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rlkrutenat
10-02-2014, 06:17 AM
The reason that scope relief is being pursued now is the E175E2. It will not be delivered until 2018/2020.

It is currently above the AA scope limit.

The E175E2 is 88 seats in a one class configuration. Or 80 in a two class configuration. The MTOW is 97,730 lbs.

The E175E2 is powered by the PW1000G, a "geared turbofan" engine. Pratt & Whitney claims the PW1000G is 10% to 15% more fuel efficient than current engines used on regional jets and single-aisle jets, as well as being substantially quieter.


EMBFlyer
10-02-2014, 06:21 AM
The reason that scope relief is being pursued now is the E175E2. It will not be delivered until 2018/2020.

It is currently above the AA scope limit.

The E175E2 is 88 seats in a one class configuration. Or 80 in a two class configuration. The MTOW is 97,730 lbs.

The E175E2 is powered by the PW1000G, a "geared turbofan" engine. Pratt & Whitney claims the PW1000G is 10% to 15% more fuel efficient than current engines used on regional jets and single-aisle jets, as well as being substantially quieter.

Or they could remove 4 seats and it'd be in compliance. Don't lighter planes burn less fuel?

Surprise
10-02-2014, 06:24 AM
Or they could just let me fly it. But I guess that train has sailed.:rolleyes:


PurpleTurtle
10-02-2014, 07:48 AM
Scope is an alter ego scam.

Doug Parker got the praise of Frank Lorenzo...

What more do we need to know?

Article Page | TheStreet (http://www.thestreet.mobi/story/11840494/1/airline-dealmaker-frank-lorenzo-says-doug-parker-got-it-right.html)

Do half the pilots even know Lorenzo?

drinksonme
10-02-2014, 08:28 AM
He also praised SWA. Oh, and one his best and brightest young labor relations lawyers (literally hand picked by Lorenzo himself)in the 80's.....Jeff Smisek, CEO at United today. You guys will split hairs over anything.

ITS REAL SIMPLE

STEP 1..TELL YOUR UNION LEADER NO CHANGE ON SCOPE,

-if they don't listen and negative Scope changes ARE in the TA


Step 2. VOTE NO ON TA COLLECTICELY.

Step 3. Vote out Union leadership

If TA PASSES COLLECTIVLY WITH NEGATIVE SCOPE CHANGES. BLAME IT ON YOUR GREEDY COUNTERPARTS.

It's really that simple. If the union allows it and it passes it not the company's fault. They are doing their jobs, your Union and counterparts will be to blame and are NOT doing their jobs.

encore
10-02-2014, 09:08 AM
The reason that scope relief is being pursued now is the E175E2. It will not be delivered until 2018/2020.

It is currently above the AA scope limit.

The E175E2 is 88 seats in a one class configuration. Or 80 in a two class configuration. The MTOW is 97,730 lbs.

The E175E2 is powered by the PW1000G, a "geared turbofan" engine. Pratt & Whitney claims the PW1000G is 10% to 15% more fuel efficient than current engines used on regional jets and single-aisle jets, as well as being substantially quieter.

This is very dangerous to our profession. This is an aircraft that could replace a vast majority of domestic flying. Even A321/B739s would be in trouble when they could fly 2 of these instead.

Also below 97700lbs: F-28, F-100, DC-9-10, BAC-111.

These are mainline airplanes and belong at mainline! Tell your reps NO!!!

eaglefly
10-02-2014, 09:18 AM
Do half the pilots even know Lorenzo?

Half the pilots in the industry weren't even born when Uncle Frankie started his decimation philosophy with Texas Air. I'll bet a large percentage would assume he runs a grocery store in New Jersey or is the head coach of a pro football team. :cool:

eaglefly
10-02-2014, 09:26 AM
This is very dangerous to our profession. This is an aircraft that could replace a vast majority of domestic flying. Even A321/B739s would be in trouble when they could fly 2 of these instead.

Also below 97700lbs: F-28, F-100, DC-9-10, BAC-111.

These are mainline airplanes and belong at mainline! Tell your reps NO!!!

Yep. If you're junior, there goes your upgrade. :eek: That airplane can do A LOT MORE then the typical E-175 including some International ops with its range. Interestingly, a lot of fairly recent pilots in the industry actually supported what has caught up with them, namely fostering a regional system that allowed the "fast upgrade" to proliferate as opposed to a slower advancement career carrier philosophy like Comair or the original Eagle. Many thought they'd get their 1000 PIC and would jump to the majors so they wouldn't have to live where they crapped.

Unfortunately (and disgustingly), those steaming piles of crap have remained moist and may soon slide over to the majors for all junior to enjoy the aroma, including many who once thought they'd outrun.

Harry Dunn
10-02-2014, 09:39 AM
We (mainline) should fly the aircraft. Same thing I thought when I flew it at my previous regional carrier. It's not regional aircraft and this is about dividing and conquering. It does compete well against LCC's. But, we as a pilot group can offer competitive rates in order to regain/retain the flying at the mainline. Instead of pushing this down to the regionals, I would vote to bring them up. We should help create quality jobs at competitive rates now, we WILL have the opportunity to bring the rates up at a later time. However, if we discern scope will be lost on an upcoming contract, we should establish a timeline.

"After 48 months the contested aircraft will transition from the regional carrier to the mainline carrier to be completed no later than 60 months from the beginning of the transition." Or something like this. Give the hired pilots thorough screening and a flow through to mainline. This is only plan B though.

Al Czervik
10-02-2014, 09:49 AM
Step 2. VOTE NO ON TA COLLECTICELY.



One problem....We don't get to vote.

drinksonme
10-02-2014, 11:45 AM
^^^^^Are you sure about that? If the company and APA come to an agreement that is not the MTA, but rather a new contract....we do not get to vote? I can see if during JCBA they can not reach an agreement and it goes to arbitration that we would not get a vote. However if this is an entirely new agreement, even if it only changes say pay, we will not have the right to ratify that new agreement....thats the deal?

As I understood it, we will get a say if the terms of the MTA change. If not, then the MTA will stand including the arbitration ruling under the MTA.

Regardless, same rules apply. If the Union leadership passes a contract with relaxed scope and it goes against the majority of the group, then they are to blame. As such, so are the greedy pilots that had their ear and influence. Again, it's no shock the company wants this. To scream at them is a waste. It's your counterparts and Union that control the fate of scope. Just cause they ask, or in this case leverage it with pay raises, does not mean you say yes. It's that simple. If they say yes, the it's all greed.

CaptainBigWood
10-02-2014, 12:27 PM
Union leadership is generally older with fewer years to fly. My guess is there will be relaxed scope for more money. The real question is, will they find pilots to fly them at low wages? They are struggling to fill classes now.

Mesabah
10-02-2014, 12:53 PM
The 81 seats, is the larger MRJ 90 in a 2 class configuration. The regionals already have 150 on order. FAIL!

eaglefly
10-02-2014, 01:46 PM
Well, according to those who have queried their reps, the APA's present position is that they aren't interested in scope relief and see it unnecessary as AA is on equal competitive footing with DAL and UAL. Parkers........um, shall we say "arousal" for more then 76-seats for regionals (79-81) has been known since the heady days of the early CLA negotiations to realize APA's desire to insert and ignite a JATO bottle in Horton's outflow valve.

crzipilot
10-02-2014, 02:18 PM
^^^^^Are you sure about that? If the company and APA come to an agreement that is not the MTA, but rather a new contract....we do not get to vote? I can see if during JCBA they can not reach an agreement and it goes to arbitration that we would not get a vote. However if this is an entirely new agreement, even if it only changes say pay, we will not have the right to ratify that new agreement....thats the deal?

As I understood it, we will get a say if the terms of the MTA change. If not, then the MTA will stand including the arbitration ruling under the MTA.

Regardless, same rules apply. If the Union leadership passes a contract with relaxed scope and it goes against the majority of the group, then they are to blame. As such, so are the greedy pilots that had their ear and influence. Again, it's no shock the company wants this. To scream at them is a waste. It's your counterparts and Union that control the fate of scope. Just cause they ask, or in this case leverage it with pay raises, does not mean you say yes. It's that simple. If they say yes, the it's all greed.

I could be wrong, but I believe member ratification is only required for agreements under Section 6. This doesn't fall under that. There was a motion passed that will allow the BOD to pass it on to the membership IF they deem it necessary to do so.........

Monkey Wrench
10-02-2014, 02:57 PM
Eight more new routes launch today

Today, we add a total of eight additional routes to our network, including the addition of a new city on our map, Bismarck, North Dakota (BIS). The routes launching today are as follows:

CLT to both Evansville, Indiana (EVV), and Fort Wayne, Indiana (FWA), operated daily as US Airways Express with Bombardier CRJ-200 aircraft

DFW and ORD to BIS, operated daily as American Eagle with Embraer ERJ-145 aircraft

LAX to both Edmonton, Alberta, Canada (YEG), and Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada (YVR), operated daily as US Airways Express with Bombardier CRJ-900 aircraft

PHL and FWA, operated twice-daily as US Airways Express with Bombardier CRJ-200 aircraft

PHX and Cleveland (CLE), operated daily by US Airways with Airbus A320 aircraft

The Drizzle
10-02-2014, 03:08 PM
Eight more new routes launch today

Today, we add a total of eight additional routes to our network, including the addition of a new city on our map, Bismarck, North Dakota (BIS). The routes launching today are as follows:

CLT to both Evansville, Indiana (EVV), and Fort Wayne, Indiana (FWA), operated daily as US Airways Express with Bombardier CRJ-200 aircraft

DFW and ORD to BIS, operated daily as American Eagle with Embraer ERJ-145 aircraft

LAX to both Edmonton, Alberta, Canada (YEG), and Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada (YVR), operated daily as US Airways Express with Bombardier CRJ-900 aircraft

PHL and FWA, operated twice-daily as US Airways Express with Bombardier CRJ-200 aircraft

PHX and Cleveland (CLE), operated daily by US Airways with Airbus A320 aircraft

http://i.imgur.com/p6fW4pd.png

Saabs
10-06-2014, 03:17 PM
Scope

While we have seen the comments Scott Kirby made in several venues where he expresses a company desire to add some seats to aircraft flown by regional carriers, there have been no proposals made whatsoever in the JCBA process on anything relating to Section 1/Scope.

Hueypilot
10-06-2014, 04:42 PM
They also stated they are "waiting for the company to put their major proposals on the table". I'm guessing that if the company is going to ask for scope concessions, that's when they will do it. The comments Kirby has been making I think have a lot to do with trying to measure the mood concerning scope. It will help them develop a strategy in their negotiations.

Al Czervik
10-06-2014, 10:03 PM
Seems like a lot of things shot down for a company that "wants this done."

TRZ06
10-07-2014, 12:10 AM
I could be wrong, but I believe member ratification is only required for agreements under Section 6. This doesn't fall under that. There was a motion passed that will allow the BOD to pass it on to the membership IF they deem it necessary to do so.........
That's how I have heard it also. Membership vote would be more like a straw poll to give the BOD "direction." Legally. the timeline is reaching its conclusion so I doubt it will go to the membership. Scope vs. MTA, the $$$ would have to be significant even for a few seats...but then again, the MTA is lousy and it would be a long time before we see negotiations again. Obviously, where you are seniority wise is key to how see it, and the SLI is another factor that will make a difference.

A321
10-07-2014, 05:19 AM
I predict there will be two outcomes:

Either

1) AAL management offers best final offer of Delta +5% with 2016 parity as well, if APA gives up 5 seats in scope...no profit sharing. Last minute offer at end of 30 day window. SK has mentioned exactly just this in crew meetings.

2) AAL management says ok fine then, we will go to arbitration and you will get industry standard as in just what was spelled out in the MOU.

Option 1 gives good pay raises and many older pilots who don't give a hoot about the continuous erosion of scope will want it. Option 2 holds the line philosophically on scope but the pilots will still be behind DAL pay.

AA/US pilots are in a good place, but also in a good corner in terms of negotiating a great contract AND holding line at 76 seats.

justfun
10-07-2014, 07:58 AM
A321,

Scope cannot be arbitrated!!!!! That was in the MTA ( merger transition agreement ), the other stuff is all up for grabs. The only way that scope can possibly be open for arbitration is if we talk about it during these negotiations. So don't expect them to discuss this topic at this time.

We will see where this process takes us pretty quickly, once the FA's are done voting. They have show that they are willing to pay Delta rates, so let's what AAL actually slides across the table. LOS has been costed out $19 million, which is a drop in the bucket when it comes to a third quarter profit of over $1B! If they are willing to compensate us accordingly then this get done pretty quick. If not, then this will take a while and the membership will have to get involved. I believe that we should spin up SPC, ( strike preparedness committee ) just so what we can get the word about in a more timely fashion, and then if need be we can step it up after that.

Scope relief is a nonstarter, I believe that Kirby knows it, he is just fishing to see what the response would be. If they like those planes then we can fly them. I don't care who is behind the door, below the floor or behind the counter. All that matters is who is behind the controls of that plane, period end of story.

Best to all of us

AUpilot1
10-07-2014, 08:13 AM
Re-read A321's post. He never said that scope could be arbitrated. It's was quite the opposite.

Diesel1030
10-07-2014, 08:34 AM
I predict there will be two outcomes:

Either

1) AAL management offers best final offer of Delta +5% with 2016 parity as well, if APA gives up 5 seats in scope...no profit sharing. Last minute offer at end of 30 day window. SK has mentioned exactly just this in crew meetings.

2) AAL management says ok fine then, we will go to arbitration and you will get industry standard as in just what was spelled out in the MOU.

Option 1 gives good pay raises and many older pilots who don't give a hoot about the continuous erosion of scope will want it. Option 2 holds the line philosophically on scope but the pilots will still be behind DAL pay.

AA/US pilots are in a good place, but also in a good corner in terms of negotiating a great contract AND holding line at 76 seats.

I'm patient..option 2 is fine with me. At this point we should be giving up nothing for an ILC. NO SCOPE GIVES PERIOD.

If Parker/Kirby want to see this place implode they will get it by not getting a deal done within the timelines. Especially considering how good a deal the F/As received. I believe they are smarter than this but we shall see. I'm already disappointed with their list of rejected items so far.

A321
10-07-2014, 08:43 AM
A321,

Scope cannot be arbitrated!!!!! That was in the MTA ( merger transition agreement ), the other stuff is all up for grabs. The only way that scope can possibly be open for arbitration is if we talk about it during these negotiations. So don't expect them to discuss this topic at this time.

We will see where this process takes us pretty quickly, once the FA's are done voting. They have show that they are willing to pay Delta rates, so let's what AAL actually slides across the table. LOS has been costed out $19 million, which is a drop in the bucket when it comes to a third quarter profit of over $1B! If they are willing to compensate us accordingly then this get done pretty quick. If not, then this will take a while and the membership will have to get involved. I believe that we should spin up SPC, ( strike preparedness committee ) just so what we can get the word about in a more timely fashion, and then if need be we can step it up after that.

Scope relief is a nonstarter, I believe that Kirby knows it, he is just fishing to see what the response would be. If they like those planes then we can fly them. I don't care who is behind the door, below the floor or behind the counter. All that matters is who is behind the controls of that plane, period end of story.

Best to all of us

The FAs got industry leading yes, but they didn't have scope to worry about for leverage. The 5 seat advantage for leverage lies with the pilots. Do you think they are just going to give us DAL + 5% without asking for something to trade? The FAs had nothing to trade that management wanted.

On another subject, can someone describe LOS to me? It hasn't been described to me, I just keep hearing about it. Thanks.

bedrock
10-07-2014, 08:48 AM
Many thought they'd get their 1000 PIC and would jump to the majors so they wouldn't have to live where they crapped.




Love this statement! You just summed up more succinctly than an entire page, why not to trade concessions for a quick upgrade.

justfun
10-07-2014, 09:47 AM
A321,

The leverage we have are the throttles! Scope will not be discussed at this time, so I am not worried about losing any portion of what we have there. This group ( parker and kirby ) has been told over and over again that they can expect again if we get tired of their crap. All we have to do is just do our jobs period end of story. We stop helping all of the other departments out and just focus on flying safely and things will come to a slow grinding roll. So that is our leverage we don't need to discuss scope. We can talk about the next generation of 175's that is fine because they fall outside of the scope parameters. We have already told them we will fly them no problem. This is a self correcting problem just so long as we hold the line on scope. We know it and so do they, that is why Kirby is out there on his fishing expadiation.

So if the FA's didn't have any leverage then how did they get the payrates? Parker said that when started to make money like Delta then we would get paid like Delta. Well it looks like we are making money like them, so we will see how long it takes for them to pony up the bucks.

Talk to your reps on LOS, they can talk to that much better than me.

Hueypilot
10-07-2014, 10:22 AM
Keep in mind this is all just third-hand rumor-mill stuff...but I've flown with a few guys tied into what's going on. They are all pretty optimistic we'll see a JCBA fairly quick, and that Kirby's scope talk has mostly been to "test the waters" and see how receptive we are to it.

This management group is all about trying to complete labor negotiations fast so they can move on to other things. There are bigger issues within the merger and they don't want to get hung up on labor problems.

I think the scope thing will be thrown out there. APA will probably tell them no, and in the end we'll wind up getting some kind of Delta+ contract, without profit sharing. It seems Parker is pretty adamant about not doing profit sharing. He'd rather pay a premium above Delta than give us a share of the profits. Whatever. In any case, I'm willing to bet we'll see something halfway decent approved over the next month or two. I don't think it'll go to arbitration.

Saabs
10-07-2014, 11:00 AM
Keep in mind this is all just third-hand rumor-mill stuff...but I've flown with a few guys tied into what's going on. They are all pretty optimistic we'll see a JCBA fairly quick, and that Kirby's scope talk has mostly been to "test the waters" and see how receptive we are to it.

This management group is all about trying to complete labor negotiations fast so they can move on to other things. There are bigger issues within the merger and they don't want to get hung up on labor problems.

I think the scope thing will be thrown out there. APA will probably tell them no, and in the end we'll wind up getting some kind of Delta+ contract, without profit sharing. It seems Parker is pretty adamant about not doing profit sharing. He'd rather pay a premium above Delta than give us a share of the profits. Whatever. In any case, I'm willing to bet we'll see something halfway decent approved over the next month or two. I don't think it'll go to arbitration.
How will we see something in the next month or two and it not be arbitrated? Am I missing something or??

EMBFlyer
10-07-2014, 11:10 AM
How will we see something in the next month or two and it not be arbitrated? Am I missing something or??

Both sides can agree to extend the timeline.

inline five
10-07-2014, 11:25 AM
F/As have a large increase in medical costs coming with their new contract from what they've told me. They got raises but a good portion were wiped out.

That being said I was shocked the company acted so swiftly to get them a new contract. Seems like they are playing a bit more hardball with us.

plnegoofy
10-07-2014, 12:46 PM
If it was US Airways FA's telling you that its probably true. As an former US Airways pilot myself, my medical change this year from HSA plan(1500 deductible) at Airways to AA Standard plan(800 deductible), will be a change of 17.50 + 20 for HSA pot (35.50 total) to over 80.00 for just the plan alone...over 2 times the out of pocket expense for me if I want to fund my HSA pot! YAY!...I will not give anything back to the company during contract talks...I have given enough...ESPECIALLY ON SCOPE!

inline five
10-07-2014, 01:05 PM
I just found their rates. The topped out F/As are getting about an ~$8,000 raise (assuming min guarantee) by DOS+4, works out to about a +18% but that's only for the topped out ones. There is a big jump from year 12 to year 13 (topped out) of $9/hr. So I could see for anyone less than 13 years a large chunk will go to medical costs.

I would hope our raises are spread much more evenly, personally I would like to see F/Os at 80% of CAs not 70% and have the bulk of the raises go to the right seat guys. I think the industry needs to trend that way.

We've stuck with my wife's plan so far, I don't know why AA's medical costs are so high for pilots. They are out of line IMO. I was expecting better benefits than East had but they are not, heck even my commuter had better benefits at a lower cost. They had a zero deductible EPO plan that was basically an HMO/PPO with BCs/BS with limited $15 co-pays and that was it. My wife's $40k+ surgery cost $0 out of pocket. For a single person it was $110/month.

Also keep in mind benefits hit F/Os disproportionally from CAs since we make significantly less. They should reduce medical premiums to have CA pay $[X] and F/Os pay X%-70% of that figure depending on your step.

MarineGrunt
10-07-2014, 02:27 PM
I just found their rates....

Anywhere I can view the FA rates? Been trying to convince the wife's friend to leave the regionals..

Leonardo
10-07-2014, 03:28 PM
The reason that scope relief is being pursued now is the E175E2. It will not be delivered until 2018/2020.

It is currently above the AA scope limit.

The E175E2 is 88 seats in a one class configuration. Or 80 in a two class configuration. The MTOW is 97,730 lbs.

The E175E2 is powered by the PW1000G, a "geared turbofan" engine. Pratt & Whitney claims the PW1000G is 10% to 15% more fuel efficient than current engines used on regional jets and single-aisle jets, as well as being substantially quieter.

Is AA scope based on number of seats or MTOW? If it's seats, does that mean number of seats installed or how many seats will fit in it?

I'm curious about the same for US Airways.

deltajuliet
10-07-2014, 04:06 PM
They could always add a few more first class seats to bring down total seats, that's what they're doing with CRJ-900's already. Nonetheless, don't give an inch. The degradation of the industry has been visible for years.

Can anyone explain how pay parity works? For example, pay parity with Delta in 2016. If lower, you get your pay brought up to their level? But then it stops at 2016 rates?

The Drizzle
10-07-2014, 04:41 PM
Can anyone explain how pay parity works? For example, pay parity with Delta in 2016. If lower, you get your pay brought up to their level? But then it stops at 2016 rates?

The MOU has us reaching parity on 1/1/2016 and then a 3.5% raise in each of 2017 and 2018.

deltajuliet
10-07-2014, 06:03 PM
Suppose Delta's new contract wasn't in effect until after 1/1/2016...

CanoePilot
10-07-2014, 06:08 PM
when they say delta + 5% does that include work rule improvements or are we stuck with the ones we have now?

inline five
10-07-2014, 06:37 PM
I saw on a Spirit thread a CA worked open trips and made 174 credit for the month. I don't think we can even go over 90. At my commuter I averaged 150 credit for many months in a row not even working over vacation. Soft pay is where the money is, who cares about rates?

inline five
10-07-2014, 06:39 PM
Anywhere I can view the FA rates? Been trying to convince the wife's friend to leave the regionals..
I just Google'd the APFA and went to the contract page IIRC where you can download the TA.

Starts at $23 with an increase to $49 by year 12 then year 13 it will go to $58 in 4 years

Basically $50k at min guarantee by year 13 but on the East side I've known some hit 120 credit routinely. That's mid-$80's...no wonder they can't pay the regional pilots anything...

kingairip
10-07-2014, 07:23 PM
I saw on a Spirit thread a CA worked open trips and made 174 credit for the month. I don't think we can even go over 90. At my commuter I averaged 150 credit for many months in a row not even working over vacation. Soft pay is where the money is, who cares about rates?

That's exactly right. I got a buddy at FedEx who has credited 160 hours in a month. Look at their pay rates and think about those apples.

Saabs
10-08-2014, 03:54 PM
Awesome email sent out tonight regarding scope!

A321
10-08-2014, 04:40 PM
Yes! This puts this rumor to bed. Just emailed out an hour ago:

http://public.alliedpilots.org/APA/Portals/0/logo.gif

A MESSAGE FROM YOUR APA LEADERSHIP

The newly expanded APA board of directors with duly designated chairmen and vice chairmen from CLT, PHL and PHX is convening this week for the first time.

As a board, we are united concerning Scope. We understand and share your concerns prompted by senior management's recent comments about our industry-standard 76-seat limit on regional affiliate aircraft. Management has indicated a desire to dilute that limitation and obtain a below-industry-standard Scope Clause in the ongoing joint collective bargaining agreement negotiations.

This afternoon, the full APA board met with American Airlines CEO Doug Parker. Our conversation with Mr. Parker was frank and cordial and covered a wide range of items. Foremost among them: We informed him that APA will not agree to any Scope concessions. Our actions now concerning Scope will help define the profession for the balance of our careers and for the next generation of aviators, and we are committed to securing industry-leading pay and work rules.

With the merger of American Airlines and US Airways succeeding beyond the most optimistic forecasts, management needs to address APA's priorities concerning quality of life, work rules, and pay and benefits. Our pilots' sacrifices, our efforts on the merger's behalf and the vital role we play in the airline's success must be appropriately acknowledged.

Dashdog
10-08-2014, 05:22 PM
I saw on a Spirit thread a CA worked open trips and made 174 credit for the month. I don't think we can even go over 90. At my commuter I averaged 150 credit for many months in a row not even working over vacation. Soft pay is where the money is, who cares about rates?

+1 ^^^^^^^^^^^

deltajuliet
10-08-2014, 05:25 PM
Incredibly glad to hear. Godspeed and stick to your guns!

Grumble
10-08-2014, 07:29 PM
This has to be a collective effort amongst all three carriers (AA/UAL/DAL). Every inch you guys can gain this contract in scope gives DAL and UAL more ground to gain when they go back, then AA again down the line. Give up nothing!!!

Saabs
10-08-2014, 07:33 PM
This has to be a collective effort amongst all three carriers (AA/UAL/DAL). Every inch you guys can gain this contract in scope gives DAL and UAL more ground to gain when they go back, then AA again down the line. Give up nothing!!!

Highly doubt we gain anything. ...

LIOG41
10-08-2014, 07:53 PM
Highly doubt we gain anything. ...

Just wait and see before being negative about our future contract. APA has balls.

Hueypilot
10-08-2014, 07:55 PM
I think the APA has plenty of leverage to not only say no to scope, but to get decent compensation and work rules improvements. I'm not naive enough to think we'll get everything we ask for, and it might not even beat Delta, but considering we have so much to improve on, if they negotiate well, I think we can do better than what the MOU brings us.

meyers9163
10-09-2014, 02:53 AM
Highly doubt we gain anything. ...

Hmmmm even if we go to arbitration do you not see an arbitrator saying UAL/DAL have this, AA doesn't and AA is projected to make more money so you don't get such? Doesn't add up. We're going to get improvements guaranteed.

Saabs
10-09-2014, 04:43 AM
Hmmmm even if we go to arbitration do you not see an arbitrator saying UAL/DAL have this, AA doesn't and AA is projected to make more money so you don't get such? Doesn't add up. We're going to get improvements guaranteed.

Was his responding to his comment on scope - and i highly doubt we gain anything in that department.

kingairip
10-09-2014, 04:54 AM
Hmmmm even if we go to arbitration do you not see an arbitrator saying UAL/DAL have this, AA doesn't and AA is projected to make more money so you don't get such? Doesn't add up. We're going to get improvements guaranteed.

You do know that the terms of the arbitration require that the result be "cost neutral" compared to the MOU? So what you're asking is...would an arbitrator completely ignore the rules of the arbitration and find in our favor anyway? Uhhh....unlikely....

The point is...any improvements to the MOU will have to come via negotiation, not arbitration.

meyers9163
10-09-2014, 07:54 AM
You do know that the terms of the arbitration require that the result be "cost neutral" compared to the MOU? So what you're asking is...would an arbitrator completely ignore the rules of the arbitration and find in our favor anyway? Uhhh....unlikely....

The point is...any improvements to the MOU will have to come via negotiation, not arbitration.

Correct but to ASSUME you are giving up anything is insane. There will be gains. All this end of the world and negativity in a time of record profit are insane. APA knows what they're doing and this crying because Kirby wants 81 seats thinking APA was entertaining such as premature. There's no way they're entertaining anything such....

APA has been very blunt on this from the start.... Where these wild rumors start are mind blowing.

LIOG41
10-09-2014, 08:00 AM
Correct but to ASSUME you are giving up anything is insane. There will be gains. All this end of the world and negativity in a time of record profit are insane. APA knows what they're doing and this crying because Kirby wants 81 seats thinking APA was entertaining such as premature. There's no way they're entertaining anything such....

APA has been very blunt on this from the start.... Where these wild rumors start are mind blowing.

Spot on man. My sentiments exactly.

kingairip
10-09-2014, 10:28 AM
Correct but to ASSUME you are giving up anything is insane. There will be gains. All this end of the world and negativity in a time of record profit are insane. APA knows what they're doing and this crying because Kirby wants 81 seats thinking APA was entertaining such as premature. There's no way they're entertaining anything such....

APA has been very blunt on this from the start.... Where these wild rumors start are mind blowing.

I agree with all that. But, earlier, you said an arbitrator would give us gains to match Delta. That's not going to happen. Arbitration will not add any cost to the MOU terms. That's not being negative. That's a fact you can take to the bank. We're going to have to get our improvements in negotiation. And, I think we will. Anyway, we'll know a lot more come next Thursday.

meyers9163
10-09-2014, 10:36 AM
I agree with all that. But, earlier, you said an arbitrator would give us gains to match Delta. That's not going to happen. Arbitration will not add any cost to the MOU terms. That's not being negative. That's a fact you can take to the bank. We're going to have to get our improvements in negotiation. And, I think we will. Anyway, we'll know a lot more come next Thursday.

I agree but they could encourage strongly 12/13 days off to be implemented and other items that have coincidently not been.... Also lots of non cost items we lack that are standard by the other two... I think we actually agree I just worded that previous post poorly. :(

kingairip
10-09-2014, 10:44 AM
I agree but they could encourage strongly 12/13 days off to be implemented and other items that have coincidently not been.... Also lots of non cost items we lack that are standard by the other two... I think we actually agree I just worded that previous post poorly.

Fair enough! We should get some improvements soon. Dougie seems to be in a giving mood (at least with the FAs anyway) and he's on record as saying we should be compensated as much as our peers. Plus, he really wants this merger to work. Can't wait to see what happens next week.

Pilot X
10-09-2014, 11:57 AM
My guess is both sides agree to an extension to negotiate more :p

Allegheny
10-15-2014, 05:19 AM
I agree, both sides will continue to negotiate.

As far as scope, their may be some lessening of the pressure on the company side. As oil / Jet Fuel prices decline the cost of operating the 50 declines also. When you consider that the effective lease rates on these aircraft are now about 1/3 of what they used to be, (see below) it makes them profitable on a few more routes.

Is the 50 seat Regional Jet Really so Bad with No Future ? | Aviation Doctor's Blog (http://aviationdoctor.wordpress.com/2013/01/29/is-the-50-seat-regional-je)

With values of 50 seat regional jets now below $5.0 million and as low as $2m on the early CRJ-100s and ERJ-135s, lease rates are now $30k-45k per month for CRJ-100s, $35k to $55k for CRJ-200s and $40k to $55k for the ERJ-145s, the new economics of the aircraft is a little better than when lease rates were $150k to $190k per month and many airlines tied themselves to long term leases at the high lease rates. The difference in the lower lease rates of up to $1.2 million a year can compensates for a lot of fuel and maintenance costs, in fact based on 2,400 flight hours a year that is a lease cost saving of $500 per block hour, so there is life in the RJ aircraft, if it is below the 40,000 cycles for instance on the CRJs, and you have long sectors with good yields.

Kirby addressed this in a Quarterly Conference call with industry analysts in 2012. Lower fuel prices may mean that Parker and Kirby don't dig in over scope as much as they might otherwise.