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gzsg
08-15-2014, 08:03 AM
Pilot Contract Talks in 2015 to Come Amid Robust Airline Profits

By Justin Bachman August 13, 2014
With U.S. airlines awash in cash these days, one of the big questions in the industry has become how much of that wealth will pilots seek next year when contracts at several carriers come up for renegotiation.



Contracts at four large airlines—Delta Air Lines (DAL), Hawaiian (HA), Spirit (SAVE), and Jazz Aviation, a regional operator for Air Canada—are up for talks in 2015, covering nearly 15,000 pilots represented by the Air Line Pilots Association, the largest pilots union in North America. JetBlue Airways’ (JBLU) 2,500 pilots are also hoping to secure their first contract next year, after voting this spring to join ALPA.


U.S. carriers are producing enormous profits after years of consolidation. In the most recent quarter, the six largest U.S. carriers collectively earned $3.97 billion, with American, Southwest, Alaska Airlines (ALK), and JetBlue all reporting record net income for the period. U.S. carriers lost almost $60 billion from 2000 to 2009.


“This is really a good story,” ALPA President Lee Moak said Tuesday during a visit to Bloomberg Businessweek in New York, part of a quick tour to assure Wall Street analysts that ALPA’s contract demands won’t prove onerous to airlines. “I almost can’t stand it, it’s so good.”


Shareholders have started to realize returns in the form of dividends and stock buybacks. Thanks to the profits, pilots now see themselves as collaborators with management—they increasingly lobby alongside airline executives in Washington. That, says Moak, deepens the working relationships. “All of a sudden, you find yourself on the same side of 95 percent of the issues,” he says.


Another boost has come from profit-sharing schemes adopted by the airlines as a way of rewarding employees when times are good—and the deals carry no commitments should profit shrink. In February, Delta paid employees, including its 11,900 pilots, a record $506 million in profit sharing, equal to about 8 percent of annual salaries. The airline forecasts that amount to increase next year, given higher profit this year.


Southwest expects to pay out $228 million to workers this year in profit shares, nearly double the amount from 2013. United paid $190 million in February tied to its income last year. (Delta and United make the payments on Valentine’s Day.) Several airlines also pay workers monthly incentives for meeting performance targets, such as more on-time arrivals and improvements on the rate of mishandled bags. United paid employees an extra $125 for meeting on-time arrival and departure goals in July. Delta says it paid nearly $92 million last year in similar incentives. “The employees are now coupled to the airlines,” says Moak, a Delta captain who is stepping down at year’s end after four years as president.
Of course, all the cash an airline generates can go to shareholders or employees, and that basic dynamic is likely to play out in the 2015 contract negotiations—especially at Delta and Spirit, both industry leaders when it comes to superior financial returns. Moak contends that ALPA pilots at the larger carriers enjoy what he calls “mature, good contracts” already. Radical overhauls aren’t in the cards, he says.


Most of the contract talks are likely to center on basic compensation—hourly pay rates and how much carriers pay into pilots’ retirement plans. “There will be a business discussion of pay as it relates to revenue,” Moak says. “You can argue about $2 or $2.05, and that matters to the crew member,” but “you’re working on the margins” on the new contracts, he says.


Airlines have been mum on what they’ll seek in the contract talks, despite some analyst queries on quarterly earnings calls. “We have a productive and proactive relationship with our pilots and ALPA, focused on winning in the marketplace and addressing our business challenges and opportunities together,” Delta spokeswoman Kate Modolo said in an e-mail. A Spirit spokesman, Paul Berry, declined to comment, as did a spokeswoman for Hawaiian, Alison Croyle.


R57 relay
08-15-2014, 12:06 PM
Not sure I understand your title.

PurpleTurtle
08-17-2014, 01:42 PM
Not sure I understand your title.
Perhaps it is a subtle way of trying to give ALPA some credit.

Indeed ALPA's pattern give away year after year may be the reason airline companies are finally profitable. :cool:


CaptainBigWood
08-18-2014, 02:51 AM
I like the title, I AGREE.

757HI
08-19-2014, 08:01 AM
Talk of any other union besides APA is, as Joey Tribiani would say, "a moo point...you know, the opinion of a cow?"

Big E 757
08-19-2014, 09:25 AM
Perhaps it is a subtle way of trying to give ALPA some credit.

Indeed ALPA's pattern give away year after year may be the reason airline companies are finally profitable. :cool:

As opposed to the huge gains you East guys made prior to the AA merger.

Flyby1206
08-19-2014, 09:28 AM
Just imagine if APA and SWAPA joined ALPA. We really could have a strong voice in the industry. But i know it is as likely as a national seniority list and all the other pipe dreams out there.

PurpleTurtle
08-19-2014, 10:07 AM
As opposed to the huge gains you East guys made prior to the AA merger.


I didn't criticize ALPA for failing to make gains. I criticized them for the billions they have given away, from all their carriers they "represent", and the irony that airlines are finally profitable. :cool:

Frisco727
08-19-2014, 03:05 PM
I didn't criticize ALPA for failing to make gains. I criticized them for the billions they have given away, from all their carriers they "represent", and the irony that airlines are finally profitable. :cool:

The US Airlines Pilots Association can't be criticized for the contract with US Airways. That's a very impressive transition agreement. Tell the industry how you accomplished such an achievement.

PurpleTurtle
08-19-2014, 04:19 PM
The US Airlines Pilots Association can't be criticized for the contract with US Airways. That's a very impressive transition agreement. Tell the industry how you accomplished such an achievement.


The benefits from upgrading, being awarded a wide body, or simply getting off of reserve are all achieved via DOH. USAPA can take no credit for perpetuating DOH. AOL members pay for all of that but ALPA gets all the credit for starting that rolling snowball.

757HI
08-19-2014, 05:54 PM
National unions don't get or give anything away.

Contracts are negotiated by the local NC and the horsepower (solidarity) it has behind it. It's that simple.

What a national can provide are resources; research, SME's etc.

Crappy local crappy contract.

Seaslap8
08-19-2014, 06:07 PM
As opposed to the huge gains you East guys made prior to the AA merger.

Hilarious...USAPA has been an outsized anchor on pay and working conditions since its inception, but finds time to bash ALPA? Priceless.

PurpleTurtle
08-19-2014, 08:01 PM
Hilarious...USAPA has been an outsized anchor on pay and working conditions since its inception, but finds time to bash ALPA? Priceless.

I would hate to interrupt your implicit assumption, but I am not aware of any USAPA communication bashing ALPA. :cool:

JumpersAway79
08-20-2014, 04:53 AM
I have absolutely non interest in being affiliated with ALPA in the future. This is not because of the USAirways East/West fiasco, but rather, due to what I just left at the regional level. A self serving national agenda, peppered with favoritism and stepchildren describes ALPA best. They are ineffective and greedy- glad to be far, far, far away.

GW258
08-24-2014, 06:28 AM
Hilarious...USAPA has been an outsized anchor on pay and working conditions since its inception, but finds time to bash ALPA? Priceless.

Do you know the role ALPA played in the final contracts of the pilots at the old U?

Do you know how they lost their retirement? Scope? Rigs?

No spin please, prove you really know what you are talking about.

Carl Spackler
08-24-2014, 06:34 AM
Hilarious...USAPA has been an outsized anchor on pay and working conditions since its inception, but finds time to bash ALPA? Priceless.


Do you know the role ALPA played in the final contracts of the pilots at the old U?

Do you know how they lost their retirement? Scope? Rigs?

No spin please, prove you really know what you are talking about.

He doesn't. Seaslap8 is a regular on the Delta threads and a rabid supporter of all things ALPA. He's an attack dog of anyone who strays off of the ALPA national message.

Carl

NERD
08-24-2014, 07:12 AM
Did your membership vote in those changes or did you not have membership ratification?


Do you know the role ALPA played in the final contracts of the pilots at the old U?

Do you know how they lost their retirement? Scope? Rigs?

No spin please, prove you really know what you are talking about.

PurpleTurtle
08-24-2014, 07:39 AM
Do you know the role ALPA played in the final contracts of the pilots at the old U?

Do you know how they lost their retirement? Scope? Rigs?

No spin please, prove you really know what you are talking about.

Do you mean the $1M signing bonus the ALPA lawyer received?
Or are you referring to the guy that became ALPA president after successfully leading the Continental scabs back into the fold of dues faithful?

GW258
08-25-2014, 02:07 PM
Did your membership vote in those changes or did you not have membership ratification?

Do you know what happened?

Just how informed are you? You been around for long?

Are you a U pilot or did you stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night?

tsquare
08-26-2014, 01:12 PM
I would hate to interrupt your implicit assumption, but I am not aware of any USAPA communication bashing ALPA. :cool:

Wouldn't that be the fact that they de-certified them? Seems like a pretty big bash to me...

tsquare
08-26-2014, 01:13 PM
He doesn't. Seaslap8 is a regular on the Delta threads and a rabid supporter of all things ALPA. He's an attack dog of anyone who strays off of the ALPA national message.

Carl


And Carl Spackler is a rabid basher of all things ALPA. Especially Delta ALPA.

I'd say it evens out.

If AAL wants to join ALPA, I am sure they will be welcomed with open arms and everybody's dues will go down. If they don't, that's fine too as I am sure ALPA will continue to sell them services. win/win either way.

Seaslap8
08-26-2014, 06:15 PM
Do you know the role ALPA played in the final contracts of the pilots at the old U?

Do you know how they lost their retirement? Scope? Rigs?

No spin please, prove you really know what you are talking about.

What I'm talking about is that fact that USAPA came into being as a direct result of the NIC (and their subsequent refusal to abide by what they agreed to abide by)....to infer that ALPA was de-certified for any reason other than the NIC is the real spin.

Seaslap8
08-26-2014, 06:22 PM
He doesn't. Seaslap8 is a regular on the Delta threads and a rabid supporter of all things ALPA. He's an attack dog of anyone who strays off of the ALPA national message.

Carl

Not really a "regular", (as evidenced by my number of posts)...more an occasional passerby...not an ALPA "attack dog", but I do find the DPA dumpster fire especially compelling entertainment.

R57 relay
08-27-2014, 04:24 AM
.to infer that ALPA was de-certified for any reason other than the NIC is the real spin.

Then you would be wrong, again. The Nicolau award was the tipping point, but the frustration with ALPA prior to that disaster provided for many of the USAPA-YES votes.

Seaslap8
08-27-2014, 06:11 PM
Then you would be wrong, again. The Nicolau award was the tipping point, but the frustration with ALPA prior to that disaster provided for many of the USAPA-YES votes.

I said " USAPA came into being as a direct result of the NIC"..."tipping point", "direct result"....however you wish to color it-absent the NIC, the feckless specter that is USAPA, would never have been hatched.

PurpleTurtle
08-27-2014, 08:33 PM
Then you would be wrong, again. The Nicolau award was the tipping point, but the frustration with ALPA prior to that disaster provided for many of the USAPA-YES votes.

The frustration of ALPA is exactly right. The history of ALPA failures was long and deep. It is unlikely ALPA would have been tossed if the SLI was ALPA's first screwup.

cactiboss
08-27-2014, 08:45 PM
East idiots, the whole world knows who u are and why usapa came to being, stop embarrassing yourselfs further. Encrustments.

PurpleTurtle
08-27-2014, 11:10 PM
East idiots, the whole world knows who u are and why usapa came to being, stop embarrassing yourselfs further. Encrustments.


:eek:..........:D

R57 relay
08-28-2014, 04:42 AM
East idiots, the whole world knows who u are and why usapa came to being, stop embarrassing yourselfs further. Encrustments.

It's comforting to know that somethings never change.

Being called a scab-frustrating. Being called an idiot by someone typing "yourselfs"-priceless.

R57 relay
08-28-2014, 04:44 AM
I said " USAPA came into being as a direct result of the NIC"..."tipping point", "direct result"....however you wish to color it-absent the NIC, the feckless specter that is USAPA, would never have been hatched.

So someone else edited your post and wrote this? "to infer that ALPA was de-certified for any reason other than the NIC is the real spin."

I was there and I KNOW that many of the guys that were not directly affected by the Nicolau award voted ALPA off the island.

Flyin the Flag
08-28-2014, 05:57 AM
Is it a lack of information or just doesn't fit their narrative. Why do some people insist USAPA was voted in only because of the NIC, when the top 500 pilots at airways weren't affected? Just asking. AWE didn't have wide body aircraft just narrow body aircraft so the top 500 pilots at airways went ahead of AWE pilots and weren't affected by the NIc. Approx 90 percent OF THE TOP 500 voted for USAPA.

johnso29
08-28-2014, 06:02 AM
I didn't criticize ALPA for failing to make gains. I criticized them for the billions they have given away, from all their carriers they "represent", and the irony that airlines are finally profitable. :cool:

You mean just like pilots who voted for USAPA? How many years did you work under those awful wages? :rolleyes:

R57 relay
08-28-2014, 06:08 AM
You mean just like pilots who voted for USAPA? How many years did you work under those awful wages? :rolleyes:

A bunch. It was a decision between awful wages and no Nicolau or just bad wages and the Nicolau.

Are you an AA pilot? If so, you will soon find out about the real Parker.

PurpleTurtle
08-28-2014, 06:27 AM
You mean just like pilots who voted for USAPA? How many years did you work under those awful wages? :rolleyes:

I did not criticize ALPA for failing to make gains.

I criticized ALAP for repeatedly giving things away, usually without a membership ratification.

ALPA has failed to hold the line against concessions at nearly every carrier they have represented across the industry. Perhaps it is an industry problem more than a problem that can be solved by a union. At any rate ALAP, as a "international" association has been ineffective at best and a parasite at worst when it comes to pay, work rules, QOL, and benefits. But they have a cool magazine.

You can love them if you want (or just hate them less than other unions). :D

PurpleTurtle
08-28-2014, 07:34 AM
I said " USAPA came into being as a direct result of the NIC"..."tipping point", "direct result"....however you wish to color it-absent the NIC, the feckless specter that is USAPA, would never have been hatched.

ALPA gambled when they decided to outsource seniority list integration to a third party rather than keep it in house to merge its dues paying members. ALPA has waffled on their policy multiple times based on majority sentiments of those in the seats of power.

When it comes to SLI, ALPA won some. They lost some. They learned from their experiences and have reduced their risk by amending their SLI policy once again. Good for them. AOL could learn something from ALPA about reducing risk.

drinksonme
08-28-2014, 10:01 AM
Deleted.....

Cujo665
08-28-2014, 12:25 PM
ALPA?

Uhhhh, yeah, no thanks.

cactiboss
08-28-2014, 04:23 PM
A bunch. It was a decision between awful wages and no Nicolau or just bad wages and the Nicolau.

Are you an AA pilot? If so, you will soon find out about the real Parker.

AGain with these lies? Usapa cost usairways pilots $600 million based on companies offer, the Kirby proposal. Now those are numbers from your own union founder, $600 million.

R57 relay
08-28-2014, 05:51 PM
AGain with these lies? Usapa cost usairways pilots $600 million based on companies offer, the Kirby proposal. Now those are numbers from your own union founder, $600 million.

How much did "Nic or nuthin" cost the west? How much is it still costing your junior pilots. But hey, you got your 767 captain bid back:rolleyes:, right?

The Kirby proposal sucked and everyone decided on status quo.



I think we all should have done better. Oh well.

cactiboss
08-28-2014, 06:21 PM
How much did "Nic or nuthin" cost the west? How much is it still costing your junior pilots. But hey, you got your 767 captain bid back:rolleyes:, right?

The Kirby proposal sucked and everyone decided on status quo.



I think we all should have done better. Oh well.

Well you won, congratulations on destroying the west pilots careers, something for you east scum to always be proud of.

Flyin the Flag
08-29-2014, 06:13 AM
Well you won, congratulations on destroying the west pilots careers, something for you east scum to always be proud of.

Nobody has won anything except Mr. Parker. Leader of the worlds largest airline. Thank you east and west, keep on fighting. If he can get the APA involved in this war he can make BILLIONS! The west Flight Attendants I flew with last week to Athens said her career has improved tremendously. She has a block of European destinations. Sure beats Hawaii, Hawaii, Hawaii. when she could hold it on the west. The west 330 f/o who was 80 from the bottom on the west, now on the east list with his west date of hire is enjoying his European flying making a lot more money. I feel sorry for the 1983 to 1984 pilots hired on the west that can hold 330 capt. flying small busses up and down 5 times a day. When they could be flying one leg a day. I know those EAST SCUM are ruining all the west employees careers. Look into the mirror my greedy friend. Hope to fly to with you to Europe, I will show you around. :D

cactiboss
08-29-2014, 09:38 AM
Nobody has won anything except Mr. Parker. Leader of the worlds largest airline. Thank you east and west, keep on fighting. If he can get the APA involved in this war he can make BILLIONS! The west Flight Attendants I flew with last week to Athens said her career has improved tremendously. She has a block of European destinations. Sure beats Hawaii, Hawaii, Hawaii. when she could hold it on the west. The west 330 f/o who was 80 from the bottom on the west, now on the east list with his west date of hire is enjoying his European flying making a lot more money. I feel sorry for the 1983 to 1984 pilots hired on the west that can hold 330 capt. flying small busses up and down 5 times a day. When they could be flying one leg a day. I know those EAST SCUM are ruining all the west employees careers. Look into the mirror my greedy friend. Hope to fly to with you to Europe, I will show you around. :D
Like I said, you won.

DCA A321 FO
08-29-2014, 10:12 AM
You mean just like pilots who voted for USAPA? How many years did you work under those awful wages? :rolleyes:


I bought 3 houses under those wages, what have u done? Where are you?

Actually, bought 5, sold 2, so down to 3.

It's not how much you make, it's what you do with it.

Hueypilot
08-29-2014, 10:15 AM
Let's just get this figured out. Pointing fingers won't get us anywhere but more of the same. We all have much to gain from getting an ISL...and hopefully this will be the last merger any of us have to go through.

DCA A321 FO
08-29-2014, 10:16 AM
Well you won, congratulations on destroying the west pilots careers, something for you east scum to always be proud of.

You have to have 2 [deleted] you whiny little [deleted].