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View Full Version : Solo in 25 hours. Ouch!


toeman9
01-17-2007, 07:46 PM
So I soloed after 25 hours. Bummer. I did a 141 course that followed the Jeppesen syllabus.
As some of you may know, I had that pain in the a$$ flight instructor who loved to talk about blabid,y blah, blah. My CFI told me not to worry about how long it took me to solo and not to compare with others, because I would just ďset myself up for failureĒ. I got booked hours, and I got chumped.

I compare my experience to that of Rosemary in ďRosemaryís BabyĒ, when Dr. Saprestien (the OB) convinces Rosemary (who is impregnated with Satanís child) to not read pregnancy books, nor compare her pregnancy with that of her friends or family since every pregnancy is unique. This practice, of course, promoted isolationism and didnít allow Rosemary to see how she was progressing next to her peers. Thus Satanís seed was undisturbed and born unto the earth.

At the FBO Iím at, other CFIs have shown sympathy towards me and have rolled their eyes at my CFI and his wasteful ways. The redeeming quality about the FBO Iím at is that the owner and chief have really shown me how to be a good pilot and not just pass the check ride. Unfortunately, the owner/chief is only available during Stage Checks.

70 hours later Iím approaching my FAA Practical Exam. I flew 3 Ė 4 times per week with my really lame CFI, who, I know, I should have switched after the third flight. Iíve been with one other FBO (had a drunkard CFI) and Iíve been by ATP (totally disappointing) and really like the FBO Iím at, with the exception of my dumb a$$ instructor.

I guess Iím not here to seek advice, because I already know what to do, but I just want to let you newbies out there hear my story so that you know when to say ďSTOP. YOU ARE FIREDĒ or figure out what is important to you. I couldnít bring myself to uproot and stop my training to find the perfect CFI. So instead I sucked it up and rode it out.

Weíll see how the outcome goes in regards to my End of Course. Perhaps I may even get to fill out an evaluation on my CFI.


DMP9679
01-17-2007, 08:17 PM
So I soloed after 25 hours. Bummer. I did a 141 course that followed the Jeppesen syllabus.
As some of you may know, I had that pain in the a$$ flight instructor who loved to talk about blabid,y blah, blah. My CFI told me not to worry about how long it took me to solo and not to compare with others, because I would just ďset myself up for failureĒ. I got booked hours, and I got chumped.

I compare my experience to that of Rosemary in ďRosemaryís BabyĒ, when Dr. Saprestien (the OB) convinces Rosemary (who is impregnated with Satanís child) to not read pregnancy books, nor compare her pregnancy with that of her friends or family since every pregnancy is unique. This practice, of course, promoted isolationism and didnít allow Rosemary to see how she was progressing next to her peers. Thus Satanís seed was undisturbed and born unto the earth.

At the FBO Iím at, other CFIs have shown sympathy towards me and have rolled their eyes at my CFI and his wasteful ways. The redeeming quality about the FBO Iím at is that the owner and chief have really shown me how to be a good pilot and not just pass the check ride. Unfortunately, the owner/chief is only available during Stage Checks.

70 hours later Iím approaching my FAA Practical Exam. I flew 3 Ė 4 times per week with my really lame CFI, who, I know, I should have switched after the third flight. Iíve been with one other FBO (had a drunkard CFI) and Iíve been by ATP (totally disappointing) and really like the FBO Iím at, with the exception of my dumb a$$ instructor.I guess Iím not here to seek advice, because I already know what to do, but I just want to let you newbies out there hear my story so that you know when to say ďSTOP. YOU ARE FIREDĒ or figure out what is important to you. I couldnít bring myself to uproot and stop my training to find the perfect CFI. So instead I sucked it up and rode it out.

Weíll see how the outcome goes in regards to my End of Course. Perhaps I may even get to fill out an evaluation on my CFI.

Good excuse! At 70 hours you would have been on your X/C's building time and searching for that $100 hamburger. Disappointing indeed!

Just curious...What was so "disappointing" about ATP? I know that they have some faults, but don't bash the whole system when you chose to "stick it out" at your favorite FBO.

TankerBob
01-17-2007, 08:37 PM
Hey man I knew a guy who didnt solo until around 60hrs at a 141 school. He managed to do just fine afterwards. If you have a sh!tty instructor, thats self critiquing man, you need to get a new instructor.

Good luck, you would be amazed what self study can get you!


toeman9
01-17-2007, 08:44 PM
I do like the FBO I'm at with the exception of my CFI because the staff and the other CFIs seem genuinely good at providing a quality service to the students. Unfortunately, I got stuck with Mr. Halitosis-blahbidy-blah-blah. I was the newest student, so when I asked for a new Instructor, they really didn't have one available.

The other FBO I was at had a CFI who loved to cut the fuel selector off, put the plane into spins to teach me a lesson, and come to work smelling like a keg of beer.

The ATP was facility was a dark, dank, and dreary operation. Students looked depressed and the CFIs couldn't answer half of the questions I asked them. Plus the place had the smell of old socks, stale coffee, and B.O. (kind of like an old college dorm). The ATP CFI who gave me a tour spoke very slowly and seemed confused a lot of the time. He did admit to recently getting into a motorcycle accident and just getting out of rehab to make his last hours as a CFI before applying to the airlines. Who knows... maybe he was a TBI paitient. For the sake of passengers, I hope not.

So out of these three options, my current FBO was the lesser of all evils. And like some of you, I don't have the luxury of just packing my bags and going to FL or AZ to do my flight lessons. I actually have a house, job, and family to support, so I'm limited to what is local for me.

DMP9679
01-17-2007, 09:33 PM
Fair enough, just checking.

razorseal
01-18-2007, 12:05 AM
yeah, your IP is very important... there are some greedy ass ones too... they'll make a hour flight a 3 hour flight... luckily my instructor and I get along REAL good, we learn a lot from each other...

I remember my friend and I went to a FBO to rent a plane and he (my friend) did the checkout ride with this weird ass German female CFI... he has a thousand hours, with commercial, IFR ratings and whatnot and knows the area very well... a 45 min checkout ride became an almost 3 hour checkout ride! it was fricking nuts....

ryane946
01-18-2007, 08:09 AM
Two VERY important things:

Number 1. I soloed at 26 hours. I got my private at 49 hours. Part 61. Used the Jepppesen Syllabus. I flew out of a towered airport (and they take longer than an uncontrolled field). I was in no hurry to solo. I just wanted to become the best pilot I could. Remember, once you solo, all you need is some night practice, two cross countries with your instructor, 10 hours of solo (most of this will be PIC XC), and then checkride prep. This is probably 25 hours. (about 13 of XC, 5 of night/instrument, 3 of random VOR/ADF/unusual attitudes, 5 hours of checkride prep).

As far as I am concerned, you could finish your private with 50-55 hours (AND THAT IS GOOD!!!) If you want to be an airline pilot someday, you are going to need all that time anyway. Don't stress if you go 10 hours over what you thought it would take you. REMEMBER, the national average is between 60hours and 70 hours.

Number 2. You already know this, but change your instructor. Now. Not a week from now. Not next time you go to the airport. RIGHT NOW. Call him up and tell him you want to change instructors. It is not a big deal. I had 3 different instructors for my private. Not because I wanted to get rid of them. I started flying up through solo in Colorado. Then I moved to California and did a few hours at an FBO, then found an AWESOME flying club across the field and changed yet again. They were all good instructors. They are all teaching for the same test. Each one did a few things differently, but it was not a big deal. I say switching between 3 different instructors maybe cost me 1 or 2 hours. NO BIG DEAL! Do not let your current flight instructor continue to milk you.

schoolio
01-18-2007, 08:55 AM
Ditto above. Your flight instructor is milking your and that needs to be stopped. You need to tell him that he's fired, and then you need to sit with the chief instructor and relate to him that if he wants your business, he'll find you a new instructor. It's your money. If you want to continue to waste it, go ahead. If you want to put it to good use, well, you're the customer, so spend it on what you want, not what someone else thinks you should have.

JSchraub
01-18-2007, 09:33 AM
If at you and your CFI aren't getting along, or you don't like him/her after the first handfull of lessons.. Fire them. Hire a new one.

FlyingChipmunk
01-18-2007, 04:52 PM
Keep in mind guys the average solo times range from 15hrs on the low end to 30 hrs on the high side. I personally have soloed students with as low as 8hrs and as high as 35hrs. I cant speak for your skills but, some people just have trouble and take more time to develop certain skills not always just flying related (IE attitude towards flying).

LAfrequentflyer
01-18-2007, 04:55 PM
Keep in mind guys the average solo times range from 15hrs on the low end to 30 hrs on the high side. I personally have soloed students with as low as 8hrs and as high as 35hrs. I cant speak for your skills but, some people just have trouble and take more time to develop certain skills not always just flying related (IE attitude towards flying).



Another reason to avoid FBOs - the bad / poor attitude student.

-LAFF

vagabond
01-18-2007, 05:04 PM
Solo at 15 hours? Gulp. I am at 15 hours right now, and if I solo tomorrow, I know just enough to crash and kill myself and thereby depriving the forums of my genius!

Slice
01-18-2007, 05:07 PM
Another reason to avoid FBOs - the bad / poor attitude student.

-LAFF

Yeah, it's horrible out there...quick everyone to ALL ATP!!!!!!!!! :rolleyes:

LAfrequentflyer
01-18-2007, 05:10 PM
You know more than you realize...The whole FBO / CFI game works by stringing you along for more money / hours...

-LAFF

LAfrequentflyer
01-18-2007, 05:10 PM
Yeah, it's horrible out there...quick everyone to ALL ATP!!!!!!!!! :rolleyes:

No...Quick - run to and train at the place that suits you. If that happends to be www.allatps.com then so be it.

-LAFF

Slice
01-18-2007, 05:17 PM
You know more than you realize...The whole FBO / CFI game works by stringing you along for more money / hours...

-LAFF

According to you, the only honest flight school out there is ATP? I'd take my chances at an FBO where there are instructors who instruct because it's a career or they enjoy it. Not some guy who is regurgitating what he learned to pass his MEI ride last month. There are no bad instructors at ATP? You need to step away from the Kool-Aid man.

FlyingChipmunk
01-18-2007, 05:20 PM
Another reason to avoid FBOs - the bad / poor attitude student.

-LAFF

Just saying that its not always the instructors fault. Yes we are all underpaid and may milk a flight every now and then when it gets slow. but some students just take more time and try and lay the blame on everyone but themselves.

LAfrequentflyer
01-18-2007, 05:23 PM
According to you, the only honest flight school out there is ATP? I'd take my chances at an FBO where there are instructors who instruct because it's a career or they enjoy it. Not some guy who is regurgitating what he learned to pass his MEI ride last month. There are no bad instructors at ATP? You need to step away from the Kool-Aid man.


Based on my experience with FBO - they are not honest operations. I've never said ATP has no bad CFIs. I don't drink their kool-aid. I've never set foot in an ATP location. I have merely decided to go their for my training after I retire from the AF. I based that decision on research / factfinding on this and other forums.

-LAFF

vagabond
01-18-2007, 05:26 PM
Boys, boys, please! The only thing we need now is Uncle Bose in here to tell us about the horrors of ERAU!

LAfrequentflyer
01-18-2007, 05:26 PM
Just saying that its not always the instructors fault. Yes we are all underpaid and may milk a flight every now and then when it gets slow. but some students just take more time and try and lay the blame on everyone but themselves.

BS...Students don't need more time...FBO / CFIs milk their students as much as they can - its how they make their coin. The longer the student stays the more you and the FBO make...

-LAFF

FlyingChipmunk
01-18-2007, 05:28 PM
Then why is it cheaper to train with an FBO all the way through.

LAfrequentflyer
01-18-2007, 05:30 PM
Boys, boys, please! The only thing we need now is Uncle Bose in here to tell us about the horrors of ERAU!

There is a good thread on flightinfo.com about ERAU. One student left with 120K is the hole...His payments are $600+ a month on regional FO pay...Of course, there are a few ERAU grads that have 'no regrets...'

-LAFF

LAfrequentflyer
01-18-2007, 05:32 PM
Then why is it cheaper to train with an FBO all the way through.

Its not cheaper compared to the ME time ATP program gives you.

-LAFF

FlyingChipmunk
01-18-2007, 05:35 PM
FBO's don't provide cookie cutter training like the big schools. We adapt to each of our students. Marketing is as much of a part of our jobs as the flying and if we do a bad job or make a bad impression students don't come back. The bigger schools already have your money and you are forced into training good or bad. My point is if it were really as bad as you make it out to be there is no way we would be in business.

FlyingChipmunk
01-18-2007, 05:36 PM
Its not cheaper compared to the ME time ATP program gives you.

-LAFF

The infamous "safety pilot" routine.

LAfrequentflyer
01-18-2007, 05:39 PM
FBO's don't provide cookie cutter training like the big schools. We adapt to each of our students. Marketing is as much of a part of our jobs as the flying and if we do a bad job or make a bad impression students don't come back. The bigger schools already have your money and you are forced into training good or bad. My point is if it were really as bad as you make it out to be there is no way we would be in business.

Your in business because of the ignorant masses that don't know about the product ATP sells. I was one of those ignorant fools. I've since learned an very valuable lesson...


I'm very bitter about my FBO experiences...

-LAFF

LAfrequentflyer
01-18-2007, 05:40 PM
The infamous "safety pilot" routine.

Not at all...Thats AriBen you're thinking about.

-LAFF

FlyingChipmunk
01-18-2007, 05:42 PM
My friend is a Standardization pilot at ATP. The cross country time building is safety pilot time.

LAfrequentflyer
01-18-2007, 05:45 PM
My friend is a Standardization pilot at ATP. The cross country time building is safety pilot time.

Its legal under the FARs. I see no problem if thats what they do. I have to be honest - I didn't know thats what they did when two student pilots went x-c at ATP. It makes sense.

-LAFF

FlyingChipmunk
01-18-2007, 05:52 PM
This is true it is legal but can be difficult to explain when on an interview(I have heard) I would rather spend more time instructing to gain PIC time and experience than sitting in the right seat as safety pilot.

LAfrequentflyer
01-18-2007, 05:58 PM
This is true it is legal but can be difficult to explain when on an interview(I have heard) I would rather spend more time instructing to gain PIC time and experience than sitting in the right seat as safety pilot.

Maybe airlines ask to see how well applicants can explain an applicable FAR to them. You're being hired to be a Captain someday - you'll have to explain things to an F/O...From my research most if not all ATP folks spend time as CFIs to get to min levels or more for the regionals...

-LAFF

FlyingChipmunk
01-18-2007, 06:12 PM
Not to side track too much but if you are in the AF now why not start flying. Join the Civil Air Patrol or a flying club..

POPA
01-18-2007, 06:25 PM
Not to side track too much but if you are in the AF now why not start flying. Join the Civil Air Patrol or a flying club..

Clearly, neither of these alternatives are as cost-effective as ATP.:rolleyes:

FlyingChipmunk
01-18-2007, 06:36 PM
Clearly, neither of these alternatives are as cost-effective as ATP.:rolleyes:


Wonder how much he got paid for that infomercial. He should be selling oxyclean..

tomgoodman
01-18-2007, 10:20 PM
Solo at 15 hours? Gulp.

Vagabond,

As I recall, we had to solo the T-41 (Cessna 172) in less time than that. Of course, there were mitigating factors: 1) The instructors made no more money by giving a student extra rides. 2) There was a plentiful supply of students and a T-37 class scheduled to start on a certain day, so they washed out guys who would surely have soloed given a little more time. 3) I think they skipped lots of instruction that a civilian student would get -- FARs, navigation, etc.-- concentrating on just the basics.

So it probably wasn't the same course that you're taking, but it was a real solo, followed by a dunking in a cow tank full of green, slimy water. :eek:

mike734
01-19-2007, 03:20 AM
So I soloed after 25 hours. Bummer. I did a 141 course that followed the Jeppesen syllabus.

Are you you weren't following a Japanese syllabus? :D Don't worry about you how long you took to solo. Different airports are complicated and maybe you just didn't "get" something. You have now soloed now so you press on.

It is all experience and that is what counts. You should try different instructors however to see if you find one you like better. It's your money. It's your training.

LAfrequentflyer
01-19-2007, 03:23 AM
Not to side track too much but if you are in the AF now why not start flying. Join the Civil Air Patrol or a flying club..

I'm stationed in DC and with my security clearance I don't want to risk any negative attention. For me its not worth it at this point in my career. I can wait.

-LAFF

POPA
01-19-2007, 04:34 AM
I'm stationed in DC and with my security clearance I don't want to risk any negative attention. For me its not worth it at this point in my career. I can wait.

-LAFF

Huh? I did lots of flying in the DC area, and I never had any 'negative attention' cast upon me.

vagabond
01-19-2007, 07:52 AM
So it probably wasn't the same course that you're taking, but it was a real solo, followed by a dunking in a cow tank full of green, slimy water. :eek:

Tom, I'm glad it ain't 1971 anymore! :)

LAfrequentflyer
01-19-2007, 08:32 AM
Huh? I did lots of flying in the DC area, and I never had any 'negative attention' cast upon me.

I've made my decision to not fly in the DC area. I'm not going to rationalize it for you. You made yours - I'm glad it worked out for you.

-LAFF

poor pilot
01-19-2007, 08:51 AM
hey toeman what do you consider a [email protected]# flight instructor??? i know some [email protected]# flight instructors but i also know [email protected]#$ students also. When i was instucting if a student want to get all of his ratings we would do the first portion of his private up untill the solo then go on to the instrument when most of the instrument was finished they would solo by that time the solo was a non-event three supervised solo's in the mourning 2 local solo's in the afternoon. 2 x-c's the next day, another 2 the following day untill all the solo's were done review the slow flight steep turns stalls checkride (non-event) two weeks later instrument checkride commercial complete in a couple weeks later, very productive program. i soloed at a different school than i instructed at so i scared myself aroud the pattern in about 10-12 hours I did not kill myself but i did not enjoy it untill i was back on the ground.

Slice
01-19-2007, 09:31 AM
I've made my decision to not fly in the DC area. I'm not going to rationalize it for you. You made yours - I'm glad it worked out for you.

-LAFF

Are you worried I may have to intercept you? I'll be gentle, I promise. Even if you still do want to attend ATP.:D

LAfrequentflyer
01-19-2007, 09:39 AM
Are you worried I may have to intercept you? I'll be gentle, I promise. Even if you still do want to attend ATP.:D

<grin>

Yeap...You'll know its me...I put a big ATP meatball on the side / top / bottom of my C172.

-LAFF

de727ups
01-19-2007, 11:03 AM
"I've never said ATP has no bad CFIs. I don't drink their kool-aid. I've never set foot in an ATP location"

LAFF, you come across at this site as though you're a spokesperson/marketing rep for ATP. Quite the cheerleader. Yet you've never set foot in an ATP location nor done any training there?

I trained at a little flight school and ended up at UPS. Little FBO's aren't all bad. Your self admitted bitterness towards them is fine but you run around this site telling every newb that ATP is the only way. What's sad is a few are gonna listen to you like you have some experience with it outside the internet, which you don't.

ATP is a great place to train for those who want to go that route. The smaller flight school is a great place to train for others. There are advantages to the little schools that don't include getting on at a regional in min time but that will make a better pilot out of you. To me, that's important.

My biggest beefs with ATP are the low CFI pay, the lack of a chance to experience the world outside of the ATP system, and the reliance on inexperienced CFI's who were PPL's 90 days ago. You could do better at an FBO, in some cases. In some cases, maybe not, but to discount all FBO's blindly in favor of ATP does a disservice to the newbs who read this site.

NE_Pilot
01-19-2007, 11:07 AM
Alright here it comes:

Another reason to avoid FBOs - the bad / poor attitude student

How does a bad/poor student attitude affect YOUR training?? I have never had a poor attituded student affect my training, and I don't see how they would affect your training.

BS...Students don't need more time...FBO / CFIs milk their students as much as they can - its how they make their coin. The longer the student stays the more you and the FBO make...

Your right, every student takes the EXACT same amount of time. There are no learning curves, everyone gets everything the first time around, perfectly. If this is what you truly believe, then I feel sorry for your furture students when you sign them off based solely on the amount of Dual they have received and not on their capabilities.

Of course, there are a few ERAU grads that have 'no regrets...'

There are also a few ALL ATP Guys who sound just like some of these ERAU grads. If you just replaced ALL ATPS with ERAU, I think it would be a perfect match.

Your in business because of the ignorant masses that don't know about the product ATP sells. I was one of those ignorant fools. I've since learned an very valuable lesson...
I'm very bitter about my FBO experiences...


I guess one bad FBO means all FBOs are bad. Its a shame because you can find instructors with much more real-world expeirence at FBOs, not so much at ATP. One of my instructors retired from a career of flying and teaches because he loves to. I think I learned more from him than I would from a 190 hour, brand new, ATP Grad, teaching me.

Its legal under the FARs. I see no problem if thats what they do. I have to be honest - I didn't know thats what they did when two student pilots went x-c at ATP. It makes sense.

The problem with half of your X-C time being Safety Pilot time, is that you do not have the expeirence that goes along with the time. You have half the expeirence. You lose out on alot when you simply sit right seat and look out the window for other aircraft.

LAfrequentflyer
01-19-2007, 11:31 AM
"I've never said ATP has no bad CFIs. I don't drink their kool-aid. I've never set foot in an ATP location"

LAFF, you come across at this site as though you're a spokesperson/marketing rep for ATP. Quite the cheerleader. Yet you've never set foot in an ATP location nor done any training there?

I trained at a little flight school and ended up at UPS. Little FBO's aren't all bad. Your self admitted bitterness towards them is fine but you run around this site telling every newb that ATP is the only way. What's sad is a few are gonna listen to you like you have some experience with it outside the internet, which you don't.

ATP is a great place to train for those who want to go that route. The smaller flight school is a great place to train for others. There are advantages to the little schools that don't include getting on at a regional in min time but that will make a better pilot out of you. To me, that's important.

My biggest beefs with ATP are the low CFI pay, the lack of a chance to experience the world outside of the ATP system, and the reliance on inexperienced CFI's who were PPL's 90 days ago. You could do better at an FBO, in some cases. In some cases, maybe not, but to discount all FBO's blindly in favor of ATP does a disservice to the newbs who read this site.


I hope they do more than listen to me. I hope they do their own research. If they do - they'll realize that ATP offers the best $$$ deal for the hours / type of hours / time from start to finish of any 141 flight academy out there. If you are serious about getting into aviation as a career changer then pay up and get your ratings at ATP. Then CFI...Then apply for 135 jobs...Then head to a regional after you get some 135 single pilot IFR type flying in your logbook.

I'm not responsible for people taking my word and not doing their own research....

-LAFF

LAfrequentflyer
01-19-2007, 11:37 AM
Alright here it comes:



How does a bad/poor student attitude affect YOUR training?? I have never had a poor attituded student affect my training, and I don't see how they would affect your training.



Your right, every student takes the EXACT same amount of time. There are no learning curves, everyone gets everything the first time around, perfectly. If this is what you truly believe, then I feel sorry for your furture students when you sign them off based solely on the amount of Dual they have received and not on their capabilities.



There are also a few ALL ATP Guys who sound just like some of these ERAU grads. If you just replaced ALL ATPS with ERAU, I think it would be a perfect match.



I guess one bad FBO means all FBOs are bad. Its a shame because you can find instructors with much more real-world expeirence at FBOs, not so much at ATP. One of my instructors retired from a career of flying and teaches because he loves to. I think I learned more from him than I would from a 190 hour, brand new, ATP Grad, teaching me.



The problem with half of your X-C time being Safety Pilot time, is that you do not have the expeirence that goes along with the time. You have half the expeirence. You lose out on alot when you simply sit right seat and look out the window for other aircraft.


Real world experience at milking their students out of their money. I do agree not all FBO CFIs lack real world experience.

There is a considerable difference between the Harvard of the Skies and ATP. You're not saying ATP is the same as Harvard of the Skies are you? ATP is for flight training. Harvard of the Skies is for...Debt?

Don't be dramatic and pretend to care about my future students. Its not your place or responsibility unless I work for you. In that case, your expectations will be given thier due from me the loyal / hard-working employee. However, the final say on if they are ready or is mine. I'm not flexible on that responsibility. You can hire someone else if you disagree. There are plenty of CFI jobs out there.

-LAFF

Slice
01-19-2007, 01:54 PM
Real world experience at milking their students out of their money. I do agree not all FBO CFIs lack real world experience.

There is a considerable difference between the Harvard of the Skies and ATP. You're not saying ATP is the same as Harvard of the Skies are you? ATP is for flight training. Harvard of the Skies is for...Debt?

Don't be dramatic and pretend to care about my future students. Its not your place or responsibility unless I work for you. In that case, your expectations will be given thier due from me the loyal / hard-working employee. However, the final say on if they are ready or is mine. I'm not flexible on that responsibility. You can hire someone else if you disagree. There are plenty of CFI jobs out there.

-LAFF

LAFF, Below is a sample of the Prairie Air Service Ab-Initio program for approx. $34,085 you get 317 hours of total time, 156 hours of multi, ratings PPL thru MEI, includes 6 months of housing with food(worst case- can be done in 4-5 realistically saving $600/mo), includes examiner fees, written fees, etc. Out the door for $34K. The same program without food at ATP...$47,395. You can add the additional 34 hours to get to 190 multi at PAS for $5270 w/ instructor only or 50% as safety pilot for $2635 which brings your PAS total to $39,425 / $36,790 PAS savings $7970 - $10605 with CFI's that have been flying more than 90 days.
So in this case ATP is for DEBT?

http://www.prairieairservice.com/commerical_ab_initio.htm
Single and Multi Engine Instrument and Commercial Pilot Course #3: $21,900.00

This is our "deluxe" package which includes 150 hours multi-engine flight time and a total of 161 hours of retractable gear experience. It includes 78 hours Cessna 150, 11 hours Piper Arrow, 150 hours Piper Apache and 16 hours ATC 610 procedures trainer. This package also includes 132 hours of instructor time (approximately 86 hours flight, 16 hours flight training device and 30 hours ground instruction). 110 hours of multi engine flight time will be enhanced instrument training and shared flight time: You will fly with another pilot, and one of you will wear a hood and practice instrument procedures, while the other pilot acts as safety pilot. Under this arrangement the FAA allows both pilots to log the flight time. Due to insurance requirements an instructor will be on board on these flights. He will ride in the back seat and act as coach. You will receive enhanced instrument instruction above and beyond the requirements for the instrument rating. A multi-engine mountain flying checkout to Colorado or New Mexico is included. We can also fly a long multi-engine cross country trip lasting several days to a tourist attraction such as the Grand Canyon, Yellowstone or Niagara Falls. There will be a fuel surcharge of about $20.00 per hour (shared by both pilots) on long cross country trips in the Apache, since fuel prices away from our home base are considerably higher than our bulk fuel costs at home. Any hotel, restaurant and rental car costs will be additional.


http://www.prairieairservice.com/flight_instructor_training.htm
Initial Flight Instructor Certificate, Airplane Single Engine $ 3400.00

3 to 5 weeks: 15 hours Piper Arrow dual, 40 hours ground school and briefings
Pre-requisites: Commercial pilot airplane single engine land with instrument rating, completion of (2) knowledge exams.
Note: Students with rusty commercial pilot maneuvers skills will require
additional flight time. Students with weak background knowledge and/or poor communications skills will require considerably more ground school before being able to present the required subject areas at the instructional level. Requires a large amount of self study and homework.
MORE INFORMATION | BACK TO TOP



Flight Instructor Instrument Rating $ 1250.00

3 days: 8 hours Piper Arrow dual, 6 hours ground school and briefings.
Pre-requisites: Commercial pilot, airplane single engine land with instrument rating, flight instructor airplane single (or multi) engine, completion of knowledge exam. Instrument currency and competency.
Note: Students who are rusty on instrument procedures will require additional training. Prior instructing experience is helpful.




Multi Engine Instructor Rating $ 1235.00

3 days: 6 hrs. dual, airplane for flight test 5 hrs. ground school & briefings, examinerís fee additional.
Pre-requisites: Commercial pilot, airplane single and multi engine land with instrument rating, flight instructor airplane single engine, 10 hours multi engine pilot in command.
Note: 200 hours of instructing experience is helpful. Students without much instructing experience will require additional ground and flight training.

LAfrequentflyer
01-19-2007, 02:51 PM
LAFF, Below is a sample of the Prairie Air Service Ab-Initio program for approx. $34,085 you get 317 hours of total time, 156 hours of multi, ratings PPL thru MEI, includes 6 months of housing with food(worst case- can be done in 4-5 realistically saving $600/mo), includes examiner fees, written fees, etc. Out the door for $34K. The same program without food at ATP...$47,395. You can add the additional 34 hours to get to 190 multi at PAS for $5270 w/ instructor only or 50% as safety pilot for $2635 which brings your PAS total to $39,425 / $36,790 PAS savings $7970 - $10605 with CFI's that have been flying more than 90 days.
So in this case ATP is for DEBT?

http://www.prairieairservice.com/commerical_ab_initio.htm
Single and Multi Engine Instrument and Commercial Pilot Course #3: $21,900.00

This is our "deluxe" package which includes 150 hours multi-engine flight time and a total of 161 hours of retractable gear experience. It includes 78 hours Cessna 150, 11 hours Piper Arrow, 150 hours Piper Apache and 16 hours ATC 610 procedures trainer. This package also includes 132 hours of instructor time (approximately 86 hours flight, 16 hours flight training device and 30 hours ground instruction). 110 hours of multi engine flight time will be enhanced instrument training and shared flight time: You will fly with another pilot, and one of you will wear a hood and practice instrument procedures, while the other pilot acts as safety pilot. Under this arrangement the FAA allows both pilots to log the flight time. Due to insurance requirements an instructor will be on board on these flights. He will ride in the back seat and act as coach. You will receive enhanced instrument instruction above and beyond the requirements for the instrument rating. A multi-engine mountain flying checkout to Colorado or New Mexico is included. We can also fly a long multi-engine cross country trip lasting several days to a tourist attraction such as the Grand Canyon, Yellowstone or Niagara Falls. There will be a fuel surcharge of about $20.00 per hour (shared by both pilots) on long cross country trips in the Apache, since fuel prices away from our home base are considerably higher than our bulk fuel costs at home. Any hotel, restaurant and rental car costs will be additional.


http://www.prairieairservice.com/flight_instructor_training.htm
Initial Flight Instructor Certificate, Airplane Single Engine $ 3400.00

3 to 5 weeks: 15 hours Piper Arrow dual, 40 hours ground school and briefings
Pre-requisites: Commercial pilot airplane single engine land with instrument rating, completion of (2) knowledge exams.
Note: Students with rusty commercial pilot maneuvers skills will require
additional flight time. Students with weak background knowledge and/or poor communications skills will require considerably more ground school before being able to present the required subject areas at the instructional level. Requires a large amount of self study and homework.
MORE INFORMATION | BACK TO TOP



Flight Instructor Instrument Rating $ 1250.00

3 days: 8 hours Piper Arrow dual, 6 hours ground school and briefings.
Pre-requisites: Commercial pilot, airplane single engine land with instrument rating, flight instructor airplane single (or multi) engine, completion of knowledge exam. Instrument currency and competency.
Note: Students who are rusty on instrument procedures will require additional training. Prior instructing experience is helpful.




Multi Engine Instructor Rating $ 1235.00

3 days: 6 hrs. dual, airplane for flight test 5 hrs. ground school & briefings, examinerís fee additional.
Pre-requisites: Commercial pilot, airplane single and multi engine land with instrument rating, flight instructor airplane single engine, 10 hours multi engine pilot in command.
Note: 200 hours of instructing experience is helpful. Students without much instructing experience will require additional ground and flight training.

I'm not going to take this road. I understand you trained there and they are a family type business. I'll accept their prices are very reasonable.

I still...Well, you know the rest.

-LAFF

sigep_nm
01-21-2007, 12:26 AM
So I soloed after 25 hours. Bummer. I did a 141 course that followed the Jeppesen syllabus.
As some of you may know, I had that pain in the a$$ flight instructor who loved to talk about blabid,y blah, blah. My CFI told me not to worry about how long it took me to solo and not to compare with others, because I would just ďset myself up for failureĒ. I got booked hours, and I got chumped.

I compare my experience to that of Rosemary in ďRosemaryís BabyĒ, when Dr. Saprestien (the OB) convinces Rosemary (who is impregnated with Satanís child) to not read pregnancy books, nor compare her pregnancy with that of her friends or family since every pregnancy is unique. This practice, of course, promoted isolationism and didnít allow Rosemary to see how she was progressing next to her peers. Thus Satanís seed was undisturbed and born unto the earth.

At the FBO Iím at, other CFIs have shown sympathy towards me and have rolled their eyes at my CFI and his wasteful ways. The redeeming quality about the FBO Iím at is that the owner and chief have really shown me how to be a good pilot and not just pass the check ride. Unfortunately, the owner/chief is only available during Stage Checks.

70 hours later Iím approaching my FAA Practical Exam. I flew 3 Ė 4 times per week with my really lame CFI, who, I know, I should have switched after the third flight. Iíve been with one other FBO (had a drunkard CFI) and Iíve been by ATP (totally disappointing) and really like the FBO Iím at, with the exception of my dumb a$$ instructor.

I guess Iím not here to seek advice, because I already know what to do, but I just want to let you newbies out there hear my story so that you know when to say ďSTOP. YOU ARE FIREDĒ or figure out what is important to you. I couldnít bring myself to uproot and stop my training to find the perfect CFI. So instead I sucked it up and rode it out.

Weíll see how the outcome goes in regards to my End of Course. Perhaps I may even get to fill out an evaluation on my CFI.

Seriously did you ever think that maybe you werent good enough yet? Your a$$ isnt on the line, and maybe your instructor knows a little more than you (since he kind of went to school to figure out who is stupid and who isnt) All be it there are some time builders out there, but seriously, you were/are a presolo private and what do you really know?

PositiveRate
01-21-2007, 02:34 AM
ATP is the place to be for your pilot training needs...I wish I had my promotional package from them - they explain everything in detail. They also compare their program to the other academy programs out there to show you how good you have it at ATP...

I suggest you get on-line get their package sent to you and go visit their locations.


Plenty of people at the regionals, majors , fractionals that got their training at ATP.

You get what you pay for at ATP in the time frame they say.

-LAFF



I haven't been posting very long but have been reading most posts for about 6-7 months. And LAFF always seems to come off this way. I don't know what happened to you to make you so bitter towards smaller FBO's, but what are you going to do when ATP makes you this bitter. (don't know if they will but it could happen) I would wait untill you actually start training at ATP before you make such bold statements. I can make alot of things look good on paper, and design a cool website.

And I bet ALOT more people that are flying professionally went to a local FBO then went to a ratings mill. So the small FBO has been a pretty good bet over the last 75 years or so.

sigep_nm
01-22-2007, 08:23 PM
I haven't been posting very long but have been reading most posts for about 6-7 months. And LAFF always seems to come off this way. I don't know what happened to you to make you so bitter towards smaller FBO's, but what are you going to do when ATP makes you this bitter. (don't know if they will but it could happen) I would wait untill you actually start training at ATP before you make such bold statements. I can make alot of things look good on paper, and design a cool website.

And I bet ALOT more people that are flying professionally went to a local FBO then went to a ratings mill. So the small FBO has been a pretty good bet over the last 75 years or so.

Its been a pretty good bet because for a while that was the only way availalbe besides the military. I guarantee that those numbers are shrinking, and they should, because most FBO's dont have the resources to provide training in TAA's. The FBO of the future will be for recreational flying, while the so called "pilot mills" will serve their purpose of creating professional aviators. That being said, ATP is a joke. Can you seriously tell me that someone can gain the experience necessary to be a professional aviator in 90 days? Have fun flying for pinnacle.

BoredwLife
01-22-2007, 09:59 PM
[quote=PositiveRate;105597] I can make alot of things look good on paper, and design a cool website. quote]

I know the army and airforce fooled a few of my friends with this. They told me they would be flying attack helo's and jets while I was widdling away flight instructing. Look at them now They pump gas for Helos and jets in the military.

I worked with a few ATP guys and although thier program seems like a good set up, I truely enjoyed making thier instructors look retarded time and time again. You will get the same thing where ever you go with instructors. Unless you find some of the few who do it for life.

LAfrequentflyer
01-23-2007, 04:08 AM
I haven't been posting very long but have been reading most posts for about 6-7 months. And LAFF always seems to come off this way. I don't know what happened to you to make you so bitter towards smaller FBO's, but what are you going to do when ATP makes you this bitter. (don't know if they will but it could happen) I would wait untill you actually start training at ATP before you make such bold statements. I can make alot of things look good on paper, and design a cool website.

And I bet ALOT more people that are flying professionally went to a local FBO then went to a ratings mill. So the small FBO has been a pretty good bet over the last 75 years or so.

It has nothing to do with paper and web sites. It has to do with 1st person accounts from people that trained with ATP.

I'm glad it worked for them.

-LAFF

LAfrequentflyer
01-23-2007, 04:14 AM
Its been a pretty good bet because for a while that was the only way availalbe besides the military. I guarantee that those numbers are shrinking, and they should, because most FBO's dont have the resources to provide training in TAA's. The FBO of the future will be for recreational flying, while the so called "pilot mills" will serve their purpose of creating professional aviators. That being said, ATP is a joke. Can you seriously tell me that someone can gain the experience necessary to be a professional aviator in 90 days? Have fun flying for pinnacle.


Interesting point about FBOs and the future.

Whats wrong with Pinnacle? Are you making a off-color remark about their fatal accident a few years back? That had more to do with lack of leadership / airmanship by the CA then anything else. If any problems exist in the culture there it is something the professionals at Pinnacle will have to resolve. We can argue about it if you like, but what good will that do? You'll continue to take the low road and I'll point out that at the end of the day it comes down to leadership / professionalism.

BTW - the FAA has no issue with ATP and 121 airlines have no problems hiring their graduates. The AF turns out 90 day wonders on a regular basis at MAFB.

Sincerely,
LAFF

PMeyer
01-23-2007, 07:02 AM
I've dealt with some great FBOs, and flying clubs, and awesome instructors. I've also seen and met the disparaging.

This whole thread is like Deja Vu from many other threads on many other boards.

You're the customer, fire them if you don't like them. Pretty simple. Be professional about it and you won't burn any bridges.

I also LOL @ all the folks who endlessly bash FBO, flight schools, particularly one part 61 operation, and have zero experience with the company.

This is true it is legal but can be difficult to explain when on an interview(I have heard) I would rather spend more time instructing to gain PIC time and experience than sitting in the right seat as safety pilot.

Yeah I dunno, over 24 hired this month alone. It is legal, where did you hear it is difficult to explain. Pretty cut and dry, one would think. Also, those numbers are only going to get bigger with the majors sucking up all the regional CA's.

TankerBob
01-23-2007, 09:27 AM
The AF turns out 90 day wonders huh? Not quite...

LAfrequentflyer
01-23-2007, 09:42 AM
The AF turns out 90 day wonders huh? Not quite...

What do you call OTS?

-LAFF

TankerBob
01-23-2007, 10:41 AM
OH My apologies... I thought you were talking about something else

C152driver
01-23-2007, 10:53 AM
Its been a pretty good bet because for a while that was the only way availalbe besides the military. I guarantee that those numbers are shrinking, and they should, because most FBO's dont have the resources to provide training in TAA's. The FBO of the future will be for recreational flying, while the so called "pilot mills" will serve their purpose of creating professional aviators. That being said, ATP is a joke. Can you seriously tell me that someone can gain the experience necessary to be a professional aviator in 90 days? Have fun flying for pinnacle.

There are two FBO operations in my city providing training in TAA's. One has an FTD set up for training on the equipment. That being said, I am sure that not all FBO training operations will have the money to put a TTA in their rental fleet.

The point behind places like AllATP's is not for the pilot to get experience, its for them to get their ratings quickly. That way, they can spend their time seeking the neccessary experience elsewhere. Personally, I think there is value in both approaches (FBO or pilot mill).

To the original poster: You have lost confidence in your CFI. IMO, you should end the relationship and move on. He should have been informing you on your progress all along, so the timing of your solo shouldnt have been a surprise. Keep in mind that the student carries some of the responsibility for progress. I only have limited experience as a CFI so far, but I have experienced situations where my students show up for a training flight unprepared, which only hurts them.

I know a few *very* experienced CFI's in my area that have the opinion that if you teach exactly to the regs and PTS, it would be difficult for a student to solo in less than 20 hours. I also know a couple of people that have soloed in quite a bit less, in one case, 8 hours. So, time to solo certainly can vary by quite a bit.

LAfrequentflyer
01-23-2007, 10:58 AM
OH My apologies... I thought you were talking about something else


Smart ssa!

-LAFF

ryane946
01-23-2007, 12:12 PM
Why would someone pay $45,000 for their licenses and ratings when they can pay $30,000 for the exact same training at an FBO is beyond me.

Hey LAFF, I have a car I'd like to sell you. It blue books for $10,000, but you can have it for the ATP discount price of $15,000.

I am not saying ATP is bad. It is the best of the academies because it is the cheapest and most reasonable off all the academies. It is still more expensive than any FBO.

LAfrequentflyer
01-23-2007, 12:33 PM
Why would someone pay $45,000 for their licenses and ratings when they can pay $30,000 for the exact same training at an FBO is beyond me.

Hey LAFF, I have a car I'd like to sell you. It blue books for $10,000, but you can have it for the ATP discount price of $15,000.

I am not saying ATP is bad. It is the best of the academies because it is the cheapest and most reasonable off all the academies. It is still more expensive than any FBO.

PM me and we can work out the details.

-LAFF

Timmay
01-25-2007, 06:13 AM
For what it's worth, I had a student that I solo'ed at 65 hours. I was his fourth instructor and I guess I was picked as a "last resort" before him being kicked out of the 141 program. The up-side is that he solo'ed, and is sort of on his way to doing something that he really wants to..., the down-side is that I doubt if he will have the ability to finish the private pilot course, and if that occurs he will certainly wash out when he gets to instruments...not to mention the fact that he's spent a TON of money and should be working on his instrument rating by now, instead of still trying to figure out how to flight plan...*sigh*

My point being, go ahead and compare yourself to others to see how you stand, and don't sweat the small stuff like a 10-15 hour difference between when you solo'ed. The important thing is that you DID solo (congrats, by the way), and you're on your way to that cert!

LAfrequentflyer
01-25-2007, 06:27 AM
For what it's worth, I had a student that I solo'ed at 65 hours. I was his fourth instructor and I guess I was picked as a "last resort" before him being kicked out of the 141 program. The up-side is that he solo'ed, and is sort of on his way to doing something that he really wants to..., the down-side is that I doubt if he will have the ability to finish the private pilot course, and if that occurs he will certainly wash out when he gets to instruments...not to mention the fact that he's spent a TON of money and should be working on his instrument rating by now, instead of still trying to figure out how to flight plan...*sigh*

My point being, go ahead and compare yourself to others to see how you stand, and don't sweat the small stuff like a 10-15 hour difference between when you solo'ed. The important thing is that you DID solo (congrats, by the way), and you're on your way to that cert!

Another victim of the FBO / CFI rape.

I ended up spending 9 months and 9.5K on my PPL. IHMO - I paid 4K too much because I had to go thru two CFI before I found one I could work with. I'll never waste time / money at an FBO again...

-LAFF

Puppyz
01-25-2007, 06:44 AM
you know LAFF, not everyone at ATP passes everything on the first try. Infact I bet they even have students who drop out of their program. Not everyone can fly , some people are just plain lazy and don't study on their own. Some students don't pick up on everything as fast as other students. Just because you went to a FBO and you didn't get done in the time you think you should have, doesn't mean every FBO is horrible and out to rape you of your money.

LAfrequentflyer
01-25-2007, 06:48 AM
you know LAFF, not everyone at ATP passes everything on the first try. Infact I bet they even have students who drop out of their program. Not everyone can fly , some people are just plain lazy and don't study on their own. Some students don't pick up on everything as fast as other students. Just because you went to a FBO and you didn't get done in the time you think you should have, doesn't mean every FBO is horrible and out to rape you of your money.

I got it done. I just had to juggle FBO CFIs and my military duties. I also paid 4K too much for a PPL. I paid too much because I was 'taken for a ride' by the first two CFIs. Its that simple.

-LAFF

SkyHigh
01-25-2007, 07:35 AM
Everyone has a style and approach to training that suits them best. The FBO offers a closer home town feel, but often lacks in true expertise, equipment and availability. The ATP style has a fast and action packed "get er done" way but has higher costs due to newer equipment and higher overhead at the larger metropolitan airports.

The best answer is to not go to either and buy yourself a Cessna 152 or piper tomahawk and hire your own freelance CFI.

Skyhigh

NE_Pilot
01-25-2007, 02:54 PM
Another victim of the FBO / CFI rape.

I ended up spending 9 months and 9.5K on my PPL. IHMO - I paid 4K too much because I had to go thru two CFI before I found one I could work with. I'll never waste time / money at an FBO again...

-LAFF

Interesting, $9,500 for your PPL, ATP charges $8,995 for your PPL. So a difference of $505, I guess ATP is in on raping students too. But instead of paying 4k too much, you would have only paid 3.5k too much.

LAfrequentflyer
01-25-2007, 03:16 PM
Interesting, $9,500 for your PPL, ATP charges $8,995 for your PPL. So a difference of $505, I guess ATP is in on raping students too. But instead of paying 4k too much, you would have only paid 3.5k too much.

You missed my point. At ATP you're quoted a fixed price not strung alone so some CFI can build time on your dime.

Had I kown about this site I would have done my research. Had I known about ATP I would have gone there.

-LAFF

samc
01-25-2007, 03:54 PM
Interesting, $9,500 for your PPL, ATP charges $8,995 for your PPL. So a difference of $505, I guess ATP is in on raping students too. But instead of paying 4k too much, you would have only paid 3.5k too much.

Don't forget that you get 85 hours (45 of which is cross country after your checkride) obviously it varies based on completion time for private checkride.

not to mention that XC is simulated instrument, getting you ready for the career phase...

apples to apples

LAfrequentflyer
01-25-2007, 04:07 PM
Don't forget that you get 85 hours (45 of which is cross country after your checkride) obviously it varies based on completion time for private checkride.

not to mention that XC is simulated instrument, getting you ready for the career phase...

apples to apples

Thanks...You're right. At www.allatps.com you get a good deal. WOW, I didn't realize how good a deal...



-LAFF

Puppyz
01-25-2007, 04:11 PM
hahaha damn this is getting ridiculous

Slice
01-25-2007, 04:17 PM
Thanks...You're right. At www.allatps.com you get a good deal. WOW, I didn't realize how good a deal...



-LAFF

www.prairieairservice.com, a better deal!

Uncle Bose
01-25-2007, 04:24 PM
The best deal of all:

http://www.erau.edu/db/flightdb/index.html

NE_Pilot
01-25-2007, 06:29 PM
You missed my point. At ATP you're quoted a fixed price not strung alone so some CFI can build time on your dime.

Had I kown about this site I would have done my research. Had I known about ATP I would have gone there.

-LAFF

Yet the price is essentially the same, for the same rating. If you are getting strung along/raped at the FBO, then it has to be the same at ATP if the price is the same for the same rating.

What do you think CFIs at ATP do?? They are building time on your dime, they aren't doing it for free. It is the same, the difference is that at the FBO you can do it for less. At ATP you pay the fixed price and to get the most out of it, you have to pass your checkride in the exact minimum time required.

NE_Pilot
01-25-2007, 06:36 PM
Don't forget that you get 85 hours (45 of which is cross country after your checkride) obviously it varies based on completion time for private checkride.

not to mention that XC is simulated instrument, getting you ready for the career phase...

apples to apples

I heard that half of that XC time is Safety Pilot time, so effectively you get half of that in actual flight experience, the rest is sitting there watching out for other aircraft. Although I am not postive on that.

Either way you have to do your research, and find what will work for you. ATP works for some and not for others. FBOs may be the best bet for some. To blanketly claim that all FBOs are inferior and out to rob you is being just plain ignorant. There is no right way or wrong way, and there is no best way to do it. If there was a best way to do it, then the vast majority would be doing it that way, which is not the case.

LAfrequentflyer
01-26-2007, 03:27 AM
At ATP you pay the fixed price and to get the most out of it, you have to pass your checkride in the exact minimum time required.

Thank you for writing the above statement. You have to work hard and pass at min. time - which is all that is required by the FAA to be awarded your ratings. There is no need to be logging anything beyond the published FAA mins for flight training. Doing so is a waste of your money.

-LAFF

LAfrequentflyer
01-26-2007, 03:29 AM
I heard that half of that XC time is Safety Pilot time, so effectively you get half of that in actual flight experience, the rest is sitting there watching out for other aircraft. Although I am not postive on that.

Either way you have to do your research, and find what will work for you. ATP works for some and not for others. FBOs may be the best bet for some. To blanketly claim that all FBOs are inferior and out to rob you is being just plain ignorant. There is no right way or wrong way, and there is no best way to do it. If there was a best way to do it, then the vast majority would be doing it that way, which is not the case.

Not true. The FAA and the industry value safety time as a legitimate way for pilots to hone their SA and communications skills. However, it all depends on the two pilots and how effectively they utilize their time in the air. As far as the FAA and industry are concerned the time is valuable.

-LAFF

LAfrequentflyer
01-26-2007, 03:32 AM
The best deal of all:

http://www.erau.edu/db/flightdb/index.html

LOL...

The Embry-Riddle flight training program provides the actual hands-on flight experience segment for our four-year Bachelor of Science in Aeronautical Science degree.

Our approach to aviation education gives our students The Embry-Riddle Edge -- added value over other collegiate flight training programs -- an edge that lands our students the best jobs in the aviation industry.

Here's why: The flight program at Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University is more than just a way to earn ratings -- it is a true professional pilot course. Students fly in an airline- or corporate-style environment: they are professionally dispatched and supervised and use flight procedures that closely resemble those of the airlines.

LAfrequentflyer
01-26-2007, 03:33 AM
hahaha damn this is getting ridiculous

There is nothing ridiculous about a lively debate without name calling / making it personal. This forum needs more threads like this one.

-LAFF

NE_Pilot
01-26-2007, 08:53 AM
Thank you for writing the above statement. You have to work hard and pass at min. time - which is all that is required by the FAA to be awarded your ratings. There is no need to be logging anything beyond the published FAA mins for flight training. Doing so is a waste of your money.

-LAFF

Are you saying that iall students are ready to pass their checkride once they hit the minimum time required?? Or that if you aren't ready you should not pursue flying?? The average time nation-wide is atleast 10-20 hours over the minimum.

I completely disagree that there is no need to log anything past the FAA minimums. There is a learning curve, and there are plataus in flight training, not everyone is alike and therefore not everyone will get everything the first time through. Very few people get through without getting stuck somewhere along the line. There will be things that will take you longer to learn, and some things you will get right away.

To get everything in on minimum time is not always a good thing, you learn alot more when you make mistakes, then when you get it right the first time.

Not true. The FAA and the industry value safety time as a legitimate way for pilots to hone their SA and communications skills. However, it all depends on the two pilots and how effectively they utilize their time in the air. As far as the FAA and industry are concerned the time is valuable.

-LAFF


I am not saying it is not legitimate. It is perfectly legal to log it. However, I do not believe it is of the same value as actually flying the aircraft. Its not bad to safety pilot every once and awhile, helps you to see things differently, observe, and learn. It is not the same as actually flying the cross-country, and I feel that you get more from doing the cross-country, then looking out the window for other aircraft. Just because it is legal doesn't make it a good choice, a newly rated instrument pilot, who has no actual time, can legally take off 0-0, fly in hard IMC for 3 hours and do a full approach down to minimums by himself, and with passengers if he wants, its all legal, but its not a good idea. I know that is a little different situation, but you seem to be caught up on if its legal then its ok.

I, personally, prefer to have well over half of my PIC XC time to be actual flying and not Safety Pilot time. Thats what my time is like, and that is what I have seen to work. I have yet to meet anyone who has half of their time being Safety Pilot time, but if I did it would definately raise some flags for me, but that is just me.

LAfrequentflyer
01-26-2007, 09:23 AM
Are you saying that iall students are ready to pass their checkride once they hit the minimum time required?? Or that if you aren't ready you should not pursue flying?? The average time nation-wide is atleast 10-20 hours over the minimum.

I completely disagree that there is no need to log anything past the FAA minimums. There is a learning curve, and there are plataus in flight training, not everyone is alike and therefore not everyone will get everything the first time through. Very few people get through without getting stuck somewhere along the line. There will be things that will take you longer to learn, and some things you will get right away.

To get everything in on minimum time is not always a good thing, you learn alot more when you make mistakes, then when you get it right the first time.



I am not saying it is not legitimate. It is perfectly legal to log it. However, I do not believe it is of the same value as actually flying the aircraft. Its not bad to safety pilot every once and awhile, helps you to see things differently, observe, and learn. It is not the same as actually flying the cross-country, and I feel that you get more from doing the cross-country, then looking out the window for other aircraft. Just because it is legal doesn't make it a good choice, a newly rated instrument pilot, who has no actual time, can legally take off 0-0, fly in hard IMC for 3 hours and do a full approach down to minimums by himself, and with passengers if he wants, its all legal, but its not a good idea. I know that is a little different situation, but you seem to be caught up on if its legal then its ok.

I, personally, prefer to have well over half of my PIC XC time to be actual flying and not Safety Pilot time. Thats what my time is like, and that is what I have seen to work. I have yet to meet anyone who has half of their time being Safety Pilot time, but if I did it would definately raise some flags for me, but that is just me.

Thanks for your well thought out and passionate response.

Its obvious we have different views on flight training. I wish you all the best in your life.

V/r,
LAFF

www.allatps.com

DMEarc
01-26-2007, 09:29 AM
25 Hours is not that bad to solo.

I know a guy where I instructed to failed his Private Single 5 times. His Private Multi 3 times, and his instrument 4 times. There are worse out there than 25 hours to solo.

NOT A BIG DEAL WHATSOEVER.

ATP blows.

Slice
01-26-2007, 09:47 AM
Thanks for your well thought out and passionate response.

Its obvious we have different views on flight training. I wish you all the best in your life.

V/r,
LAFF

deleted

The difference is NE_Pilot's views seem to come from real world experience, not glossy brochures.

LAfrequentflyer
01-26-2007, 09:52 AM
The difference is NE_Pilot's views seem to come from real world experience, not glossy brochures.

Mine also come from real world experience. They don't agree with yours- we've established this already so you feel compelled to take a jab from time to time.

-LAFF

Puppyz
01-26-2007, 10:05 AM
You don't even have any real experience with ATP. Infact most of your posts are just a bunch of bullsh!t backed up by no real knowledge of what you are talking about.

LAfrequentflyer
01-26-2007, 11:23 AM
You don't even have any real experience with ATP. Infact most of your posts are just a bunch of bullsh!t backed up by no real knowledge of what you are talking about.

Whats your point?

I've said it over and over againg - i have no experience with ATP except to have researched flight training options and found them to be a good / one of the better deals out there.

I also encourage people to do their own research and find the solution that works best for them...

BTW - thatnks for your posts...

-LAFF

Puppyz
01-26-2007, 12:05 PM
You don't even have any real experience with ATP. Infact most of your posts are just a bunch of bullsh!t backed up by no real knowledge of what you are talking about.

That is my point.

You keep bringing down the FBO and keep praising ATP. You have no idea what you are talking about. Just because you felt like 1 FBO gave u a hard time doesn't mean they are all bad. You have numerous times stated ''ATP is the only place to consider".
When it comes to quality of flight training you believe ATP is the best. Then you go and down experienced instructors thinking they are being paid to relive their glory days. Assuming they are out to rip off their students. Have you ever thought maybe they instruct for fun because they love to teach??? You say that learning anything more then the minimum required is a waste of money and time. You really have no idea what you are talking about.

LAfrequentflyer
01-26-2007, 12:57 PM
That is my point.

You keep bringing down the FBO and keep praising ATP. You have no idea what you are talking about. Just because you felt like 1 FBO gave u a hard time doesn't mean they are all bad. You have numerous times stated ''ATP is the only place to consider".
When it comes to quality of flight training you believe ATP is the best. Then you go and down experienced instructors thinking they are being paid to relive their glory days. Assuming they are out to rip off their students. Have you ever thought maybe they instruct for fun because they love to teach??? You say that learning anything more then the minimum required is a waste of money and time. You really have no idea what you are talking about.

There are exceptions. However, most of the FBO CFIs will take you for a ride - its in their best interest. Thats how they make their money.

-LAFF

samc
01-26-2007, 02:30 PM
I have experienced FBO, AF, ATP,and by proxy RAA. Fire away....

Or just be VERY careful when you chose where you go to flight training and don't expect to find many reputable people along your way no matter where you go, and you'll be fine.

TankerBob
01-26-2007, 03:28 PM
LAFF - Thats how ATP makes its money as well.

LAfrequentflyer
01-26-2007, 03:58 PM
LAFF - Thats how ATP makes its money as well.

For a hard-working, studious future pro pilot they also deliver on their promise as advertised - in the vast majority of the cases.

-LAFF

TankerBob
01-26-2007, 04:16 PM
I think all training facilities should be careful of the "promises" that they make. The industry is changing way to much and money can leave faster than it can come, believing and trusting the so called promises of flight schools is risky either way you look at.

LAfrequentflyer
01-26-2007, 04:22 PM
I think all training facilities should be careful of the "promises" that they make. The industry is changing way to much and money can leave faster than it can come, believing and trusting the so called promises of flight schools is risky either way you look at.

I agree with the above. However, an organization with a proven track record and a good reputation for delivering on its promised / advertised price and package is in my book a acceptable risk.

V.r

LAFF

Look, most of you don't like me. That's fine. I can't please everyone and I'm not trying to. I'm glad this post has not degraded to name calling and threats...

TankerBob
01-26-2007, 04:36 PM
I'll never name call or threaten for that matter... AND I never said I didn't like you!!:D


Most of us are just defending something that has been around much longer in the aviation world than ATP and that this the local FBO. Some of us wouldn't be anywhere near what and where we are without the local FBOs. You pedal the line from ATP and that makes people upset, mostly when you say yourself that you haven't even been there yet to train. If ATP is a perfect fit for you then thats great, but be easy with pushing it on others, and dogging on some of the other schools.

You are a very enthusiastic person about flying I hope you keep that! Sometimes people lose that, especially at those big flight schools. I know after my Riddle time (which I am happy I did thank you very much) it took a little while to enjoy, really enjoy, flying for fun again. Then I went to Air Force, and well.... Thats all I have to say about that.

Anyways... to the original poster I don't think that you need to worry much about how many hours it takes you to do anything. You just need to get your ratings and get hours. Not everyone is the same and learn at the same pace so stop comparing yourself to other students ( I know you are ) and just learn.

POPA
01-26-2007, 09:00 PM
There are exceptions. However, most of the FBO CFIs will take you for a ride - its in their best interest. Thats how they make their money.

-LAFF

Wrong - as usual.
Flight instructors make their money by doing a good job instructing their students and getting recommended to other students. When I was instructing, I made it my job to tailor the instruction to what the student needed - not which columns in my logbook I wanted to fill up that week. If you make your student happy, they will tell other people about you. An extra student is worth a lot more money than an extra .2 per lesson.