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PearlPilot
01-21-2007, 05:40 PM
I am a junior at college and I am majoring at humanities. I plan to start my flight training in May. When people ask me what is my major I say humanities. They ask what is that? I say well it is a really broad area of study, but I just want the degree so that I can become an airline pilot. This is exactly what happened to me. By doing research on the internet I found out that it does not matter what bachelor's degree you get, but just so that you have one airlines don't care. So I scrolled down the list of majors and chose humanities, the easiest major. Now I regret my decision terribly. I understand that it won't matter, but bad things do happen. What if I get furloughed or lose my medical? What kind of a job would I go back to? Surely, humanities has nothing to do with my interest. I have been and I am passionate about aviation, and I cannot imagine being in a career other than aviation. It was very hard for me to accept this situation because I can graduate by next year. But I think it is now time for me to make a serious decision. I already e-mailed a couple of schools that offers both flight training and an aviation degree. No I am not talking about Riddle or Webster. These schools has an average tuition fee of around 13-17K per year excluding flight costs. I think I am pretty firm on my decision to do this. I want to have a good college experience and get out and say that it was worth it. If something bad happens for my flying carfeer I want to be able to make a career out of the aviation field. I would certainly appriciate any opinions regarding this issue.


Uncle Bose
01-21-2007, 05:56 PM
A lot of degrees have the word "aviation" in them. If you must get one of them, have it be business-oriented. DO NOT get a degree in flying airplanes. ERAU calls that one aeronautical science. I think UND's is called "commercial aviation."

PearlPilot
01-21-2007, 06:01 PM
This is what's going to happen if I continued with the humanities major. Say I return back to college with my PPL. With a heavy courseload I won't be able to fly for more than once a week. By the time I graduate college with a B.S. I will have a PPL rating and a good loan to pay off. Then I won't be able to continue to fly. Rather I will probably be employed and use that money to pay off my student loans. That might take years! and by the time I get back to flying and get done with my rating it might take years and years. One of the main reasons I decided on this is because, while I work on my degree I will be "forced" to fly at least 3-4 times while doing something that I really enjoy. I might even get out with a CFI rating by the time I graduate. It sounds much better to me than my original plan.


Uncle Bose
01-21-2007, 06:29 PM
A humanities degree may be a mistake, but another one would be paying nonresident tuition. Life will be much easier, and much more enjoyable, if you do whatever is necessary to exit college with as little debt as possible.
You don't have to have an aviation degree to work in the aviation field; the universal applicability of business and engineering degrees would give you a solid chance of working in the industry in some capacity.
I don't think switching majors should be a huge deal for a junior. You've already got general ed out of the way I'm assuming, and you haven't gotten too far into your major. After graduating, you should have a six month period before loan repayment starts. During this time you can attend All ATPs to complete all your ratings through the CFI level and become employed.

LAfrequentflyer
01-22-2007, 03:47 AM
Look into AF ROTC - you don't have to fly , they'll pay for your school and you give them 4 years as a support officer. You'll leave the military with no debt, the military square checked, and maybe even put some money aside to pay for your training at www.allatps.com

Employers like to see military experience (officer or enlisted) - it shows them you can get along with different people and can work as a professional.

Who knows - you may like the military and decide to make it a career.

-LAFF

NE_Pilot
01-22-2007, 04:04 AM
Now I regret my decision terribly. I understand that it won't matter, but bad things do happen. What if I get furloughed or lose my medical? What kind of a job would I go back to? Surely, humanities has nothing to do with my interest. I have been and I am passionate about aviation, and I cannot imagine being in a career other than aviation. It was very hard for me to accept this situation because I can graduate by next year..

You might aswell just finish up and graduate with the degree. The only real mistake you made was to not major in something you enjoyed. As stated by myself and others, if you cannot fly for some reason, it really doesn't matter what degree you have, especially a couple years down the road. I know Sports Fitness Majors who have jobs working in management for large corporations, which they had no connections to. For a larger majority of jobs out there, all they want to see is work expeirence and that you have a 4 year degree. They will train you in whatever job they are hiring you for.

So, I think, you are better off just finishing up the degree and building your time. You are only costing yourself more money by switching now. Like I said, most employers in and outside of aviation just want to see a 4-year degree, and work expeirence (preferrably in the field).

Airborne
01-22-2007, 07:49 AM
You might aswell just finish up and graduate with the degree. The only real mistake you made was to not major in something you enjoyed.

NE PILOT is correct.
It is very rare that I speak to someone that works in the same field as what they earned their degree in. Even outside of aviation there are many jobs great jobs out there that simply only require a 4 year degree. You can get a degree in Under Water Basket Weaving and it might be enough to get an interview. Many HR departments simply look at a degree as a way to weed out mass applicants. I always tell a person to get a degree that you will enjoy and one that is flexible for all job markets. Like business management. I donít think a degree will always make an applicant smarter but it simply looks good on a resume. I know a Gal whom got a degree in fashion, at the time I thought that wasn't very smart but now she makes stupid money working for Banana Republic. She makes more manoy than most Regional CPT's:eek: - she love her job.
By the way ERAU online has the cheapest cost per credit hour for online classes than any else out there that offer a complete degree online. Working Full time and being a having a family; online classes were the way to go and ERAU was the most bang for the buck.

rickair7777
01-22-2007, 09:03 AM
My suggestion would be to give it some thought, and then pick up a master's in something you interested in.

You may have to take a few pre-reqs depending on the major, but this would be more marketable then a second BS/BA, and probably require less coursework.

PearlPilot
01-22-2007, 06:20 PM
Thank you all for the replies. I guess I rushed into my decision. Well I think I am going to go ahead and get my 4 year degree finished up. I have found that it will cost a lot more if I changed my major now and move to another state.

LAfrequentflyer
01-23-2007, 06:47 AM
A lot of degrees have the word "aviation" in them. If you must get one of them, have it be business-oriented. DO NOT get a degree in flying airplanes. ERAU calls that one aeronautical science. I think UND's is called "commercial aviation."

http://www.avionnewspaper.com/home/index.cfm?event=displayArticle&ustory_id=99df24db-bd46-4a61-800e-9d7d830074e3


From 2005 - wonder how much things have changed...

-LAFF

Uncle Bose
01-23-2007, 07:13 AM
Two things about that article surprise me:

1. That it was printed.
2. That some nonsensical justification for attending ERAU in spite of the debt loan wasn't thrown in.

LAfrequentflyer
01-23-2007, 07:21 AM
Two things about that article surprise me:

1. That it was printed.
2. That some nonsensical justification for attending ERAU in spite of the debt loan wasn't thrown in.


1. Hubris on the part of ERAU leadership.

2. What's the famous quote by Joseph Goebbels? 'The bigger the lie the more people will believe it.' Harvard of the Skies - kids can say that to sell their parents on going to ERAU. Parents can tell other parents at the 'club' their Johnny goes to the Harvard of the Skies and will be flying a jet in a few years. BTW - Johnny's teacher for 'Using a Plotter 200' is a 75 year old F-86 pilot.

-LAFF

NE_Pilot
01-23-2007, 04:41 PM
1. Hubris on the part of ERAU leadership.

2. What's the famous quote by Joseph Goebbels? 'The bigger the lie the more people will believe it.' Harvard of the Skies - kids can say that to sell their parents on going to ERAU. Parents can tell other parents at the 'club' their Johnny goes to the Harvard of the Skies and will be flying a jet in a few years. BTW - Johnny's teacher for 'Using a Plotter 200' is a 75 year old F-86 pilot.

-LAFF

I have noticied that you seem to "know" a whole lot about places that you have never been to or expeirenced. If I did not know better, I would have thought you went to ERAU and ATP by the way you are talking about them.

You have a lot of resentment for ERAU, yet it never did any wrong to you. In all honesty ERAU is just like ATP, except with ERAU you get a degree (which is worth the same as any other degree btw). The costs of actual flight time is very similair, with just about equal equipment. By the way, I found something very interesting, in the Regional Forum there is a thread about how an Internship is a real good thing to get, and interesting note is that most internships requires that you are enrolled in an Aviation Major. So you have to get a "worthless" aviation degree, in order to get that all important networking tool, the internship at a Major/Legacy Airline.

I can understand people who went to ERAU being bitter about it, but I cannot understand people who never stepped foot on their campus being bitter about it, let alone actually attended.

LAfrequentflyer
01-23-2007, 04:46 PM
I have noticied that you seem to "know" a whole lot about places that you have never been to or expeirenced. If I did not know better, I would have thought you went to ERAU and ATP by the way you are talking about them.

You have a lot of resentment for ERAU, yet it never did any wrong to you. In all honesty ERAU is just like ATP, except with ERAU you get a degree (which is worth the same as any other degree btw). The costs of actual flight time is very similair, with just about equal equipment. By the way, I found something very interesting, in the Regional Forum there is a thread about how an Internship is a real good thing to get, and interesting note is that most internships requires that you are enrolled in an Aviation Major. So you have to get a "worthless" aviation degree, in order to get that all important networking tool, the internship at a Major/Legacy Airline.

I can understand people who went to ERAU being bitter about it, but I cannot understand people who never stepped foot on their campus being bitter about it, let alone actually attended.


I'm bitter because I couldn't afford to attend the Harvard of the Skies...

Aviation is still a useless degree.

ATP grads don't post on this forum under 'Key Loans.'

-LAFF

Uncle Bose
01-23-2007, 05:13 PM
"(which is worth the same as any other degree btw)"

Liberal arts degrees, maybe. Engineering and business.....no.

Despite ERAU's propaganda 180 degrees to the contrary, there is no justification for a useless degree in flying airplanes, especially one that costs $100K (tuition only). Internships, reduced minimums, nothing. I don't care HOW many stories about MiG Alley you get to hear from your E6B instructor.

NE_Pilot
01-23-2007, 05:48 PM
"(which is worth the same as any other degree btw)"

Liberal arts degrees, maybe. Engineering and business.....no.

Despite ERAU's propaganda 180 degrees to the contrary, there is no justification for a useless degree in flying airplanes, especially one that costs $100K (tuition only). Internships, reduced minimums, nothing. I don't care HOW many stories about MiG Alley you get to hear from your E6B instructor.

It is worth the same as any other degree. If you get an Engineering degree, fly as a career, and 5 years down the line you lose your medical or can't fly for whatever reason, and decide to start a new career, that degree in Engineering means the exact samething as a degree in Aviation. You can check off that box that says 4 year degree.

You are too far out of college to use it. People you will be competing with either have 5 years working the field or a brand new degree (more than likely with an internship). You are not competive in that field, and to think that is a viable backup, is setting yourself up for a big disappointment. You are too far behind the industry. Airlines don't hire people who haven't flown in the past 5 years, and companies (which require a specific degree) won't hire someone with a 5 year old degree that was never used. You will forget what you learned, and companies know that.

It may help a year or two out, but after that, its nothing but a 4-year degree. Further in an other post I did a cost comparison, of going to a traditional 4-year college + ATP, and going to ERAU (mainly because it is the one school that is referenced so often). I was curious if it really did cost that much more. Well I found that the only cheaper way was a state school (resident of that state, living on campus though because people in the thread were talking about the "college expeirence" which you miss out on if you commute) and ATP, and that was $7,000 cheaper (this excludes financial aid and scholarships ofcourse). In the grand scheme of things, that is not a huge difference, atleast not as big as some on here would make it out to be. The debt will be similair. So what I concluded, was that you might as well do what you enjoy, and major in whatever you think would interest you. To major in something believing it will be a backup is a faltely line of thought, especially the further out of college you get. The degree is like a car, it starts losing value as soon as you take it off campus.

I also have to wonder, did you go to ERAU?? I don't (and haven't), so I do not know what their classes are like or what they teach, but if you didn't either then I would have to say you are in the same boat.

NE_Pilot
01-23-2007, 05:51 PM
I'm bitter because I couldn't afford to attend the Harvard of the Skies...

Aviation is still a useless degree.

ATP grads don't post on this forum under 'Key Loans.'

-LAFF

A useless degree is a degree you did not enjoy studying.

ATP Grads who attended out-of-state colleges might. The real question you have to ask yourself is, how many ATP Grads have a 4-year college degree??

Study what interests you, and what you think you will enjoy learning. It will make your college years all that more enjoyable. Studying in something because it will be a "backup" for a new career if your first fails is a faulty line of thinking.

Airborne
01-23-2007, 07:30 PM
http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/Careers/11/03/cb.nodegree/index.html

Wasn't Bill Gates a college drop out?

Lots of successful businessmen out there without degrees, there are also lot of highly educated idiots out there living in the poor house.

Yes there better degrees out there than Aviation Degrees but Aviation
Degrees are not worthless.

Uncle Bose
01-23-2007, 07:40 PM
I agree that the whole "do it as a backup" suggestion is nonsense. After a number of years, any degree loses the marketability it had at conferment. Also, you are correct that in the context of being a pilot, all degrees are pretty much equal.

Why then, buy the most expensive one available? "Doing what you love" isn't a blank check for tossing common sense and self-preservation to the wind.

Your calculations are inaccurate. That should be intuitively obvious given ERAU's tuition figure alone. These figures are resident tuition and fees only.

PSU $13796 x 4 = $55184 (+ $54000 ATP's PPL and Airline Fast Track = $109184)

UCLA $7143 x 4 = $28574 (+ $54000 = $82574)

UF $3330 x 4 = $13320 (+ $54000 = $67320)

ERAU $25490 x 4 = $101960 (+ $40000 flight training, an unrealistically low estimate) = $141960. This doesn't include instructor ratings, as they are not part of the degree program, and DEFINITELY not part of the estimate.

Yes, I went to ERAU for three semesters. Hopefully, it's the worst mistake I'll ever make.

sigep_nm
01-23-2007, 08:31 PM
Okay so I finally went through all the paper work and such and came up with some figures as to what it cost me to go to the "real" Havard of the sky.
4 years tuition = 16000
Flight Training = 32000
Total = 48000
Outcome = 4 year college degree (yes in aviaiton, i'll explain later) Commercial multi, single, instrument, CFI, CFII, MEI
UND

So why does it benefit getting a college degree in aviation? You want to be a pilot right? Being a pilot is a matter of lifestyle, and experience. I can guarantee that my experience level is vastly higher than most if not all ATP grads. Why? Because I was emersed in it for four years, and you cant take that away nor replace it. In my four years at school I took two classes based solely on regional aircraft. The class was based off the same curriculumn that Horizon uses for the dash 8, and flight safety uses for the CRJ. I also have a strong background in gas turbine engines and advanced aerodynamics. That is just to name a few. I will be the first to admit that I dont know a whole lot about ATP's course work, but i think i can safely assume that there is a huge discrepency between the two. A college degree is not for everyone but it is an integral part of being a professional pilot. Some people believe and will say that piloting is a trade, but being a PROFESSIONAL requires you to emerse yourself in the career and make the effort to utilize all available resources to learn as much as you possibly can. Thats my 2 cents, prove me wrong if you would like, I am always open for INTELIGENT dialogue.

POPA
01-24-2007, 09:16 AM
The discussion in this thread has meandered away from the most important topic presented: what the heck is a "humanities" degree?!

rickair7777
01-24-2007, 10:55 AM
Okay so I finally went through all the paper work and such and came up with some figures as to what it cost me to go to the "real" Havard of the sky.
4 years tuition = 16000
Flight Training = 32000
Total = 48000
Outcome = 4 year college degree (yes in aviaiton, i'll explain later) Commercial multi, single, instrument, CFI, CFII, MEI
UND

So why does it benefit getting a college degree in aviation? You want to be a pilot right? Being a pilot is a matter of lifestyle, and experience. I can guarantee that my experience level is vastly higher than most if not all ATP grads. Why? Because I was emersed in it for four years, and you cant take that away nor replace it. In my four years at school I took two classes based solely on regional aircraft. The class was based off the same curriculumn that Horizon uses for the dash 8, and flight safety uses for the CRJ. I also have a strong background in gas turbine engines and advanced aerodynamics. That is just to name a few. I will be the first to admit that I dont know a whole lot about ATP's course work, but i think i can safely assume that there is a huge discrepency between the two. A college degree is not for everyone but it is an integral part of being a professional pilot. Some people believe and will say that piloting is a trade, but being a PROFESSIONAL requires you to emerse yourself in the career and make the effort to utilize all available resources to learn as much as you possibly can. Thats my 2 cents, prove me wrong if you would like, I am always open for INTELIGENT dialogue.


That is a reasonable price for all those ratings AND a 4 year degree.

But don't kid yourself, all that aviation emersion doesn't really matter when you get to the airlines. It is only available because it is interesting and fun, so schools can get students to pay for it. It is NOT driven by industry demand...airlines care about your flight experience, not where you went to school (unless it was ivy league or US service academy...you get a few points for that). Engineering programs, for example, are driven by industry demand...there are high-paying jobs available, but you have to graduate from an accredited program to get one.

I would still recommend a non-aviation degree as a fallback position (or areo engineering).

Uncle Bose
01-24-2007, 11:39 AM
Okay so I finally went through all the paper work and such and came up with some figures as to what it cost me to go to the "real" Havard of the sky.
4 years tuition = 16000
Flight Training = 32000
Total = 48000
Outcome = 4 year college degree (yes in aviaiton, i'll explain later) Commercial multi, single, instrument, CFI, CFII, MEI
UND

If your degree is recent, then I doubt that figure. It's low even for ND residents at UND. You have to include the full cost of the degree, even if you were spared the full cost due to scholarships and grants.
At any rate, that is a very reasonable price, but the debate centers around paying nonresident or private school tuition for an ultimately pointless degree.

LAfrequentflyer
01-24-2007, 12:32 PM
Get a 4 year degree in anything that interests you. Get it as cheaply as possible - mine was free thanks to the USAF in IT management. Back it up with industry certifications (CCNA / CCNP for IT, CFP for finance). Put your money into flight training at ATP and you'll be just fine for the airline industry.


-LAFF

NE_Pilot
01-24-2007, 12:35 PM
If your degree is recent, then I doubt that figure. It's low even for ND residents at UND. You have to include the full cost of the degree, even if you were spared the full cost due to scholarships and grants.
At any rate, that is a very reasonable price, but the debate centers around paying nonresident or private school tuition for an ultimately pointless degree.


The real thing everyone has to do, is look how much it will cost them, how much their state schools will cost them, and then decide. It will also depend on how much each school offers you personally, if a state school were to offer you $10,000 a year in scholarships, and Riddle gave you a full ride (don't think it woul happen, but it could) then your probably better off with the full ride.

My only real advice on choosing a school/major is simple, do something you will enjoy and be interested in. If you don't do that, then there is no point in going to college.

PearlPilot
01-26-2007, 09:51 AM
The discussion in this thread has meandered away from the most important topic presented: what the heck is a "humanities" degree?!

This is what I am doing right now.
http://php.scripts.psu.edu/dept/iit/hbg/Programs/Undergraduate/InterdHuman.php

The reason I went a little crazy the last couple of weeks was because I thought I was wasting my time and money by doing a humanities degree. Also I as much as I love aviation I thought that I would thoroughly enjoy majoring in something related to aviation. The initial reason for my chosing the humanities degree is that I would not have to worry about a huge amount of a courseload as well as spending hours and hours studying and drowning into my studies. Although the humanities major has been kept me busy enough so far, I still manage to work full-time (which I have to in order to collect $ for my PPL). Now if I did something like engineering, I would have to put away getting my licenses until I graduate. Another reason is because, if I continued with this degree I can graduate by the summer of 08. Done deal. I am sticking to it. I want to get my PPL this summer, and it is very important that I do, and soon after I graduate I want to get a job and work on the rest of my ratings. I want to get a CFI job in about a year after graduating. I hope things will work out. And thanks for the kind comments.

SkyHigh
01-27-2007, 12:57 PM
Okay so I finally went through all the paper work and such and came up with some figures as to what it cost me to go to the "real" Havard of the sky.
4 years tuition = 16000
Flight Training = 32000
Total = 48000
Outcome = 4 year college degree (yes in aviaiton, i'll explain later) Commercial multi, single, instrument, CFI, CFII, MEI
UND

So why does it benefit getting a college degree in aviation? You want to be a pilot right? Being a pilot is a matter of lifestyle, and experience. I can guarantee that my experience level is vastly higher than most if not all ATP grads. Why? Because I was emersed in it for four years, and you cant take that away nor replace it. In my four years at school I took two classes based solely on regional aircraft. The class was based off the same curriculumn that Horizon uses for the dash 8, and flight safety uses for the CRJ. I also have a strong background in gas turbine engines and advanced aerodynamics. That is just to name a few. I will be the first to admit that I dont know a whole lot about ATP's course work, but i think i can safely assume that there is a huge discrepency between the two. A college degree is not for everyone but it is an integral part of being a professional pilot. Some people believe and will say that piloting is a trade, but being a PROFESSIONAL requires you to emerse yourself in the career and make the effort to utilize all available resources to learn as much as you possibly can. Thats my 2 cents, prove me wrong if you would like, I am always open for INTELIGENT dialogue.

You can self promote if you like however the truth is that flying is a trade similar to being a crane operator. (The difference is that a crane operator is rewarded for having real skill and system knowledge and is paid a good wage.) All you have to do it to follow the instructions and never think for yourself and you will be fine. If one wishes to be a trail blazing aeronautical intellectual then the place for that is in the wind tunnel at Boeing.

Pilots like to think of themselves as though their efforts carry more value than they actually do. Everyday pilots go to work with little or no formal education in aviation at all and do just fine. Some of the most successful pilots I have ever known make an effort to learn as little as possible and still get by without question. I was told by an instructor at the simulator that pilots at UAL refused to study for simulator training since they were not given any pay compensation for it.

In fact over training and education does no good at all. Horizon Air will teach new hires everything they need to know and anything else just muddies up the mental waters and makes it more difficult for the student. Education and experience in a significant field out side of aviation broadens an applicants personality, ability and skill base.

Lastly as we all know aviation is a difficult field. It is hugely beneficial to develop an outside interest since at some point you will find yourself out of a job and will need to seek a real income. An aviation degree is nothing more than four years of play masquerading as school work. It has little value to the airlines and none in the outside world. You might as well take up a PE or leisure services degree.

SkyHigh

juxtapilot
01-27-2007, 10:54 PM
A lot of degrees have the word "aviation" in them. If you must get one of them, have it be business-oriented. DO NOT get a degree in flying airplanes. ERAU calls that one aeronautical science. I think UND's is called "commercial aviation."

First of all, I am a senior in high school, and I am planning on going to UND starting in the fall of 2007. I plan on majoring in "Commercial Aviation." The reason I want to do this is because I love nearly all aspects of aviation, and I want to focus on it throughout college. I chose UND because there are lots of students there who aren't in any aviation program, so I wouldn't always be around aviation "geeks," like myself... That could be really lame.

I just have a few concerns about majoring in Commercial Aviation. 1) Would this major have any negative effects on finding a good airline job in the future? 2) If you are a UND grad, is the program worth the money? And is it fun?

Thanks for any input you might have on this! I appreciate it so much!

-Jake

de727ups
01-28-2007, 07:57 AM
Jake, there is a pretty active and honest UND forum at Jetcareers. You should check it out.

sigep_nm
01-28-2007, 08:26 AM
Jake,
If you are entirely interested in flying then yes that degree is for you. Yes it was a very fun program with some great people doing the teaching there. As far as being around the geeks, very few if any of my friends have anything to do with aviation. There are definetly the propheads walking around here, but they share little interest in anything that most people like to do. Another selling point is our safety record. No fatalities in many years (I think the last one was back in the 80's) and when incidents do occur, the program is top notch in identifying the factors involved, and instituting immediate changes to our operating procedures,
hope this helps.

LAfrequentflyer
01-28-2007, 08:30 AM
First of all, I am a senior in high school, and I am planning on going to UND starting in the fall of 2007. I plan on majoring in "Commercial Aviation." The reason I want to do this is because I love nearly all aspects of aviation, and I want to focus on it throughout college. I chose UND because there are lots of students there who aren't in any aviation program, so I wouldn't always be around aviation "geeks," like myself... That could be really lame.

I just have a few concerns about majoring in Commercial Aviation. 1) Would this major have any negative effects on finding a good airline job in the future? 2) If you are a UND grad, is the program worth the money? And is it fun?

Thanks for any input you might have on this! I appreciate it so much!

-Jake

Jake. Don't waste your money on a commercial aviation degree. UND has a lot of good programs - find another program. Business or Finance / IT.

Look into AFROTC as well...

-LAFF

PearlPilot
01-28-2007, 09:10 AM
I am glad the importance of a non-aviation degree is being presented here by the participation of a wide variety of personalities. Last summer I met a senior in high school and his dad and had lunch with them. He was already working on his PPL (flying since he was 14) and he seemed to know a lot about aviation (aircraft, and the whole nine yards). He certainly impressed me. Now it was not a surprise to find out that he desperately wanted to attend ERAU. He told me how he visited and was extremely imressed with them. The father seemed to be a little concerned about the "price" but of course, it did not seem to be an obstacle. I know a buddy of mine from high school who is currently attending ERAU, but he's pretty loaded. What I am trying to say this this: When I was in high school, I wanted to go to a place like ERAU as well. But I think it is simply a fantasy world that you are dreaming of. It may be "state of the art" but trust me a good old degree should just do it. After all I really doubt that airlines care what degree you have, as long as its a bachelor's degree. I am going for it!

rickair7777
01-28-2007, 09:18 AM
I just have a few concerns about majoring in Commercial Aviation. 1) Would this major have any negative effects on finding a good airline job in the future? 2) If you are a UND grad, is the program worth the money? And is it fun?

Thanks for any input you might have on this! I appreciate it so much!

-Jake


1) An aviation degree would not harm your chances of getting a major job. However, I would recomend a non-aviation degree (or aero-engineering) if the cost is the same...

-The aviation degrees are known in the industry as being nothing special, and graduates are a dime-a-dozen. A more interesting or challenging degree would make you more intriguing to an airline interviewer (remember, he's trying to decide if he could stand to fly with you for a month, and he probably wants to talk about something other than airplanes).

- If you ever need to fall back on it, a real degree can come in handy. It is safe to say that you will get furloughed/unemployed at some point in your pilot career, and you can also expect to spend anywhere to from 6 months to forever grounded for medical reasons.

NE_Pilot
01-28-2007, 09:53 AM
If you ever need to fall back on it, a real degree can come in handy. It is safe to say that you will get furloughed/unemployed at some point in your pilot career, and you can also expect to spend anywhere to from 6 months to forever grounded for medical reasons.

I am going to disagree here. Major in something YOU like. If you believe that your degree will be a good fall back, the truth is it won't. You will be out of the loop in that industry, and competing for jobs against people with the same time out of college, but with that many years working in the field. You would not even be competive against those just out of college, because they are atleast update with the technology and industry. You would be out of practice.

So major in anything, anything at all, as long as it is something you will enjoy. No point in not enjoying college, and no point in majoring in something only because you think it will be a back up when it won't be.

rickair7777
01-28-2007, 10:27 AM
So major in anything, anything at all, as long as it is something you will enjoy. No point in not enjoying college, and no point in majoring in something only because you think it will be a back up when it won't be.

Wrong on this...even though I didn't plan it that way, I have made more money with my "fall-back" degree than flying airplanes. Opportunities are endless, and real flying experience can help land a non-flying job in any aviation-related industry.

Absolutely you should enjoy college... drink, chase boys/girls, etc. But when talking majors, "enjoyable" usually translates to "easy"...well there's a whole bunch of OTHER people who took the easy route, but a more challenging, practical degree CAN be utilized later and it says something about you as well.

OK, I'll ask the brutal question...if you want to get an aviation degree because you really like airplanes and want to study them, why not do some sort of aero-engineering? It will look a LOT better on your resume. Because it's too hard? Is that what you want your resume to say "I took the easy road"?

Uncle Bose
01-28-2007, 10:35 AM
OK, I'll ask the brutal question...if you want to get an aviation degree because you really like airplanes and want to study them, why not do some sort of aero-engineering? It will look a LOT better on your resume. Because it's too hard? Is that what you want your resume to say "I took the easy road"?

:::applause!:::

PearlPilot
01-28-2007, 11:21 AM
I found a way. Since I really like airplanes and will not be pursuing an aviation related degree, I can fill that gap by reading books like Rod Machado's PPL handbook, Stick and Rudder and plenty of goodies like how a gas turbine engine works at howstuffworks.com. I am dead serious, I just learned that a couple of days ago.

LAfrequentflyer
01-28-2007, 11:30 AM
I found a way. Since I really like airplanes and will not be pursuing an aviation related degree, I can fill that gap by reading books like Rod Machado's PPL handbook, Stick and Rudder and plenty of goodies like how a gas turbine engine works at howstuffworks.com. I am dead serious, I just learned that a couple of days ago.

Just read the books you need to for your rating and for FAA written tests. The rest of the stuf is like paying a CFI hard earned $$$ to hear about their days over Mig Alley in a F-86 - it does you no good and the old guy feels young on your dime.

Rod's book is outstanding. It explains things well but wordy...I would sell my copy but I like reading it by the pool in the summer.

-LAFF

de727ups
01-28-2007, 12:27 PM
"When I was in high school, I wanted to go to a place like ERAU as well"

So did I, so I did. That was one of the bigger mistakes I've made in my career. When I was 18, I hadn't yet developed any career interests outside of aviation. I think that's pretty common, but unfortunate.

JMT21
01-28-2007, 12:34 PM
First of all, I am a senior in high school, and I am planning on going to UND starting in the fall of 2007. I plan on majoring in "Commercial Aviation." The reason I want to do this is because I love nearly all aspects of aviation, and I want to focus on it throughout college. I chose UND because there are lots of students there who aren't in any aviation program, so I wouldn't always be around aviation "geeks," like myself... That could be really lame.

I just have a few concerns about majoring in Commercial Aviation. 1) Would this major have any negative effects on finding a good airline job in the future? 2) If you are a UND grad, is the program worth the money? And is it fun?

Thanks for any input you might have on this! I appreciate it so much!

-Jake

Jake-

Let me begin by telling you I'm a senior at UND. 80% of those in the aviation program are hardcore prop heads (geeks). So you will be around these type in all your aviation classes, but as you said the remaining 10,000 on campus aren't in aviation.

Now to answer you questions:

1) All the airlines are looking for is a four year degree. Having an aviation degree will not have a negative effect on finding a good aviation job.

2) This is a bit trickier to answer. It really sucks to have a lot of debt coming out of school only to live near the poverty line as a flight instructor or first officer at a regional. My advice is this - if you are in the financial position where you will be able to make it through the program (figure on at least 40k for flight costs alone) with very little debt (less than 5k), life will be a lot easier. If not you might reconsider your post high school plans.

In all honesty, commercial aviation is a complete bull**** degree. It's not challenging and useless other than for filling a line on an application. You would be doing yourself a real favor getting a non aviation degree. If you are interested in flying get an aerospace engineering degree.

It has been my observation that many right out of high school believe that they must get all their tickets as soon as they can at any cost. If I had to do it all over again I would not go to school with the intention of flying while there. Instead, focus on getting your non aviation degree and paying for the certs and ratings as you can. Even if you don't get a job a regional until you're 30, you can still make captain at a major by 50 (or sooner). PM if you have any questions, and seriously think things over, coming out of school 40k in debt to go to a job paying you 20k if you're lucky is just plain stupid.

juxtapilot
01-29-2007, 01:46 AM
Thanks everyone for your answers. It's nice to hear from people who actually have experience and have already done what I am just starting. I think UND will give me a couple of years to play around with some non-aviation classes. I'm not really in that big of a hurry to get into airlines so I might as well have fun in college taking classes that I want to take. I know that eventually I will end up at a regional making crappy pay so it doesn't really matter when I start that phase... Eventually I will, hopefully, achieve my dream, but it's going to take quite a few years, a lot of money, and a ton of patience before I get there.

Again, thanks for all of your great advise.

-Jake

JMT21, I have a few UND specific questions that I was hoping you might be able to shed some light on, but I can't PM yet. Could you send me an email to reach you at? (juxtapilot#hotmail.com) Thanks!

NE_Pilot
01-29-2007, 08:40 AM
Wrong on this...even though I didn't plan it that way, I have made more money with my "fall-back" degree than flying airplanes. Opportunities are endless, and real flying experience can help land a non-flying job in any aviation-related industry.

What was your major?? What is the career you have fallen back on?? Did it specifically state that you needed that degree?? The reason I ask is because I have spoken with a bunch of people who do hiring in all different types of industries, and a fair amount say you just need a 4 year degree. Like I have stated before, I know Sports Fitness Majors who are working for larger corporations in higher paying management jobs. Sports Fitness has nothing to do with Business Management. Finally, how long down the road did you pick up this fall-back career after graduating from college?

It sounds like from what you are saying it was more of your flying experience that helped to land the non-flying job, and not so much the degree.

Absolutely you should enjoy college... drink, chase boys/girls, etc. But when talking majors, "enjoyable" usually translates to "easy"...well there's a whole bunch of OTHER people who took the easy route, but a more challenging, practical degree CAN be utilized later and it says something about you as well.

When talking about the Majors, networking is the probably one of the best tools. A great way to network, you said so yourself in another thread, is by getting an internship with a Major. Most of these internships are only for, or show preference toward, those who are majoring in an Aviation Degree, and those with internships end up getting reduced minimums and put into a different hiring pool.

Now we have a conflict of interest, don't get the Aviation Degree because it is a waste of money, but you should get an internship because it is a great tool. The best way to get the internship is with an Aviation Degree. Personally, I would think that knowing people through the internship is a bit more helpful than having an interesting/challenging degree. I am not saying everyone should major in Aviation, but it is worth a look out, especially with the internship ability. Based on this, I am willing to surmise that the Airlines do not look down upon Pilots with Aviation degrees, if they did they would not make these offers to them, almost exculisvely.

As for the non-aviation degree being utilized down the road. That is a very doubtful prospect, why would a company hire someone with no work in the field and a 5 year+ old degree, when they could hire someone with a fresh degree and internship, or someone with that many years in the field?? The answer is they wouldn't. Just like airlines, most companies want to see currency, if you are not in the field, every year that goes by you become less and less marketable.

OK, I'll ask the brutal question...if you want to get an aviation degree because you really like airplanes and want to study them, why not do some sort of aero-engineering? It will look a LOT better on your resume. Because it's too hard? Is that what you want your resume to say "I took the easy road"?

Aero-Engineering is an Aviation degree, is it not?? I always considered it one. Or the degree says "I took the most practical road, got an internship, and now have built up my network, got preferential hiring, and reduced minimums at a Major Airline."

My point is that you should major in something you enjoy. If your sole reason for majoring in something is because it will be a "good backup", you are making a big mistake. The chances of it actually serving as a backup are slim, and the chances you will enjoy doing it are even less. Major in what interests you, not what you think will serve as a "good backup" 5-10 years down the road

rickair7777
01-29-2007, 10:07 AM
What was your major?? What is the career you have fallen back on?? Did it specifically state that you needed that degree?? The reason I ask is because I have spoken with a bunch of people who do hiring in all different types of industries, and a fair amount say you just need a 4 year degree. Like I have stated before, I know Sports Fitness Majors who are working for larger corporations in higher paying management jobs. Sports Fitness has nothing to do with Business Management. Finally, how long down the road did you pick up this fall-back career after graduating from college?

It sounds like from what you are saying it was more of your flying experience that helped to land the non-flying job, and not so much the degree.



When talking about the Majors, networking is the probably one of the best tools. A great way to network, you said so yourself in another thread, is by getting an internship with a Major. Most of these internships are only for, or show preference toward, those who are majoring in an Aviation Degree, and those with internships end up getting reduced minimums and put into a different hiring pool.

Now we have a conflict of interest, don't get the Aviation Degree because it is a waste of money, but you should get an internship because it is a great tool. The best way to get the internship is with an Aviation Degree. Personally, I would think that knowing people through the internship is a bit more helpful than having an interesting/challenging degree. I am not saying everyone should major in Aviation, but it is worth a look out, especially with the internship ability. Based on this, I am willing to surmise that the Airlines do not look down upon Pilots with Aviation degrees, if they did they would not make these offers to them, almost exculisvely.

As for the non-aviation degree being utilized down the road. That is a very doubtful prospect, why would a company hire someone with no work in the field and a 5 year+ old degree, when they could hire someone with a fresh degree and internship, or someone with that many years in the field?? The answer is they wouldn't. Just like airlines, most companies want to see currency, if you are not in the field, every year that goes by you become less and less marketable.



Aero-Engineering is an Aviation degree, is it not?? I always considered it one. Or the degree says "I took the most practical road, got an internship, and now have built up my network, got preferential hiring, and reduced minimums at a Major Airline."

My point is that you should major in something you enjoy. If your sole reason for majoring in something is because it will be a "good backup", you are making a big mistake. The chances of it actually serving as a backup are slim, and the chances you will enjoy doing it are even less. Major in what interests you, not what you think will serve as a "good backup" 5-10 years down the road

Without disclosing personal info which might identify me to the whole world, my degrees are technical and management related.

I was in the workforce during the big economic downturn of the late 80's/early 90's...I was fortunate, but most of my friends were not. My opinions on this came from seeing ATP's changing engine oil (automotive) and my college GF living at home and working at moto-photo for about 4 years AFTER she graduated.

There are enough majors out there that you should be able to find one that both interests you AND has value in the real world.

Aero-engineering is an engineering major...it qualifies you to do many related engineering tasks in and out of the aviation realm.

My comments on internships were directed at folks who ALREADY had that opportunity and were related to the best use of that opportunity: Use it at a major, don't waste it on a regional. I would never suggest selecting a school or a major (Esp at $100K+ per year) just to get an internship that may or may not pay off. Please don't selectively edit past history and mis-quote me...see, you should have been a journalism major! :D

jackspat2
01-29-2007, 10:16 AM
Aerospace engineering is partly an aviation degree. We deal a lot more in space technology; ie rockets, satellites, that sort of stuff. I'm currently majoring in Aerospace engineering. It was my understanding that an aviation degree is more like aircraft maintenance or some general understanding of how an aircraft works. Aerospace is designing better aircraft and heat seeking missiles. I'm planning on getting my pilot license this year.

Edit: Aerospace engineering is probably 10 times harder than an aviation degree and one of the most challenging engineering degrees out there. Theres a lot of math. I'm taking vector statics right now, then on to vector dynamics. I'm also taking calculus based physics and I have another year of just plain old calculus to go. Not to mention the regular aerospace classes are tough too ie, fluid mechanics. Try figuring out the drag coefficient of a 747 on paper. Aerospace engineering isn't for the weak.

Uncle Bose
01-29-2007, 10:47 AM
Don't sell yourself short. Aero E is closer to 100 times harder than an aviation degree. That's why it's actually worth something.
Let's acknowledge the fact that when most of us say "aviation degree," we mean a degree in flying airplanes, pure and simple, like ERAU's aero sci or UND's commercial aviation. All that entails is expanding the subjects already found in FAA-published/approved flight training manuals into bloated, padded curriculums of fluff in order to meet 120-hour accreditation requirements.

NE_Pilot
01-29-2007, 11:49 AM
Don't sell yourself short. Aero E is closer to 100 times harder than an aviation degree. That's why it's actually worth something.
Let's acknowledge the fact that when most of us say "aviation degree," we mean a degree in flying airplanes, pure and simple, like ERAU's aero sci or UND's commercial aviation. All that entails is expanding the subjects already found in FAA-published/approved flight training manuals into bloated, padded curriculums of fluff in order to meet 120-hour accreditation requirements.


Alright, I was lumping all degrees that had Aviation or Aero into the group Aviation Degree.

NE_Pilot
01-29-2007, 11:53 AM
Without disclosing personal info which might identify me to the whole world, my degrees are technical and management related.

Don't worry about it, more curious more than anything else. I figured I would ask because it was contrary to information I have received from different places.

I was in the workforce during the big economic downturn of the late 80's/early 90's...I was fortunate, but most of my friends were not. My opinions on this came from seeing ATP's changing engine oil (automotive) and my college GF living at home and working at moto-photo for about 4 years AFTER she graduated.

Glad to hear you made it through fairly well.

There are enough majors out there that you should be able to find one that both interests you AND has value in the real world.

That would be ideal!

Aero-engineering is an engineering major...it qualifies you to do many related engineering tasks in and out of the aviation realm.

Alright, I was, obviously, classifing it in the Aviation Degree category.

My comments on internships were directed at folks who ALREADY had that opportunity and were related to the best use of that opportunity: Use it at a major, don't waste it on a regional. I would never suggest selecting a school or a major (Esp at $100K+ per year) just to get an internship that may or may not pay off. Please don't selectively edit past history and mis-quote me...see, you should have been a journalism major! :D

I'll admit I did not read that thread word for word, just the general jist of it, so it is possible I missed some of what you were saying. Yea if I majored in journalism, I could even work for the New York Times!:)

LAfrequentflyer
01-29-2007, 12:30 PM
Don't sell yourself short. Aero E is closer to 100 times harder than an aviation degree. That's why it's actually worth something.
Let's acknowledge the fact that when most of us say "aviation degree," we mean a degree in flying airplanes, pure and simple, like ERAU's aero sci or UND's commercial aviation. All that entails is expanding the subjects already found in FAA-published/approved flight training manuals into bloated, padded curriculums of fluff in order to meet 120-hour accreditation requirements.

Bose.....What about the stories from Mig Alley and flying downtown Hanoi?Surely listening to an old warrior dribble on about 'going downtown' has to be worth 12K per semester?

-LAFF

HoboPilot
01-31-2007, 06:47 AM
I've been checking out the forums here for only short time now and I don't understand why many of this site's members have problems with aerospace school's and aviation related degrees.

For me, attending UND has been one of the greatest choices I've made in my life. I'm having a great time. I joined a fraternity, Sigma Nu, I have lots of friends both in and out of aviation, I'm earning my ratings and certificates, and I'm doing it relatively cheaply. Right now I have the opportunity to not just major in Commercial Aviation, I am also double majoring in Aviation Management, and am also considering a minor in Political Science. I would not attempt having all of this on my plate if I did not feel I could achieve it. While I'm taking aviation classes taught by great professors that will help me become a better pilot, I can also take classes in fields besides aviation taught by professors who are at the forefront of their fields. I took a political science class taught by a professor who routinely travels to Washington DC to speak to Congress on Indian Gaming Policy. I'm fortunate enough to get an aviation degree while also getting the benefits of a non-aviation degree that i would have pursued instead of aviation.

I've seen that a major argument against attending an aviation school is the unreasonably high costs. I'll only speak for UND since that's all I can vouch for. Tuition this year will be $13,000 since I'm from out of state. I'll be a ND resident in the fall. My tuition will fall to $5000 a year. I'm pretty sure I'll spend at least 5 years in college since I've got so much on my plate. Published flying cost for PPL through CFII and CRJ FTD is roughly $53,000 rounding up. Let's make that number a little more realistic and assume that i would cost $60,000.

Tuiton ($13,000 for the first year)+(4x5,000)=$33,000
Room and Board ($5000 for the first year)+(4x$4000 living at my fraternity)=$21,000
Total Non-flying (normal college) costs:$54,000
Initial Total:$114,000
Scholarship:-$10,000
Total:$104,000

That cost doesn't take in to count if you take advantage of summer school’s lower tuition, work hard at your flying to help it move along faster, and scholarships earned along the way.

Majoring in Political Science at a state school in my home state of New York would have these costs:

Tuition +Room and Board 4 yearsx$16,000=$64,000

A Cessna 172SP at the part 141 flight school where I could get my PPL through CFII cost $110 wet, with instruction at $40 per hour. I wouldnt be able to get my Multi engine rating there since they have no multi engine planes. UND Warriors cost $100 per hour wet and instruction is also $40 per hour. Yes, there are flying courses done in higher performance planes than the Warriors, but if you want to you can fly the Warrior for all the courses except for your Commercial and Multi. Most UND students graduate with roughly 250-300 hours total time. let's assume it would take me 250 hours to earn the same certs and ratings minus the multi engine rating if I did it on my own at a flight school while attending college.

Flying Costs:250 hoursx$150= $37,500
Flying Costs($37,500) + SUNY Cortland costs ($64,000)= $101,500 total cost

So for me, going to UND wasn’t that hard of a choice. Sure I moved half way across the country, and I'm up in the middle of nowhere. But I've made great friends from all over the country, I'm loving every moment I have here, I have many, many more resources available to me here than where I was doing my flight training before I came to UND.

If going to an aerospace school works for you and you enjoy it, then by all means go for it. But if getting a non-aviation degree and doing your flying on the side works better for you, then go and do that. College is defined by what you make of it. If you want to get an aviation degree and also become well rounded in other academic areas, you'll make it happen. If you want a non-aviation degree and want to also learn about aviation, you'll make it happen. It doesn’t really matter where you go as long as you're happy and it works for you. Why hate on that?


Erik

Uncle Bose
01-31-2007, 09:30 AM
You're doing better than most. (Soon to be) paying resident tuition, and getting a management degree as well.
A bad idea is paying nonresident, or worse yet, private school tuition for solely an aviation degree, which is quite useless. I'll hate on that until my dying breath, thank you very much.

Engineer Pilot
01-31-2007, 09:45 AM
A year ago I got my 4 yr degree in electrical engineering with a minor in management. No regrets.... however majoring in aerospace engineering (which was actually offered at my school - UC Irvine) probally would suit me better for a pilot career. Yet major in any kind of engineering and it will help you do ANYTHING. It teaches you how to think, and why stuff works the way it does. These skills can be used in any industry and a job will not be hard to find. For me I sleep well at night knowing if becoming an airline pilot doesn't work out then I have a stable second career and skills to fall back on. You carry your education with you for life so take it serious.

Major or minor in something that you can make a living in to support a family. I think of any sort of science/engineering, computer sci., or business (accounting).

Flying is my passion and is #1, Engineering is my realistic back-up and is #2.

jackspat2
01-31-2007, 10:45 PM
A year ago I got my 4 yr degree in electrical engineering with a minor in management. No regrets.... however majoring in aerospace engineering (which was actually offered at my school - UC Irvine) probally would suit me better for a pilot career. Yet major in any kind of engineering and it will help you do ANYTHING. It teaches you how to think, and why stuff works the way it does. These skills can be used in any industry and a job will not be hard to find. For me I sleep well at night knowing if becoming an airline pilot doesn't work out then I have a stable second career and skills to fall back on. You carry your education with you for life so take it serious.

Major or minor in something that you can make a living in to support a family. I think of any sort of science/engineering, computer sci., or business (accounting).

Flying is my passion and is #1, Engineering is my realistic back-up and is #2.

Same with me, but I chose Cal Poly Pomona for my school.

JMT21
02-01-2007, 07:33 PM
Tuiton ($13,000 for the first year)+(4x5,000)=$33,000
Room and Board ($5000 for the first year)+(4x$4000 living at my fraternity)=$21,000
Total Non-flying (normal college) costs:$54,000
Initial Total:$114,000
Scholarship:-$10,000
Total:$104,000


Which leaves you how far in debt? When I was at the same point in school I still thought UND's aviation program was tits as well. Think if you were going after a non aviation degree...only 54k...hell I'll be making that my first year outta school. Just keep an open mind about things, life is way to short not to.

Uncle Bose
02-01-2007, 09:47 PM
In all honesty, commercial aviation is a complete bull**** degree. It's not challenging and useless other than for filling a line on an application.

See? All it takes is a little time in a real program to realize what a joke an aviation degree is.

LAfrequentflyer
02-02-2007, 03:28 AM
See? All it takes is a little time in a real program to realize what a joke an aviation degree is.

Its good for those long nights on patrol with the local PD. Chances are your partner has one too...At least you can talk about how to use the plotter in an F-86 over Mig Alley...

-LAFF

Uncle Bose
02-02-2007, 04:26 AM
Its good for those long nights on patrol with the local PD. Chances are your partner has one too...At least you can talk about how to use the plotter in an F-86 over Mig Alley...

-LAFF

I don't know, man. I'd rather talk about fashion trends in women's footwear. I've had enough pilot dork conversations forced upon me during my time at ERAU, and one more might just make me want to put the shotgun to good use...
I had this neighbor in Daytona...I've mentioned him before...a 32-year-old freshman with Kool Aid dribbling out his ears...we couldn't even be sitting out in front of the apartment drinking beers and shooting the **** without him looking up at a Cessna and pop quizzing us about what its heading was. He also referred to himself as "an aviator."

LAfrequentflyer
02-02-2007, 06:48 AM
I don't know, man. I'd rather talk about fashion trends in women's footwear. I've had enough pilot dork conversations forced upon me during my time at ERAU, and one more might just make me want to put the shotgun to good use...
I had this neighbor in Daytona...I've mentioned him before...a 32-year-old freshman with Kool Aid dribbling out his ears...we couldn't even be sitting out in front of the apartment drinking beers and shooting the **** without him looking up at a Cessna and pop quizzing us about what its heading was. He also referred to himself as "an aviator."

You find those types in every career field...

-LAFF

Uncle Bose
02-02-2007, 06:56 AM
You find those types in every career field...

-LAFF

True.

He was an extreme case, but ERAU, as you'd expect, has quite a number of "those types."

LAfrequentflyer
02-02-2007, 07:16 AM
True.

He was an extreme case, but ERAU, as you'd expect, has quite a number of "those types."

Maybe its their way to rationalize paying so much $$$ for BS...Then again, just saying 'no regrets' works too...

-LAFF

NE_Pilot
02-02-2007, 08:05 AM
Which leaves you how far in debt? When I was at the same point in school I still thought UND's aviation program was tits as well. Think if you were going after a non aviation degree...only 54k...hell I'll be making that my first year outta school. Just keep an open mind about things, life is way to short not to.


You neglected the other part of the post, to go to SUNY and get flight training it would cost him:

Flying Costs:250 hoursx$150= $37,500
Flying Costs($37,500) + SUNY Cortland costs ($64,000)= $101,500 total cost


$101,500 compared to $104,000 is not a real big difference.

NE_Pilot
02-02-2007, 08:07 AM
True.

He was an extreme case, but ERAU, as you'd expect, has quite a number of "those types."

And a major engineering school has the same, and any school who has one big degree program, will attract people who are extremely passionate about their field.

I guess we all should go to Community College to avoid the "nerds".

Uncle Bose
02-02-2007, 08:21 AM
Or just a cool state school. Plenty of those, and they're cheap!

LAfrequentflyer
02-02-2007, 08:22 AM
And a major engineering school has the same, and any school who has one big degree program, will attract people who are extremely passionate about their field.

I guess we all should go to Community College to avoid the "nerds".

You're right...Air Force Academy has Honor Guard dorks...

-LAFF

HoboPilot
02-02-2007, 09:39 PM
Thanks NE_Pilot, the whole point of my argument is that learning to fly is expensive if you do it as a civilian, regardless of where you do it.

JMT21, I realize I will be in quite a bit of debt after school and i also realize I will make less money when I graduate than I would be capable of making if chose a different career path. But that isnt a problem for me. I love flying. I can't see myself doing anything else that would be more enjoyable and fulfilling. I don't know what your career goals are, but if they are dictated by your salary, then I'm very happy that you'll be making more than $54,000 a year. I want to have a job I enjoy, so for the time being, I'm gonna stick with my double major aviation management and commercial aviation.

As for my mind, it's very open. I love college, I love being in a fraternity, and I love my flight training. If I ever don't love it, there's nothing forcing me to keep doing something I don't love. I know life is way too short. My good friend was killed in a plane crash last December. I've almost had a mid-air collision. I've seen how short life can be/could have been, i have evaluated and reevaluated my desire to continue my flight training. I've always come to the conclusion that living life not doing what I truly love isn't worth the decreased risk. Life is just too short, right?

Erik

UND_jesse
02-03-2007, 12:49 PM
Im 18 and taking a year off before i go to university to save money for flight costs. At the beggining of the year i was so set on going to UND, i was willing to sacrifice everything to pay for the tuition (ie) loans. Since im from Canada with dual citizenship, I thought that UND would be the best thing for me to become an pilot. I was so set on UND, i joined here and made my name UND.

Thankfully, reality set in over the winter and i realized how bogus a commercial aviation degree would be. In my town, Kelowna BC, there is a commercial aviation program that allows you to get your ratings at the local FBO, and finish out in a degree in Business at UBCO. After talking with pilots, the bottom line is, the degree does not matter, where you did your training does not matter, as long as you have the ratings and hours to back it up. I think by majoring in something unrelated to aviation will make me a more rounded person than just having a commercial aviation degree. The other plus, is that i will be saving a ton of money! Now if only i can figure out how to change my user name....

Uncle Bose
02-03-2007, 12:53 PM
In the words of the Grail Knight, you have chosen.....wisely. Congrats, and good luck with the future. Although I will say you won't actually NEED as much luck as people graduating with an aviation degree and $100K or more of debt.

LAfrequentflyer
02-03-2007, 12:54 PM
Im 18 and taking a year off before i go to university to save money for flight costs. At the beggining of the year i was so set on going to UND, i was willing to sacrifice everything to pay for the tuition (ie) loans. Since im from Canada with dual citizenship, I thought that UND would be the best thing for me to become an pilot. I was so set on UND, i joined here and made my name UND.

Thankfully, reality set in over the winter and i realized how bogus a commercial aviation degree would be. In my town, Kelowna BC, there is a commercial aviation program that allows you to get your ratings at the local FBO, and finish out in a degree in Business at UBCO. After talking with pilots, the bottom line is, the degree does not matter, where you did your training does not matter, as long as you have the ratings and hours to back it up. I think by majoring in something unrelated to aviation will make me a more rounded person than just having a commercial aviation degree. The other plus, is that i will be saving a ton of money! Now if only i can figure out how to change my user name....


LOL...At least it isn't ERAU_Jesse...Right?

When you're done with school head down to ATP and get your ratings then CFI and work in the states keeping your canadian citizenship and benefits intact. If you can get dual citizenship and enjoy both sides of the border. Something to think about...


-LAFF

LAfrequentflyer
02-03-2007, 12:57 PM
You have chosen....wisely. Congrats, and good luck with the future. Although I will say you won't actually NEED as much luck as people graduating with an aviation degree and $100K or more of debt.

UB...There you go being too kind to future ERAU grads. They'll need more than luck with 100K in debt. BTW - this thread needs a few more 'no regrets' posts about ERAU and aero science degrees.

-LAFF

NE_Pilot
02-03-2007, 02:04 PM
LOL...At least it isn't ERAU_Jesse...Right?

When you're done with school head down to ATP and get your ratings then CFI and work in the states keeping your canadian citizenship and benefits intact. If you can get dual citizenship and enjoy both sides of the border. Something to think about...


-LAFF


Dont bother with ATP, you can get it cheaper with a local FBO. ATP costs the same as the UND and ERAU flight portions. You can do it for cheaper and with a more expeirenced instructor at an FBO.

NE_Pilot
02-03-2007, 02:06 PM
In the words of the Grail Knight, you have chosen.....wisely. Congrats, and good luck with the future. Although I will say you won't actually NEED as much luck as people graduating with an aviation degree and $100K or more of debt.


What you are neglecting is that those colleges cost a little over half of what ERAU or UND cost, but when you add in the actual flight training, they cost just about the same. So the debt will be about equal.

Uncle Bose
02-03-2007, 02:49 PM
What you are neglecting is that those colleges cost a little over half of what ERAU or UND cost, but when you add in the actual flight training, they cost just about the same. So the debt will be about equal.

Even though state tuition is about half ERAU's, flight training will just about make up the difference??? You're basically saying ERAU flight training is tens of thousands of dollars cheaper than alternatives. That's.........interesting. :rolleyes:

Penn State: $13796/yr (one of the more expensive state schools; it actually IS a little over half ERAU's tuition. Even so, adding flight training you're still around $30-40K under.)
UCLA: $7133/yr (A midrange-cost state school. A little over a fourth of ERAU's tuition.)
UF: $3330/yr (Very nice...maybe if you got your PPL in an RJ the ending total would equal ERAU's.)

UND_jesse
02-03-2007, 02:50 PM
LOL...At least it isn't ERAU_Jesse...Right?

When you're done with school head down to ATP and get your ratings then CFI and work in the states keeping your canadian citizenship and benefits intact. If you can get dual citizenship and enjoy both sides of the border. Something to think about...


-LAFF

LAFF, doing the ratings up here in canada at the FBO and university as well. Already have us citizenship. When im done, ill see where to go (ie) regionals in the states, or companies up here in canada

JMT21
02-04-2007, 09:05 AM
You neglected the other part of the post, to go to SUNY and get flight training it would cost him:
$101,500 compared to $104,000 is not a real big difference.

What you are neglecting is that those colleges cost a little over half of what ERAU or UND cost, but when you add in the actual flight training, they cost just about the same. So the debt will be about equal.

I think you are missing my point. I'm saying pay for the ratings when you have the money (ie don't try to fly while going to school, wait until you graduate and are making good money with that non avaition degree).

JMT21, I realize I will be in quite a bit of debt after school and i also realize I will make less money when I graduate than I would be capable of making if chose a different career path. But that isnt a problem for me. I love flying.

I love a lot of things, but love doesn't pay the bills. Good luck, with the gamble you're taking you're gonna need it.

LAFF, doing the ratings up here in canada at the FBO and university as well. Already have us citizenship. When im done, ill see where to go (ie) regionals in the states, or companies up here in canada

You made a wise choice, I'm sure things will work out for you. Keep the shiny side up.

LAfrequentflyer
02-04-2007, 09:08 AM
Dont bother with ATP, you can get it cheaper with a local FBO. ATP costs the same as the UND and ERAU flight portions. You can do it for cheaper and with a more expeirenced instructor at an FBO.

Don't waste your time at an FBO. Serious about flight training head to ATP and get it done and start CFI work to build the hours you'll need to get hired by a regional.

-LAFF

Puppyz
02-04-2007, 10:07 AM
UND jesse ur plan sounds right on. I would love to have been in your position. I have been to Canada and visited flight schools there as well. I wish I could live in Canada. It's easy now to convert Canadian to FAA or FAA to Canadian. Good luck to you.

btw i'm curious as to how you got a dual?? I didn't know they had actual ''dual citizenships''. I thought you had to pick one if you were born outside of Canada.

LAfrequentflyer
02-04-2007, 10:34 AM
UND jesse ur plan sounds right on. I would love to have been in your position. I have been to Canada and visited flight schools there as well. I wish I could live in Canada. It's easy now to convert Canadian to FAA or FAA to Canadian. Good luck to you.

btw i'm curious as to how you got a dual?? I didn't know they had actual ''dual citizenships''. I thought you had to pick one if you were born outside of Canada.

Since February 15, 1977, Canadians have been allowed to take foreign citizenship while keeping their Canadian citizenship.

http://www.cic.gc.ca/ENGLISH/citizen/dual-info.html

-LAFF

Puppyz
02-04-2007, 10:45 AM
yea but there is some stipulation to it if i remember correctly. If you are born in the US and were a US citizen first or not, UND jesse were u born in US or CA?

HoboPilot
02-04-2007, 10:03 PM
JMT21, love may not pay the bills, but when I'm old, looking back on life, I'm not going to be cherishing all the bills I've paid in my life.

Financial stability is important. Even though I may not be making the big bucks, but I'll make ends meet. A lot of people graduate college with debt and work their way out of it.

Thanks for your wishes of good luck. I also extend you the same wishes with your gamble. Life wouldn't be exciting for me if I didn't take the gamble for something I truly want. However, I don't see my education as a gamble, it's a decision that I made after lots of research and thought. I decided I would rather go out and get my certs and ratings while at college than wander around through life, meandering towards the same goal. I'm not going to get stuck working in a cubicle wasting my days away surfing the internet, living out my dreams as a desktop pilot, sitting, waiting, wishing for the job I dream of today.

A wise choice is one that results in the best outcome for that person. Each person is different than the other, different choices work better for different people in the same situations. Assuming that one decision will work better than another in every situation is pretty bold and rather ignorant.

Hey, by the way, what year and major are you here at UND?

Erik

FighterHayabusa
02-05-2007, 12:11 PM
yea but there is some stipulation to it if i remember correctly. If you are born in the US and were a US citizen first or not, UND jesse were u born in US or CA?

In my experience as a US and Canadian citizen, neither country cares about the other, as long as you have the right passport or birth certificate for the one you're living in. The only thing is the inconvenience of ALWAYS having to file a US tax return even if you don't live here :mad:

I think that officially Canada allows 3 and the US 2 (or the other way around) but I can't see how they'd find out or why it would matter if you decided to get a few more!

One thing I was curious about - let's say you work for Kelowna flightcraft in BC, Canada as a US/Canadian citizen and they want you to fly into Havana...

UND_jesse
02-05-2007, 12:18 PM
UND jesse ur plan sounds right on. I would love to have been in your position. I have been to Canada and visited flight schools there as well. I wish I could live in Canada. It's easy now to convert Canadian to FAA or FAA to Canadian. Good luck to you.

btw i'm curious as to how you got a dual?? I didn't know they had actual ''dual citizenships''. I thought you had to pick one if you were born outside of Canada.

My mom is from wichita kansas and my dad is from up here. To get dual now a days you pretty much need a us mom or dad or get sponsored.

In response to flying in canada, I think there is just as much opportunity up here. There are lots of charter opporutnities up north that pay starting FO's just a bit more than Regional FO's. I also think that the university/flight training programs here are great becuase you learn to fly, and earn credits toward a business degree so you have the fall back. The airlines out here are doing very fine even though the governments had to bail out air canada at least 2 times

LAfrequentflyer
02-05-2007, 12:19 PM
In my experience as a US and Canadian citizen, neither country cares about the other, as long as you have the right passport or birth certificate for the one you're living in. The only thing is the inconvenience of ALWAYS having to file a US tax return even if you don't live here :mad:

I think that officially Canada allows 3 and the US 2 (or the other way around) but I can't see how they'd find out or why it would matter if you decided to get a few more!

One thing I was curious about - let's say you work for Kelowna flightcraft in BC, Canada as a US/Canadian citizen and they want you to fly into Havana...

I have US only. If I wanted to I could get Indian citizenship since I was born there. I may do that after I leave the military. I keep reading India has quite the growing aviation industry now. Still have family there. Just don't know if I could stomach that level of poverty for long periods of time.

-LAFF

UND_jesse
02-05-2007, 12:23 PM
One thing I was curious about - let's say you work for Kelowna flightcraft in BC, Canada as a US/Canadian citizen and they want you to fly into Havana...

Don't take your US passport. Use the canadian. Never travel with both. Dual citizenship may become harder up here because one politician has a French passport and Canadian and everyone is up in arms because of the whole Quebec separation debates

Puppyz
02-05-2007, 12:26 PM
ah yea they sell cubans up there lol.

FighterHayabusa
02-05-2007, 12:42 PM
D Never travel with both.

Exactly. Most border guards don't know the rules anyway and will detain you for having 2 passports.

As far as the Cuba thing - I was looking for more of a legal loophole than a "just bring the Canadian passport". Seems like you legally couldn't go there once you claim US citizenship. Just wondering if there were exceptions for people who fly mail or cargo there.

JMT21
02-05-2007, 07:05 PM
JMT21, love may not pay the bills, but when I'm old, looking back on life, I'm not going to be cherishing all the bills I've paid in my life.

I would hope not.

Financial stability is important. Even though I may not be making the big bucks, but I'll make ends meet. A lot of people graduate college with debt and work their way out of it.

Being a pilot is probably one of the least financially stable jobs I know of. Please explain how you plan on getting by, living in a large city (high cost of living) and still make your student loan payments all on 20k a year (if your lucky). I can't make it work. Do you really want to be living at home at 25? Are those the moments you talk about cherishing in your old age?

Thanks for your wishes of good luck. I also extend you the same wishes with your gamble. Life wouldn't be exciting for me if I didn't take the gamble for something I truly want. However, I don't see my education as a gamble, it's a decision that I made after lots of research and thought. I decided I would rather go out and get my certs and ratings while at college than wander around through life, meandering towards the same goal. I'm not going to get stuck working in a cubicle wasting my days away surfing the internet, living out my dreams as a desktop pilot, sitting, waiting, wishing for the job I dream of today.

A degree in commercial aviation is a gamble and aviation management isn't much better. What are going to do when you get furloughed or if you lose your medical? What if you have a family to take care of?

Open your eyes, its not either cublicle or cockpit, there are very many careers in between.

A wise choice is one that results in the best outcome for that person. Each person is different than the other, different choices work better for different people in the same situations. Assuming that one decision will work better than another in every situation is pretty bold and rather ignorant.

There is no assuming, getting into a lot of debt to chase a dream is not a wise choice...even of you go to UND. I'm not telling you not to pursue a career as a pliot, I'm saying if I had to do it all over again I would go about it differently.

Hey, by the way, what year and major are you here at UND

Senior, Aviation Management/Accountancy.

I hear its been pretty cold in GF, stay warm.

HoboPilot
02-09-2007, 05:32 PM
I've got flight instructors from before I came to UND who went down the same path I'm going right now. They're good friends with each other and are sharing an apartment. There are people who have gone to UND, graduated with an aviation degree and are living fine lives now without much more hardship than non-aviation people. It is possible to get out of here and live a normal life. It may not be true for everyone, but I would hope that those people would realize that and go another route such as you are doing.

Let's just leave it at this, the best way to become a commercial pilot is to find the way that suits you best. You do what you see as best for you, and I'll do what I see as best for me, and let everyone else do the same.

Erik

jsfBoat
02-18-2007, 08:56 PM
I'm in a Community College's "Aviation Flight Technonlogy" program; learning how to fly airplanes. One of my dad's friends was a 777 pilot @ Continental. Walked in for his 1st, but found out he is loosing his vision as well as his medical. That hit me hard. I'm now taking Civil Engineering courses for my Bachelors. I figure if I ever loose my medical, I'll go dig tunnels, highways, airports, or whatever. I'm thinking either focusing on either structural, or transportation engineering.

sflpilot
02-19-2007, 08:18 AM
I'm in a Community College's "Aviation Flight Technonlogy" program; learning how to fly airplanes. One of my dad's friends was a 777 pilot @ Continental. Walked in for his 1st, but found out he is loosing his vision as well as his medical. That hit me hard. I'm now taking Civil Engineering courses for my Bachelors. I figure if I ever loose my medical, I'll go dig tunnels, highways, airports, or whatever. I'm thinking either focusing on either structural, or transportation engineering.


Hopefully people are paying closer attention to themselves. People should realize if they are having any problems and deal with them before the medical; if it is something that can be corrected.