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iahflyr
01-30-2015, 11:45 PM
What is the deal with Trans States CQFO? What minimums are they looking for?

What is the upgrade time currently at TSA?


IlliniPilot99
01-31-2015, 12:37 AM
What is the deal with Trans States CQFO? What minimums are they looking for?

What is the upgrade time currently at TSA?

feel free to read the past 25 pages on the Trans States thread...

but mins are 3500 TT and 1000 121 time. (135 time is considered case by case, crew and jet time is considered more heavily)

True upgrade depends on the fact of if you can hold upgrade and no other FO senior to you has the qualifications...

...honestly if you're asking this questions, that means you're not in the pipeline yet which means that you have missed the bubble of getting a CQFO position...

the Dec. 3rd class (which is the first class of CQFO's, including myself) just took they're checkrides in the past couple days...so time will tell on how this really works out.

GVGUY
01-31-2015, 01:16 AM
feel free to read the past 25 pages on the Trans States thread...

but mins are 3500 TT and 1000 121 time. (135 time is considered case by case, crew and jet time is considered more heavily)

True upgrade depends on the fact of if you can hold upgrade and no other FO senior to you has the qualifications...

...honestly if you're asking this questions, that means you're not in the pipeline yet which means that you have missed the bubble of getting a CQFO position...

the Dec. 3rd class (which is the first class of CQFO's, including myself) just took they're checkrides in the past couple days...so time will tell on how this really works out.
Assuming you meet the qualifications, and are in fact a CQFO any idea what the time line looks like to hold a line, or is there such a thing as a CQFO?


CBreezy
01-31-2015, 03:58 AM
Assuming you meet the qualifications, and are in fact a CQFO any idea what the time line looks like to hold a line, or is there such a thing as a CQFO?

I don't know if anyone knows what's going to happen once they get out of training. I can tell you this, with the planned number of airplanes, every CQFO will be able to hold Captain by late fall. I think that's th only thing anyone can say for sure.

HuskerAv8tor
01-31-2015, 05:10 AM
The sooner you get in the better. Even in the right seat you will make more as an FO than at your current regional.

SongMan
01-31-2015, 06:00 AM
The sooner you get in the better. Even in the right seat you will make more as an FO than at your current regional.

Please explain how the FO at TSA makes more.

Thanks

Blanco
01-31-2015, 06:15 AM
CQFOs assigned to the right seat earn a blended rate. Please see the TSA thread to answer your questions.

etflies
01-31-2015, 06:51 AM
...honestly if you're asking this questions, that means you're not in the pipeline yet which means that you have missed the bubble of getting a CQFO position...


I disagree with this, CQFO hiring is still in full swing. Those hired now may not sit in the left seat as much as the first few classes though. At least until they hold a full Captain award.

They (the hiring folks) have said the target is 200 CQFOs. I don't think there are even 100 hired overall yet. Either way for most FOs it would be more money and should be a fast upgrade.

IlliniPilot99
01-31-2015, 08:44 AM
I disagree with this, CQFO hiring is still in full swing. Those hired now may not sit in the left seat as much as the first few classes though. At least until they hold a full Captain award.

They (the hiring folks) have said the target is 200 CQFOs. I don't think there are even 100 hired overall yet. Either way for most FOs it would be more money and should be a fast upgrade.

well there is about 85 CQFO's in training (~100 total with FO's)

The COO said in his phone conference 6 weeks ago that they are looking to cap the CQFO at around 115 and then make a "right seat program". (not sure on what the entails though)

But you're right, it's anyone's guess of an upgrade timeline for us. True upgrade for us seems to be within a few months since there were only ~20 Fo's on property that are qualified to upgrade, the 5th class starts monday and we will see what the make up of it is.

SpeedTaped
01-31-2015, 09:15 AM
From looking into the previous posts I came up with:

December 3rd 9 CQFO'S, 3 FO's

December 16th 13 CQFO's, 3 FO's

January 5th 20 CQFO’s, 5 FO’s

January 14th 15 CQFO’s, 3 FO’s

The numbers I am coming up with are around 57 CQFO's and 14 FO's since December 3rd. Are these numbers accurate?

Thanks,

Speed

beau172
01-31-2015, 09:32 AM
Whats the upgrade time for a 2000HR (no turbine) CFI starting in April?

v1valarob
01-31-2015, 09:33 AM
I think a more updated number is closer to 200 for CQFOs, at least thats what Ive been told.

IlliniPilot99
01-31-2015, 09:45 AM
Whats the upgrade time for a 2000HR (no turbine) CFI starting in April?

you would need 3000 hrs...

normal time is 3500 TT and 1000 121 but they will got 2/1 with company time meaning you can go to 3000 TT...

so depending how much you fly...~750 hrs per year...you can upgrade in about 1.5 years if there is a slot.

beau172
01-31-2015, 09:51 AM
Also, do you know how long the new flying is good for? Sorry for playing 20 questions.

IlliniPilot99
01-31-2015, 09:52 AM
Also, do you know how long the new flying is good for? Sorry for playing 20 questions.

4 or 5 years...can't remember

FlyingKat
01-31-2015, 10:18 AM
End state will be around 200 CQFOs. But I think they are going to need to pause it for a bit to get more regular FOs to allow for FOs on property to upgrade. So I wouldn't be surprised to see a pause in CQFO for a bit and then a resumption of large numbers of CQFOs till we get to the 200 mark.

Pilottim79
01-31-2015, 12:07 PM
Trust me when I say that almost NO ONE has missed the wave at TSA. I recently ate dinner next to PSA recruiters who said they pretty much already have all the pilots they need. They want something like 1200 pilots and only need like just over 100 more.

That is just what THEY told me, dunno if it is true.

CLT Guy
01-31-2015, 12:21 PM
I recently ate dinner next to PSA recruiters who said they pretty much already have all the pilots they need. They want something like 1200 pilots and only need like just over 100 more.

That is just what THEY told me, dunno if it is true.

This is the TSA thread and I don't want to get off topic, but I do want to respond to the comment about PSA.

I can not imagine any PSA recruited saying that. If so, please tell us who they were and where you heard this. The CEO announced a couple days ago that they plan to hire 750 additional pilots this year, and the recruiters have been saying that for months now. PSA currently has about 1000 on the seniority list, of which about 800 are active pilots. At a minimum, we need 1200 active pilots. With attrition, PSA will be hiring 30 per class, 2 classes per month, for another year and a half at the minimum. After that, expect at least 30 a month being hired to cover attrition alone. When AA and US are on the same operating certificate, the flow/ssp will go up to 100 or more guaranteed job offers at mainline per year. That, coupled with the guys going to the majors outside of the flow, will keep movement going at PSA even if we do not get the additional aircraft that are slated as "options".

The average experience a new hire at PSA has is about 3000 hours 121 jet time. (Take the total 121jet time per class and divide by the number of people in the class). It is not uncommon for new hire classes to be 50% prior 121 guys from other regionals with 5000-8000 hours in the CRJ. There seem to always be one or two with over 12,000 hours. Just as many new hires are going to the majors and lcc's as are senior captain. Some guys, especially ex-military, are getting hired and moving to the lcc's and large 121 cargo companies before they leave ground school.

People hired today can still expect to upgrade in about 2 years.

SpeedTaped
01-31-2015, 12:42 PM
No FLOW at PSA. Just an interview and a pay cap.

IlliniPilot99
01-31-2015, 12:46 PM
Trust me when I say that almost NO ONE has missed the wave at TSA. I recently ate dinner next to PSA recruiters who said they pretty much already have all the pilots they need. They want something like 1200 pilots and only need like just over 100 more.

That is just what THEY told me, dunno if it is true.

I guess I should clarify...

I should have eluded to the fact that I was referring to an upgrade by summer...even the next class will upgrade by the end of the year.

Also in regards to the CQFO, that after Mondays class, you will spend the majority of your time in the right seat until upgrade.

sorry for the confusion

CLT Guy
01-31-2015, 03:29 PM
No FLOW at PSA. Just an interview and a pay cap.

It is minimum jobs offered per month, not guaranteed interviews. They have to make offers.

The pay cap is inconsequential. If you are a FO past 4 years, or a CA past 12 years, you have done something seriously wrong. With 10% of the pilot group guaranteed a job at mainline each year, you should be gone in less than 10 years wether or not you wait for the ssp. Regionals are not designed for lifers, and the cap's ensure that you do not stay too long.

SpeedTaped
01-31-2015, 04:02 PM
It is minimum jobs offered per month, not guaranteed interviews. They have to make offers.

The pay cap is inconsequential. If you are a FO past 4 years, or a CA past 12 years, you have done something seriously wrong. With 10% of the pilot group guaranteed a job at mainline each year, you should be gone in less than 10 years wether or not you wait for the ssp. Regionals are not designed for lifers, and the cap's ensure that you do not stay too long.

That's what I said it's not a flow, it's an interview and a pay cap.

Coneydog
01-31-2015, 04:49 PM
It is minimum jobs offered per month, not guaranteed interviews. They have to make offers.

The pay cap is inconsequential. If you are a FO past 4 years, or a CA past 12 years, you have done something seriously wrong. With 10% of the pilot group guaranteed a job at mainline each year, you should be gone in less than 10 years wether or not you wait for the ssp. Regionals are not designed for lifers, and the cap's ensure that you do not stay too long.

This maybe one of the worst posts I've read on here.

CLT Guy
01-31-2015, 04:59 PM
This maybe one of the worst posts I've read on here.

It is an ugly truth, and it hurts. I understand that. It may be unfortunate, but it is the truth. Regionals are an entry level job, and thats it. Many people get lazy and never move on, and that is part of the problem with the regionals.

PeezDog
01-31-2015, 05:06 PM
It is an ugly truth, and it hurts. I understand that. It may be unfortunate, but it is the truth. Regionals are an entry level job, and thats it. Many people get lazy and never move on, and that is part of the problem with the regionals.

Have you been in the same industry as the rest of us have for the past decade?

Bigpimppilot
01-31-2015, 05:47 PM
Wow I didn't realize half the pilots at eagle were doing something wrong. Heck I'm a 7 yr FO there. Looks like I have 3 yrs to get out or something is wrong with me too. Glad I have 100% control over it. I'll put out my apps again.

CLT Guy
01-31-2015, 06:01 PM
Wow I didn't realize half the pilots at eagle were doing something wrong. Heck I'm a 7 yr FO there. Looks like I have 3 yrs to get out or something is wrong with me too. Glad I have 100% control over it. I'll put out my apps again.

What I actually said that anyone that gets hired today and is still in a regional in 10 years is doing something wrong. But, since you called me out, here is some more sticking points...

How many people that were hired the same month and year as you are now captains or with a major? By picking an airline, it is a gamble. Some people win, others lose. The ones that lose did something wrong. They made the wrong choice. If you are happy and wanted to be a 7 year FO, then it was a good choice for you, so this does not apply.

Others lose by not having a college degree, not networking and having lots of internal rep's, not joining the military (Air National Guard), not going to several job fairs, not maintaining a current application at the majors, not volunteering, or by not doing anything else to stand out from the herd.

Opportunities are available, you just have to go and get them. This CQFO is an example of people making a move to benefit them and their career. Dozens (probable 100 by now) Endeavor guys with 7+ years of seniority have made the jump to PSA and many of them are Captains now.

If you are hired today and do not want to be a 7 year FO, but find yourself stuck in that position, you did something wrong. Do you agree with that?

Coneydog
01-31-2015, 06:05 PM
It is an ugly truth, and it hurts. I understand that. It may be unfortunate, but it is the truth. Regionals are an entry level job, and thats it. Many people get lazy and never move on, and that is part of the problem with the regionals.

I'm just gonna let all the guys that have been in the industry for the past 5-10 years reply to your moronic post.

CLT Guy
01-31-2015, 06:14 PM
I'm just gonna let all the guys that have been in the industry for the past 5-10 years reply to your moronic post.

I will gladly listen to any rational arguments.

My argument are:

Anyone that enters the industry today should be able to upgrade and then move on to a better job in under 12 years.

Anyone that has been stuck in the right seat for the past 7-10 years with no upgrade in sight, and has not done anything since to move to become a captain has not done everything that they can to further their career. (Not moved to another company with faster upgrades, not moved to become a CQFO)


Lastly, if you have not:
- Obtained a college degree
- Volunteered consistently
- Gone to at least 2 job fairs a year
- Kept your application updated at least once a quarter
- Moved to the training department for at least a few months
- Gotten at least 4 internal rec's/letters of recommendation from every major that they are applying to

then you have not done everything that you can to move up.

Bigpimppilot
01-31-2015, 06:20 PM
I don't know clt guy but he sounds like a flight instructor or someone that went straight from the military to a major and wonders why everyone else is too stupid to have done the same. Whatever dude. Congrats if you made it to the top. If your an Fo at a regional.... Well...... Good luck buddy because with your attitude you'll need some.

Bellanca
01-31-2015, 08:44 PM
Anyone that enters the industry today should be able to upgrade and then move on to a better job in under 12 years.


This sounds familiar. Almost sounds like something people would say to new hires back in 2007... and a lot of those people are still FOs.

But, you are absolutely right... Unless there's another market collapse, 9/11, recession, opec cutting oil production to bring oil up to $150/barrel, age 67 (or god knows age 70 or some bs), or some other unforeseen man-made or natural disaster that causes stagnation or collapse of the aviation industry, then everyone will be widebody pilots in 12 years.

Paid2fly
01-31-2015, 09:23 PM
It is an ugly truth, and it hurts. I understand that. It may be unfortunate, but it is the truth. Regionals are an entry level job, and thats it. Many people get lazy and never move on, and that is part of the problem with the regionals.








Uh, NO. The problem with regionals are the guys(such as yourself)that take concessions, rather than making gains(during a time when the entire industry is making record profits)!

Hawaiiavi8er
01-31-2015, 10:34 PM
So I'm just curious. What if you're at a regional making 6 figures, live at base, you have any schedule you bid, and are most of all happy? Apparently you're part of the "regional problem" and should be flying a wide body?

PBSG
02-01-2015, 05:47 AM
It is an ugly truth, and it hurts. I understand that. It may be unfortunate, but it is the truth. Regionals are an entry level job, and thats it. Many people get lazy and never move on, and that is part of the problem with the regionals.

You haven't been in this industry too long, have you?

PilotCrusader
02-01-2015, 07:15 AM
You haven't been in this industry too long, have you?

He is just another PSA know it all. Probably been flying less than 5 years total.

And yeah, I am that guy. I had a few opportunities to move on, but they were riddled with uncertainty and much less pay initially. Recently, I could have flowed to AA. With less than 5 years remaining before retirement, I saw no point. I make around $120-130 any given year without breaking a sweat, have 5 weeks of vacation, get 17-18 days off per month, never work weekends or holidays. Why would I give that up? I wouldn't even break even at AA until year 4!

Beware the carrot that says you will be moving up to a mainline carrier quickly. It was promised to my cohort and not just 9/11, but bankruptcies, purchases(TWA - Reno Air - etc), whipsaws, gas prices, and a few more, all caused my career to stagnate and me to be pretty much stuck here. I'm not mad about it. Life is fine for me. I just laugh when I hear all of you talk about your career advancement opportunities like it is a certain thing. It isn't at all and airline management would like nothing more than to keep you all down here flying bigger planes for less. If they can find a way, or a way finds them, rest assured they will act against your best interests every time. Even you PSA guys, that are getting the reach around right now: the love affair will be over sooner or later.

PilotCrusader
02-01-2015, 07:28 AM
From looking into the previous posts I came up with:

December 3rd 9 CQFO'S, 3 FO's

December 16th 13 CQFO's, 3 FO's

January 5th 20 CQFO’s, 5 FO’s

January 14th 15 CQFO’s, 3 FO’s

The numbers I am coming up with are around 57 CQFO's and 14 FO's since December 3rd. Are these numbers accurate?

Thanks,

Speed
These numbers make it painfully obvious what is actually going to happen to a "CQFO". You are not getting the plain old FOs needed to ensure CQFOs actually get ahead. For those bad at math, you seem to be attracting some CQFOs for sure, but the average 1500 hr guy out there won't come near you guys. Who would? Why come fly hand me down 50 seaters with a short shelf life, when one can go to virtually any other regional out there and do better?

AZ wildcat
02-01-2015, 08:12 AM
These numbers make it painfully obvious what is actually going to happen to a "CQFO". You are not getting the plain old FOs needed to ensure CQFOs actually get ahead. For those bad at math, you seem to be attracting some CQFOs for sure, but the average 1500 hr guy out there won't come near you guys. Who would? Why come fly hand me down 50 seaters with a short shelf life, when one can go to virtually any other regional out there and do better?


For an upgrade in 1500 hours max???

RgrMurdock
02-01-2015, 08:17 AM
These numbers make it painfully obvious what is actually going to happen to a "CQFO". You are not getting the plain old FOs needed to ensure CQFOs actually get ahead. For those bad at math, you seem to be attracting some CQFOs for sure, but the average 1500 hr guy out there won't come near you guys. Who would? Why come fly hand me down 50 seaters with a short shelf life, when one can go to virtually any other regional out there and do better?

Funny. We don't have the newest shiny under the wing 175's. We do have the most growth as a percentage of flying and a contract that's better than most. But why would anyone want to go to an airline with those things?

PilotCrusader
02-01-2015, 08:18 AM
For an upgrade in 1500 hours max???

Says who? You? Put it in writing. All of that is only IF you can actually attract regular FOs, which you so far have not been able to do in any certain numbers. TSA management knew this from the start. Why do you think they came out of the gate with a "CQFO" program? The whole thing will fail if you don't get normal FOs though. How could TSA actually survive if they were paying the majority of their FOs substantially more than Envoy, the company they are supposed to be undercutting?

PilotCrusader
02-01-2015, 08:20 AM
Funny. We don't have the newest shiny under the wing 175's. We do have the most growth as a percentage of flying and a contract that's better than most. But why would anyone want to go to an airline with those things?

Growth in terms of FOs? Actual FOs, not CQFOs, praying you find enough regular FOs for this sham to work. Haha. Yeah. Good luck with that.

CBreezy
02-01-2015, 08:24 AM
These numbers make it painfully obvious what is actually going to happen to a "CQFO". You are not getting the plain old FOs needed to ensure CQFOs actually get ahead. For those bad at math, you seem to be attracting some CQFOs for sure, but the average 1500 hr guy out there won't come near you guys. Who would? Why come fly hand me down 50 seaters with a short shelf life, when one can go to virtually any other regional out there and do better?

Oooo!! I want to play. Okay, here goes: Envoy will cease to exist in 8 months. See? I can make unfounded conclusions based on a qualitative "analysis" of an incomplete data set and completely ignore any kind of context.

Listen old man, I know when you went to college, they didn't use calculating machines, but that doesn't give you an excuse to make outlandish statements.

Those numbers tell no story at all. In the 6 months prior to the growth announcement, TSA managed to hire over 60 FOs. While not a lot of pilots at a place like ExpressJet, this resulted in a nearly 20 growth in the pilot group; all this without any promise of growth and an upgrade that had been hovering around 1-2 years. Isn't it possible that the lack of FOs in classes is because recruiting is focusing on CQFOs? No, that couldn't be it. The company will need 100 more Captains, in less than a year, than there are pilots on the current seniority list. It also couldn't be because, as of the announcement, TSA was very overstaffed on FOs. Nope, that couldn't be it either. Confirmation bias is a strong thing. Most ignorant people are unaware of its affects on opinions.

PilotCrusader
02-01-2015, 08:35 AM
Oooo!! I want to play. Okay, here goes: Envoy will cease to exist in 8 months. See? I can make unfounded conclusions based on a qualitative "analysis" of an incomplete data set and completely ignore any kind of context.

Listen old man, I know when you went to college, they didn't use calculating machines, but that doesn't give you an excuse to make outlandish statements.

Those numbers tell no story at all. In the 6 months prior to the growth announcement, TSA managed to hire over 60 FOs. While not a lot of pilots at a place like ExpressJet, this resulted in a nearly 20 growth in the pilot group; all this without any promise of growth and an upgrade that had been hovering around 1-2 years. Isn't it possible that the lack of FOs in classes is because recruiting is focusing on CQFOs? No, that couldn't be it. The company will need 100 more Captains, in less than a year, than there are pilots on the current seniority list. It also couldn't be because, as of the announcement, TSA was very overstaffed on FOs. Nope, that couldn't be it either. Confirmation bias is a strong thing. Most ignorant people are unaware of its affects on opinions.
Actually that is true: I learned weight and balance with a slide rule. Learned to navigate without a magenta line present in the aircraft, and how to calculate a precise descent without the use of an FMS; the old man could out fly one of you self entitled spoiled rotten kiddos any day:)

As far as the rest of your statement, perhaps 5 classes is not enough of a "data set", I could agree with that. I most likely have inserted a little "old man" 20+ years experience watching this stuff as well.

So, how about a bet? I'll bet $1000 that this little experiment fails for most.

AZ wildcat
02-01-2015, 08:37 AM
Says who? You? Put it in writing. All of that is only IF you can actually attract regular FOs, which you so far have not been able to do in any certain numbers. TSA management knew this from the start. Why do you think they came out of the gate with a "CQFO" program? The whole thing will fail if you don't get normal FOs though. How could TSA actually survive if they were paying the majority of their FOs substantially more than Envoy, the company they are supposed to be undercutting?


Does any airline on earth put your upgrade time in writing? Since we all know the answer to that, let's not waste any time on it.

Bottom line: Its MY opinion that any pilot entering the regionals with the intention to move on to a major, they'd be doing themselves a disservice not to go to an airline that is almost tripling in size in the next 12 months.

PilotCrusader
02-01-2015, 08:42 AM
Does any airline on earth put your upgrade time in writing? Since we all know the answer to that, let's not waste any time on it.

Bottom line: Its MY opinion that any pilot entering the regionals with the intention to move on to a major, they'd be doing themselves a disservice not to go to an airline that is almost tripling in size in the next 12 months.

You stated it as if it was fact. Your opinion ok great. It is my opinion that you will not grow enough or fast enough for this to actually work. It is also my opinion that it is obvious that your management knew this by the fact they created the CQFO program right out of the gate. I can also smell the desperation from many TSA guys currently in property who post here regularly; they know the deal. Time will tell who is right.

Blanco
02-01-2015, 08:49 AM
The CQFO 'program' is not a 'program'. The language has been in the contract for years. The company is just now able to put it to use. It is working, will continue to work and TSA will prosper.

You need to build a bridge and get over it!

Coneydog
02-01-2015, 09:20 AM
Actually that is true: I learned weight and balance with a slide rule. Learned to navigate without a magenta line present in the aircraft, and how to calculate a precise descent without the use of an FMS; the old man could out fly one of you self entitled spoiled rotten kiddos any day:)

As far as the rest of your statement, perhaps 5 classes is not enough of a "data set", I could agree with that. I most likely have inserted a little "old man" 20+ years experience watching this stuff as well.

So, how about a bet? I'll bet $1000 that this little experiment fails for most.

No concessions were made. The pilot group had nothing to do with this. And now your willing to bet your own money that we fail? Willfully hoping we fail and more jobs will be lost? That's deplorable. Obviously your a bitter Express jet lifer.

TalkTurkey
02-01-2015, 09:35 AM
No concessions were made. The pilot group had nothing to do with this. And now your willing to bet your own money that we fail? Willfully hoping we fail and more jobs will be lost? That's deplorable. Obviously your a bitter Express jet lifer.

Besides, who effing makes bets under a pseudonym whom can simply turn into a welcher when he loses.

ILOVELAMP
02-01-2015, 09:48 AM
For those doubters, even myself. They already gave me a 4 stripe thing your supposed to wear. Then we are PIC typed left Seat, go to Captain IOE, then do our Fed ride and then at some point we do our right Seat qual. If I'm a betting man it sounds like they are hiring captains. Just my.02!

PilotCrusader
02-01-2015, 09:50 AM
No concessions were made. The pilot group had nothing to do with this. And now your willing to bet your own money that we fail? Willfully hoping we fail and more jobs will be lost? That's deplorable. Obviously your a bitter Express jet lifer.

Eagle lifer and not bitter at all - My name says it all - I just don't want to see new guys duped.

You are right: you didn't take concessions or anything but obviously a CQFO program is designed to pilfer from other regionals so don't act all high and mighty about what it is your pilot group is playing along with.

I don't hope you fail, I'm betting you fail. Whether you do or not does not affect in me even a miniscule way.

Coneydog
02-01-2015, 10:04 AM
Eagle lifer and not bitter at all - My name says it all - I just don't want to see new guys duped.

You are right: you didn't take concessions or anything but obviously a CQFO program is designed to pilfer from other regionals so don't act all high and mighty about what it is your pilot group is playing along with.

I don't hope you fail, I'm betting you fail. Whether you do or not does not affect in even a miniscule way.

How are new guys being duped? By offering them an opportunity to make more money and pad their resume (in an effort to get hired with a major) ? American Airlines played you guys. I am truly sorry for that. We did not vote in a concessionary contract. United took those planes from Xpress Jet...not us. Is it Trans States fault that they can fly for a profit while maintaining a happy pilot group with a better than average contract? Again, no concessions. Upgrade times are quick. Pilots are happy here. Most people are coming here to have an opportunity they otherwise wouldn't have had at their previous airline. This is what your mad about? What is it that you are 'crusading' for? You sound like a clown

PilotCrusader
02-01-2015, 11:13 AM
How are new guys being duped? By offering them an opportunity to make more money and pad their resume (in an effort to get hired with a major) ? American Airlines played you guys. I am truly sorry for that. We did not vote in a concessionary contract. United took those planes from Xpress Jet...not us. Is it Trans States fault that they can fly for a profit while maintaining a happy pilot group with a better than average contract? Again, no concessions. Upgrade times are quick. Pilots are happy here. Most people are coming here to have an opportunity they otherwise wouldn't have had at their previous airline. This is what your mad about? What is it that you are 'crusading' for? You sound like a clown

I've said it several times: I'm bit mad about anything. You are making statements about fast upgrades that you "believe" are going to continue. The simple truth is that they may continue IF you get enough FOs to fill your coffers. Your jet contracts are relatively short and your future after that very uncertain. YOU may be finally happy but I believe the "dupe" is on a new hire FO. Just my belief. In 20+ years, I've seen it too many times.

Pilottim79
02-01-2015, 07:28 PM
I've said it several times: I'm bit mad about anything. You are making statements about fast upgrades that you "believe" are going to continue. The simple truth is that they may continue IF you get enough FOs to fill your coffers. Your jet contracts are relatively short and your future after that very uncertain. YOU may be finally happy but I believe the "dupe" is on a new hire FO. Just my belief. In 20+ years, I've seen it too many times.

Uncertain future? The contracts are 5 years. Is TSA future more uncertain than Envoy, XJT, Endeavor, Mesa, Go Jet, Silver, Commute Air? I would say TSA has a more secure future than any of those.

PilotCrusader
02-01-2015, 07:44 PM
Uncertain future? The contracts are 5 years. Is TSA future more uncertain than Envoy, XJT, Endeavor, Mesa, Go Jet, Silver, Commute Air? I would say TSA has a more secure future than any of those.

You would say TSA, with a 5 year contract for jets slated for retirement in 5 years, is more secure than say, Envoy, who is receiving brand new 76 seat jets and has a solid 10 year contract to back it? Ohhhhhhkayyyy. I am flying those old 145s you guys are about to get. I'd be amazed if they all last 5 years; They are falling apart just like the ATRs before we dumped them.

Or Endeavor, receiving 81 76 seat jets and paying out $80k extra to each FO over the next 4 years.

Or EVEN Mesa, who is also receiving a total fleet replacement.

Haha. Your stock went wayyy down with that prediction kiddo.

MavAv8r
02-02-2015, 03:06 AM
Says who? You? Put it in writing. All of that is only IF you can actually attract regular FOs, which you so far have not been able to do in any certain numbers. TSA management knew this from the start. Why do you think they came out of the gate with a "CQFO" program? The whole thing will fail if you don't get normal FOs though. How could TSA actually survive if they were paying the majority of their FOs substantially more than Envoy, the company they are supposed to be undercutting?

The company doesn't blindly accept, and/or bid on something they know that they won't be able to staff. Great business model, and if you haven't paid attention to the industry in the last 10-15 years, TSA won't do something they can't make money. Gaining flying, and then losing it all, due to staffing, makes it tough to make money.

Oooo!! I want to play. Okay, here goes: Envoy will cease to exist in 8 months. See? I can make unfounded conclusions based on a qualitative "analysis" of an incomplete data set and completely ignore any kind of context.

Listen old man, I know when you went to college, they didn't use calculating machines, but that doesn't give you an excuse to make outlandish statements.

Those numbers tell no story at all. In the 6 months prior to the growth announcement, TSA managed to hire over 60 FOs. While not a lot of pilots at a place like ExpressJet, this resulted in a nearly 20 growth in the pilot group; all this without any promise of growth and an upgrade that had been hovering around 1-2 years. Isn't it possible that the lack of FOs in classes is because recruiting is focusing on CQFOs? No, that couldn't be it. The company will need 100 more Captains, in less than a year, than there are pilots on the current seniority list. It also couldn't be because, as of the announcement, TSA was very overstaffed on FOs. Nope, that couldn't be it either. Confirmation bias is a strong thing. Most ignorant people are unaware of its affects on opinions.

^This. They have simply altered their recruiting tactics for now. The primary focus is getting Captains on property for the initial growth spurt, because we will already have FO's to handle the initial growth. If we get short on FO's they can use the CQFO's to handle it. It's simply being smart with their hiring. Like Breezy said, the company hired 10 ish a month for over a year with no promise of growth, no upgrades, and no attrition. Now you are saying that since we are tripling in size to stay away? Go take your meds old man.

Actually that is true: I learned weight and balance with a slide rule. Learned to navigate without a magenta line present in the aircraft, and how to calculate a precise descent without the use of an FMS; the old man could out fly one of you self entitled spoiled rotten kiddos any day:)

As far as the rest of your statement, perhaps 5 classes is not enough of a "data set", I could agree with that. I most likely have inserted a little "old man" 20+ years experience watching this stuff as well.

So, how about a bet? I'll bet $1000 that this little experiment fails for most.

Bring.It.On... I've flown with enough old codgers like yourself that still think they are Chuck Yeager, and just getting it on the ground is a tough task.

You would say TSA, with a 5 year contract for jets slated for retirement in 5 years, is more secure than say, Envoy, who is receiving brand new 76 seat jets and has a solid 10 year contract to back it? Ohhhhhhkayyyy. I am flying those old 145s you guys are about to get. I'd be amazed if they all last 5 years; They are falling apart just like the ATRs before we dumped them.

Or Endeavor, receiving 81 76 seat jets and paying out $80k extra to each FO over the next 4 years.

Or EVEN Mesa, who is also receiving a total fleet replacement.

Haha. Your stock went wayyy down with that prediction kiddo.

You call that a solid 10 year contract? You do realize it is an absolute sh!t sandwich, and worse than the contract TSA pilots currently work under right? You do realize Endeavor has to stay around to get that bonus right? As for Mesa… you've missed the fast upgrade. So go there and upgrade in 2-2.5 years while your buddy came here and upgrades the day he hits 3000 TT. Don't forget that if we get short, we can and WE WILL drop the TT requirements if that is what is required to staff it. In which case you upgrade in 1-1.5 years tops.

The fact that people continue to rip on this place absolutely blows my mind. Why are we such a bad place to work? Why is it so bad that this pilot group has a good relationship with management and enjoys working here? Why is it so bad that we are growing? Why do we get the ridicule for "undercutting" yet Compass gets the free pass? You do realize that they have 20 of "your" birds because they were able to do it cheaper than you!! Yet, I don't see you on the Compass forum spewing the same sh!t you do over here. Is it because they are practically mainline pilots with those new engine under wing shiny jets!?!?

Move along.

20sx
02-02-2015, 03:55 AM
Any time any regional gets more jets, someone is going to rip on them for it. Without fail.

PilotCrusader
02-02-2015, 04:31 AM
The company doesn't blindly accept, and/or bid on something they know that they won't be able to staff. Great business model, and if you haven't paid attention to the industry in the last 10-15 years, TSA won't do something they can't make money. Gaining flying, and then losing it all, due to staffing, makes it tough to make money.



^This. They have simply altered their recruiting tactics for now. The primary focus is getting Captains on property for the initial growth spurt, because we will already have FO's to handle the initial growth. If we get short on FO's they can use the CQFO's to handle it. It's simply being smart with their hiring. Like Breezy said, the company hired 10 ish a month for over a year with no promise of growth, no upgrades, and no attrition. Now you are saying that since we are tripling in size to stay away? Go take your meds old man.



Bring.It.On... I've flown with enough old codgers like yourself that still think they are Chuck Yeager, and just getting it on the ground is a tough task.



You call that a solid 10 year contract? You do realize it is an absolute sh!t sandwich, and worse than the contract TSA pilots currently work under right? You do realize Endeavor has to stay around to get that bonus right? As for Mesa… you've missed the fast upgrade. So go there and upgrade in 2-2.5 years while your buddy came here and upgrades the day he hits 3000 TT. Don't forget that if we get short, we can and WE WILL drop the TT requirements if that is what is required to staff it. In which case you upgrade in 1-1.5 years tops.

The fact that people continue to rip on this place absolutely blows my mind. Why are we such a bad place to work? Why is it so bad that this pilot group has a good relationship with management and enjoys working here? Why is it so bad that we are growing? Why do we get the ridicule for "undercutting" yet Compass gets the free pass? You do realize that they have 20 of "your" birds because they were able to do it cheaper than you!! Yet, I don't see you on the Compass forum spewing the same sh!t you do over here. Is it because they are practically mainline pilots with those new engine under wing shiny jets!?!?

Move along.
Ooooh another angry TSA kiddo!! I've outed you guys too much?

I agree TSA wouldn't do this if they didn't think they could. Seeing as you speak of historics - how has TSA "historically" treated their pilots? Like crap? Hired in the spring furloughed in the fall over and over? The CQFO program is how they will staff but it will require CQFOs that don't actually make it to the left seat(my opinion). You even basically said this yourself above!

(Insert baseless assumptive potshot here about how this old codger has "saved" plenty of young bucks like you that think they can fly)

Envoy has a 10 year contract with brand new aircraft and an automatic flow to AA. You have a 5 year contract and are receiving old airplanes that only have 5 years of useful life left out of them. You are saying your contract is better?

Compass, like you has not taken any contract alterations to receive these aircraft. However, Compass has not put a program in place that is designed to pilfer pilots from fellow regionals. If they get 121 pilots, great, but they are not trying to directly suck them away with a "CQFO" program.

All that being said, I don't really have anything against you guys and I am not upset at anything; it doesn't affect me personally in any way shape or form. Simply put, it is my opinion that this experiment will fail. You are only being given these airplanes because Envoy cannot staff them. If you pull it off great, but my advice to the average 1500 CFI is that there are much better bets out there right now.

Pilottim79
02-02-2015, 09:19 AM
You would say TSA, with a 5 year contract for jets slated for retirement in 5 years, is more secure than say, Envoy, who is receiving brand new 76 seat jets and has a solid 10 year contract to back it? Ohhhhhhkayyyy. I am flying those old 145s you guys are about to get. I'd be amazed if they all last 5 years; They are falling apart just like the ATRs before we dumped them.

Or Endeavor, receiving 81 76 seat jets and paying out $80k extra to each FO over the next 4 years.

Or EVEN Mesa, who is also receiving a total fleet replacement.

Haha. Your stock went wayyy down with that prediction kiddo.

You are such a troll. If you think the XRs are getting mothballed in 5 years you are nuts. Just cause a contract expires in no way equals a plane going away.

And yes, I would rather be at TSA than any of those you mentioned. It doesn't matter what airplanes you have if you have the worst contract and can't staff them, Mesa (see Republic). If you honestly think the new hire FOs will see that 80K you are a perfect Envoy employee. You think they will probably get flow through too!! haha.

PilotCrusader
02-02-2015, 09:54 AM
The company doesn't blindly accept, and/or bid on something they know that they won't be able to staff. Great business model, and if you haven't paid attention to the industry in the last 10-15 years, TSA won't do something they can't make money. Gaining flying, and then losing it all, due to staffing, makes it tough to make money.



^This. They have simply altered their recruiting tactics for now. The primary focus is getting Captains on property for the initial growth spurt, because we will already have FO's to handle the initial growth. If we get short on FO's they can use the CQFO's to handle it. It's simply being smart with their hiring. Like Breezy said, the company hired 10 ish a month for over a year with no promise of growth, no upgrades, and no attrition. Now you are saying that since we are tripling in size to stay away? Go take your meds old man.



Bring.It.On... I've flown with enough old codgers like yourself that still think they are Chuck Yeager, and just getting it on the ground is a tough task.



You call that a solid 10 year contract? You do realize it is an absolute sh!t sandwich, and worse than the contract TSA pilots currently work under right? You do realize Endeavor has to stay around to get that bonus right? As for Mesa… you've missed the fast upgrade. So go there and upgrade in 2-2.5 years while your buddy came here and upgrades the day he hits 3000 TT. Don't forget that if we get short, we can and WE WILL drop the TT requirements if that is what is required to staff it. In which case you upgrade in 1-1.5 years tops.

The fact that people continue to rip on this place absolutely blows my mind. Why are we such a bad place to work? Why is it so bad that this pilot group has a good relationship with management and enjoys working here? Why is it so bad that we are growing? Why do we get the ridicule for "undercutting" yet Compass gets the free pass? You do realize that they have 20 of "your" birds because they were able to do it cheaper than you!! Yet, I don't see you on the Compass forum spewing the same sh!t you do over here. Is it because they are practically mainline pilots with those new engine under wing shiny jets!?!?

Move along.

You are such a troll. If you think the XRs are getting mothballed in 5 years you are nuts. Just cause a contract expires in no way equals a plane going away.

And yes, I would rather be at TSA than any of those you mentioned. It doesn't matter what airplanes you have if you have the worst contract and can't staff them, Mesa (see Republic). If you honestly think the new hire FOs will see that 80K you are a perfect Envoy employee. You think they will probably get flow through too!! haha.
I was speaking of the 15 145s from Envoy. They retire in 2020, if you can keep them running that long. Judging your laughable maintenance on the 10 you were forced to give back to us a few years ago, I highly doubt you will keep them even that long.

The rest of your sputter is just illogical drivel from a kid.

FlyingKat
02-02-2015, 10:12 AM
I've said it several times: I'm bit mad about anything. You are making statements about fast upgrades that you "believe" are going to continue. The simple truth is that they may continue IF you get enough FOs to fill your coffers. Your jet contracts are relatively short and your future after that very uncertain. YOU may be finally happy but I believe the "dupe" is on a new hire FO. Just my belief. In 20+ years, I've seen it too many times.

Well if you have really been around for 20 years, then you know anything more than 5 years out in this industry is a crapshoot which is why I get such a laugh at you bragging about your long term contracts. As soon as AA finds somebody cheaper they will find a way to get around it. So quit wasting your time on TSA we'll be just fine.

PilotCrusader
02-02-2015, 10:37 AM
Well if you have really been around for 20 years, then you know anything more than 5 years out in this industry is a crapshoot which is why I get such a laugh at you bragging about your long term contracts. As soon as AA finds somebody cheaper they will find a way to get around it. So quit wasting your time on TSA we'll be just fine.

As long as you can sucker enough poor CFIs into being your right seater. Sad!

As far as your business statements, you'll need to return to college. See kiddo, 76 seat jets make money even when oil is above $80 barrel. Why would AA want to find someone to do it cheaper? It doesn't really matter if that just means more profit. Dougie P said very clearly at a company town hall that keeping flying with a wholly owned makes the company much more money, as long as the costs are somewhat aligned.

Don't act like you got anytbing more than Xjet and Envoy leftovers. And for gods sake, and your souls sake, stop trying to dupe poor unsuspecting cfis!!

Luv2Rotate
02-02-2015, 11:08 AM
What IF, Hulas decided to start another airline with lesser pay/benefits to undercut you all with 145's??? I would NEVER trust a Hula ran organization.

Timma
02-02-2015, 11:37 AM
As long as you can sucker enough poor CFIs into being your right seater. Sad!

As far as your business statements, you'll need to return to college. See kiddo, 76 seat jets make money even when oil is above $80 barrel. Why would AA want to find someone to do it cheaper? It doesn't really matter if that just means more profit. Dougie P said very clearly at a company town hall that keeping flying with a wholly owned makes the company much more money, as long as the costs are somewhat aligned.

Don't act like you got anytbing more than Xjet and Envoy leftovers. And for gods sake, and your souls sake, stop trying to dupe poor unsuspecting cfis!!

Shut up and go somewhere else..

ILOVELAMP
02-02-2015, 12:21 PM
As long as you can sucker enough poor CFIs into being your right seater. Sad!

As far as your business statements, you'll need to return to college. See kiddo, 76 seat jets make money even when oil is above $80 barrel. Why would AA want to find someone to do it cheaper? It doesn't really matter if that just means more profit. Dougie P said very clearly at a company town hall that keeping flying with a wholly owned makes the company much more money, as long as the costs are somewhat aligned.

Don't act like you got anytbing more than Xjet and Envoy leftovers. And for gods sake, and your souls sake, stop trying to dupe poor unsuspecting cfis!!


The Butt hurt is super strong with this one! I recommend apply preperation H hourly. When the super old seniors cost too much you downsize then apply more cream. Plus why would CFIs go to Envoy for 10 year upgrades? Do you understand what's going on now? Senior citizen business class over.

Dude get over it.

FlyingKat
02-02-2015, 12:57 PM
As long as you can sucker enough poor CFIs into being your right seater. Sad!

As far as your business statements, you'll need to return to college. See kiddo, 76 seat jets make money even when oil is above $80 barrel. Why would AA want to find someone to do it cheaper? It doesn't really matter if that just means more profit. Dougie P said very clearly at a company town hall that keeping flying with a wholly owned makes the company much more money, as long as the costs are somewhat aligned.

Don't act like you got anytbing more than Xjet and Envoy leftovers. And for gods sake, and your souls sake, stop trying to dupe poor unsuspecting cfis!!

Crusader you just proved your total ignorance in believing anything Doug Parker says. 50 seaters can make money too when they are giving the leases away and reducing capital costs. If you don't think Doug won't hesitate to move airplanes around if the spreadsheet says then you are getting senile which from your posts may very well be the case.

Two years ago he was saying wholly owned airlines don't make sense and was reducing flying at them. One real interesting thing about wholly owneds is maininline can increase or reduce flying at a whim because there is no penalty for this with a wholly owned like there is with another company. Go see how that worked for Comair.

Maybe you need to go back to college if your senile old brain can handle it since your lack of a degree is why you are still at Envoy.

PilotCrusader
02-02-2015, 02:05 PM
Crusader you just proved your total ignorance in believing anything Doug Parker says. 50 seaters can make money too when they are giving the leases away and reducing capital costs. If you don't think Doug won't hesitate to move airplanes around if the spreadsheet says then you are getting senile which from your posts may very well be the case.

Two years ago he was saying wholly owned airlines don't make sense and was reducing flying at them. One real interesting thing about wholly owneds is maininline can increase or reduce flying at a whim because there is no penalty for this with a wholly owned like there is with another company. Go see how that worked for Comair.

Maybe you need to go back to college if your senile old brain can handle it since your lack of a degree is why you are still at Envoy.

Time will tell who is right and who is wrong little guy. My bet is against your ghastly company and the fact they are trying to dupe CFIs and FOs.

HuskerAv8tor
02-02-2015, 02:52 PM
Time will tell who is right and who is wrong little guy. My bet is against your ghastly company and the fact they are trying to dupe CFIs and FOs.
Nobody is getting duped. It is simple, the company is nearly tripling in size, they need people. The math shows quick upgrades for FO's. CQFO's are covered in the contract and it is a good deal for those of us who have no intention of sitting in the right seat of a regional if we can help it. Worst case for us CQFO's we sit in the right seat making more than at our previous airlines. Remember, the TSA pilots did not sign a concessionary contract to get the flying....this is not a PSA/Piedmont situation!

PilotCrusader
02-02-2015, 03:01 PM
Nobody is getting duped. It is simple, the company is trying to triplein size, if they can get enough people. The math shows quick upgrades for a few of the first FOs hired, but ultimately most will not see that. However, our recruiters will try to sell the bigger sweet spot. CQFO's are covered in the contract and it is a good deal for those of us who have no intention of sitting in the right seat of a regional if we can help it. Worst case for us CQFO's we sit in the right seat making more than at our previous airlines.which the math says will happen to some Remember, the TSA pilots did not sign a concessionary contract to get the flying....this is not a PSA/Piedmont situation!we just simply accepted airplanes that the only we might be able to staff them is to create a program that pilfers other regional FOs under false pretenses

Fixed it for ya Chris.

IlliniPilot99
02-02-2015, 03:25 PM
I'm blown away at your consistency!

are we in the metaphorical "get off my lawn" old man kind of angry?

geddeh
02-02-2015, 03:26 PM
Dont feed the troll.

PilotCrusader
02-02-2015, 03:36 PM
I'm blown away at your consistency!

are we in the metaphorical "get off my lawn" old man kind of angry?

There I go posting fact and logical conclusion and all you have is namecalling! Hahahaha

RgrMurdock
02-02-2015, 03:50 PM
What IF, Hulas decided to start another airline with lesser pay/benefits to undercut you all with 145's??? I would NEVER trust a Hula ran organization.

You ever recommend anyone go to Compass?

HuskerAv8tor
02-02-2015, 03:57 PM
Fixed it for ya Chris.
Wrong guy meat!

Pilottim79
02-02-2015, 04:50 PM
So, is that PilotCrusader guy looking at downgrade or furlough? I mean why is he so butt hurt?

I hope he gets to his 17 year flow through at Envoy soon. Maybe he will stop hating on us because we got AA flying.

PilotCrusader
02-02-2015, 05:33 PM
So, is that PilotCrusader guy looking at downgrade or furlough? I mean why is he so butt hurt?

I hope he gets to his 17 year flow through at Envoy soon. Maybe he will stop hating on us because we got AA flying.

I've already explained it to you twice kiddo. You're not very swift.

Airtoday
02-03-2015, 06:33 AM
I am usually a lurker and had to register to post on here. I don't want any part of the storm you guys are kicking up. I did however, recently interview for a CQFO position. Whatever they state the minimums to be, what they don't state is they want you to be currently flying 121/135/military. I left a 121 operator 6 months ago and they immediately stated in the interview that I would not qualify. Even though that was the entire reason I was there. They also stated that they had refused guys more qualified than me because they were not currently at a 121 job. Even though that was the basis of my being there in the first place. They then attempted to sell me on the idea of joining as an FO anyway at the lower pay rate with the insistence that upgrade and growth were so close it would be irrelevant that I had not been a CQFO. I have no opinion as to why any of this is the way it is. I am merely relaying the facts. For anyone considering it, please be very vigilant when making initial contact. Ask as many question of the recruiter before you travel for the interview and make sure you are both on the same page. Remember, it is your time and money as well.

PilotCrusader
02-03-2015, 07:03 AM
I am usually a lurker and had to register to post on here. I don't want any part of the storm you guys are kicking up. I did however, recently interview for a CQFO position. Whatever they state the minimums to be, what they don't state is they want you to be currently flying 121/135/military. I left a 121 operator 6 months ago and they immediately stated in the interview that I would not qualify. Even though that was the entire reason I was there. They also stated that they had refused guys more qualified than me because they were not currently at a 121 job. Even though that was the basis of my being there in the first place. They then attempted to sell me on the idea of joining as an FO anyway at the lower pay rate with the insistence that upgrade and growth were so close it would be irrelevant that I had not been a CQFO. I have no opinion as to why any of this is the way it is. I am merely relaying the facts. For anyone considering it, please be very vigilant when making initial contact. Ask as many question of the recruiter before you travel for the interview and make sure you are both on the same page. Remember, it is your time and money as well.

Wow. Thanks for sharing! Sounds like a bait and switch car dealership tactic. I guess I would expect this kind of stuff if one of their recruiters is on here insinuating my wife is a prostitute!

Buyer beware! Do you want to work for a company that comes out of the gate with dishonesty? They knew this guys qualifications, brought him out knowing they wouldn't hire him as a CQFO, only to try and bait him into being stuck as an FO at a company with tired hand me down airplanes and a limited shelf life! Sad!!!

FlyingKat
02-03-2015, 08:02 AM
Wow. Thanks for sharing! Sounds like a bait and switch car dealership tactic. I guess I would expect this kind of stuff if one of their recruiters is on here insinuating my wife is a prostitute!

Buyer beware! Do you want to work for a company that comes out of the gate with dishonesty? They knew this guys qualifications, brought him out knowing they wouldn't hire him as a CQFO, only to try and bait him into being stuck as an FO at a company with tired hand me down airplanes and a limited shelf life! Sad!!!

Crusader you are really an idiot. They are only hiring CURRENT 121/135/military guys for CQFO because they are going right to the left seat and there is no way the company is going to hire someone that isn't current right into the left seat.

Anyone not current can apply for the right seat and upgrade like everyone else.

You're so stupid you are telling people not to go to Trans States because of the history of management, but recommeded for them to go to Compass. You do know the DO that made TSA such an oppressive place to work is now the DO at Compass right?

Like I said. You're senile. Go get help.

PilotCrusader
02-03-2015, 08:08 AM
Crusader you are really an idiot. They are only hiring CURRENT 121/135/military guys for CQFO because they are going right to the left seat and there is no way the company is going to hire someone that isn't current right into the left seat.

Anyone not current can apply for the right seat and upgrade like everyone else.

You're so stupid you are telling people not to go to Trans States because of the history of management, but recommeded for them to go to Compass. You do know the DO that made TSA such an oppressive place to work is now the DO at Compass right?

Like I said. You're senile. Go get help.
Misdirection: You are trying, and failing at it.

The guy below just said he was called for a CQFO position. CQFO. Not FO. Reading comprehension dummy. When he got there they tell him he is not qualified for the CQFO, which they would have known way before dragging him out there. So next they try to "sell" him on a regular FO position. That is just slime ball tactics.

So go ahead. Keep trying to move away from the actual discussion by calling me old, stupid, that my wife is a prostitute, etc. If the moderators want to let you guys keep up the personal attacks, well then I guess we can all play right?

FlyingKat
02-03-2015, 08:39 AM
Misdirection: You are trying, and failing at it.

The guy below just said he was called for a CQFO position. CQFO. Not FO. Reading comprehension dummy. When he got there they tell him he is not qualified for the CQFO, which they would have known way before dragging him out there. So next they try to "sell" him on a regular FO position. That is just slime ball tactics.

So go ahead. Keep trying to move away from the actual discussion by calling me old, stupid, that my wife is a prostitute, etc. If the moderators want to let you guys keep up the personal attacks, well then I guess we can all play right?

LOL personal attacks? I guess calling people liars isn't a personal attack? Oh and adding nothing relevant to the discussion other than flaming. LOL. You're worse than Archer driver.

HuskerAv8tor
02-03-2015, 09:38 AM
I am usually a lurker and had to register to post on here. I don't want any part of the storm you guys are kicking up. I did however, recently interview for a CQFO position. Whatever they state the minimums to be, what they don't state is they want you to be currently flying 121/135/military. I left a 121 operator 6 months ago and they immediately stated in the interview that I would not qualify. Even though that was the entire reason I was there. They also stated that they had refused guys more qualified than me because they were not currently at a 121 job. Even though that was the basis of my being there in the first place. They then attempted to sell me on the idea of joining as an FO anyway at the lower pay rate with the insistence that upgrade and growth were so close it would be irrelevant that I had not been a CQFO. I have no opinion as to why any of this is the way it is. I am merely relaying the facts. For anyone considering it, please be very vigilant when making initial contact. Ask as many question of the recruiter before you travel for the interview and make sure you are both on the same page. Remember, it is your time and money as well.
Is there more to this story? We have guys in class who have no 121 experience. This the only negative thing I have heard about the interview process. Basically if someone has the quals the job is theirs to take on the spot.

Airtoday
02-03-2015, 09:48 AM
Is there more to this story? We have guys in class who have no 121 experience. This the only negative thing I have heard about the interview process. Basically if someone has the quals the job is theirs to take on the spot.

There isn't any more to this story. Pm me and I will tell you any info you want. Even my old squadron.

Coneydog
02-03-2015, 10:20 AM
How can you blame management for not wanting to hire someone as a captain when they are not even current? Chances are that you'll be flying with brand new FO's. I'm quite sure they would tell you this on the phone before you came out. I've also heard they are turning people away for various reasons. No one is entitled to the position.

PilotCrusader
02-03-2015, 11:00 AM
How can you blame management for not wanting to hire someone as a captain when they are not even current? Chances are that you'll be flying with brand new FO's. I'm quite sure they would tell you this on the phone before you came out. I've also heard they are turning people away for various reasons. No one is entitled to the position.

I don't blame managent for that. I blame them for inviting someone to a CQFO interview only to waste the persons time by telling them they are not qualified once they get there, and then running the bait and switch to try and get them to sign on as regular FO. That is slime ball stuff.

Coneydog
02-03-2015, 11:13 AM
I don't blame managent for that. I blame them for inviting someone to a CQFO interview only to waste the persons time by telling them they are not qualified once they get there, and then running the bait and switch to try and get them to sign on as regular FO. That is slime ball stuff.

You/we don't even know what happened. Stop speculating. There are 100 people in classes right now that say all is good.

CBreezy
02-03-2015, 11:22 AM
Isn't it entirely possible the guy went to an interview under the assumption that, since he had 3500TT, he was interviewing for a CQFO spot? When, in reality, he was just invited to an interview?

Also, the CQFO isn't a management tactic. It's a union restriction. The company originally wanted to hire street captains but there is a section in the contract that prohibits them from doing so. They wanted relief on it but the union said no. They wouldn't even be doing this program if more of their FOs were eligible to upgrade. The fact is, as of the last bid, only 16 FOs had a standing bid in for Captain.

Airtoday
02-03-2015, 12:05 PM
My post was not meant to be fodder for any arguments. I hold the time. I was invited to the interview as CQFO candidate and then offered a job as an FO because they said my 121 currency had lapsed. It not meant to make a point for anyone and perhaps they just made a mistake. My post is for the original poster and anyone else applying to be sure to confirm your status before you go. As a side note, I almost considered the FO position, their logic was sound, with the exception of a lot of what ifs. Good luck to all those in their individual pursuits. Mine may be an isolated case. Just check six guys.

PilotCrusader
02-03-2015, 01:55 PM
Careful dude. They'll call you a liar pretty soon.

ILOVELAMP
02-03-2015, 02:59 PM
Careful dude. They'll call you a liar pretty soon.

No you're the only uniformed liar here.

iPilot
02-03-2015, 03:15 PM
Airtoday's experience is interesting. I would guess just from reading they're holding strong to the current 121/135 experience. I got the impression during my interview that it has a lot to do with the FAA and/or insurance making the call whether they can be trained as a CQFO or FO. Regardless of what happened the one thing to keep in mind is that no job interview is a sure bet. Whether you screw the pooch in the sim, mis-spell the company's name in the application, or just the interviewer doesn't like the look of your face, nothing is guaranteed. Certainly not saying Airtoday did anything wrong, sometimes you don't have to do anything wrong (10 A+ pilots and 8 slots means 2 perfect pilots don't win).

I imagine as word continues to get out about this program that competition will continue to grow then wane as the benefit of getting in early goes away and the expected time in the right seat grows. That said even if hired as an FO or being near the back of the 200 expected CQFOs does have distinct benefit over a lot of other carriers.

In other words, "your mileage may vary, limited time offer, not valid in the state of Nevada, New Hampshire, and Florida. See your doctor for details."

outaluckagain
02-05-2015, 08:59 PM
What is the part on their hiring page that says normal FO requirements are restricted ATP eligible?
What is being implied here? Does this mean they are saying that only those people with the right degree from the right school are being considered?

CBreezy
02-06-2015, 02:44 AM
What is the part on their hiring page that says normal FO requirements are restricted ATP eligible?
What is being implied here? Does this mean they are saying that only those people with the right degree from the right school are being considered?

No. It means if you are restricted ATP eligible, they can issue you one. No other subtext.

outaluckagain
02-06-2015, 09:24 AM
No. It means if you are restricted ATP eligible, they can issue you one. No other subtext.

So..That means that if my degree wasn't restricted ATP eligible, then I will still qualify with regular ATP eligible...Correct?

flyingreasemnky
02-06-2015, 10:40 AM
So..That means that if my degree wasn't restricted ATP eligible, then I will still qualify with regular ATP eligible...Correct?

That is just a minimum and yes, you qualify for FO with a regular ATP. You can qualify for the restricted ATP without a degree with just 1200 hours or even 1500 if you don't meet all the x-country mins, etc.

Av8er1550
02-06-2015, 05:39 PM
Man, just reading through this post pushes me away from flying for the airlines. I'm still building time for my ATP, but sometimes I read posts like these and it really is discouraging....

Coneydog
02-06-2015, 05:51 PM
Man, just reading through this post pushes me away from flying for the airlines. I'm still building time for my ATP, but sometimes I read posts like these and it really is discouraging....

Which part?? Lol

knobcrk
02-06-2015, 05:55 PM
Man, just reading through this post pushes me away from flying for the airlines. I'm still building time for my ATP, but sometimes I read posts like these and it really is discouraging....

It's the same at the majors too, pilots will be pilots.

Riverside
02-06-2015, 06:24 PM
Man, just reading through this post pushes me away from flying for the airlines. I'm still building time for my ATP, but sometimes I read posts like these and it really is discouraging....

You're not going to find the prefect aviation job, unless you're rich. Don't let the internet ruin your goal.

bedrock
02-06-2015, 08:29 PM
Man, just reading through this post pushes me away from flying for the airlines. I'm still building time for my ATP, but sometimes I read posts like these and it really is discouraging....

A lot of these posts are from those of us who gave 10+ yrs to the airlines and have been pretty beaten down, but for those starting, the future looks pretty good. You will have to put more time in now at the low end, but the payoff will be even better. The occupation of airline pilot should never have been entry level. The head up their rear MBA types tried to make it that way, and Colgan and others resulted. The real threat to our career is the MPL, and that isn't possible here for the time being. Just know you are going to have to suck it up for a couple of yrs. Better to do it now, while you're young, than when you're pushing 35+, want to start a family and you're making barely 40K/yr with no end in sight.

iahflyr
02-07-2015, 02:14 PM
What is the blended rate for CQFO's?

TalkTurkey
02-07-2015, 02:33 PM
Man, just reading through this post pushes me away from flying for the airlines. I'm still building time for my ATP, but sometimes I read posts like these and it really is discouraging....

Ahhh who cares. nobody wants you anyway :)

TheWrightStuff
02-07-2015, 04:09 PM
Man, just reading through this post pushes me away from flying for the airlines. I'm still building time for my ATP, but sometimes I read posts like these and it really is discouraging....

One less person to compete against. No complaints here.

Sunnyvale Ricky
02-07-2015, 04:22 PM
What is the blended rate for CQFO's?

$63/hour for your time in the left seat. $43/hour for your time in the right seat during your first year.

08udaviator
02-15-2015, 06:00 PM
I know this is a TSA thread so thought I would throw this out there to whoever would know. But does TSA have a "commuter clause"?

Coneydog
02-15-2015, 06:02 PM
I know this is a TSA thread so thought I would throw this out there to whoever would know. But does TSA have a "commuter clause"?

Yes. Unlimited.

Facebitten
02-15-2015, 06:07 PM
Yes. Unlimited.

How can it actually be unlimited. What happens when you abuse it? Kind of surprised someone hasn't screwed this up for everyone yet.

Coneydog
02-15-2015, 06:21 PM
How can it actually be unlimited. What happens when you abuse it? Kind of surprised someone hasn't screwed this up for everyone yet.

It used to be 5 times a year, but they chaned it to unlimited. You have to be listed on at least 2 flights an hour apart to make your show time. So, you have to make an effort to use the clause. Great management...very pilot friendly. They just expect everyone to be professionals and do their job.

v1valarob
02-15-2015, 06:21 PM
How can it actually be unlimited. What happens when you abuse it? Kind of surprised someone hasn't screwed this up for everyone yet.


There's not many regional pilots that can afford to not get paid.

Dukeuno
02-15-2015, 06:25 PM
How can it actually be unlimited. What happens when you abuse it? Kind of surprised someone hasn't screwed this up for everyone yet.
When you treat pilots like adults they act like adults. XJT has the same thing and we don't have issue either. I really think if these companies would go to unlimited sick calls then you would probably see sick time go down. ( SWA does this and their sick call are actually pretty low. )

08udaviator
02-15-2015, 06:33 PM
Yes. Unlimited.

Can you explain? I am totally new to this world and I know others have it...and im sure it differs from one to another.

Check that....it seems Coneydog did just that

minimwage4
02-15-2015, 07:24 PM
When you treat pilots like adults they act like adults. XJT has the same thing and we don't have issue either. I really think if these companies would go to unlimited sick calls then you would probably see sick time go down. ( SWA does this and their sick call are actually pretty low. )

No you wouldn't, sick calls are some times the only way to get time off with the schedules that regional pilots are forced to fly.

Riverside
02-15-2015, 08:33 PM
How can it actually be unlimited. What happens when you abuse it? Kind of surprised someone hasn't screwed this up for everyone yet.

If you're a line holder you sit reserve. Until you can catch up with your pairing. So I'm sure you'll make sure you get to your flight.

oicur12
02-16-2015, 05:43 AM
Hey all,

I will be attending the Career Information Session in SFO tomorrow and was hoping to get some info before walking in.

This session is a walk in interview from what I can tell. Will there be any more components to the selection process or would a yes/no be given following this event in SFO?

Does the fact that its being held in SFO indicate an intention to open a crew base in SFO?

Are the lines for DEN based crew commutable to the west coast? Can anybody possibly PM a copy of a regular line so I can get an idea of what a typical month would look like?

Any guidance would be greatly appreciated,

TBucket
02-16-2015, 05:59 AM
Hey all,

I will be attending the Career Information Session in SFO tomorrow and was hoping to get some info before walking in.

This session is a walk in interview from what I can tell. Will there be any more components to the selection process or would a yes/no be given following this event in SFO?

Does the fact that its being held in SFO indicate an intention to open a crew base in SFO?

Are the lines for DEN based crew commutable to the west coast? Can anybody possibly PM a copy of a regular line so I can get an idea of what a typical month would look like?

Any guidance would be greatly appreciated,


1. No SFO base.

2. DEN isn't open yet so no one knows.

tm602
02-16-2015, 09:33 AM
It used to be 5 times a year, but they chaned it to unlimited. You have to be listed on at least 2 flights an hour apart to make your show time. So, you have to make an effort to use the clause. Great management...very pilot friendly. They just expect everyone to be professionals and do their job.

This must be a new Trash States...I was there ending in 2005 and it SUCKED.

Timma
02-16-2015, 01:46 PM
This must be a new Trash States...I was there ending in 2005 and it SUCKED.

Yes it was back then from what I hear, it is a totally different company now. Good people in Mgmt and friendly work environment now.

minimwage4
02-16-2015, 02:45 PM
Hey all,

I will be attending the Career Information Session in SFO tomorrow and was hoping to get some info before walking in.

This session is a walk in interview from what I can tell. Will there be any more components to the selection process or would a yes/no be given following this event in SFO?

Does the fact that its being held in SFO indicate an intention to open a crew base in SFO?

Are the lines for DEN based crew commutable to the west coast? Can anybody possibly PM a copy of a regular line so I can get an idea of what a typical month would look like?

Any guidance would be greatly appreciated,

Typically commutable lines have you start a trip around noon and you either finish around early PM or late PM. They're usually 3 to 4 day trips and you will have about 11 to 12 days off.

oicur12
02-16-2015, 04:43 PM
Thanks all for the feedback.

"Typically commutable lines...."

Are commutable lines such as the ones you describe available for all trips or is it luck of the draw? Can you bid for commute friendly trips and if so is bidding based on start date?

Thanks again, sounding more like a job that could work for me.

Riverside
02-17-2015, 05:27 PM
Thanks all for the feedback.

"Typically commutable lines...."

Are commutable lines such as the ones you describe available for all trips or is it luck of the draw? Can you bid for commute friendly trips and if so is bidding based on start date?

Thanks again, sounding more like a job that could work for me.

For me I live in base. I tend to bid trips that shows at 12pm. The last day I usually drop my last round trip and be done at 6pm. Morning bids starts with a 7:30 am show time. Last day you are usually done at 4pm. While pm have 5pm shows on day one. Then last day you get done around 9pm.

Caveman
02-18-2015, 01:58 AM
I was informed that 500 hours of the 1000 hour 121 time requirement, could be satisfied by military time....but there are no "pure" military being hired directly as a CQFO.

CBreezy
02-18-2015, 04:02 AM
I was informed that 500 hours of the 1000 hour 121 time requirement, could be satisfied by military time....but there are no "pure" military being hired directly as a CQFO.

Right. So what's your question?

ReelyBad
02-18-2015, 05:02 AM
January 14th has 14 CQFO. 2 FOs now. (one guy went to the next class and one FO left)

Feb 2nd class has about 9 CQFO 9 FO.Not exact numbers but it's close to that. Most new hire classes have a couple no shows.

From looking into the previous posts I came up with:

December 3rd 9 CQFO'S, 3 FO's

December 16th 13 CQFO's, 3 FO's

January 5th 20 CQFO’s, 5 FO’s

January 14th 15 CQFO’s, 3 FO’s

The numbers I am coming up with are around 57 CQFO's and 14 FO's since December 3rd. Are these numbers accurate?

Thanks,

Speed

Caveman
02-18-2015, 07:35 AM
Right. So what's your question?
No question in that post. Just posting one of the points covered during a conversation with a TSA pilot/recruiter after inquiring into the CQFO program.

But I've got a few ??? for you now though😎

How many planes are currently on property?

What is the planned expansion?

Is there a published aircraft delivery schedule?

Trying to read a crystal ball, on projecting how long a military guy with zero 121 time, but exceeds all the other CQFO requirements, would be at FO pay.

Riverside
02-18-2015, 08:13 AM
No question in that post. Just posting one of the points covered during a conversation with a TSA pilot/recruiter after inquiring into the CQFO program.

But I've got a few ??? for you now though😎

How many planes are currently on property?

What is the planned expansion?

Is there a published aircraft delivery schedule?

Trying to read a crystal ball, on projecting how long a military guy with zero 121 time, but exceeds all the other CQFO requirements, would be at FO pay.

Two new planes
36 from United and 15 from American
Nothing is published.

CBreezy
02-18-2015, 08:29 AM
No question in that post. Just posting one of the points covered during a conversation with a TSA pilot/recruiter after inquiring into the CQFO program.

But I've got a few ??? for you now though��

How many planes are currently on property?

What is the planned expansion?

Is there a published aircraft delivery schedule?

Trying to read a crystal ball, on projecting how long a military guy with zero 121 time, but exceeds all the other CQFO requirements, would be at FO pay.

You'll be on FO pay until you get 1000 SIC hours. That's an FAA requirement. Depending on when you get hired, your upgrade will be between a year or longer. The music stops next January.

Or 500 SIC if you flew a ME Crew aircraft in the military. Either way, the sooner you get in, the better. If you get in late, you'll be at the bottom of the list.

N6279P
02-18-2015, 08:36 AM
You'll be on FO pay until you get 1000 SIC hours. That's an FAA requirement. Depending on when you get hired, your upgrade will be between a year or longer. The music stops next January.

The FAA regulates pay now? Where have I been?

CBreezy
02-18-2015, 08:52 AM
The FAA regulates pay now? Where have I been?

Is this a real question?

Bellanca
02-18-2015, 08:52 AM
The FAA regulates pay now? Where have I been?

Trans States isn't going to pay CQFO (or captain) pay to people who aren't legally able to act as PIC.

Caveman
02-18-2015, 09:36 AM
http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/02/18/9f168a466f4ceeabdfbb4174a2748998.jpg

CBreezy
02-18-2015, 09:41 AM
http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/02/18/9f168a466f4ceeabdfbb4174a2748998.jpg

Right. So you can't legally be a PIC until you get 500 SIC if you flew a crew aircraft in the military. Once you're on the list, you go to the bottom of it regardless of experience. once you meet all upgrade requirements you can submit a bid to upgrade and depending on how many qualified pilots ahead of you will depend on when you can upgrade. Until then, you're an FO. Period.

Caveman
02-18-2015, 09:44 AM
You'll be on FO pay until you get 1000 SIC hours. That's an FAA requirement. Depending on when you get hired, your upgrade will be between a year or longer. The music stops next January.

Or 500 SIC if you flew a ME Crew aircraft in the military. Either way, the sooner you get in, the better. If you get in late, you'll be at the bottom of the list.
What happens next January? I asked/searched for an aircraft delivery schedule...couldn't come up with one. What is special about TSA's plan to man this growth....it seems other Regional operators are having staffing issues without growth?

Real questions, looking at the possibility of adding 121 experience to my resume, and the TSA growth plan/CQFO program looked like one of the more promising options. Thanks in advance.

CBreezy
02-18-2015, 09:48 AM
What happens next January? I asked/searched for an aircraft delivery schedule...couldn't come up with one. What is special about TSA's plan to man this growth....it seems other Regional operators are having staffing issues without growth?

Real questions, looking at the possibility of adding 121 experience to my resume, and the TSA growth plan/CQFO program looked like one of the more promising options. Thanks in advance.

You aren't and will not be eligible for CQFO unless you get a job at another airline.

PSA, Mesa, and current us are not having any staffing issues.

After 1st quarter of next year, the current addition of airplanes per month (between 2-5) stops. So any new upgrades will be based on attrition of Captains to other jobs.

Caveman
02-18-2015, 06:19 PM
Thanks for the insights provided. Sounds like a good opportunity for someone at another Regional, facing a "longer" wait to upgrade.

Case I
02-18-2015, 07:12 PM
Caveman, if you have the 500 multi/multi crew, you will be able to hold CA with your seniority about the time you get ur 500 of 121. Even if you're a point-nose guy, 1000 hrs and upgrade will come at TSA faster than most, almost all lines built for 80+ hrs. TSA will have the 80+ jets for 5 yrs (up from 30 something now). You'll be long gone before the wheels come off... You gotta get the time somewhere, so start fast (unless u have the cred to straight to the big league, then get the hell out of the regional threads:D).

Caveman
02-19-2015, 02:28 AM
Caveman, if you have the 500 multi/multi crew, you will be able to hold CA with your seniority about the time you get ur 500 of 121. Even if you're a point-nose guy, 1000 hrs and upgrade will come at TSA faster than most, almost all lines built for 80+ hrs. TSA will have the 80+ jets for 5 yrs (up from 30 something now). You'll be long gone before the wheels come off... You gotta get the time somewhere, so start fast (unless u have the cred to straight to the big league, then get the hell out of the regional threads:D).

Thanks Case. I'm an Army guy, so no pointy stuff for us unless its hanging off a missle rack :)

4700 TT (all mil)
3100 ME Turbine Airplane
1600 ME Turbine Airplane PIC
1600 ME Turbine Helo
1000 ME Turbine Helo PIC
1000 Turbofan
ATP, the types in my profile, and the rest of it (passport, class 1 med, etc), but like many other folks (with higher quality experience), my phone isn't ringing off the hook despite apps in everywhere. Seriously considering applying for a regional position to add 121 to the resume.

It looks like the math says 6-7 months until a mil guy would accrue his 500+500 121 time... Just a helluva gamble if the music was to stop sooner vs later at year 1 FO pay.

If there are some TSA Captains reading this thread, I'd appreciate a PM to ask some more questions.

CBreezy
02-19-2015, 03:35 AM
Thanks Case. I'm an Army guy, so no pointy stuff for us unless its hanging off a missle rack :)

4700 TT (all mil)
3100 ME Turbine Airplane
1600 ME Turbine Airplane PIC
1600 ME Turbine Helo
1000 ME Turbine Helo PIC
1000 Turbofan
ATP, the types in my profile, and the rest of it (passport, class 1 med, etc), but like many other folks (with higher quality experience), my phone isn't ringing off the hook despite apps in everywhere. Seriously considering applying for a regional position to add 121 to the resume.

It looks like the math says 6-7 months until a mil guy would accrue his 500+500 121 time... Just a helluva gamble if the music was to stop sooner vs later at year 1 FO pay.

If there are some TSA Captains reading this thread, I'd appreciate a PM to ask some more questions.
You're going to spend no less than 10 months on 1st year pay. It'll take approximately 3 to get through training and 7-8 to get 500 depending on the timing of IOE.

SpeedTaped
02-19-2015, 01:25 PM
Trans States Airlines has some exciting news! We have reduced the total time required for CQFO's to 2,500 hours!

Off the recruiting FB Page...

AZ wildcat
02-19-2015, 03:43 PM
Trans States Airlines has some exciting news! We have reduced the total time required for CQFO's to 2,500 hours!

Off the recruiting FB Page...

There's the dik punch we've all been fearing. Well played TSA. Well played.

Hou757
02-19-2015, 04:15 PM
Trans States Airlines has some exciting news! We have reduced the total time required for CQFO's to 2,500 hours!

Off the recruiting FB Page...

Yep. It's going real well!!!

CBreezy
02-19-2015, 04:20 PM
There's the dik punch we've all been fearing. Well played TSA. Well played.

How is that a punch?

CBreezy
02-19-2015, 04:21 PM
Yep. It's going real well!!!

Classes are still nearly full. Try again.

AZ wildcat
02-19-2015, 05:00 PM
How is that a punch?

It's a punch to guys that left their previous airlines based on a given set of information and prior to even hitting the line have that information vastly changed.
It's not a wrecking ball, just a dik punch. Would we still have done it with this information? I for one can say yes based on my personal circumstances but others maybe not. Just that all of the sudden instead of being a great move it becomes pretty ok.

CBreezy
02-19-2015, 05:05 PM
It's a punch to guys that left their previous airlines based on a given set of information and prior to even hitting the line have that information vastly changed.
It's not a wrecking ball, just a dik punch. Would we still have done it with this information? I for one can say yes based on my personal circumstances but others maybe not. Just that all of the sudden instead of being a great move it becomes pretty ok.

How has that information vastly changed? I don't see anything that's changed for anyone CQFOs currently on property. Perhaps you could be a little more specific on why anyone would be upset about that?

AZ wildcat
02-19-2015, 05:12 PM
How has that information vastly changed? I don't see anything that's changed for anyone CQFOs currently on property. Perhaps you could be a little more specific on why anyone would be upset about that?

I'm not intending to get into a whole big thing with anyone about why this takes the wind out of the sails of the CQFOs on property because I dont feel like it, and I doubt anyone cares.
That being said. I just want from around 20 something on the upgrade list to probably 120 something if I'm lucky. That's what's changed. That's what feels like a punch.
No small part of a lot of our decisions was the fact that only 30 pilots on property had the upgrade mins. Now that's changed vastly. Is it unfair? Is it dirty? Is it bad business? I'm not saying any of that. Just said it was a punch.

airspeed1974
02-19-2015, 05:22 PM
I sent an email to Laura (I think that's her name) saying I was interested as maybe I would need to do this before going to a major. I told her my current quals with well above what they are looking for. But it seems that since I'm overseas that I can't apply because the 121 time needs to be with a U.S. Carrier. Oh well....

Duksrule
02-19-2015, 05:39 PM
Thanks Case. I'm an Army guy, so no pointy stuff for us unless its hanging off a missle rack :)

4700 TT (all mil)
3100 ME Turbine Airplane
1600 ME Turbine Airplane PIC
1600 ME Turbine Helo
1000 ME Turbine Helo PIC
1000 Turbofan
ATP, the types in my profile, and the rest of it (passport, class 1 med, etc), but like many other folks (with higher quality experience), my phone isn't ringing off the hook despite apps in everywhere. Seriously considering applying for a regional position to add 121 to the resume.

It looks like the math says 6-7 months until a mil guy would accrue his 500+500 121 time... Just a helluva gamble if the music was to stop sooner vs later at year 1 FO pay.

If there are some TSA Captains reading this thread, I'd appreciate a PM to ask some more questions.

I am sure that everyone will give me crap but look at Sun Air. I am sure they suck as bad or worse than every other regional but they are hiring straight to the left seat and the starting pay in a piston twin is $50K +. You are flying pax, and have a right seater so the crew concept is there. If you are just looking to put the check in a block at least you can do it at a much higher pay rate from day one.

Coneydog
02-19-2015, 05:41 PM
I am sure that everyone will give me crap but look at Sun Air. I am sure they suck as bad or worse than every other regional but they are hiring straight to the left seat and the starting pay in a piston twin is $50K +. You are flying pax, and have a right seater so the crew concept is there. If you are just looking to put the check in a block at least you can do it at a much higher pay rate from day one.

Are you for real???

Hou757
02-19-2015, 05:43 PM
Classes are still nearly full. Try again.

If they were getting what they needed then they would not have to lower minimums. I've talked to several FO"s that considered the offer but later declined. I figured you would get a large amount up front but now it's going to become much tougher.

Dieeegz
02-19-2015, 05:50 PM
Would you say this is a good place to go for low time FO (1500 CFI)?

Coneydog
02-19-2015, 05:54 PM
I'm not intending to get into a whole big thing with anyone about why this takes the wind out of the sails of the CQFOs on property because I dont feel like it, and I doubt anyone cares.
That being said. I just want from around 20 something on the upgrade list to probably 120 something if I'm lucky. That's what's changed. That's what feels like a punch.
No small part of a lot of our decisions was the fact that only 30 pilots on property had the upgrade mins. Now that's changed vastly. Is it unfair? Is it dirty? Is it bad business? I'm not saying any of that. Just said it was a punch.

Dude, you're gonna be fine. You'll finish class, check out as a captain, and you'll hit the line as a reserve captain. Highly doubt you're ever gonna fly as an FO.

v1valarob
02-19-2015, 06:32 PM
I sent an email to Laura (I think that's her name) saying I was interested as maybe I would need to do this before going to a major. I told her my current quals with well above what they are looking for. But it seems that since I'm overseas that I can't apply because the 121 time needs to be with a U.S. Carrier. Oh well....


Erm ... We have a guy in class whose a CQF who was flying right seat international.

Hou757
02-19-2015, 06:34 PM
I'm not intending to get into a whole big thing with anyone about why this takes the wind out of the sails of the CQFOs on property because I dont feel like it, and I doubt anyone cares.
That being said. I just want from around 20 something on the upgrade list to probably 120 something if I'm lucky. That's what's changed. That's what feels like a punch.
No small part of a lot of our decisions was the fact that only 30 pilots on property had the upgrade mins. Now that's changed vastly. Is it unfair? Is it dirty? Is it bad business? I'm not saying any of that. Just said it was a punch.

That's why this CQFO program is crap. The company can start/stop, adjust and do whatever they want totally screwing people that thought they made a smart move. I would be ****ed as well..

Caveman
02-19-2015, 07:13 PM
How has that information vastly changed? I don't see anything that's changed for anyone CQFOs currently on property. Perhaps you could be a little more specific on why anyone would be upset about that?

CBreezy

I'm just gonna throw this out there...Are you a Captain at TSA?

Riverside
02-19-2015, 07:28 PM
CBreezy

I'm just gonna throw this out there...Are you a Captain at TSA?

Why does it matter?

Blanco
02-19-2015, 07:49 PM
How has that information vastly changed? I don't see anything that's changed for anyone CQFOs currently on property. Perhaps you could be a little more specific on why anyone would be upset about that?

Well it sucks for those of us currently on the upgrade list who could potentially lose their bypass pay. That makes me upset.

AZ wildcat
02-19-2015, 07:59 PM
Well it sucks for those of us currently on the upgrade list who could potentially lose their bypass pay. That makes me upset.

I guess I'm confused now. Which may be what cbreez was not getting about my earlier post. I'm operating under the assumption that the lower mins are across the board. Meaning current FOs now only need 2.5k as well. If this isn't the case then the can of worms about to be opened is so large that I'll be more amused than anything else.
Since that probably CAN'T be the case, how would this affect by-pass pay?

Caveman
02-19-2015, 08:01 PM
Why does it matter?

To put it bluntly....it's hard to gauge the quality of advice or content you read on these forums. I'm humble enough to realize I have much more to learn, but respectful of my experiences as well.

Hope that makes sense. I can sense that this thread might be grow toxic to this line of rhetoric, so in the interest of not derailing the thread, I'll bow out at this time.

Still be interested in hearing CBreezy's response, and PMs from CPTs at TSA.

AZ wildcat
02-19-2015, 08:05 PM
Well it sucks for those of us currently on the upgrade list who could potentially lose their bypass pay. That makes me upset.

Unless.... You were lower in seniority but eligible for upgrade. If that's the case, I get it now and understand....took me a minute.
otherwise...still confused.

Blanco
02-19-2015, 08:22 PM
Unless.... You were lower in seniority but eligible for upgrade. If that's the case, I get it now and understand....took me a minute.
otherwise...still confused.

Yeah you got it.

air101
02-20-2015, 02:59 AM
Would you say this is a good place to go for low time FO (1500 CFI)?

No. Go to PSA, Piedmont, or Compass if you can.

DenverPilot8
02-20-2015, 03:08 AM
I was hired with 3100 hours with over 2000 of them being in the 145. I'm finishing SIM as an FO. I tried several times in vein before I came here to be categorized as a CQFO since I have over 3000 hours (on property FO mins) and I have a lot of time in type. But nevertheless I made the hard decision to make the move here. Coming here when I did makes me senior to every CQFO on property except maybe 8. Now you're telling me that guys with less flight time AND potentially no time in the airplane AND junior to me in seniority will come in as CQFOs and make $18-$36 more per hour than me? Am I understanding this correctly? So by coming 2 months early im being penalized potentially $18k-36k per year? I mean seriously!?! Listen I know like everyone else that nothing is guaranteed in this industry. I don't consider upgrade to captain my God given right or anything. But this isn't right.

CBreezy
02-20-2015, 03:16 AM
To put it bluntly....it's hard to gauge the quality of advice or content you read on these forums. I'm humble enough to realize I have much more to learn, but respectful of my experiences as well.

Hope that makes sense. I can sense that this thread might be grow toxic to this line of rhetoric, so in the interest of not derailing the thread, I'll bow out at this time.

Still be interested in hearing CBreezy's response, and PMs from CPTs at TSA.

My position is irrelevant. I don't PM but why do you only want Captain PMs? Wouldn't the more relevant advice be from FOs since you'll be one?

BrewCity
02-20-2015, 05:34 AM
I was hired with 3100 hours with over 2000 of them being in the 145. I'm finishing SIM as an FO. I tried several times in vein before I came here to be categorized as a CQFO since I have over 3000 hours (on property FO mins) and I have a lot of time in type. But nevertheless I made the hard decision to make the move here. Coming here when I did makes me senior to every CQFO on property except maybe 8. Now you're telling me that guys with less flight time AND potentially no time in the airplane AND junior to me in seniority will come in as CQFOs and make $18-$36 more per hour than me? Am I understanding this correctly? So by coming 2 months early im being penalized potentially $18k-36k per year? I mean seriously!?! Listen I know like everyone else that nothing is guaranteed in this industry. I don't consider upgrade to captain my God given right or anything. But this isn't right.

Your lateral move didn't work out seamlessly and now you're upset?

Riverside
02-20-2015, 05:44 AM
Your lateral move didn't work out seamlessly and now you're upset?


At least he will be senior to them. So I'm not seeing the problem.

DenverPilot8
02-20-2015, 06:26 AM
Your lateral move didn't work out seamlessly and now you're upset?


Of course you make the best decisions you can with the information that you are given. That's all that really anyone can do right? Yeah if this was the case I wouldn't be happy about it of course. I'll be senior to new hires but my upgrade prospect is pretty un clear now. This should qualify current FOs for upgrade much sooner flight time wise and I will be behind them of course (as I should be). But in the meantime while I wait for that I'll be making first year FO pay while pilots junior to me make more. In the case of current CQFOs making more money than current FOs it was a flight time issue. In this case it is not.
You're comment was obviously alluding to something along the lines of whining or something. I certainly don't read these forums for sunshine but sometimes I don't understand people's inharent negativity. You took the time to respond. Like I said. Nothing is guaranteed. But from the prospective of the people that came here for specific reasons this doesn't seem to be a good thing. Time will tell

Caveman
02-20-2015, 06:53 AM
My position is irrelevant. I don't PM but why do you only want Captain PMs? Wouldn't the more relevant advice be from FOs since you'll be one?
No, I likely won't be one, as this appears to be a situation better suited for others. The reason I asked for responses from a CPT, was that would make for the type of qualified feedback I was seeking. A CPT would've been on the property for a while, had been through several iterations of the recurrent training requirements, had more continuity in seeing the company culture change/evolve, and have more insights into TSA as a company.

BrewCity
02-20-2015, 07:18 AM
Of course you make the best decisions you can with the information that you are given. That's all that really anyone can do right? Yeah if this was the case I wouldn't be happy about it of course. I'll be senior to new hires but my upgrade prospect is pretty un clear now. This should qualify current FOs for upgrade much sooner flight time wise and I will be behind them of course (as I should be). But in the meantime while I wait for that I'll be making first year FO pay while pilots junior to me make more. In the case of current CQFOs making more money than current FOs it was a flight time issue. In this case it is not.
You're comment was obviously alluding to something along the lines of whining or something. I certainly don't read these forums for sunshine but sometimes I don't understand people's inharent negativity. You took the time to respond. Like I said. Nothing is guaranteed. But from the prospective of the people that came here for specific reasons this doesn't seem to be a good thing. Time will tell

You are absolutely whining because you wilfully accepted a position at first year pay and and now people who are junior to you with less flight time are going to be making more money than you are. Yes, TSA moved the goalposts on you, but you're naïve if you didn't see that as a possibility

propspin
02-20-2015, 07:33 AM
I was hired with 3100 hours with over 2000 of them being in the 145. I'm finishing SIM as an FO. I tried several times in vein before I came here to be categorized as a CQFO since I have over 3000 hours (on property FO mins) and I have a lot of time in type. But nevertheless I made the hard decision to make the move here. Coming here when I did makes me senior to every CQFO on property except maybe 8. Now you're telling me that guys with less flight time AND potentially no time in the airplane AND junior to me in seniority will come in as CQFOs and make $18-$36 more per hour than me? Am I understanding this correctly? So by coming 2 months early im being penalized potentially $18k-36k per year? I mean seriously!?! Listen I know like everyone else that nothing is guaranteed in this industry. I don't consider upgrade to captain my God given right or anything. But this isn't right.

It sounds like you have not had your recurrent yet as an FO? If that is the case I would assume they will turn you into a CQFO when you reach your recurrent. That saves the company money for an extra upgrade training event and benefits you with a higher payrate as soon as you make the switch. Have they talked about that?

Blanco
02-20-2015, 08:56 AM
You are absolutely whining because you wilfully accepted a position at first year pay and and now people who are junior to you with less flight time are going to be making more money than you are. Yes, TSA moved the goalposts on you, but you're naïve if you didn't see that as a possibility

They moved the goalposts on everybody at TSA. The majority of our captains who busted their a$$ to get to the left seat just saw their efforts undermined by the company. And the FO's on the upgrade list just got the rug pulled out from them pushing upgrade back by several months if not a full year or more. And depending on how the company handles it, (my guess is not with much credibility) bypass pay will be pulled for those who were promised it.

knobcrk
02-20-2015, 08:59 AM
Of course you make the best decisions you can with the information that you are given. That's all that really anyone can do right? Yeah if this was the case I wouldn't be happy about it of course. I'll be senior to new hires but my upgrade prospect is pretty un clear now. This should qualify current FOs for upgrade much sooner flight time wise and I will be behind them of course (as I should be). But in the meantime while I wait for that I'll be making first year FO pay while pilots junior to me make more. In the case of current CQFOs making more money than current FOs it was a flight time issue. In this case it is not.
You're comment was obviously alluding to something along the lines of whining or something. I certainly don't read these forums for sunshine but sometimes I don't understand people's inharent negativity. You took the time to respond. Like I said. Nothing is guaranteed. But from the prospective of the people that came here for specific reasons this doesn't seem to be a good thing. Time will tell


At least you'll be flying out of Denver huh?

For the me me me, now now now generation, nobody owes you anything, certainly not any regional operation. It's ironic that people are complaining about being skipped over in seniority now when they themselves are trying to skip half the pilots by becoming CQFOs.

knobcrk
02-20-2015, 09:06 AM
They moved the goalposts on everybody at TSA. The majority of our captains who busted their a$$ to get to the left seat just saw their efforts undermined by the company. And the FO's on the upgrade list just got the rug pulled out from them pushing upgrade back by several months if not a full year or more. And depending on how the company handles it, (my guess is not with much credibility) bypass pay will be pulled for those who were promised it.

How would it get pulled from under current FOs? They only need 2500 to upgrade.

Bellanca
02-20-2015, 09:21 AM
How would it get pulled from under current FOs? They only need 2500 to upgrade.

My gusss is FOs that came here maybe 1.5 years ago with 1500-2000TT had their 3000 to upgrade, when guys that were hired 3 years ago with 300-500 hours were still time building and ineligible for upgrade as of two days ago, and are now suddenly eligible to upgrade now. So now that FO that was slated for upgrade class in the next month or two and getting bypass pay, is now going to upgrade a year from now and is back to normal FO pay rates. Meanwhile new hire CQFOs with lowef time are making twice as much ,money.

CBreezy
02-20-2015, 10:23 AM
My gusss is FOs that came here maybe 1.5 years ago with 1500-2000TT had their 3000 to upgrade, when guys that were hired 3 years ago with 300-500 hours were still time building and ineligible for upgrade as of two days ago, and are now suddenly eligible to upgrade now. So now that FO that was slated for upgrade class in the next month or two and getting bypass pay, is now going to upgrade a year from now and is back to normal FO pay rates. Meanwhile new hire CQFOs with lowef time are making twice as much ,money.

A year from now? Really? How did you do that math? This has been out for one day and not an official notification. Let's all take a deep breath and see what happens. I find it hard to believe this announcement will push upgrades a year into the future.

Also, as of this announcement, they can't take away bypass pay. If you had your bid in and a CQFO was hired into a spot you could have upgraded, you should still get bypass pay until you upgrade as your upgrade was bypassed.

Riverside
02-20-2015, 10:36 AM
A year from now? Really? How did you do that math? This has been out for one day and not an official notification. Let's all take a deep breath and see what happens. I find it hard to believe this announcement will push upgrades a year into the future.

Also, as of this announcement, they can't take away bypass pay. If you had your bid in and a CQFO was hired into a spot you could have upgraded, you should still get bypass pay until you upgrade as your upgrade was bypassed.


Amen to that sir.

flyingreasemnky
02-20-2015, 10:45 AM
Also, as of this announcement, they can't take away bypass pay. If you had your bid in and a CQFO was hired into a spot you could have upgraded, you should still get bypass pay until you upgrade as your upgrade was bypassed.

Actually, you can lose your bypass pay as it is on a one for one basis. So if more guys senior to you now qualify for upgrade, they are now considered the ones bypassed and you could lose the pay.

v1valarob
02-20-2015, 11:18 AM
Actually, you can lose your bypass pay as it is on a one for one basis. So if more guys senior to you now qualify for upgrade, they are now considered the ones bypassed and you could lose the pay.

It all depends on how well this place is organized and how strict the contract is.

In past experience, and how it should be done is a vacancy notice should be posted with X amount of captain positions to fill. Then an award comes out with those that can hold it with the upgrade hour requirements. Then next to their name it should say “bypassed” and then have the person that they are linked to who is causing them to receive bypass pay.

Once you hold a captain position, you should not be able to to be bumped out of that position unless a displacement notice is posted, and obviously we shouldn't get one of those unless we’re in trouble.

Now with the new minimums posted, when a new vacancy is announced, those who were unable to hold captain due to hour requirements should now be able to hold a newly announced captain position, NOT displace someone else who has been awarded a captain position.

But considering we still submit our standing bid via a piece of paper, and not by an online form, I dont expect this process to be done in a correct manner.

AZ wildcat
02-20-2015, 12:20 PM
This whole deal gets messy now matter how they do it. It's almost cleaner for the company to just lower new hire CQFO mins and that's it. That'll tick off a lot of folks but it's less messy. This is also the only announcement made so far. Nowhere has lower upgrade mins been announced... Interesting times

flyingreasemnky
02-20-2015, 12:28 PM
It all depends on how well this place is organized and how strict the contract is.

In past experience, and how it should be done is a vacancy notice should be posted with X amount of captain positions to fill. Then an award comes out with those that can hold it with the upgrade hour requirements. Then next to their name it should say “bypassed” and then have the person that they are linked to who is causing them to receive bypass pay.

Once you hold a captain position, you should not be able to to be bumped out of that position unless a displacement notice is posted, and obviously we shouldn't get one of those unless we’re in trouble.

Now with the new minimums posted, when a new vacancy is announced, those who were unable to hold captain due to hour requirements should now be able to hold a newly announced captain position, NOT displace someone else who has been awarded a captain position.

But considering we still submit our standing bid via a piece of paper, and not by an online form, I dont expect this process to be done in a correct manner.

Problem is that they are not awarding bypass pay on a vacancy. They are hiring the CQFOs and just figuring out who has their bid in and the ability to hold captain. The last vacancy only awarded 6 captain spots when several more people had their bid in and there were already ~60 CQFOs in training. I have a feeling this will get very messy. It is very different from Pinnacolaba.

CBreezy
02-20-2015, 12:52 PM
Problem is that they are not awarding bypass pay on a vacancy. They are hiring the CQFOs and just figuring out who has their bid in and the ability to hold captain. The last vacancy only awarded 6 captain spots when several more people had their bid in and there were already ~60 CQFOs in training. I have a feeling this will get very messy. It is very different from Pinnacolaba.

I have a feeling that anyone who thinks this isn't being thoroughly tracked hasn't talked to their union rep and doesn't have any clue what the company and union are doing. So, maybe instead of making poor assumptions, you can send an email to your elected representative. Just a thought.

v1valarob
02-20-2015, 03:32 PM
I have a feeling that anyone who thinks this isn't being thoroughly tracked hasn't talked to their union rep and doesn't have any clue what the company and union are doing. So, maybe instead of making poor assumptions, you can send an email to your elected representative. Just a thought.

One elected representative was standing in class yesterday saying "until they upgrade the guys on the bypass list now, they wont lower minimums." This aint my first rodeo. Ive been on committees. The MEC might get a little info from the company, but not much. Especially when negotiations are about to start.

Theres no meat in the vacancy section of the contract. They can pretty much do as they please.

At the same time though, they need FOs just as much as Captains. So they better tread lightly with how they treat people on property.

RgrMurdock
02-20-2015, 04:05 PM
I think it's funny that people may be moved back on the standing bid list by 20 guys with 45 airplanes coming online over the next year and they think it's the end of the world. "I'll never upgrade!" :rolleyes:

People need to step back and relax for one second. The fact that they are lowering minimums is a good thing for most. CQFO's on property are still going to be flying in the left seat. Nothing has changed on the aircraft delivery schedule.

Blanco
02-20-2015, 04:33 PM
I think it's funny that people may be moved back on the standing bid list by 20 guys with 45 airplanes coming online over the next year and they think it's the end of the world. "I'll never upgrade!" :rolleyes:

People need to step back and relax for one second. The fact that they are lowering minimums is a good thing for most. CQFO's on property are still going to be flying in the left seat. Nothing has changed on the aircraft delivery schedule.

It's gonna be a lot more than 20. And thousands of dollars in bypass pay lost. Awesome.

CBreezy
02-20-2015, 04:51 PM
It's gonna be a lot more than 20. And thousands of dollars in bypass pay lost. Awesome.

Are you upset that someone senior to you is going to get their rightfully deserved upgrade and pay before you? Excuse me if I can't feel bad for you.

AZ wildcat
02-20-2015, 05:01 PM
Are you upset that someone senior to you is going to get their rightfully deserved upgrade and pay before you? Excuse me if I can't feel bad for you.

Well while you have your feelings out.... Do you feel that someone like the Denver pilot guy didn't get a bit of a shaft with this deal? He's going to be swinging gear for someone junior to him with less hours. He's not allowed to say 'this stinks' in your world?
I mean if ya can't blow it out on APC, then where can ya? Can I get an amen?

RgrMurdock
02-20-2015, 05:17 PM
Again you guys are just making assumptions as to how many people are in front of you. You have no idea until an updated standing bid list comes out. You also aren't reading what the bypass language says. Nobody who has bypass pay will lose it.

Coneydog
02-20-2015, 05:20 PM
Well while you have your feelings out.... Do you feel that someone like the Denver pilot guy didn't get a bit of a shaft with this deal? He's going to be swinging gear for someone junior to him with less hours. He's not allowed to say 'this stinks' in your world?
I mean if ya can't blow it out on APC, then where can ya? Can I get an amen?

Amen brother!!

knobcrk
02-20-2015, 05:23 PM
My gusss is FOs that came here maybe 1.5 years ago with 1500-2000TT had their 3000 to upgrade, when guys that were hired 3 years ago with 300-500 hours were still time building and ineligible for upgrade as of two days ago, and are now suddenly eligible to upgrade now. So now that FO that was slated for upgrade class in the next month or two and getting bypass pay, is now going to upgrade a year from now and is back to normal FO pay rates. Meanwhile new hire CQFOs with lowef time are making twice as much ,money.

I honestly think this is just a way for them to get FOs. Advertise cqfo to get guys to bite when in reality they'll be on the right seat. But like it's been said I'm sure you will still upgrade pretty quick. Remember this is about the company staffing these planes, it's not about what you want, or doing you a favor.

FlyingKat
02-21-2015, 09:44 AM
I honestly think this is just a way for them to get FOs. Advertise cqfo to get guys to bite when in reality they'll be on the right seat. But like it's been said I'm sure you will still upgrade pretty quick. Remember this is about the company staffing these planes, it's not about what you want, or doing you a favor.

I honestly think you are an idiot. The company is not going to pay upwards of $46 an hour for FOs when they can hire them for $24. We are having a lot of guys moving on to UPS, United, and American. I personally know of 6 guys leaving this month, including our MEC Chairman. Lowering the upgrade minimum has to do with the market and the need to upgrade those on property and hire more CQFOs for the left seat.

And for those uniformed people who were saying those getting bypass pay will lose it, ALPA just sent out an email confirming that once awarded bypass pay, you cannot lose it until upgrade. It is an award just like anything else.

Getting sick and tired of uniformed idiots who don't even work here pontificating on what happens at TSA even though they don't have a freaking clue.

There is going to be more work and upgrades here than we can handle this summer. If you want to come here, upgrade fast, and make a bunch of money welcome aboard.

knobcrk
02-21-2015, 11:09 AM
I honestly think you are an idiot. The company is not going to pay upwards of $46 an hour for FOs when they can hire them for $24. We are having a lot of guys moving on to UPS, United, and American. I personally know of 6 guys leaving this month, including our MEC Chairman. Lowering the upgrade minimum has to do with the market and the need to upgrade those on property and hire more CQFOs for the left seat.

And for those uniformed people who were saying those getting bypass pay will lose it, ALPA just sent out an email confirming that once awarded bypass pay, you cannot lose it until upgrade. It is an award just like anything else.

Getting sick and tired of uniformed idiots who don't even work here pontificating on what happens at TSA even though they don't have a freaking clue.

There is going to be more work and upgrades here than we can handle this summer. If you want to come here, upgrade fast, and make a bunch of money welcome aboard.

You don't seem to understand that it takes two bodies to fly the ERJ. Where will they find FOs? The fact that they lowered mins makes me think they're finally starting to wonder that too.

CBreezy
02-21-2015, 11:31 AM
You don't seem to understand that it takes two bodies to fly the ERJ. Where will they find FOs? The fact that they lowered mins makes me think they're finally starting to wonder that too.

The same place PSA and Mesa are finding them but in greater numbers.

flynavyj
02-21-2015, 01:27 PM
You don't seem to understand that it takes two bodies to fly the ERJ. Where will they find FOs? The fact that they lowered mins makes me think they're finally starting to wonder that too.

The beauty of the CQFO program is you can use people in either seats...as more FO's are needed, that's where the CQFO's will fill...if more CA's then they sit that seat. My guess, the cost of paying an FO $43.xx / hr and having the versatility to use them as a CA if needed it more profitable than giving back the flying.

Trans States has an excellent reputation at negotiating profitable contracts, and the fact that they've lowered CQFO minimums tells me they've got room in their budget to stay in the black with this.

Another piece, the lowering of the CQFO mins now has me qualified for the position again. It'd still be a pay cut, but it's livable. I have other friends that are also considering coming back again, and I'm sure that was part of the goal...this helps attract pilots that are currently out of the industry, but who still meet the minimums. Trans States might be in my future once again...we'll see if I can convince my wife to let me play with jets again.

bjohnson09
02-21-2015, 01:38 PM
...this helps attract pilots that are currently out of the industry, but who still meet the minimums. Trans States might be in my future once again...we'll see if I can convince my wife to let me play with jets again.

Just because you have the minimums does not mean they will bring you on as a CQFO. Many guys that have the time, but have been out of the industry and/or not current Part 121, may not be offered a spot as a CQFO. They will be on 1st year FO pay until the upgrade comes.

flynavyj
02-21-2015, 05:09 PM
I've talked to a few folks in the training department and hiring, and it doesn't sound like it's out of the question...but that doesn't mean it's a sure thing. Won't know till you sign up.

Each of the guys I'm talking about though are former Trans States, and former Captains on the 145. All have at least a couple thousand hours with the company, and 500 T-PIC...but we'll see.

However, I think the biggest win for TSA on this is that it suddenly makes many more FO's competitive for a CQFO position...so I imagine these spots will become a bit more competitive to get, and they're now able to entice a whole group of folks who previously weren't qualified to make the jump.

airspeed1974
02-21-2015, 10:54 PM
Erm ... We have a guy in class whose a CQF who was flying right seat international.

She told me they need 1000 PIC 121 from a U.S. Carrier. So I guess he got it from a U.S. airline?

CBreezy
02-22-2015, 04:17 AM
She told me they need 1000 PIC 121 from a U.S. Carrier. So I guess he got it from a U.S. airline?

You need 1000 SIC.

Celeste
02-22-2015, 09:23 PM
Does anyone have any updates on when DEN is officially opening, and how big of a base it will be?

airspeed1974
02-22-2015, 09:56 PM
Can someone tell me if you definitely CANNOT get on with PIC 121 from a foreign carrier even if you have over 1000 135 PIC from a US carrier

CBreezy
02-23-2015, 03:11 AM
Can someone tell me if you definitely CANNOT get on with PIC 121 from a foreign carrier even if you have over 1000 135 PIC from a US carrier

Find a LOI. I have zero motivation to do it for you.

Case I
02-23-2015, 04:12 AM
Find a LOI. I have zero motivation to do it for you.

Nothing to do with an LOI, it's FAR 121.436. If you meet that, and are CURRENT with those 135/121 hours, I will buy you dinner if you're not hired as a CQFO.

Riverside
02-23-2015, 04:33 AM
Does anyone have any updates on when DEN is officially opening, and how big of a base it will be?

I was wondering myself. Most of my line is Denver turns and overnights.

CBreezy
02-23-2015, 05:13 AM
I was wondering myself. Most of my line is Denver turns and overnights.

When XJT gives us their crew room.

CBreezy
02-23-2015, 05:18 AM
Nothing to do with an LOI, it's FAR 121.436. If you meet that, and are CURRENT with those 135/121 hours, I will buy you dinner if you're not hired as a CQFO.

My point being, is your foreign carrier governed by 121? Were your 1000 SIC in 135 achieved before the signing of the law and does it meet the requirements of 121.436? Is there an LOI that discusses your specific scenario?

FlyingKat
02-23-2015, 06:15 AM
Does anyone have any updates on when DEN is officially opening, and how big of a base it will be?

Now saying May. Last I heard 18 airplanes.....

Coneydog
02-23-2015, 06:46 AM
I just ran into a check airman that says there is no way we can staff all these airplanes. We've interviewed 3 guys in the last 2 weeks. The fact that they just lowered minimums is showing signs of panic. Where are we going to get FO's? Not everyone can be captain. And it's not like another regional can take those planes. Everyone is having staffing issues. I just talked to a buddy a XJET: they had 3 reserve guys for 1000 pilots last weekend at IAH. This will be an interesting year.

CBreezy
02-23-2015, 06:51 AM
I just ran into a check airman that says there is no way we can staff all these airplanes. We've interviewed 3 guys in the last 2 weeks. The fact that they just lowered minimums is showing signs of panic. Where are we going to get FO's? Not everyone can be captain. And it's not like another regional can take those planes. Everyone is having staffing issues. I just talked to a buddy a XJET: they had 3 reserve guys for 1000 pilots last weekend at IAH. This will be an interesting year.

Oh yeah? I talked to check airmen who said we were hiring into a furlough last summer. Then some check airmen said we were never going to get new airplanes. Most of them want it to fail because they are angry and bitter about Uncle Hulas. I don't believe anything that comes out of their mouth that isn't SOP related.

airspeed1974
02-23-2015, 06:52 AM
Find a LOI. I have zero motivation to do it for you.

Thanks fly your help! Whatever dude

airspeed1974
02-23-2015, 07:00 AM
My point being, is your foreign carrier governed by 121? Were your 1000 SIC in 135 achieved before the signing of the law and does it meet the requirements of 121.436? Is there an LOI that discusses your specific scenario?

It's governed by basically the same exact regs as FAA 121. We have A320s and 737 and follow the same rules as a U.S. 121 carrier.

My previous U.S. 121/135 www about 350 SIC and the rest was PIC.

It was done before the signing of the law.

I went online just to try and find if it specifically says a US citizen with a lot of (well over) 1000 PIC in foreign 121 equivalent ops would not qualify.

Coneydog
02-23-2015, 07:04 AM
Oh yeah? I talked to check airmen who said we were hiring into a furlough last summer. Then some check airmen said we were never going to get new airplanes. Most of them want it to fail because they are angry and bitter about Uncle Hulas. I don't believe anything that comes out of their mouth that isn't SOP related.

Checkairman aside, the numbers look daunting. We will have about 600 line pilots in a few months. Classes are full through March I believe. And how many airplanes are we supposed to be getting? The pool of pilots out there is quickly drying up. I very much hope our company can staff this, but I'm just not sure the numbers support this. Worst case scenario is we staff what we can I guess.

CBreezy
02-23-2015, 07:06 AM
It's governed by basically the same exact regs as FAA 121. We have A320s and 737 and follow the same rules as a U.S. 121 carrier.

My previous U.S. 121/135 www about 350 SIC and the rest was PIC.

It was done before the signing of the law.

I went online just to try and find if it specifically says a US citizen with a lot of (well over) 1000 PIC in foreign 121 equivalent ops would not qualify.

The regulation does not say 121 or equivalent. Unless you have 14CFR121 SIC time, 135 PIC time, or the 91 exemption, it doesn't exist. Also, I think somewhere buried in there the SIC has to have occurred since the signing of the law or maybe it was any active Captains at the signing of the law were exempt. I can't remember the verbiage.

tom11011
02-23-2015, 07:08 AM
I just ran into a check airman that says there is no way we can staff all these airplanes. We've interviewed 3 guys in the last 2 weeks. The fact that they just lowered minimums is showing signs of panic. Where are we going to get FO's? Not everyone can be captain. And it's not like another regional can take those planes. Everyone is having staffing issues. I just talked to a buddy a XJET: they had 3 reserve guys for 1000 pilots last weekend at IAH. This will be an interesting year.

How full are your new hire classes, and of those classes, what percent make it through IOE? That is the only valid way to speculate your future.

MavAv8r
02-23-2015, 07:10 AM
Checkairman aside, the numbers look daunting. We will have about 600 line pilots in a few months. Classes are full through March I believe. And how many airplanes are we supposed to be getting? The pool of pilots out there is quickly drying up. I very much hope our company can staff this, but I'm just not sure the numbers support this. Worst case scenario is we staff what we can I guess.

We will need somewhere around 900 ish line pilots… which goes to show the hiring is on track. The last airplane doesn't show up for over another year. Dropping the upgrade minimums will surely help get FO's in the door. I personally know of close to a dozen of my own CFI friends that passed on us to go somewhere else solely on the fact that our minimums were so high. With the news this week, they now regret that decision.

I'll start worrying when we are canceling dozens of flights due to staffing. Initially we should be fine… late summer/early fall may be another story, but only time will tell.

Riverside
02-23-2015, 07:10 AM
Checkairman aside, the numbers look daunting. We will have about 600 line pilots in a few months. Classes are full through March I believe. And how many airplanes are we supposed to be getting? The pool of pilots out there is quickly drying up. I very much hope our company can staff this, but I'm just not sure the numbers support this. Worst case scenario is we staff what we can I guess.

Omg dude get off your anti depressant and start enjoying the flying. Sick and tired of your whiny attitude.

CBreezy
02-23-2015, 07:14 AM
Omg dude get off your anti depressant and start enjoying the flying. Sick and tired of your whiny attitude.

I don't know if telling Eeyore to stop taking anti-depressants is not sound medical advice.

http://www.quickmeme.com/Eeyore

Riverside
02-23-2015, 07:16 AM
I don't know if telling Eeyore to stop taking anti-depressants is not sound medical advice.

http://www.quickmeme.com/Eeyore

That's a good point. See a doctor first before getting off any kind of medication

tom11011
02-23-2015, 07:18 AM
Also, I think somewhere buried in there the SIC has to have occurred since the signing of the law INCORRECT or maybe it was any active Captains at the signing of the law were exempt CORRECT.

Were you employed as a 121 PIC on (not before) July 31, 2013? If so then your PIC time meets the 121 requirement.

If not, count the following

Per 121.436(c) You may count up to 500 hours of time accumulated as the aircraft commander in a multiengine, turbine powered, fixed wing aircraft requiring more than one pilot.

FAR Part 121 SIC time any

FAR Part 135.243(a)(1) PIC time
To apply 135 PIC time toward upgrade, you must have been serving as the PIC, in a passenger carrying operation, in a turbojet airplane with 10 or more passenger seats (not crewmember seats). No other 135 time counts.

FAR Part 91.1053(a)(2)(i) PIC time
Must have been PIC on a multiengine, turbine powered, fixed wing aircraft requiring an ATP certificate and applicable type rating. 91.1053 falls under subpart K for Fractional outfits only.

CBreezy
02-23-2015, 07:23 AM
Were you employed as a 121 PIC on (not before) July 31, 2013? If so then your PIC time meets the 121 requirement.

If not, count the following

Per 121.436(c) You may count up to 500 hours of time accumulated as the aircraft commander in a multiengine, turbine powered, fixed wing aircraft requiring more than one pilot.

FAR Part 121 SIC time any

FAR Part 135.243(a)(1) PIC time
To apply 135 PIC time toward upgrade, you must have been serving as the PIC, in a passenger carrying operation, in a turbojet airplane with 10 or more passenger seats (not crewmember seats). No other 135 time counts.

FAR Part 91.1053(a)(2)(i) PIC time
Must have been PIC on a multiengine, turbine powered, fixed wing aircraft requiring an ATP certificate and applicable type rating. 91.1053 falls under subpart K for Fractional outfits only.

Right. So the point stands that there is no foreign equivalent cut-out.

Coneydog
02-23-2015, 07:29 AM
Omg dude get off your anti depressant and start enjoying the flying. Sick and tired of your whiny attitude.

Lmao...what dude??!! I think you have me confused with someone else bro. This is a forum for discussion. What I brought up is for rational discussion. From what I see you post on here, you seem like a complete douche clown. And you bet I would say it to your face if I knew who you were.

Coneydog
02-23-2015, 07:42 AM
We will need somewhere around 900 ish line pilots… which goes to show the hiring is on track. The last airplane doesn't show up for over another year. Dropping the upgrade minimums will surely help get FO's in the door. I personally know of close to a dozen of my own CFI friends that passed on us to go somewhere else solely on the fact that our minimums were so high. With the news this week, they now regret that decision.

I'll start worrying when we are canceling dozens of flights due to staffing. Initially we should be fine… late summer/early fall may be another story, but only time will tell.

True that. I also recommend pilots I know to come here. Time will tell, but I hope we can pull it off.

bjohnson09
02-23-2015, 08:10 AM
If it hasn't been mentioned, we've been told 27 people slated for the March 9th class. I know they are in the process of filling the 3 April classes

iPilot
02-23-2015, 08:17 AM
If it hasn't been mentioned, we've been told 27 people slated for the March 9th class. I know they are in the process of filling the 3 April classes

I can't say that sounds like they're having issues filling classes. April is over a month away.

I have a feeling things will pick up once the first CQFOs get out there and fly a PIC. Especially if the bypassed FOs open a few full time PIC slots. That would be the best advertisement TSA can give itself if the first classes get captain slots within a few months of hitting the line (even if the subsequent classes aren't nearly that lucky).

Riverside
02-23-2015, 08:43 AM
Lmao...what dude??!! I think you have me confused with someone else bro. This is a forum for discussion. What I brought up is for rational discussion. From what I see you post on here, you seem like a complete douche clown. And you bet I would say it to your face if I knew who you were.


See why can't you have that kind of attitude in your previous posts. And btw come up with better insult than a douche clown. You're a pilot for goodness sake.

Slapum Wtarsec
02-23-2015, 09:51 AM
One of the 27 slated to start March 9th.

MavAv8r
02-23-2015, 10:28 AM
If it hasn't been mentioned, we've been told 27 people slated for the March 9th class. I know they are in the process of filling the 3 April classes

That has to be the single biggest class we've had so far? I've been a little out of the loop on the training front, but it sounds like we have been putting a steady 25 - 30 plus through each month? If that is indeed the case..plus the initial numbers for March… I'd say we are off to a very good start on staffing this and/or more.

Case I
02-23-2015, 12:35 PM
That has to be the single biggest class we've had so far? I've been a little out of the loop on the training front, but it sounds like we have been putting a steady 25 - 30 plus through each month? If that is indeed the case..plus the initial numbers for March… I'd say we are off to a very good start on staffing this and/or more.

The first Feb class has 19 people and second Feb class has 14 (about 50/50 CQFO/FO), and the FIRST Mar class has 27, second class unk so far. I guess that could grind to a halt, but recruiting's program was working even before the 2500 hr upgrade announcement.

Somebody asked earlier about training completion- it seems that the only way to fail is to throw a wild, drunken party and trash the hotel. Several got pink slips for that recently. A few others flagged their oral, but got do-overs (probably with associated PRIA paper work) and made it to the line.

bjohnson09
02-23-2015, 12:59 PM
That has to be the single biggest class we've had so far? I've been a little out of the loop on the training front, but it sounds like we have been putting a steady 25 - 30 plus through each month? If that is indeed the case..plus the initial numbers for March… I'd say we are off to a very good start on staffing this and/or more.

Yes by far the biggest class so far. Mine is currently at 19 and we were slated for 20. They have been putting through 30-35 so far per month. That looks to increase both for March and April (assuming they can fill the three classes in April). Everyone in my class has previous 121 experience, military, or corporate experience

Still a LONG way to go to staff all the flying.

Riverside
02-23-2015, 01:40 PM
Yes by far the biggest class so far. Mine is currently at 19 and we were slated for 20. They have been putting through 30-35 so far per month. That looks to increase both for March and April (assuming they can fill the three classes in April). Everyone in my class has previous 121 experience, military, or corporate experience

Still a LONG way to go to staff all the flying.


Not bad. Those are hiring numbers, when I got hired on in mid 2013. Glad we are still pumping out positive numbers.

MavAv8r
02-23-2015, 05:10 PM
Yes by far the biggest class so far. Mine is currently at 19 and we were slated for 20. They have been putting through 30-35 so far per month. That looks to increase both for March and April (assuming they can fill the three classes in April). Everyone in my class has previous 121 experience, military, or corporate experience

Still a LONG way to go to staff all the flying.

It's a heck of start considering only a few airplanes are on property, and we were already staffed to take 3-5 right off the bat. Like you said, a long ways to go, but it's going well so far. No signing bonus either.

trfreier
02-27-2015, 07:42 AM
Has anyone that is on the standing bid for Captain, but not the call for upgrade gotten the Bypass Pay yet? I got on the SB list this month so I'm assuming at I will get Captains pay in April. Would that be right?

CBreezy
02-27-2015, 07:45 AM
Has anyone that is on the standing bid for Captain, but not the call for upgrade gotten the Bypass Pay yet? I got on the SB list this month so I'm assuming at I will get Captains pay in April. Would that be right?

Contact your union rep. It is being tracked collaboratively with CS and the MEC. Anyone who is entitled to bypass pay is getting paid.

Av8tor12
02-27-2015, 12:01 PM
Anyone know the mins for getting hired as a CQFO? I've had my apps in for a while and haven't heard anything.

3530 TT
2180 Turbine
CRJ-typed

Not sure if they're prefer ERJ type...?

Riverside
02-27-2015, 12:29 PM
Anyone know the mins for getting hired as a CQFO? I've had my apps in for a while and haven't heard anything.

3530 TT
2180 Turbine
CRJ-typed

Not sure if they're prefer ERJ type...?

Well if you read page one you would have saw that it was 3500. If you go around page 15 it was dropped to 2500. If you go to trans states website it shows 2500. If you go to trans states pilot recruiting Facebook it shows 2500. Hope this helps.

RgrMurdock
02-27-2015, 12:43 PM
Anyone know the mins for getting hired as a CQFO? I've had my apps in for a while and haven't heard anything.

3530 TT
2180 Turbine
CRJ-typed

Not sure if they're prefer ERJ type...?

They sometimes respond with robo email. Check your spam page but the best bet is to keep calling recruiting until someone answers.

Av8tor12
03-02-2015, 04:59 PM
Any words on if Trans States is still hiring applicant for the CQFO? If so, how many do they need total?

Riverside
03-02-2015, 05:50 PM
Any words on if Trans States is still hiring applicant for the CQFO? If so, how many do they need total?

They dropped the cqfo minimums.

Av8tor12
03-03-2015, 02:36 PM
Are they hiring foe CQFO?

etflies
03-03-2015, 02:38 PM
Are they hiring foe CQFO?

Yes, still actively hiring CQFOs.

Case I
03-03-2015, 05:08 PM
Are they hiring foe CQFO?

But if you wait long enough, the program will close. Do you really want it or not? Go on their web site and make contact with recruiting and find out from the horse's mouth. APC can only take you so far...

Hou757
03-03-2015, 05:12 PM
Look how they just lowered the minimums. As a CQFO you will be reserve for a LONG time...

Case I
03-03-2015, 06:47 PM
Look how they just lowered the minimums. As a CQFO you will be reserve for a LONG time...

The numbers don't support your assertion. There are 35 airplanes on property, with 45 more due to arrive by April '16. So, to the contrary, all pilots hired in the near future will be line holders soon, and captains by this time next year if they have the hours and the desire to upgrade.

Riverside
03-03-2015, 06:59 PM
Look how they just lowered the minimums. As a CQFO you will be reserve for a LONG time...

Just because you can't hold a line or upgrade, don't bring your crybaby attitude here.

Av8tor12
03-03-2015, 07:06 PM
But if you wait long enough, the program will close. Do you really want it or not? Go on their web site and make contact with recruiting and find out from the horse's mouth. APC can only take you so far...
Im interested and have gone to the website and talked to the recruiter. Just wanted a different perspective.

Hou757
03-03-2015, 07:06 PM
Just because you can't hold a line or upgrade, don't bring your crybaby attitude here.

Get over yourself. Those hired today as CQFO's will have to wait until all Fo's senior to them upgrade before they will get a chance to hold a line as captain. As they get desperate for pilots these mins will probably be reduced even more making the wait even longer. Have spoke to a few CQFO newhires that are quite upset about what's happening there.

CBreezy
03-03-2015, 07:29 PM
Get over yourself. Those hired today as CQFO's will have to wait until all Fo's senior to them upgrade before they will get a chance to hold a line as captain. As they get desperate for pilots these mins will probably be reduced even more making the wait even longer. Have spoke to a few CQFO newhires that are quite upset about what's happening there.

I guarantee most CQFO on property will be lineholders by Sept. You've spoken to one or two people maybe.

CBreezy
03-03-2015, 07:30 PM
Look how they just lowered the minimums. As a CQFO you will be reserve for a LONG time...

They lowered the mins for FOs on property by 500 hours. That isn't a big change.

flynavyj
03-03-2015, 07:32 PM
Look how they just lowered the minimums. As a CQFO you will be reserve for a LONG time...

If TSA is able to staff all the aircraft, no one will be sitting reserve for a long time...whether you're a CQFO new hire, or a regular new hire. If you're already in the system, you'll upgrade to captain quickly...for the CQFO's you'll be bumped down time and time again, so getting a good line will be incredibly difficult...but it will eventually happen...and if not, you'll hopefully acquire enough Turbine PIC to be competitive to move on before it gets really desperate.

Celeste
03-03-2015, 07:34 PM
Get over yourself. Those hired today as CQFO's will have to wait until all Fo's senior to them upgrade before they will get a chance to hold a line as captain. As they get desperate for pilots these mins will probably be reduced even more making the wait even longer. Have spoke to a few CQFO newhires that are quite upset about what's happening there.

They can't lower mins much more. Even without any insurance mins, the law requires 1000 hours of 121 time to be pic. For the vast majority of pilots that is a bare minimum of 2500 hours (1500 hours to get ATP + 1000 as an FO). And for military and college aviation program grads 1750 and 2000/2250 respectively are the ABSOLUTE minimums.

Riverside
03-03-2015, 09:16 PM
Get over yourself. Those hired today as CQFO's will have to wait until all Fo's senior to them upgrade before they will get a chance to hold a line as captain. As they get desperate for pilots these mins will probably be reduced even more making the wait even longer. Have spoke to a few CQFO newhires that are quite upset about what's happening there.
Maybe the new cqfo you talked to don't understand the contract or don't understand what lowering of the minimums really mean.

But I will get over myself when you come back in this thread in maybe a few months. Find that you're actually wrong about everything. And you realize that you spent all this time bashing trans states for no reason. Then admit it to everyone, that you were actually wrong. Then see that cqfo are actually line holder captains.

Case I
03-04-2015, 05:11 PM
Im interested and have gone to the website and talked to the recruiter. Just wanted a different perspective.

Ok, my bad.:(
Look, the perspective is - almost nobody describes any regional as a good deal, but as regionals go, TSA is not a bad place. Signed contracts for expansion combined with attrition to majors will upgrade you within a year and half. Labor and management are getting along well. They are implementing a Preferential Bidding System. Do we have the best contract - Nevets says no :eek: and I agree, but of those with better contracts most are not growing and have arguably worse corporate relations/climate.
As for CQFO, even if you never spend a day in the left seat, you'll be making almost 2x what you would as a straight FO, and you'll upgrade to CA soon anyway.

PilotCrusader
03-04-2015, 05:53 PM
Ok, my bad.:(
Look, the perspective is - almost nobody describes any regional as a good deal, but as regionals go, TSA is not a bad place. Signed contracts for expansion combined with attrition to majors will upgrade you within a year and half. Labor and management are getting along well. They are implementing a Preferential Bidding System. Do we have the best contract - Nevets says no :eek: and I agree, but of those with better contracts most are not growing and have arguably worse corporate relations/climate.
As for CQFO, even if you never spend a day in the left seat, you'll be making almost 2x what you would as a straight FO, and you'll upgrade to CA soon anyway.

You say "they are implementing a PBS system" like it is a good thing.

ILOVELAMP
03-04-2015, 05:53 PM
Looks like the first six CQFOs are Bidding captain reserve lines in IAD.

etflies
03-04-2015, 06:16 PM
You say "they are implementing a PBS system" like it is a good thing.

Seconded, unless there are big time protections in place for the pilot group regarding PBS.