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View Full Version : Getting PPL after UPT washout


C12mintz
04-24-2015, 09:58 PM
Thanks in advance for any potential help!

I recently washed out of ENJJPT training for flying deficiency in the Formation phase of T-6 training. I had 97 military hours and approx. 18 logged civilian hours from flight screening in Pueblo. I've also had 51 simulator hours, but not sure how/if those count.

While I'm working on reclassification, I'd really like to get my PPL, but I've had a hard time getting good info. I know that students who complete UPT (roughly 230 hours) get a PPL, instrument rating, and a commercial license.

A local flight instructor told me I'd need to spend roughly 6 hours learning the 172, then I could take a written exam and do an FAA Checkride. Another guy told me there might be a way for my 3 (successful) Air Force check rides to count. I took a contact, advanced contact, and instrument check ride in UPT.

I'm in a sort of rare position here, does anyone have any ideas? Who would I reach out to?

Thanks again for all of your help!


galaxy flyer
04-25-2015, 03:56 AM
The hours will count, if they meet the requirements of Part 61. The checkrides won't. You should not need much more than the 6-10 hours the local CFI mentioned. You will have to show the cross country time req'ts which you probably don't have. Also the written and an instructor recommendation.

I've known two guys in your position, neither had great civilian careers, but that might be more a result of their times.

GF

satpak77
04-25-2015, 06:45 AM
Just curious but I thought it was "expected" that mil pilot applicants already had their PPL in hand


rickair7777
04-25-2015, 06:58 AM
Just curious but I thought it was "expected" that mil pilot applicants already had their PPL in hand

No. In the past a few would have a PPL or even an IR, but many or even most showed up "cold turkey".

Nowadays most military applicants get a handful of military-sponsored civilian ASEL hours as part of the screening process...maybe up to solo at the most.

rickair7777
04-25-2015, 07:25 AM
To the OP...

You get nothing in the way of ratings or checkrides. The hours count as aeronautical experience towards the PPL and other ratings so you might as well log them all. Total time, night, solo, IMC, LDGs all count.

What probably does not count is dual-received...in order for dual-received to count in your situation...

1) Instructor was a FAA CFI (or CFII for instrument training).
2) He documented the training and signed your logbook (or equivalent documentation)

So you probably will need most of the required dual training towards the PPL (minus whatever you got in screening).

The simulator time gets logged as simulator (and simulated IMC if applicable). If it was a full-motion sim with visuals, that goes under the simulator column. If it was FTD (ie non-motion or non-visual), I would log that under a separate FTD column.

Re. a civilian career...you would probably do just fine at that if you wanted to. Airline pilots don't do forms or acro, so that sort of stuff is not a huge predictor for civilian success. The fact that you screened for military training and made it as far as you did is a good sign...many (most?) RJ pilots wouldn't have even got that far :rolleyes:

Airlines will likely not hold the military washout against you if you have a successful civilian training history (ie don't bust any checkrides, and make sure your GA examiners are fair and consistent)

C12mintz
04-25-2015, 09:06 AM
Thanks for all the quick replies!

I'm wondering how UPT grads get all those licenses then... Must be some sort of FAA deal where they agreed to count a few of the checkrides and accept simulator time as solo XC. Looking at the FAA reqs that's the only thing I don't have.

In regards to career, I have no interest in commercial flying. Nothing against it, it's a fantastic opportunity, just never been my interest. I enjoy the idea of flying and figured it'd be a great way to serve my country, but obviously didn't have the coordination/SA required to fly at the tactical formation and/or (they projected) T-38 level. I did get a formation solo- awesome stuff! :-) Anyways my point is that I'm looking to get the PPL just to keep my recreational doors open.

In regards to hours- at ENJJPT it's intl program, most of the intl students have 50-100 hrs, Americans are mixed- some had 150-250 hours (all Guard/Reserve). Most of the Active a Duty ranged from zero prior to (18 hr) screening (me) to around 50. However a few were glider pilots with 200+ hrs so that helps. As others have stated the hours are a HUGE adv early on if you set the ego aside, by the time you get to T-38s, roughly 110 hours in, it's mostly equalized.

Twin Wasp
04-25-2015, 10:46 AM
There is a special rule (literally, 61.73 Military pilots ... :Special rules) that says if you're a qualified military pilot and you pass a FAA written test for military pilots you can get a commercial certificate and if you have passed a military instrument check ride you can get the instrument rating.

JamesNoBrakes
04-25-2015, 01:35 PM
There is a special rule (literally, 61.73 Military pilots ... :Special rules) that says if you're a qualified military pilot and you pass a FAA written test for military pilots you can get a commercial certificate and if you have passed a military instrument check ride you can get the instrument rating.

Well yeah, but it starts out with:

§61.73 Military pilots or former military pilots: Special rules.

(a) General. Except for a person who has been removed from flying status for lack of proficiency or because of a disciplinary action involving aircraft operations, a U.S. military pilot or former military pilot who meets the requirements of this section may apply, on the basis of his or her military pilot qualifications, for:

blastoff
04-25-2015, 02:45 PM
In accordance with the quoted reg above, USAF pilots take a written test for mil-civilian conversion at a testing center and then take their flight records folder to the FSDO (FSDO's local to a UPT base have the process streamlined) and get their Commercial with Single & Multi engine ratings, along with a BeechJet (BE400/MU300) type rating for T-1 drivers.

rickair7777
04-25-2015, 04:04 PM
BLUF: since the dude never qualified as a military pilot none of the FARs relevant to military pilots apply to him.

Twin Wasp
04-25-2015, 05:32 PM
I just threw it up there so the OP would know how the UPT grads did it. And if he looked up the reg he'd know it didn't apply to him.

Tweetdrvr
04-25-2015, 07:35 PM
Title: Section 61.41 - Flight training received from flight instructors not certificated by the FAA.
Context: Title 14 - Aeronautics and Space. CHAPTER I - FEDERAL AVIATION ADMINISTRATION, DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION (CONTINUED). SUBCHAPTER D - AIRMEN. PART 61 - CERTIFICATION: PILOTS, FLIGHT INSTRUCTORS, AND GROUND INSTRUCTORS. Subpart A - General.
§ 61.41Flight training received from flight instructors not certificated by the FAA.
(a) A person may credit flight training toward the requirements of a pilot certificate or rating issued under this part, if that person received the training from:
(1) A flight instructor of an Armed Force in a program for training military pilots of either—
(i) The United States; or
(ii) A foreign contracting State to the Convention on International Civil Aviation.
(2) A flight instructor who is authorized to give such training by the licensing authority of a foreign contracting State to the Convention on International Civil Aviation, and the flight training is given outside the United States.
(b) A flight instructor described in paragraph (a) of this section is only authorized to give endorsements to show training given.


This is what allows your time at UPT to help shortcut your private and instrument ratings.

Basically, I would have to get you safe in a GA plane, meet all the part 61 requirements to send you solo, then a short dual cross country to evaluate your navigation skills, then send you solo cross country to meet those solo x/c requirements. After that as soon as you pass my ground eval to prep for the oral and as soon as you can meet private PTS, you'd go take the check ride. I am guessing 5-8 hours of dual plus whatever solo time you needed. The Inst/Nav block should have taken care of all the night, simulated instrument time, and dual cross country time that you need.

Hopefully you have your gradebook and 781s from TIMs, if not get them before you leave KSPS, it's your training record.

Your instrument training has far exceeded the dual received requirements in an actual aircraft and logging all your UTD/IFT/OFT instrument sims as flight training device is icing on top of the cake for approach work and time. What you don't have and need would be the 50 hours PIC cross country time post private to get your instrument rating.

PM when you have enough posts to do so, if you need any more help/advice.

rickair7777
04-25-2015, 08:21 PM
Thanks for pointing that out. I was not aware that specific training flights could be counted as dual without standard faa endorsements.

Jato
04-26-2015, 09:14 AM
BLUF: since the dude never qualified as a military pilot none of the FARs relevant to military pilots apply to him.

You did not just use "BLUF" on open channels.... That type of language is reserved for trbs and all other three letter meetings we have, but not here!!!,

rickair7777
04-26-2015, 02:02 PM
It was tongue-in-cheek, and I was wrong anyway.

fiveninerzero
04-28-2015, 08:02 PM
With all of your instrument time, you should perhaps look into getting the combined Private/Instrument checkride that has been recently introduced; although I admittedly am not familiar with the details or how exactly that would be applied in your unique situation.

C12mintz
04-30-2015, 02:49 PM
Thanks for all of the help!

What I'm getting out of this and with talks with a private instructor is:

1- I need dual time to get qualled both for XC and for the checkride in general.

2- I'll need at least 6 hours dual for both of this

3- I'll need to do solo XC - PIC for the 5 hour reqs.

4- Pilot training (97 hrs!) covers the rest of the stuff- night, hours etc.

5- Regardless of the 20 hr dual req, I have 18 hrs from screening program, and I'll have the 6 above (1).

------

I was hoping I could just do a warm-up, checkride, and written test for my PPL, but it looks like it will cost me around $1500 and will still take roughly 11 hours more + exams.

I'm not complaining- hey, I did get washed out!

Regarding instrument rating, I'm planning (hoping) to cross-train into RPAs, and I'll get the instrument rating in the course of that.

Thanks for all the help again!

dckozak
04-30-2015, 03:36 PM
.......The fact that you screened for military training and made it as far as you did is a good sign...many (most?) RJ pilots wouldn't have even got that far :rolleyes:



Nice little dig at CIV pilots :rolleyes:

rickair7777
04-30-2015, 07:19 PM
Nice little dig at CIV pilots :rolleyes:

The majority of my FO's wouldn't have hacked it. A lot of that has to do with motivation, they're content with what they do.

sourdough44
05-09-2015, 07:05 AM
Stay on track for the PP license, and what may lie beyond. You already have a good base to build upon.

Hc130
11-10-2015, 02:46 PM
Hi I have Similar case here, flew T-6 With USAF, Passed the contact phase but washed out after the Instrument ride.

I got my PPL already (after upt)
trying to do Instrument rating now.

any thoughts on What should I do :confused:
and How do I use my previous mil hours toward getting the FAA license ??

THANKS

Adlerdriver
11-10-2015, 03:43 PM
I know that students who complete UPT (roughly 230 hours) get a PPL, instrument rating, and a commercial license. Maybe all the single engine T-6 time has changed things. When I finished UPT (T-37/T-38), we took a written test, did some paperwork and received a centerline thrust restricted multi-engine commercial pilots license. There was no "instrument rating" since that is already part of the commercial license. No one got a PPL.

Does the single engine T-6 time somehow qualify graduates for a PPL now? Do the T-1 track pilots get a ME commercial without the centerline thrust restriction?

Adlerdriver
11-10-2015, 04:17 PM
Thanks in advance for any potential help!

I recently washed out of ENJJPT training for flying deficiency in the Formation phase of T-6 training. I had 97 military hours and approx. 18 logged civilian hours from flight screening in Pueblo. I've also had 51 simulator hours, but not sure how/if those count.

While I'm working on reclassification, I'd really like to get my PPL, but I've had a hard time getting good info. I know that students who complete UPT (roughly 230 hours) get a PPL, instrument rating, and a commercial license.

A local flight instructor told me I'd need to spend roughly 6 hours learning the 172, then I could take a written exam and do an FAA Checkride. Another guy told me there might be a way for my 3 (successful) Air Force check rides to count. I took a contact, advanced contact, and instrument check ride in UPT.

I'm in a sort of rare position here, does anyone have any ideas? Who would I reach out to?

Thanks again for all of your help!

Also, would like to know why this initial post here ↑ and this one ↓ from another thread look so similar:

Thanks in advance for any potential help! 1st post :)

I washed out of UPT training last year, after the Instrument phase of T-6 training.
I had 90 military hours and approx. 25 pervious civilian hours.
I've also had 50 simulator hours, but not sure if/how those count.

I Obtained My PPL “Post UPT”
I only had to fly like 10 hrs to get whatever reqs. I didn’t already have.
Right Now I’m interested in civilian career, and I’m trying to get my instrument rating, (Passed the IFR written exam already)


I'm in a sort of rare position here, does anyone have any ideas? What should :confused: I do Who would I reach out to?

*I know that students who complete UPT (roughly 230 hours) get a PPL, instrument rating, and a commercial license.



Thanks again for all of your help!

Ditka
11-10-2015, 05:37 PM
Does the single engine T-6 time somehow qualify graduates for a PPL now? Do the T-1 track pilots get a ME commercial without the centerline thrust restriction?


Part 1-yes-sort of.
Part 2-T-1 is not centerline thrust.
Upon completion of T-1 training (winging). You have requisites to get a BE400 type, Instrument, Commercial, ME via a competency exam. I'd have to look at my license, but I think you also get a SE commercial. Don't remember.

zondaracer
11-12-2015, 04:47 AM
Part 1-yes-sort of.
Part 2-T-1 is not centerline thrust.
Upon completion of T-1 training (winging). You have requisites to get a BE400 type, Instrument, Commercial, ME via a competency exam. I'd have to look at my license, but I think you also get a SE commercial. Don't remember.

You get the SE commercial if you flew the T-6. If you flew the T-37, no single engine commercial. Back in the day, the F-16 guys who tracked T-37/T-38/F-16 got single engine, Multiengine with centerline thrust, and instrument rating.

JohnBurke
11-13-2015, 04:53 AM
There was no "instrument rating" since that is already part of the commercial license.

The instrument rating is not part of a commercial license. It can be obtained enroute to the commercial, but need not be.

I flew the first five years of my commercial career without an instrument rating.

kingsnake2
11-13-2015, 05:14 AM
The instrument rating is not part of a commercial license. It can be obtained enroute to the commercial, but need not be.

I flew the first five years of my commercial career without an instrument rating.

As he said, instrument is not required to have a commercial. Ag pilots, for example, often have commercial licenses without instrument ratings.

Adlerdriver
11-13-2015, 05:51 AM
The instrument rating is not part of a commercial license. good to know, thanks.