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View Full Version : Why do we do things this way?


R57 relay
09-08-2014, 10:34 AM
This comes from thread creep on the pass thread.

With adopt and go, the US side is getting most of the changes. I get the theory, but some AA procedures just seem odd to us. I'm figuring that for some of them we just don't understand the logic, so I thought I'd ask.

Does anyone know why we use 10,000' AFL for the cabin chimes? I really don't get this one. It doesn't really correspond to anything. At US we used 10,000' MSL up and 10,000' MSL down, or 10 min prior to landing. Those correspond to steril cockpit, 250 knot speed and in the Airbus the non-magic fingers speed for landing lights. When we leave CLT for the west coast in the Super Slug(321), we hit 10,000' MSL where we are allowed to retract landing lights per the PH(dang, already forgot proper AA term), accelerate to 280 for the SID, then wait until we are nearly out of NC to get the next 750' for the bells. What am I missing? ;)

South America? Left over from when you guys used QFE?


DCA A321 FO
09-08-2014, 11:03 AM
Well for Mexico and South America the altitude verification calls/checks have been or will be taken out of the book. I think I will still do them.

Dolphinflyer
09-08-2014, 11:08 AM
South America? Left over from when you guys used QFE?

Probably South America issues trying to standardize across entire system. LPB is 3000' above 10K. BOG and UIO are close to 9K. Vail has it's own issues.

Not a big deal. They changed it not long ago. I try not to think too much over their nitnoy procedures. If we're in recurrent class together, please take questions privately to the instructor after class. In class just delays me from lunch and trying to figure out if it is a Tortilla soup day.

You should have been around when we flew QFE procedures in the states and QNH in South America.


EMBFlyer
09-08-2014, 11:33 AM
Why, for God's sake, as we approach an active runway at very busy airports are we having the Captain go heads down while he taxiing and the F/O is busy twiddling his/her thumbs. I'm very capable of saying "Flight Attendants, prepare for take off." If AA doesn't trust me with the proper timing, tell The Captain to tell the first officer (notice proper cAApitalization) to make the PA. In the very short time I've been with US Airways, there has been a HUGE push to avoid runway incursions. We've actually done a stellar job at doing so and even designed our procedures in a way that we do everything possible to mitigate them. Now, we're ok with throwing that out the window.

Surprise
09-08-2014, 11:59 AM
Seems to me the company has heard these concerns, but maintains the stance of "adopt and go" just to get things done. They can (and likely will) come back to look at everything again after SOC. I think I read somewhere that United tried to use "best practices" in every area of their merger and it just slowed everything down.

DCA A321 FO
09-08-2014, 12:04 PM
Yes, it's get it done as fast as possible, then maybe fix it, or not.

7576FO
09-08-2014, 01:18 PM
Up until a few years ago our vacation at AA ran May 1 until April 30. We would bid for vacation in January.
Now we run vacation March 1 thru Feb 28. In January we take your vacation bank and cash it out. SO your Feb vacation goes unpaid if you didn't plan accordingly.

Thank you USAir and JCBA for ending this misery! We will (at signing) go to Jan-Dec vacation like the rest of the free world and most communist countries.
Even on Kepler 28b the vacation runs solar annual orbit, not fiscal year.

7576FO
09-08-2014, 01:21 PM
Kepler solar system 55,000 LY's from Earth is in the goldilocks zone and has 200+ planets.
The goldilocks zone 285-395 ish days orbit and 18-30 hour planet revolution (not too hot, not too cold).
I would prefer a 285 day orbit as it would be a shorter work week.

7576FO
09-08-2014, 01:24 PM
We've adopted numerous USAir policies.
FO TO 1/4 mi. AA used to be 600RVR for FO
FO LDG chart vis. AA used to be 4000 or 3/4

PRM whatevah! Nevah done one.

aa73
09-08-2014, 01:29 PM
Why, for God's sake, as we approach an active runway at very busy airports are we having the Captain go heads down while he taxiing and the F/O is busy twiddling his/her thumbs. I'm very capable of saying "Flight Attendants, prepare for take off." If AA doesn't trust me with the proper timing, tell The Captain to tell the first officer (notice proper cAApitalization) to make the PA. In the very short time I've been with US Airways, there has been a HUGE push to avoid runway incursions. We've actually done a stellar job at doing so and even designed our procedures in a way that we do everything possible to mitigate them. Now, we're ok with throwing that out the window.

EMB,
I've been trying for years to get this PA changed to the FO. No go. AA is stuck on the CA making this PA because, by God, he or she is way more qualified than the FO to make it. (Eye roll please.) The exact verbiage I got from the flight dept when my suggestion made it there read something like this:
"We appreciate your suggestion but feel that the Captain has a much better awareness of when to seat the FAs and as such, we plan on keeping it this way."
That's what I got back - no joke. To which I responded, "then why not have the CA tell the FO to seat them?" "Because the FO has already way too much going on and we don't want the FO to go even more heads down at this point."
Great, so let's have the CA go heads down while taxiing! Unreal.
I believe AA is the only airline in the US that got an FAA exemption for the CA to be able to make this PA while taxiing. I know, makes zero sense.

The 10,000ft AFL chime reflects many of our SA high altitude ops.

There are many more little idiosyncrasies but AA runs a safe cockpit overall.

Keep em coming!

Sliceback
09-08-2014, 01:35 PM
New AA CA - "I never realized how busy I was as an FO until I upgraded."

He said life's pretty easy as CA - taxi the airplane and make one PA.

Sliceback
09-08-2014, 01:39 PM
AFL sterile chime is for standardization at non S.L. airports.

Diesel1030
09-08-2014, 01:55 PM
I just hope we get rid of the one PA we do..having" folks remain seated until the seatbelt sign is turned off ". When commuting I get a chuckle as people are half listening and think we are saying its ok to take their seat belts and start moving around the cabin.

7576FO
09-08-2014, 02:30 PM
emb,
i've been trying for years to get this pa changed to the fo. No go. Aa is stuck on the ca making this pa because, by god, he or she is way more qualified than the fo to make it. (eye roll please.) the exact verbiage i got from the flight dept when my suggestion made it there read something like this:
"we appreciate your suggestion but feel that the captain has a much better awareness of when to seat the fas and as such, we plan on keeping it this way."
that's what i got back - no joke. To which i responded, "then why not have the ca tell the fo to seat them?" "because the fo has already way too much going on and we don't want the fo to go even more heads down at this point."
great, so let's have the ca go heads down while taxiing! Unreal.
I believe aa is the only airline in the us that got an faa exemption for the ca to be able to make this pa while taxiing. I know, makes zero sense.

The 10,000ft afl chime reflects many of our sa high altitude ops.

There are many more little idiosyncrasies but aa runs a safe cockpit overall.

Keep em coming!

+1
7576fo

EMBFlyer
09-08-2014, 03:22 PM
I just hope we get rid of the one PA we do..having" folks remain seated until the seatbelt sign is turned off ". When commuting I get a chuckle as people are half listening and think we are saying its ok to take their seat belts and start moving around the cabin.

It hasn't show up in our revision through RC5, although I understand that RC7 and RC9 will be quite involved.

The changes on the Airbus have been minimal, hence why most Bus drivers are getting frustrated since we're doing it 90% the old way with little things interspersed at odd places.

I'm headed to the Big Boeing next month. I understand I'm in for quite a surprise!

80ktsClamp
09-08-2014, 03:28 PM
US still using 10,000 is a testament to them not flying to many high elevation airports. Takeoff out of the old UIO airport and you were at 10,000 feet before you even reached 700 AGL. :) Many other airports AA (and DL) fly to in central and south america are also very high elevation.

Most of the other AA stuff I've heard is quite strange- particularly checklist construction and methodology.

Just a deltoid passing through!

EMBFlyer
09-08-2014, 03:46 PM
US still using 10,000 is a testament to them not flying to many high elevation airports. Takeoff out of the old UIO airport and you were at 10,000 feet before you even reached 700 AGL. :) Many other airports AA (and DL) fly to in central and south america are also very high elevation.

Most of the other AA stuff I've heard is quite strange- particularly checklist construction and methodology.

Just a deltoid passing through!

No, but for places like DEN, most guys (everyone I ever flew with) went sterile at around 15,000 on the way in. Common sense.

80ktsClamp
09-08-2014, 04:19 PM
No, but for places like DEN, most guys (everyone I ever flew with) went sterile at around 15,000 on the way in. Common sense.
Yep, so codifying it to 10,000 AFE should be a common sense thing, too.

We have a 250 knot rule on our retract lights on fifi which is tied to acceleration above 250 altitude, not 10,000 AFE. If you forget, she is very obvious in reminding you with the rumble.

R57 relay
09-08-2014, 04:30 PM
US still using 10,000 is a testament to them not flying to many high elevation airports. Takeoff out of the old UIO airport and you were at 10,000 feet before you even reached 700 AGL. :) Many other airports AA (and DL) fly to in central and south america are also very high elevation.

Most of the other AA stuff I've heard is quite strange- particularly checklist construction and methodology.

Just a deltoid passing through!


No, it was a testament to logic. 10,000' msl is the end of sterile cockpit, 250 knot speed and, as you said, the place to retract fifi's lights. Our book always said at least 10 prior to landing on the way down. It now says 10,000 AFE or at least 6 min from landing. It's disjointed. If you took off from Death Valley would you give the chime prior to 10,000 msl? ;-)

Another reason for adopt and go-everybody thinks their way is the best.

450knotOffice
09-08-2014, 04:34 PM
It hasn't show up in our revision through RC5, although I understand that RC7 and RC9 will be quite involved.

The changes on the Airbus have been minimal, hence why most Bus drivers are getting frustrated since we're doing it 90% the old way with little things interspersed at odd places.

I'm headed to the Big Boeing next month. I understand I'm in for quite a surprise!

I just came OFF a Boeing, and was initially NOT impressed by the USAirways way of doing things on the Bus, which is what we adopted lock, stock, and barrel from your airline. Nobody over here was initially.

In other words, one becomes used to doing things a certain way. You guys are used to YOUR way, and we tend to be used to OUR way. When, all of a sudden, we are forced to completely change how we do and think about things, we tend to rebel and say "This is totally stupid!"

Ya know what? We've adapted. You folks will get used to the things you consider odd from your end.

Btw, I agree that the captain doing the before takeoff PA is just dumb, along with the useless arrival PA we FO's have to make.

:rolleyes:

Dolphinflyer
09-08-2014, 04:38 PM
No, but for places like DEN, most guys (everyone I ever flew with) went sterile at around 15,000 on the way in. Common sense.

"common sense" isn't practiced by all. SOP is needed, especially because of the South American airports. It is better than it was in the 1990's, but it is still a far different world. One high altitude destination in the US like Denver can be looked upon by the FAA and the Management hacks as something the line crews can figure out as they see fit.

"Stuff" comes up down there. For instance, if a 757 Instructor hammered the average domestic US airline pilot about knowing the limitation of 195 Kt (whatever the exact # was) max tire speed, most guys would think he's wasting training time. AA MIA 757 guys will realize the importance of it as we see 194 Kts on the ND GS readout on rotation at LPB and not to keeping rolling instead of flying.

R57 relay
09-08-2014, 04:44 PM
"common sense" isn't practiced by all. SOP is needed, especially because of the South American airports. It is better than it was in the 1990's, but it is still a far different world. One high altitude destination in the US like Denver can be looked upon by the FAA and the Management hacks as something the line crews can figure out as they see fit.

"Stuff" comes up down there. For instance, if a 757 Instructor hammered the average domestic US airline pilot about knowing the limitation of 195 Kt (whatever the exact # was) max tire speed, most guys would think he's wasting training time. AA MIA 757 guys will realize the importance of it as we see 194 Kts on the ND GS readout on rotation at LPB and not to keeping rolling instead of flying.

I'm pretty sure our book said "or at least 10 min." Not sure and now it's gone. Anyway, I didn't start this as a ****ing match, but to see the reasons behind things. I figured it was SA, still disagreeing with it. :-)

R57 relay
09-08-2014, 04:47 PM
I'm still trying to figure out how to comply with FM requirement to have runway turnoff lights on until 180 in a bus.

EMBFlyer
09-08-2014, 04:52 PM
"common sense" isn't practiced by all. SOP is needed, especially because of the South American airports. It is better than it was in the 1990's, but it is still a far different world. One high altitude destination in the US like Denver can be looked upon by the FAA and the Management hacks as something the line crews can figure out as they see fit.

"Stuff" comes up down there. For instance, if a 757 Instructor hammered the average domestic US airline pilot about knowing the limitation of 195 Kt (whatever the exact # was) max tire speed, most guys would think he's wasting training time. AA MIA 757 guys will realize the importance of it as we see 194 Kts on the ND GS readout on rotation at LPB and not to keeping rolling instead of flying.

Well, that makes perfect sense, especially with South America destinations. LPB sounds like a completely different animal!

Dolphinflyer
09-08-2014, 05:22 PM
Yup, an eye opener.
The 757 leaves into the air anywhere else. At LPB it rotates and just sits there rolling along on it's mains with it's nose in the air like an overload 727 at MEX at 90F.

Mandatory O2 mask on descent and approach is lotsa fun too ;)

80ktsClamp
09-08-2014, 05:34 PM
No, it was a testament to logic. 10,000' msl is the end of sterile cockpit, 250 knot speed and, as you said, the place to retract fifi's lights. Our book always said at least 10 prior to landing on the way down. It now says 10,000 AFE or at least 6 min from landing. It's disjointed. If you took off from Death Valley would you give the chime prior to 10,000 msl? ;-)

Another reason for adopt and go-everybody thinks their way is the best.

Let me know when you operate your next flight into Death Valley International. :D

If you take off from UIO at 9300 MSL, is sterile cockpit over before you complete your initial turn after takeoff? Logic! Most places down south have 250 knots within 30 miles, and in many places the terrain is so high that you're flying best angle/green dot until grid mora, so light retraction is a moo point.

Anyways- Agreed on adopt and go- worked well at DL, will work well at US/AA if they place nicely. The most critical aspect is "tabling" things to be addressed later. Eventually moving to a more logical combined system after the adopt and go phase is complete makes the final product a far more logical and friendly design. You'll see stuff you liked come back in a slightly tweaked (hopefully for the better) form, as well as some other things that you didn't realize existed.

It's making my head hurt thinking about all the revisions over the last 6 years...

EMBFlyer
09-08-2014, 05:37 PM
Yup, an eye opener.
The 757 leaves into the air anywhere else. At LPB it rotates and just sits there rolling along on it's mains with it's nose in the air like an overload 727 at MEX at 90F.

Mandatory O2 mask on descent and approach is lotsa fun too ;)

Do they have you on a bottle for the walk around, too?

I think I remember hearing stories of Eastern or Braniff trying to lay crews over down there. Didn't work too well, if I recall.

R57 relay
09-08-2014, 05:49 PM
Let me know when you operate your next flight into Death Valley International. :D

If you take off from UIO at 9300 MSL, is sterile cockpit over before you complete your initial turn after takeoff? Logic! Most places down south have 250 knots within 30 miles, and in many places the terrain is so high that you're flying best angle/green dot until grid mora, so light retraction is a moo point.

Anyways- Agreed on adopt and go- worked well at DL, will work well at US/AA if they place nicely. The most critical aspect is "tabling" things to be addressed later. Eventually moving to a more logical combined system after the adopt and go phase is complete makes the final product a far more logical and friendly design. You'll see stuff you liked come back in a slightly tweaked (hopefully for the better) form, as well as some other things that you didn't realize existed.

It's making my head hurt thinking about all the revisions over the last 6 years...

Service to DVI starts soon I hear. ;-)

Believe or not a few of us lowly US types have done some flying down there, even if not that high.

Deltas seemed to go well, better than UA, so adopt and go!

Dolphinflyer
09-08-2014, 06:02 PM
Do they have you on a bottle for the walk around, too?

I think I remember hearing stories of Eastern or Braniff trying to lay crews over down there. Didn't work too well, if I recall.

When I did it there wasn't a bottle, just constantly grabbing a drag from the masks all over the cockpit. Rumor was some guys tried to tough it and run up the jet bridge after the walk around and face planted ;)

Never did, plenty of climbers and skiers are used to working near that altitude. Guess it's what you used too.

Interesting was when the cabin finally pressurized below 7000' after departure. Instantaneous feeling of "where have I been" ;)

EMBFlyer
09-08-2014, 06:03 PM
When I did it there wasn't a bottle, just constantly grabbing a drag from the masks all over the cockpit. Rumor was some guys tried to tough it and run up the jet bridge after the walk around and face planted ;)

Never did, plenty of climbers and skiers are used to working near that altitude. Guess it's what you used too.

Interesting was when the cabin finally pressurized below 7000' after departure. Instantaneous feeling of "where have I been" ;)

Jesus! I'd love to do it once just to say I've done it (along with one approach to TGU), but that's about it!

7576FO
09-08-2014, 06:20 PM
When I did it there wasn't a bottle, just constantly grabbing a drag from the masks all over the cockpit. Rumor was some guys tried to tough it and run up the jet bridge after the walk around and face planted ;)

Never did, plenty of climbers and skiers are used to working near that altitude. Guess it's what you used too.

Interesting was when the cabin finally pressurized below 7000' after departure. Instantaneous feeling of "where have I been" ;)


I used to fly LPB. After 2003 it became more of a commuter trip. Meaning the commuter guys bid it all the time. I found I liked UIO (Quito) better, I live in Ft Laud. The LPB trip is hard.
Officially it's 13,318' above sea level.

I've never seen a walkaround O2 bottle for the actual walk round. Post flight inspection. The FA's and the PAX onboard are using it.

The FB does the walkaround. As you walk down the steep jetbridge stairs, you step off and start to walk your normal 3.8mph pace. After 6 steps, you stop. You are thinking OMG! Just then the 2 mechanics that are based there come toward you from around the nosewheel of the 757. You know they are going to talk to you, to ask you questions. You are thinking, I can't talk, I do not have air for that.
The start talking to you in English. You just nod.
You then do the slowest walkaround you've ever done. As you finish, you stand at the base of the jetbridge stair. It's like Everest! You use your arms as much as your legs. You get to the top, you open the door and step in. And there, there is The Captain and FO both smoking a cigarettes.
The look on my face must have been enough. The ask "What?" I just shake my head and walk into the cockpit, fall into the FB seat and throw 100% Emer O2 into my face.
And I think of the movie M*A*S*H where the jeep Sargent keeps saying "&*@ Damn Army."

aa73
09-09-2014, 04:19 AM
^^^ classic! Thx for the laugh.

Ok, the whole captain PA thing is probably small potatoes and only annoys those who aren't used to it. Once our CAs get in the habit of making that PA it's really no big deal, just a strange procedure when the rest of the airline world uses the FO for that.

Overall you'll find that AA places great emphasis on the Captain (yes, it's always capitalized.) this is mostly a good thing as it attempts to keep Captain's authority in the right place where today we find it mostly slowly eroding away.

For example, there is a section in our FM that states, "at the end of the flight the Captain should make every attempt to stand at the door and bid farewell to our passengers." now, in my PC mind I would have thought that should read "the pilot flying should stand and say goodbye" but once again, AA is a Captain's airline, and by golly if he wants to take credit for his FO's awesome landing he will!

It's those kind of things. Small stuff that seems old fashioned and somewhat dated but in the end I'm glad AA attempts to preserve the old legacy of the Captain and his ship. Although some of those things do need to get updated once in awhile. (FO calculating fuel every 15mins during a hold, uhh, what? Should I have my E6B handy for that?)

You'll find that once you get in the cockpit, the CRM and cockpit flow is just like any other airline. CAs and FOs work very well together here.

Skubajet
09-09-2014, 05:02 AM
^^^ classic! Thx for the laugh.

Ok, the whole captain PA thing is probably small potatoes and only annoys those who aren't used to it. Once our CAs get in the habit of making that PA it's really no big deal, just a strange procedure when the rest of the airline world uses the FO for that.

Overall you'll find that AA places great emphasis on the Captain (yes, it's always capitalized.) this is mostly a good thing as it attempts to keep Captain's authority in the right place where today we find it mostly slowly eroding away.

For example, there is a section in our FM that states, "at the end of the flight the Captain should make every attempt to stand at the door and bid farewell to our passengers." now, in my PC mind I would have thought that should read "the pilot flying should stand and say goodbye" but once again, AA is a Captain's airline, and by golly if he wants to take credit for his FO's awesome landing he will!

It's those kind of things. Small stuff that seems old fashioned and somewhat dated but in the end I'm glad AA attempts to preserve the old legacy of the Captain and his ship. Although some of those things do need to get updated once in awhile. (FO calculating fuel every 15mins during a hold, uhh, what? Should I have my E6B handy for that?)

You'll find that once you get in the cockpit, the CRM and cockpit flow is just like any other airline. CAs and FOs work very well together here.

I'm hoping the PAs get changed to how everyone else in the industry does it. Why shouldn't the FO make the PA on his non flying leg? While some probably don't care, some FOs might take pride in giving a nice PA on arrival. Also, greeting pax as they walk off.... Again why can't the PF do this? As most know flying gets pretty routine and one of the things I have found rewarding and take pride in is making the travel experience more personal for the passengers by giving a PA or saying goodbye to them as they walk off the plane.

It would be nice to allow the FOs to participate more in this personal side of the flying experience.

aa73
09-09-2014, 05:14 AM
I'm hoping the PAs get changed to how everyone else in the industry does it. Why shouldn't the FO make the PA on his non flying leg? While some probably don't care, some FOs might take pride in giving a nice PA on arrival. Also, greeting pax as they walk off.... Again why can't the PF do this? As most know flying gets pretty routine and one of the things I have found rewarding and take pride in is making the travel experience more personal for the passengers by giving a PA or saying goodbye to them as they walk off the plane.

It would be nice to allow the FOs to participate more in this personal side of the flying experience.

Skuba,

Again, this falls under AA's longtime culture of being a Captain's airline. It's just the way it is. Frankly, about 99% of FOs are very glad we don't have to do PAs as it's one less thing do worry about and "we don't get paid the big bucks to make PAs." :D

That said - around 50% of CAs do offer the PA when I'm PF and I usually take them up on it, simply to stay in practice for when I do upgrade. However, most FOs turn it down as it's really not part of our duties.

Standing and saying goodbye, I've always done it when I was PF.

Again - once you hit the line here, it is 99% like all other airlines.

Sliceback
09-09-2014, 05:19 AM
"Mandatory O2 mask on descent and approach is lotsa fun too"

The longest checklist, engines start, taxi, takeoff and climb out of your life.
I think it's 10,000 when we take the masks off....and remember, parallax is your friend! "That looks like 10,000 from here."

No bottle on walk arounds. If you walk like you're 80 or 90 years old, and use the handrail on the steps, you'll do fine. Little kids, who wake up with energy to burn, become Disney characters - Huey, Duey and Spewy.

CKA - there is no hurry up, or even normal pace, at 13,300.

Sliceback
09-09-2014, 05:26 AM
"It would be nice to allow the FOs to participate more in this personal side of the flying experience."

aa73 and I flew together 3.5 yrs ago. He liked making PA's. Since then one FO has taken up the offer to do PA's.

Saying goodbye at the cockpit door? FO's can do it anytime they want. FM says the Captain *will*. Many don't bother.

aa73
09-09-2014, 05:33 AM
aa73 also consistently does post flight walk arounds now, too. :D

Enjoy the airbus Slice!

FreighterGuyNow
09-09-2014, 05:43 AM
We've adopted numerous USAir policies.
FO TO 1/4 mi. AA used to be 600RVR for FO.

Was told many years ago that 1/4 mi was FAA recommended in case of a rejected takeoff requiring change of control.

Perhaps DFW FAA has some input vs PIT.

Twin Wasp
09-09-2014, 06:31 AM
I just hope we get rid of the one PA we do..having" folks remain seated until the seatbelt sign is turned off ". When commuting I get a chuckle as people are half listening and think we are saying its ok to take their seat belts and start moving around the cabin.

As an outsider looking in, it seems the cue for this PA is the Captain's hand going for the seatbelt sign.

bigscrillywilli
09-09-2014, 08:55 AM
Why, for God's sake, as we approach an active runway at very busy airports are we having the Captain go heads down while he taxiing and the F/O is busy twiddling his/her thumbs. I'm very capable of saying "Flight Attendants, prepare for take off." If AA doesn't trust me with the proper timing, tell The Captain to tell the first officer (notice proper cAApitalization) to make the PA. In the very short time I've been with US Airways, there has been a HUGE push to avoid runway incursions. We've actually done a stellar job at doing so and even designed our procedures in a way that we do everything possible to mitigate them. Now, we're ok with throwing that out the window.

Had CA miss line up and wait call because he was making PA, not his fault just stupid procedure. It's going to bite someone in the arss during high workload environment one day. Why in the world would you have the person actually moving the plane make that PA?

Real question is when are the vest police going to catch me?? Any guess on LUS compliance rate?

crzipilot
09-09-2014, 11:11 AM
Don't care about who makes the PA, just the the f/a's prepare for t/o and landing pa's. Should be the PM. Oh well. As for LBP, yup, fun airport, used to go in there 3-5 times a day on a little 727. After awhile didn't need any o2, but definitely would if not in there often enough, miss the Bolivian flying I used to do.

The old UIO airport was a challenge to say the least, haven't been to the new one.

D B Cooper
09-09-2014, 12:01 PM
Had CA miss line up and wait call because he was making PA, not his fault just stupid procedure. It's going to bite someone in the arss during high workload environment one day. Why in the world would you have the person actually moving the plane make that PA?

Real question is when are the vest police going to catch me?? Any guess on LUS compliance rate?

Right after the ramper crashes into the airplane. They will ask you, "were you wearing your vest"? I had a friend in la get in trouble for putting paint on a tire and rolling it over the back of his vest. Apparently the chief pilot didn't have a sense of humor.
We're glad you're here.

Saabs
09-09-2014, 12:37 PM
Why do some airways Fo's print out pairings for flight attendants? That's what needs to be changed.

Al Czervik
09-09-2014, 12:39 PM
Why do some airways Fo's print out pairings for flight attendants? That's what needs to be changed.

Not a big deal either way but...Are you that lazy?

Stetson29
09-09-2014, 12:50 PM
I'm an FO and I print pairings for the whole crew.
When I'm a captain I will continue to print pairings for the crew.

blastoff
09-09-2014, 01:00 PM
Why do some airways Fo's print out pairings for flight attendants? That's what needs to be changed.

Initially I thought it was weird. But there I was printing my own pairing, and it wasn't hard to tell the printer to spit out 5 instead of 1. Issue moot when we go to PBS.

However, what is weird is the dependence of old-timer FA's on the FO to tell them what time the van is in Eastern time -- Who cares, I just gave you the time that's on your phone, the hotel room clock, the news, and the sign-in sheet, can't you add by 3? (Exception for those weird places like AZ that don't do Daylight Savings--but Seattle has been -3 hours all 7 decades of her life) Can't wait for them to sign themselves in.

DCA A321 FO
09-09-2014, 01:04 PM
Why do some airways Fo's print out pairings for flight attendants? That's what needs to be changed.

Takes 2 minutes to make trip sheets, they feed me so I don't mind. I never do it for one day trips.

Enlarging the font makes older FAs really happy.

EMBFlyer
09-09-2014, 01:10 PM
Why do some airways Fo's print out pairings for flight attendants? That's what needs to be changed.

I don't mind doing trip sheets.

What bothers me are the ones that EXPECT you to sign them at the hotel.

It'll be a moot point in a few months (or whenever they learn to spell PBS) when we split away from the FAs. Then, the new fun game will watching them try to find their way out of the airport and to the van!

Pacman
09-09-2014, 01:50 PM
As far as the vests go, I've seen guys wearing the safety vest through the terminal in CLT so the compliance rate is fine.

The real FO pain is signing the whole crew into the hotel and the whole Eastern time thing. I can't remember the last time a FA didn't expect a pilot to sign them in.

EMBFlyer
09-09-2014, 02:21 PM
The real FO pain is signing the whole crew into the hotel and the whole Eastern time thing. I can't remember the last time a FA didn't expect a pilot to sign them in.

Then they yank the key out of your hand and don't even say "thanks". They just walk to the elevator with their 9 bags.

Hueypilot
09-09-2014, 02:44 PM
Then they yank the key out of your hand and don't even say "thanks". They just walk to the elevator with their 9 bags.

On my first trip on OE (actually, my first airline trip ever...I'm ex-military), the A signed us in, and then looked (actually "glared") right at me and said "you owe me one for doing your job"...and she didn't say it in a joking way. I think all I said was "did I miss something?"

EMBFlyer
09-09-2014, 02:51 PM
On my first trip on OE (actually, my first airline trip ever...I'm ex-military), the A signed us in, and then looked (actually "glared") right at me and said "you owe me one for doing your job"...and she didn't say it in a joking way. I think all I said was "did I miss something?"

Hell hath no furry like look 3 PIT commuters give you when you step away from the sign-in sheet before completing your "duty"!

nimslow
09-09-2014, 03:40 PM
As far as the vests go, I've seen guys wearing the safety vest through the terminal in CLT so the compliance rate is fine.

The real FO pain is signing the whole crew into the hotel and the whole Eastern time thing. I can't remember the last time a FA didn't expect a pilot to sign them in.

Our culture is going to cause some heads to explode then. Most of the time, we don't layover with the FA's. It's rare to have the same cabin crew for more than two legs, and we seldom leave the hotel in the morning, with the FA's we got there with the night before.

We each sign ourselves in at the hotel. I'll put the captains info on the sheet, if I get to it first, and some captains will sign me in, if they get there first. Most of the time, it's separate sign in sheets for the pilots and FA's

I don't even print my own sequence anymore, just take a screen shot of it when I sign in from my phone.

Pilot X
09-09-2014, 04:40 PM
I don't mind doing trip sheets.

What bothers me are the ones that EXPECT you to sign them at the hotel.

It'll be a moot point in a few months (or whenever they learn to spell PBS) when we split away from the FAs. Then, the new fun game will watching them try to find their way out of the airport and to the van!

Come fly int'l....the A flight attendant distributes the keys, nice change from being the sign in mule!

inline five
09-09-2014, 06:36 PM
Had CA miss line up and wait call because he was making PA, not his fault just stupid procedure. It's going to bite someone in the arss during high workload environment one day. Why in the world would you have the person actually moving the plane make that PA?

Real question is when are the vest police going to catch me?? Any guess on LUS compliance rate?
I keep forgetting to put it on, primacy is a hard thing to kill.

I did pick up mine in the CP's office on the last trip. Now that I have my own I might be able to remember it more often. It's nice, it's got a nice little plastic pocket for ear plugs on the front.

inline five
09-09-2014, 06:39 PM
I don't mind doing trip sheets.

What bothers me are the ones that EXPECT you to sign them at the hotel.

It'll be a moot point in a few months (or whenever they learn to spell PBS) when we split away from the FAs. Then, the new fun game will watching them try to find their way out of the airport and to the van!

It's like herding sheep

I thought it would be better than my commuter but no, still the same.

I try not to do too much signing in. I just tear the crew list off the release and tape that on the sign in sheet. Makes for a lot less writing.

Saabs
09-09-2014, 06:40 PM
Not a big deal either way but...Are you that lazy?

I don't usually print pairings out, I have them in my iPad. I can't stand it when an FA asks for a pairing right as I walk on board before I even get my bag on. I've yet to give any FA a pairing, they can click print just like everyone else who checks in. When I was based in PHL u would be lucky to find a printer that worked before 3 tries.

Dolphinflyer
09-09-2014, 06:57 PM
Come fly int'l....the A flight attendant distributes the keys, nice change from being the sign in mule!

Do you realize what that entails with a AA FA?

That means if the hotel has decided to give the Captain or the pilots nice rooms or a suite the pilots WILL get the crappiest rooms. Even if they are standard rooms, many INT FA's will give the crappiest rooms to the pilots if they detached from the hotel sign in process. We've had many Caribbean layovers where two oceanfront suites were reserved for the pilots and certain FA's literally run out of the van to change the room numbers. Never give a AA FA control of the hotel sign in sheet. That's rule number of the Fight Club. :D

I think you guys, like our Captain run airline former TWA guys, are in a rude awakening when dealing with a few of our AA FA's still living in the pilot hating culture. Most our great, it's the few that create the problems.

Sliceback
09-09-2014, 06:57 PM
You'll love AA because we don't do that 'strange' US stuff.
Pairings(sequence)? You're a big girl, figure out how to print it yourself.
Hotel sign in? Pilots do themselves. Everyone else knows their own name and should be able to figure it out. International some of the super sharp #1's do everyone.
Pickups in Easter time? Tonto, you're not in Kansas anymore and the world has lots of time zones. Figure it out for yourself in you want it anything other than local time.

'Strange' is tongue in cheek. Every airline is different. Eg - when you're out sick you are until you 'clear sick.' Previous jobs you had to call in sick for every trip.

DCA A321 FO
09-09-2014, 07:06 PM
Not a big deal either way but...Are you that lazy?


I don't usually print pairings out, I have them in my iPad. I can't stand it when an FA asks for a pairing right as I walk on board before I even get my bag on. I've yet to give any FA a pairing, they can click print just like everyone else who checks in. When I was based in PHL u would be lucky to find a printer that worked before 3 tries.

You just had to say "YES."

Surprise
09-09-2014, 07:40 PM
You'll love AA because we don't do that 'strange' US stuff.
Pairings(sequence)? You're a big girl, figure out how to print it yourself.
Hotel sign in? Pilots do themselves. Everyone else knows their own name and should be able to figure it out. International some of the super sharp #1's do everyone.
Pickups in Easter time? Tonto, you're not in Kansas anymore and the world has lots of time zones. Figure it out for yourself in you want it anything other than local time.

See? Adopt and go!:)

EMBFlyer
09-09-2014, 09:21 PM
You'll love AA because we don't do that 'strange' US stuff.
Pairings(sequence)? You're a big girl, figure out how to print it yourself.
Hotel sign in? Pilots do themselves. Everyone else knows their own name and should be able to figure it out. International some of the super sharp #1's do everyone.
Pickups in Easter time? Tonto, you're not in Kansas anymore and the world has lots of time zones. Figure it out for yourself in you want it anything other than local time.

'Strange' is tongue in cheek. Every airline is different. Eg - when you're out sick you are until you 'clear sick.' Previous jobs you had to call in sick for every trip.

This is an "Adopt and Go" I can get on board with! :D

Dolphinflyer
09-10-2014, 04:01 AM
Now for the biggies:

Are you guys jetway or jetbridge types?

Do you guys call "In range" or a "Changeover"

Those two things will have us in group therapy. ;)

crzipilot
09-10-2014, 04:32 AM
WTH is a changover?

I can feel the stress building all ready.... HA

Dolphinflyer
09-10-2014, 05:08 AM
WTH is a changover?

I can feel the stress building all ready.... HA

It's spelled "Changeover", and you'd better start adopting buddy. :D


Another one, if you don't send a position report via the FMS every 90 minutes, do you get any type of ACARS messages requesting one?

EMBFlyer
09-10-2014, 05:34 AM
It's spelled "Changeover", and you'd better start adopting buddy. :D


Another one, if you don't send a position report via the FMS every 90 minutes, do you get any type of ACARS messages requesting one?

Nope. We don't have to do company position reports (as of right this moment).

Also, we (under most circumstances, unless you have an airplane that doesn't have Uplink) don't have send anything to get the gate. It automatically comes up off the printer as we descend through about 8,000.

crzipilot
09-10-2014, 06:09 AM
It's spelled "Changeover", and you'd better start adopting buddy. :D


Another one, if you don't send a position report via the FMS every 90 minutes, do you get any type of ACARS messages requesting one?


Like I said, the stress is already kicking in. Company position reports? What are those? They used to request them but haven't seen such in awhile.

R57 relay
09-10-2014, 06:27 AM
I think you guys, like our Captain run airline former TWA guys, are in a rude awakening when dealing with a few of our AA FA's still living in the pilot hating culture. Most our great, it's the few that create the problems.

Now see, you guys should have been printing parings and signing the F/As in!:D

We didn't co-pair with F/As at Piedmont and when we merged with US it was a big adjustment flying with them for a whole trip. 90% of the time staying together was an improvement, and the simple kindness of printing a pairing and signing the crew in paid big dividends. When I encountered a F/A that told me it was my job, they they were promptly told it was a courtesy, and it ended. After two long days with one particular witch, I handed out all the other keys and walked off. She said "Where's my key!?" I said "You got me, have a good night."

We've enjoyed a pretty good relationship with F/As at US. I can already sense the change in the air.

R57 relay
09-10-2014, 06:30 AM
Lineholder or blockholder? Maybe know we can have only one ops freq in PHX? I thought I had that figured out once, but was wrong. Are your pairing time printed in local time, or central time? Ours(east) were printed in the former Mecca time-eastern, hence the F/A struggle with conversion.;)

Sliceback
09-10-2014, 06:39 AM
"We've enjoyed a pretty good relationship with F/As at US. I can already sense the change in the air."

Most of the time we enjoy a pretty good relationship with the F/A's too. But I'd guess the US f/a's are going to think the AA pilots are jerks because we don't bring them their HI-3(sequence/pairing info) or sign them into the hotel. That's just too weird. Are they really THAT lazy? ;-) Or is just different culture/expectations?

Sliceback
09-10-2014, 06:41 AM
Everything's in local time. How backward is a company that does it differently?(again, tongue in cheek for all the future complaints about X or Y being different in the future).

Sliceback
09-10-2014, 06:49 AM
One freq? In DFW, with 3 terminals and 19 company pages in Jepps you have two freqs for ramp/ops/mx. In MIA, with one terminal and 22 company pages, you have four frequencies with gates or time differences.

R57 relay
09-10-2014, 06:49 AM
Everything's in local time. How backward is a company that does it differently?(again, tongue in cheek for all the future complaints about X or Y being different in the future).

On that front, very backward. But of course back in Convair days they didn't have cellphones that changed with time zones. Wait, were there time zones then?;)

R57 relay
09-10-2014, 06:52 AM
One freq? In DFW, with 3 terminals and 19 company pages in Jepps you have two freqs for ramp/ops/mx. In MIA, with one terminal and 22 company pages, you have four frequencies with gates or time differences.


I'm talking about just the one labled "Ops", not all the others like ramp and mtc. I think the jepp says inbound and outbound, but my logic produces a wrong call most of the time. A west guy broke the code for me once, but I promptly forgot.

EMBFlyer
09-10-2014, 06:52 AM
One freq? In DFW, with 3 terminals and 19 company pages in Jepps you have two freqs for ramp/ops/mx. In MIA, with one terminal and 22 company pages, you have four frequencies with gates or time differences.

In CLT, you have 2 Ramp frequencies. 1 Inbound and 1 Outbound. You can't hear what the other guy is doing. And even though I'm convinced Inbound and Outbound are standing next to each other in the Ramp Tower, neither one seems to know what the other guy is doing.

Although, I have found I get better service if I speak "Charlotte Ramp".

R57 relay
09-10-2014, 06:53 AM
Although, I have found I get better service if I speak "Charlotte Ramp".

Hey, it's the land of NASCAR. "Y'all be careful out there!"

algflyr
09-10-2014, 06:59 AM
In CLT, you have 2 Ramp frequencies. 1 Inbound and 1 Outbound. You can't hear what the other guy is doing. And even though I'm convinced Inbound and Outbound are standing next to each other in the Ramp Tower, neither one seems to know what the other guy is doing.



Ground Control at ORD is the same way...

algflyr
09-10-2014, 07:05 AM
Hey, it's the land of NASCAR. "Y'all be careful out there!"

You forgot to add: "Ya hear?" at the end to make it authentic southern talk... :)

EMBFlyer
09-10-2014, 07:14 AM
Hey, it's the land of NASCAR. "Y'all be careful out there!"

You forgot to add: "Ya hear?" at the end to make it authentic southern talk... :)

"Uh...tell you what, bring it on in Echo 14, in sequence, right side along the grass, hold in between 5 and 6, give way to that mini-Bus comin' out in between the B and C Cons, to the gate."

"Uh...tell ya what, give way to that Dash comin' off the Line. I got a heavy comin' into the D Con, in sequence, 2 point 8."

algflyr
09-10-2014, 07:16 AM
...
But I'd guess the US f/a's are going to think the AA pilots are jerks because we don't bring them their HI-3(sequence/pairing info) or sign them into the hotel. That's just too weird. Are they really THAT lazy? ;-) Or is just different culture/expectations?

I think it's more of a cultural/expectation thing. It's been done as a courtesy for them for so many years, that it has become expected. I print pairings for them simply because I'm printing one out for myself and it's just as easy to hit the "5" key as it is the "1" key. No biggy. I usually sign them in but again this is something that takes all of 2 minutes. Most say thanks but not all. Being nice to the FA's does pay off most of the time. When you are, they seem to check on you more often and offer us better service in the air. I would say that some pilots have come to "expect" certain things from the FA's while working that is not in the FA's job description... I've just found that if your nice to them, they are usually nice to you. Makes for an easier trip. All for the cost of 2-3 extra minutes of "work" on my part...

R57 relay
09-10-2014, 07:28 AM
You forgot to add: "Ya hear?" at the end to make it authentic southern talk... :)

Bless your heart. Captain to F/O-"Watch this!";)

R57 relay
09-10-2014, 07:33 AM
"We've enjoyed a pretty good relationship with F/As at US. I can already sense the change in the air."

Most of the time we enjoy a pretty good relationship with the F/A's too. But I'd guess the US f/a's are going to think the AA pilots are jerks because we don't bring them their HI-3(sequence/pairing info) or sign them into the hotel. That's just too weird. Are they really THAT lazy? ;-) Or is just different culture/expectations?

It comes from staying together for the entire trip. It was an Allegheny thing that transferred to the rest of us when we started being co-paired. It wasn't expected at PI when we switched crews like you guys,the west, and most airlines do. The F/As know it's coming to an end here, and it was even without a merger. FAR 117 makes it too expensive to co-pair crews.

Sliceback
09-10-2014, 07:48 AM
Flying is the smallest part of the Captain's responsibilities. Schmoozing is high on the list of unwritten responsibilities. It can make life easier before the flight, during the flight, or even weeks or months later. The tone can get set at the first glance.

Sliceback
09-10-2014, 07:49 AM
Hopefully the US guys will realize they work for a Texan airline - it's pronounced 'Ah mur kin'. ;-)

EMBFlyer
09-10-2014, 07:53 AM
Hopefully the US guys will realize they work for a Texan airline - it's pronounced 'Ah mur kin'. ;-)

I thought the "A" was silent.

crzipilot
09-10-2014, 07:53 AM
The pairings things seems to have been quickly drifting away from expectations. Especially since in my eyes the F/A's are on different pairings. I would print pairings, but over time when offered them all the f/a's were like, Oh I got one, etc. So I slowly stopped. Though out of habit I print a couple extra for myself. In the past 6 months I think I've given one out, as I usually at least ask if anyone needs one.

kingairip
09-10-2014, 07:56 AM
We've enjoyed a pretty good relationship with F/As at US. I can already sense the change in the air.

I don't think that'll be the case. I've commuted on AA for the last 8 months or so...usually in uniform. The AA FAs have treated me great...better than US FAs actually. They almost always offer me snacks/food/cookies. That only rarely happens with our FAs.

The Drizzle
09-10-2014, 07:59 AM
I don't think that'll be the case. I've commuted on AA for the last 8 months or so...usually in uniform. The AA FAs have treated me great...better than US FAs actually. They almost always offer me snacks/food/cookies. That only rarely happens with our FAs.

Really? I mean, both our stories are anecdotal, but I can't so much as get some water outside of the regular service every time I'm on AA. In comparison, I feel like I'm being pelted by water bottles by our US FAs.

R57 relay
09-10-2014, 08:00 AM
Hopefully the US guys will realize they work for a Texan airline - it's pronounced 'Ah mur kin'. ;-)

I practice that in the mirror every night. ;)

I just finished reading "Eagle" by Robert Serling. I didn't know/remember that Chicago was the original headquarters. I remember when they moved from NY to Fort Worth. HQ is in Fort Worth, not Dallas, right?

aa73
09-10-2014, 10:03 AM
HQ address is actually "DFW Airport, TX" with its own zip code. I guess it's officially Ft Worth. When you take off from the 17s/18s at DFW, you fly right over the HQ complex about 3 miles south of the airport.

Sliceback
09-10-2014, 10:32 AM
Wasn't it Arlington or Grand Prairie??? Checked google.maps and it's stuck between Euless, Irving, Grand Prairie and Arlington. Supposedly AA demanded, and got, a better name/zip code concession. DFW Airport sounds better than Euless or Grand Prairie. Kind of hard going from Manhattan to "where? Euless?!?!"

Departing DFW to the south and 2 miles south there's an east/west highway. 1/4 mile to the west is another n/s highway. Flight Academy, FA Learning Center, Central (?) Res building, Ft. Worth center, and old AA HDQ sit on the SW corner of that interchange.

New (1990's?) AMR hdq is just south of the e/w highway at the end of the DFW access road. It's the old Greater Southwest Airport and the main road used to be a runway. About 1/4-1/2 mile SE of the Flight Academy.

AirbusFO
09-10-2014, 10:41 AM
I thought the "A" was silent.

So the Airways guys have to pronounce it "Merkin" from now on...I kid...

As far as tha Adopt and Go policy--I agree with it wholeheartedly! (don;t like parts of it--but agree with it) For the US Boeing Guys and the Merkin Bus guys the changes are odd and seem silly at times...I realize that from The pilot down to the ramp and every single functional office in the company has the same concerns and complaints--There are hundred of thousands of details in every office that have to take place to complete this merger--If they were to stop at each one to determine and develop the "best practice" for each detail It will take 20 years to get this merger complete..I would rather them take the bigger group--put what they have in place and move to the next thing. My personal responisiblity in this is to retain the Old publications and capture the US Airways FOM best practices (V1-5 anyone? as an example) and in a year or 2--when the majority of the merger is complete and the responsible parties can actually start looking at things other than the merger... THEN submit what I think are the best practices that were lost in the rush to merge and advocate to get them put back in...I am ready to join up with my Merkin bros and start kicking the ****** out of the competition!!

AF

DrivinTheDash
09-10-2014, 11:09 AM
Everything's in local time. How backward is a company that does it differently?(again, tongue in cheek for all the future complaints about X or Y being different in the future).

This topic is one that can prove that those of us at US aren't all just afraid to change from the US way... I don't know about the older guys - and i'm sure the FAs will convulse the first time they have a pairing that isn't all in eastern time - but I know an awful lot of pilots who find the whole thing ridiculous. I, for one, look forward to local time pairings!


Most of the time we enjoy a pretty good relationship with the F/A's too. But I'd guess the US f/a's are going to think the AA pilots are jerks because we don't bring them their HI-3(sequence/pairing info) or sign them into the hotel. That's just too weird. Are they really THAT lazy? ;-) Or is just different culture/expectations?

Personally, it makes a lot of sense to me for one person to fill out the hotel sheet. I don't care whether it's the A, as on US international, the FO - me - as is typical on domestic trips, or the captain, as happens every now and again... I just think it makes sense to not make everyone take a turn at the counter, and makes the whole process go a little bit quicker.

As for printing pairings, I almost always do it, but I think it's become pretty silly. I personally don't really need one, as I have all of the flight info on my phone. The only thing I use it for, if I have one, is to write down our "Fit for duty" numbers that have to be sent in each leg now. While I don't mind printing them for the FAs or other pilots, I typically find that I only give out about half of the copies I make on average. Sometimes, everyone needs one; other times, only one or two. I also find that, especially on international trips, it's not uncommon for the FO and IRO to each print out all 9 copies, and sometimes the captain does the same. Even if all of the FAs needed one, you're left with 10 spares to toss!

Dolphinflyer
09-10-2014, 11:44 AM
Personally, it makes a lot of sense to me for one person to fill out the hotel sheet. I don't care whether it's the A, as on US international, the FO - me - as is typical on domestic trips, or the captain, as happens every now and again... I just think it makes sense to not make everyone take a turn at the counter, and makes the whole process go a little bit quicker.



Obviously a low priority thingy, but down the road we should push for the company to automatically transmit the data to the hotel near the estimated arrival time, or some method with CCI to hotlink a transmission to the Hotel with the names arrival departing the jet. Seems like the hotel would like the waiting time reduced also.

Who reads those chicken scratch things anyways? They usually look like 5 Doctors each wrote down a perscription.

Twin Wasp
09-10-2014, 02:10 PM
Wasn't it Arlington or Grand Prairie??? Checked google.maps and it's stuck between Euless, Irving, Grand Prairie and Arlington. Supposedly AA demanded, and got, a better name/zip code concession. DFW Airport sounds better than Euless or Grand Prairie. Kind of hard going from Manhattan to "where? Euless?!?!"

There was a military field where the old airport was during WW2. In the late 1940's, long before AA showed up, Ft. Worth annexed land along a railroad track to get to the site. The old GSW airport was supposed to be a regional airport but I've heard Dallas backed out when the terminal was put on the west side.

The "City of DFW Airport" is a creation to get around jurisdiction issues caused by the airport being in four different cities (Coppell, Euless, Grapevine and Irving) and two counties. The Postal Service also considers it a separate city for mail going to the post office at the south end of the airport. Ya'lls mailing address is a PO box at that post office but 75261 is shared with everyone getting mail at that post office.

There'll be a test at the end of the week.

aapilotguy
09-10-2014, 04:25 PM
As for printing pairings, I almost always do it, but I think it's become pretty silly. I personally don't really need one, as I have all of the flight info on my phone. The only thing I use it for, if I have one, is to write down our "Fit for duty" numbers that have to be sent in each leg now. While I don't mind printing them for the FAs or other pilots, I typically find that I only give out about half of the copies I make on average. Sometimes, everyone needs one; other times, only one or two. I also find that, especially on international trips, it's not uncommon for the FO and IRO to each print out all 9 copies, and sometimes the captain does the same. Even if all of the FAs needed one, you're left with 10 spares to toss!

Won't somebody please think about the tree huggers! :D

aapilotguy
09-10-2014, 04:29 PM
Ok here's one that's on my why do we do it this way list. CAs do all briefings (takeoff and now approach briefing with RC5).

crzipilot
09-10-2014, 07:13 PM
Don't forget the requirement to state who the PF is?!?!? Uhmmmm....who has the airplane?

450knotOffice
09-10-2014, 08:35 PM
Don't forget the requirement to state who the PF is?!?!? Uhmmmm....who has the airplane?

That's on the Backside of the US checklist. PF...really?

Ok, fine. So, I'M the Pilot Flying (Duh), blah, blah, blah, 7.5 degrees nose up max, blah, blah, blah...

Samuelson
09-11-2014, 01:38 AM
Ok here's one that's on my why do we do it this way list. CAs do all briefings (takeoff and now approach briefing with RC5).

But in each case, the captain has authority to delegate that task to the FO per FM1.

7576FO
09-11-2014, 04:17 AM
But in each case, the captain has authority to delegate that task to the FO per FM1.

Yes, for my whole time at AA it's been the CA that does the TO briefing.

Every other airline I worked for the breif was: If i'm the FO:

THis will be my TO, prior to V1 it will be your decision to abort, after V1 I will continue the TO. The SID is _______, For emergency will do ________ and return to rwy _____

In our human factors class at recurrent they showed a video of a S80 just airborne the FO couldn't figure out what was wrong and let go (gave up).

glasspilot
09-11-2014, 04:25 AM
EMB,
I've been trying for years to get this PA changed to the FO. No go. AA is stuck on the CA making this PA because, by God, he or she is way more qualified than the FO to make it. (Eye roll please.) The exact verbiage I got from the flight dept when my suggestion made it there read something like this:
"We appreciate your suggestion but feel that the Captain has a much better awareness of when to seat the FAs and as such, we plan on keeping it this way."
That's what I got back - no joke. To which I responded, "then why not have the CA tell the FO to seat them?" "Because the FO has already way too much going on and we don't want the FO to go even more heads down at this point."
Great, so let's have the CA go heads down while taxiing! Unreal.
I believe AA is the only airline in the US that got an FAA exemption for the CA to be able to make this PA while taxiing. I know, makes zero sense.

This one of the strange things we had to accept when we (TWA) went to AA procedures. Most of us TWA CA's still asked our F/O's if they minded doing the before T/O announcement at the beginning of a trip. The vast majority said they didn't mind and actually agreed with the F/O doing it. However, as always happens, eventually there was a "memo" that demanded we comply with the AA procedures on this PA.

And don't get me started on the "mechanical" checklist!

aa73
09-11-2014, 04:46 AM
Glasspilot,

The mechanical checklist is/was widely praised as the best practice in the industry and the one least likely to induce errors. The only reason other airlines didn't have them was simply because they didn't want to pony up the $$$. Even NASA in the '80s praised the concept. Today there is a reason we have the electronic evolution of the mechanical checklist on the EFIS displays of new aircraft. The only reason you guys (TWA and others) didn't like it was because you weren't used to it. Today when I talk to most TWA and other airline folks who are at AA, 99% of them praise it. I, too was a little put off by it at first as a new hire but rapidly changed when I saw the benefits.

Now, The takeoff PA made by the captain and not the FO, completely agree! I'm still hopeful it will change some day.

R57 relay
09-11-2014, 04:49 AM
But in each case, the captain has authority to delegate that task to the FO per FM1.

I'm trying hard to do things the way the company wants. On this I take the latitude I'm given and delegate the briefings to the F/O when it is his/her leg.

R57 relay
09-11-2014, 04:51 AM
Glasspilot,

The mechanical checklist is/was widely praised as the best practice in the industry and the one least likely to induce errors. The only reason other airlines didn't have them was simply because they didn't want to pony up the $$$. Even NASA in the '80s praised the concept. Today there is a reason we have the electronic evolution of the mechanical checklist on the EFIS displays of new aircraft. The only reason you guys (TWA and others) didn't like it was because you weren't used to it. Today when I talk to most TWA and other airline folks who are at AA, 99% of them praise it. I, too was a little put off by it at first as a new hire but rapidly changed when I saw the benefits.

Now, The takeoff PA made by the captain and not the FO, completely agree! I'm still hopeful it will change some day.

What is a mechanical checklist and is still around?

The Drizzle
09-11-2014, 04:53 AM
I'm trying hard to do things the way the company wants. On this I take the latitude I'm given and delegate the briefings to the F/O when it is his/her leg.

I haven't had a CA brief me yet on my legs, it all seems like a joke to everybody I fly with. Gonna be some culture shock when we start mixing.

Sliceback
09-11-2014, 06:28 AM
I'm trying hard to do things the way the company wants. On this I take the latitude I'm given and delegate the briefings to the F/O when it is his/her leg.

And when you fly with OAA(Original AA) FO's you'll find the majority won't be interested. It's the same with doing PA's, most AA CA's don't bother offering because it's the very, very rare FO that wants to. Years ago more, and perhaps most, FO's did them. It's somehow become the 3rd rail for a lot of FO's - "I don't do PA's".

Maybe the group dynamic will change back with the newhires and the merger.

aa73
09-11-2014, 06:29 AM
What is a mechanical checklist and is still around?

It is a checklist incorporated into the pedestal that has a switch for each item on the before takeoff and before landing checklists. As you do each item you flip the switch, indicating that the item has been complete. It allows you to run the checklist out of order if needed, for example if going out single engine or if you haven't gotten the load close out yet, without the need to restart it and knowing at a glance if you've completed that item.

It is installed fleet wide on AA aircraft except for 777 and A320 fleet, which have it incorporated into the EICAS/ECAM.

It is a valuable tool that really enhanced checklist safety for years... they will be eventually removed from the fleets as we move towards more advanced aircraft that incorporate them into the screens.

R57 relay
09-11-2014, 06:38 AM
And when you fly with OAA(Original AA) FO's you'll find the majority won't be interested. It's the same with doing PA's, most AA CA's don't bother offering because it's the very, very rare FO that wants to. Years ago more, and perhaps most, FO's did them. It's somehow become the 3rd rail for a lot of FO's - "I don't do PA's".

Maybe the group dynamic will change back with the newhires and the merger.

Our briefings have become so long and convoluted that sometimes I think the other guy isn't really following it. Having the PF verbalize what they are going to do helps. I have the latitude on that one, and use it. You're probably right, it time it will migrate and we'll think nothing of it.

I do all the PAs because most of our F/Os don't seem interested and it's easier to keep track of as I run through what I have left to do in my head-new stuff is not quite habit yet. One good reason for having the captain do them is to keep continuity in the message. I've been in situations with irreg ops when I told the pax something and the F/O something else. But "F/As prepare for takeoff" should be done by F/Os, IMHO. But I've managed with no big issues. That's how most of the changes are. In a year we won't remember most of how we did it before.

kingairip
09-11-2014, 06:57 AM
It's the same with doing PA's, most AA CA's don't bother offering because it's the very, very rare FO that wants to. Years ago more, and perhaps most, FO's did them. It's somehow become the 3rd rail for a lot of FO's - "I don't do PA's".

Maybe the group dynamic will change back with the newhires and the merger.

I guess I'm acclimating quickly. A lot of US captains tell me now "you can make the PAs when I'm flying" as if I want to. I haven't told one "that's not my job", but I'm tempted. After all, I'm not the one making $200 an hour!

crzipilot
09-11-2014, 08:47 AM
I tell it's not my job all the time. Hahahaha. I kid.....sorta