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LIOG41
11-11-2014, 11:05 AM
Sky Talk: American presents contract proposal to pilots (http://blogs.star-telegram.com/sky_talk/2014/11/american-presents-contract-proposal-to-pilots.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter)

NOVEMBER 11, 2014

American presents contract proposal to pilots

American Airlines has formally presented a contract proposal to its pilots union which is considering whether or not it will send proposal to its members for a vote.

According to a letter sent by American president Scott Kirby to the Allied Pilots Association on Tuesday, the contract proposal would give pilots the highest pay rate among legacy carriers.

"It is my hope that as we build a stronger, more trusting relationship that, together, we will be able to reach the best economic considerations for the 100,000 employees of American and the company in the future," Kirby wrote in the letter obtained by the Star-Telegram.

The proposal does not include the company's initial request to add 5 more seats to the regional jet work scope section of the contract that would allow regional carriers, like Envoy Air and Piedmont Airlines, to fly jets with 81 seats instead of the current scope of 76 seats.

Kirby said that adding those five seats would translate into tens of millions of dollars in new revenue annually to the airline.

"Even though we believe the scope request is in the best interest of all involved, we believe that establishing trust with our employees is even more important," Kirby wrote. "Today's proposal ommits a request to add five seats to the 76-seat jets as a sign of good faith to demonstrate the trust we want to build."

The APA's board is meeting on Wednesday to consider the proposal. The two sides had previously agreed to a 30-day negotiating extension that lasts through November 15.

If the APA decides by the end of the week to send the proposal to members for a ratification vote, there is another extension for 45 days. And if a contract agreement is reached outside of arbitration, pay rates would become effective on December 1, regardless of the actual effective date of the contract.

Read more here: Sky Talk: American presents contract proposal to pilots (http://blogs.star-telegram.com/sky_talk/2014/11/american-presents-contract-proposal-to-pilots.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter#storylink=cpy)


eaglefly
11-11-2014, 12:09 PM
Smart move. While those extra seats would have provided more $, the cost of trust would have likely negated that and then some and as I stated on another thread, considering the direction of the regionals, I'm not sure those extra seats would be that important in the long run anyway. Now the question is aside from the pay issue, what other details exist that might muck up this offer ?

Hopefully, the RJ seat issue wasn't a red herring masking something just as objectionable. If there are no major issues, then I'd expect the pilots to get their say and odds are in favor of ratification. What Parker will have gotten in that case is an IOU card (or get out of jail free, if that works for you) for unforeseen threats and situations in the future. If it essentially mimics Deltas (except more pay, but no profit sharing) in other financial numbers like work rule value, it will be tough for pilots to vilify Parker for this offer.

We will have to see the details though.

Saabs
11-11-2014, 12:19 PM
Is there a ballpark % that it needs to be to equal Delta? As in Delta +15% to make up for lack of profit sharing?

Edit: just curious about 2014, I realize this changes every year. Just go to the Delta contract 2015 thread to see how much they are getting.


Skubajet
11-11-2014, 12:25 PM
Is there a ballpark % that it needs to be to equal Delta? As in Delta +15% to make up for lack of profit sharing?

^^^^^
This plus Delta's payrate increases in their new contract AND their work rules.

asacimesp
11-11-2014, 12:26 PM
Well that's the question of the day now I guess! Most Delta guys say they get at least an extra month of pay... That equates to 8.3% per "month" of extra pay.

eaglefly
11-11-2014, 12:28 PM
Is there a ballpark % that it needs to be to equal Delta? As in Delta +15% to make up for lack of profit sharing?

Profit sharing is an annual variable, whereas set pay rates are constant, so I think its tough to quantify that. I'm more concerned about the other details and MOST especially the contract language. After decades at Eagle, I have a sore spot for deliberately ambiguous contract language designed to favor management and maximize victory in arbitration disputes.

Diesel1030
11-11-2014, 12:29 PM
My public school math skills came up with around 18-20% to get close to what DL makes with PS.

I'm curious to see the details. Probably a red herring, but glad to see management at least has the face of trying to work with the pilot group.

InformationEcho
11-11-2014, 12:41 PM
A stronger more trusting relationship? So Jerry Glass is involved why exactly?

Saabless
11-11-2014, 01:06 PM
When can we expect to hear the details of their offer? I wonder if it is negotiable, or their one and only offer. Glad they backed off scope!

Pilot X
11-11-2014, 01:15 PM
When can we expect to hear the details of their offer? I wonder if it is negotiable, or their one and only offer. Glad they backed off scope!

Tomorrow night 7pm

Al Czervik
11-11-2014, 02:27 PM
WSJ is saying DL +3%

5 seat scope is off the table.. What about the scope details of 76 seats?

Route66
11-11-2014, 02:35 PM
Profit sharing is an annual variable, whereas set pay rates are constant, so I think its tough to quantify that. I'm more concerned about the other details and MOST especially the contract language. After decades at Eagle, I have a sore spot for deliberately ambiguous contract language designed to favor management and maximize victory in arbitration disputes.
I will wait for the proposal to reach my inbox but if the flight attendant logic prevails in the pilot ranks and a hold out for profit sharing is the reason, I expect arbitration is the lesser cost of for the company then the current proposal. If you've been hired by the New American then all I can say is "welcome to the big leagues".

NC43rd
11-11-2014, 03:04 PM
I would expect Delta +3% with little improvements to existing work rules.

Al Czervik
11-11-2014, 03:04 PM
It's on APA site

texaspilot76
11-11-2014, 03:14 PM
What do you use to login to the APA website? I tried my AA employee number and it didn't work.

Arado 234
11-11-2014, 03:16 PM
What do you use to login to the APA website? I tried my AA employee number and it didn't work.

Has anyone here received an APA welcome letter? All I get are their emails...

CanoePilot
11-11-2014, 03:39 PM
It's worse than 5 extra seats. They want to be able to add more 70 and 76 seat RJ's. So yeah they don't want more seats to the current RJ fleet they want to be able to have a BIGGER rj fleet with the current seats.

KiloAlpha
11-11-2014, 04:00 PM
It's worse than 5 extra seats. They want to be able to add more 70 and 76 seat RJ's. So yeah they don't want more seats to the current RJ fleet they want to be able to have a BIGGER rj fleet with the current seats.

Source? (Filler)

blastoff
11-11-2014, 04:01 PM
Source? (Filler)

The actual proposal on the APA site.

OrdAAPilot
11-11-2014, 04:02 PM
It's posted on the APA Website.

KiloAlpha
11-11-2014, 04:08 PM
It's posted on the APA Website.

Thanks. Just looked at it.

Can someone break down the increase in 70 seat RJ flying in terms of this offer and what the MOU outlines.

aa73
11-11-2014, 04:15 PM
In a nutshell, under this proposal they could eventually fly up to 600 70 seaters if we have 800 narrow bodies.

What a joke. Hello arbitration.

KiloAlpha
11-11-2014, 04:21 PM
What a joke. Hello arbitration.

I agree. I'd rather just wait until 2016 and get a raise anyway. Hopefully the the Gray Eagles don't sell out the younger guys

TenYearsGone
11-11-2014, 04:46 PM
Well that's the question of the day now I guess! Most Delta guys say they get at least an extra month of pay... That equates to 8.3% per "month" of extra pay.

Delta Profit Sharing this year for us is a bit larger. Maybe close to 2 months worth of pay..

^^^^^
This plus Delta's payrate increases in their new contract AND their work rules.

Please dont look to us for your next contract. We are already pushing for restoration plus inflation for our upcoming contract 2015. You need to leap us by at least 30-40%. This is ridiculous how the unions think it is ok to fly for paltry, stale, bankruptcy wages while the company is making TONS of cash.

It is time to reset our wages to year 2000 plus 15 years of inflation plus COLA.

We are worth every bit.

TEN

PS. Sorry for intruding on your thread

MarineGrunt
11-11-2014, 04:47 PM
Is there a timeline for arbitration? While I'm new to the airline world, and have NO experience on contract negotiations, it seems obvious to me that we would get a better deal out of arbitration....

TenYearsGone
11-11-2014, 04:49 PM
I would expect Delta +3% with little improvements to existing work rules.

Thats the problem..You should expect at least 40% increase. If you think you are only worth 3% of Delta and little improvement in you PWA, then Parker has the golden ticket to get more DUIs and still get his hefty Bonus.

You have to realize, Delta Alpa is already negotiating for 2015..Dont fall pray to our substandard C2012.

TEN

D B Cooper
11-11-2014, 04:51 PM
Isn't Delta in negotiations as well? It was my understanding they were getting a pay increase. Would the contracted rates that make us the best in the industry, be before or after a Delta finishes their negotiations. Kirby wants to establish trust then get rid of Glass and bring the 175s on our list and end the charade.

TenYearsGone
11-11-2014, 04:52 PM
Isn't Delta in negotiations as well? It was my understanding they were getting a pay increase. Would the contracted rates that make us the best in the industry, be before or after a Delta finishes their negotiations. Kirby wants to establish trust then get rid of Glass and bring the 175s on our list and end the charade.

^^^^^^This!
APA should know this little detail, dont you think?
TEN

Pro Fessional
11-11-2014, 05:06 PM
^^^^^^This!
APA should know this little detail, dont you think?
TEN

Delta is amendable 1/1/16. Not in negotiations now.

CanoePilot
11-11-2014, 05:21 PM
Looks like parker wants to run this airline like he did US air. This place is gonna make united look like a model for the industry.

Cheddar
11-11-2014, 05:31 PM
In a nutshell, under this proposal they could eventually fly up to 600 70 seaters if we have 800 narrow bodies.

What a joke. Hello arbitration.

Agreed. The 5 seat Scope grab talk wasn't wishful thinking from the company, it was a barely clever politician's ploy. Create a problem, solve said problem... all the while look magnanimous to anyone but the affected party.

We aren't even close to Delta rates if you consider our work rules and profit sharing. I've heard (from some pretty smart numbers guys) that Delta 2015 rates +12-15% would have been a very conservative starting point for ILC compensation. That doesn't even take into account Delta's C2015 that will probably blow that out of the water. Obviously, the company's proposed rates are no where close to that.

- Our work reserve rules are a joke. We had a Spirit CA on the Jumpseat last week who told us they had a minimum of 4 days off on reserve?!? ***, Really?!? Not knocking Spirit at all - good for them, but the World's "most super spectacular airline" isn't even close to that. A buddy at SWA told me they only work 15 days a month on reserve? ***... I've see the MIA reserve lines - Holy Crap they suck!!!

- 5 hours guarantee a day isn't horrible, until you realize that its per "working day" - so that 30 hour layover pays nada - No thanks, how about 5:15 for everyday on duty.

The list goes on, and on... No LOS for furloughs, etc.

American was my number one choice for many reasons, and I want the company to go KDA, make billions and all the other rah-rah stuff but man, this proposal is seriously lacking for a management group that swore up and down a few hours ago about changing culture. I for one don't want to give up anything to make close to what we'll make in Jan of 16.

Saabs
11-11-2014, 05:32 PM
Thats the problem..You should expect at least 40% increase. If you think you are only worth 3% of Delta and little improvement in you PWA, then Parker has the golden ticket to get more DUIs and still get his hefty Bonus.

You have to realize, Delta Alpa is already negotiating for 2015..Dont fall pray to our substandard C2012.

TEN

You expected parker to come out with delta + 40%??? I won't even mention the cost neutral arbitration or what your smoking. I don't think anyone expected parker to give us what you want us to expect from him.

t6marine
11-11-2014, 06:54 PM
Agreed with Saabs, unlike the FA contract that is market based in terms of pay and work rules specifics after it was voted down (albeit they lost in the pay scale realm for industry leading)...... The pilots contract goes to the arbitrator with a COST Neutral stipulation attached to it (if this gets voted down), AKA no side gets any monetary gains out of it........ So tough decision for the board then the pilots if it gets passed on.... Will see what the board passes out later this week. Initial look seemed rather vague in terms of anything specific minus pay chart.

hockeypilot44
11-11-2014, 07:27 PM
I read Scott Kirby's bull**** letter on scope. 5 seats is good for everybody. They were the ones that chose to outsource mainline size aircraft. If they want the 5 seats transfer them to mainline like the E-190. It seems he wants a contract done before Delta's new contract. We'll see. It seems the airlines will make record profits for the next few years (this statement is opinion only). If this is true, the Delta guys will continue to see 15% plus in profit sharing. 2014 is supposed to be at least 15%. 5% was paid out early so this is the company's estimate. That is a significant chunk of money. It is not guaranteed, but it is starting to become consistent income.

Surprise
11-11-2014, 07:40 PM
This feels pathetic to me. I had been thinking better seniority movement at AAL would help offset the inferior payscale for us new hires.

But now it looks like I'd be better off at Delta, or even United, despite the longer upgrade. If either calls, it'd be hard to say no.

SilverandSore
11-11-2014, 07:53 PM
Just slide a copy of Delta's current contract back across the table and say the current offer is unacceptable. No improvement to min day and leaving it at min working day is comically ridiculous. 5:30 min day, Delta plus 20, at a bare minimum, and a gentleman's reserve system for starters.

TED74
11-11-2014, 07:56 PM
This feels pathetic to me. I had been thinking better seniority movement at AAL would help offset the inferior payscale for us new hires.

But now it looks like I'd be better off at Delta, or even United, despite the longer upgrade. If either calls, it'd be hard to say no.
What timeline to upgrade are you forecasting at each?

TenYearsGone
11-11-2014, 08:25 PM
You expected parker to come out with delta + 40%??? I won't even mention the cost neutral arbitration or what your smoking. I don't think anyone expected parker to give us what you want us to expect from him.

You are a dream employee.:)

TEN

eaglefly
11-11-2014, 08:57 PM
I will wait for the proposal to reach my inbox but if the flight attendant logic prevails in the pilot ranks and a hold out for profit sharing is the reason, I expect arbitration is the lesser cost of for the company then the current proposal. If you've been hired by the New American then all I can say is "welcome to the big leagues".

I don't give a rats ass what you do. :cool:

Peterborg
11-11-2014, 11:21 PM
Just slide a copy of Delta's current contract back across the table and say the current offer is unacceptable. No improvement to min day and leaving it at min working day is comically ridiculous. 5:30 min day, Delta plus 20, at a bare minimum, and a gentleman's reserve system for starters.

Good point...I hope everyone isn't getting wrapped up in hourly rates. Like others in here said, it's more about the credit value. A friend of mine at Delta just emailed me and mentioned his pay this month would credit about 130 hours, for 2014 he'll credit right around 1400 hours. What is AA's cap? 1080?

shiznit
11-12-2014, 02:13 AM
You are a dream employee.:)

TEN

I don't give a rats ass what you do. :cool:

Ten has good intentions, please forgive his poorly thought out comment. He is apparently unaware that you face a similar problem as the FA's in that if you don't settle on a negotiated agreement then you will end up in binding arbitration with a much lower ceiling in terms of improvements. You really will have little to no say at that point.

You guys have a Hobson's choice between more seats or more airframes outsourced at the bottom. You also need to close read the top end WB intl. Codeshare-JV-foreign owership scope.... That will stagnate you longer than 100 RJ's could ever dream of. Be careful!

Don't be mesmerized by pay rates (I think the AA guys here get it), the overall value in the contract is way more important.

Route66
11-12-2014, 02:48 AM
I don't give a rats ass what you do. :cool:

Great attitude for a commuter pilot. You'll fit right in at Spirit.

Route66
11-12-2014, 02:51 AM
Ten has good intentions, please forgive his poorly thought out comment. He is apparently unaware that you face a similar problem as the FA's in that if you don't settle on a negotiated agreement then you will end up in binding arbitration with a much lower ceiling in terms of improvements. You really will have little to no say at that point.

You guys have a Hobson's choice between more seats or more airframes outsourced at the bottom. You also need to close read the top end WB intl. Codeshare-JV-foreign owership scope.... That will stagnate you longer than 100 RJ's could ever dream of. Be careful!

Don't be mesmerized by pay rates (I think the AA guys here get it), the overall value in the contract is way more important.

You obviously DON'T fly for American. If our pilots used reason like that I'd be a senior 777 Captain by now. Very well said.

sailingfun
11-12-2014, 03:11 AM
Isn't Delta in negotiations as well? It was my understanding they were getting a pay increase. Would the contracted rates that make us the best in the industry, be before or after a Delta finishes their negotiations. Kirby wants to establish trust then get rid of Glass and bring the 175s on our list and end the charade.

Delta does not exchange openers until next April.

biigD
11-12-2014, 03:25 AM
Dumb question, but can an arbitrated award increase the number of regional airframes allowed?

Al Czervik
11-12-2014, 03:33 AM
Dumb question, but can an arbitrated award increase the number of regional airframes allowed?

Nope.

Filler.

Al Czervik
11-12-2014, 03:34 AM
Big time NO vote here. Not even in the ballpark parker.

biigD
11-12-2014, 03:43 AM
Nope.

Filler.

If that's the case, then I don't need to dig any deeper. Let's go to arbitration.

teddyballgame
11-12-2014, 04:59 AM
Hopefully the the Gray Eagles don't sell out the younger guys


Which is exactly what Kirby is counting on.

This proposal is nothing but a bum's rush to get the older folks to bite on one more substandard pay raise, before they run out of time to retirement; and, more importantly for management, before Delta gets a much bigger pay raise next year.

Every older pilot I talk with says they voted Yes on the MOU "because I needed the money". (And then in the same breath, they complain about not getting any profit sharing, which they voted to give up in that same MOU.)

Hey, at least they admit it this time. Try finding somebody who voted Yes on LOA 93.

That 75% Yes vote on the MOU was a signal to management that the pilot group will vote for anything that includes a pay raise. (And the only reason the MOU rates are as high as they are, albeit still substandard, was to sweeten the pot for the LAA pilots. The LUS pilots alone would have settled for a lot less.)

The general mood among the over- and almost-60's now is that they want every dime they can get in their last few years, the rest of the contract be damned. Kirby could hide 2,000 more 170-seat RJ's in the back of the proposal. Most pilots won't read past the page with the new pay scales on it.

And the ones who do read further will vote Yes anyway.

Because not only do they want the money, and want it now; but with regard to scope, not only is there the "it doesn't affect me" factor, but worse, there is the attitude of, "Why should I give up money for scope, to help the younger guys who went straight from Humpty-Diddle to 90-seat RJ jobs, flying all our out-sourced former routes for 16K a year, stagnating my career, and who are now going to have the 'Golden Career' that I never had?".

So it would appear that the only way to keep this turd from being shoved down your throat is for the APA BOD to keep it out of the hands of the "Let My Daddy Vote" crowd.

eaglefly
11-12-2014, 05:18 AM
Ten has good intentions, please forgive his poorly thought out comment. He is apparently unaware that you face a similar problem as the FA's in that if you don't settle on a negotiated agreement then you will end up in binding arbitration with a much lower ceiling in terms of improvements. You really will have little to no say at that point.

You guys have a Hobson's choice between more seats or more airframes outsourced at the bottom. You also need to close read the top end WB intl. Codeshare-JV-foreign owership scope.... That will stagnate you longer than 100 RJ's could ever dream of. Be careful!

Don't be mesmerized by pay rates (I think the AA guys here get it), the overall value in the contract is way more important.

My comment was to the guy getting his kicks here thinking this forum is his favorite old road.

eaglefly
11-12-2014, 05:20 AM
Great attitude for a commuter pilot. You'll fit right in at Spirit.

Considering the details of this offer, I might be better off at Sprit than AA and yours is a predictable comment from someone who likely fits in nowhere, certainly not on this forum. :cool:

eaglefly
11-12-2014, 05:22 AM
You obviously DON'T fly for American. If our pilots used reason like that I'd be a senior 777 Captain by now. Very well said.

Good thing you're not one of "our" pilots. :rolleyes:

eaglefly
11-12-2014, 05:32 AM
I don't understand Parker's rationale for even more RJ's. It's a virtual certainty that he won't be able to field even half that amount in a few years due to the ever increasing new-hire regional pilot shortage. Both DAL and UAL are moving in the opposite direction to boot.

I wonder if this is simply a deliberately inserted red herring designed to be subsequently removed on demand to make the rest of the package gleam and make it to the pilots ?

Only Jerry knows the answer to that right now. ;)

Surprise
11-12-2014, 06:32 AM
I don't understand Parker's rationale for even more RJ's. It's a virtual certainty that he won't be able to field even half that amount in a few years due to the ever increasing new-hire regional pilot shortage. Both DAL and UAL are moving in the opposite direction to boot.

I wonder if this is simply a deliberately inserted red herring designed to be subsequently removed on demand to make the rest of the package gleam and make it to the pilots ?

Only Jerry knows the answer to that right now. ;)

Actually, that's a good point. As I recall Parker even acknowledged as much on a crew news video a few months back. Although I really don't believe anything he says, or has said, anymore.

Two RJ-related red herrings in a single negotiation would be pretty impressive though.

eaglefly
11-12-2014, 07:00 AM
Actually, that's a good point. As I recall Parker even acknowledged as much on a crew news video a few months back. Although I really don't believe anything he says, or has said, anymore.

Two RJ-related red herrings in a single negotiation would be pretty impressive though.

Initially I said it was a smart move for Parker not to needlessly burn trust and potential respect by attempting a scope end run and the avoidance of asking for more seats sounded good.......until it was known he instead asked for more airframes.

Oh well, so much for that opportunity for a "first impression". :cool:

Even if it's removed, he blew that opportunity and quite frankly, no matter what if anything changes with this supposed "initial JCBA proposal" (APA term), I cannot help but see him and Kirby as inherently untrustworthy. I don't know, perhaps they're putting too much trust into the union-buster Glass they consulted ?

Glass BLEW the whole Envoy situation out his back-side and now he just screwed Parker and Kirby out of the one thing they supposedly wanted to achieve.........mutual respect, trust and a cooperative relationship. Parker and Kirby will now be cast with suspicion from here on out and that's too bad. Personally, I'd rather get a deal outside of arbitration, but I'm psychologically prepared to arbitrate. That will solidify the future of AA as a continually antagonistic carrier with the majority of the pilots sour going forward. The F/A's are there and so it goes.........all the things everyone wanted AA to be simply a pipe dream and forever in Deltas rear-view mirror. Parker and Kirby may or may not get profits, but the spirit of this carrier necessary to truly compete and provide that superior product is fast vaporizing. Just as Hortons first major mistake on the road to error was appointing Brundage, so will Glass be for Parker and Kirby.

AFAIC, it's "their" airline now and not mine.....and that will say a lot in the future as the majority of front-line employees wallow back to their past AMR attitudes and not move forward to a new AAG attitude, but....


......I guess the old adage of you get what you pay for is true. You also get the relationship you build and it seems clear Parker and Kirby aren't really interested in building anything. :(

texaspilot76
11-12-2014, 07:01 AM
I saw the proposed rates. They look really good. It is the highest among legacy airlines. Now that they have taken out the 5 seat scope proposal and offered decent pay, if they add profit sharing I would definitely vote yes.

skydude
11-12-2014, 07:22 AM
To all you yes voters on the original MOU, you have already said yes to this scope proposal. Read the contract/MOU already. The question is would an arbitrator have anything more they can do to change the scope clause or not? Based on provisions within the MOU (monetary limits) its very unlikely. So if you voted yes on the MOU, then you already voted for this.

Gallifrey
11-12-2014, 07:22 AM
Not a big fan of the company's desire to get rid of HBT in the FAR 117 requirements. Also, what are they asking for in short call reserve report times? Yikes. Also, scope. And... nope.

The APA proposal is pretty sweet. Nice to see they addressed a lot of quality of life issues for reserves as well as line holders. Definitely more in line with industry leading/industry standard than the company proposal.

Also...

Yikes.

The Drizzle
11-12-2014, 07:23 AM
I saw the proposed rates. They look really good. It is the highest among legacy airlines. Now that they have taken out the 5 seat scope proposal and offered decent pay, if they add profit sharing I would definitely vote yes.

You'd take those rates in exchange for 700 or so CRJ700/900/EMB170/175s? To give up THAT much I'd need to see 25% more pay and all the finest work rules that would make us so unproductive that my job would be protected.

Al Czervik
11-12-2014, 07:24 AM
I saw the proposed rates. They look really good. It is the highest among legacy airlines. Now that they have taken out the 5 seat scope proposal and offered decent pay, if they add profit sharing I would definitely vote yes.

I don't think you understand the details.

eaglefly
11-12-2014, 07:24 AM
I saw the proposed rates. They look really good. It is the highest among legacy airlines. Now that they have taken out the 5 seat scope proposal and offered decent pay, if they add profit sharing I would definitely vote yes.

If successful, it will cost you far more in the long-run in stagnation.
Sometimes putting shiny pieces of candy in the bowl is a good way to distract you from noticing the rat turds inside. There is no profit-sharing and the pay boost over Delta is far short of an equalizer. The needless inclusion of a scope airframe increase is less (to me) about the damage of the numerical additions, but more about the message it sends if you really look.

That message tells me these guys are untrustworthy opportunists willing to play games upon those they are supposedly attempting to gain trust. Either they're very crafty (manipulative con artists) or very stupid. If it's the former, you never can trust them no matter what they say as this is simply a form of manipulation and if it's the latter, well.......what can you say about that ?

I'm not worried about them trying to run 600 large RJ's around. That will be near impossible even with the scheme they plan on of attracting entry level pilots to them as the only entry to AA, which will fail when DAL and UAL hire directly to mainline in large numbers. Some may come , but will bail for the better mainline ( or even LCC) spot elsewhere and it will be a temporary training ground failing to achieve its purpose. No, this was a colossal error IMO because of what it truly reveals about the "new" Parker (no different then the old one) and arbitration will ensure the "new" AA has most of the same problems as the old AA did.

Once the well is poisoned, it's very difficult to un-poison it. APA and AA pilots handed him the keys to AA and he thundered down the block, did a Rockford and ran over us in the opposite direction. THAT is the message you really need to see going forward.

Snickers
11-12-2014, 07:29 AM
I saw the proposed rates. They look really good. It is the highest among legacy airlines. Now that they have taken out the 5 seat scope proposal and offered decent pay, if they add profit sharing I would definitely vote yes.

Guys, please vote no.

Al Czervik
11-12-2014, 07:31 AM
Dont buy into it tex. They aren't going to move 190's to west Texas either...

eaglefly
11-12-2014, 07:32 AM
I don't think you understand the details.

Once he became so intoxicated on the shiny candy (hourly rates), his brain shut down. Happens all the time with gullible pilots negotiating their contracts. That's why a candy man like Glass is so sought after. ;)

Unfortunately, they misread the situation and BLEW that one chance at a good first impression. No way this gets to the pilots - there would be a pitchfork party at Fort O.

eaglefly
11-12-2014, 07:34 AM
Guys, please vote no.

I don't see anything to vote on and don't think this will see the light of day at the line pilot level.....not unless the BOD is willing to risk a mass recall attempt.

Surprise
11-12-2014, 07:46 AM
As for compensation, the payscale looks ok. Today. But Delta is fixing to get more within 14 months or so. Plus they have 8-15% (or more?) on top of that in the form of profit sharing. And then there's the work rules which may allow Delta and United pilots to credit hundreds more hours per year than us.

However they want to do it, the company needs to make Box 1 on the W2 match our peers. And even then, there's other compensation that needs to be considered, like retirement contributions (ours are admittedly good), insurance, and per diem.

I guess my point is: don't be fooled by a shiny payscale. My initial take is we'd still be 15-20% behind in total compensation.

LIOG41
11-12-2014, 07:50 AM
As for compensation, the payscale looks ok. Today. But Delta is fixing to get more within 14 months or so. Plus they have 8-15% (or more?) on top of that in the form of profit sharing. And then there's the work rules which may allow Delta and United pilots to credit hundreds more hours per year than us.

However they want to do it, the company needs to make Box 1 on the W2 match our peers. And even then, there's other compensation that needs to be considered, like retirement contributions, insurance, and per diem.

I guess my point is: don't be fooled by a shiny payscale. My initial take is we'd still be 15-20% behind in total compensation.

The pay scale is not even remotely shiny compared to our "large network peers"...so it shouldn't fool anyone. If it does, you need to take a step back and look at the big picture.

Surprise
11-12-2014, 08:09 AM
The pay scale is not even remotely shiny compared to our "large network peers"...so it shouldn't fool anyone. If it does, you need to take a step back and look at the big picture.

And for that matter, screw the "large network peers". Why should JetBlue pay more on the 190? And SWA on the 737?

texaspilot76
11-12-2014, 08:17 AM
Once he became so intoxicated on the shiny candy (hourly rates), his brain shut down. Happens all the time with gullible pilots negotiating their contracts. That's why a candy man like Glass is so sought after. ;)

Unfortunately, they misread the situation and BLEW that one chance at a good first impression. No way this gets to the pilots - there would be a pitchfork party at Fort O.

No need to bicker over other details in the proposal, as they have not been published yet. I based my opinion on everything else remaining status quo. Keep in mind that whatever TA the union puts forth will be way better than what we can expect in arbitration per the MOU. The MOU is what is really screwing us. We are in a corner.

As far as the 117 thing, what does HBT stand for?

Gallifrey
11-12-2014, 08:33 AM
Hbt = home base time. Whats the company's reason for combined domestic and international ops

texaspilot76
11-12-2014, 08:37 AM
Can someone explain this HBT thing they are proposing?

eaglefly
11-12-2014, 08:39 AM
No need to bicker over other details in the proposal, as they have not been published yet. I based my opinion on everything else remaining status quo. Keep in mind that whatever TA the union puts forth will be way better than what we can expect in arbitration per the MOU. The MOU is what is really screwing us. We are in a corner.

As far as the 117 thing, what does HBT stand for?

The details are indeed known and essentially all of APA's proposals were ignored. This is NOT any type of Delta "parity" proposal from Parker, simply an offer to present Delta rates for scope concessions. Our CBA will fall FAR short of Delta pilots. Yes, it's not likely under the best of circumstances that a negotiated agreement will match Delta in all respects, but this offer is ludicrous and arbitration would result in similar rates only delayed a year.

In exchange for that slap in the face, Parker gets the old AA and he'll lose right along with us, so at least well be holding hands. :rolleyes:

HBT is "Home Base Time" used when calculating duty and rest issues. FAR's nor safety related items have no business being watered down, at least by any airline executive seeking to resolve "trust" issues.

texaspilot76
11-12-2014, 08:44 AM
The details are indeed known and essentially all of APA's proposals were ignored. This is NOT any type of Delta "parity" proposal from Parker, simply an offer to present Delta rates for scope concessions. Our CBA will fall FAR short of Delta pilots. Yes, it's not likely under the best of circumstances that a negotiated agreement will match Delta in all respects, but this offer is ludicrous and arbitration would result in similar rates only delayed a year.

In exchange for that slap in the face, Parker gets the old AA and he'll lose right along with us, so at least well be holding hands. :rolleyes:

HBT is "Home Base Time" used when calculating duty and rest issues. FAR's nor safety related items have no business being watered down, at least by any airline executive seeking to resolve "trust" issues.

Scope concession? They removed the 5 additional seat concession they were seeking. It's off the table. Seems like the company sees it's a no go for us.

KiloAlpha
11-12-2014, 08:56 AM
MOU Scope details:

25. Section 1 (Recognition and Scope) of the MTA shall be the 2012 CBA as modified in a. through f. below.

a. The maximum number of commuter aircraft as a percentage of the Mainline Narrow-Body Fleet shall not exceed 75%.

b. The maximum number of large regional commuter aircraft as a percentage of the Mainline Narrow-Body Fleet shall not exceed 30% through 2014, 35% in 2015 and 40% thereafter.


------------------------

This current offer:

1) The number of regional/small jets with greater than thirty (30) seats (as operated) up to and including seventy (70) seats (as operated) plus the number of regional/small jets operated under clause (2) below that may be operated under Section 1.D. shall not exceed seventy-five percent (75%) of the number of the Company's Narrowbody Aircraft that are Aircraft in Service.

(2) The number of such regional/small jets with greater than seventy (70) seats (as operated) up to and including seventy-six (76) seats (as operated) that may be operated under Section 1.D. shall not exceed the following percentages of the number of the Company's Narrowbody Aircraft that are Aircraft in Service in the calendar years indicated:
(a) 2013 - 2014 30% (b) 2015 35% (c) 2016 & beyond 40%

KiloAlpha
11-12-2014, 08:57 AM
MOU Scope details:

25. Section 1 (Recognition and Scope) of the MTA shall be the 2012 CBA as modified in a. through f. below.

a. The maximum number of commuter aircraft as a percentage of the Mainline Narrow-Body Fleet shall not exceed 75%.

b. The maximum number of large regional commuter aircraft as a percentage of the Mainline Narrow-Body Fleet shall not exceed 30% through 2014, 35% in 2015 and 40% thereafter.


------------------------

This current offer:

1) The number of regional/small jets with greater than thirty (30) seats (as operated) up to and including seventy (70) seats (as operated) plus the number of regional/small jets operated under clause (2) below that may be operated under Section 1.D. shall not exceed seventy-five percent (75%) of the number of the Company's Narrowbody Aircraft that are Aircraft in Service.

(2) The number of such regional/small jets with greater than seventy (70) seats (as operated) up to and including seventy-six (76) seats (as operated) that may be operated under Section 1.D. shall not exceed the following percentages of the number of the Company's Narrowbody Aircraft that are Aircraft in Service in the calendar years indicated:
(a) 2013 - 2014 30% (b) 2015 35% (c) 2016 & beyond 40%


What am I missing. The scope looks the same. I very well could be wrong, as I am writing this in a hurry.

eaglefly
11-12-2014, 09:00 AM
Scope concession? They removed the 5 additional seat concession they were seeking. It's off the table. Seems like the company sees it's a no go for us.

The seats are still there, just in a different form......more 70-seat airframes. They know scope is a sore spot and then add insult to injury by thinking we'll miss what they did. Most of us didn't.

That is NOT how one "builds trust".

Looks like you missed it though. Considering your posts on this thread, are you really this gullible and naive or are you just pulling my leg ?

AUpilot1
11-12-2014, 09:01 AM
He didn't give you all the verbiage from the MOU. Instead of adding 5 seats to the 76 seaters, they are adding 5 seats to the 30-65 seat small jet. 70-76 seat RJ's are limited to 40%, however now they can have all 75% of the RJ fleet at 70 seats or above.

PurpleTurtle
11-12-2014, 09:02 AM
This POS land grab in the midst of a $4B profit year? These carpet baggers are bigger pr!€k$ than I imagined....

I was extremely pessimistic but they exceeded every lousy expectation. Beatings will continue until you $TFU.

eaglefly
11-12-2014, 09:06 AM
What am I missing. The scope looks the same. I very well could be wrong, as I am writing this in a hurry.

They upped the seat limit on the smaller RJ's to get their increase there and by doing so also effectively would likely get more airframes. Looks like they want to make more use of E-170/CRJ-700 sized aircraft to replace some of the 50-seat and smaller as opposed to 76-seat E-175.

Again, considering the unavoidable future of the regionals, one asks "why", especially at the expense of trust ?

If they want a Delta scope, match Delta pilots CBA in all respects including profit-sharing and a "me too" clause applying Delta pilot gains concurrently to us.

KiloAlpha
11-12-2014, 09:07 AM
So MOU states 40% large RJ and this offer is 75%?

I'm lost, but understand the rhetoric being said. Just looking for the cold hard numbers

justjack
11-12-2014, 09:20 AM
Which is exactly what Kirby is counting on.

This proposal is nothing but a bum's rush to get the older folks to bite on one more substandard pay raise, before they run out of time to retirement; and, more importantly for management, before Delta gets a much bigger pay raise next year.

Every older pilot I talk with says they voted Yes on the MOU "because I needed the money". (And then in the same breath, they complain about not getting any profit sharing, which they voted to give up in that same MOU.)

Hey, at least they admit it this time. Try finding somebody who voted Yes on LOA 93.

That 75% Yes vote on the MOU was a signal to management that the pilot group will vote for anything that includes a pay raise. (And the only reason the MOU rates are as high as they are, albeit still substandard, was to sweeten the pot for the LAA pilots. The LUS pilots alone would have settled for a lot less.)

The general mood among the over- and almost-60's now is that they want every dime they can get in their last few years, the rest of the contract be damned. Kirby could hide 2,000 more 170-seat RJ's in the back of the proposal. Most pilots won't read past the page with the new pay scales on it.

And the ones who do read further will vote Yes anyway.

Because not only do they want the money, and want it now; but with regard to scope, not only is there the "it doesn't affect me" factor, but worse, there is the attitude of, "Why should I give up money for scope, to help the younger guys who went straight from Humpty-Diddle to 90-seat RJ jobs, flying all our out-sourced former routes for 16K a year, stagnating my career, and who are now going to have the 'Golden Career' that I never had?".

So it would appear that the only way to keep this turd from being shoved down your throat is for the APA BOD to keep it out of the hands of the "Let My Daddy Vote" crowd.

Not to worry- We "daddy voters" can add. That number does not even make it tempting. I wouldn't worry about this offer. Glass is looking for the lowest $$$ that will make the old pilots vote yes. This is not it. This is not even close. BTW I voted yes for the MOU - No for LOA 93. You do make a good point - we should have profit sharing right now.

ackattacker
11-12-2014, 09:22 AM
No need to bicker over other details in the proposal, as they have not been published yet. I based my opinion on everything else remaining status quo. Keep in mind that whatever TA the union puts forth will be way better than what we can expect in arbitration per the MOU. The MOU is what is really screwing us. We are in a corner.

As far as the 117 thing, what does HBT stand for?

This is not true. The MOU is strong in many areas and includes industry standard pay in 2016. It is very easy for a TA to be worse than an arbitrated JCBA. We have yet to see the details, though. History has taught us that scope is the single most important thing in a major airline contract. The second most important thing is work rules. Hourly pay is third. I think management knows this and mucking around with scope is just a tactic to get everybody riled up and distracted from the sub-par work rules they intend to try to ram through in exchange for "giving in" and "awarding" the scope and pay we already have.

Scoop
11-12-2014, 09:33 AM
This is not true. The MOU is strong in many areas and includes industry standard pay in 2016. It is very easy for a TA to be worse than an arbitrated JCBA. We have yet to see the details, though. History has taught us that scope is the single most important thing in a major airline contract. The second most important thing is work rules. Hourly pay is third. I think management knows this and mucking around with scope is just a tactic to get everybody riled up and distracted from the sub-par work rules they intend to try to ram through in exchange for "giving in" and "awarding" the scope and pay we already have.


I really hope AA passes DAL compensation by as much as possible, but keep in mind our profit sharing is huge. This year most people are looking at the equivalent of two months pay.

As a 737 FO my PS will be over $20K this year.

If you don't get PS be sure to at least use it to drive up your hourly rates.

Scoop

MarineGrunt
11-12-2014, 09:37 AM
So MOU states 40% large RJ and this offer is 75%?

I'm lost, but understand the rhetoric being said. Just looking for the cold hard numbers

The way I understand it was that the company wants to put 5 more seats on what is considered something "other than" large RJs. Basically, we'd still be giving up 5 more seats to scope, but they just put them on a smaller aircraft rather than a larger one.

75% is the number for TOTAL regional feed.

Smoke Toliet
11-12-2014, 09:56 AM
Texas pilot scares the [email protected]#$ out of me. Hope he is in the very small minority.

justfun
11-12-2014, 10:00 AM
Texas,

If you are an APA member, go onto the website and the negotiations tab. Then you can click on the different parts that have posted. This is nothing but a land grab by Dougweiser and little Scotty. They were trying to sound really nice in saying that they have taken the 5 seats off the table, but it really disengenuous of them. They want us to pay a 40% excise tax on our healthcare! This is a result of Obummer Care. The expanding of the RJ's is pure BS! With the limits they are proposing, AAL would have 920 RJ's at their disposal! Which is about the size of the mainline! The devil is in the details, and if this is what they think of us, get ready for a rough holiday season!

Surprise
11-12-2014, 10:01 AM
Texas pilot scares the [email protected]#$ out of me. Hope he is in the very small minority.

Couldn't have said it better.:)

Autothrust
11-12-2014, 10:02 AM
"Why should I give up money for scope, to help the younger guys who went straight from Humpty-Diddle to 90-seat RJ jobs, flying all our out-sourced former routes for 16K a year, stagnating my career, and who are now going to have the 'Golden Career' that I never had?".


It is disappointing to read this. I hope that this is not a widespread sentiment. To be honest there are a whole lot of us in our late 30's early 40's stuck at regionals and less than desirable carriers due to decisions made when we were in high school. We certainly didn't outsource the flying and would have much rather spent the last decade at a Major. Between the advent of the RJ and the last decades world events we are way behind and not even close to a "Golden Career". I for one am really pulling for you guys and hoping for mainline growth so that I can at least finish up somewhere good.

Al Czervik
11-12-2014, 10:08 AM
Texas pilot scares the [email protected]#$ out of me. Hope he is in the very small minority.

Yes!

Tex.... Do some research.

PurpleTurtle
11-12-2014, 10:12 AM
So MOU states 40% large RJ and this offer is 75%?

I'm lost, but understand the rhetoric being said. Just looking for the cold hard numbers

Just go to the APA negotiating home page. It's all there in black and white. It's a land grab pure and simple... In the midst of a $4B profit year, they are looking to the pilots to give up more to make it a $5B profit next year.

AA is gonna long for the days of Tom Horton, just like East guys wish they still had the good old days of Stephen Wolf.

eaglefly
11-12-2014, 10:14 AM
Texas,
They want us to pay a 40% excise tax on our healthcare!

Which wipes out the Delta "plus" rates as well. When taken as a whole, this offer clearly meets "lowball" status. Trust is gone and all that's left are two con men who hired a scammer to sell us a bill of goods.

Surprise
11-12-2014, 10:16 AM
So what's thinking from the experienced guys? Does this first shot have Glass fingerprints all over it?

kingairip
11-12-2014, 10:31 AM
The way I understand it was that the company wants to put 5 more seats on what is considered something "other than" large RJs. Basically, we'd still be giving up 5 more seats to scope, but they just put them on a smaller aircraft rather than a larger one.

75% is the number for TOTAL regional feed.

Actually...it's worse than that. Parker is limited to 75% of the Narrow Body fleet (appropriately 800 NB aircraft) in total (so called) Regional Jets...or, 600 RJs. Right now...he's limited to 40% of the Narrow Body fleet for RJs with between 66-76 seats...that's 320 "large" RJs. With this proposal, he's taking the 66-71 seat aircraft OUT of the 40% limitation and INTO the 75% limitation (which,because 600 is so high, may as well be unlimited...). With the 66-71 seat aircraft out of the limit, he can get even more 76 seat (so called) RJs. It's disgusting. Delta + 30% wouldn't be worth that...

justjack
11-12-2014, 10:49 AM
It is disappointing to read this. I hope that this is not a widespread sentiment. To be honest there are a whole lot of us in our late 30's early 40's stuck at regionals and less than desirable carriers due to decisions made when we were in high school. We certainly didn't outsource the flying and would have much rather spent the last decade at a Major. Between the advent of the RJ and the last decades world events we are way behind and not even close to a "Golden Career". I for one am really pulling for you guys and hoping for mainline growth so that I can at least finish up somewhere good.

Try not to let Parker find a new division. This is the only way that he knows how to manage. While there is a certain amount of truth to what you just quoted, remember that quote is a "he said, he said" situation. I am one of the old guys and I would say no to this offer. Furthermore there is no reason for old guys to throw you under the bus - management will do it and make you think it was our idea. I am sure we do have different objectives and that much is true but we can both be happy. They are trying to use these differences right out of the gate. Give the old guys a little more than they thought they would get in 2015 in exchange for a 2020 contract. This offer was insulting. To bring Glass in is insulting.

texaspilot76
11-12-2014, 10:49 AM
40% tax on our healthcare plans? After reviewing how crappy the current AA plans are, how in the heck could they be considered a "cadillac" plan?! They are far from it!

justjack
11-12-2014, 10:52 AM
So what's thinking from the experienced guys? Does this first shot have Glass fingerprints all over it?

YES- There was no other reason to bring him on.

KiloAlpha
11-12-2014, 11:10 AM
How long until Parker has 13,000 pilots burning 3, flying fast, and writing up planes at outstations?

70Espada
11-12-2014, 12:39 PM
Just go to the APA negotiating home page. It's all there in black and white. It's a land grab pure and simple... In the midst of a $4B profit year, they are looking to the pilots to give up more to make it a $5B profit next year.

AA is gonna long for the days of Tom Horton, just like East guys wish they still had the good old days of Stephen Wolf.

So making $billions is bad, we want someone who A) has a great plan to enter bankruptcy #2 or B) sets a path towards liquidation??? Are you for real?

PurpleTurtle
11-12-2014, 01:26 PM
So making $billions is bad, we want someone who A) has a great plan to enter bankruptcy #2 or B) sets a path towards liquidation??? Are you for real?

What?

Making $Bs is fine if the employees are respected. Lying to us about building trust and industry leading contracts, while offering a land grab concessionary contract is complete BS.

70Espada
11-12-2014, 02:07 PM
Delta Profit Sharing this year for us is a bit larger. Maybe close to 2 months worth of pay..



Please dont look to us for your next contract. We are already pushing for restoration plus inflation for our upcoming contract 2015. You need to leap us by at least 30-40%. This is ridiculous how the unions think it is ok to fly for paltry, stale, bankruptcy wages while the company is making TONS of cash.

It is time to reset our wages to year 2000 plus 15 years of inflation plus COLA.

We are worth every bit.

TEN

PS. Sorry for intruding on your thread

OK, I like the way you think, but......... APA already bargained everything away. The industry leading leftovers of the AWA contract (yes, I know there wasn't much) and the remaining good things of legacy US..... GONE, or at least soon to be. Trip duty rigs, IVR jump seat system, LTD, etc, etc. Buh bye. They also agreed to binding arbitration, so if we turn this down, how do you think we'll fair with an arbitrator? Don't get me wrong, I'm thankfull for the merger and understand the APA wanting to get rid of Horton, but we won't be matching you for a long time. Could you walk in my resume? :)

70Espada
11-12-2014, 02:08 PM
What?

Making $Bs is fine if the employees are respected. Lying to us about building trust and industry leading contracts, while offering a land grab concessionary contract is complete BS.

Understand, agree with you on that.

TenYearsGone
11-12-2014, 02:21 PM
OK, I like the way you think, but......... APA already bargained everything away. The industry leading leftovers of the AWA contract (yes, I know there wasn't much) and the remaining good things of legacy US..... GONE, or at least soon to be. Trip duty rigs, IVR jump seat system, LTD, etc, etc. Buh bye. They also agreed to binding arbitration, so if we turn this down, how do you think we'll fair with an arbitrator? Don't get me wrong, I'm thankfull for the merger and understand the APA wanting to get rid of Horton, but we won't be matching you for a long time. Could you walk in my resume? :)

We are all held hostage by this, arent we?:mad: There is a way, but unfortunately many of today's pilots are timid, conservative and dont really want to rattle the cage. The era of 911, bankruptcy, layoffs, threats etc has done its job of resetting our wages.

Best of luck to all of us. I guess we have succumbed. Just make sure APA and AA give you Delta of C2015 not of C2012.
TEN

Al Czervik
11-12-2014, 03:57 PM
We are all held hostage by this, arent we?:mad: There is a way, but unfortunately many of today's pilots are timid, conservative and dont really want to rattle the cage. The era of 911, bankruptcy, layoffs, threats etc has done its job of resetting our wages.

Best of luck to all of us. I guess we have succumbed. Just make sure APA and AA give you Delta of C2015 not of C2012.
TEN

Parker has just united this group. The cage will be rattled.

Saabs
11-12-2014, 04:34 PM
I suppose listening to that conference call was a little uplifting. I love our scope dude, for anyone who hasn't heard how passionate he is listen to the audio clip of him on the apa website. He backed it up on the call, he was at a lost for words!

PurpleTurtle
11-12-2014, 04:44 PM
Parker proposed we give him the whole damn farm.

70 seat RJs up to 75% of narrow body fleet.
+ 76 seat RJs up to 40% of narrow body fleet.

Gallifrey
11-12-2014, 04:53 PM
The call was worth it. No give on scope. Pay us.

Thedude
11-12-2014, 06:08 PM
The call was worth it. No give on scope. Pay us.

Yup...

To loosely quote one of the guys...Time to pull the pin and stand back.

Firsttimeflyer
11-12-2014, 06:24 PM
I hope you guys stand strong on this. You deserve a heck of a lot more, not to mention domestic flying needs to go back to major airlines, not massive regional airlines paying subpar rates with subpar quality of life.

SMACFUM
11-12-2014, 07:28 PM
Please Please Please for the love of God, don't cave on the scope. Mainline routes, mainline planes, mainline pilots, for mainline pay

Diesel1030
11-12-2014, 07:44 PM
I was in attendance for our DFW Domicile meeting this past Monday. It was great to see the hall full of people that were dead set against scope. Hearing it from 777 Capt's who at the twighlight of their careers could give a crap about it made me feel better about where the membership is on this issue (not just the jr folks). Scope is DOA here...any form of it.

450knotOffice
11-12-2014, 07:46 PM
We're not gonna cave on scope. Trust me (us). Not only is the scope proposal a blatant land grab, so are MANY proposed revisions to our contract. Guys are up in arms over the whole damn proposal. It's DOA.

TQ Nola
11-12-2014, 08:01 PM
I'm smug, but it's not a happy smug.

I'm right there with Eaglefly on the initial impression that the offer seemed like it might be in the realm of fairness. Five hours in, when we got (as Paul Harvey liked to say, 'the REST of the story') I had to laugh. Eh, they had me going....for five hours.

The chance this turd gets squeezed out onto a contract near you is essentially zero.

Relax, fellas.

Route66
11-13-2014, 02:44 AM
I was in attendance for our DFW Domicile meeting this past Monday. It was great to see the hall full of people that were dead set against scope. Hearing it from 777 Capt's who at the twighlight of their careers could give a crap about it made me feel better about where the membership is on this issue (not just the jr folks). Scope is DOA here...any form of it.

Explain: you mean DOA is Scope is dead on arrival or the CHANGING of scope is dead on arrival. I'm not sure what you're saying.

Route66
11-13-2014, 03:00 AM
OK, I like the way you think, but......... APA already bargained everything away. The industry leading leftovers of the AWA contract (yes, I know there wasn't much) and the remaining good things of legacy US..... GONE, or at least soon to be. Trip duty rigs, IVR jump seat system, LTD, etc, etc. Buh bye. They also agreed to binding arbitration, so if we turn this down, how do you think we'll fair with an arbitrator? Don't get me wrong, I'm thankfull for the merger and understand the APA wanting to get rid of Horton, but we won't be matching you for a long time. Could you walk in my resume? :)

There it is. If you are an American pilot...finally someone who comes to the realization of the reality of the MOU. Remember, you voted for it.

The company has ALWAYS been..."you want something, give us something in return or we just go to arbitration where you get less....probably." The reason for Jerry Glass's return is in preparation for arbitration. First with the F/A's and next with us.

You can say holdout on scope until 2019 under the CBA but rest assured the company will be ready for us.

If some of you are considering job action, you better rethink you're future because the law (as it stands today, anyway) will not support you. The courts have ruled in both USAPA's, APA's and Delta's cases that you WILL BE FINED and held in contempt of court if you do.

The West pilots were more than willing to turn in ANY East pilot whom they thought were doing a job action and their former MEC Chairman even asked Parker on company video how they could report them for it.

You can't trust the pilots of APA (new or old) do do anything....why jeopardize YOUR job? That's the reality.

bassslayer
11-13-2014, 06:24 AM
I have a feeling that allowing the pilots and fa's to go to arbitration and then walk away with less than we would have had, will very seriously effect the operation. And not in good way..

TrakTrak
11-13-2014, 06:27 AM
Explain: you mean DOA is Scope is dead on arrival or the CHANGING of scope is dead on arrival. I'm not sure what you're saying.

He's saying "NO" to scope...period.

Diesel1030
11-13-2014, 07:05 AM
sorry Route 66..I don't discuss details with management. My union speaks for me. Get working on a better proposal

biigD
11-13-2014, 07:12 AM
I have a feeling that allowing the pilots and fa's to go to arbitration and then walk away with less than we would have had, will very seriously effect the operation. And not in good way..

Or we can keep rolling over on scope until all domestic flying is done by regional carriers. How do you suppose that'll effect our operation, and more specifically, our careers?

justjack
11-13-2014, 07:23 AM
There it is. If you are an American pilot...finally someone who comes to the realization of the reality of the MOU. Remember, you voted for it.

The company has ALWAYS been..."you want something, give us something in return or we just go to arbitration where you get less....probably." The reason for Jerry Glass's return is in preparation for arbitration. First with the F/A's and next with us.

You can say holdout on scope until 2019 under the CBA but rest assured the company will be ready for us.

If some of you are considering job action, you better rethink you're future because the law (as it stands today, anyway) will not support you. The courts have ruled in both USAPA's, APA's and Delta's cases that you WILL BE FINED and held in contempt of court if you do.

The West pilots were more than willing to turn in ANY East pilot whom they thought were doing a job action and their former MEC Chairman even asked Parker on company video how they could report them for it.

You can't trust the pilots of APA (new or old) do do anything....why jeopardize YOUR job? That's the reality.

This pilot group collectively gave up pay and retirement for over a decade so that these airlines could live to see another day. They worked longer hours with fewer benefits. They invested their lives in this company. When things were bad, management said, "We are all in this together." When the merger was being threatened, the company came to the employees and said,"We are all in this together." So the employees lobbied to help push the merger through.
Now when times are good this company proposes to be the only airline except for Spirit to not give employees profit sharing. Does management really think that arbitration is the way to go?

R57 relay
11-13-2014, 07:41 AM
But his point is that we've already given it to them with the cost neutral arbitration clause.

I really hope that you guys are right about Parker not wanting to go that route. If he doesn't then I think we can work something out. If he doesn't care then that is exactly where we will end up. It's how he's always done it.

The management team has realized that they can't run the new AA like they did the old US with respect to customer service, so maybe they will want to avoid ****ing off the pilots. But, they didn't with the F/As, and they are with the customers all the time.

Spoiler
11-13-2014, 07:47 AM
Nope, they won't figure it out. The preference was disunity at LUS over settlement. Same old same old. The rest of the company is on board with the New American, the FA's narrowly missed a razor thin margin of passing which would have left the Pilots as the target of greed should they not agree to something other than the arbitrated settlement. This is classic Lorenzo, demonize one group at a time. The JCBA extension played right in their hands pointing to pilots as opportunists in league with the company preventing the FA's from "me too" gets. History does repeat itself, especially if it is the same players. Patton read Rommel's book.

awax
11-13-2014, 08:09 AM
AAL guys should watch this:

>> - Videos - Section 01 - Scope (http://goo.gl/Es2svP) <<

It's an overview of the current UAL/CAL JCBA Section 1 scope language that was ratified in 2012. On the date of signing there were significant protections added with additional decreases of outsourced flying over the duration of the CBA.

Love it or hate it, DAL and UAL are "industry standard" with UAL being a bit more restrictive.

Another thing to consider is getting squeezed at both ends - regional and international flying. Carefully read the international scope for language that restricts the company from forming international joint ventures or code sharing that include revenue share. The concept of "metal in the market" means they don't get paid (as much) on a route unless they operate flights on that route.

Hold the line guys - good luck!

Route66
11-13-2014, 08:39 AM
sorry Route 66..I don't discuss details with management. My union speaks for me. Get working on a better proposal

There it is. Typical naive APA pilot to NEW AMERICAN PILOT discussion. Yes, I am a pilot for the NEW AMERICAN. Welcome to the NEW WORLD....newbie.

Route66
11-13-2014, 08:43 AM
This pilot group collectively gave up pay and retirement for over a decade so that these airlines could live to see another day. They worked longer hours with fewer benefits. They invested their lives in this company. When things were bad, management said, "We are all in this together." When the merger was being threatened, the company came to the employees and said,"We are all in this together." So the employees lobbied to help push the merger through.
Now when times are good this company proposes to be the only airline except for Spirit to not give employees profit sharing. Does management really think that arbitration is the way to go?

You have a contract with the NEW AMERICAN until 2018. You WILL NOT SEE PROFIT SHARING. They go to arbitration and they give you the cost adjustments as promised in the MOU. Some think the company doesn't WANT to see all of us go to arbitration. They have their own line in the sand they will not cross and if and when we go to arbitration the BLAME won't fall on the company, it will be on the PILOTS.

Bet on it.

GrapeNuts
11-13-2014, 08:59 AM
"Parking brake... Park"

bigscrillywilli
11-13-2014, 10:02 AM
Let's all throw our safety vests out as a show of solidarity

Gallifrey
11-13-2014, 10:39 AM
I hope the company counters with haha oops. Here's your delta contract plus 25%

texaspilot76
11-13-2014, 10:47 AM
Just a thought here:

What if we said "ok, we will allow you to add an RJ for every additional mainline aircraft you add, and if you reduce a mainline airframe, you drop an RJ."

It seems an agreement like that would prevent job loss, and perhaps increase mainline pilot jobs. We could offer something like that in exchange for higher rates and profit sharing.

Saabs
11-13-2014, 10:49 AM
There it is. Typical naive APA pilot to NEW AMERICAN PILOT discussion. Yes, I am a pilot for the NEW AMERICAN. Welcome to the NEW WORLD....newbie.

Condescending and flame baiting. Only 14 posts. Things that make ya go hmmmm......

TRZ06
11-13-2014, 11:29 AM
Parker and friends think they want arbitration now. I seriously do not think he ever figured we would take the offer presented. So wait a few weeks while the situation simmers and see if he doesn't sweeten up the deal while arbitration is taking place. And while I haven't always been the greatest supporter of our negotiating team in the past, they seem to be doing a pretty decent job considering the circumstances. My hope is that our "no thanks" reply to the AA's proposal will put the ball on management's side of the court. Let them counter or suffer the consequences of a discouraged work group. If its the latter, then thats their choice to live with the results, not ours.

Sliceback
11-13-2014, 11:33 AM
Route66 - don't tell us you're an AA pilot. You want credibility? Prove it.

eaglefly
11-13-2014, 11:57 AM
Route66 - don't tell us you're an AA pilot. You want credibility? Prove it.

It matters little who he is. What matters is that his interests are NOT that of the AA line pilots as a group. Understand that and it matters little what he attempts to convince anyone of here. He's brand new here and his timing and position are NOT random. Read his posts if you must, but my advice is to treat them like you were reading The Onion. :rolleyes:

70Espada
11-13-2014, 12:15 PM
It matters little who he is. What matters is that his interests are NOT that of the AA line pilots as a group. Understand that and it matters little what he attempts to convince anyone of here. He's brand new here and his timing and position are NOT random. Read his posts if you must, but my advice is to treat them like you were reading The Onion. :rolleyes:

A lot of what he is saying is based in reality. In a prior life I was airline management and i've watched two different unions deal with this management team. We could do a lot worse for who we have runing the company, but.......... they are for the most number crunchers (I used to be one). They may admire the Herbs of the world, but they stuggle to put a value on happy employees. Shafeholders and customers come first. Not happy about that view, but it is what it is.

eaglefly
11-13-2014, 12:20 PM
A lot of what he is saying is based in reality. In a prior life I was airline management and i've watched two different unions deal with this management team. We could do a lot worse for who we have runing the company, but.......... they are for the most number crunchers (I used to be one). They may admire the Herbs of the world, but they stuggle to put a value on happy employees. Shafeholders and customers come first. Not happy about that view, but it is what it is.

Ok, but let's look where we are and where we'll likely go......

70Espada
11-13-2014, 12:28 PM
Ok, but let's look where we are and where we'll likely go......

Think Gettysburg, they already have the high ground. Don't get me wrong, i'd like to tell them to stick that proposal where the sun don't shine, especially quality of life issues. It just wouldn't be productive and we will just get less.
At this point i'm not totally sure what the best course of action is.

Saabs
11-13-2014, 12:29 PM
Does any other airways guy get error messages when trying to get onto C and R?

PurpleTurtle
11-13-2014, 12:38 PM
Parker and friends think they want arbitration now. I seriously do not think he ever figured we would take the offer presented. So wait a few weeks while the situation simmers and see if he doesn't sweeten up the deal while arbitration is taking place. And while I haven't always been the greatest supporter of our negotiating team in the past, they seem to be doing a pretty decent job considering the circumstances. My hope is that our "no thanks" reply to the AA's proposal will put the ball on management's side of the court. Let them counter or suffer the consequences of a discouraged work group. If its the latter, then thats their choice to live with the results, not ours.

Parker had never paid employees a "happiness premium." Quite the opposite. He has always had a labor cost advantage and has never provided a premium class product. He is the epitome of "cheap". His roots are "America West"... You can take a person out of America West but you can never take the America West out of the person.

eaglefly
11-13-2014, 12:54 PM
...presently, what do we have from Parker ?

Well, aside that without doubt, we all should now conclude he was never sincere about resetting labor relations at AA, is not interested in "building trust" and for all intents and purposes was playing us like chumps by A. hiring one of the most well known anti-union individuals (some would call a "union buster") and B., strung us along with a several month delay claiming a "comprehensive proposal" to address APA's opener was coming and instead delivering what could have been composed in a hour, i.e., deliberately stalling. What have we gotten ?

Well, an offer of Delta rates with a feeble bump supposedly to offset the lack of profit-sharing that doesn't even come close to meeting that goal, at least in comparison to Delta pilots. BUT WAIT !!!

Those Delta rates would be essentially negated by a 40% tax on health care, thus making that for all intents and purposes a "cost neutral" pay proposal and WAAAAAY BEHIND Delta. For that (as there is essentially nothing else of value in response to APA's initial offer), we give them the scope concessions they wanted not just in a different form, but that could result in HUGE ASM transfers resulting in an even worse scenario of stagnation for those junior should those provisions be maximized.

I see no REAL pay increases, no profit-sharing and a gutting of scope. Is this an honest man TRULY looking to re-instill trust in a previously broken employee relations model ?

Definitely not.

How about arbitration ?

Well, at least it would be a known quantity. The MOU provides for substantial pay increases in 2016 although they will not meet Delta's. Scope is off the table and any alterations must be cost neutral, so in essence, massive health care taxes can't water down pay rates. Quite frankly, if the choice is between what's out there now and arbitration, arbitration is the better deal.

What does Parker get with arbitration ?

Well, yes.........he gets much cheaper labor then Delta and in consideration that he has said any arbitration result would be HIS failure, I suppose bragging rights on how HE failed. IF we do end up in arbitration, CLEARLY this was an orchestrated tactic and Parker had no intention of living up to his promises and claims and it will NOT be the pilots fault for taking what actually would be better deal in arbitration then a worse offer outside of it. BUT WAIT !!!

Employees (not just pilots) for better or worse will likely get something else for the cost of arbitration (AKA "Parker's failure") and that's the relief from going above and beyond to make the New AA any different from the old AA and that IS a necessary component of not just LONG-TERM success, but competitive superiority. Like it or not, that will ultimately likely end up the deal for Parker. Manipulating and fleecing employees like the past management gets him the old AA, just larger with pretty new paint on the sides. Treat them with respect and HONESTY and compensate competitively and get a NEW AA that can compete with Delta, so ultimately I think an arbitration bill will come due for Parker, it will just take time. If his attitude changes then, it will likely fall on disinterested, deaf ears.

The real message isn't really about the economics, it's the message that PARKER isn't honest and that can neither be bought nor ignored. It doesn't matter what Parker does now as he has already sent that message and he cannot take it back. The message is that this is HIS airline and not ours and in effect, we are just "renters" here and not owners. It's a fact renters rarely give a damn about where they happen to be renting at any given point, nor how long they've existed in that dwelling and despite the larger size and new paint on the walls, I don't see the tens of thousands of front-line pilots and flight attendants giving much of a damn about how attractive the house is, how fast it dilapidates in the future or what others think of it. At least now, there's no doubt about what and who Parker is, so at least we know what lies ahead and deal or not, I see Parker and Kirby no different then Arpey and Horton. Personally, I'd prefer arbitration at this point and emotionally disconnect from these characters just as I did from Arpey and Horton. I think it's always better to exist in a grounded reality even if less satisfying, then a pathetic fantasy and Parker is a known quantity now.

eaglefly
11-13-2014, 01:01 PM
Think Gettysburg, they already have the high ground. Don't get me wrong, i'd like to tell them to stick that proposal where the sun don't shine, especially quality of life issues. It just wouldn't be productive and we will just get less.
At this point i'm not totally sure what the best course of action is.

Less ?

I vehemently disagree. I think you should look at the smoke and mirrors of the initial proposal and compare what we have now to INCUDE the 2016 increases, now insurance costs to offset those pay increases and no degradation of scope. I'd argue that the present proposal is more "cost-neutral" for them (and thus worse for us) then an arbitrated JCBA result.

Parkers drunk on big profits right now and in his intoxication may be failing to see the potential hangover of this tack years down the road. Delta understands positive and collaborative labor relations and Southwest has for years and look where they've been and are going. AA has failed miserably in that component for decades and look where they've been. Parker came in and talked the talk, but now we see that's all it was..........more talk.

If you always do what you've always done, you'll always get what you've always gotten. Parker may very well end up getting what Arpey and Horton had in the long run even if he didn't plan on it. Temporary intoxications have a tendency to do that to people. ;)

Skubajet
11-13-2014, 01:02 PM
Just a thought here:

What if we said "ok, we will allow you to add an RJ for every additional mainline aircraft you add, and if you reduce a mainline airframe, you drop an RJ."

It seems an agreement like that would prevent job loss, and perhaps increase mainline pilot jobs. We could offer something like that in exchange for higher rates and profit sharing.

Since management wants to trade 50 seaters for 70 seaters, why not allow them to have no net gain of seats? Fine, you get X amount of 70 seaters but you must trade in more 50 seaters? I know the company doesn't like the 50 seaters so use the desire of management to get 70 seaters as a bargaining chip for us to get industry leading pay and work rules?

Again trade seat for seat , NOT airplane for airplane and we don't lose any seats to scope. If they don't wanna play, then they won't get any airframe changes they need with us going to arbitration.. Thoughts?

eaglefly
11-13-2014, 01:09 PM
Parker had never paid employees a "happiness premium." Quite the opposite. He has always had a labor cost advantage and has never provided a premium class product. He is the epitome of "cheap". His roots are "America West"... You can take a person out of America West but you can never take the America West out of the person.

Then that is what he will get...........in spades. I kinda still don't see the point of coming here to AA and claiming all those things, making all those statements just to reneg on them so fast. Sure, he bought himself some months, but now for the rest of his tenure (Kirby too), they'll be looked upon as manipulative scammers in the same light as their predecessors.

Perhaps that was the plan all along. I mean, if you had to show your crooked hand at some point, this would the time you'd have to do it. Again IMO, arbitration at least gives us the opportunity to emotionally disengage from Parker and his airline before getting too involved and emotionally invested in seeing it not only succeed, but dominate. Take what we get there, mind our own business and let him make it on his own..........:cool:

Thedude
11-13-2014, 01:22 PM
Since management wants to trade 50 seaters for 70 seaters, why not allow them to have no net gain of seats? Fine, you get X amount of 70 seaters but you must trade in more 50 seaters? I know the company doesn't like the 50 seaters so use the desire of management to get 70 seaters as a bargaining chip for us to get industry leading pay and work rules?


Take it one step farther. If you wanna trade its gonna cost you.
As in 2 50-seater-seat for 1 70-seater-seat (2for1) plus QoL improvements.
A straight trade (1for1) still gives them a win.


Ain't no free lunches.

eaglefly
11-13-2014, 01:23 PM
Since management wants to trade 50 seaters for 70 seaters, why not allow them to have no net gain of seats? Fine, you get X amount of 70 seaters but you must trade in more 50 seaters? I know the company doesn't like the 50 seaters so use the desire of management to get 70 seaters as a bargaining chip for us to get industry leading pay and work rules?

Again trade seat for seat , NOT airplane for airplane and we don't lose any seats to scope. If they don't wanna play, then they won't get any airframe changes they need with us going to arbitration.. Thoughts?

What about the three card monte game they're playing with the "Delta" pay offer ? What about complete ignorance of the other issues ? What about the fact AA pilots will lag Delta significantly in all respects including pay, scheduling and other areas ? Even Spirit, Jet Blue and others have pay scales better then ours and work rules too. What about all the things Parker represtned over the last weeks and months and now this ?

Can you.................no, WOULD YOU really ever trust this guy to play fair and live up to anything he said ?

I think you need to accept that Parker's vision for us is a Walmart low-cost labor existence with massive outsourcing.

eaglefly
11-13-2014, 01:29 PM
Take it one step farther. If you wanna trade its gonna cost you.
As in 2 50-seater-seat for 1 70-seater-seat (2for1) plus QoL improvements.
A straight trade (1for1) still gives them a win.


Ain't no free lunches.

Agreed. I think this is all B.S. and clearly a waste of time. I think the prevailing thought (barring any significant changes) is to go to arbitration with the MOU and if they mix a few things up, it still comes out cost-neutral. Still get 2016 pay bump, he can suck eggs on scope (and any future cooperation) and move on and let him run his airline with minimal effort from the pilots.........the old AA ran that way for years.

Thedude
11-13-2014, 01:37 PM
The message is that this is HIS airline and not ours and in effect, we are just "renters" here and not owners. It's a fact renters rarely give a damn about where they happen to be renting at any given point, nor how long they've existed in that dwelling and despite the larger size and new paint on the walls, I don't see the tens of thousands of front-line pilots and flight attendants giving much of a damn about how attractive the house is, how fast it dilapidates in the future or what others think of it.

Completely disagree with that.
As professionals we still strive to do a good/great job on a daily basis. We have sweat equity invested in the airline and want to see it prosper. None of us want to live/work in a broken down house/airline. That is exactly what management is counting on and the WILL use it against us. As long as the metal moves and profits keep coming in, they couldn't care less about employee moral and motovation.
I have seen it time and time again, like a broken record.
(On my 5th 121 carrier and 1 foreign carrier)

biigD
11-13-2014, 01:48 PM
Agreed. I think this is all B.S. and clearly a waste of time. I think the prevailing thought (barring any significant changes) is to go to arbitration with the MOU and if they mix a few things up, it still comes out cost-neutral. Still get 2016 pay bump, he can suck eggs on scope (and any future cooperation) and move on and let him run his airline with minimal effort from the pilots.........the old AA ran that way for years.

I really hope you're wrong and the APA can come to an agreement without giving up seats to the regionals, but I suspect you're right. I just don't see Parker agreeing to anything without some kind of concession on scope, and like I said before - I'd rather take arbitration and the MOU if that's the case.

eaglefly
11-13-2014, 01:50 PM
Completely disagree with that.
As professionals we still strive to do a good/great job on a daily basis. We have sweat equity invested in the airline and want to see it prosper. None of us want to live/work in a broken down house/airline. That is exactly what management is counting on and the WILL use it against us. As long as the metal moves and profits keep coming in, they couldn't care less about employee moral and motovation.
I have seen it time and time again, like a broken record.
(On my 5th 121 carrier and 1 foreign carrier)

I'm not referring to individual beliefs. Yes, many employees will give 110% even when treated poorly. I'm referring more in essence of overall morale. AA has traditionally been the poster-child for bad employee relations and like it or not, its product quality suffered in most areas as a result. To claim there is no relationship between the two is misguided. My point is the "new" AA is on track to be no different then the old.....and the old AA is just as much a known quantity as the "new" Parker now is.

Now, that may be just fine with Parker, no argument there. I guess if he's okay with that, then he is. At present, I expect after initial semi-giddiness and stunning profitability, AA will follow UAL and its old problems will resurface and the critics (and likely customers) will voice the same old complaints. AA's new paint will lose its pepsi can luster and wallow back to its previous mediocrity. I see that almost on a daily basis now in many ways if you really look. Just like life, most of this is all really an illusion anyway.

Route66
11-13-2014, 01:52 PM
Let's all throw our safety vests out as a show of solidarity

That's funny! I got a good laugh out of that. The problem now is that this pilot group will take you literally!!:p

Route66
11-13-2014, 01:54 PM
Route66 - don't tell us you're an AA pilot. You want credibility? Prove it.

How do you propose I do that?

eaglefly
11-13-2014, 01:55 PM
I really hope you're wrong and the APA can come to an agreement without giving up seats to the regionals, but I suspect you're right. I just don't see Parker agreeing to anything without some kind of concession on scope, and like I said before - I'd rather take arbitration and the MOU if that's the case.

This is A LOT more then just about "seats" or scope. It was about someone who said one thing and demonstrated it was all B.S.

Regardless of what happens, that's almost impossible to fix. Anderson on the other hand not only talks the talk, but walks it too. I had high hopes for Parker (with some skepticism), but they've been erased. Remember, just like Horton had his anti-union junk yard dog Brundage, Parker has Glass. Anderson doesn't need that nonsense.....too busy building something real (and more likely to reap long-term reward) instead of playing manipulating con games. :cool:

JKflight
11-13-2014, 02:00 PM
Just don't forget about Group I

We threw this group under the bus in the MOU because no body cared about 20 little airplanes. What happens when we bite on the higher pay rates if Parker takes scope off the table and we end up with 250 110 seat 195's and a bunch of canceled 321/737 orders....

He would have a third of the airline flying around working for what are glorified regional pay rates!

Route66
11-13-2014, 02:02 PM
It matters little who he is. What matters is that his interests are NOT that of the AA line pilots as a group. Understand that and it matters little what he attempts to convince anyone of here. He's brand new here and his timing and position are NOT random. Read his posts if you must, but my advice is to treat them like you were reading The Onion. :rolleyes:
You're right....it matters little. But what YOU "believe" is what YOU think the "interests" of the AA line pilots as a group. I am not here to convince, really. I don't expect those who repeat the same mistakes to listen to my observations. I may be "brand new" on this forum but I can ASSURE you I am NOT brand new to the airline NOR am I a junior New American Pilot.

I like the onion and you would be surprised that the APA and ALPA prints a lot that certainly LOOKS and SOUNDS like the onion.

What I AM here to establish is, when ALL this stuff eventually shakes out I get the bragging rights to say...."See, I told you so!" That's all.

Continue on you're jihadi crusade.

PRS Guitars
11-13-2014, 02:03 PM
Just don't forget about Group I

We threw this group under the bus in the MOU because no body cared about 20 little airplanes. What happens when we bite on the higher pay rates if Parker takes scope off the table and we end up with 250 110 seat 195's and a bunch of canceled 321/737 orders....

He would have a third of the airline flying around working for what are glorified regional pay rates!
Yeah, and it's pretty funny (sad) that year two pay on the 190 under this proposal is the same as year 1. So essentially two years of 1st year pay.

wareagle
11-13-2014, 02:11 PM
You're right....it matters little. But what YOU "believe" is what YOU think the "interests" of the AA line pilots as a group. I am not here to convince, really. I don't expect those who repeat the same mistakes to listen to my observations. I may be "brand new" on this forum but I can ASSURE you I am NOT brand new to the airline NOR am I a junior New American Pilot.

I like the onion and you would be surprised that the APA and ALPA prints a lot that certainly LOOKS and SOUNDS like the onion.

What I AM here to establish is, when ALL this stuff eventually shakes out I get the bragging rights to say...."See, I told you so!" That's all.

Continue on you're jihadi crusade.

Why do you read both the APA and ALPA words? Are you negotiating with both?

eaglefly
11-13-2014, 02:17 PM
You're right....it matters little. But what YOU "believe" is what YOU think the "interests" of the AA line pilots as a group. I am not here to convince, really. I don't expect those who repeat the same mistakes to listen to my observations. I may be "brand new" on this forum but I can ASSURE you I am NOT brand new to the airline NOR am I a junior New American Pilot.

I like the onion and you would be surprised that the APA and ALPA prints a lot that certainly LOOKS and SOUNDS like the onion.

What I AM here to establish is, when ALL this stuff eventually shakes out I get the bragging rights to say...."See, I told you so!" That's all.

Continue on you're jihadi crusade.

You're here for "bragging rights" to belittle stupid pilots ?

Well, then I pegged you perfectly. ;)

Just don't confuse that with credibility, because you're bankrupt of that here....and BTW, no one's interested in your laurels, so polish them elsewhere.

Route66
11-13-2014, 02:23 PM
A lot of what he is saying is based in reality. In a prior life I was airline management and i've watched two different unions deal with this management team. We could do a lot worse for who we have runing the company, but.......... they are for the most number crunchers (I used to be one). They may admire the Herbs of the world, but they stuggle to put a value on happy employees. Shafeholders and customers come first. Not happy about that view, but it is what it is.

You seem to understand what most do not here. Your experience in management has evidently served you well.

Route66
11-13-2014, 02:25 PM
You're here for "bragging rights" to belittle stupid pilots ?

Well, then I pegged you perfectly. ;)

Just don't confuse that with credibility, because you're bankrupt of that here....and BTW, no one's interested in your laurels, so polish them elsewhere.

No thanks. I love to have you prove my point mainline pilot "wannabe". I think you've pegged your "inferior" self.

eaglefly
11-13-2014, 02:34 PM
No thanks. I love to have you prove my point mainline pilot "wannabe". I think you've pegged your "inferior" self.

THERE IT IS !!!

LMAO !..........do you know how many times angry and frustrated members have played that tired, old, worn card on me here ?

I always find it amusing as it indicates exasperation, frustration, an empty clip and it means they've nowhere left to go in rebuttal. It's the classic demonstration of failure. :o

My condolences to your inevitable arrival at that place. It was only a matter of time. Personally, I think "failure" will pay another visit to you soon enough. ;)

Spoiler
11-13-2014, 02:39 PM
as angry as pilots may be they have no business going against Glass without a leader on par with him - there that's 3X I have said it.

Spoiler
11-13-2014, 02:41 PM
How do you propose I do that?

send a selfie in uniform

Spoiler
11-13-2014, 02:43 PM
Just don't forget about Group I

We threw this group under the bus in the MOU because no body cared about 20 little airplanes. What happens when we bite on the higher pay rates if Parker takes scope off the table and we end up with 250 110 seat 195's and a bunch of canceled 321/737 orders....

He would have a third of the airline flying around working for what are glorified regional pay rates!


Let them use that for large RJ flying
I doubt the economics of the 175 are much different

Saabs
11-13-2014, 03:04 PM
You're right....it matters little. But what YOU "believe" is what YOU think the "interests" of the AA line pilots as a group. I am not here to convince, really. I don't expect those who repeat the same mistakes to listen to my observations. I may be "brand new" on this forum but I can ASSURE you I am NOT brand new to the airline NOR am I a junior New American Pilot.

I like the onion and you would be surprised that the APA and ALPA prints a lot that certainly LOOKS and SOUNDS like the onion.

What I AM here to establish is, when ALL this stuff eventually shakes out I get the bragging rights to say...."See, I told you so!" That's all.

Continue on you're jihadi crusade.

:rolleyes:

Saabs
11-13-2014, 03:05 PM
You seem to understand what most do not here. Your experience in management has evidently served you well.

:rolleyes:

Saabs
11-13-2014, 03:05 PM
No thanks. I love to have you prove my point mainline pilot "wannabe". I think you've pegged your "inferior" self.

:rolleyes:

Maingear
11-13-2014, 03:06 PM
As much as I would love to see this contract voted down, I don't think you will come out any better in arbitration. I can't imagine arbitrators feeling pity for anyone making over 100k/yr. I know it's stupid, you know it's stupid, but I don't think arbitration will help the contract overall. You might make a couple improvements with work rules. I can't see pay or an hour cap being raised.

We really need to get rid of RLA to get any real gains for pilots.

Good luck all.

gsu50
11-13-2014, 03:21 PM
From the beginning of the merger.........

In a special memo to employees, Parker said his target total compensation would be about 20% below that of the United and Delta CEOs and more than 90% of it would be based on performance.

“I won’t be paid as much as my peers at Delta and United until you are,”

Is APA prepared to hold him accountable for this statement?

Also, Parker gets substantially more money in stock options based on American's performance. He's going to get paid to the tune of $18M I think based on the performance of the company that we've given him!

So really his base salary, yes is 20% lower than his peers, but how about after bonuses? (for someone who doesn't believe in PS to drive better performance?)

Last I checked I was working at a 41% discount to my peers.....

Route66
11-13-2014, 03:49 PM
As much as I would love to see this contract voted down, I don't think you will come out any better in arbitration. I can't imagine arbitrators feeling pity for anyone making over 100k/yr. I know it's stupid, you know it's stupid, but I don't think arbitration will not help the contract overall. You might make a couple improvements with work rules. I can't see pay or an hour cap being raised.

We really need to get rid of RLA to get any real gains for pilots.

Good luck all.

You have a good point. However, get rid of or revise it? I think that would be a better question.

Thedude
11-13-2014, 06:21 PM
as angry as pilots may be they have no business going against Glass without a leader on par with him - there that's 3X I have said it.

Lets say it one more time.

Negotiations ain't the time to play nice and glad hand it.
Its time to bring out the war dogs.

justjack
11-13-2014, 07:44 PM
You're right....it matters little. But what YOU "believe" is what YOU think the "interests" of the AA line pilots as a group. I am not here to convince, really. I don't expect those who repeat the same mistakes to listen to my observations. I may be "brand new" on this forum but I can ASSURE you I am NOT brand new to the airline NOR am I a junior New American Pilot.

I like the onion and you would be surprised that the APA and ALPA prints a lot that certainly LOOKS and SOUNDS like the onion.

What I AM here to establish is, when ALL this stuff eventually shakes out I get the bragging rights to say...."See, I told you so!" That's all.

Continue on you're jihadi crusade.

There is a serious problem here when a "pilot" describes the reaction to this "offer" from the company as a "jihadi crusade."
This is morally JUSTIFIABLE indignation. Anyone in the aviation industry- apparently including management from the other major airlines, understands this. It is very telling that you do not get it.

Maingear
11-13-2014, 07:45 PM
You have a good point. However, get rid of or revise it? I think that would be a better question.

I don't have an answer to that question, but something needs to be done in order to see a return of good pilot pay and benefits that were last seen 14 years ago. I would like to see ALPA lobby very aggressively to get the RLA changed. Of course Congress will never approve it since it will hurt them visiting their vacation homes and families on the weekends.

justjack
11-13-2014, 07:55 PM
Lets say it one more time.

Negotiations ain't the time to play nice and glad hand it.
Its time to bring out the war dogs.

It's no insult. I don't cut my own hair or do my own colonoscopy. Sometimes you've just got to go to experts.

Surprise
11-13-2014, 08:03 PM
I don't have an answer to that question, but something needs to be done in order to see a return of good pilot pay and benefits that were last seen 14 years ago. I would like to see ALPA lobby very aggressively to get the RLA changed. Of course Congress will never approve it since it will hurt them visiting their vacation homes and families on the weekends.

Be creative. We could have rolling strikes. Shut down a different hub every day. Or don't fly on Tuesdays and Fridays. Or don't fly flights with odd numbers. Or don't fly after 2pm. Or whatever. We don't have to completely shut down to make it hurt. We just need the legal ability to do so get some God-honest leverage.

DrivinTheDash
11-13-2014, 08:11 PM
As much as I would love to see this contract voted down, I don't think you will come out any better in arbitration. I can't imagine arbitrators feeling pity for anyone making over 100k/yr. I know it's stupid, you know it's stupid, but I don't think arbitration will help the contract overall. You might make a couple improvements with work rules. I can't see pay or an hour cap being raised. . .

They don't need to pity us, they don't need to change any rules or pay. The contract coming out of arbitration would be better than the company's proposal for one reason: scope. No matter what the company asks for, no matter what evidence they present, the arbitrators are specifically forbidden by the MTA from changing the scope of the contract. I, and I believe the vast majority of pilots at the new AA, will gladly wait until 2016 for my raise, and until the next section 6 for all of the other improvements we want to see, if that's the only way to preserve scope.

Spoiler
11-14-2014, 02:23 AM
the end game is to bust APA and ALPA which they now have the money to do. You can put it off but the balance sheet gets stronger every day.

Route66
11-14-2014, 02:45 AM
There is a serious problem here when a "pilot" describes the reaction to this "offer" from the company as a "jihadi crusade."
This is morally JUSTIFIABLE indignation. Anyone in the aviation industry- apparently including management from the other major airlines, understands this. It is very telling that you do not get it.

Oh I get it. Morally JUSTIFIABLE indignation? Oh, I am a pilot. Oh, and I just saw the latest offer from the company. Oh, and I DID crunch the numbers. I don't care what the management from the other airlines think. They don't run the company I work for.

I had a Southwest pilot on the jumpsuit the other day. They are not happy with their management, FYI. (United isn't having a lovefest with theirs, either).

If you are a pilot here, YOU DON'T GET IT. Because the "company" doesn't come down from their office and lick the ground you walk on you have a "morally JUSTIFIED indignation" legal case. The package the company offered is a GREAT package. It's sad to see the same ole union mentality used at APA that is used at ALPA. In all my years as a pilot I have NEVER seen pilots use reason and logic in their "business" analysis of their competitive situation. MAINLY because they compete with each other.

Go ahead and use that justification in your "jihadi crusade". You'll be alone.

Route66
11-14-2014, 02:50 AM
Be creative. We could have rolling strikes. Shut down a different hub every day. Or don't fly on Tuesdays and Fridays. Or don't fly flights with odd numbers. Or don't fly after 2pm. Or whatever. We don't have to completely shut down to make it hurt. We just need the legal ability to do so get some God-honest leverage.

You are four years plus away from any LEGAL strike here at the New American, if and when all the RLA procedures are played out. A lot can change in that time frame. How about focusing on the reality of the here and now, not some pie-in-the-sky wishful thinking where all pilots everywhere will hold hands, teach the world to sing in perfect harmony and drink Coke (maybe a few would make more sense if they just snorted it.)

TRZ06
11-14-2014, 03:32 AM
Oh I get it. Morally JUSTIFIABLE indignation? Oh, I am a pilot. Oh, and I just saw the latest offer from the company. Oh, and I DID crunch the numbers. I don't care what the management from the other airlines think. They don't run the company I work for.

I had a Southwest pilot on the jumpsuit the other day. They are not happy with their management, FYI. (United isn't having a lovefest with theirs, either).

If you are a pilot here, YOU DON'T GET IT. Because the "company" doesn't come down from their office and lick the ground you walk on you have a "morally JUSTIFIED indignation" legal case. The package the company offered is a GREAT package. It's sad to see the same ole union mentality used at APA that is used at ALPA. In all my years as a pilot I have NEVER seen pilots use reason and logic in their "business" analysis of their competitive situation. MAINLY because they compete with each other.

Go ahead and use that justification in your "jihadi crusade". You'll be alone.


So there you have it, a GREAT package! I am by no means an extremist. I have a hard time separating my professional pride from my company pride, but it can and has to be done. I lost the latter a long time ago so it only can be improved at this point. Look, I don't fault anyone for judging whether this offer is good enough to accept, but to classify it as a GREAT package is a stretch to say the least.
Why AA would not go toe to toe with Delta when we are hauling in the cash is beyond me. As I have said before, Parker is no different from the management we have had before. Weak leadership, no foresight, a real bean counter. Sad, because we will never know what could have been if we all worked together. For many decades now, American Airlines has been synonymous with mediocrity. If we do survive, and we probably will, expect it to be the bottom of the majors service wise. You can put lipstick on a pig, but...

Route66
11-14-2014, 04:01 AM
So there you have it, a GREAT package! I am by no means an extremist. I have a hard time separating my professional pride from my company pride, but it can and has to be done. I lost the latter a long time ago so it only can be improved at this point. Look, I don't fault anyone for judging whether this offer is good enough to accept, but to classify it as a GREAT package is a stretch to say the least.
Why AA would not go toe to toe with Delta when we are hauling in the cash is beyond me. As I have said before, Parker is no different from the management we have had before. Weak leadership, no foresight, a real bean counter. Sad, because we will never know what could have been if we all worked together. For many decades now, American Airlines has been synonymous with mediocrity. If we do survive, and we probably will, expect it to be the bottom of the majors service wise. You can put lipstick on a pig, but...
OK. I'll concede and accept your premise that it isn't a Great package.

Here is WHY in a nutshell: pilots are doing the job ALREADY for less now and in Arbitration will STILL be doing the job for less until 2019. I've looked at the APA chart pay numbers jump DRAMATICALLY and waiting for the future what you will get NOW makes a lot more sense. As far as the scope clause is concerned, a jump from 65 to 70 (for that matter a jump from 76 to 81) is irrelevant considering the orders for new aircraft we have now as well as what is already codified into the CBA E-190/195 and CS aircraft under groups 1 and 2. In short, the scope issue was a lost cause when the pilots first allowed the companies to "code-share" and fly the company colors under contract years ago. That ship has sailed and there is no putting it back in drydock.

You'll get your chance to renegotiate in 2020.

The APA-USAPA pilots are in a place THEY put themselves into because of years of US Airways and American Bankruptcies and mergers with different groups who think they contributed more to THEIR companies bottom line than the others did. That is a complete crock. They had NO bargaining power other than in the courts and they had NO plan ahead of time to counter it. The same has proven true today. The APA was UNPREPARED for the offer the company has placed on the table and that is a simple FACT. They have never been and never will be prepared for future contingencies or scenarios where the company is on the lower rung of the ladder.

That idea is the reality pilots will have to deal with. BTW, I have NEVER separated my professional pride with my company pride. Do your job, do it well, DO IT PROFESSIONALLY, look the part and you'll EARN the respect you deserve. You're all welcome to "dig on me here" but when I go to work I am respected for who I am and what I do and I take pride in that everyday.

Saabs
11-14-2014, 05:02 AM
OK. I'll concede and accept your premise that it isn't a Great package.

Here is WHY in a nutshell: pilots are doing the job ALREADY for less now and in Arbitration will STILL be doing the job for less until 2019. I've looked at the APA chart pay numbers jump DRAMATICALLY and waiting for the future what you will get NOW makes a lot more sense. As far as the scope clause is concerned, a jump from 65 to 70 (for that matter a jump from 76 to 81) is irrelevant considering the orders for new aircraft we have now as well as what is already codified into the CBA E-190/195 and CS aircraft under groups 1 and 2. In short, the scope issue was a lost cause when the pilots first allowed the companies to "code-share" and fly the company colors under contract years ago. That ship has sailed and there is no putting it back in drydock.

You'll get your chance to renegotiate in 2020.

The APA-USAPA pilots are in a place THEY put themselves into because of years of US Airways and American Bankruptcies and mergers with different groups who think they contributed more to THEIR companies bottom line than the others did. That is a complete crock. They had NO bargaining power other than in the courts and they had NO plan ahead of time to counter it. The same has proven true today. The APA was UNPREPARED for the offer the company has placed on the table and that is a simple FACT. They have never been and never will be prepared for future contingencies or scenarios where the company is on the lower rung of the ladder.

That idea is the reality pilots will have to deal with. BTW, I have NEVER separated my professional pride with my company pride. Do your job, do it well, DO IT PROFESSIONALLY, look the part and you'll EARN the respect you deserve. You're all welcome to "dig on me here" but when I go to work I am respected for who I am and what I do and I take pride in that everyday.

:rolleyes:

Saabless
11-14-2014, 05:04 AM
Will this go to a pilot vote? Or most likely APA countering a few things and accepting or rejecting it on their own?

LIOG41
11-14-2014, 05:09 AM
Will this go to a pilot vote? Or most likely APA countering a few things and accepting or rejecting it on their own?

I believe if they accept the counter, then the BoD will pass it. If not, and they go back and forth a couple more times over the next few days, then I think it will go to vote.

FredFlyer
11-14-2014, 05:31 AM
http://www.thestreet.mobi/story/12953703/1/could-it-be-that-delta-enjoys-the-contract-squabbles-at-american.html?puc=yahoo&cm_ven=YAHOO

eaglefly
11-14-2014, 05:42 AM
Oh I get it. Morally JUSTIFIABLE indignation? Oh, I am a pilot. Oh, and I just saw the latest offer from the company. Oh, and I DID crunch the numbers. I don't care what the management from the other airlines think. They don't run the company I work for.

I had a Southwest pilot on the jumpsuit the other day. They are not happy with their management, FYI. (United isn't having a lovefest with theirs, either).

If you are a pilot here, YOU DON'T GET IT. Because the "company" doesn't come down from their office and lick the ground you walk on you have a "morally JUSTIFIED indignation" legal case. The package the company offered is a GREAT package. It's sad to see the same ole union mentality used at APA that is used at ALPA. In all my years as a pilot I have NEVER seen pilots use reason and logic in their "business" analysis of their competitive situation. MAINLY because they compete with each other.

Go ahead and use that justification in your "jihadi crusade". You'll be alone.

"Great Package" ?

God, what a fruitcake. :cool:

Only a senior captain who couldn't care less about scope or anything but a few extra dollars quicker would think that. He'd be happy to throw anyone else under the bus to feather his few final years. Pilots like that aren't really part of the group and are essentially parasites considering the other pilots his host.

At least we know what road the rock you scurried out from under is.

eaglefly
11-14-2014, 05:51 AM
:rolleyes:

Agreed. This trolling shill is here only to **** with pllots minds in the hope he'll make a difference. He won't and whether he realizes it or not has ALREADY failed. Fact is, he's essentially just masturbating himself here, because the real influence to the BOD is occurring in direct communication to them from pilots and they're getting the message which is an OVERWHELMINGLY negative response to this proposal.

I encourage ALL AA pilots to communicate their position directly to APA and their chiefs.

R57 relay
11-14-2014, 06:11 AM
Only a senior captain who couldn't care less about scope or anything but a few extra dollars quicker would think that. He'd be happy to throw anyone else under the bus to feather his few final years. Pilots like that aren't really part of the group and are essentially parasites considering the other pilots his host.

At least we know what road the rock you scurried out from under is.

You're wrong again EF. I KNOW who he is, and he is not a senior captain.

Sometimes his delivery style gets in the way of his message, as I've TOLD HIM repeatedly.:rolleyes:

eaglefly
11-14-2014, 06:42 AM
To all : Again, as I've stated it doesn't matter who Roadkill66 is (I've deliberately referred to him both as a pilot and NOT a pilot to highlight his chamelonism) and his message sucks even without a mack truck. APA today will submit a counter to Parker's feeble proposal and if rejected, arbitration is the likely path as it should be. Personally, I had no illusions about Parker and it's true the majority of AA pilots agreed to the MTA/JCBA provisions and process. This is not section 6, but Parkers proposal and duration is essentially making it a section 6 offer (that's just but one aspect of its con), but a lowball one. So in light of that, I still think we're better off taking what we accepted via arbitration vs. an AWFUL section 6 wannabe and keeping scope the same.

WE will get substantial pay improvements in 2016, no mixing of domestic and international (unless cost improvements for the company are recouped elsewhere by the pilots), no obscene health care taxes (also without corresponding improvements elsewhere), no scope changes and PARKER will get cheaper labor and the former angry, disillusioned employees the old AA had to try and compete with Delta in both good times and bad, so eventually after his financial honeymoon is over we all will likely lose. When it does come time for section 6, we'll have the good old antagonism on steroids relationship AA has always been known for (and whose inferiority has been a resulting byproduct of) to work with. Parker showed his cards and there's now no doubt the new boss is the same as the old. That cannot be changed no matter what at this point as that bridge was bombed.

My guess is they'll want an extension to "consider" the counter and that should be one week maximum. I think they'll then offer some minor sweeteners and then it will be up to APA to decide to accept or reject with no more dancing. Parker gets to choose which AA he wants - a new one or the old one. I know Anderson is hoping for the old one. They'll kill us in the future and they should. Parker may indeed get something (and may not even care) with a crap deal, but he also gives something up and what he gives up may be a bigger component then he thought. Again, I hear from others that "Parker doesn't care". Perhaps, but if that's true, he's stupider then I thought. In the future what he gives up is likely the key ingredient to success and the affected employees will remember how he reneged at this critical juncture and failed to live up to his claims and promises.

R57 relay
11-14-2014, 07:07 AM
I agree EF. Good post.

biigD
11-14-2014, 07:17 AM
You're wrong again EF. I KNOW who he is, and he is not a senior captain.


With the LUS pilot group, it's not uncommon to be senior in age, but not senior in their seat. Anyone that says that scope is 'irrelevant' clearly doesn't plan to be part of this industry much longer. He also mentions professional pride, and I'd argue that he clearly has none, and he has no problem stepping all over the profession for short term monetary gain.

Saabs
11-14-2014, 07:20 AM
Anyone care to explain why having a domestic and international base on the same type aircraft is good? I would think that not having them separate would give better schedule flexibility, but it's all foreign to me and I'm sure there are reasons that I am oblivious to.

KiloAlpha
11-14-2014, 07:41 AM
APA Committee recommendations do not reference scope in their counter proposal.

It references higher pay rates, 321 group III rates, minimum day, and LOS.

If the company accepts Delta + "x" %, then APA will accept the company's scope proposal?

DarinFred
11-14-2014, 07:48 AM
I think they are keeping the negotiating and scope portions separate. I hope the scope committee is going to give the BOD a separate recommendation than those given by the negotiating committee. We'll know in a few hours.

LIOG41
11-14-2014, 07:48 AM
APA Committee recommendations do not reference scope in their counter proposal.

It references higher pay rates, 321 group III rates, minimum day, and LOS.

If the company accepts Delta + "x" %, then APA will accept the company's scope proposal?

Jumping to conclusions. Nobody knows what the counter entails...until later today.

Monkeyfly
11-14-2014, 07:56 AM
Did the APA give you guys any scope comparison numbers?

If not, here are some UAL basics.

-80% of Express flying must be less than 900 sm.
-Max Number of allowed 50 seat RJs 90% of mainline narrowbodies.
-Max Express hours between hubs 5% of mainline hours between hubs.
-Max number of 70/76 seat RJs is 255 of which 153 can be 76 seat plane.
-IF New Small Narrowbody Fleet is added:
76-seat fleet can be increased at a 1:1.25 ratio of mainline planes added up to a maximum of 223 76 seat RJs and a total of 325 70/76 seat planes.


For reference our narrow body fleet is 529 planes out of 691 total. Currently have 60 76 seat and 153 70 seat Express planes.

DCA A321 FO
11-14-2014, 08:21 AM
The package the company offered is a GREAT package.

You must be HIGH!

DCA A321 FO
11-14-2014, 08:24 AM
Anyone care to explain why having a domestic and international base on the same type aircraft is good? I would think that not having them separate would give better schedule flexibility, but it's all foreign to me and I'm sure there are reasons that I am oblivious to.

Save on training cost.

kingairip
11-14-2014, 08:33 AM
You're wrong again EF. I KNOW who he is, and he is not a senior captain.

Sometimes his delivery style gets in the way of his message, as I've TOLD HIM repeatedly.

It really doesn't matter, but is this clown an actual pilot on the LUS side?

shiznit
11-14-2014, 08:38 AM
Good idea Monkeyfly.... Knowing your peers is the only way to make your leadership do one better.

DAL:
-85% of all DCI legs must be under 900SM
-90% of all DCI must originate or end in a hub (legs, not Block Hrs.)
Max. 50 seat RJ's is 125 (343 at ratification)
Max. 51-70 seat RJ's is 102
Max 71-76 seat RJ's is 153-223 (scaled up as 319/717's added AND 50 seat RJ's parked)
Total RJ's 450 end state

In 2012 DAL/DCI domestic block hour split was 54/46.
In 2015 DAL/DCI block hour split will be 64/36
Contractual maximum DCI will be 39%.
Mainline minimum will be 61%.

Current domestic fleet schedule for end of 2015 is 687 mainline and 420 RJ's.

50's - 125
70's - 102
76's - 193

PurpleTurtle
11-14-2014, 08:40 AM
To all : Again, as I've stated it doesn't matter who Roadkill66 is (I've deliberately referred to him both as a pilot and NOT a pilot to highlight his chamelonism) and his message sucks even without a mack truck. APA today will submit a counter to Parker's feeble proposal and if rejected, arbitration is the likely path as it should be. Personally, I had no illusions about Parker and it's true the majority of AA pilots agreed to the MTA/JCBA provisions and process. This is not section 6, but Parkers proposal and duration is essentially making it a section 6 offer (that's just but one aspect of its con), but a lowball one. So in light of that, I still think we're better off taking what we accepted via arbitration vs. an AWFUL section 6 wannabe and keeping scope the same.

WE will get substantial pay improvements in 2016, no mixing of domestic and international (unless cost improvements for the company are recouped elsewhere by the pilots), no obscene health care taxes (also without corresponding improvements elsewhere), no scope changes and PARKER will get cheaper labor and the former angry, disillusioned employees the old AA had to try and compete with Delta in both good times and bad, so eventually after his financial honeymoon is over we all will likely lose. When it does come time for section 6, we'll have the good old antagonism on steroids relationship AA has always been known for (and whose inferiority has been a resulting byproduct of) to work with. Parker showed his cards and there's now no doubt the new boss is the same as the old. That cannot be changed no matter what at this point as that bridge was bombed.

My guess is they'll want an extension to "consider" the counter and that should be one week maximum. I think they'll then offer some minor sweeteners and then it will be up to APA to decide to accept or reject with no more dancing. Parker gets to choose which AA he wants - a new one or the old one. I know Anderson is hoping for the old one. They'll kill us in the future and they should. Parker may indeed get something (and may not even care) with a crap deal, but he also gives something up and what he gives up may be a bigger component then he thought. Again, I hear from others that "Parker doesn't care". Perhaps, but if that's true, he's stupider then I thought. In the future what he gives up is likely the key ingredient to success and the affected employees will remember how he reneged at this critical juncture and failed to live up to his claims and promises.

DUI will continue to present the "happy go lucky frat boy on a buzz" persona to keep everyone off their guard while he dispatches Jerry Glass and pollyanna propagandists.. the former to mop up and the latter to persuade the media "move along, nothing to see here."

I am looking to move up in life via a career change. Walmart has a greeter position open. No fleebag hotels. Close in employee parking. No reserve buckets. Christmas off! And no drug tests, so I'll be like a CEO!

drinksonme
11-14-2014, 09:05 AM
Not sure if anyone mentioned this, but this is probably exactly what the company wants. They want us to reject their offer, and IMHO, is why:

-Arbitration will result in a better deal for them to include:

1. Lower Pay Rates (rate in the proposal are higher than arbitrated rates. But this was not the real reason for higher rates)

2. No profit sharing (with the proposal and and subsequent negotiations related to the proposal, PS is on the table. With the arbitrator it's not...easy way to end that option now and on subsequent contracts)

3. Worst work rules for us, meaning best work rules for them in the industry per the MOU

4. Pay Rates, the REAL REASON, this time their "Act of Valor". They look like the good guys to the shareholders, Wall St, the government, media, and the public. We look like the greedy, self centered, me first "UNION" (a bad word now days) that turned down the highest "pay" in the indusrty, now causing all the problem at the New AA. Though it's not a big deal in our minds, it emboldens management and make them harder to work with and no one cares about our plight.

5. They lose nothing. They already knew what they were going to get with the MOU. They are taking a stab at more cause they can. We lose the momentum of the times, profit sharing, QOL.

6. They get billions in profits and disgruntled pilot group. Guess what, the billions will still be there and our disgruntled group will still get the same...nothing. Well except a few will push it too far and get fired.

I am totally against the proposal. I have no fantasy that our counter will be accepted (cause they never wanted a deal in the first place...they already had one. They were just playing alone as the MOU said it had to be) in any form. They knew our Achilles Heel was scope and they went straight for it. I think it's time we stop playing forum negotiatior and get ready for a few more tough years. Then when time to negotiate for real, I am sure the profits will not be there magically and we argue again for years on end.

Side not: NEGOTIATONG ON A PUBLIC FORUM IS STUPID.

justjack
11-14-2014, 09:17 AM
Oh I get it. Morally JUSTIFIABLE indignation? Oh, I am a pilot. Oh, and I just saw the latest offer from the company. Oh, and I DID crunch the numbers. I don't care what the management from the other airlines think. They don't run the company I work for.

I had a Southwest pilot on the jumpsuit the other day. They are not happy with their management, FYI. (United isn't having a lovefest with theirs, either).

If you are a pilot here, YOU DON'T GET IT. Because the "company" doesn't come down from their office and lick the ground you walk on you have a "morally JUSTIFIED indignation" legal case. The package the company offered is a GREAT package. It's sad to see the same ole union mentality used at APA that is used at ALPA. In all my years as a pilot I have NEVER seen pilots use reason and logic in their "business" analysis of their competitive situation. MAINLY because they compete with each other.

Go ahead and use that justification in your "jihadi crusade". You'll be alone.

First start with the facts. You are the one that used the words "jihadi crusade." From then on I only quoted you. I am not suggesting anything illegal. Parker should know if he is trying to get someone to do something that he can fire them for and then hire them back after it is grieved, it isn't going to work. He is running the world's largest airline and this is a different group from the USAirways bunch. Plus the world is watching. There is no need for talk of anything illegal. Last time we were forced to work under the RLA. Although we still have to work under the RLA, this time the MOU (as bad as it was) spells out the procedure. Last time the problem was that under the RLA, if the LOA 93 contract did not expire; it simply become amenable. This is not the case with the MOU.
Here is what I get:
I have lived on half of my original pay for over a decade. This was my choice because I stayed - I could have quit. Still the dogma from the company at the time was, "We're all in this together."
I lost my retirement with no mathematical way to get it back. The company did not give me the twenty years that I worked for it in exchange for the millions that they took from me. Not my choice. But,"We're all in this together."
Now, when things are good and every other airline is participating in profit sharing with employees, suddenly management is not interested in the "We're all in it together" dogma.
One must contemplate the reasoning behind this. When times are bad- we get less. When times are good - we should get more. Simple- for honest folks. Delta plus 3% is a not at all, thinly veiled attempt to get me to take less.
This is what disappointment looks like. And yes, this IS what morality looks like. I am not surprised with managements behavior but some here had thought that this was a new day. During the bad times one could believe that management was so adversarial because they had to be to save the airline. Today management makes a choice to follow Delta's lead or go the other way. There's a reason why Delta will always be the best. While I don't expect a "love fest" I do expect honesty and respect and I will say it, morality. It is time that we call this type of greed exactly what it is- immoral. So this is a disappointment on so many levels. From now own do not put words in my mouth. These things are in writing.

Flytolive
11-14-2014, 11:52 AM
A lot of what he is saying is based in reality. In a prior life I was airline management and i've watched two different unions deal with this management team. We could do a lot worse for who we have runing the company, but.......... they are for the most number crunchers (I used to be one). They may admire the Herbs of the world, but they stuggle to put a value on happy employees. Shafeholders and customers come first. Not happy about that view, but it is what it is.There is some truth to that, but how management sees it is not how an arbitrator will. If the APA makes a proposal in line with the DAL and UAL pilot contracts with the same scope then the APA will win the arbitration (remember not a negotiation).

If the terms of the arbitration are no cost increase then adjust accordingly + inflation, but give nothing on scope. Then get the $ in 2016 after DAL pilots takes a swing at it.

Route66
11-14-2014, 11:58 AM
That's essentially what's occurring. Managements initial proposal is referred to as an "initial" proposal. Who did that ? Look, we know you couldn't care less about scope or any of the other issues potentially negatively impacting large segments of pilots and advocate pilots taking what they might get now, but the proposal is a scam as is.

There's a difference between pay rates and pay raises.

The rates in that proposal have all kinds of equalizers like insurance taxes and longer duration to spread out the cost (as well as neuter any chance of considering additional contract pay adjustments at DAL and UAL that the MOU does) which make it almost as cost neutral for management as the MOU provisions and they don't get scope.

Going to have to be some SIGNIFICANT "tweaking" there. Oops !

I used the S word. :eek: Jerry doesn't like that word. :rolleyes:

This is a seniority thread BTW.
At one time I DID care about scope. I even stood on the same ground you did...at ONE TIME. But that was a time when US Airways and American didn't have wholy owned airlines or code sharing agreements. That was negotiated away years ago. Now it's really just nothing more than an echo of buyers remorse. Look, you say the majority of pilots have NO PRICE for scope. Well see about that but I simply say the numbers will prove you wrong...in the long run. Just like it did with scope (whatever is left of it).

If I HAD my druthers, if EVERY SINGLE PILOT AT EVERY SINGLE CARRIER would COMMIT to voting in contracts that they would hire ALL commuter pilots by their ORIGINAL DATE OF HIRE if they were offered the position to mainline (with the option of deferring with their own knowledge that they would get bypassed on their seniority if they didn't take the offer) I would be the FIRST to STAND IN LINE AND SUPPORT IT.

In the REAL WORLD the reasons Comair and Envoy are getting what they got or ARE getting is that pilots are bidding to top the other guys. If things aren't so great here at the mainline why in God's green earth are you still here?

You guys sound like you had it better at the commuter! So what the heck are you doing here?

Saabs
11-14-2014, 12:00 PM
At one time I DID care about scope. I even stood on the same ground you did...at ONE TIME. But that was a time when US Airways and American didn't have wholy owned airlines or code sharing agreements. That was negotiated away years ago. Now it's really just nothing more than an echo of buyers remorse. Look, you say the majority of pilots have NO PRICE for scope. Well see about that but I simply say the numbers will prove you wrong...in the long run. Just like it did with scope (whatever is left of it).

If I HAD my druthers, if EVERY SINGLE PILOT AT EVERY SINGLE CARRIER would COMMIT to voting in contracts that they would hire ALL commuter pilots by their ORIGINAL DATE OF HIRE if they were offered the position to mainline (with the option of deferring with their own knowledge that they would get bypassed on their seniority if they didn't take the offer) I would be the FIRST to STAND IN LINE AND SUPPORT IT.

In the REAL WORLD the reasons Comair and Envoy are getting what they got or ARE getting is that pilots are bidding to top the other guys. If things aren't so great here at the mainline why in God's green earth are you still here?

You guys sound like you had it better at the commuter! So what the heck are you doing here?

:rolleyes:

Route66
11-14-2014, 12:00 PM
It really doesn't matter, but is this clown an actual pilot on the LUS side?

I assure you I am a Captain on the LUS side.

Saabs
11-14-2014, 12:03 PM
I assure you I am a Captain on the LUS side.

:rolleyes:

eaglefly
11-14-2014, 12:33 PM
At one time I DID care about scope. I even stood on the same ground you did...at ONE TIME. But that was a time when US Airways and American didn't have wholy owned airlines or code sharing agreements. That was negotiated away years ago. Now it's really just nothing more than an echo of buyers remorse. Look, you say the majority of pilots have NO PRICE for scope. Well see about that but I simply say the numbers will prove you wrong...in the long run. Just like it did with scope (whatever is left of it).

I didn't say the majority of pilots have no price for scope. Some do, but for others there IS a price. I think the majority who do have a price for scope though, think this offer falls short. The APA counter just MAY not demand complete ignorance of any scope alterations, BTW. My point is that scope (like it or not) IS considered a bargaining chip. That doesn't mean it's automatically used, but doesn't mean it won't. As I said before, I'm not that concerned about scope and any misguided need Parker has for loading up NOW on 70-seat jets. If they're ostensibly going to be placed at regionals, I'll have a lot of laughs watching Parker make that work. I don't see scope relaxation as any win for him as the present number of airframes is destined to shrink considerably and adding seats to those fewer airframes will be a Pyrrhic victory in the long run for him in both the emptyness of the payoff and the bridges he burned to get that empty payoff.

If I HAD my druthers, if EVERY SINGLE PILOT AT EVERY SINGLE CARRIER would COMMIT to voting in contracts that they would hire ALL commuter pilots by their ORIGINAL DATE OF HIRE if they were offered the position to mainline (with the option of deferring with their own knowledge that they would get bypassed on their seniority if they didn't take the offer) I would be the FIRST to STAND IN LINE AND SUPPORT IT.

In the REAL WORLD the reasons Comair and Envoy are getting what they got or ARE getting is that pilots are bidding to top the other guys. If things aren't so great here at the mainline why in God's green earth are you still here?

You guys sound like you had it better at the commuter! So what the heck are you doing here?

The old "commuter" wasn't a bad gig, but it ran its course. Too many wanted to turn it into an upgrade mill at all costs and that we agree. Management loved it (and obviously Parker still does, although DAL and UAL see the future), but now the inevitable by-product of that philosophy had come home to roost and few want to make huge time and financial investment for a crap existence and murky promises.

Just about the time this proposal's duration arrives, this same philosophy will come home to roost at the legacies and then Parker (or the poor sap who inherits that disaster) will be screwed. That day WILL come and if I'm even still in this so-called profession, I'm confident I'll watch his pleas will be met with shrugged shoulders and best wishes.

eaglefly
11-14-2014, 12:34 PM
I assure you I am a Captain on the LUS side.

How unfortunate for East pilots. :cool:

Spoiler
11-14-2014, 01:03 PM
Let me ask the question: which is more onerous to Scope, the 5 seats or the latest proposal???
Have any of our number crunching types ferreted that out?

eaglefly
11-14-2014, 01:09 PM
Let me ask the question: which is more onerous to Scope, the 5 seats or the latest proposal???
Have any of our number crunching types ferreted that out?

The scope committee has and has made realistic scope comparisons with Delta and United to determine exactly what industry average scope is and where the initial proposal put us.

Spoiler
11-14-2014, 01:29 PM
But since they got blindsided with this last proposal - did they make the comparison? granted this may be an unknown

Route66
11-14-2014, 01:38 PM
I didn't say the majority of pilots have no price for scope. Some do, but for others there IS a price. I think the majority who do have a price for scope though, think this offer falls short. The APA counter just MAY not demand complete ignorance of any scope alterations, BTW. My point is that scope (like it or not) IS considered a bargaining chip. That doesn't mean it's automatically used, but doesn't mean it won't. As I said before, I'm not that concerned about scope and any misguided need Parker has for loading up NOW on 70-seat jets. If they're ostensibly going to be placed at regionals, I'll have a lot of laughs watching Parker make that work. I don't see scope relaxation as any win for him as the present number of airframes is destined to shrink considerably and adding seats to those fewer airframes will be a Pyrrhic victory in the long run for him in both the emptyness of the payoff and the bridges he burned to get that empty payoff.



The old "commuter" wasn't a bad gig, but it ran its course. Too many wanted to turn it into an upgrade mill at all costs and that we agree. Management loved it (and obviously Parker still does, although DAL and UAL see the future), but now the inevitable by-product of that philosophy had come home to roost and few want to make huge time and financial investment for a crap existence and murky promises.

Just about the time this proposal's duration arrives, this same philosophy will come home to roost at the legacies and then Parker (or the poor sap who inherits that disaster) will be screwed. That day WILL come and if I'm even still in this so-called profession, I'm confident I'll watch his pleas will be met with shrugged shoulders and best wishes.

So,it sounds as if we have roughly the same perspective on scope yet you say "How unfortunate for East pilots". Why? Because that I agree with you that the APA CAN use scope as a bargaining chip as well? Again, I agree. Every provision of a contract has some value, it's just a matter of getting both sides to agree as to what that value is. How much? Who really knows.

If the APA were smart, which I don't believe they are, they will provide a cost comparison with what the company offered and what they roughly think they'll get with arbitration and let YOU DECIDE for yourself.

Now, is THAT unreasonable?

shiznit
11-14-2014, 01:57 PM
So,it sounds as if we have roughly the same perspective on scope yet you say "How unfortunate for East pilots". Why? Because that I agree with you that the APA CAN use scope as a bargaining chip as well? Again, I agree. Every provision of a contract has some value, it's just a matter of getting both sides to agree as to what that value is. How much? Who really knows.

If the APA were smart, which I don't believe they are, they will provide a cost comparison with what the company offered and what they roughly think they'll get with arbitration and let YOU DECIDE for yourself.

Now, is THAT unreasonable?
I don't think it's about the $$$ value.
There is no price you can put on job security.

SCOPE! SCOPE! SCOPE!

Route66
11-14-2014, 01:57 PM
The scope committee has and has made realistic scope comparisons with Delta and United to determine exactly what industry average scope is and where the initial proposal put us.

Does it really matter what defines "industry average"? You say potatoe I say pot TA toe. What are you purchasing with scope, really. The purpose of scope is to have more mainly jobs at higher pay rates then at commuter wages. Right?

But scope has to encompass the commuters at ALL carriers, not just ours. What I think the APA needs to factor is NOT scope feeding OUR airline, it should be scope feeding ALL airlines. That is the reality. Remember those carriers feeding the competition are competing for revenue (ergo jobs) with us and our carriers.

So, where's the humanity on THAT? Nowhere to be found here!

Route66
11-14-2014, 01:59 PM
I don't think it's about the $$$ value.
There is no price you can put on job security.

SCOPE! SCOPE! SCOPE!

How about DOPE, DOPE, DOPE! There is ALWAYS a price for a contract item.

eaglefly
11-14-2014, 03:28 PM
So,it sounds as if we have roughly the same perspective on scope yet you say "How unfortunate for East pilots". Why? Because that I agree with you that the APA CAN use scope as a bargaining chip as well? Again, I agree. Every provision of a contract has some value, it's just a matter of getting both sides to agree as to what that value is. How much? Who really knows.

We do not have the same perspective. You don't care about it anymore and I certainly still do.

If the APA were smart, which I don't believe they are, they will provide a cost comparison with what the company offered and what they roughly think they'll get with arbitration and let YOU DECIDE for yourself.

Now, is THAT unreasonable?

In other words neuter themselves and us making the only issue between what's already been offered and arbitration ?

Now THAT sounds like one of Jerry's kids talking. In other words, negotiate directly with the pilots by proxy. Sorry, but that's just playing into managements hands and succumbing to their game. My, my......you're absolutely all over the place in your representations, aren't you ?

One post sounding like a raving lunatic, another attempting to sound like a rational sympathetic fellow pilot and here like a management lackey. Even a chameleon would be impressed. ;)

eaglefly
11-14-2014, 03:31 PM
Does it really matter what defines "industry average"? You say potatoe I say pot TA toe. What are you purchasing with scope, really. The purpose of scope is to have more mainly jobs at higher pay rates then at commuter wages. Right?

But scope has to encompass the commuters at ALL carriers, not just ours. What I think the APA needs to factor is NOT scope feeding OUR airline, it should be scope feeding ALL airlines. That is the reality. Remember those carriers feeding the competition are competing for revenue (ergo jobs) with us and our carriers.

So, where's the humanity on THAT? Nowhere to be found here!

Clearly, you're willing to put forth any argument and hypothesis no matter how misguided to support your positions and lend credibility to your arguments. I think you're really making no headway here, so perhaps you'd be more effective communicating directly with APA ?

After all, they are you're reps, are they not ? :rolleyes:

eaglefly
11-14-2014, 03:35 PM
How about DOPE, DOPE, DOPE! There is ALWAYS a price for a contract item.

Wellllll, pot IS legal in Colorado and Washington. Perhaps Parker could purchase, say...........a half ton of Thai stick as a stipend for each pilots retirement for them to sell at market rates ?

Kinda like the equity claim ? :p

Route66
11-14-2014, 03:46 PM
We do not have the same perspective. You don't care about it anymore and I certainly still do.



In other words neuter themselves and us making the only issue what's already been offered and arbitration ?

Now THAT sounds like one of Jerry's kids talking. In other words, negotiate directly with the pilots by proxy. Sorry, but that's just playing into managements hands and succumbing to their game. My, my......you're absolutely all over the place in your representations, aren't you ?

One post sounding like a raving lunatic, another attempting to sound like a rational sympathetic fellow pilot and here like a management lackey. Even a chameleon would be impressed. ;)

So I'm one of Jerry's kids, huh. Why don't you go tell THAT to all the pilots who attend the Scott and Doug road shows???

OK. Go for it. You're right, I don't care about scope anymore because most of it has already been given away as it is from PRIOR contracts INCLUDING the MOU!!! READ IT before you criticize me.

I'm not all over the place. Raving lunatic, huh. You're the poster child for rational thought....NOT. Typical new hire commuter pilot. Welcome to the big leagues.

BTW, I'm certainly NOT sympathetic to those who LOVE to emasculate (or neuter) themselves on their contract understanding...or should I say LACK THEREOF!

See you out on the picket line emasculating yourself, bub....I'll be on the flightline doing what the MOU and eventually the CBA will have us do.

Route66
11-14-2014, 03:47 PM
Wellllll, pot IS legal in Colorado and Washington. Perhaps Parker could purchase, say...........a half ton of Thai stick as a stipend for each pilots retirement for them to sell at market rates ?

Kinda like the equity claim ? :p

Kind of like calling for illegal job actions and saying your not!

Route66
11-14-2014, 03:51 PM
Clearly, you're willing to put forth any argument and hypothesis no matter how misguided to support your positions and lend credibility to your arguments. I think you're really making no headway here, so perhaps you'd be more effective communicating directly with APA ?

After all, they are you're reps, are they not ? :rolleyes:

Not my reps. You can keep that APA kryap all to yourself. Besides, APA are the ones who claim they know better than the USAPA pilots what they're up against. Let them show us ALL how it's done!! The American professionals like you....aka the Hitler Youth.

eaglefly
11-14-2014, 03:53 PM
Kind of like calling for illegal job actions and saying your not!

I certainly hope you're not referring to me. But then again, it wouldn't surprise me. Nothing you say here surprises me. :cool:

eaglefly
11-14-2014, 04:06 PM
Not my reps. You can keep that APA kryap all to yourself. Besides, APA are the ones who claim they know better than the USAPA pilots what they're up against. Let them show us ALL how it's done!! The American professionals like you....aka the Hitler Youth.

Well, back to the raving lunatic. :rolleyes:

Route66
11-14-2014, 04:06 PM
Whoa. STOP THE PRESSES: APA CAVES ON SCOPE!

Who's your DADDY now, "APA PILOTS"???

JCBA Update: Negotiations Continuing

As reported earlier in a hotline message, the APA Negotiating Committee presented management with a comprehensive counter-proposal today designed to address the deficiencies in management's initial JCBA proposals.

Management's negotiators responded by indicating they would like to review our proposal during the next couple of days and prepare a response. Accordingly, our negotiating teams will meet again early next week. The APA board of directors recessed its meeting mid-afternoon and will reconvene Tuesday afternoon.

Key elements of our comprehensive counter-proposal include the following:

Scope modifications (review details here with proposed changes shown in "track changes" form)
In lieu of profit-sharing, a pay component of 10 percent above the following pay rates:
Group I A 16.29 percent increase over the Jan. 1, 2015, MTA rate, but not less than the applicable first-year pay rate
Group II An increase to match DL 737-800 2015 pay rate
Group III An increase to match DL 767-300 2015 pay rate
Group IV An increase to match DL 777 2015 pay rate
Group V A 16.29 percent increase over the Jan. 1, 2015, MTA rate

3.5 percent increase on Jan. 1, 2016
3.5 percent increase on Jan. 1, 2017
3.5 percent increase on Jan. 1, 2018
3.5 percent increase on Jan. 1, 2019

Mid-contract compensation adjustment: On the earlier of:
The effective date of a new Delta Air Lines Pilot Agreement, or
The effective date of a new United Airlines Pilot Agreement
But not earlier than Jan. 1, 2017, pay rates in Section 3 will be adjusted to the higher of the rates in the AA JCBA, the DL CBA or the UA CBA
Make A321 pay equivalent to Group III pay
Average day value of 5:20 applied to "calendar day"
Length-of-service credit for pilots with furlough time
Improvements to Long Term Disability (LTD) benefit to include increase to monthly cap and duration
Fellow pilots, we are committed to securing a negotiated agreement commensurate with your sacrifices, your role in bringing the merger to fruition and your critical role in our revitalized airline's day-to-day success. As the pilots who fly for the world's largest airline a company producing the highest profits in its entire history nothing less will do.
Sorry to be the bearer of BAD TIDINGS!!!

Gallifrey
11-14-2014, 04:06 PM
Apa scope proposal is priceless. I'm glad they will hold the line. Also, delta + 10% is nice with 3.5% per year plus a mid contract review of united and delta.

Route66
11-14-2014, 04:07 PM
Well, back to the raving lunatic. :rolleyes:

So how do you feel about your brethren cave in to Jerry NOW?

Route66
11-14-2014, 04:09 PM
Apa scope proposal is priceless. I'm glad they will hold the line. Also, delta + 10% is nice with 3.5% per year plus a mid contract review of united and delta.

OK....what IS the scope proposal, then? I wouldn't be going to the bank just yet.

eaglefly
11-14-2014, 04:10 PM
So I'm one of Jerry's kids, huh. Why don't you go tell THAT to all the pilots who attend the Scott and Doug road shows???

OK. Go for it. You're right, I don't care about scope anymore because most of it has already been given away as it is from PRIOR contracts INCLUDING the MOU!!! READ IT before you criticize me.

I'm not all over the place. Raving lunatic, huh. You're the poster child for rational thought....NOT. Typical new hire commuter pilot. Welcome to the big leagues.

BTW, I'm certainly NOT sympathetic to those who LOVE to emasculate (or neuter) themselves on their contract understanding...or should I say LACK THEREOF!

See you out on the picket line emasculating yourself, bub....I'll be on the flightline doing what the MOU and eventually the CBA will have us do.

Yes, if it ever came to that, I have no doubt you'd happily cross any picket line. It seems you're beginning to come quite unglued. Perhaps it's time to pour that 12th scotch and call it a night here ? :rolleyes:

eaglefly
11-14-2014, 04:13 PM
So how do you feel about your brethren cave in to Jerry NOW?

They totally caved..........Really ?

LOL !!!

12% of mainline is 50-70 seats and 26% is 76-seats. Since those are the two primary future aircraft threats, I'd hardly call that a cave. It's actually competitive. Look what's requested to allow that regarding pay and other alterations.

Have you considered EAP ?

It really could save your life.

Route66
11-14-2014, 04:56 PM
Yes, if it ever came to that, I have no doubt you'd happily cross any picket line. It seems you're beginning to come quite unglued. Perhaps it's time to pour that 12th scotch and call it a night here ? :rolleyes:
There it is! Typical new hire using that reason and logic again. Always comes down to personal quips with you union lackeys over reason and logic.

Here let me equate, then. Go get yourself a fifth of rye at Wally world and continue to drown in your squalor.

BTW, at least I could afford scotch if I wanted it.

Here is the typical answer from the pilot survey over at the APA web boards. I count 90 pilots in the "sampling". Small amount for sure, but it seems the pilots will do what they always do....looks like the current book rates for 4 more years plus the increments. Enjoy!

Below is a sampling of the response from line pilots to the company's offer from Sound-Off;

want to go to Arbitration
Insulting. Move scope from one area to another and tell us they pulled scope off the table. Insulting. Pay proposal that doesn't include profit sharing. Insulting. qol issues go unresolved.
THE LARGEST AIRLINE IN THE WORLD AND THEY PUT THIS ACROSS THE TABLE?
This is an insult from the company. Along with the pay there has to be quality of life improvements.
Send this back to them and tell them to come up with a real proposal.
Please reject this proposal and accept no concessions on SCOPE.
Unless there is something behind the curtain to all of this in our "quality of life" then I support this being rejected at the board level.
I hope that you are as insulted as I am. I am ready for arbitration
Clearly, IMO, the BOD will need to flatly reject and counter this slap in the face. No need to involve the membership
Please, no more extensions, no more delays. Proceed with the agreed to cost-neutral Arbitration.
Just say no! Hand them back their sheet of paper and tell them to try again when they truly value our service. The raise is 16 months away and that is fine.
No QOL Improvements = No Vote
Delta Book rates plus 3 compounded...
NO QUID (they already have that... THE AIRLINE)
NO contract DURATION extension
No Extension!
No Give on SCOPE!
No concessions! We already gave - TWICE
NO Middle of the night landings! That is just another Quality of Life give away.
NO NO NO!
Please do NOT send this piece of garbage proposal to a vote
I will vote no on anything that even resembles this POS.
the company offer is not adequate to even consider for a five year contract. Return that piece of paper to the sender.
Please do not negotiate from this insult.
Industry Leading Contract NOW!!
Absolutely not. Go to arbitration
The company's proposal is not only NOT comprehensive, it is NOT "industry leading."
No to Parker.
The "comprehensive non-proposal" from Kirby/Parker is DOA.
What Kirby put on the table is a joke
Not only was the "offer" insulting; the manner in which it was delivered (talking points with little specifics) was disgusting.
We pilots do an A+ job for a company that makes A+ profits. This "proposal" is a D-
A total slap in the face! Pay rates would have to go up another 15% if they refuse profit sharing.
They blew it. Only going to do my job & no one else's. So much for a new day.
Industry lagging W2 with industry lagging work rules and neglected QOL issues is an insult to every pilot here
Please vote no on the company proposal. It's an insult and I for one would rather wait another year to attain already agreed upon pay rates without all of the give backs
Disgusted. Disrespectful. A class of 5th graders could have came up with a more "comprehensive" proposal!
To be clear - AAs offer is wholly unacceptable.
does not take into account what Delta is really making or going to make with profit sharing
Make an Industry leading counter and put the ball back in their court.
This is at least 20-25% behind Delta. Our best leverage is to terminate all cooperation if we do not receive a Delta contract
Tell them to go to hell, never expect anybody to do more than their job, and we will see you in arbitration.
Hope they like a United/Continental outcome versus a Delta/Northwest!
The membership pilots just got a swift kick in the nuts. I think we are all on the same page going forward that this "offer" is DOA.
Please vote NO and AAG management will have to live with the consequences!
Doug Parker was quoted as saying that we'll get a Delta contract when we make Delta profits. Well, we've exceeded Delta's profits, and virtually all analysts agree that AA will continue to make profits of at least $4 billion per year into the foreseeable future.
"DAL + 3%" is industry lagging even without considering profit sharing. We need to get DAL's "new 2015" pay rates plus profit sharing.
You granted an extension for this proposal! Pathetic! Time to act like a union! Nothing has changed
Ask them if they want a DAL merger or a United operation.
After seeing the pathetic offer by management, I realized this management team is only different in name
You have got to be kidding me?!!!
In light of the totally unacceptable proposal from management, and in light of the staggering profits currently being made by this company, it is clear that the tactics of APA have to change.
No Way!
2015 pay rates below 2001 rates!
No profit sharing!
Please send the management "comprehensive" proposal back to them with a big red NO scribbled on it.
If you chose to negotiate with them again please let them know that the honeymoon is definitely over with the pilots of APA and that they have wasted a golden opportunity to get cooperation and more productivity from the pilots.
falls way short of delta... No thx
The proposal is unacceptable. Please do not send this POS to the membership. The new management is the same as the old. It's obvious they do not require our goodwill, just send it to arbitration and be done with it. Maybe Delta will get a raise? We might be better off....
The company offer is solely inadequate. I am prepared to wait till 2016 for my raise as contractually agreed upon To sum up……F&%# THEM!!!
The company trumpeted their carefully worded "industry leading pay" (not contract) DAL+3% to make us look like the bad guys when we turn it down.
INSULTING.
In light of the Comprehensive Proposal grab, I am asking the BoDs to NOT vote on the proposal. Just send it back
APA needs to officially make LOS a prerequisite to negotiations.
No Extension and Industry leading Contract. I vote to go to arbitration/cost neutral contract if need be instead of accepting this company proposal
Not even anywhere close to actual "Delta +3%". Send it back. I'll take arbitration.
The Proposal is DOA.
No Arbitration
NO CHANGES TO SCOPE
a LIMITED EXTENSION only IF there is basis for Negotiation
This is a complete NON STARTER!!!!! No mention or movement on any of the critical issue the pilots absolutely REQUIRE!!
Please send this junk back to Parker, don't vote on it and certainly please do not send to us.
Please strongly consider this deal and send it to the members.
We have been played...... You are forgiven.....Now let's get REAL with the Membership about HERE AND NOW!
Spin it any way you want, I have a right to vote. Send it to the membership.
I would rather make less money than give up scope or work rules!
Send the proposal to the membership for a vote.
Not one seat. No amount of $ justifies an increase in scope
Enough is enough! No more extensions. The company has had plenty of time to do the right thing. If we do not have an honest proposal by the deadline, I'm okay with arbitration.
I simply want to add my name to the long list of pilots that ask you to stand firm and insist on an ILC
We need an Industry Leading Contract NOW!
Refuse to counter nor meet with management. (especially this "son of Brundreg" dude). A three word response sends a huge message to all parties: "not good enough".
The 3% a year is not even joke level. We need ISC!!
please turn down this proposal, it is insulting to our profession.
You will need to get much higher pay rates without profit sharing as part of the deal. Otherwise I see no reason to vote for the "Economic Package"
Please don't even bother voting on the company proposal. Just send it back. It only showed that the company has no respect for us. This proposal looks as if it was thrown together in a meeting that couldn't have taken more than 2 hours. It's a joke.
Put it a paper bag, poop on it, light it on fire and leave on the CP doorstep
Totally lacking any meaningful contract advancements, it was far short of adequately addressing our concerns.
All 8 are not even a consideration for me to compromise. We are the most profitable airline. Please act accordingly
To quote The Who… Meet the new boss, same as the old boss

PurpleTurtle
11-14-2014, 05:02 PM
They totally caved..........Really ?

LOL !!!

12% of mainline is 50-70 seats and 26% is 76-seats. Since those are the two primary future aircraft threats, I'd hardly call that a cave. It's actually competitive. Look what's requested to allow that regarding pay and other alterations.

Have you considered EAP ?

It really could save your life.

The APA RJ counter was a huge reduction to the company offer. The Jerry's Kids poster is in full apoplectic mode.


The company proposal was RJ numbers well over 100% of narrow body. The APA counter and the company are very far apart, nothing will be decided anytime soon.

The holidays will be good for all of us to just enjoy some time away.

eaglefly
11-14-2014, 05:07 PM
There it is! Typical new hire using that reason and logic again. Always comes down to personal quips with you union lackeys over reason and logic.

Here let me equate, then. Go get yourself a fifth of rye at Wally world and continue to drown in your squalor.

BTW, at least I could afford scotch if I wanted it.

Here is the typical answer from the pilot survey over at the APA web boards. I count 90 pilots in the "sampling". Small amount for sure, but it seems the pilots will do what they always do....looks like the current book rates for 4 more years plus the increments. Enjoy!

Below is a sampling of the response from line pilots to the company's offer from Sound-Off;

want to go to Arbitration
Insulting. Move scope from one area to another and tell us they pulled scope off the table. Insulting. Pay proposal that doesn't include profit sharing. Insulting. qol issues go unresolved.
THE LARGEST AIRLINE IN THE WORLD AND THEY PUT THIS ACROSS THE TABLE?
This is an insult from the company. Along with the pay there has to be quality of life improvements.
Send this back to them and tell them to come up with a real proposal.
Please reject this proposal and accept no concessions on SCOPE.
Unless there is something behind the curtain to all of this in our "quality of life" then I support this being rejected at the board level.
I hope that you are as insulted as I am. I am ready for arbitration
Clearly, IMO, the BOD will need to flatly reject and counter this slap in the face. No need to involve the membership
Please, no more extensions, no more delays. Proceed with the agreed to cost-neutral Arbitration.
Just say no! Hand them back their sheet of paper and tell them to try again when they truly value our service. The raise is 16 months away and that is fine.
No QOL Improvements = No Vote
Delta Book rates plus 3 compounded...
NO QUID (they already have that... THE AIRLINE)
NO contract DURATION extension
No Extension!
No Give on SCOPE!
No concessions! We already gave - TWICE
NO Middle of the night landings! That is just another Quality of Life give away.
NO NO NO!
Please do NOT send this piece of garbage proposal to a vote
I will vote no on anything that even resembles this POS.
the company offer is not adequate to even consider for a five year contract. Return that piece of paper to the sender.
Please do not negotiate from this insult.
Industry Leading Contract NOW!!
Absolutely not. Go to arbitration
The company's proposal is not only NOT comprehensive, it is NOT "industry leading."
No to Parker.
The "comprehensive non-proposal" from Kirby/Parker is DOA.
What Kirby put on the table is a joke
Not only was the "offer" insulting; the manner in which it was delivered (talking points with little specifics) was disgusting.
We pilots do an A+ job for a company that makes A+ profits. This "proposal" is a D-
A total slap in the face! Pay rates would have to go up another 15% if they refuse profit sharing.
They blew it. Only going to do my job & no one else's. So much for a new day.
Industry lagging W2 with industry lagging work rules and neglected QOL issues is an insult to every pilot here
Please vote no on the company proposal. It's an insult and I for one would rather wait another year to attain already agreed upon pay rates without all of the give backs
Disgusted. Disrespectful. A class of 5th graders could have came up with a more "comprehensive" proposal!
To be clear - AAs offer is wholly unacceptable.
does not take into account what Delta is really making or going to make with profit sharing
Make an Industry leading counter and put the ball back in their court.
This is at least 20-25% behind Delta. Our best leverage is to terminate all cooperation if we do not receive a Delta contract
Tell them to go to hell, never expect anybody to do more than their job, and we will see you in arbitration.
Hope they like a United/Continental outcome versus a Delta/Northwest!
The membership pilots just got a swift kick in the nuts. I think we are all on the same page going forward that this "offer" is DOA.
Please vote NO and AAG management will have to live with the consequences!
Doug Parker was quoted as saying that we'll get a Delta contract when we make Delta profits. Well, we've exceeded Delta's profits, and virtually all analysts agree that AA will continue to make profits of at least $4 billion per year into the foreseeable future.
"DAL + 3%" is industry lagging even without considering profit sharing. We need to get DAL's "new 2015" pay rates plus profit sharing.
You granted an extension for this proposal! Pathetic! Time to act like a union! Nothing has changed
Ask them if they want a DAL merger or a United operation.
After seeing the pathetic offer by management, I realized this management team is only different in name
You have got to be kidding me?!!!
In light of the totally unacceptable proposal from management, and in light of the staggering profits currently being made by this company, it is clear that the tactics of APA have to change.
No Way!
2015 pay rates below 2001 rates!
No profit sharing!
Please send the management "comprehensive" proposal back to them with a big red NO scribbled on it.
If you chose to negotiate with them again please let them know that the honeymoon is definitely over with the pilots of APA and that they have wasted a golden opportunity to get cooperation and more productivity from the pilots.
falls way short of delta... No thx
The proposal is unacceptable. Please do not send this POS to the membership. The new management is the same as the old. It's obvious they do not require our goodwill, just send it to arbitration and be done with it. Maybe Delta will get a raise? We might be better off....
The company offer is solely inadequate. I am prepared to wait till 2016 for my raise as contractually agreed upon To sum up……F&%# THEM!!!
The company trumpeted their carefully worded "industry leading pay" (not contract) DAL+3% to make us look like the bad guys when we turn it down.
INSULTING.
In light of the Comprehensive Proposal grab, I am asking the BoDs to NOT vote on the proposal. Just send it back
APA needs to officially make LOS a prerequisite to negotiations.
No Extension and Industry leading Contract. I vote to go to arbitration/cost neutral contract if need be instead of accepting this company proposal
Not even anywhere close to actual "Delta +3%". Send it back. I'll take arbitration.
The Proposal is DOA.
No Arbitration
NO CHANGES TO SCOPE
a LIMITED EXTENSION only IF there is basis for Negotiation
This is a complete NON STARTER!!!!! No mention or movement on any of the critical issue the pilots absolutely REQUIRE!!
Please send this junk back to Parker, don't vote on it and certainly please do not send to us.
Please strongly consider this deal and send it to the members.
We have been played...... You are forgiven.....Now let's get REAL with the Membership about HERE AND NOW!
Spin it any way you want, I have a right to vote. Send it to the membership.
I would rather make less money than give up scope or work rules!
Send the proposal to the membership for a vote.
Not one seat. No amount of $ justifies an increase in scope
Enough is enough! No more extensions. The company has had plenty of time to do the right thing. If we do not have an honest proposal by the deadline, I'm okay with arbitration.
I simply want to add my name to the long list of pilots that ask you to stand firm and insist on an ILC
We need an Industry Leading Contract NOW!
Refuse to counter nor meet with management. (especially this "son of Brundreg" dude). A three word response sends a huge message to all parties: "not good enough".
The 3% a year is not even joke level. We need ISC!!
please turn down this proposal, it is insulting to our profession.
You will need to get much higher pay rates without profit sharing as part of the deal. Otherwise I see no reason to vote for the "Economic Package"
Please don't even bother voting on the company proposal. Just send it back. It only showed that the company has no respect for us. This proposal looks as if it was thrown together in a meeting that couldn't have taken more than 2 hours. It's a joke.
Put it a paper bag, poop on it, light it on fire and leave on the CP doorstep
Totally lacking any meaningful contract advancements, it was far short of adequately addressing our concerns.
All 8 are not even a consideration for me to compromise. We are the most profitable airline. Please act accordingly
To quote The Who… Meet the new boss, same as the old boss

Wow. You'd go so far as to copy and post union info to a public website ?

Talk about a jihad. :cool:

We've got a real loose cannon here folks.

PurpleTurtle
11-14-2014, 05:09 PM
Wow. You'd go so far as to copy and post union info to a public website ?

Talk about a jihad. :cool:

We've got a real loose cannon here folks.

He's an agitator. Leave him alone. He is probably getting paid by the number of reply posts he can generate. :D

eaglefly
11-14-2014, 05:11 PM
He's an agitator. Leave him alone. He is probably getting paid by the number of reply posts he can generate. :D

........;)

Saabs
11-14-2014, 05:12 PM
There it is! Typical new hire using that reason and logic again. Always comes down to personal quips with you union lackeys over reason and logic.

Here let me equate, then. Go get yourself a fifth of rye at Wally world and continue to drown in your squalor.

BTW, at least I could afford scotch if I wanted it.

Here is the typical answer from the pilot survey over at the APA web boards. I count 90 pilots in the "sampling". Small amount for sure, but it seems the pilots will do what they always do....looks like the current book rates for 4 more years plus the increments. Enjoy!

Below is a sampling of the response from line pilots to the company's offer from Sound-Off;

want to go to Arbitration
Insulting. Move scope from one area to another and tell us they pulled scope off the table. Insulting. Pay proposal that doesn't include profit sharing. Insulting. qol issues go unresolved.
THE LARGEST AIRLINE IN THE WORLD AND THEY PUT THIS ACROSS THE TABLE?
This is an insult from the company. Along with the pay there has to be quality of life improvements.
Send this back to them and tell them to come up with a real proposal.
Please reject this proposal and accept no concessions on SCOPE.
Unless there is something behind the curtain to all of this in our "quality of life" then I support this being rejected at the board level.
I hope that you are as insulted as I am. I am ready for arbitration
Clearly, IMO, the BOD will need to flatly reject and counter this slap in the face. No need to involve the membership
Please, no more extensions, no more delays. Proceed with the agreed to cost-neutral Arbitration.
Just say no! Hand them back their sheet of paper and tell them to try again when they truly value our service. The raise is 16 months away and that is fine.
No QOL Improvements = No Vote
Delta Book rates plus 3 compounded...
NO QUID (they already have that... THE AIRLINE)
NO contract DURATION extension
No Extension!
No Give on SCOPE!
No concessions! We already gave - TWICE
NO Middle of the night landings! That is just another Quality of Life give away.
NO NO NO!
Please do NOT send this piece of garbage proposal to a vote
I will vote no on anything that even resembles this POS.
the company offer is not adequate to even consider for a five year contract. Return that piece of paper to the sender.
Please do not negotiate from this insult.
Industry Leading Contract NOW!!
Absolutely not. Go to arbitration
The company's proposal is not only NOT comprehensive, it is NOT "industry leading."
No to Parker.
The "comprehensive non-proposal" from Kirby/Parker is DOA.
What Kirby put on the table is a joke
Not only was the "offer" insulting; the manner in which it was delivered (talking points with little specifics) was disgusting.
We pilots do an A+ job for a company that makes A+ profits. This "proposal" is a D-
A total slap in the face! Pay rates would have to go up another 15% if they refuse profit sharing.
They blew it. Only going to do my job & no one else's. So much for a new day.
Industry lagging W2 with industry lagging work rules and neglected QOL issues is an insult to every pilot here
Please vote no on the company proposal. It's an insult and I for one would rather wait another year to attain already agreed upon pay rates without all of the give backs
Disgusted. Disrespectful. A class of 5th graders could have came up with a more "comprehensive" proposal!
To be clear - AAs offer is wholly unacceptable.
does not take into account what Delta is really making or going to make with profit sharing
Make an Industry leading counter and put the ball back in their court.
This is at least 20-25% behind Delta. Our best leverage is to terminate all cooperation if we do not receive a Delta contract
Tell them to go to hell, never expect anybody to do more than their job, and we will see you in arbitration.
Hope they like a United/Continental outcome versus a Delta/Northwest!
The membership pilots just got a swift kick in the nuts. I think we are all on the same page going forward that this "offer" is DOA.
Please vote NO and AAG management will have to live with the consequences!
Doug Parker was quoted as saying that we'll get a Delta contract when we make Delta profits. Well, we've exceeded Delta's profits, and virtually all analysts agree that AA will continue to make profits of at least $4 billion per year into the foreseeable future.
"DAL + 3%" is industry lagging even without considering profit sharing. We need to get DAL's "new 2015" pay rates plus profit sharing.
You granted an extension for this proposal! Pathetic! Time to act like a union! Nothing has changed
Ask them if they want a DAL merger or a United operation.
After seeing the pathetic offer by management, I realized this management team is only different in name
You have got to be kidding me?!!!
In light of the totally unacceptable proposal from management, and in light of the staggering profits currently being made by this company, it is clear that the tactics of APA have to change.
No Way!
2015 pay rates below 2001 rates!
No profit sharing!
Please send the management "comprehensive" proposal back to them with a big red NO scribbled on it.
If you chose to negotiate with them again please let them know that the honeymoon is definitely over with the pilots of APA and that they have wasted a golden opportunity to get cooperation and more productivity from the pilots.
falls way short of delta... No thx
The proposal is unacceptable. Please do not send this POS to the membership. The new management is the same as the old. It's obvious they do not require our goodwill, just send it to arbitration and be done with it. Maybe Delta will get a raise? We might be better off....
The company offer is solely inadequate. I am prepared to wait till 2016 for my raise as contractually agreed upon To sum up……F&%# THEM!!!
The company trumpeted their carefully worded "industry leading pay" (not contract) DAL+3% to make us look like the bad guys when we turn it down.
INSULTING.
In light of the Comprehensive Proposal grab, I am asking the BoDs to NOT vote on the proposal. Just send it back
APA needs to officially make LOS a prerequisite to negotiations.
No Extension and Industry leading Contract. I vote to go to arbitration/cost neutral contract if need be instead of accepting this company proposal
Not even anywhere close to actual "Delta +3%". Send it back. I'll take arbitration.
The Proposal is DOA.
No Arbitration
NO CHANGES TO SCOPE
a LIMITED EXTENSION only IF there is basis for Negotiation
This is a complete NON STARTER!!!!! No mention or movement on any of the critical issue the pilots absolutely REQUIRE!!
Please send this junk back to Parker, don't vote on it and certainly please do not send to us.
Please strongly consider this deal and send it to the members.
We have been played...... You are forgiven.....Now let's get REAL with the Membership about HERE AND NOW!
Spin it any way you want, I have a right to vote. Send it to the membership.
I would rather make less money than give up scope or work rules!
Send the proposal to the membership for a vote.
Not one seat. No amount of $ justifies an increase in scope
Enough is enough! No more extensions. The company has had plenty of time to do the right thing. If we do not have an honest proposal by the deadline, I'm okay with arbitration.
I simply want to add my name to the long list of pilots that ask you to stand firm and insist on an ILC
We need an Industry Leading Contract NOW!
Refuse to counter nor meet with management. (especially this "son of Brundreg" dude). A three word response sends a huge message to all parties: "not good enough".
The 3% a year is not even joke level. We need ISC!!
please turn down this proposal, it is insulting to our profession.
You will need to get much higher pay rates without profit sharing as part of the deal. Otherwise I see no reason to vote for the "Economic Package"
Please don't even bother voting on the company proposal. Just send it back. It only showed that the company has no respect for us. This proposal looks as if it was thrown together in a meeting that couldn't have taken more than 2 hours. It's a joke.
Put it a paper bag, poop on it, light it on fire and leave on the CP doorstep
Totally lacking any meaningful contract advancements, it was far short of adequately addressing our concerns.
All 8 are not even a consideration for me to compromise. We are the most profitable airline. Please act accordingly
To quote The Who… Meet the new boss, same as the old boss

:rolleyes:

flyinawa
11-14-2014, 05:56 PM
Wow. You'd go so far as to copy and post union info to a public website ?

Talk about a jihad. :cool:

We've got a real loose cannon here folks.

This pretty much reflects what the West has been dealing with for the last 8 years, but even the East pilots are saying this guy gone *completely* off the reservation.

Route66
11-14-2014, 06:10 PM
Wow. You'd go so far as to copy and post union info to a public website ?

Talk about a jihad. :cool:

We've got a real loose cannon here folks.

Uh, actually it was cut and paste off another public forum. What, do you think what you do over there doesn't get known to the company?

Loose cannon? From everything I heard here I think you're right. I think going to arbitration is much better than what the company or the APA can negotiate.

You guys got your wish. See you in 2019!

R57 relay
11-14-2014, 06:18 PM
This pretty much reflects what the West has been dealing with for the last 8 years, but even the East pilots are saying this guy gone *completely* off the reservation.

Woe is you, drama queen. He posted the rants of pilots. Sort of what is on this public board every day. Real security breach there.

This guy really gets under your skin, doesn't he?

eaglefly
11-14-2014, 06:32 PM
You guys got your wish. See you in 2019!

...........:eek:

Route66
11-14-2014, 06:47 PM
Woe is you, drama queen. He posted the rants of pilots. Sort of what is on this public board every day. Real security breach there.

This guy really gets under your skin, doesn't he?

I think it's because they talk big but think small. And the AWA pilot chimes in about it yet their prolific "cut and paste" posts on everything bad USAPA did is justified in their eyes. Like I ever did ANYTHING on YouTube, FWIW!

Oh the humanity! Cry me a river and save it for the judge.

eaglefly
11-14-2014, 07:00 PM
Cry me a river and save it for the judge.

.....you mean the arbitrator. ;)

Route66
11-14-2014, 07:03 PM
Pilots union makes counterproposal to American Airlines

The Allied Pilots Association sent a contract counterproposal Friday to American Airlines Inc. as the union and airline face a Saturday deadline to come up with a tentative agreement.

But American indicated that the deadline will come and go without a formal response.

“We haven’t reached a deal. We’ll resume discussions next week,” American spokesman Casey Norton said Friday afternoon.

APA spokesman Dennis Tajer said the company did not formally respond Friday to the union’s proposal. “We’re going to continue negotiations next week,” he agreed.

American sent a contract proposal to the APA on Tuesday. The next day, union president Keith Wilson said the airline’s offer was “seriously lacking on various fronts,” and the union’s board of directors put together the counteroffer on Wednesday and Thursday.

Among other elements in Friday’s counter, the union called for larger pay raises. In general, it wants pay rates 10 percent higher than those at Delta Air Lines Inc., since Delta pilots can get profit-sharing and American management opposes profit-sharing. The APA also wants 3.5 percent pay increases in 2016, 2017, 2018 and 2019.

The pay rates proposed by the company had generally been 3 percent above Delta’s.

The Saturday deadline is part of a “memorandum of understanding” signed before the February 2013 deal to merge US Airways and American Airlines. As written, if APA and American don't wrap up negotiations by Saturday, management “will offer final and binding interest arbitration,” and the union “will accept such proffer, to resolve once and for all the terms” of a new joint collective-bargaining agreement.

But the two sides can agree to extend the deadline, as they did when the original deadline came up Oct. 16.

American made its contract offer to the pilots two days after its flight attendants on Sunday narrowly rejected a tentative contract agreement. The two sides are now preparing to go to binding arbitration beginning Dec. 3, barring any new talks between now and then.

On another labor matter, the head of Envoy Air Inc.’s pilots union warned its members that parent American Airlines Group Inc. plans more cutbacks at the regional carrier.

“Unfortunately, we will soon hear additional announcements that were planned by AAG well in advance of our recent dialogue that may have a negative impact on both our operation and our morale,” Air Line Pilots Association leader Sam Pool said Friday.

The cuts are tied to Envoy’s inability to attract and keep enough pilots, not to management’s inability to get contract concessions from the union, said Pool, ALPA master executive council chairman at Envoy.

“Without sufficient pilots, our aircraft are at risk of being parked or, more likely, reassigned to other carriers. Without sufficient pilots, remaining Envoy domiciles may not be properly staffed and consequently face uncertainty,” he wrote.

“And lastly, without a viable growth plan here, AAG will likely attempt to place any new aircraft at other regional carriers,” Pool stated.

Envoy flies as American Eagle. It changed its name from American Eagle Airlines last April.

While there have been rumors of cutbacks at Envoy, the company didn’t disclose any such reductions when asked Friday.

“We don’t have anything to announce with Envoy at this time,” spokeswoman Martha Thom said Friday.

She repeated management’s desire to enlarge Envoy if it could achieve a “competitive” contract with the pilots union.

Pilots union makes counterproposal to American Airlines | Dallas Morning News (http://www.dallasnews.com/business/airline-industry/20141114-pilots-union-makes-counterproposal-to-american-airlines.ece)

drinksonme
11-14-2014, 07:13 PM
^^^^Hey douchbag read the paragraph after your second BOLDED point. READING IS FUN. I am so glad that when I wake up each morning I am not you. BTW how is your EX-wife and kids. I bet better off without you in there lives. Goodnight Mr. "I am a Captain".......assclown

eaglefly
11-15-2014, 05:23 AM
^^^^Hey douchbag read the paragraph after your second BOLDED point. READING IS FUN. I am so glad that when I wake up each morning I am not you. BTW how is your EX-wife and kids. I bet better off without you in there lives. Goodnight Mr. "I am a Captain".......assclown

Terror and panic have taken him over. Reminds me of a rabid dog biting everyone in sight. It's not rabies here, but has gone to the brain. :rolleyes:

Spoiler
11-15-2014, 06:21 AM
a little personal perhaps? you lose when you shout and call names

bigscrillywilli
11-15-2014, 06:39 AM
So is this an extension that they don't want to call an extension? Until when? I can't wait to see their next "kick in the nuts" offer -to quote a union email with member reactions to the comprehensive proposal from Team Tempe.

PurpleTurtle
11-15-2014, 08:08 AM
So is this an extension that they don't want to call an extension? Until when? I can't wait to see their next "kick in the nuts" offer -to quote a union email with member reactions to the comprehensive proposal from Team Tempe.

A careful reading of the MOU regarding the trigger for interest arbitration is quite necessary.

encore
11-15-2014, 09:33 AM
“Unfortunately, we will soon hear additional announcements that were planned by AAG well in advance of our recent dialogue that may have a negative impact on both our operation and our morale,” Air Line Pilots Association leader Sam Pool said Friday.

The cuts are tied to Envoy’s inability to attract and keep enough pilots, not to management’s inability to get contract concessions from the union, said Pool, ALPA master executive council chairman at Envoy.


DOES NOT COMPUTE

Hey idiots, guess what? You can't attract pilots because you don't pay them enough. And if you get concessions and pay them less, you'll attract even fewer pilots.

spaaks
11-16-2014, 08:10 AM
Please don't give an inch on scope! They will absolutely be able to staff 600 large rj's. They want so many so they can replace 50 seaters on a 1:1 basis instead of a 2 or 3:1 basis. Then they will start parking 50 seaters IF they're unable to staff them. Then they get to keep using their broken race to the bottom mgmt style at the regionals

spaaks
11-16-2014, 01:46 PM
Please don't give an inch on scope! They will absolutely be able to staff 600 large rj's. They want so many so they can replace 50 seaters on a 1:1 basis instead of a 2 or 3:1 basis. Then they will start parking 50 seaters IF they're unable to staff them. Then they get to keep using their broken race to the bottom mgmt style at the regionals

And IF they get to a point in the next few yrs where they have staffing problems at the regionals, they'll say "we're keeping all the 70 seaters flying and only parking the 50's, sorry you already agreed to let us fly them so were parking the 50's instead of the 70's- grieve it." And all of a sudden there are no 50 seaters flying around anymore and the smallest plane flying at a regional is a 70 seater.....scary thought, no?

N43898
11-20-2014, 04:20 AM
Maybe the unions should drop thier public opposition of NAI as it seems that US managements aren't willing to negotiate even the bare minimum. Maybe more pilot demand would help. I'm half joking, but it makes you think about our value in a global market vs. US.