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View Full Version : Gear up landing with CFI


bbj7
04-02-2015, 08:10 PM
Hi guys,
We ( me and my instructor ) had an incident, gear up landing. It was my second flight in Arrow, working on complex aircraft endorsement. The circumstances were a bit unusual, everything happened too fast, plus the gear warning horn didn't work after full flaps extended, so we're overlooked the three greens and landed gear up. FAA visited the school and interviewed only my instructor and told him to do 907 ride and his record is going show this incident for 5 years. They never talked to me. Chief pilot called and asked me how many hours I have in type, last 90 days and last year. My question is how it will affect my record?
Thank you!


LR2205
04-02-2015, 09:10 PM
Since you were working on your endorsement that means you were not yet endorsed in the aircraft yet at the point of the accident. I don't think you can be PIC of an aircraft for which you are not type rated or endorsed to fly in. That being said, your instructor was PIC of that aircraft. It will affect him for sure. Not sure how it will affect you though.

Muredhawk
04-02-2015, 10:00 PM
Don't sweat it
Learn and move on...


GrassLandings
04-02-2015, 10:16 PM
Since you were working on your endorsement that means you were not yet endorsed in the aircraft yet at the point of the accident. I don't think you can be PIC of an aircraft for which you are not type rated or endorsed to fly in. That being said, your instructor was PIC of that aircraft. It will affect him for sure. Not sure how it will affect you though.

This. Plus, seems like the FAA has already done what they normally do. Since they had the CFI retake his checkride and he was PIC, hardly talked to you, Id say its safe to say you are in the clear for any future happenings with this accident.

Are you going to be a commercial/professional pilot?

(Take a deep breath,:D I have good news compared to your CFI. Even he/she can follow this below actually, and be just fine in todays market)

I ask because in future job applications you may be asked "Have you ever been involved in an aircraft accident or incident?". You would be wise to tell the truth, involving this incident/accident. Since the FAA talked to you there is a record of it. Even more than 5 years from now, it can easily be found. (Tell the truth, employers dont like people who hide stuff knowingly when asked a direct question)
In the eyes of the FAA you are %100 not liable. I mean, it was your first lesson or two in a retractable, and your CFI didnt make sure the gear was down. The mud isnt on your hands here. End of story.
But....Yes you were the student, not type rated or endorsed... However you were a licensed pilot in a single engine aircraft, and could have prevented the accident.
This sort of thing wont negatively affect you in the future. Easily explainable, plus you can explain how you learned a valuable lesson you wont soon forget, and no violations. Just dont hide it. I know I wouldnt.

You are good to go.

(Edit: I see now that they did not talk to you, but this advice still stands IMO since you were in the aircraft) :)

OnCenterline
04-03-2015, 12:39 AM
Hi guys,
We ( me and my instructor ) had an incident, gear up landing. It was my second flight in Arrow, working on complex aircraft endorsement. The circumstances were a bit unusual, everything happened too fast, plus the gear warning horn didn't work after full flaps extended, so we're overlooked the three greens and landed gear up. FAA visited the school and interviewed only my instructor and told him to do 907 ride and his record is going show this incident for 5 years. They never talked to me. Chief pilot called and asked me how many hours I have in type, last 90 days and last year. My question is how it will affect my record?
Thank you!

I would suggest calling the Legal Services folks at AOPA. They deal with this stuff every day, and give you the most accurate, honest advice.

dl773
04-03-2015, 06:02 AM
Delete..............

bbj7
04-03-2015, 07:02 AM
Thank you so much guys for your answers and suggestions!

rickair7777
04-03-2015, 09:44 AM
No you are not at fault.

Hint: While you could legally log sole manipulator PIC it might be best not to do so for those two flight! Don't try to erase it if you already logged it though.

Downside is that you will need to check the yes box about incidents (or accidents if enough damage occurred to meet the FAA definition). This will not hurt you at the interview since you were not complex endorsed and had almost no complex time. But it may possibly move your app further down the stack so you might not get called as quickly by the majors. But plenty of other folks have to check various boxes as well.

bbj7
04-03-2015, 10:48 AM
Thank you!

PerfInit
04-03-2015, 03:04 PM
Now for the other part- FAA completes Form 8020-23 for accidents. PIC's name will be listed. These forms are a permanent record in the airman's file. It is possible that the student's name will also be listed, but only as an occupant. The OP might want to make a FOIA request to get a copy of the accident report, particularly to see if his name is listed therein.

bbj7
04-03-2015, 04:08 PM
Now for the other part- FAA completes Form 8020-23 for accidents. PIC's name will be listed. These forms are a permanent record in the airman's file. It is possible that the student's name will also be listed, but only as an occupant. The OP might want to make a FOIA request to get a copy of the accident report, particularly to see if his name is listed therein.

That's what I thought. Because information about total hours, hours in type and hours last year, which the chief pilot asked me was as I think for this 8020-23 form. So I think I need to request my pilot record from FAA.
Thank You!

JohnBurke
04-03-2015, 05:20 PM
Hi guys,
We ( me and my instructor ) had an incident, gear up landing. It was my second flight in Arrow, working on complex aircraft endorsement. The circumstances were a bit unusual, everything happened too fast, plus the gear warning horn didn't work after full flaps extended, so we're overlooked the three greens and landed gear up. FAA visited the school and interviewed only my instructor and told him to do 907 ride and his record is going show this incident for 5 years. They never talked to me. Chief pilot called and asked me how many hours I have in type, last 90 days and last year. My question is how it will affect my record?
Thank you!

What was "unusual" about it?

You're going to be asked if you've ever been involved in an accident or incident. For the remainder of your career, the answer to that question is "yes."

When given the chance to explain, it shouldn't be a problem. The difficulty arises when you're asked that during the application process, and that ends the process for you.

When you are asked about it, make sure you can give a thorough, detailed account, and whatever you do, don't try to pass it off on the instructor. Paint it as a learning experience (as it will be), and move on.

hindsight2020
04-03-2015, 08:54 PM
gotta love that zero-mark employment vetting process. Ah, the joys of labor surpluses....

JamesNoBrakes
04-04-2015, 03:54 AM
That's what I thought. Because information about total hours, hours in type and hours last year, which the chief pilot asked me was as I think for this 8020-23 form. So I think I need to request my pilot record from FAA.
Thank You!

-23 forms do not go in airman files, so you won't see anything. When a company makes a pria request to the FAA, the accident/incident will show on the PICs record, but yours should not show anything. The FAA knows you were there, but that information is not used for anything. It's always a great idea to get a copy of your pilot records though.

bbj7
04-04-2015, 08:48 AM
-23 forms do not go in airman files, so you won't see anything. When a company makes a pria request to the FAA, the accident/incident will show on the PICs record, but yours should not show anything. The FAA knows you were there, but that information is not used for anything. It's always a great idea to get a copy of your pilot records though.

Thank you for your answer! What about FOIA request? Is it going to show an incident in that request?

JamesNoBrakes
04-04-2015, 09:39 AM
Thank you for your answer! What about FOIA request? Is it going to show an incident in that request?

If what is being FOIAed is your pilot record, probably not, because like I said, -23s don't go into your airman record files kept by OKC. Get your records to be sure of course.

bbj7
04-04-2015, 10:03 AM
If what is being FOIAed is your pilot record, probably not, because like I said, -23s don't go into your airman record files kept by OKC. Get your records to be sure of course.

I definitely will. What's the way of obtaining the pilot records? Mail request to the FAA or visit local FSDO?

JamesNoBrakes
04-04-2015, 03:33 PM
I definitely will. What's the way of obtaining the pilot records? Mail request to the FAA or visit local FSDO?

Found in about 30s with Google

https://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificates/airmen_certification/copy_of_certification_records/

bbj7
04-04-2015, 08:53 PM
Found in about 30s with Google

https://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificates/airmen_certification/copy_of_certification_records/

Yes, that's what I meant by mailing the request to the FAA. Also I have read somewhere that it is possible to get it at the local FSDO.
Thank you for the info and for your help!

JamesNoBrakes
04-05-2015, 04:43 AM
Yes, that's what I meant by mailing the request to the FAA. Also I have read somewhere that it is possible to get it at the local FSDO.
Thank you for the info and for your help!

No, has to come from OKC, sorry.

rickair7777
04-05-2015, 06:44 AM
Yes, that's what I meant by mailing the request to the FAA. Also I have read somewhere that it is possible to get it at the local FSDO.
Thank you for the info and for your help!

If you're about this incident being in records, I would wait a number of months before you request the info.

bbj7
04-05-2015, 07:11 AM
If you're about this incident being in records, I would wait a number of months before you request the info.

That's make sense. I will request it when finish CPL and multi-engine add-on. Thanks

bbj7
04-05-2015, 07:13 AM
No, has to come from OKC, sorry.

Ok, Thank You!

Tippy
04-18-2015, 07:55 PM
i would like to take the time to say please please please use this as a learning experience more than being concerned about a black spot on your record (although it is a valid concern). Im sure you probably have. like others have said this is not your fault, your CFI should have not gone 10 seconds without noticing the gear were not indicating green, and should have briefed you on the procedure before even stepping into the plane. "there are pilots who have landed gear up and pilots who will land gear up." (I have mixed emotions on this saying) Follow the checklist and this will not happen again EVER. again i lay blame on the CFI not you, he didn't do his job. but as a current CFI myself i find it hard to believe this actually happened. you cannot check the gear enough, ...grain of salt.... i teach my guys do not even remove your hand from the gear lever until you verify 3 green, then check again turning base, then again turning final.

again Do not let this worry you about your record, let it teach you what not to when u become a CFI someday.

Kritchlow
04-18-2015, 08:24 PM
i would like to take the time to say please please please use this as a learning experience more than being concerned about a black spot on your record (although it is a valid concern). Im sure you probably have. like others have said this is not your fault, your CFI should have not gone 10 seconds without noticing the gear were not indicating green, and should have briefed you on the procedure before even stepping into the plane. "there are pilots who have landed gear up and pilots who will land gear up." (I have mixed emotions on this saying) Follow the checklist and this will not happen again EVER. again i lay blame on the CFI not you, he didn't do his job. but as a current CFI myself i find it hard to believe this actually happened. you cannot check the gear enough, ...grain of salt.... i teach my guys do not even remove your hand from the gear lever until you verify 3 green, then check again turning base, then again turning final.

again Do not let this worry you about your record, let it teach you what not to when u become a CFI someday.
Stuff happens. People make mistakes, even very good pilots... That includes CFI's.

bbj7
04-21-2015, 05:29 PM
That was definitely a valuable experience. Learned the lesson hard way.
Thank you guys!



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