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stealth114
11-27-2014, 04:01 PM
Hi all the CFI's

I know this figure will vary immensely but what it the average number of landings you do with a student pilot prior to their first solo ?

Im trying to analyse what Im doing with my students that other instructors are able to get their students land safely in half the time that I take with my students !

Thanks guys and gals

stealth


r0cknry
11-27-2014, 04:29 PM
You are right, the number does very a lot. I never really paid too much attention to the number of landings a student would have, but I do remember that my (and most other CFIs at my school) students would have anywhere from 12ish to around 20 hours. The number of landings would probably be less at airports with runways long enough to do touch and goes considering you could get more TOLs in any given lesson.

I also noticed that the younger students would pick it up quicker than students in thei later years.

What helped my students was when I said something along the lines of "get the mains just a few feet above the runway and prevent them from touching for as long as possible". This is of course if you are teaching in a tricycle.

Howany landings are your students averaging?

N9373M
11-28-2014, 06:02 AM
Not a CFI, but here's a data point for "Joe Student".

70 Landings, 16.3 hours, 12 flights.
Landings per lesson:

3
6
3
2
6
2
5
6
7
7
15
4

As far as "Im trying to analyse what Im doing with my students that other instructors are able to get their students land safely in half the time that I take with my students ", I think it's all about the goals and lesson plans. It may be your fellow CFI's are concentrating on getting to solo rather than the other stuff? Looking at my log, we did a whole lot of emergency procedures, stalls, steep turns, and radio work along with the landings.


stealth114
11-28-2014, 02:17 PM
Im getting my students to solo by the 25 hr mark with an average of 30-40 landings... I dont know any other way to get all the many skills needed to solo and do it safely with knowing all the emergency procedures, comms, stalls/recovery and all the other basics.

And I will say 30-40 landings is being conservative. I myself solo'd at 39 hrs and I had done 100 landings prior to doing that solo despite the fact that it took me 5-6 days from day 1 to do my first ever landing.. It took that much more to refine it and where my CFI and I both felt totally secure and confident without a doubt.

Thanks for all the replies , guys.

You know what, screw what the others are doing. Im doing it good and even better than them ! ... based on the statistics of my own training which was fantastic, the experiences shared by other senior instructors and others here, I am doing everything just right.. I keep an open eye and ear to constantly learn as a professional but I dont need to reinvent the wheel here ! lol

bedrock
11-28-2014, 02:55 PM
Some ideas...

Find a long runway and practice touch and goes, but you set up the landing so the student just concentrates on that.

The pattern has to be very good, to get a good landing, so make sure your students are flying through the "gates" properly.

Sometimes, it helps to back track. Do the landing yourself while the student follows you on the controls.

Operate the throttle while student lands.

Make sure that as the nose comes over the numbers, the student is looking at the far end of the runwy, have them focus on something as they round out and flare.

Have them pull up the nose incrementally in the flare. You can use a grease pencil to make a line on the windshield to show the proper attitudes. Fly the airplane down a long runway in the landing attitude while your student gets the sight picture. You control the throttle, have them touch down and hold the attitude longer for it to sink in.


I once had a navy helo pilot who could fly beautifully, until roundout, then he pushed the nose down. I had 0 experience in helicopters and sought out the advice of a DE. It was a negative transfer problem; you are supposed to land a helo that way. So I just rode the controls with him, and kept my fingers behind the yoke. Everytime he pushed forward, I prevented it and reminded him not to do it. In a few hrs, he broke the habit. Don't be hesitant to ask the more experienced for help, you are doing yourself and the student a disservice, if you don't.

Pilotpip
11-30-2014, 12:44 PM
Something to consider:

It might not be what others are doing, but rather what they aren't.

When you're new, it's not all that unusual to be more conservative. It's also not unusual to get a little jaded if you've been doing it for a while. Then again, your students may have a bit more difficulty with the task, or your method may not be working for them.

One of the biggest challenges with being a CFI, and where I think you gain the most overall experience, is trying to address issues without a "one size fits all" approach. Different people are just that.

As others have said, don't get hung up on it. If your student has a concern, have them fly with someone else for a different perspective or talk to another instructor for some advice on things to do differently.

Thedude
11-30-2014, 02:25 PM
Short answer...

As many as it takes until the student is comfortable.

awax
11-30-2014, 02:29 PM
I myself solo'd at 39 hrs and I had done 100 landings prior to doing that solo despite the fact that it took me 5-6 days from day 1 to do my first ever landing.. It took that much more to refine it and where my CFI and I both felt totally secure and confident without a doubt.



You probably know that 39 hours is on the high side. Everyone is different, but of the sake if discussion, did you go through a part 61 or 141(2) school? Also, how frequently were you flying? Finally, how "cautious" was your CFI, do you think you may have inherited some that?

Years ago, I worked in a Part 141 school and had an approved "script" that I was expected to work from. We got all the required maneuvers complete and I had many students solo between 10-15 hours. These were all motivated frequent flyers in a structured environment. I'd say that well over half of them got their Private ticket between 40-50 hours.

I think the environment that you work in (142 or 61) and the support that you have available will be a huge factor on time to solo/ticket. It's not really fair to compare apples to oranges.

That said, its natural to take a deep breath and cross your fingers the first time you leave any student in a running airplane.

Yoda2
11-30-2014, 05:48 PM
Hi all the CFI's

I know this figure will vary immensely but what it the average number of landings you do with a student pilot prior to their first solo ?

Im trying to analyse what Im doing with my students that other instructors are able to get their students land safely in half the time that I take with my students !

Thanks guys and gals

stealth
What are the specific mistakes or issues your students seem to be having?

USMCFLYR
11-30-2014, 06:33 PM
I liked 73Ms way of presenting the data and got me curious about my own *Joe Pilot* numbers to add to the mix:
Not a CFI, but here's a data point for "Joe Student".

58 Landings, 11.3 hours, 11 flights.
Landings per lesson:

1
1
1
2
4
8
8
10
9
7
7



It may be your fellow CFI's are concentrating on getting to solo rather than the other stuff? Looking at my log, we did a whole lot of emergency procedures, stalls, steep turns, and radio work along with the landings.
It seems my notes indicate that I spent the first few flights concentrating on BAW and operating into and out of Class C/D airspace - not a lot of time spent on landings.
MIddle of my time spent going to a small airport outside of KTUL to concentrate on landings. Last few flights had some emergency procedures in there and hit the landings hard (purposefully finding x-wind landing opportunities).

Man that seem so long ago now.
It is really an experience flying back in that same airspace again after all of these years. One of those things that completed the circle - especially since I never expected to end up back in this area for my second career.

USMCFLYR
11-30-2014, 08:39 PM
This really got me interested so I went back and looked at what the military gave for the same numbers pre-solo. The only difference that I would denote in these numbers are the variety of training associated during those flight - to include some flight like aerobatics and AoA landings - that would be more than one would expect from PPL training obviously:

127 Landings, 30.4 hours, 17 flights.
Landings per lesson:

0
0
9
8
8
12
10
12
7
9
8
9
5
10
6
6
8
---------
4 of those rides were in the PA (Precision Aerobatics stage) and not the FAM stage - but we did do them before the solo and those were the flights where I got the most landings on any single flights (12, 10, 12, 7)

JohnBurke
11-30-2014, 09:19 PM
I dug out my original log, and found 14 flights leading to solo, 9.9 hours, and 32 landings.

1
1
1
1
1
1
2
3
3
3
2
6
3
4

My original instructor was a Delta check airman and former military aviator; primary instructing wasn't his full time job. The training was Part 61, and I was in high school at the time; training was spread over 9 months to get to solo (due to my finances, schedules, etc).

The point is that the nature of the training environment, student, circumstance, frequency of training, your own experience level as an instructor, and your background, all make a difference in the numbers.

My feeling is that a student should be soloed early, as long as the student is safe (and the requirements have been met). The basic requirements must be met, but a student who can be doing solo and training concurrently develops confidence and progresses better than a student who goes extended periods without a payoff. The solo is one of the biggest events in one's flying career, to say nothing of the early student experience, so getting the student to the point where a trip around the pattern can safely be conducted as early in the training as possible is beneficial.

N9373M
12-01-2014, 08:18 AM
nm.................

UAL T38 Phlyer
12-01-2014, 02:20 PM
Average number of landings?

Equal to the takeoffs....:cool:

Yoda2
12-01-2014, 03:02 PM
Didn't look, but probably had about a 150 landings before solo!

N9373M
12-01-2014, 03:31 PM
Average number of landings?

Equal to the takeoffs....:cool:

I don't. 1 CFII, 2 students (me). After I took-off and did my training, I swapped seats with the other student in the back - he got the landing.

JohnBurke
12-01-2014, 03:57 PM
I've had quite a few flights in which I was in the aircraft when it took off, but not when it landed.

I logged the landings, but not the takeoffs.

Bellanca
12-25-2014, 02:05 AM
I'd say 50-100 landings.

I think it depends on the airport (runway length, one piece of pavement vs multiple for crosswinds, etc, towered vs non towered), weather, how oftenthe student is flying. Also, when I was a new CFI it took me longer to know when a student was ready and I tended error on the side of caution, and presumably I teach better now lol.

Interestingly, last summer I soloed my first and only glider student in 18 flights... So only 18 Landings. And he had perfected landings a bit sooner than I felt he was safe with the tow.

N9373M
12-25-2014, 04:56 AM
Not a CFI, but here's a data point for "Joe Student".

70 Landings, 16.3 hours, 12 flights.
Landings per lesson:



Forgot to account time: in 4 months. Obviously if I had to spread the lessons out, it would have taken longer (retention, muscle memory, etc)

JamesNoBrakes
12-25-2014, 08:39 AM
I've had quite a few flights in which I was in the aircraft when it took off, but not when it landed.

I logged the landings, but not the takeoffs.

That was helpful.

JohnBurke
12-26-2014, 07:02 PM
That was helpful.

The landings were under a parachute canopy.

I believe I thoroughly answered the original question.

HercDriver130
12-26-2014, 09:11 PM
really don't know the # of landings... but I know when I did my PPL in 1978.... solo'd at 10 hours... took my PPL check ride at 43 hours.... passed...

In UPT... solo'd on flight 9 for T-37s ... and about the same for T-38s.. really not much leeway there.. .its in the syllabus... and you are either ready or you bust the ride...recollection is that there was basically a 2 hop window to be ready.... yes we did have some guys who didn't make it and never solo'd.... total class stat's..... 66 started pilot training... 28 graduated.

121pilot
12-28-2014, 03:37 AM
The biggest problem that I see with new CFI's is them trying to do touch and goes before the student has grasped ground effect.
Stop trying to get the wheels on the ground every approach. Work on getting the student to fly the low approach getting stabilized in ground effect. Once the student has a solid grasp on ground effect, the plane will land itself. Teaching this way, also instills the idea of, if something doesn't look right, go around instead of making a bad landing and potentially having a big insurance bill to worry about.

Trial and error causes headaches and a sore lower back.

try this method if not already using it, and I bet you will see a change on your students success rate.

JamesNoBrakes
12-28-2014, 08:44 AM
Trial and error causes headaches and a sore lower back.

I think within limits, a student has to use trial end error, stray towards the limits to see what happens, you have to teach them right, but if you never let them mess up they'll never experience what happens at the limits and won't understand what happens there or why it's bad. More than often I've had someone that would fail to control the plane at the limits, simply because they'd never had that experience before (taking over with a student for another instructor). This isn't a haphazard "let the student go on his own" approach, but trying to make everything fit into a perfect box can really mess someone up when they are on their own and something abnormal happens. IMO, many students, CFIs and even commercial pilots, don't really understand landings and the dynamics involved, which makes it take much longer. Cue points given are often vague or make no sense when you use critical thinking, some of the directions just don't make sense to a student that lacks the common understanding. It was always rewarding though to get a new private student landing better than a commercial or cfi student that had trained with someone else. The great thing about private students is usually whatever they do, good or bad, is a direct reflection of your instruction :)