax as they deplane.

Guys are evening landing 321s flaps 3 on 23 at CLT. :D

bassslayer
08-15-2014, 05:05 AM
Honest question (and no I'm not management), do you feel the pilots deserve to be compensated the best? Why? Except for OE I've single engine taxi'd only once. The majority operate in selected speed at higher speeds than planned, and not one has ever cared about step climbing.

I know I haven't flown with everyone, but the vast, vast majority of guys have been beat down so much they literally could give a *******. Remember back in the fuel crisis days? They were burning three engines everywhere they went. Cutting off their nose to spite their face. We carry around so much extra gas compared to how ragged Airways is running their commuter partners, guys don't care at all.

I have no idea what the culture is like at AA. Hopefully it's not nearly as apathetic as it is here. I remember being up front in a TWA cockpit going to Hawaii and the one thing that stuck out was that they knew to the dollar how much fuel they were burning, and were concerned about making it count.

I really like the people here, but the lack of caring about the future makes me cringe. Maybe I just happen to fly with the bitter guys, but practically everyone states they could care less what happens to the place, they have no intention of going above and beyond. They've just been beat down that much, even after getting that large pay raise.

I don't see this at all

inline five
08-15-2014, 05:43 AM
Are you guys CLT based by chance? With a much higher % of ex-Piedmont guys there, it wouldn't surprise me that more guys care about the job down there. I completely understand where they are coming from, after decades of bad news, broken promises, and take-backs people will do exactly what is required and nothing more. It's human nature. In 5 years this is going to be a completely different airline as far as demographics.

Surprise
08-15-2014, 06:14 AM
Honest question (and no I'm not management), do you feel the pilots deserve to be compensated the best? Why?

I know that I do my job, but I've only been here a few months so I can't say whether we "deserve" it or not. But that doesn't matter, because you don't get what you deserve, you get what you negotiate. And if management truly wants to be the best, well, let them prove it.

kingairip
08-15-2014, 06:27 AM
SWA has excellent management and pilots + F/As who cooperate with each other and get along. How many guys have you seen burn hundreds of $$ in fuel on one leg just to arrive 3 mins early ("Doug's fuel")? Happens pretty much every trip I fly. Just one example.


SWA pilots fly faster than anyone in the industry. They're motivated to do so by the way they're paid. Gonna need a better example!

aa73
08-15-2014, 06:58 AM
APA literally just capped themselves by asking for delta rates now. Delta is about to leapfrog everyone by a big amount with their next contract from what I'm hearing. So once again we will end up below everyone else. Why didn't APA ask for delta +10% for starters??? We continue to be fleeced with no end in sight.

PurpleTurtle
08-15-2014, 07:17 AM
APA literally just capped themselves by asking for delta rates now. Delta is about to leapfrog everyone by a big amount with their next contract from what I'm hearing. So once again we will end up below everyone else. Why didn't APA ask for delta +10% for starters??? We continue to be fleeced with no end in sight.

I agree that they should have made a proposal that was north of Delta current rates...

The negotiating proposals are "fun" but I am afraid just a show.... truthfully it appears we capped ourselves back when we agreed to take the JCBA to arbitration with no additional cost increases above the MTA, as outlines in the MOU we already ratified.

JKflight
08-15-2014, 07:22 AM
That would be nice, but in the meantime you can extrapolate the info in a minute or so on your own using DAL 2014 numbers and their 3% 2015 raise. Then using the requested 3.5% requested raise after that. Jan 2014 hire AB 2015 year 2 $107 2016 Year 3 $130 2017 year 4 $138 2018 year 5 $143 Don't know how the new Delta contract would effect this. Seems like if we got this and they get a better contract, we'd be tied to these numbers and not reap the benefits of parity in 2016. But I'm pretty new at this and not sure how it works.

But the 190 will pay the same year 1 and year 2 as of Jan 2015 by their math...

Saabs
08-15-2014, 08:33 AM
But the 190 will pay the same year 1 and year 2 as of Jan 2015 by their math...

Bingo. I'm on the bus but would bid the 190 in a heartbeat if we got delta group I pay.

R57 relay
08-15-2014, 11:56 AM
Honest question (and no I'm not management), do you feel the pilots deserve to be compensated the best? Why? Except for OE I've single engine taxi'd only once. The majority operate in selected speed at higher speeds than planned, and not one has ever cared about step climbing.

I know I haven't flown with everyone, but the vast, vast majority of guys have been beat down so much they literally could give a *******. Remember back in the fuel crisis days? They were burning three engines everywhere they went. Cutting off their nose to spite their face. We carry around so much extra gas compared to how ragged Airways is running their commuter partners, guys don't care at all.

I have no idea what the culture is like at AA. Hopefully it's not nearly as apathetic as it is here. I remember being up front in a TWA cockpit going to Hawaii and the one thing that stuck out was that they knew to the dollar how much fuel they were burning, and were concerned about making it count.

I really like the people here, but the lack of caring about the future makes me cringe. Maybe I just happen to fly with the bitter guys, but practically everyone states they could care less what happens to the place, they have no intention of going above and beyond. They've just been beat down that much, even after getting that large pay raise.

I think we deserve to be compensated as our peers are, but as our friend Doug would tell you "You don't get what you deserve, you get what you negotiate."

I sense that you post comes from frustrtation driven by a high work ethic. But I'd say that with human nature and our culture in this country, you have it backwards. The management "team" should inspire the workforce to be the best, not demand it and only compensate when it is.

Parker knows exactly what he is getting from this pilot group and is very pleased with it. Years ago in a crew news session a captain gave a pretty passionate speech about what we deserve and topped it off by telling Parker that he could get so much more out the employees if they would be more "fair." Paker told him that we have come so far down from where we were, contract wise, that we can never get back. His conclusion was that since we can't get back, that we will never be happy anyway, so no use in trying to buy it. So, they didn't and they accepted that unhappy people burn a little more fuel and don't try as hard, but with a well run machine, it doesn't matter as much and we cannot burn enough fuel to overcome the cost savings of LOA 93 type contracts. Guess what? History tends to prove he was right. The majority of us did a good job anyway out of personal pride and despite being the lowest paid pilots in the business, we produced great numbers for him, making him look like an airline genius. The rest is history.

I think the reality of who we are dealing with is just starting to sink in with some pilots. Paker is like the barker in the bow tie and straw hat, but guys like Hemmingway are playing the game with the shells and pea. Over and over again people listen to Parker while Hemmingway moves the shell around. They think they have it, the bang, "He got me!" They always ask for more than they need, undervalue what we give and overvalue what we get. They are very, very good at it.

I'm glad that the unions are asking for more, since the picture has changed(has it, or did they have a better view than we did?), but we have to be ready to accept where we are and what we agreed to. We need to learn from our mistakes and play the game better, even if the RLA and NMB tie one arm behind our backs.

I understand your frustration. Before my last checkout, mine was pretty high with captains that seemed to just be along for the ride. But I understood where they came from. We need to learn from that frustration. I sense that a lot of new guys I fly with really don't understand what happened to us along the way and really don't want to learn from it.

MastaPilot
08-15-2014, 12:00 PM
The payrates they are asking for are not that much at all. All they are basically asking for is parity in 2015 instead of 2016. The rates they are proposing (at top of scale) would only be about $5-10/hour more on Jan 2016 than what we are going to get anyway under the current MOU on Jan 2016. In fact, if Delta gets a new contract before 2016 and got more than about an 8% raise in 2016, we would be getting paid less (in 2016) under this proposal than we would if we stayed with the MOU payrates.

Although, the other proposed items are definetly worth it, such as profit sharing, min day pay, etc. Because the proposed payrates are practically insignificant, the company may just go for that, but the other stuff they may balk at.

Hueypilot
08-16-2014, 01:35 PM
I've heard rumors the company is likely to give us the new proposed pay, because it limits their liability and kicks the true "Delta pay parity" can down the road. Some of the other extras, like profit sharing, are much more iffy.

CaptainBigWood
08-17-2014, 11:36 AM
After working for Parker for 10 years I do not expect the parity review rates in 2016 per MOU to be paid without a great amount of union solidarity. Enjoy the fantasy of Delta rates, I hope I am wrong.

PurpleTurtle
08-17-2014, 12:04 PM
After working for Parker for 10 years I do not expect the parity review rates in 2016 per MOU to be paid without a great amount of union solidarity. Enjoy the fantasy of Delta rates, I hope I am wrong.

I am afraid we will never know if union solidarity would have helped, because I don't expect we will ever have it. I hope I am wrong. Oh, never mind. We won't. :)

PropPiedmont
08-17-2014, 02:45 PM
SWA pilots fly faster than anyone in the industry. They're motivated to do so by the way they're paid. Gonna need a better example!

Where'd you get this info. 261 kt descents aren't fast in my book.

kingairip
08-17-2014, 04:17 PM
Where'd you get this info. 261 kt descents aren't fast in my book.

Most in the industry know this. They get paid by the trip. Just talked to a guy on the jumpseat yesterday about how SWA guys got caught accelerating between points on a STAR.

PropPiedmont
08-17-2014, 05:49 PM
Most in the industry know this. They get paid by the trip. Just talked to a guy on the jumpseat yesterday about how SWA guys got caught accelerating between points on a STAR.

We get paid for overflying scheduled block times. Only real incentive to fly fast would be to lower block/FDP time inorder to pick up additional flying on days off.

texaspilot76
08-29-2014, 09:19 AM
Any updates on the JCBA?

algflyr
08-29-2014, 09:49 AM
Any updates on the JCBA?

The APA said they will put out an update today re-capping the week long special meeting they just had dealing with the JCBA. Haven't seen anything yet, and it probably won't have much new information anyway, as almost the entire meeting was in closed session...

From their update yesterday: "The APA board of directors adjourned its special meeting mid-afternoon today. We will recap highlights of this week's meeting in tomorrow's APA News Digest, including resolutions that the board voted to approve."

cactiboss
08-29-2014, 09:52 AM
Rumor is Doug offered DAL wages now instead of 2016 but with a big catch, significant Scope concessions on our part.

Hueypilot
08-29-2014, 10:11 AM
Nope. If that's his offer, stick with the current MOU, AND in that case Doug will wind up paying what DAL is making with their new contract in 2016. Current DAL pay rates now and a pay parity review in 2019 is a good deal. If he's not willing to play ball with the labor groups, I think a lot of pilots will avoid AA and go work for DAL and UAL. I already know some in the military that have no intention of applying to AA unless things get better.

Al Czervik
08-29-2014, 10:53 AM
Delta contract/delta scope

Andrew_VT
08-29-2014, 12:55 PM
Rumor is Doug offered DAL wages now instead of 2016 but with a big catch, significant Scope concessions on our part.

Damn, the MOU already increased the allowable number of 76 seat jets by a third. That was too much as it is.

The Drizzle
08-29-2014, 04:04 PM
Rumor is Doug offered DAL wages now instead of 2016 but with a big catch, significant Scope concessions on our part.

http://i.imgur.com/Zo2xE.gif

inline five
08-29-2014, 06:31 PM
I really, really hope the APA stops all talk about increasing scope even further. The MOU already saw a huge expansion in RJs. It's amazing to me that pilots think it's OK for 40% of our flying to be outsourced, but not surprising that they trade it for $$.

Half the pilot group will retire in 10 years, they could care less about outsourcing as long as they get their big raises. That is the danger here -- all you need to do is convince a few more folks to vote yes and presto more flying gone.

Diesel1030
08-29-2014, 08:41 PM
I really, really hope the APA stops all talk about increasing scope even further. The MOU already saw a huge expansion in RJs. It's amazing to me that pilots think it's OK for 40% of our flying to be outsourced, but not surprising that they trade it for $$.

Half the pilot group will retire in 10 years, they could care less about outsourcing as long as they get their big raises. That is the danger here -- all you need to do is convince a few more folks to vote yes and presto more flying gone.

This needs to be DOA.. At this point we need to wait it out before giving anything else up. I've heard crazy rumors about airport stby etc being proposed.. No thanks

Saabs
08-30-2014, 03:34 AM
Nope. If that's his offer, stick with the current MOU, AND in that case Doug will wind up paying what DAL is making with their new contract in 2016. Current DAL pay rates now and a pay parity review in 2019 is a good deal. If he's not willing to play ball with the labor groups, I think a lot of pilots will avoid AA and go work for DAL and UAL. I already know some in the military that have no intention of applying to AA unless things get better.

We don't know that - for all we know the pay parity only applies to the current Delta and united contracts. I've emailed the NAC asking this exact question and have gotten no response. The devil Is in the details.

PurpleTurtle
08-30-2014, 06:20 AM
... I already know some in the military that have no intention of applying to AA unless things get better.


There are plenty of regional pilots that are happy to be senior to those military pilots. :)

No matter, an airline career is all luck and timing in the end... if you bother to put in an app. :D

spaaks
08-30-2014, 02:30 PM
Rumor is Doug offered DAL wages now instead of 2016 but with a big catch, significant Scope concessions on our part.

please DON'T do it!!!! All regional pilots support you in taking back scope and flying

sailingfun
08-31-2014, 05:34 AM
please DON'T do it!!!! All regional pilots support you in taking back scope and flying

Really? RJDC?

The Drizzle
08-31-2014, 06:30 AM
Really? RJDC?

Is that still a thing? In my 8 years as an RJ pilot, I had no knowledge of what that is/was. I was non-ALPA though.

ghilis101
08-31-2014, 08:08 AM
I think we deserve to be compensated as our peers are, but as our friend Doug would tell you "You don't get what you deserve, you get what you negotiate."

I sense that you post comes from frustrtation driven by a high work ethic. But I'd say that with human nature and our culture in this country, you have it backwards. The management "team" should inspire the workforce to be the best, not demand it and only compensate when it is.

Parker knows exactly what he is getting from this pilot group and is very pleased with it. Years ago in a crew news session a captain gave a pretty passionate speech about what we deserve and topped it off by telling Parker that he could get so much more out the employees if they would be more "fair." Paker told him that we have come so far down from where we were, contract wise, that we can never get back. His conclusion was that since we can't get back, that we will never be happy anyway, so no use in trying to buy it. So, they didn't and they accepted that unhappy people burn a little more fuel and don't try as hard, but with a well run machine, it doesn't matter as much and we cannot burn enough fuel to overcome the cost savings of LOA 93 type contracts. Guess what? History tends to prove he was right. The majority of us did a good job anyway out of personal pride and despite being the lowest paid pilots in the business, we produced great numbers for him, making him look like an airline genius. The rest is history.

I think the reality of who we are dealing with is just starting to sink in with some pilots. Paker is like the barker in the bow tie and straw hat, but guys like Hemmingway are playing the game with the shells and pea. Over and over again people listen to Parker while Hemmingway moves the shell around. They think they have it, the bang, "He got me!" They always ask for more than they need, undervalue what we give and overvalue what we get. They are very, very good at it.

I'm glad that the unions are asking for more, since the picture has changed(has it, or did they have a better view than we did?), but we have to be ready to accept where we are and what we agreed to. We need to learn from our mistakes and play the game better, even if the RLA and NMB tie one arm behind our backs.

I understand your frustration. Before my last checkout, mine was pretty high with captains that seemed to just be along for the ride. But I understood where they came from. We need to learn from that frustration. I sense that a lot of new guys I fly with really don't understand what happened to us along the way and really don't want to learn from it.

This is an outstanding post. The incoming generation of pilots is not going to roll over. Management has taken advantage of the misfortune of the aging pilot group that has to work harder to recoup money lost in retirement. New pilots who are coming under the current system are in a different situation. They're not stuck where they're at more are they going to feel like this is the best they can do. We take pride in what we do, and we know what we're worth. I see pay rates being restored to an acceptable level, whatever everyone collectively agrees on, but I also want to see an equal amount of attention given to work rules.

lear700pilot
09-01-2014, 11:32 AM
This is an outstanding post. The incoming generation of pilots is not going to roll over. Management has taken advantage of the misfortune of the aging pilot group that has to work harder to recoup money lost in retirement. New pilots who are coming under the current system are in a different situation. They're not stuck where they're at more are they going to feel like this is the best they can do. We take pride in what we do, and we know what we're worth. I see pay rates being restored to an acceptable level, whatever everyone collectively agrees on, but I also want to see an equal amount of attention given to work rules.

Ghilis!

What's up!? I'm still waiting on an invite. I hope all is well for you at the new place.

Being a regional guy though, I still see guys willing to sell their soul here for a major job. I even asked a few pilots a question just to see what they would say. The question was: If DL, UAL, AA told you they would give you a job tomorrow without an interview and the only catch is you have to pay 25k, would you do it? Unfortunately majority said "yes." This really bothers me to know this. We are our own worst enemy. I will not do that because I feel personally that is wrong for us to keep "paying to play". Some would argue you will make that difference up shortly in the term of your career - especially getting on in the front end of th wave. The problem is management would eat that up! They would then go and whipsaw current pilots and say "these new hires are doing this!"

So here's a question to all the guys wanting to go to a major reading this if xyz major came to you and said "you can start tomorrow, no interview required! Just pay us 25k." Would you do it?

Waggs
09-01-2014, 12:18 PM
Ghilis!

What's up!? I'm still waiting on an invite. I hope all is well for you at the new place.

Being a regional guy though, I still see guys willing to sell their soul here for a major job. I even asked a few pilots a question just to see what they would say. The question was: If DL, UAL, AA told you they would give you a job tomorrow without an interview and the only catch is you have to pay 25k, would you do it? Unfortunately majority said "yes." This really bothers me to know this. We are our own worst enemy. I will not do that because I feel personally that is wrong for us to keep "paying to play". Some would argue you will make that difference up shortly in the term of your career - especially getting on in the front end of th wave. The problem is management would eat that up! They would then go and whipsaw current pilots and say "these new hires are doing this!"

So here's a question to all the guys wanting to go to a major reading this if xyz major came to you and said "you can start tomorrow, no interview required! Just pay us 25k." Would you do it?

Southwest.

They require you (most folks) to pay 10k and still require an interview. It's not that crazy to think people would pay 25k for a job at a legacy. 5 years from now when regional guys are getting hired at the rate military people are now might be a different story…hopefully.

lear700pilot
09-01-2014, 12:45 PM
Southwest.

They require you (most folks) to pay 10k and still require an interview. It's not that crazy to think people would pay 25k for a job at a legacy. 5 years from now when regional guys are getting hired at the rate military people are now might be a different story…hopefully.

Good point. I even thought about southwest after I posted this. It's essentially the same thing. Just less amount. The regionals required pay for training many years ago - fortunately was quite some time before I was hired they stopped doing that. It's better here since then without having to pay for it.

Fortunately, like you mentioned, in five years the majors will most likely need applicants so much it won't even matter. Who knows maybe they will eventually have to provide bonuses and perks to attract people. I think by then SWA won't be able to even think of requiring one to pay for it.

Hueypilot
09-01-2014, 01:29 PM
There are plenty of regional pilots that are happy to be senior to those military pilots. :)


And you're right to say that. Just making an observation that for many senior military pilots, they have other options they can consider (i.e., stay in the military, get a full-time Reserve/Guard job, fly corporate and use their mil retirement to boost their standard of living, etc). For some that I know, they will sit tight where they are until Delta or whatever carrier they want to work for calls...

Hueypilot
09-01-2014, 01:37 PM
Southwest.

They require you (most folks) to pay 10k and still require an interview. It's not that crazy to think people would pay 25k for a job at a legacy. 5 years from now when regional guys are getting hired at the rate military people are now might be a different story…hopefully.

I knew a young kid who was just fresh out of college recently with an aviation degree. He told me he had just been offered a job flying Beech 1900s with a certain regional that doesn't pay much at all and I told him he should continue to flight instruct until something better comes along...but he was just so happy to fly a "turbine aircraft" that he was willing to go along with the training contract and $15k annual pay. I'm into my 40s now and although I still love flying and love what I do, I'm very aware that it requires money to raise a family and have a decent standard of living, and I'm not about to sell myself out just to fly an airplane. But I can remember being 22 and flying helicopters for the Army Guard...back then we had a status called "points no pay", where you got retirement points but no pay, and I was seriously looking into doing that just to get more flight time. Youth brings with it great ambition, but it also brings nativity and stupidity.

JumpersAway79
09-02-2014, 05:33 AM
I knew a young kid who was just fresh out of college recently with an aviation degree. He told me he had just been offered a job flying Beech 1900s with a certain regional that doesn't pay much at all and I told him he should continue to flight instruct until something better comes along...but he was just so happy to fly a "turbine aircraft" that he was willing to go along with the training contract and $15k annual pay. I'm into my 40s now and although I still love flying and love what I do, I'm very aware that it requires money to raise a family and have a decent standard of living, and I'm not about to sell myself out just to fly an airplane. But I can remember being 22 and flying helicopters for the Army Guard...back then we had a status called "points no pay", where you got retirement points but no pay, and I was seriously looking into doing that just to get more flight time. Youth brings with it great ambition, but it also brings nativity and stupidity.

Huey- I agree with your point, on practicality. However, I disagree with your point based on reality. The gentleman in question will be flight instructing 20 years from now, if he abides by the advice you provided, as I seriously don't see regional wages increasing to a level more suitable to a "family wage". The reality is that if wages increase, the regionals will simply cease to exist. Corporate flying will be a shrinking entity as well, I believe. The reality is that he needs the turbine experience to get ahead of other candidates, if he wants to further his career and make it to the "bigs". The longer he waits, the bigger the wound from a self inflicted gunshot to the foot..................

Name User
09-02-2014, 06:17 AM
Done right that 22 year old might be at a legacy by age 25. The civvie world was normally a shortcut to the "big leagues" vs. the military. 9/11, age 65, and the financial crisis really screwed a lot of guys. Instead of hitting a legacy in my mid-20's I ended up getting on in my early 30's. 7+ years of lost CA wages hurts...a lot.

I would much rather have a guy who wants to be at the company regardless of background, over some disgruntled guy settling for what they perceive is a 3rd rate carrier. I highly doubt there is zero difference in re-training/OE requirements from a civ vs. mil standpoint based on my experience flying with both types while at a regional.

Samuelson
09-02-2014, 07:52 AM
... Youth brings with it great ambition, but it also brings nativity and stupidity.
In my experience, I have found that NATIVITY brings YOUTH.

DCA A321 FO
09-02-2014, 09:24 AM
Do you guys mean naivety?

CanoePilot
09-02-2014, 09:49 AM
Do you guys mean naivety?

In my experience, I have found that NATIVITY brings YOUTH.

but it also brings nativity and stupidity.

http://fellowshipofminds.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/nativity-scene1.jpg

Hueypilot
09-02-2014, 10:12 AM
Well played...you sir get the prize for most sarcastic post of the day!

Capt Hindsight
09-02-2014, 10:17 AM
Nyuk. Nice one.