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View Full Version : Skywest vs PSA


Theswede
02-05-2015, 05:37 PM
Hello,

I'm very active and read a lot on this forum, but I rarely write since I'm currently not flying for airline. I got offers from both Skywest and PSA but can't really make up my mind, and would like to ask for your advice. I'm interested in Compass but they haven't called.

Skywest pros: good training, better FO pay, seems to be a good group of people, more west coast (I currently live in LA, might move if I have to).

Cons: slow upgrade, by reading the Skywest-thread it appears that schedule/QOL is getting worse.

PSA pros: seems to be doing well filling classes, quick upgrade, short reserve, being able to drop trips to 65h and then pick up premium pay.

Cons: gotta move across country/commute with no chance of west coast base, worse place to get stuck at as FO than Skywest, appears to have lots of people fail the training (not sure how true last one is).


Input?


tothebigblue
02-05-2015, 05:43 PM
Hello,

I'm very active and read a lot on this forum, but I rarely write since I'm currently not flying for airline. I got offers from both Skywest and PSA but can't really make up my mind, and would like to ask for your advice. I'm interested in Compass but they haven't called.

Skywest pros: good training, better FO pay, seems to be a good group of people, more west coast (I currently live in LA, might move if I have to).

Cons: slow upgrade, by reading the Skywest-thread it appears that schedule/QOL is getting worse.

PSA pros: seems to be doing well filling classes, quick upgrade, short reserve, being able to drop trips to 65h and then pick up premium pay.

Cons: gotta move across country/commute with no chance of west coast base, worse place to get stuck at as FO than Skywest, appears to have lots of people fail the training (not sure how true last one is).


Input?

you still have to get 1000 jet before you can do ANYTHING upgrade wise. sure PSA you can get that but where will the company be when you actually get to the 1000? Wait for the compass call. Living in base and being at an airline trumps commuting plus you'll be part of the union which is better than being non union and not protected. you can drop trips at any airline, how you're paid and how you can drop and pick up trips as well as bid is big deal. good thing with this time in the industry is you can "shop" for an airline. i like having 3 options to compare rather going on a 50/50 shot. best of luck and keep applying everywhere!

prior121
02-05-2015, 05:44 PM
Better question, do you want to be a regional FO in 5 years or a mainline FO at American Airlines?


Bzzt
02-05-2015, 05:47 PM
Better question, do you want to be a regional FO in 5 years or a mainline FO at American Airlines?

Don't be disingenuous. A PSA new hire will not be at AA in 5 years unless they make it in the front door.

rickair7777
02-05-2015, 05:49 PM
Compass.
......

tothebigblue
02-05-2015, 05:51 PM
Better question, do you want to be a regional FO in 5 years or a mainline FO at American Airlines?

then go to envoy....

Bzzt
02-05-2015, 05:54 PM
then go to envoy....

Talk about bad advice.

ThreeStripe
02-05-2015, 05:57 PM
I congratulate you for doing your homework. You need to ask yourself this question: "if I do get stuck at this place for the rest of my career, is this a good place to be?". You do not know what the future will hold and you do not want to start over at first year pay. Pick the place that offers the best QOL today (it may change in the future, but without a crystal ball, you have to go with what you see today). My advice is Sky West, but you need to decide.

Theswede
02-05-2015, 06:03 PM
you still have to get 1000 jet before you can do ANYTHING upgrade wise. sure PSA you can get that but where will the company be when you actually get to the 1000? Wait for the compass call. Living in base and being at an airline trumps commuting plus you'll be part of the union which is better than being non union and not protected. you can drop trips at any airline, how you're paid and how you can drop and pick up trips as well as bid is big deal. good thing with this time in the industry is you can "shop" for an airline. i like having 3 options to compare rather going on a 50/50 shot. best of luck and keep applying everywhere!
That is correct. I do not have any previous 121 experience so I'd need the 1000 before upgrade. To be honest I'm not sure I'd be comfortable upgrading that fast anyway..

Better question, do you want to be a regional FO in 5 years or a mainline FO at American Airlines?
My long term goal is to get to the majors.
Compass.
......
I recognize you from the Skywest-thread. Do you see things getting even worse from here? Do you think staffing problem will add to this?

I congratulate you for doing your homework. You need to ask yourself this question: "if I do get stuck at this place for the rest of my career, is this a good place to be?". You do not know what the future will hold and you do not want to start over at first year pay. Pick the place that offers the best QOL today (it may change in the future, but without a crystal ball, you have to go with what you see today). My advice is Sky West, but you need to decide.
Thank you, I truly appreciate your advice.

motormadness
02-05-2015, 06:07 PM
Attention FaceBiter: Please inform the OP how SkyWest is the best because you are the best and everybody wants to be like you.

Thank You

FlyinSailor
02-05-2015, 06:22 PM
Theswede,

My thoughts on this are based on your goal of getting a job with a major. Whatever company will provide you more flight time per year would be my choice. With more flight time comes more experience.

Plus, a company which you can upgrade in a couple of years will be a positive. Not saying you necessarily need TPIC time for a bigger airline, but it is rewarding on a professional level.

Working for an airline where you spend lots of time wishing you were airborne will get you paid. However, it will slow down your career progression.

Of course you have to do what is best for your scenario. Taking jobs to achieve your goal may come with risks. How long are you willing to wait for Compass to call?

fastback
02-05-2015, 06:26 PM
If you're old enough (53 or older) to maybe become a regional lifer, than I'd consider Skywest. Otherwise I'd go with PSA.

And you might want to see if you can defer your class date a few months to see if Compass comes through. They have good movement, an LA base, and are I think a better operation than PSA.

Theswede
02-05-2015, 06:26 PM
Theswede,

My thoughts on this are based on your goal of getting a job with a major. Whatever company will provide you more flight time per year would be my choice. With more flight time comes more experience.

Plus, a company which you can upgrade in a couple of years will be a positive. Not saying you necessarily need TPIC time for a bigger airline, but it is rewarding on a professional level.

Working for an airline where you spend lots of time wishing you were airborne will get you paid. However, it will slow down your career progression.

Of course you have to do what is best for your scenario. Taking jobs to achieve your goal may come with risks. How long are you willing to wait for Compass to call?
I'd prefer to not wait. Is it a bad idea to go to one regional until Compass calls, and keep the application updated?

FlyinSailor
02-05-2015, 06:40 PM
I'd prefer to not wait. Is it a bad idea to go to one regional until Compass calls, and keep the application updated?

I do not know about lateral movements, but it seems to be common from what I have read on APC. Probably doesn't hurt if LAX is your goal. Just know that you will suffer twice going through 1st year FO pay if you do that. To top it off, then you are the junior guy again.

For me, I was called by Compass a day after I submitted my app. I say that because if a regional doesn't call right away, then you might be waiting more than you should.

Some choices do not come easy, but it seems like you are approaching this with an open mind.

Best of luck with the decision.

CLT Guy
02-05-2015, 06:42 PM
Training at PSA does not have a high failure rate. People that do not belong here fail out, that is true. The last statistics that I saw said that somewhere around 85% of the people that start training finish and end up flying on the line. Of the 15% that don't make it, only a small percentage of those are failures. Some people take other jobs, some quit all together, some lose their medicals, etc.

Right now, with more than half of the new hire classes at PSA being experienced 121 guys from other regionals, it is not uncommon for people to get hired at a major/lcc before they finish training.

Farmlover
02-05-2015, 06:43 PM
Endeavor and you can make over 50k a year until you upgrade. Msp base wouldnt be a bad LA commute.

Theswede
02-05-2015, 06:53 PM
If you're old enough (53 or older) to maybe become a regional lifer, than I'd consider Skywest. Otherwise I'd go with PSA.

And you might want to see if you can defer your class date a few months to see if Compass comes through. They have good movement, an LA base, and are I think a better operation than PSA.
I'm between 25 and 30.

I do not know about lateral movements, but it seems to be common from what I have read on APC. Probably doesn't hurt if LAX is your goal. Just know that you will suffer twice going through 1st year FO pay if you do that. To top it off, then you are the junior guy again.

For me, I was called by Compass a day after I submitted my app. I say that because if a regional doesn't call right away, then you might be waiting more than you should.

Some choices do not come easy, but it seems like you are approaching this with an open mind.

Best of luck with the decision.
Thank you. Assuming you work at Compass, do you like it?

Training at PSA does not have a high failure rate. People that do not belong here fail out, that is true. The last statistics that I saw said that somewhere around 85% of the people that start training finish and end up flying on the line. Of the 15% that don't make it, only a small percentage of those are failures. Some people take other jobs, some quit all together, some lose their medicals, etc.

Right now, with more than half of the new hire classes at PSA being experienced 121 guys from other regionals, it is not uncommon for people to get hired at a major/lcc before they finish training.
Thank you, I appreciate your information.

SongMan
02-05-2015, 06:57 PM
Theswede,
I just sent you a PM.

Thanks

CloudShredder
02-05-2015, 07:04 PM
IMHO your cons seem to far outweigh the pros for PSA.

If you want to stay west coast, SkyWest is a much better bet. PSA won't get you anywhere near the west coast for years to come.

Skywest's FO pay is better, and that's something you can count on if the music stops (not that it will anytime soon, BUT you never know...)

Upgrade time may be a a few years longer than PSA, but IMHO that con is not as big of a deal as everyone makes it out to be. If you're not happy where you're working, then what's the point of the quick upgrade? I'd rather be happy where I work and have a longer upgrade than somewhere I didn't want to be for a short upgrade in hopes of getting on with a major. Something to the effect of, don't forget to enjoy the journey not just the destination.

As far as the SkyWest QOL issues, I'm not sure what to say here. I read all the negatives from people like CCB about SkyWest, but I have several friends over at SkyWest who just don't seem to be painting a picture about SkyWest even close to the picture that CCB paints of the scene at SkyWest. Every regional is going to have their issues.

In the end, you need to decide what is best for you.

Just don't get so wrapped up in the end game that you forget to enjoy the moments you have now. You'll never get them back once they're gone.

FlyinSailor
02-05-2015, 07:06 PM
Thank you. Assuming you work at Compass, do you like it?

No, I do not. Had to decline the interview when the gentlemen, on the phone, told me I would be based out of LAX.

Since I am currently living on the east coast and transitioning out of the Navy, I have no desire for that long commute. Maybe if I was younger and no family.

Skyhawk92
02-05-2015, 07:10 PM
I had an offer from Skywest and PSA (as well as a few others that were lower on my list) but finally chose PSA. The deciding factor was the fact that I live a 2 hour drive out of base, which is a hell of a lot better than commuting.

Moonwolf
02-05-2015, 07:17 PM
Go to PSA or sky west. Get a type. Quit then Apply to compass.

FirstClass
02-05-2015, 07:24 PM
I think its ok to leave if compass calls wherever you decide to go.

FaceBiten
02-05-2015, 07:25 PM
Wait for compass. Or consider Mesa...you can get Phx right out of training, or within a month, good movement, steady growth, no 50 seaters (except one spare).. Way shorter time to get off reserve than skw, good training dept, and a good pilot group. I wouldn't touch an airline with a bunch of 50 seaters, a very senior and expensive pilot group already having staffing issues, and already extremely slow movement. Things can change overnight, but no thanks. Great contract though! And psa is great if you are on the east coast and if they can staff all their flying. I don't see everything going as smoothly as they think though...

word302
02-05-2015, 07:32 PM
Wait for compass. Or consider Mesa...you can get Phx right out of training, or within a month, good movement, steady growth, no 50 seaters (except one spare).. Way shorter time to get off reserve than skw, good training dept, and a good pilot group. I wouldn't touch an airline with a bunch of 50 seaters, a very senior and expensive pilot group already having staffing issues, and already extremely slow movement. Things can change overnight, but no thanks. Great contract though! And psa is great if you are on the east coast and if they can staff all their flying. I don't see everything going as smoothly as they think though...

You forgot to mention the great pay and contract. Oh wait.
I'm not sure where the long reserve rumors are coming from. I was holding a line on the west coast after a couple months. New hires can get lines in MSP/ORD almost immediately.

FaceBiten
02-05-2015, 07:46 PM
You forgot to mention the great pay and contract. Oh wait.
I'm not sure where the long reserve rumors are coming from. I was holding a line on the west coast after a couple months. New hires can get lines in MSP/ORD almost immediately.

Glad FO pay is high at skw with the upgrade time there.

word302
02-05-2015, 07:50 PM
Glad FO pay is high at skw with the upgrade time there.

Should be dropping drastically, but that's not why I came here.

kfahmi
02-05-2015, 07:53 PM
You forgot to mention the great pay and contract. Oh wait.
I'm not sure where the long reserve rumors are coming from. I was holding a line on the west coast after a couple months. New hires can get lines in MSP/ORD almost immediately.

This is true. Buddy of mine who was in the late October '14 class is finishing up IOE and already has a line for March in MSP...

Flip69
02-05-2015, 08:40 PM
I'd try and get a Compass interview also if you want LAX. Skywest would have been a decent choice a few years ago, but they are starting to have serious issues. They just fired the money guy and in the last few months have ousted many of the top brass. A sure sign of trouble in paradise. Lack of new contracts, current contracts expiring this year and an inability to attract new talent to staff the present flying until they lose those contracts is making SkyWest a sketchy play in the next few years. And the EMB guys are going to be bumping into LAX and SFO until those bases shrink.

disillusioned
02-05-2015, 08:42 PM
IMHO your cons seem to far outweigh the pros for PSA.

If you want to stay west coast, SkyWest is a much better bet. PSA won't get you anywhere near the west coast for years to come.

Skywest's FO pay is better, and that's something you can count on if the music stops (not that it will anytime soon, BUT you never know...)

Upgrade time may be a a few years longer than PSA, but IMHO that con is not as big of a deal as everyone makes it out to be. If you're not happy where you're working, then what's the point of the quick upgrade? I'd rather be happy where I work and have a longer upgrade than somewhere I didn't want to be for a short upgrade in hopes of getting on with a major. Something to the effect of, don't forget to enjoy the journey not just the destination.

As far as the SkyWest QOL issues, I'm not sure what to say here. I read all the negatives from people like CCB about SkyWest, but I have several friends over at SkyWest who just don't seem to be painting a picture about SkyWest even close to the picture that CCB paints of the scene at SkyWest. Every regional is going to have their issues.

In the end, you need to decide what is best for you.

Just don't get so wrapped up in the end game that you forget to enjoy the moments you have now. You'll never get them back once they're gone.

While CCB may be a little extreme in his observations, he is not too far off from the truth. I would recommend some place that has a contract where you are not making gentleman agreements and a "promise" to do what's right. Not that unions are the end all be all, but I would feel better having some legal backing moving into these uncertain times. The company just admitted that our student body can't represent our group with a 401k improvements. If that wasn't a huge red flag, then I am afraid our group has their head in the sand. I considered that a preview as to what they will be able to do when things get ugly (mergers or list integration) I'm sure we will be okay.

FaceBiter
02-05-2015, 08:59 PM
Attention FaceBiter: Please inform the OP how SkyWest is the best because you are the best and everybody wants to be like you.

Thank You

I own you.

FaceBiter
02-05-2015, 09:06 PM
Is the quick upgrade still going down at CPZ? If so, that sounds like a winner.

Otherwise you can go to PSA and have people hate you and if you bust out of training you know Mesa is always waiting with open arms. Or consider SKW.... No 18 month upgrades there. However, you will be treated like a human. RSV times are short and things are speeding up.

Sooner or later all the rats who jumped ship to the bottom feeders (especially in the last few months) are going to be mighty disappointed when they find themselves as FO's at a junk company and keep chasing the upgrade missing the boat over and over again. It will be epic gnar.

motormadness
02-05-2015, 09:15 PM
I own you.

Tl;dr

Pro tip, I am not a piece of property. In fact, I live rent free right in your head. :D

For the OP:

I'd probably stay out west if I were you. If your only options are SkyWest or PSA, I'd do SkyWest. As an outsider, I believe the negativity that's been brought up is overcooked. It's still probably a good place to work and has a solid history and most likely a decent future. If you have 0 121 time, 2 years is quick and that would probably be an understatement IMO. FaceBiter can spill it to you.

So in summary: If you want the west coast, go SkyWest. If you want Compass and you already go to SkyWest, there's nothing wrong with sliding to the right and continuing on. Just when you interview somewhere else in the future, tell them.

As for the quick upgrades at Compass? Well I guess it depends on what you define quick. From what I've read and heard, they're done with the <1 year deal. 2-4 years? Plan on that barring something major happening.

RidinNFlyin
02-06-2015, 12:03 AM
Tl;dr

Pro tip, I am not a piece of property. In fact, I live rent free right in your head. :D

For the OP:

I'd probably stay out west if I were you. If your only options are SkyWest or PSA, I'd do SkyWest. As an outsider, I believe the negativity that's been brought up is overcooked. It's still probably a good place to work and has a solid history and most likely a decent future. If you have 0 121 time, 2 years is quick and that would probably be an understatement IMO. FaceBiter can spill it to you.

So in summary: If you want the west coast, go SkyWest. If you want Compass and you already go to SkyWest, there's nothing wrong with sliding to the right and continuing on. Just when you interview somewhere else in the future, tell them.

As for the quick upgrades at Compass? Well I guess it depends on what you define quick. From what I've read and heard, they're done with the <1 year deal. 2-4 years? Plan on that barring something major happening.

Upgrades were never less than a year. I do believe quick upgrades won't be happening for anyone hired in the near future. Still somewhat quick, but I'd plan on around 3 years.

I would also go to Mesa over skywest and psa.

Luv2Rotate
02-06-2015, 05:39 AM
Upgrades were never less than a year. I do believe quick upgrades won't be happening for anyone hired in the near future. Still somewhat quick, but I'd plan on around 3 years.

I would also go to Mesa over skywest and psa.

Go to Mesa over SKW? I hope that quick upgrade pans out otherwise you'll be hating life... BTW, what's the scoop with Mesa's 175s? Lots of guys saying United is less than pleased, what gives?

tothebigblue
02-06-2015, 05:42 AM
Go to Mesa over SKW? I hope that quick upgrade pans out otherwise you'll be hating life... BTW, what's the scoop with Mesa's 175s? Lots of guys saying United is less than pleased, what gives?

Didn't united just win a lawsuit regarding breech of contract with Mesa and their beloved 175s? not to mention they're canibbalizing 3 170s in IAH for parts....not very efficient operation

saturn
02-06-2015, 10:23 AM
Upgrades were never less than a year. I do believe quick upgrades won't be happening for anyone hired in the near future. Still somewhat quick, but I'd plan on around 3 years.

I would also go to Mesa over skywest and psa.


I dont think he was saying Compass upgrades were ever < 1 year. Its about 1.5 years at the moment with the latest award and dropping. What he is saying is that with 8 upgrades a week as planned, those who get CA classes this summer/fall may be here 1 year, possibly a little under a year. New hires shouldn't expect that for themselves.

Everyone here seems to plan on retroactive information. Mesa new hires won't be 1 year upgrades, neither will Compass. Skywest new hires wont be 7 year upgrades, probably will be a 4 year upgrade. Everything is cyclical, and depends on the era you were hired into a pilot group. Don't look too much into hire dates of the most JR captain, thats what the upgrade time was back when that guy was hired, not for you. Oh and one more thing, everything will look completely different by 2016.

PilotCrusader
02-06-2015, 10:35 AM
I dont think he was saying Compass upgrades were ever < 1 year. Its about 1.5 years at the moment with the latest award and dropping. What he is saying is that with 8 upgrades a week as planned, those who get CA classes this summer/fall may be here 1 year, possibly a little under a year. New hires shouldn't expect that for themselves.

Everyone here seems to plan on retroactive information. Mesa new hires won't be 1 year upgrades, neither will Compass. Skywest new hires wont be 7 year upgrades, probably will be a 4 year upgrade. Everything is cyclical, and depends on the era you were hired into a pilot group. Don't look too much into hire dates of the most JR captain, thats what the upgrade time was back when that guy was hired, not for you. Oh and one more thing, everything will look completely different by 2016.

This!!! I have been preaching this from my soap box for a while now.
To further add to it: airline recruiters, management, flight schools, and to much effect current FOs want to do their best to make that "sweet spot" seem so much bigger than it really is.

Generally if there is a fast upgrade somewhere, you have already missed the boat.

Like the guy above said: I'd look more for stability and a good contract.

I doubt SKW will be a 7 year upgrade.

Envoy won't either...not advocating them but it is a good example l, and being that I work here, I can expand: Envoy is currently a 7-8 year upgrade. 2015 is a shrinking year for us, but 2016 will experience a bit of growth from our bottom in 2015. We are losing more pilots to an automatic mainline AA flow than anyone else(compare our 20, soon to be more, per month minimum to PSAs 4). Envoy did not hire from 2008-2010. We also did not hire from late 2011 until 2013. By 2017, the upgrade at Envoy could easily be below 4 years, and it will likely drop from there. A new hire today would flow in 5 years, assuming the flow continues as it has.

Chasing a fast upgrade works for some, not for all. If I were you, I'd choose SKW.

FaceBiter
02-06-2015, 10:36 AM
Saturn pretty much nails it.

tinman1
02-06-2015, 11:10 AM
Hello,

I'm very active and read a lot on this forum, but I rarely write since I'm currently not flying for airline. I got offers from both Skywest and PSA but can't really make up my mind, and would like to ask for your advice. I'm interested in Compass but they haven't called.

Skywest pros: good training, better FO pay, seems to be a good group of people, more west coast (I currently live in LA, might move if I have to).

Cons: slow upgrade, by reading the Skywest-thread it appears that schedule/QOL is getting worse.

PSA pros: seems to be doing well filling classes, quick upgrade, short reserve, being able to drop trips to 65h and then pick up premium pay.

Cons: gotta move across country/commute with no chance of west coast base, worse place to get stuck at as FO than Skywest, appears to have lots of people fail the training (not sure how true last one is).


Input?

A couple of things on this...

1. Don't listen to anything FaceBiter has to say. Ever.

2. Pick two of the following:

living in current base (LAX)
good company
quick upgrade

After you've decided what is most important you can pick a direction to go. The tone of your post indicates that you're not too hot on the idea of moving/commuting. A short commute can be manageable for a lineholder but it depends on what is important to you. A transcon commute to a regional is a horrible idea, right up there with having unprotected sex with a hooker. I would not do that for ANY regional.

Right now it is a unique time at the regionals considering that pretty much everyone is hiring, so with that being said I wouldn't necessarily limit myself to SKW and PSA. Obviously it all depends on what you are looking for.

RidinNFlyin
02-06-2015, 11:47 AM
Go to Mesa over SKW? I hope that quick upgrade pans out otherwise you'll be hating life... BTW, what's the scoop with Mesa's 175s? Lots of guys saying United is less than pleased, what gives?

Don't get me wrong, I think Skywest is a much better company, but might be a little shaky with contacts ending, still operating a ton of 50 seat aircrafts. Mesa is growing fast and will continue as long as they can keep up with staffing problems. I love seeing the regionals suffer. Good for us pilots. Should be an interesting few years.

I would ultimately say Compass as well. But you can't wait for ever and I personally would not jump from regional to regional unless it was well within the first year. Do you have a 4 year degree? I know Compass is still pretty big on that. Haven't heard of many getting on without it. But I don't think they'll be able to keep that up forever.

WesternSkies
02-06-2015, 01:27 PM
Attention FaceBiter: Please inform the OP how SkyWest is the best because you are the best and everybody wants to be like you.

Thank You

You don't even work at expressjet anymore.
You were a babe in the woods when you showed up at ExpressJet.
You were impressionable at a time when all your captains were sour on skywest.

AlaskaBound
02-06-2015, 02:07 PM
Endeavor and you can make over 50k a year until you upgrade. Msp base wouldnt be a bad LA commute.

http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/biden_wtf2.gif

You've done gone lost your mind.

saturn
02-06-2015, 02:41 PM
If you're for sure staying in California, I'd choose Compass or SkyWest. They will both give you a base today in Cali with an outlook to stay that way going forward. Career progression at both can be attained and both are good companies with a generally happy workgroup. PSA is too far away of a commute, and that Endeavor best case commute to MSP would be depressing long term.

Squallrider
02-08-2015, 07:52 AM
Conpass is more junior on the west
Coast, although the 175 has gone junior in sfo that won't continue. Compass and skywesy are equally good companies but compass will have a quicker upgrade

Waitingformins
02-08-2015, 02:51 PM
Saturn is right about using captain doh, but you do want to get to 50% on the seniority list as quickly as possible. I eyed Skywest for awhile, but every mainline guy I talked to said get TPIC. Do not pass go do not collect $200 dollars, put your tools down and go get in the left seat. As far as "good" company goes, that only matters if your #1 or 2 from the bottom or top, ranking anything in the middle is splitting hairs.

To me, the crowd that doesn't place priority on tpic is the 9/11-age 65 victims. If I were in their shoes i'd think just like them, but I am not, you're not. Its all in context.

Luv2Rotate
02-08-2015, 03:34 PM
Saturn is right about using captain doh, but you do want to get to 50% on the seniority list as quickly as possible. I eyed Skywest for awhile, but every mainline guy I talked to said get TPIC. Do not pass go do not collect $200 dollars, put your tools down and go get in the left seat. .

With all fairness many of those old mainline guys are out of touch with hiring practices ect... They're relating from "their day"what it took. The recruitment bubble is much different now. Hence numerous FOs being hired with 0 TPIC

saturn
02-08-2015, 03:56 PM
With all fairness many of those old mainline guys are out of touch with hiring practices ect... They're relating from "their day"what it took. The recruitment bubble is much different now. Hence numerous FOs being hired with 0 TPIC

Agree and disagree. Not many normal FOs even become a blip on the radar at the big 3 or FEDEX UPS. It takes extraordinary backgrounds and connections to get interviews. If your goal is Virgin or Frontier sure, no TPIC wouldn't be a show stopper. But for now and the next several years, banking on not needing TPIC and/or a 4 yr degree and going to a major is wishful thinking.

Luv2Rotate
02-08-2015, 04:07 PM
Agree and disagree. Not many normal FOs even become a blip on the radar at the big 3 or FEDEX UPS. It takes extraordinary backgrounds and connections to get interviews. If your goal is Virgin or Frontier sure, no TPIC wouldn't be a show stopper. But for now and the next several years, banking on not needing TPIC and/or a 4 yr degree and going to a major is wishful thinking.

No, we've had 20+ FOs in our domicile alone leave for United/Delta/American. Some JetBlue and 1 to Alaska. All 0 TPIC, they had attended multiple job fairs.

Auzzie
02-08-2015, 04:09 PM
Didn't united just win a lawsuit regarding breech of contract with Mesa and their beloved 175s? not to mention they're canibbalizing 3 170s in IAH for parts....not very efficient operation

Go to Mesa over SKW? I hope that quick upgrade pans out otherwise you'll be hating life... BTW, what's the scoop with Mesa's 175s? Lots of guys saying United is less than pleased, what gives?

SkyWest Propaganda. There is no problem with the 175s. I don't get all the Mesa hate. But prove me wrong and show me the filing of the lawsuit and I'll take that back.

As for the original post, if you want LA then SkyWest or Compass would be the best choices. Both seem like pretty good places to work but I would choose Compass because LA is pretty junior right now.

bradeku1008
02-09-2015, 07:37 AM
After today's news I would choose PSA.

TheFly
02-09-2015, 07:55 AM
With all fairness many of those old mainline guys are out of touch with hiring practices ect... They're relating from "their day"what it took. The recruitment bubble is much different now. Hence numerous FOs being hired with 0 TPIC

This is true. What was yesterday is not what is today. I'd go where I didn't have to commute, can make a livable wage, not work for a bottom feeder and better quality of life. Based on the two options presented...SKW. SEVERAL FOs are getting hired with Zero/zilch/nada TPIC.

Utah
02-09-2015, 08:08 AM
I'd think the big question is how happy you'd be living on the east coast versus near family and friends on the west?

I'd imagine that you'd probably make it out to the west coast once every 3-4 months and only for a few days at that. Sure you could do it a little more, but it won't be easy with the schedule you'll have.

It'll be a lot easier to make the birthdays. holidays, and special occasions based on the west coast. You'll have to decide what's most important to you.

UnderPar
02-09-2015, 10:56 AM
Fully depends on your end goal. You'll hear all sorts of pro's and con's on this site.. Figure out what's best for you, and go. Don't wait.

FWIW, one of the airlines has significantly more movement than the other and it just got even better today.

Waitingformins
02-10-2015, 02:48 PM
With all fairness many of those old mainline guys are out of touch with hiring practices ect... They're relating from "their day"what it took. The recruitment bubble is much different now. Hence numerous FOs being hired with 0 TPIC

In all fairness.
1 I never said they were old
2 I am only talking big4, big brown, and FedEx
3 100 times the amount of guys with TPIC get hired than without
4 How much time did these FO's get hired with 6-7K jet?
5 A pilot hired with no TPIC and <5KTT is always holding another card of some sort
6 Every airline pays more to the pilot logging pic
7 The risk of missing a faster upgrade at PSA vs. SKW is a 1/10 the risk of getting hired with no TPIC
8 I've never heard you're statement come form anybody at a mainline just from guys who are at regional and still applying.

Like I said earlier, I made a decision from guys at mainline who are in the know. I may have f'd up, I may have jumped ahead there's no way to know.

In my opinion SKW was where to go a year and a half ago. Nothing was happening anywhere else and they were steady eddy. Today, Id look at Compass, PSA, TSA, Piedmont, maybe MESA maybe. Don't touch Go-jets or Republic with a pole. Try for Horizon if you want a career in their service area. As for the rest, it doesn't matter pick the one with the shortest commute to your house. Either way, don't short change TPIC.

ClickClickBoom
02-11-2015, 08:09 AM
Newsflash,
Every regional out there sucks ball sweat. That being said, you need to stay uncomfortable and hungry, that will force you to chase the major's application process. Live in base, short commute= comfortable, and that is a problem, every day you spend at a regional will equal (hundreds of)thousands of dollars lost at the end of your career. Get on to a Hulas owned/operated job, become a expert on SOP, upgrade get a LCA letter, and carpet bomb the majors for a job. I see on a daily basis, F/Os who have a cute F/A girlfriend, live in base and haven't updated their logbook in a couple of years, while the guy who hates his company is motivated beyond belief to "Get the "F" out". Short term pain equals long term gain. While you lay in bed, in base, with that high school educated F/A, the TSA pilot squats in the bush(KSPI) eating cold fish heads and rice and getting harder and closer to the brass ring. And when you get to the majors, remember who sentenced you to that regional hell come contract time, FUPM.

skypilot35
02-11-2015, 09:49 AM
Comfortable.....many OO guys / gals are regretting becoming comfortable.

kfahmi
02-11-2015, 10:05 AM
Newsflash,
Every regional out there sucks ball sweat. That being said, you need to stay uncomfortable and hungry, that will force you to chase the major's application process. Live in base, short commute= comfortable, and that is a problem, every day you spend at a regional will equal (hundreds of)thousands of dollars lost at the end of your career. Get on to a Hulas owned/operated job, become a expert on SOP, upgrade get a LCA letter, and carpet bomb the majors for a job. I see on a daily basis, F/Os who have a cute F/A girlfriend, live in base and haven't updated their logbook in a couple of years, while the guy who hates his company is motivated beyond belief to "Get the "F" out". Short term pain equals long term gain. While you lay in bed, in base, with that high school educated F/A, the TSA pilot squats in the bush(KSPI) eating cold fish heads and rice and getting harder and closer to the brass ring. And when you get to the majors, remember who sentenced you to that regional hell come contract time, FUPM.

So, pray tell, why are you still at a regional?

ClickClickBoom
02-11-2015, 10:44 AM
So, pray tell, why are you still at a regional?

Tell me you aren't that stupid....oh, where did you leave from, to sit reserve in a hotel you paid for, again? Truth be told, 9/11 and if a major doesn't call soon, back to a more lucrative previous career. So yeah, I dislike this job from a senior captain's seat, enough to leave, because there isn't enough money in SGU to keep me. I like my life away from SKYW. Sucks to be you....chasing a dream, that's really just smoke and mirrors. I have had better and worse jobs than this one. I am old enough to know that trading days of my life for a few dollars is a bad exchange, so how's that reserve in a hotel treating you?

P.S. I was employed by SKYW when 16 days a month was fairly common, dropping trips was also possible and the company was on the up and coming track. Then they started hiring vacation/retirement pilots, who didn't need the income and the slide began, want to know what the problem is, look in the mirror.

skypilot35
02-11-2015, 10:55 AM
Tell me you aren't that stupid....oh, where did you leave from, to sit reserve in a hotel you paid for, again? Truth be told, 9/11 and if a major doesn't call soon, back to a more lucrative previous career. So yeah, I dislike this job from a senior captain's seat, enough to leave, because there isn't enough money in SGU to keep me. I like my life away from SKYW. Sucks to be you....chasing a dream, that's really just smoke and mirrors. I have had better and worse jobs than this one. I am old enough to know that trading days of my life for a few dollars is a bad exchange, so how's that reserve in a hotel treating you?

This is a serious question and I'm not being sarcastic:

Why are you not getting an interview?
Masters Degree. I would imagine you have more than 10,000 hours. You've done the interview prep. Why no interview? Curious.

kfahmi
02-11-2015, 12:36 PM
Tell me you aren't that stupid....oh, where did you leave from, to sit reserve in a hotel you paid for, again?

Who says I left anywhere to come to SKYW? A guy can hold more than 1 job at a time (and, let's face it, holding a second job is virtually a requirement to survive on FO pay).

Truth be told, 9/11 and if a major doesn't call soon, back to a more lucrative previous career. So yeah, I dislike this job from a senior captain's seat, enough to leave, because there isn't enough money in SGU to keep me. I like my life away from SKYW.

Ah. Well, here's an idea. Instead of spending so much energy on your (admittedly entertaining) rants, think of how much more money you could be making if you channeled those energies into creating additional income streams for yourself.


Sucks to be you....chasing a dream, that's really just smoke and mirrors.

You would be right if I was a bright-eyed 22-year old with dreams of widebody command at a major. I'm not. I'm 41, and I went into SKYW with full knowledge that, at the very best, I might spend a few years as a narrowbody CA at a major...maybe. Or I might well have to retire as an FO at a major. But the thing is, I went into this with eyes wide open. If I can't fly for Skywest (or other airline) and also keep up my second career at the same time (in order to actually pay my bills and fund my retirement) then I'll just have to return to my previous life. We'll see how it goes.


I have had better and worse jobs than this one. I am old enough to know that trading days of my life for a few dollars is a bad exchange, so how's that reserve in a hotel treating you?


Reserve in a hotel is terrible, as you know. Fortunately I'll be home-based starting in 12 days.

P.S. I was employed by SKYW when 16 days a month was fairly common, dropping trips was also possible and the company was on the up and coming track. Then they started hiring vacation/retirement pilots, who didn't need the income and the slide began, want to know what the problem is, look in the mirror.

I'm not quite sure I follow your logic. You're saying that the reason you're not at a major airline right now is because Skywest is hiring pilots who already have other income streams and have accumulated substantial savings for them to live on while enduring first-year pay?

I wish you the best of luck in moving to the majors, or switching back to your other career. Whatever makes you happy. Because it's clear that working at Skywest doesn't make you happy. And as Steve Jobs famously said, when you wake up in the morning and ask yourself if you're looking forward to going to work, if the answer is "No" too many mornings in a row, then it's time to change something.

Judging by your posts, that time has certainly come for you. I hope DAL/AA/UAL/SWA/etc. call soon, and that the job is what you'd hoped it would be. I'm not being sarcastic, either. And if we do wind up flying together, seeing as how I'm about to join your base...I wonder if I'll be able to tell that I'm flying with the legendary CCB. (I hope not.)

fastback
02-11-2015, 01:28 PM
If your captain has an epic story on day 2 of how he finger bombed the FA the night before, it might just be him.

saturn
02-11-2015, 02:10 PM
If your captain has an epic story on day 2 of how he finger bombed the FA the night before, it might just be him.

Finger bombed? Huh? :confused:

skypilot35
02-11-2015, 03:33 PM
Finger bombed? Huh? :confused:

Really man?

ClickClickBoom
02-11-2015, 04:00 PM
Who says I left anywhere to come to SKYW? A guy can hold more than 1 job at a time (and, let's face it, holding a second job is virtually a requirement to survive on FO pay).



Ah. Well, here's an idea. Instead of spending so much energy on your (admittedly entertaining) rants, think of how much more money you could be making if you channeled those energies into creating additional income streams for yourself.



You would be right if I was a bright-eyed 22-year old with dreams of widebody command at a major. I'm not. I'm 41, and I went into SKYW with full knowledge that, at the very best, I might spend a few years as a narrowbody CA at a major...maybe. Or I might well have to retire as an FO at a major. But the thing is, I went into this with eyes wide open. If I can't fly for Skywest (or other airline) and also keep up my second career at the same time (in order to actually pay my bills and fund my retirement) then I'll just have to return to my previous life. We'll see how it goes.



Reserve in a hotel is terrible, as you know. Fortunately I'll be home-based starting in 12 days.



I'm not quite sure I follow your logic. You're saying that the reason you're not at a major airline right now is because Skywest is hiring pilots who already have other income streams and have accumulated substantial savings for them to live on while enduring first-year pay?

I wish you the best of luck in moving to the majors, or switching back to your other career. Whatever makes you happy. Because it's clear that working at Skywest doesn't make you happy. And as Steve Jobs famously said, when you wake up in the morning and ask yourself if you're looking forward to going to work, if the answer is "No" too many mornings in a row, then it's time to change something.

Judging by your posts, that time has certainly come for you. I hope DAL/AA/UAL/SWA/etc. call soon, and that the job is what you'd hoped it would be. I'm not being sarcastic, either. And if we do wind up flying together, seeing as how I'm about to join your base...I wonder if I'll be able to tell that I'm flying with the legendary CCB. (I hope not.)

I don't hold a LCA letter, so as to why the majors haven't called, good question, plenty other senior guys not getting called as well. Honestly the only reason I am still at SKYW is because of the possibility of getting called up to the majors, otherwise I would have left awhile ago. When it becomes certain they aren't gonna call, I am done. SKYW, in the past years was a good parking spot to wait out the hiring process, not so much any longer, it has become just another run-of-the-mill poorly run regional.
The problem is the vacation/retirement pilots such as yourself. When you come into a job at substandard pay rates that otherwise would pay a living wage, your savings and working a second job enables the regional/majors to pay crap wages, because you guys keep lining up to "live the dream". Sorry you and your ilk are the reason you have to have 2-3 jobs to live as a regional f/o. The regional that is currently paying a 80K retention program is proof that the model is broken.

kfahmi
02-11-2015, 04:02 PM
The problem is the vacation/retirement pilots such as yourself. When you come into a job at substandard pay rates that otherwise would pay a living wage, your savings and working a second job enables the regional/majors to pay crap wages, because you guys keep lining up to "live the dream".

Really? Hmm. How much were you getting paid when you joined Skywest as an FO? Why didn't you resist the urge to join the airlines at such a lousy wage, so as to improve working conditions for those who were captains at Skywest at the time? According to your logic, anyone who joins any regional airline at the current pay rates is somehow directly responsible for the financial woes of the senior guys at that airline...which is logic that surely escapes me.

And do let me know your initials so I can bid-avoid you when I get off reserve. Unless, of course, this act is entirely for entertainment purposes, in which case, carry on.

ClickClickBoom
02-11-2015, 05:33 PM
Really? Hmm. How much were you getting paid when you joined Skywest as an FO? Why didn't you resist the urge to join the airlines at such a lousy wage, so as to improve working conditions for those who were captains at Skywest at the time? According to your logic, anyone who joins any regional airline at the current pay rates is somehow directly responsible for the financial woes of the senior guys at that airline...which is logic that surely escapes me.

And do let me know your initials so I can bid-avoid you when I get off reserve. Unless, of course, this act is entirely for entertainment purposes, in which case, carry on.
I made 14K my first year at SKYW, I refused to come here when it was a no pay program. When I got hired the regionals were a couple of years max, when 9/11 hit I was short listing at a couple of majors, with a couple in the wings. Rolling the dice, on the airline business meant, at the time $350.00ish per hr, was possible, it was a gamble. It came up snake eyes for lots of pilots on 9/11. So now the top pay scale is significantly less, and neither you or I will ever see it. Demographics, if either of us were 25, it would not only be possible, but probable. This job quest has always been a gamble, only a few will get the big payout, while the rest will grind it out, hoping. While your dream was to fly airplanes for a living, this is the job that will make you immune to the joys of flight, they are few and far in between in the airline world. You come here and banter back and forth with the other new guys and when some senior guy comes on and puts his opinion into the mix, you get all "bid avoid", thinking that means jack to me or many other senior guys. I am not hard to decipher, you need not worry about the bid avoid, by the time you get far enough up the bid list, to bid my trips, I will be long gone or you will be back in your cubicle.Enjoy it while it lasts, the airline industry will take your passion for airplanes, put it into a burlap bag with a brick, like a litter of unwanted kittens and drop it into a deep pond. Keep your day job, you will need it.

skypilot35
02-11-2015, 06:12 PM
When the MCD closes and you're just doing your thing, are you still miserable?
If not, then I get it.
However, if you are miserable in this environment (your left seat environment) do you think moving to a major, commuting to reserve, sitting in the right seat pulling the gear for some other captain is gonna be any better?

If you are not miserable, you certainly come across that way.

FaceBiter
02-11-2015, 06:19 PM
I'm guessing kfhami (on RSV) and CCB are about to spend a whole lot of time with eachother........

450knotOffice
02-11-2015, 09:09 PM
I flew MUCH longer than CCB at the Regional level (at AE), then finally moved on to AA. I NEVER let the negatives of this business get me down for long, because I worked with many, many great people - both pilots and FA's - and, having come from the normal Monday through Friday work environment that most of the rest of American humanity is subject to for their entire lives - with the Cubicles, asshat bosses, TPS Reports, etc. - I knew that even the worst days at Eagle were better than toiling at a "real" job. Shoot me if I ever have to live that life again. It's really all about attitude in general. Defeatist, or Optimist. I knew plenty of the former at AE, and they were constantly miserable. It sucked to be around them. On the other hand, I've known many more Optimists at that same airline who, while they realized there were a LOT of problems at our company, still went out and tried to enjoy the job for what it was. And a BIG part of that was enjoying the time spent with so many great crews during trips. Many of us are still friends and connect on Facebook - even though almost none of us work together anymore, most of us having moved on to Major Airlines or simply retired. In fact, one of our former long time LAX based AE FA's who's now at AA started a FB thread about how much fun we all used to have in our old (now long gone) LAX base. We've been having great laughs recalling the stories of years past. We had fun!

None of us was under any great illusion regarding the pay or workrules we lived under, but we mostly made the best of it and tried to enjoy ourselves anyway. I know I did, despite all of the one-step-forward, two-steps-back periods in my unplanned extremely long tenure there.

Snickers
02-11-2015, 10:10 PM
I flew MUCH longer than CCB at the Regional level (at AE), then finally moved on to AA. I NEVER let the negatives of this business get me down for long, because I worked with many, many great people - both pilots and FA's - and, having come from the normal Monday through Friday work environment that most of the rest of American humanity is subject to for their entire lives - with the Cubicles, asshat bosses, TPS Reports, etc. - I knew that even the worst days at Eagle were better than toiling at a "real" job. Shoot me if I ever have to live that life again. It's really all about attitude in general. Defeatist, or Optimist. I knew plenty of the former at AE, and they were constantly miserable. It sucked to be around them. On the other hand, I've known many more Optimists at that same airline who, while they realized there were a LOT of problems at our company, still went out and tried to enjoy the job for what it was. And a BIG part of that was enjoying the time spent with so many great crews during trips. Many of us are still friends and connect on Facebook - even though almost none of us work together anymore, most of us having moved on to Major Airlines or simply retired. In fact, one of our former long time LAX based AE FA's who's now at AA started a FB thread about how much fun we all used to have in our old (now long gone) LAX base. We've been having great laughs recalling the stories of years past. We had fun!

None of us was under any great illusion regarding the pay or workrules we lived under, but we mostly made the best of it and tried to enjoy ourselves anyway. I know I did, despite all of the one-step-forward, two-steps-back periods in my unplanned extremely long tenure there.

450, great writeup! Attitude really is everything.

kfahmi
02-12-2015, 08:06 AM
It's really this simple, CCB. If you're so unhappy with your job at Skywest, then by all means quit. Go do something that makes you happy. Life is too short to waste it grinding away in a job that makes you miserable, whether that's in a cubicle generating TPS reports or sitting ready reserve in the crew lounge. It's really that simple.

You can go improve your situation, or you can just sit there stewing, wasting hours on this forum, blaming everyone else (management, new-hires, the FAA, who knows who else) for your troubles.

It's your call.

saturn
02-12-2015, 09:26 AM
I would say those vacation/second income pilots are LEAST responsible for the slide in the profession. They have what most pilots don't when times are tough, leverage. If QOL slides or a furlough approaches, they can voluntarily leave. When all your chips are in this career you are more desperate to walk over other pilots to get that (pay raise, schedule, flow, retirement, upgrade, domicile, etc) that you have banked on. Scope relaxation, B scales, whipsawing, its here as a result of others doing whatever it takes to either "keep theirs" or "get theirs".

tinman1
02-12-2015, 03:01 PM
Newsflash,
Every regional out there sucks ball sweat. That being said, you need to stay uncomfortable and hungry, that will force you to chase the major's application process. Live in base, short commute= comfortable, and that is a problem, every day you spend at a regional will equal (hundreds of)thousands of dollars lost at the end of your career. Get on to a Hulas owned/operated job, become a expert on SOP, upgrade get a LCA letter, and carpet bomb the majors for a job. I see on a daily basis, F/Os who have a cute F/A girlfriend, live in base and haven't updated their logbook in a couple of years, while the guy who hates his company is motivated beyond belief to "Get the "F" out". Short term pain equals long term gain. While you lay in bed, in base, with that high school educated F/A, the TSA pilot squats in the bush(KSPI) eating cold fish heads and rice and getting harder and closer to the brass ring. And when you get to the majors, remember who sentenced you to that regional hell come contract time, FUPM.

^^This. A few years ago I had several CFI buds getting hired at the regionals while I was out of the game with a medical issue. Some went to SKW and some went to GoJet. The guys at SKW seem to have pretty good QOL and post pics on facebook/instragram at very nice, exotic locations living it up. They love working there and seem content, and I'm happy for them. My buds at GoJet are sitting in the left seat and they hate the company, and they don't seem to be visiting destinations locations halfway across the globe. But they get to fly their @sses off.

It will be interesting to see who is better off in the long run ;)

ClickClickBoom
02-12-2015, 03:40 PM
When the MCD closes and you're just doing your thing, are you still miserable?
If not, then I get it.
However, if you are miserable in this environment (your left seat environment) do you think moving to a major, commuting to reserve, sitting in the right seat pulling the gear for some other captain is gonna be any better?

If you are not miserable, you certainly come across that way.
When the door is closed, it's not bad. That being said, the EFB will be used for a point of contact, reflows and notifications will now stare you in the face. Set parking brake, in time verified by ACARS, EFB notification of your reflow, extension ect will be automatic. You equate cynicism with misery, different things. I have seen the SKYW machine operate, and I have no illusion that the future will be any different than the past. 20 million dollar loss, Mike Kraupp, Treasurer of Inc. canned, things are gonna get serious, and our lives will be different, as they flail about trying to make it work. The breakdown of the losses will be very telling.

WesternSkies
02-12-2015, 03:45 PM
Who would pay for data to be notifiable?
I'm skeptical, but stuff happens.

ClickClickBoom
02-12-2015, 03:46 PM
Who would pay for data to be notifiable?
I'm skeptical, but stuff happens.

WiFi, all the bag scanners are on it. Why do you think SKYW wants the surface, partition and all the"aviation" stuff? SKYW wants every pilot to be on reserve and with this and no contract you will be. Your choices will be accept and do it or quit. All they will have to do is fire a couple of guys for refusing, give them 3 months of hearings/meetings and give them their jobs back with letters of counciling in their files and all 3400 will snap into line.

Concorde001
02-12-2015, 04:05 PM
^^This. A few years ago I had several CFI buds getting hired at the regionals while I was out of the game with a medical issue. Some went to SKW and some went to GoJet. The guys at SKW seem to have pretty good QOL and post pics on facebook/instragram at very nice, exotic locations living it up. They love working there and seem content, and I'm happy for them. My buds at GoJet are sitting in the left seat and they hate the company, and they don't seem to be visiting destinations locations halfway across the globe. But they get to fly their @sses off.

It will be interesting to see who is better off in the long run ;)
I think the answer is clear! :)