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View Full Version : Building Multi-engine time, Help!


Vito
05-27-2015, 03:40 PM
I just completed my Multi-engine check ride in a Piper Seminole. I have 300 hours TT, Commercial, Instrument,and complex endorsement. My question is, I have the fortunate opportunity to fly a Cessna 310 this summer. The Owner-pilot has offered to let me sit right seat and act as a safety pilot. Can I log this time without a high-performance endorsement? And will this time count towards my total Multi-engine time?..I have never flown a C-310, my only Multi-engine time is approx 16 hours in the Seminole. I'm getting a lot of mixed messages from Instructors and the FAR's are clear as mud on this subject. All help is greatly appreciated!
PS, I'm using my Dad's APC account, I'm Vito's Son in case the Avatar is confusing.
Thanks in advance.


ASaintBernard
05-27-2015, 04:26 PM
Appropriately rated in category and class. Nothing about endorsed. Can't see why an owner would fly all over the place wearing foggles just so you could log the time though !?!?!

Vito
05-27-2015, 04:35 PM
ASaintBernard,
So are you saying that the C-310 is not the same category and class as a Seminole? Hence I'll need the Hi-Perf endorsement to log any time? Ideally, if we flew a 2.0 hr flight I'd like to split the time, or do I need to get checked out in the C-310 to legally do this. I understand about the Foggles, and that is not a possibility.
Thank You


ASaintBernard
05-27-2015, 04:48 PM
Category: Airplane class: ME Land.
Same cat and class bro.

And you said safety pilot not a pilot pilot. You can romp around on the controls all you want. His insurance won't have any of it when you ball it up though.

Edit: why don't you just go spend an hour or 2 at the local fbo in a 182 and get HP endorsement ? I mean, you need it eventually anyway. Unless you plan on flying Seminole forever.

Toonces
05-27-2015, 05:50 PM
Don't you normally get a high performance endorsement with a multi?


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Vito
05-27-2015, 06:26 PM
ASaintBernard,
That was my plan, to get the Hi -Perf in a C182. But today 3 Instructors said I didn't need to get the endorsement to log the time, hence my post.
Toonces,
The Seminole has 2 180 Hp engines, in order to qualify for Hi-Perf the engine has to have more than 200 HP. You can't add them up either! Clear as Mud!

ASaintBernard
05-28-2015, 01:26 AM
ASaintBernard,
That was my plan, to get the Hi -Perf in a C182. But today 3 Instructors said I didn't need to get the endorsement to log the time, hence my post.
Toonces,
The Seminole has 2 180 Hp engines, in order to qualify for Hi-Perf the engine has to have more than 200 HP. You can't add them up either! Clear as Mud!

It's actually really clear. No you don't need the endorsement. Some airplanes require that the PIC occupy the pilot station (left seat). This is so you can reach all the knobs,levers,buttons and switches. Make sure the 310 is not one of these A/C.

You won't technically be the PIC. You will only be able to log PIC as sole manipulator of the flight controls. Companies have started to be very clear about what kind of PIC you are actually logging. Unless you are the final authority of the flight and completely responsible for the operation of said flight, then those companies don't want you to put that in the PIC column.

My advice is to get the endorsement because many people don't think you can log the time without it. You can. Additionally, I would sit in the left seat but the owner will not approve of this so I'm sure it's out of the question.

yeahbutstill
05-28-2015, 03:05 AM
I had a samiliar issue a while back, a buddy of mine had a 182 wich is HP, I decided to get the HP endorsment just to be on the safe side. 1 hour ground and a quick flight with a couple touch and goes and got my endorsement.

I used to look at it that way too, same "cat and class".. But just so I dont have to worry about it. It looks like if you start logging time, it'll prob be on the back of your head without that endorsement..

ASaintBernard
05-28-2015, 03:21 AM
I had a samiliar issue a while back, a buddy of mine had a 182 wich is HP, I decided to get the HP endorsment just to be on the safe side. 1 hour ground and a quick flight with a couple touch and goes and got my endorsement.

I used to look at it that way too, same "cat and class".. But just so I dont have to worry about it. It looks like if you start logging time, it'll prob be on the back of your head without that endorsement..
It's all good to log PIC. However,people know when you fly a 310 without a HP endorsement you aren't the real PIC. There shouldn't be anything on the back of your head. I have never had anyone retroactively check to see if I had a HP endorsement during the period that I was logging HP time anyway.

JohnBurke
05-28-2015, 05:50 AM
I just completed my Multi-engine check ride in a Piper Seminole. I have 300 hours TT, Commercial, Instrument,and complex endorsement. My question is, I have the fortunate opportunity to fly a Cessna 310 this summer. The Owner-pilot has offered to let me sit right seat and act as a safety pilot. Can I log this time without a high-performance endorsement? And will this time count towards my total Multi-engine time?..I have never flown a C-310, my only Multi-engine time is approx 16 hours in the Seminole. I'm getting a lot of mixed messages from Instructors and the FAR's are clear as mud on this subject. All help is greatly appreciated!
PS, I'm using my Dad's APC account, I'm Vito's Son in case the Avatar is confusing.
Thanks in advance.

The regulation is crystal clear on the subject.

Your question regards the logging of multi engine time, and the logging of "time." First, you need to define what time you hope to log. You also need to understand the difference between logging flight time, and acting as pilot in command. Logging pilot in command is not the same as acting as pilot in command. You need the high performance endorsement to act as pilot in command (BE pilot in command). You do NOT need it to log pilot in command.

You indicated that you plan to be safety pilot. If you're safety pilot, you may act as second in command only during simulated instrument flight. This means that if the other pilot isn't wearing his view limiting device, you can't log it, and if he isn't flying, you can't log it. If you intend to be sole manipulator of the controls, you can log it as PIC, but without the endorsement you cannot act as PIC (can't be the actual pilot in command). If you're manipulating the controls, you can't log SIC any more, because it's no longer simulated instrument flight, even if the other pilot is wearing his view limiting device; a SIC is no longer required.

In order to log the time, you do not need an endorsement; you need to be rated in the aircraft (category and class: airplane, multi engine land). You are rated in the aircraft, and can log PIC. You can log PIC, but not act as PIC. You can log and act as SIC.

yeahbutstill
05-28-2015, 07:12 AM
The regulation is crystal clear on the subject.

Your question regards the logging of multi engine time, and the logging of "time." First, you need to define what time you hope to log. You also need to understand the difference between logging flight time, and acting as pilot in command. Logging pilot in command is not the same as acting as pilot in command. You need the high performance endorsement to act as pilot in command (BE pilot in command). You do NOT need it to log pilot in command.

You indicated that you plan to be safety pilot. If you're safety pilot, you may act as second in command only during simulated instrument flight. This means that if the other pilot isn't wearing his view limiting device, you can't log it, and if he isn't flying, you can't log it. If you intend to be sole manipulator of the controls, you can log it as PIC, but without the endorsement you cannot act as PIC (can't be the actual pilot in command). If you're manipulating the controls, you can't log SIC any more, because it's no longer simulated instrument flight, even if the other pilot is wearing his view limiting device; a SIC is no longer required.

In order to log the time, you do not need an endorsement; you need to be rated in the aircraft (category and class: airplane, multi engine land). You are rated in the aircraft, and can log PIC. You can log PIC, but not act as PIC. You can log and act as SIC.
Great explanation. Thanks!

Vito
05-28-2015, 09:43 AM
Thank you all for the advice. After talking with a few more folks, including an FAA rep they all seem to agree that I can log PIC time in the C-310, but can't "act" as the PIC unless I get the High-Perf endorsement. I plan on getting the endorsement tomorrow so there won't be any questions about my C-310 time.
Again, Thank you!

yeahbutstill
05-28-2015, 10:35 AM
I plan on getting the endorsement tomorrow so there won't be any questions about my C-310 time.
Again, Thank you!

That's what I did just to avoid any gray areas or confusion... plus it doesn't hurt to have that under your belt

JohnBurke
05-28-2015, 01:20 PM
Thank you all for the advice. After talking with a few more folks, including an FAA rep they all seem to agree that I can log PIC time in the C-310, but can't "act" as the PIC unless I get the High-Perf endorsement. I plan on getting the endorsement tomorrow so there won't be any questions about my C-310 time.
Again, Thank you!

Use caution seeking answers from an "FAA rep," at the FSDO level. The opinion you get is not defensible, and you'll never be able to say that you were told this or that by an inspector, and stand on that...even if it's in writing. The inspector can initiate enforcement action, but it not entitled to interpret regulation. You may gain clarification on the regulation from three sources; the regulation itself, Federal Register preambles (from the time the regulation was made public when new), and FAA Chief and Regional Legal Counsel opinions or interpretations.

There is no gray area here.

wizepilot
05-28-2015, 05:44 PM
Plus, a C-310 ain't no Seminole!:p

JohnBurke
05-28-2015, 08:12 PM
Just another light twin.

Vito
05-30-2015, 02:40 AM
Update,
I received my HI-Perf endorsement yesterday. It was painless and now nobody can question the time I Log in the C-310. But as others here have said, you don't need the Hi-Perf endorsement to LOG multi time only to ACT as PIC in the 310. There are a few FAA Letters of Interpretation that address this exact situation and are quite clear on the matter. John Burke's post explained it best.
FYI, the Letters of Interpretation can be found under the questions submitted by. John Speranza and Jason E Herman

ASaintBernard
05-30-2015, 05:01 AM
Now just make sure you clear it up with the insurance company. After all that's all that really matters. Nobody is ever going to look at your logbook until the insurance company needs to pay on a claim.