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tom11011
02-24-2015, 06:07 AM
This was on the ALPA daily email.
Trans States expects first MRJ in 2017; awaits scope clause relief | Airframes content from ATWOnline (http://atwonline.com/airframes/trans-states-expects-first-mrj-2017-awaits-scope-clause-relief)
Trans States Holdings said it begin taking delivery of “its order for 50 Mitsubishi Regional Jets” in 2017. Speaking “on the sidelines of the delivery ceremony for American Airlines’ first Embraer E-175 in” Brazil, Trans States president Richard Leach conceded that the MRJ90s the company “has on order will have a maximum takeoff weight (MTOW) that is higher than is allowed by scope clauses in US mainline airlines’ pilot labor contracts.” Trans States, the parent of US-based regionals Trans States Airlines, Compass Airlines and GoJet Airlines, has not decided “which major airline Trans States will operate the MRJ90s for.”


PilotLife4me
02-24-2015, 06:18 AM
[QUOTE=tom11011;1830907]This was on the ALPA daily email.
Trans States expects first MRJ in 2017; awaits scope clause relief | Airframes content from ATWOnline (http://atwonline.com/airframes/trans-states-expects-first-mrj-2017-awaits-scope-clause-relief)


Skywest also has a 100 orders for the MRJ 90. Do they know something we don't? Lets all hope that the mainline pilots never let scope limits allow this big of an airplane, it belongs at the mainline. Hopefully TSA and Skywest just change their orders to MRJ70s.

NVUS
02-24-2015, 06:27 AM
[QUOTE=tom11011;1830907]This was on the ALPA daily email.
Trans States expects first MRJ in 2017; awaits scope clause relief | Airframes content from ATWOnline (http://atwonline.com/airframes/trans-states-expects-first-mrj-2017-awaits-scope-clause-relief)


Skywest also has a 100 orders for the MRJ 90. Do they know something we don't? Lets all hope that the mainline pilots never let scope limits allow this big of an airplane, it belongs at the mainline. Hopefully TSA and Skywest just change their orders to MRJ70s.


Yes, they know something you don't.


Maingear
02-24-2015, 06:49 AM
They could also lease them to the majors.

Papa Bear
02-24-2015, 06:58 AM
Another step backwards for everyone if these MRJ90s are parked at any regional carrier. I pray to little baby jesus tonight, "Dear 9lbs 8oz little sweet baby jesus, please give strength to all mainline pilots everywhere to raise the middle finger in the face of any regional manager that even mentions scope". In all his little cute glory ...AMEN

IlliniPilot99
02-24-2015, 07:01 AM
[QUOTE=tom11011;1830907]This was on the ALPA daily email.
Trans States expects first MRJ in 2017; awaits scope clause relief | Airframes content from ATWOnline (http://atwonline.com/airframes/trans-states-expects-first-mrj-2017-awaits-scope-clause-relief)


Skywest also has a 100 orders for the MRJ 90. Do they know something we don't? Lets all hope that the mainline pilots never let scope limits allow this big of an airplane, it belongs at the mainline. Hopefully TSA and Skywest just change their orders to MRJ70s.

i agree with your philosophy but the MRJ is no bigger than the 170/175 ( i believe 70-80 seats)

snippercr
02-24-2015, 07:04 AM
[QUOTE=PilotLife4me;1830916]

i agree with your philosophy but the MRJ is no bigger than the 170/175 ( i believe 70-80 seats)

It's not the number of seats, it's MTOW, right?

Either way, 175s should not/never have been at the regionals - they should be flown by mainline because they do mainline routes.

Mercyful Fate
02-24-2015, 07:05 AM
[QUOTE=IlliniPilot99;1830944]

It's not the number of seats, it's MTOW, right?

Either way, 175s should not/never have been at the regionals - they should be flown by mainline because they do mainline routes.

So, what exactly defines a "mainline" route?

block30
02-24-2015, 07:07 AM
[QUOTE=snippercr;1830949]

So, what exactly defines a "mainline" route?

Hub to hub and 1,000 plus NM is a no brainer.

IlliniPilot99
02-24-2015, 07:08 AM
[QUOTE=snippercr;1830949]

So, what exactly defines a "mainline" route?

hub to hub or hub to city that allows only a certain number of passenger seat miles per hour

Mercyful Fate
02-24-2015, 07:09 AM
[QUOTE=Mercyful Fate;1830954]

Hub to hub and 1,000 plus NM is a no brainer.


So who is flying 175's from hub to hub?

CBreezy
02-24-2015, 07:10 AM
[QUOTE=Mercyful Fate;1830954]

Hub to hub and 1,000 plus NM is a no brainer.

They routinely put 145s and 200s on hub-to-hub routes. Does that make those airplanes a mainline aircraft?

I agree about the 1000nm part though. A 3-hour flight is a mainline flight. Anything over 1.5-2 really.

FlyingKat
02-24-2015, 07:11 AM
[QUOTE=snippercr;1830949]

So, what exactly defines a "mainline" route?

Whatever mainline scope says it is....

avi8orco
02-24-2015, 07:12 AM
.

i agree with your philosophy but the MRJ is no bigger than the 170/175 ( i believe 70-80 seats)

TSA and Skywest ordered the MRJ 90 series.....that's the 86 to 96 seat version

snippercr
02-24-2015, 07:16 AM
[QUOTE=block30;1830956]

They routinely put 145s and 200s on hub-to-hub routes. Does that make those airplanes a mainline aircraft?


Sure. Let's put them back to mainline.

Mercyful Fate
02-24-2015, 07:17 AM
What the crap is going on with this thing posting the wrong user on a quote?

IlliniPilot99
02-24-2015, 07:22 AM
[QUOTE=block30;1830956]


So who is flying 175's from hub to hub?

before coming to TSA...shuttle america almost did exclusive hub to hub

ORD to EWR
EWR to IAH
IAD to IAH
IAD to DFW
DEN to IAH

and tons more

freeflybreeze
02-24-2015, 07:47 AM
Had a SkyWest corporate officer in my jumpseat, not saying who but he's a big shot. SkyWest will never see the MRJ. Many moons ago when it was choosing between buying the CRJ-200 and the ERJ-145 they had both companies bring one to St George, this while knowing full well that they were going with CRJ's all along. That is THE BEST way to get somebody that's selling something to come down on the price. Fast forward to now, same trick, I even know how much it's going to cost to back out of the deal. To you and me its a lot but the cost saving will be realized with just two aircraft orders. Also long term plan here is to go with an all ERJ fleet, but that's WAAAAAYY down the road. And our airframe count is coming down too, there's been articles in industry publications so this isn't new news. Right now SkyWest Inc. has about 740 airframes and it will come down to 600 total across both companies. Canadair apparently sucks for supporting the 200's and the 900's are being delivered with a known AD that costs over a million to fix when the time comes up. But as we all know things are not set in stone when it comes to planning. Good example is, the EMB-120, same guy was tasked with winding down those three different times, he was always able to find a nice balance of spare aircraft vs. block hours and turn a tidy profit since they mostly went into high yield markets. Then Part 117, and the one remaining parts supplier charging a fortune for parts, and its over in a couple months. But then MRJ's could all of a sudden be selling for half off and then the metrics change drastically.... that's life!!!!

24/48
02-24-2015, 07:55 AM
[QUOTE=snippercr;1830949]

So, what exactly defines a "mainline" route?

Everything flown under the the mainline code like UA, or DL is a mainline route. Some are outsourced, and some are not.

IlliniPilot99
02-24-2015, 08:06 AM
[QUOTE=Mercyful Fate;1830954]

Everything flown under the the mainline code like UA, or DL is a mainline route. Some are outsourced, and some are not.

we all know that he was asking what should constitute a regional vs mainline route.

NineGturn
02-24-2015, 08:13 AM
As long as you guys keep showing up to work at these airlines they will continue to grow. Every time scope concessions occur people said it would never be allowed. They wont stop until you are flying narrow body 150 seaters and getting paid 20k to sit right seat in an airbus.

CBreezy
02-24-2015, 08:15 AM
As long as you guys keep showing up to work at these airlines they will continue to grow. Every time scope concessions occur people said it would never be allowed. They wont stop until you are flying narrow body 150 seaters and getting paid 20k to sit right seat in an airbus.

Then what do you suggest prospective pilots do to build time to get enough magic hours to get hired by a non-hiring major? We can't make people retire at 60. We can't suggest you sell your 3rd house and take a pay cut to avoid scope losses.

pete2800
02-24-2015, 08:16 AM
So, what exactly defines a "mainline" route?
Any route that was once flown by mainline pilots.





Yes, all of them.

So who is flying 175's from hub to hub?
Compass does a lot of LAX-SEA in 175's.

NineGturn
02-24-2015, 08:32 AM
Then what do you suggest prospective pilots do to build time to get enough magic hours to get hired by a non-hiring major? We can't make people retire at 60. We can't suggest you sell your 3rd house and take a pay cut to avoid scope losses.

It has nothing to do with hours needed. The majors have the exact same regulations as the regionals and the exact same hiring requirements to do the exact same job. If you are willing to work for $20k per year then that's what they'll pay.

Regional pilots are nothing more than mainline pilots working on a B scale.

Airline hiring minimums are solely a function of supply and the available pool of pilots. What do you think the hiring minimums would be at the majors if regional airlines didn't exist?

EV120
02-24-2015, 08:34 AM
E-170 was a mainline plane(Mid-Atlantic)before Airways sold them off.

Mainline pilots have a bad history of selling scope for preservation

NineGturn
02-24-2015, 08:38 AM
E-170 was a mainline plane(Mid-Atlantic)before Airways sold them off.

Mainline pilots have a bad history of selling scope for preservation

Yep...and we will continue until there's nothing left.

24/48
02-24-2015, 08:50 AM
we all know that he was asking what should constitute a regional vs mainline route.

And I was simply stating all of them if it using the mainline code.

etflies
02-24-2015, 08:52 AM
As long as you guys keep showing up to work at these airlines they will continue to grow. Every time scope concessions occur people said it would never be allowed. They wont stop until you are flying narrow body 150 seaters and getting paid 20k to sit right seat in an airbus.

Please stay strong on scope, and encourage your fellow pilots to do the same then. Most of us here in the minor leagues want to see you guys doing as much flying as possible.

It has nothing to do with hours needed. The majors have the exact same regulations as the regionals and the exact same hiring requirements to do the exact same job. If you are willing to work for $20k per year then that's what they'll pay.

Regional pilots are nothing more than mainline pilots working on a B scale.

Airline hiring minimums are solely a function of supply and the available pool of pilots. What do you think the hiring minimums would be at the majors if regional airlines didn't exist?

If it were feasible to get hired at a major and skip the regional game we would. For many of us this is the best way to get competitive and move on to a career type carrier. Essentially saying "don't work for that kind of pay" is akin to us saying "don't vote away scope." Easier said than done.

24/48
02-24-2015, 09:00 AM
Then what do you suggest prospective pilots do to build time to get enough magic hours to get hired by a non-hiring major? We can't make people retire at 60. We can't suggest you sell your 3rd house and take a pay cut to avoid scope losses.

It has nothing to do with hours needed. The majors have the exact same regulations as the regionals and the exact same hiring requirements to do the exact same job. If you are willing to work for $20k per year then that's what they'll pay.

Regional pilots are nothing more than mainline pilots working on a B scale.

Airline hiring minimums are solely a function of supply and the available pool of pilots. What do you think the hiring minimums would be at the majors if regional airlines didn't exist?

Spot on! There is no difference between an E170 and an E190, both are the same type. The regionals exist because the market was saturated with pilots hungry for a flying job. Management dangled the "Big Iron" in front of the mainline pilots for a few "regional jets" to be outsourced. We all know where that led us.

Here we are today......an industry starving for pilots at the regional level because the pipeline is full, and flowing at a high rate, in to the mainline. Over the next few years I suspect we'll see mainline pilots flying more of these routes while regionals shrink to the supply of pilot applicants. You may even see mainline taking pilots out of flight training. It's not like that hasn't ever happened, in fact, UA interns got hired straight out of college.

minimwage4
02-24-2015, 10:01 AM
The mrj hasn't even had it's first flight yet. It is scheduled to be delivered in 2017. That's at least two years from now. That might as well be a decade in aviation time. Skybus might have returned by then who knows what things will look like.

Only thing I've heard is they might take some seats out and certify it for weight that fits scope.

BoilerUP
02-24-2015, 10:08 AM
Remember when regionals were commuters, and "large small jets" were DC9-10s?

IlliniPilot99
02-24-2015, 10:34 AM
The mrj hasn't even had it's first flight yet. It is scheduled to be delivered in 2017. That's at least two years from now. That might as well be a decade in aviation time. Skybus might have returned by then who knows what things will look like.

Only thing I've heard is they might take some seats out and certify it for weight that fits scope.

i agree except it has....about a few months ago...but i agree

Mercyful Fate
02-24-2015, 11:06 AM
Any route that was once flown by mainline pilots.





Yes, all of them.


Compass does a lot of LAX-SEA in 175's.


Hey, i think it would be great to have 737's flying into BTM and CPR again...Delta is leaving so much money on the table by not doing so.

Psssst, don't ever go into making any business decisions for anyone.

minimwage4
02-24-2015, 01:37 PM
i agree except it has....about a few months ago...but i agree

No not yet.

pete2800
02-24-2015, 01:50 PM
Hey, i think it would be great to have 737's flying into BTM and CPR again...Delta is leaving so much money on the table by not doing so.

Psssst, don't ever go into making any business decisions for anyone.

I think you're having a problem differentiating the term "mainline route" from current mainline aircraft.

Your straw-man argument came charging into battle when you mentioned 737's.

Mercyful Fate
02-24-2015, 02:11 PM
I think you're having a problem differentiating the term "mainline route" from current mainline aircraft.

Your straw-man argument came charging into battle when you mentioned 737's.


Straw man? Are you some sort of liberal? Liberals loooove that word.

So, go ahead and edumacate me on the difference between a mainline route and a mainline aircraft. You know, in your terms.

24/48
02-24-2015, 02:22 PM
Hey, i think it would be great to have 737's flying into BTM and CPR again...Delta is leaving so much money on the table by not doing so.

Psssst, don't ever go into making any business decisions for anyone.

Who says DAL would have to fly it with a 737? Why not a 717? Why not a 190, provided DAL were to add it to it's fleet? The fact that it is a DL coded flight means it's mainline, right now it just so happens to be outsourced.

Mercyful Fate
02-24-2015, 02:27 PM
Who says DAL would have to fly it with a 737? Why not a 717? Why not a 190, provided DAL were to add it to it's fleet? The fact that it is a DL coded flight means it's mainline, right now it just so happens to be outsourced.

It is called demand and load factors. In fact, SkyWest is doing those two routes "at risk" with no guarantee of revenue. So yea, greaaaaat markets for a 717....

pete2800
02-24-2015, 02:35 PM
Straw man? Are you some sort of liberal? Liberals loooove that word.
Negative!

So, go ahead and edumacate me on the difference between a mainline route and a mainline aircraft. You know, in your terms.
I'd consider a mainline route to be a city pairing that is or once was served by mainline crews. Also, any route that is served by a CPA carrier at the request of a mainline carrier. SkyWest, Republic, Horizon, PSA... none of these companies did the market research and decided operating into BTM or CPR was a good idea. That was done by UAL/DAL/AAG/Alaska.

A mainline aircraft is just that. An aircraft operated by mainline. At present, the smallest of which seems to be the 737/319/E190/MD80 types. The moment a mainline carrier buys a new type, it's a mainline aircraft. What we have at present is a bunch of mainline routes being flown by regional pilots in aircraft operated by regionals. There's nothing preventing a mainline carrier from purchasing some E175's or CRJ's and operating them with mainline pilots.

The whole thing is just semantics, used by management to excuse the sub-standard pay and quality of life that is experienced by those working at contract carriers. The point of my earlier post was to illustrate the fact that "regionals" are nothing of the sort. Contract carriers are flying long domestic routes that are on par with their mainline counterparts. This is problematic from a compensation and career advancement point of view.

Mercyful Fate
02-24-2015, 02:40 PM
Negative!


I'd consider a mainline route to be a city pairing that is or once was served by mainline crews. Also, any route that is served by a CPA carrier at the request of a mainline carrier. SkyWest, Republic, Horizon, PSA... none of these companies did the market research and decided operating into BTM or CPR was a good idea. That was done by UAL/DAL/AAG/Alaska.

A mainline aircraft is just that. An aircraft operated by mainline. At present, the smallest of which seems to be the 737/319/E190/MD80 types. The moment a mainline carrier buys a new type, it's a mainline aircraft. What we have at present is a bunch of mainline routes being flown by regional pilots in aircraft operated by regionals. There's nothing preventing a mainline carrier from purchasing some E175's or CRJ's and operating them with mainline pilots.

The whole thing is useless semantics. The point of my earlier post was to illustrate the fact that "regionals" are nothing of the sort. Contract carriers are flying long domestic routes that are on par with their mainline counterparts. This is problematic from a compensation and career advancement point of view.


Sure there is something preventing them, and it is cost of operating those aircraft compared to what regionals can do it for. Besides, major "mainline" carriers don't want to be bothered with that kind of flying anyway. They know where the gravy is, and it is bigger planes with more seats, flying longer hauls.

TurbineTime
02-24-2015, 03:06 PM
This was on the ALPA daily email.
Trans States expects first MRJ in 2017; awaits scope clause relief | Airframes content from ATWOnline (http://atwonline.com/airframes/trans-states-expects-first-mrj-2017-awaits-scope-clause-relief)
Trans States Holdings said it begin taking delivery of “its order for 50 Mitsubishi Regional Jets” in 2017. Speaking “on the sidelines of the delivery ceremony for American Airlines’ first Embraer E-175 in” Brazil, Trans States president Richard Leach conceded that the MRJ90s the company “has on order will have a maximum takeoff weight (MTOW) that is higher than is allowed by scope clauses in US mainline airlines’ pilot labor contracts.” Trans States, the parent of US-based regionals Trans States Airlines, Compass Airlines and GoJet Airlines, has not decided “which major airline Trans States will operate the MRJ90s for.”


Also of note, the Cseries 300 is scheduled for its first flight in 2 days and is supposed to start deliveries within the next year. Who is republic supposed to operate it for??

galaxy flyer
02-24-2015, 03:07 PM
Also of note, the Cseries 300 is scheduled for its first flight in 2 days and is supposed to start deliveries within the next year. Who is republic supposed to operate it for??

It'd be ideal on lots of Alaska routes out of SEA and no scope issues?

GF

pete2800
02-24-2015, 03:11 PM
Sure there is something preventing them, and it is cost of operating those aircraft compared to what regionals can do it for. Besides, major "mainline" carriers don't want to be bothered with that kind of flying anyway. They know where the gravy is, and it is bigger planes with more seats, flying longer hauls.

There is definitely as cost advantage to the regional model, but I'm left wondering how much of an advantage it really is.

For example: SkyWest in 2013 had $59 million in profit on revenue of $3.3 billion. There's a 1.78% return. For this privilege, their mainline partners are willing to pay for all of the associated costs of having a management team and administration teams in place to run this company. So essentially, if you were to remove the senior and middle management and erroneous admin personnel, and push the aircraft over to the mainline certificate, you'd be saving quite a bit of money. You'd lose out on the hourly rate for the crews, but considering it would most likely go very junior, once a pilot had adequate seniority, they'd bid over to an existing airframe... so the years on the payscale past the first few would likely be unused.

There's a definite break-even point, and the margin is pretty close as it is. If the staffing at regionals gets bad enough, we might see someone try to find out exactly how much it costs...

Mercyful Fate
02-24-2015, 03:20 PM
There is definitely as cost advantage to the regional model, but I'm left wondering how much of an advantage it really is.

For example: SkyWest in 2013 had $59 million in profit on revenue of $3.3 billion. There's a 1.78% return. For this privilege, their mainline partners are willing to pay for all of the associated costs of having a management team and administration teams in place to run this company. So essentially, if you were to remove the senior and middle management and erroneous admin personnel, and push the aircraft over to the mainline certificate, you'd be saving quite a bit of money. You'd lose out on the hourly rate for the crews, but considering it would most likely go very junior, once a pilot had adequate seniority, they'd bid over to an existing airframe... so the years on the payscale past the first few would likely be unused.

There's a definite break-even point, and the margin is pretty close as it is. If the staffing at regionals gets bad enough, we might see someone try to find out exactly how much it costs...

If there were more money to be made by the majors flying these airplanes, you can bet your life they would be doing it. Majors flying these airplanes is a regional pilots wet dream, as it would be a quicker route to getting hired by a major.

CBreezy
02-24-2015, 03:25 PM
There is definitely as cost advantage to the regional model, but I'm left wondering how much of an advantage it really is.

For example: SkyWest in 2013 had $59 million in profit on revenue of $3.3 billion. There's a 1.78% return. For this privilege, their mainline partners are willing to pay for all of the associated costs of having a management team and administration teams in place to run this company. So essentially, if you were to remove the senior and middle management and erroneous admin personnel, and push the aircraft over to the mainline certificate, you'd be saving quite a bit of money. You'd lose out on the hourly rate for the crews, but considering it would most likely go very junior, once a pilot had adequate seniority, they'd bid over to an existing airframe... so the years on the payscale past the first few would likely be unused.

There's a definite break-even point, and the margin is pretty close as it is. If the staffing at regionals gets bad enough, we might see someone try to find out exactly how much it costs...

Delta's net income for 2014 was only 1.7% of total Revenue. So, does that mean they should close those doors too?

pete2800
02-24-2015, 03:26 PM
If there were more money to be made by the majors flying these airplanes, you can bet your life they would be doing it. Majors flying these airplanes is a regional pilots wet dream, as it would be a quicker route to getting hired by a major.

I absolutely agree. Given an endless supply of cheap labor, they have no reason to change. In an environment where entry-level people are looking for incentives beyond "They offered me a job!" to pick a regional to work for, a little creativity might be in order.

Delta's net income for 2014 was only 1.7% of total Revenue. So, does that mean they should close those doors too?

You've missed the entire point. The point was regarding low profit margins as they're correlated to how much revenue a smaller aircraft can generate, when compared against the costs of erroneous management teams at companies that don't really need to exist.... not about the low profit margin of the airline industry in general.

Swedish Blender
02-24-2015, 03:36 PM
You'd lose out on the hourly rate for the crews, but considering it would most likely go very junior, once a pilot had adequate seniority, they'd bid over to an existing airframe... so the years on the payscale past the first few would likely be unused.

You left out quite a bit.

Mainline benefits
Mainline FAs
Mainline mechanics
Mainline tampers
Mainline ground support

Many years ago, AMR offered the APA the CRJ-700s that were going to Eagle if they could make it cost neutral. The pilots could, but they couldn't get the rest of he above mentioned groups to.

FloridaLarry
02-24-2015, 03:37 PM
Scope is a mouthwash.

Legacy execs take a swig, gargle, rinse and spit it out.

It then contains germs.

horrido27
02-24-2015, 04:08 PM
E-170 was a mainline plane(Mid-Atlantic)before Airways sold them off.

Mainline pilots have a bad history of selling scope for preservation

The "New American" just got their contract. Looks like the MRJ is outside the scope.. Thank God!
But now comes Delta.
Will Delta Management want something to keep Profit Sharing for the pilots?
Will they ask/demand for the MRj to be flown with 88 seats total (giving it a Business First/EconPlus/Economy seating) at the regionals?

Time will tell. Delta is the next showdown~
BUT
Don't rule out the "other" players. Virgin America? JetBlue? Alaska?

On a side note-
That plane was built by Asians for Asians. Can't wait to see how Americans and The West fits into it!

Motch

NineGturn
02-24-2015, 04:22 PM
...A mainline aircraft is just that. An aircraft operated by mainline. At present, the smallest of which seems to be the 737/319/E190/MD80 types. The moment a mainline carrier buys a new type, it's a mainline aircraft. What we have at present is a bunch of mainline routes being flown by regional pilots in aircraft operated by regionals. There's nothing preventing a mainline carrier from purchasing some E175's or CRJ's and operating them with mainline pilots.

You do know who's actually buying these planes right? They are mainline planes being flown by regional pilots.

The regional airline system is a massive B scale for the mainlines. The more they can get away with it the more they will push it.

NineGturn
02-24-2015, 04:27 PM
Please stay strong on scope, and encourage your fellow pilots to do the same then. Most of us here in the minor leagues want to see you guys doing as much flying as possible.

Unfortunately it just doesn't work that way. The unions no longer work for the pilots.

If it were feasible to get hired at a major and skip the regional game we would. For many of us this is the best way to get competitive and move on to a career type carrier. Essentially saying "don't work for that kind of pay" is akin to us saying "don't vote away scope." Easier said than done.

Well of course it would take either every single pilot simply refusing to accept jobs at regionals which will never happen or it will take the unions making a stand and refusing to allow mainline to hire any pilots that ever work for a regional... also something that will never happen.

The best way to get rid of the B scale model for mainline that the regionals have become is to get rid of the enabler which is seniority. Kill the underlying system and you kill the business model.

How to go about doing that? It would take a concerted effort from the regional airline pilots to take control of their own unions back from the mainline and management.

sailingfun
02-24-2015, 04:44 PM
Unfortunately it just doesn't work that way. The unions no longer work for the pilots.



Well of course it would take either every single pilot simply refusing to accept jobs at regionals which will never happen or it will take the unions making a stand and refusing to allow mainline to hire any pilots that ever work for a regional... also something that will never happen.

The best way to get rid of the B scale model for mainline that the regionals have become is to get rid of the enabler which is seniority. Kill the underlying system and you kill the business model.

How to go about doing that? It would take a concerted effort from the regional airline pilots to take control of their own unions back from the mainline and management.

At which mainline airlines do the unions do the hiring?

24/48
02-24-2015, 05:11 PM
It is called demand and load factors. In fact, SkyWest is doing those two routes "at risk" with no guarantee of revenue. So yea, greaaaaat markets for a 717....

I understand demand and load factors, however, you have me with this market as I don't operate up there.

In general, there are several markets that could be up-gauged but major airlines may not have the fleet type to do it, and that is slowly changing.

FirstClass
02-24-2015, 07:49 PM
The best way to get rid of the B scale model for mainline that the regionals have become is to get rid of the enabler which is seniority. Kill the underlying system and you kill the business model.

How to go about doing that? It would take a concerted effort from the regional airline pilots to take control of their own unions back from the mainline and management.

That's easy, just get regional pilots to care enough to dump ALPA. Regional pilot are only concerned with complaining. Actually doing something about something is a completely different story.

80ktsClamp
02-24-2015, 07:53 PM
That's easy, just get regional pilots to care enough to dump ALPA. Regional pilot are only concerned with complaining. Actually doing something about something is a completely different story.

And just what would that accomplish?

NineGturn
02-24-2015, 08:40 PM
at which mainline airlines do the unions do the hiring?

all of them!!!

80ktsClamp
02-24-2015, 08:46 PM
all of them!!!

http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20081126173842/uncyclopedia/images/7/72/Orly.jpg

NineGturn
02-24-2015, 09:40 PM
http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20081126173842/uncyclopedia/images/7/72/Orly.jpg

The naievity never ceases to amaze me.

Chupacabras
02-25-2015, 09:09 AM
They will easily be cancelled and built for markets where scope does not exist, Asian markets can absorb many of those orders easily wit their growth.

Mesabah
02-25-2015, 10:12 AM
The big savings in regional flying is in the thousands of apps of regional pilots at the various majors. This significantly reduces the pattern bargaining power of mainline pilots by distorting the market value of a pilot to the downside.

NineGturn
02-25-2015, 02:16 PM
The big savings in regional flying is in the thousands of apps of regional pilots at the various majors. This significantly reduces the pattern bargaining power of mainline pilots by distorting the market value of a pilot to the downside.

Exactly right! By eliminating competition for jobs for all but entry level new hire positions, airlines have effectively eliminated the forces of free market competition for all pilot jobs allowing them to keep wages artificially low across the board.

It still amazes me when Delta pilots come in here bragging about their new contracts. It's as if they truly believe they are well paid just because they make more than some other airlines. 200k per year after a 20-30 year career investment is not that much money really.

FaceBiten
02-25-2015, 02:38 PM
Exactly right! By eliminating competition for jobs for all but entry level new hire positions, airlines have effectively eliminated the forces of free market competition for all pilot jobs allowing them to keep wages artificially low across the board.

It still amazes me when Delta pilots come in here bragging about their new contracts. It's as if they truly believe they are well paid just because they make more than some other airlines. 200k per year after a 20-30 year career investment is not that much money really.

Well, when you think about the difficulty of the "job" and realize most people do it because it's easy money and a lot more fun than a real job (ie sitting at a desk for 50-80 hours a week, staring at a computer, going to meetings, etc), and one that at some levels doesn't require even a college degree, making 6 figures, especially 200+ to "work" 15 days a month (including deadheads and other creative ways to credit more flying than actually accomplished), is quite a bit given the relatively low time spent actually working. People leave 6 figure real jobs to fly regionals. There's a reason for that.

BoilerUP
02-25-2015, 02:42 PM
People leave 6 figure real jobs to fly regionals. There's a reason for that.

That reason is those people are naive.

Divide income by TAFB (instead of hours flown, or even hours credited) and the "easy money" doesn't quite seem such a good deal.

FaceBiten
02-25-2015, 02:46 PM
That reason is those people are naive.

Divide income by TAFB (instead of hours flown, or even hours credited) and the "easy money" doesn't quite seem such a good deal.

Uh some people enjoy being away from home. Just because you are away from home doesn't mean you are working, or making money for the company that writes your check. And a lot of real jobs require travel as well.

FaceBiten
02-25-2015, 02:48 PM
That reason is those people are naive.

Divide income by TAFB (instead of hours flown, or even hours credited) and the "easy money" doesn't quite seem such a good deal.

And I don't think naive is the right word. They knowingly get into the industry and stay, knowing a 6 figure job is out there still. Clearly they have their reasons for doing the airline thing.

CBreezy
02-25-2015, 03:04 PM
Exactly right! By eliminating competition for jobs for all but entry level new hire positions, airlines have effectively eliminated the forces of free market competition for all pilot jobs allowing them to keep wages artificially low across the board.

It still amazes me when Delta pilots come in here bragging about their new contracts. It's as if they truly believe they are well paid just because they make more than some other airlines. 200k per year after a 20-30 year career investment is not that much money really.

So if you work in an industry for 20-30 years you should make more than 200k?? You realize that most Americans who are higher educated and have less time off than you will never break $100k? At 200k a year you're easily in the top 5% of HOUSHOLDS. So how is that unfair?

Mesabah
02-25-2015, 03:17 PM
So if you work in an industry for 20-30 years you should make more than 200k?? You realize that most Americans who are higher educated and have less time off than you will never break $100k? At 200k a year you're easily in the top 5% of HOUSHOLDS. So how is that unfair?No one who moves as much revenue as we do, gets paid so little of a percentage of it as we do. Except ship captains, of course.

CBreezy
02-25-2015, 03:19 PM
No one who moves as much revenue as we do, gets paid so little of a percentage of it as we do. Except ship captains, of course.

And truck drivers. And fork lift operators. And warehouse managers. And train engineers. And bus drivers. And subway operators.

flynavyj
02-25-2015, 03:52 PM
And truck drivers. And fork lift operators. And warehouse managers. And train engineers. And bus drivers. And subway operators.

Actually, i think most of those folks get paid more than you.

HuskerAv8tor
02-25-2015, 04:07 PM
That reason is those people are naive.

Divide income by TAFB (instead of hours flown, or even hours credited) and the "easy money" doesn't quite seem such a good deal.
TAFB doesn't count. We fly around lots of people who are on the road all of the time too. If you get into the airline business you know that comes with the job so no complaining about it on the back end!

BoilerUP
02-25-2015, 04:14 PM
TAFB doesn't count. We fly around lots of people who are on the road all of the time too. If you get into the airline business you know that comes with the job so no complaining about it on the back end!

Not complaining about being on the road as it is part of the job...but saying the only "work" an airline pilot does is block time is disingenuous.

I dunno about you guys, but a layover (ie. not at home) feels kinda like "work" to me....especially if you are close to the max duty/min rest limits and double-especially if you're beholden to a hotel with limited food options.

Doesn't mean you can't enjoy your "rest", but it also doesn't mean you aren't "at work" either.

*shrug*

chrisreedrules
02-25-2015, 04:17 PM
Not complaining about being on the road as it is part of the job...but saying the only "work" an airline pilot does is block time is disingenuous.

I dunno about you guys, but a layover (ie. not at home) feels kinda like "work" to me....especially if you are close to the max duty/min rest limits and double-especially if you're beholden to a hotel with limited food options.

Doesn't mean you can't enjoy your "rest", but it also doesn't mean you aren't "at work" either.

*shrug*

Each minute not spent at home is work in my eyes.

Dukeuno
02-25-2015, 04:22 PM
[QUOTE=Mercyful Fate;1830954]

Everything flown under the the mainline code like UA, or DL is a mainline route. Some are outsourced, and some are not.
This ^^^ every route is mainline. I really hope most go back. It will actually be better for all of us in the long run.

CBreezy
02-25-2015, 04:35 PM
Actually, i think most of those folks get paid more than you.

Railroad engineers average at $36K. Not a single person here is arguing that FO pay doesn't need improvement. The point I was making, if you've read what I said, was that $200k after 20 years is not poor pay.

HuskerAv8tor
02-25-2015, 04:50 PM
Each minute not spent at home is work in my eyes.
You're joking right?

DryMotorBoatin
02-25-2015, 05:14 PM
You're joking right?

Ain't at home. Ain't free to do as I please. On company time. I'd say he ain't joking.

HuskerAv8tor
02-25-2015, 05:17 PM
Ain't at home. Ain't free to do as I please. On company time. I'd say he ain't joking.
Seems like some people need to get out of the industry if being away from momma bothers them so much....let me get some tweezers!

DryMotorBoatin
02-25-2015, 05:28 PM
Seems like some people need to get out of the industry if being away from momma bothers them so much....let me get some tweezers!

I am where I am soley on someone else's behalf. Its not that I'm away from mama, its that I'm here not on my own volition but because work says I have to be. I'm here on an overnight because I have to be. It's not my choice. Oh...and while you're busy being a wise a**...my kids are going to bed without a dad tonite.

Mesabah
02-25-2015, 05:35 PM
And truck drivers. And fork lift operators. And warehouse managers. And train engineers. And bus drivers. And subway operators.
Not even close CB, it takes almost 100 locomotives to generate the same revenue as a 777. Aviation\aerospace is close to 20% of world GDP. Nobody out there is getting the shaft like we are.

CBreezy
02-25-2015, 05:36 PM
I am where I am soley on someone else's behalf. Its not that I'm away from mama, its that I'm here not on my own volition but because work says I have to be. I'm here on an overnight because I have to be. It's not my choice. Oh...and while you're busy being a wise a**...my kids are going to bed without a dad tonite.

Boo hoo. People who travel for work don't get paid more for traveling. Salaried employees don't get over time or more for working all weekends. They either do their job or get fired no matter how much time they have off. And yes, they get paid less than an average regional captain. I don't feel bad for you or your kids. It was your choice to work in a job that is 100% travel.

DryMotorBoatin
02-25-2015, 05:40 PM
Boo hoo. People who travel for work don't get paid more for traveling. Salaried employees don't get over time or more for working all weekends. They either do their job or get fired no matter how much time they have off. And yes, they get paid less than an average regional captain. I don't feel bad for you or your kids. It was your choice to work in a job that is 100% travel.
Just keep be willing to work for less. Keep telling yourself you're overpaid.

billyho
02-25-2015, 05:40 PM
E-170 was a mainline plane(Mid-Atlantic)before Airways sold them off.

Mainline pilots have a bad history of selling scope for preservation

I don't think so. MidAtlantic was the 4th WO for US Airways along with PDT, ALG and PSA.

They staffed it will Furloughed Mainline pilots and when enough didn't take the crappy job and pay they staffed it with pilots from ALG and PDT that wanted to flow up.

The pay was nothing like mainline. It sucked!!

CBreezy
02-25-2015, 05:43 PM
Just keep be willing to work for less. Keep telling yourself you're overpaid.

I think I'm underpaid. I'm telling you that it's worse in most other jobs in corporate America. I don't feel bad for any airline pilot being away from his family. It's the job. If you wanted to be home every night, you can be a salesman or manager.

DryMotorBoatin
02-25-2015, 05:54 PM
I think I'm underpaid. I'm telling you that it's worse in most other jobs in corporate America. I don't feel bad for any airline pilot being away from his family. It's the job. If you wanted to be home every night, you can be a salesman or manager.

So since I chose to become an airline pilot does that mean my time should have no value? What is the value you place on your time away from home?

CBreezy
02-25-2015, 06:01 PM
So since I chose to become an airline pilot does that mean my time should have no value? What is the value you place on your time away from home?

You accepted your job knowing full well that you'd be spending a lot of time away from home. You accepted it knowing that you don't get paid unless you are flying. You can't sign a contract and then complain that it is inadequate. I guess you can but you'll get no sympathy from me.

DryMotorBoatin
02-25-2015, 06:05 PM
You accepted your job knowing full well that you'd be spending a lot of time away from home. You accepted it knowing that you don't get paid unless you are flying. You can't sign a contract and then complain that it is inadequate. I guess you can but you'll get no sympathy from me.

So you place zero value on your time spent away from home is what you're saying.

DryMotorBoatin
02-25-2015, 06:08 PM
And since you don't think people should complain over inadequate contracts you disagree with any efforts for unions to improve contracts?

JamesNoBrakes
02-25-2015, 06:35 PM
Boo hoo. People who travel for work don't get paid more for traveling. Salaried employees don't get over time or more for working all weekends. They either do their job or get fired no matter how much time they have off. And yes, they get paid less than an average regional captain. I don't feel bad for you or your kids. It was your choice to work in a job that is 100% travel.

Are you certain of this? The bigger the company, the less likely it is they get away with having employees work for free. Traveling should be done during business hours, and if it goes beyond the allotted time, then over time or some sort of compensatory time. Usually, if you are on the company's time, you are being paid. If you work more than 40 in a week or 80 in a payperiod, you get overtime. Not sure what corporate world you are referring to, except maybe what you are used to. What you are stating above is only the "rule" for the airline industry and pilots.

HuskerAv8tor
02-25-2015, 07:38 PM
Hey Dumb and Dumber(CBreezy and HuskerAv8tor) how many days away from home and what pay do you two retards think is acceptable? You do realize that if pilots received $10 per pax split 60/40 we would all make significantly more including benefits. We are not overpaid by a long shot, nor underworked.
Not the point! We all make choices in life. If you decide to be an airline pilot don't ***** about being away from home. I've been through numerous deployments in life so I have no patience listening to a bunch of ******** complain about being away from home sleeping in a Sheraton in downtown Nashville etc. Especially when they chose to be in this profession. I'm sure many of you are the types that recieved participation trophies as well.

NineGturn
02-25-2015, 09:11 PM
"Dumb and dumber" :D

That pretty much describes the complete garbage spewed out by those two in the past few pages.

Makes me wonder what they are really all about.

NineGturn
02-25-2015, 09:31 PM
Cbreezy, huskerav8tr and facebitten seem to be of the attitude that pilots are well paid and have a low stress and easy job.

They must have very low expectations in life, have no understanding of the history of the piloting profession, and no interest in working with other pilots to make things better.

The way they got all over this together is just a bit weird. I say that regional pilots need to stand up and take control of your unions back from management and the mainlines and they jump all over me and other posters saying airline pilots have an easy job and are paid well enough for how little work they do actually do.

I really cant believe what I saw they had all just typed into this thread. I've never met an actual regional pilot in person with that attitude. Makes me wonder.

So here I am inciting pilots to unite and they jump in here to derail that with a bunch of nonsense. Hmmm.

CBreezy
02-25-2015, 09:32 PM
Are you certain of this? The bigger the company, the less likely it is they get away with having employees work for free. Traveling should be done during business hours, and if it goes beyond the allotted time, then over time or some sort of compensatory time. Usually, if you are on the company's time, you are being paid. If you work more than 40 in a week or 80 in a payperiod, you get overtime. Not sure what corporate world you are referring to, except maybe what you are used to. What you are stating above is only the "rule" for the airline industry and pilots.

My significant other works in corporate America and is salary. She is required to be contactable at all times and travels on weekends and holidays occasionally. While she can receive a comp day for that, she doesn't get paid a penny more to be away for a week at a time. I actually spend more time at home than she has days off. Whe she's on the road, she spends 12-16 hours working and receives zero extra compensation. OT is only paid to hourly employees.

To the rest, you can call me dumb, but I assure you I'm more educated than you. Just because I find it assinine to be complaining about not being able to tuck your kids in at night like this is some sort of injustice doesn't mean I'm dumb. Firefighters, police, and military often miss holidays and "tucking their kids in." I don't see them demanding to be paid more than $250k a year because their kids miss daddy. You signed on the dotted line knowing full well that you'd be spending half the month away from home. If you signed up thinking that would magically change then maybe you should point your insults at the person who made such a stupid decision in The first place.

JustAMushroom
02-25-2015, 09:36 PM
Any route that was once flown by mainline pilots.





Yes, all of them.
.
Yet another brilliant budding financial wizard. United should go back to flying 50 people back and forth from COS to DEN on a DC10 (or 767 now). Because it's a mainline route. Good grief.

Timma
02-25-2015, 09:38 PM
Yet another brilliant budding financial wizard. United should go back to flying 50 people back and forth from COS to DEN on a DC10 (or 767 now). Because it's a mainline route. Good grief.

That was pretty funny right there!

CBreezy
02-25-2015, 09:45 PM
Hey Dumb and Dumber(CBreezy and HuskerAv8tor) how many days away from home and what pay do you two retards think is acceptable? You do realize that if pilots received $10 per pax split 60/40 we would all make significantly more including benefits. We are not overpaid by a long shot, nor underworked.

Your math is flawed. Assume an average Segment ticket costs $100. You believe that you should make 10% of total revenue? That's laughable. How much revenue do you think goes toward aircraft leases, fuel, parts, maintenance, catering, cleaning, fees, etc? Then Add in admin costs like dispatch, scheduling, management, recruiting, training, insurance, IT, etc. On an hour flight, fuel ALONE costs $30/person (conservative estimate assuming 2000lb fuel burn and $5/gal). I'd imagine leases account for no less than 40%. So, that leaves 20% to split for all the rest? Start an airline and let me know how that works out.

NineGturn
02-25-2015, 09:50 PM
To the rest, you can call me dumb, but I assure you I'm more educated than you.

Seriously, What is wrong with you?

All this smells like astroturfing to me.

This discussion is getting too dangerous because you are afraid pilots are beginning to see the truth and become "educated" like you?

I believe you are educated which is why I think you're a complete fake along with your buddies.

NineGturn
02-25-2015, 10:01 PM
This is called an opinion. I'm sorry it hurts your feelings that I disagree with yours.

My feelings? I'm here to support regional pilots. What are you?

I fully believe pilots should lobby for better wages. I've said that 5 times. Are you there? Can you read?

Lobby? Lobby? Since when do airline pilots "lobby?" You're sounding like a PR worker, not a pilot. Besides you didn't say that. You said pilots should quit complaining about pay because they knew what they were getting into and they have an easy job and don't work that hard.

CBreezy
02-25-2015, 10:12 PM
My feelings? I'm here to support regional pilots. What are you?



Lobby? Lobby? Since when do airline pilots "lobby?" You're sounding like a PR worker, not a pilot. Besides you didn't say that. You said pilots should quit complaining about pay because they knew what they were getting into and they have an easy job and don't work that hard.

No. I said pilots should quit complaining about being away from home and that $200k is PLENTY of money for a pilot. There are a few people on here who can verify I'm one person and you're paranoid. Also, FB and I have argued many times before because I say bad things about Mesa's poor contract and he disagrees. Put your tinfoil hat back on.

Caveman
02-26-2015, 02:48 AM
I don't see them demanding to be paid more than $250k a year because their kids miss daddy.

Do you think you'll be one of the guys that makes Year 20 Captain pay at a Legacy carrier someday?

chrisreedrules
02-26-2015, 03:30 AM
Do you think you'll be one of the guys that makes Year 20 Captain pay at a Legacy carrier someday?

Unfortunately the truth is very few of us will. And if you aren't hired on with one of the legacies in the next few years you likely won't either.

slough
02-26-2015, 03:31 AM
Listen blowhard, I never said regional pilots were over paid. Do you know how to read past 140 characters? I'm grounded in logic. You live in a fantasy world where pilots deserve to be millionaires because they have to be away from home sometimes and get less than half the month off occasionally.

I've been at the airlines two years, never have had more than twelve days off in a month. I enjoy my job and am not complaining, but the only way to make decent money at the regionals is to work your tail off. For guys that commute and try to work that schedule, I can see how they would get burned out. Commuting is a choice I know.

3 green
02-26-2015, 04:02 AM
[QUOTE=PilotLife4me;1830916][QUOTE=tom11011;1830907]

Lets all hope that the mainline pilots never let scope limits allow this big of an airplane, it belongs at the mainline. [QUOTE]

Don't worry Delta mgmt. will throw a couple bucks an hour at the Delta pilots in return for regionals flying these, and the pilots will cave like normal.

HuskerAv8tor
02-26-2015, 04:09 AM
Cbreezy, huskerav8tr and facebitten seem to be of the attitude that pilots are well paid and have a low stress and easy
Lets put it this way....and notice my avatar when you read this. I have had some rough days with less pay. Now, so you're feelings aren't offended, I believe we are very highly trained and deserve more. Don't tell me how stressed you are though. This job consists of showing up on time doing the job we were trained for and going home.

Captain Tony
02-26-2015, 04:39 AM
Lets put it this way....and notice my avatar when you read this. I have had some rough days with less pay. Now, so you're feelings aren't offended, I believe we are very highly trained and deserve more. Don't tell me how stressed you are though. This job consists of showing up on time doing the job we were trained for and going home.

Lots of people have served our country. I applaud you. It however doesn't give you the right to be a bully.

in fact, very few vets I know bring their service up in order to silence opposition like you do.

Everyone has an opinion. Agree to disagree.

Personally, I think this argument is so dumb I can't believe it has gone this many pages. You two are just having a urination contest.

CBreezy
02-26-2015, 04:52 AM
Lots of people have served our country. I applaud you. It however doesn't give you the right to be a bully.

in fact, very few vets I know bring their service up in order to silence opposition like you do.

Everyone has an opinion. Agree to disagree.

Personally, I think this argument is so dumb I can't believe it has gone this many pages. You two are just having a urination contest.

His point is very valid for this argument. I'm sorry you think someone in the military saying "I had less days off, got paid less, and my life was more in danger" sounds like bullying. To me, saying I only get 14 days off and may only get get paid $200K in the future sounds like spoiled whining.

HuskerAv8tor
02-26-2015, 05:02 AM
Lots of people have served our country. I applaud you. It however doesn't give you the right to be a bully.

in fact, very few vets I know bring their service up in order to silence opposition like you do.

Everyone has an opinion. Agree to disagree.

Personally, I think this argument is so dumb I can't believe it has gone this many pages. You two are just having a urination contest.
Not looking for an applause just putting things in perspective. Some people can't handle it. With that I'm done with the conversation.

CBreezy
02-26-2015, 05:36 AM
Not looking for an applause just putting things in perspective. Some people can't handle it. With that I'm done with the conversation.

Perspective? How dare you! I get my facts from hearsay. When I was in high school, I talked to a pilot who said he made half a mill to work 6 days a month. Anyone who tries to tell me different? LA
ALALALA!

FirstClass
02-26-2015, 05:46 AM
Don't worry Delta mgmt. will throw a couple bucks an hour at the Delta pilots in return for regionals flying these, and the pilots will cave like normal.

The argument needs to be reframed from one of selling scope for more money to seniority preservation at mainline (more airplanes at mainline means seniority protection for mainline pilots).

JamesNoBrakes
02-26-2015, 06:08 AM
Lets put it this way....and notice my avatar when you read this. I have had some rough days with less pay. Now, so you're feelings aren't offended, I believe we are very highly trained and deserve more. Don't tell me how stressed you are though. This job consists of showing up on time doing the job we were trained for and going home.

Free training

Free college

In many cases, free flight training either in the service or with GI Bill

Free room and board

Free health care

Come on...I was military too, it was a pretty good gig.

Plus, when you transferred somewhere, you didn't start out at E-1 again :)

Slick111
02-26-2015, 06:26 AM
Someone should have squawked 7500 several pages ago.

Can we get back to the original topic?

If y'all want to change the discussion,....... start another thread.

Setpropeller
02-26-2015, 07:03 AM
The problem is that we complain and complain and complain but do nothing about the situation and yet we expect things to miraculously change, that's the definition of Insanity my friends. It's modern day slavery :( they are trying to make things as difficult as possible so that you either quit or go insane. This profession has been destroyed at the regional level. There is no adequate compensation which is ok as long as there is quality of life (multiple days off, commutable lines, productive trips). Now we gave in to more concessions and our quality of life is been taken away. Yet there's plenty of mediocre 2nd and 3rd class pilots getting hire by the regionals cause this companies need to fill the seats. Here's the F*&K part about this, the FAA implemented all this changes (1500hrs, 117 rules) all to help place experience and well rested pilots in the cockpit. I wonder what they'll do when a plane slam into the ground cause by pilot error:eek::confused:. Always have a backup plan.

NineGturn
02-26-2015, 07:07 AM
Lets put it this way....and notice my avatar when you read this. I have had some rough days with less pay. Now, so you're feelings aren't offended, I believe we are very highly trained and deserve more. Don't tell me how stressed you are though. This job consists of showing up on time doing the job we were trained for and going home.

Oh I noticed your avatar. So does that mean I can call you EightGturn? ;)

I'm not stressed when I am flying over the North Atlantic or the Pacific rim...bored maybe, not stressed.

What is your purpose with your trash talk trying to keep regional pilots in their place? Are you somehow threatened that regional pilots may prove to be better than you? Do you feel anyone who hasn't served is beneath you and shouldn't speak out or stand up for what they believe? It's just bizarre that's all. I'm not threatened and you can't bully me.
__________________________________________________ ____________

Getting back on topic....scope and seniority go hand in hand as I've said before. Seniority at regionals is just a massive B scale that management created using the existing age old system of seniority at airlines as an enabler. Scope is the tool they use to create the B scale.

Regional jets were initially designed with scope in mind and under the direction and guidelines of the mainline airlines, not regionals. The mainlines knew they could use these jets to replace the aging smaller DC-9-10, Fokker 100s, and 737s they were using at lower seat mile costs with an already established structure of low pay at commuter airlines that flew small fleets of turboprops in "regional" locations around the country.

Back in the old days before internet and advanced real time pricing designed to fill airplanes, the airlines operated under the philosophy of "load factors" and aimed to make a profit with about 60-70% full flights on average. So essentially a small DC-9 was similar to a 50 seat jet today in mission capability except the 50 seater is significantly more efficient to operate...especially on one hour segments.

Mainlines just realized that they can keep pushing this model and all these 70-90 seat jets can literally take over routes that used to be flown by 737s and MD-80s carrying the same number of passengers by pushing near 100% capacity. Pilots forget how much more efficient airlines are at selling capacity these days...that is until you try to send your family standby somewhere. It used to be a rare thing to have a full flight.

Mainline pilots fail to fully realize just how far they've sold out the bottom halves of their companies with scope. They are brainwashed into thinking regional jets (they're not even regional jets anymore) are "beginner airplanes" and not worth having in their fleet. They fail to see they are just a massive B scale for their own pilots to fly routes they used to fly at mainline. And the added bonus for mainline is they can hire new pilots much later in their careers so they may never even see 20 year pay scales before they retire and if they do it will be for less time.

Now that 50 seaters are being phased out and some airlines (Mesa) aren't even operating jets that small anymore the stage is being set to push scope even farther. The only obstacle that remains is the supply of low cost pilots to fly them.

This is why I say now is the time for the pilots (especially regionals) to take back control of their unions and force the airlines' hand. There has never been a better opportunity to kill this thing and force the flying back to the mainline.

NineGturn
02-26-2015, 07:17 AM
The problem is that we complain and complain and complain but do nothing about the situation and yet we expect things to miraculously change, that's the definition of Insanity my friends. It's modern day slavery :( they are trying to make things as difficult as possible so that you either quit or go insane. This profession has been destroyed at the regional level. There is no adequate compensation which is ok as long as there is quality of life (multiple days off, commutable lines, productive trips). Now we gave in to more concessions and our quality of life is been taken away.

That pretty well says it. I don't think the deliberate intention of management is to make life difficult...it's just sort of a by product of not caring.

Yet there's plenty of mediocre 2nd and 3rd class pilots getting hire by the regionals cause this companies need to fill the seats. Here's the F*&K part about this, the FAA implemented all this changes (1500hrs, 117 rules) all to help place experience and well rested pilots in the cockpit. I wonder what they'll do when a plane slam into the ground cause by pilot error:eek::confused:. Always have a backup plan.

Not sure I understand this. Overall the 1500 hour rule gives huge bargaining power to professional pilots to use against airlines to stop the madness. I don't think it fully solved the problem and I think there are additional steps the Feds could make to really force change and open the doors back up to experienced pilots out there.

If your implication is that the pilot shortage is forcing you to work longer hours that's not a bad thing. The normal reaction to a labor shortage is to try to get more productivity out of existing workforce but that only works in the very short term before there is backlash.

Now is the time for the backlash!!

vagabond
02-26-2015, 08:53 AM
Mod Note:

Instead of going blind and crazy trying to clean up this thread, I'll just close it. Try again in a new thread, but please stay on topic and don't get into name calling and use of profanity (patent ones or disguised ones).



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