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View Full Version : SIC vs Student Time


JerkStore
05-31-2015, 12:41 PM
KC-135 Pilot

After graduating USAF SUPT, and before the instrument qual (Form 8) in the Tanker, are you logging "student" time, even though you have your wings proudly affixed to your chest? Or would you consider your initial Altus flights SIC time?

Hopefully this question isn't too vague


Bellanca
05-31-2015, 06:21 PM
KC-135 Pilot

After graduating USAF SUPT, and before the instrument qual (Form 8) in the Tanker, are you logging "student" time, even though you have your wings proudly affixed to your chest? Or would you consider your initial Altus flights SIC time?

Hopefully this question isn't too vague

When I did my training in some corporate jets (didn't go to flight safety, did everything in the airplane) that was all logged as SIC, and it was 100% legit that way as there were no pax on board.

As a disclaimer, I'm not very familiar with military training, so it may not apply, but look it up in the regs.

Vito
06-01-2015, 03:26 AM
Bellanca,

Check the thread about logging Multi-time because it may pertain to your situation vis-a-vis FAA regs about logging time. What we figured out is when your sole manipulator of the Jet you can log PIC (Primary time). I flew 141's and C-17's and even as a brand new guy, we usually split the total time between the pilots and everybody got some primary some secondary time. I understand as a STUD you may think there could be an issue logging Primary time. Your best solution is ask your IP how he's logging your time. My guess is if you and another STUD are flying a 4 hr sortie, your IP is logging 2.0 for you, 2.0 for the other STUD, and he's logging 4.0 IP time..that was how we did it..
BTW, I never kept a log book in 28 years in the Air Force, believe it or not the Air Force did a good job logging my time. Of course after a few years in a 141, my time was never an issue....we flew a lot!


JerkStore
06-01-2015, 11:01 AM
Thanks for the inputs this far! I'm asking because Airline Apps wants student time broken down by aircraft now. I'm trying to figure out if I should list my 20 hours in the Tanker at Altus as "student" time. The way I see it: If I am a member of a two (pilot) person crew, and the IP ate the fish for lunch, then I, as SIC, must save the day. What say you?

hawgwild
06-01-2015, 11:30 AM
I'm a tanker toad too,

I started logging SIC once I actually started flying the real jet. The way I see it, after my instrument check in the sim, I was qualified in the aircraft and could log SIC.

JerkStore
06-01-2015, 01:10 PM
I'm a tanker toad too,

I started logging SIC once I actually started flying the real jet. The way I see it, after my instrument check in the sim, I was qualified in the aircraft and could log SIC.

Based on that, I should log the time as student.

SetClimbPower
06-01-2015, 09:27 PM
If you look at your AFORMS printout (you should have done a records review as part of your gratuation tasks) from your flight records you will note that all UPT time is lumped together as "Student." That time will never change your entire career. Now that you're rated, all your time will go in as Primary, Secondary, Instructor, Evaluator, or other. BTW, the jump seat time in the T-1 went in the Student block. As far as AFORMS is concerned it was not real Other time.

If you're keeping a military style logbook (like the ones AAFES sells) then it has blocks for Primary, Secondary, etc. If you're keeping a FAA logbook, that can be a little tricky. If you have an ATP, then all time on the controls can be logged as PIC. Since you're most likely splitting hours, just keep it simple and mark Secondary time as SIC and the rest as PIC. Also, Other time does not exist to the FAA so there isn't much point in keeping track of it unless you want to make sure all the math works out. When I got out of USAF, I just took my AFORMS summary page to my job interview along with my most recent logbook.

If you're worried about post military employment, don't be. Depending on your future employer, each company may have specific instructions as to how to convert your military time.

To close up this long story, you are now rated and should not be logging any student time. If you want to keep track of training you should log Dual Received along with the appropriate PIC or SIC.

JerkStore
06-02-2015, 08:31 AM
If you look at your AFORMS printout (you should have done a records review as part of your gratuation tasks) from your flight records you will note that all UPT time is lumped together as "Student." That time will never change your entire career. Now that you're rated, all your time will go in as Primary, Secondary, Instructor, Evaluator, or other. BTW, the jump seat time in the T-1 went in the Student block. As far as AFORMS is concerned it was not real Other time.

If you're keeping a military style logbook (like the ones AAFES sells) then it has blocks for Primary, Secondary, etc. If you're keeping a FAA logbook, that can be a little tricky. If you have an ATP, then all time on the controls can be logged as PIC. Since you're most likely splitting hours, just keep it simple and mark Secondary time as SIC and the rest as PIC. Also, Other time does not exist to the FAA so there isn't much point in keeping track of it unless you want to make sure all the math works out. When I got out of USAF, I just took my AFORMS summary page to my job interview along with my most recent logbook.

If you're worried about post military employment, don't be. Depending on your future employer, each company may have specific instructions as to how to convert your military time.

To close up this long story, you are now rated and should not be logging any student time. If you want to keep track of training you should log Dual Received along with the appropriate PIC or SIC.
....aaaand based on that, I should log it as all SIC. I didn't log any PIC unless I signed for the jet. So my time at Altus will be logged as SIC, and not student. In the T-1, and T-6 section, I listed all flight time as stud/dual.

hawgwild
06-02-2015, 09:50 AM
That's how I log my time. Dual in UPT (unless solo), PIC if I signed for the jet, and SIC if it's a two required crew member airplane and I didn't sign for the jet.

WingAttackPlanR
06-07-2015, 03:15 PM
Fellow tanker guy here as well and I'm the middle of reconciling ARMS with my logbook with airlineapps. I listed all T-37 & T-1 time as dual (even the solos). My tanker time was dual while I was a 'UC', then SIC after my initial copilot check. I listed my 'UP' time at AC upgrade and 'MP' time at CFIC as SIC. Any other subsequent time as an FP or flying with an IP I listed as SIC.



While student time is lumped together, realize you have a number of sorties that can be counted as part of your total number of sorties.



FWIW, I plan on having a cover letter to go with my logbook to explain anomalies. For example, I got to fly right-seat in a C-17 as an Altus IP but ARMS has it all as 'other' since I was an 'XP' but logged I it as dual.

TankerDriver
06-10-2015, 06:10 PM
It's going to depend on the airline (if you're applying to one), but I know that American considers all student time as "SIC". This comes right out of the Q&A on the Pilot Credentials sight. They don't have "student time" in their app to fill out. Just PIC, SIC and Instructor. They consider all IP time to be PIC time.



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