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blaquehawk99
04-11-2015, 06:12 AM
This hasn't happened yet, but I think it is likely to pass.

https://www.congress.gov/bill/114th-congress/house-bill/476

The most important part to trainees is this:

"Prohibits VA from including flight training fees in the in-state tuition and fees at public institutions of higher education (IHEs) that are covered by post-9/11 veterans' educational assistance. Requires post-9/11 veterans' educational assistance for flight training programs at public IHEs to be determined in the same manner as such assistance for education programs pursued at non-public or foreign IHEs is determined."

As of right now the VA, through the Post 9/11 GI Bill pays 100% of tuition and flight training fees at public institutions and a maximum of $20,000 at private schools. I think (and someone correct me if I am wrong) that this is saying that the max allowed for all schools, public or private will be whatever the national max is for a given academic year. The Montgomery GI bill 60/40 plan and the Post 9/11 GI Bill's vocational amount of $10,000 per academic year will remain unchanged.

I intend to write a letter to my congressman, Adam Smith, in an attempt to stop or change this bill. It will look a little some thing like this:

Greetings Mr. Smith,

My name is Brett Williams. I am currently in the US Army, stationed at Joint Base Lewis-McChord and I live in Tacoma. I am writing to you to bring you attention to a Bill sponsored by your colleague Representative Brad R. Wenstrup of Ohio's 2nd District. He has introduced Bill H.R.476. (https://www.congress.gov/bill/114th-congress/house-bill/476). This bill seeks to change the way the VA, through the Post 9/11 GI Bill, pays for flight training at public Colleges and Universities. Here is an excerpt of the summary:

"Prohibits VA from including flight training fees in the in-state tuition and fees at public institutions of higher education (IHEs) that are covered by post-9/11 veterans' educational assistance. Requires post-9/11 veterans' educational assistance for flight training programs at public IHEs to be determined in the same manner as such assistance for education programs pursued at non-public or foreign IHEs is determined."

As of right now the VA, through the Post 9/11 GI Bill, pays 100% of tuition and flight training fees at public institutions and a maximum of $20,000 per academic year at private schools. This Bill will make it so that public institutions would be limited to the same maximum benefit that could be used at a private school.

The purpose of this Bill is to stop the abuse of the Post 9/11 GI Bill. A few charlatans have found a way to bilk the VA for hundreds of thousands of dollars per student. This article in the LA Times explains what some people have been doing.

U.S. taxpayers stuck with the tab as helicopter flight schools exploit GI Bill loophole - LA Times (http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-me-adv-gibill-20150315-story.html#page=1)

To summarize, some schools and their students have been using the GI Bill to pay for more than flight training. They have been using it to pay for “time building”.

The businesses that employ pilots usually require a minimum number of flight hours in order for a pilot to qualify for a job. Traditionally pilots accumulate the needed hours by becoming a Certified Flight Instructor and teaching new pilots how to fly. Many others take on jobs such as banner towing or become sky dive pilots. In order to become an airline pilot, pilots must accumulate 1500 hours to qualify as Airline Transport Pilots or ATP's. The accumulation of the needed hours are the responsibility of the pilot and should not paid for by the Post 9/11 GI Bill.

I agree with Mr. Wenstrup that something needs to be done to prevent the abuse of the Post 9/11 GI Bill. But what he proposes is too arbitrary and has the potential to discourage veterans from using this benefit. America now faces a pilot shortage that has the potential to cripple our country's airline industry. I believe the shortage is due, in part, to the high cost of training. Pilots pay upwards of $100,000 to become pilots, and then face low wages at regional airlines. That reality has caused many people to turn away from what could be a highly rewarding career. I believe we should be encouraging people to become pilots. I think the Post 9/11 GI Bill goes a long way in that regard. It is a good recruiting tool for the Armed Services and could become a good recruiting tool for the aviation industry as well.

As I have mentioned earlier, I agree with Mr. Wenstrup that something needs to be done to prevent the abuse of the Post 9/11 GI Bill. If I may be so bold, I would like to propose a change that would be more reasonable than an arbitrary limit of $20,000 per academic year.
I propose that the Post 9/11 GI Bill, when used at a public institution for flight training, to be limited to the following:

1. The certificates necessary to gain employment which are: Private Pilot, Instrument Flight Rules (IFR) pilot, Single-Engine and Multi-Engine Commercial pilot, Certified Flight Instructor, Certified Flight Instructor-Instrument, and Multi-Engine Instructor.
2. Limited to the minimum hours plus 30% required by FAA CFR part 141 for the above listed certificates. For example: FAA CFR part 141 Appendix B requires a minimum of 35 hours of flight training to earn a Private Pilots Certificate. Add 30% more time, if needed, for the student to complete the course. That’s a total of 45.5 hours, roughly the amount of hours the average pilot needs to earn their Private Pilots Certificate.

Another potential change could be to the way the Post 9/11 GI Bill handles vocational training. Vocational training is limited to $10,000 per academic year. Considering the expense of flight training, I feel flight training should be treated differently. I think removing the monetary limit and imposing the limits set in the previous paragraph, specifically for flight training, would go a long way in encouraging veterans to use the Post GI Bill benefit responsibly and discourage abuse.

I want Representative Wenstrup to help prevent abuse of the Post 9/11 GI Bill. I just think a well reasoned approach, that takes in to consideration the costs of flight training, is the way to go.


Before I fire off this letter to my congressman would any of you like to chime in on this subject?


ASaintBernard
04-11-2015, 07:59 AM
I paid for all of my flight training and a college out of pocket. You will find a lot of people don't really disagree with what the bill is proposing. I don't have an opinion either way but flight training and college can be bought with wages earned and not just the GI Bill.

Jato
04-11-2015, 08:55 AM
That looks great, but I think you need to remind people how you qualify for the post 9-11 gibill. When you remind them that that gibill equals over a year away from there family in a war zone they may be less likely to try and take it. That's for the guard or reserve guy to get that benefit. One way or another everyone pays, with time or money.


JohnBurke
04-11-2015, 01:24 PM
That looks great, but I think you need to remind people how you qualify for the post 9-11 gibill. When you remind them that that gibill equals over a year away from there family in a war zone they may be less likely to try and take it. That's for the guard or reserve guy to get that benefit. One way or another everyone pays, with time or money.

A lot of us have made those sacrifices, plus paid out of pocket.

11B flyer
04-11-2015, 02:37 PM
I'm a UH-60 Guy that's doing a add on and then time building (all fixed wing). The program I'm in is VA approved which is one of the biggest reasons I choose it, and found out about this new proposed bill today from my DE giving my checkride and it has me worried. Its sad to see benefits exploited by service members and education establishments but for those of us that utilize the benefits we EARNED to advance our education and career honestly, this will be a huge loss. Thanks for taking the time to write to your congressman I will follow your lead and do the same now that its been brought to my attention.

Also, hope Upper limit and any other schools are held accountable for defrauding the Gov. and loose their privilege's from the VA.

Fluglehrer
04-12-2015, 12:42 PM
A lot of us have made those sacrifices, plus paid out of pocket.
John, were you in the service, or a contracted pilot?'
If you were a contracted pilot, thanks for your service to the war effort in a combat zone. Just remember that there is a difference between your knowledge of your contract before committing and the more open-ended nature of a military commitment. They are not the same (and I'm not sure that's what you are saying, it just seems you are saying they are equivalent when you said "a lot of us have made those sacrifices")

Fluglehrer
04-12-2015, 12:51 PM
I paid for all of my flight training and a college out of pocket. You will find a lot of people don't really disagree with what the bill is proposing. I don't have an opinion either way but flight training and college can be bought with wages earned and not just the GI Bill.
The Montgomery GI Bill required 40% be paid by the student. I think the "skin in the game" aspect of that 40% is valuable to prevent abuse. Maybe there could be a cap of $20,000 per year, and anything above that is paid at only 50% (up to another cap). There should probably be a cap put on the GI Bill overall that is easily discernible, such as $200,000 over the life of the bill. A typical non-flight training college student is not using more than about $25,000 per year if they are pursuing a B.A./B.S. degree at a state school.

JohnBurke
04-12-2015, 02:20 PM
John, were you in the service, or a contracted pilot?'
If you were a contracted pilot, thanks for your service to the war effort in a combat zone. Just remember that there is a difference between your knowledge of your contract before committing and the more open-ended nature of a military commitment. They are not the same (and I'm not sure that's what you are saying, it just seems you are saying they are equivalent when you said "a lot of us have made those sacrifices")

A lot of us have made sacrifices in a lot of different ways.

Let's not forget that the military pilot has all his training paid for and lives his career at a substantially higher pay with greater benefits than any equivalent civil position, particularly with regard to the level of experience and time in service.

The civil pilot, in the meantime, has paid for his own training, and his military counterpart's training, and for the service member separating and using the GI bill, that person's flight training, too.

A police officer and a firefighter spend their careers for far less money, putting their lives on the line. Nobody offers them flight training as a perk. On and on it goes. Everyone else has to foot the bill for their own training, and scratch their own career out of the rock.

A year of overseas deployment isn't exactly a hardship.

As for contractor v. military; yes, there is a difference. The service member gets a flag on his coffin.

Swakid8
04-12-2015, 02:57 PM
A lot of us have made sacrifices in a lot of different ways.



Let's not forget that the military pilot has all his training paid for and lives his career at a substantially higher pay with greater benefits than any equivalent civil position, particularly with regard to the level of experience and time in service.



The civil pilot, in the meantime, has paid for his own training, and his military counterpart's training, and for the service member separating and using the GI bill, that person's flight training, too.



A police officer and a firefighter spend their careers for far less money, putting their lives on the line. Nobody offers them flight training as a perk. On and on it goes. Everyone else has to foot the bill for their own training, and scratch their own career out of the rock.



A year of overseas deployment isn't exactly a hardship.



As for contractor v. military; yes, there is a difference. The service member gets a flag on his coffin.


Don't undermine a lot of our different missions. There have been many of us who have spent more that a year on deployment.

I for one am using the gi bill for my flight training after giving 9 years of my life living underwater. Hate to have that pulled up from underneath. I would be for a cap on gi bill paying up to MEI through a state school.


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Payd2Fly
04-12-2015, 03:45 PM
A lot of us have made sacrifices in a lot of different ways.



Let's not forget that the military pilot has all his training paid for and lives his career at a substantially higher pay with greater benefits than any equivalent civil position, particularly with regard to the level of experience and time in service.



The civil pilot, in the meantime, has paid for his own training, and his military counterpart's training, and for the service member separating and using the GI bill, that person's flight training, too.



A police officer and a firefighter spend their careers for far less money, putting their lives on the line. Nobody offers them flight training as a perk. On and on it goes. Everyone else has to foot the bill for their own training, and scratch their own career out of the rock.



A year of overseas deployment isn't exactly a hardship.



As for contractor v. military; yes, there is a difference. The service member gets a flag on his coffin.


Maybe you should sack up, join up and put your theory to the test. You strike me as the kind of guy who gains a lot of courage from behind your keyboard.

Fluglehrer
04-12-2015, 04:08 PM
Let's not forget that the military pilot has all his training paid for and lives his career at a substantially higher pay with greater benefits than any equivalent civil position, particularly with regard to the level of experience and time in service.

The civil pilot, in the meantime, has paid for his own training, and his military counterpart's training, and for the service member separating and using the GI bill, that person's flight training, too.


John, not only did you pull yourself up by your own bootstraps, you pulled all us military/GI Bill folks up by your own bootstraps too!

JohnBurke
04-12-2015, 05:04 PM
There have been many of us who have spent more that a year on deployment.

I for one am using the gi bill for my flight training after giving 9 years of my life living underwater.

A considerable number of years of my life had been spent away, many of it overseas, many of it living in houses, containers, tents.

None of it underwater, however. To this day that's a wold that I can't quite wrap my mind around, and hat's off to those who do.

Toonces
04-12-2015, 05:30 PM
Let's not forget that the military pilot has all his training paid for and lives his career at a substantially higher pay with greater benefits than any equivalent civil position, particularly with regard to the level of experience and time in service.



The civil pilot, in the meantime, has paid for his own training, and his military counterpart's training, and for the service member separating and using the GI bill, that person's flight training, too.



A police officer and a firefighter spend their careers for far less money, putting their lives on the line. Nobody offers them flight training as a perk. On and on it goes. Everyone else has to foot the bill for their own training, and scratch their own career out of the rock.


Let's also not forget that the military is not training you to be a pilot, they are training you to be an officer and a warrior. The elevated level of pay and benefits is typically a product of the elevated level of responsibility you hold. Being a good pilot is expected; being a good officer and military professional is rewarded.

The civil pilot has certainly paid for their own training, but so has a lawyer or business professional. Do they also hold the same grudge against separating military who train for a new career on the American public's dime? Tell them to vote their opinion.

Police officers and firefighters ARE offered flight training as a perk! It just depends on the department. The federal government has more resources to provide this benefit so it is far rarer for a local government to recruit their aviation departments from their own ranks.

JohnBurke, all of your posts here indicate you have some sort of grudge. Get over it. It's petty and immature.


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manifesto1988
06-05-2015, 07:16 AM
I intend to write a letter to my congressman, Adam Smith, in an attempt to stop or change this bill. It will look a little some thing like this:


Any luck with getting a response from Mr. Smith?

buccirj
06-05-2015, 10:20 PM
Maybe you should sack up, join up and put your theory to the test. You strike me as the kind of guy who gains a lot of courage from behind your keyboard.

Well said my friend. How does anyone that was NOT a military operator have the nerve, and the balls, to try to justify such comments made. Sounds like pure damn jealousy to me. One can not compare a fire fighter or cop to the military. I'm AD Air Force and also a CSAR aviator, been in 22 years and about to retire and also go to flight school so I can put my life long dream, experience to use.

If it were up to me, I'd say cops and fire fighters should also get such a great benefit as the GI Bill or something of the kind. But they don't have to go and die in a ****-hole land for someone else's cause. Someone said, "year deployment isn't exactly a hardship" well maybe for the most part. But how many families have endured that over the years? Year on, year off deployments? Or sitting in a C.O.P on some crap mountain in Afghanistan getting shot at daily by an enemy we can't defeat?

It makes me physically irritated when non-military guys/gals or even worse someone that once was military chip in their 2 cents on how we should not ***** about the GI Bill. ****es me off!

But there is hope. I've talked to a school in Vegas, and their affiliate in VA and there are schools that are already prepping for this Bill change and we can still get our training done. Thankfully!

So don't despair. I was pretty worried too but we will still be able to get our flight training. It just will have restrictions and if schools are ethical and diligent, they will provide training within the VA constraints. Let's just hope they can deliver under such restraints and the VA don't fully pull the funding.

JohnBurke
06-05-2015, 11:59 PM
Being a good pilot is expected; being a good officer and military professional is rewarded.


https://s.yimg.com/fz/api/res/1.2/ncy0_9nkxUrTsMD3utnMaA--/YXBwaWQ9c3JjaGRkO2g9NjAwO3E9OTU7dz04MDA-/http://mywebpages.comcast.net/av8/onlinestorage/eject.jpg

Best of the best of the best.

USMCFLYR
06-06-2015, 02:44 AM
https://s.yimg.com/fz/api/res/1.2/ncy0_9nkxUrTsMD3utnMaA--/YXBwaWQ9c3JjaGRkO2g9NjAwO3E9OTU7dz04MDA-/http://mywebpages.comcast.net/av8/onlinestorage/eject.jpg

Best of the best of the best.
I don't think so.

blaquehawk99
06-06-2015, 02:09 PM
No response yet. The bill has had some movement when it was first introduced, but there hasn't been any action on it since April when it was Forwarded by Subcommittee to Full Committee in the Nature of a Substitute (Amended) by Voice Vote.

Bell0805
06-07-2015, 09:04 PM
I paid for all of my flight training and a college out of pocket. You will find a lot of people don't really disagree with what the bill is proposing. I don't have an opinion either way but flight training and college can be bought with wages earned and not just the GI Bill.


Confused with no understanding how you think a guy that goes to the military doesn't earn those benefits. We do many things for very little pay and that is one of the things we have EARNED. You sir can go and do the same thing no one is stopping you.

Vito
06-08-2015, 01:29 PM
Blaquehawk99,
My Son is finishing up his senior year at Kent State in the aviation Tech program
(Pilot) this is the first I heard of this and you have my attention. keep us posted if you hear anything else. I'll watch the status of this proposal as well. Hopefully, like all things in the government it will take years....or better yet die on the vine so others can utilize this earned benefit.

TheWeatherman
06-08-2015, 04:23 PM
A lot of us have made sacrifices in a lot of different ways.

Let's not forget that the military pilot has all his training paid for and lives his career at a substantially higher pay with greater benefits than any equivalent civil position, particularly with regard to the level of experience and time in service.

The civil pilot, in the meantime, has paid for his own training, and his military counterpart's training, and for the service member separating and using the GI bill, that person's flight training, too.

A police officer and a firefighter spend their careers for far less money, putting their lives on the line. Nobody offers them flight training as a perk. On and on it goes. Everyone else has to foot the bill for their own training, and scratch their own career out of the rock.

A year of overseas deployment isn't exactly a hardship.

As for contractor v. military; yes, there is a difference. The service member gets a flag on his coffin.
I was in the military and received no flight training. Do you think it is the pilots of the military using the post 9/11 GI bill for this purpose? If so, you are significantly misinformed. Most of them have enough hours to get hired right away. I am starting from scratch.

I will trade my 3.5 years living in Afghanistan and Iraq to your "overseas" away from the family work in Italy or Thailand or wherever your "hardship" was any day.

krudawg
06-08-2015, 05:20 PM
I was in the military and received no flight training. Do you think it is the pilots of the military using the post 9/11 GI bill for this purpose? If so, you are significantly misinformed. Most of them have enough hours to get hired right away. I am starting from scratch.

I will trade my 3.5 years living in Afghanistan and Iraq to your "overseas" away from the family work in Italy or Thailand or wherever your "hardship" was any day.

If I were king I would proclaim that any person who spent time in a combat zone, would never have to pay a federal tax ever! Just my two cents

JohnBurke
06-08-2015, 06:25 PM
I am starting from scratch.

I will trade my 3.5 years living in Afghanistan and Iraq to your "overseas" away from the family work in Italy or Thailand or wherever your "hardship" was any day.

Many of us started from scratch.

I spent five years between Iraq and Afghanistan. I never cried hardship.

I'll still end up paying for your flight training, too. Go figure.

TheWeatherman
06-08-2015, 06:35 PM
Many of us started from scratch.

I spent five years between Iraq and Afghanistan. I never cried hardship.

I'll still end up paying for your flight training, too. Go figure.

Should have took advantage of the GI Bill then.

Swakid8
06-08-2015, 08:10 PM
Should have took advantage of the GI Bill then.


This


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Orangemx
06-08-2015, 08:31 PM
I for one have no problem with the fact that I helped pay for our military pilots to get training so that I can be protected. I also have no problem knowing that I am helping some of our veterans become civilian pilots.

Sure... everybody pays with either time or money and it's true that civilians (who have never served) pay for every active duty pilot and returning vet to be trained in addition their own education. However, military personnel aren't exempt from paying taxes...unless they're deployed to combat.

I am truly grateful that I was able to utilize the gibill for my training. Im not sure how I would have been able to be where I am today.

JohnBurke
06-10-2015, 06:11 PM
Should have took advantage of the GI Bill then.

Irrelevant.

TheWeatherman
06-10-2015, 06:34 PM
Irrelevant.
ohh, so you must have been one of those contractors living in those cushy compounds on one of the main bases who bought up all the **** in the BX so when we came in from our POS FOB for a couple days, there was nothing left to buy.

JohnBurke
06-10-2015, 10:21 PM
ohh, so you must have been one of those contractors living in those cushy compounds on one of the main bases who bought up all the **** in the BX so when we came in from our POS FOB for a couple days, there was nothing left to buy.

You read a lot into a single word, don't you?

It's irrelevant because long before I spent time on behalf of the government, I had already obtained flight training on my own.

As for what you could or couldn't do as a fobbit, that's your problem. Don't whine about it here.

Not that it's really your concern, but I lived in a tent, primarily, as well as containerized housing. There was nothing "cushy" about the locations I lived. Is any of that relevant to the discussion? Hardly.

TheWeatherman
06-11-2015, 09:51 AM
You read a lot into a single word, don't you?

It's irrelevant because long before I spent time on behalf of the government, I had already obtained flight training on my own.

As for what you could or couldn't do as a fobbit, that's your problem. Don't whine about it here.

Not that it's really your concern, but I lived in a tent, primarily, as well as containerized housing. There was nothing "cushy" about the locations I lived. Is any of that relevant to the discussion? Hardly.
If I read too much into one word, that is entirely your fault for purposely being vague. You don't think I know the game you are trying to play by your one word responces?

As far as whining, the only one whining around here is you about veterans using the post 9/11 GI bill to pay for flight training.

P.S. Stop buying all the **** in the BX!



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