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CloudSpirit
07-14-2015, 12:16 PM
Beware flying in China.

There are lots of ads with big money out there; the reality of living, working and in flying in China far outweighs the benefits in this humble pilot's opinion. Remember, if it's too good to be true, yadda yadda; there's a reason the offers are so exorbitant.

In the interest of disseminating information to fellow aviators, a few friends and I have put together a comprehensive document of the recent experiences of various expat pilots in China from a number of sources, anecdotal exchanges to company memos. Most of the stories circle around the toilet bowl that is Tianjin Airlines, but there are others in the mix as well. Suffice it to say, most of what is related applies to Hainan Group in general (of which mighty gorgon Tianjin is a wriggling tentacle) and can be extrapolated out from there to China in general as the reader sees fit.

Flying Upside Down:
Zippyshare.com - Flying Upside Down.pdf (http://www92.zippyshare.com/v/rRE4ARC2/file.html)
[31.77mb Flying Upside Down.pdf]

There are just too many stories to tell to be honest, but this should give people interested in the theater of ops a good taste of what it's like. Friends don't let friends fly China, and any aviator is a compatriot in this matter of grave significance.

Others who have stories, please do share; or send a PM so we can add what you have to share in our next volume if you don't want to post here. Comments of disbelief welcome; keep the flames to a minimum (we already know it's you, China); this document was prepared for free, accept no imitations.

干杯!
(Gānbēi)


Typhoonpilot
07-14-2015, 01:39 PM
I'd like to read it, but 31.77MB? Something is wrong unless that is a 1500 page manual.


Typhoonpilot

CloudSpirit
07-14-2015, 02:28 PM
It's legit dude.

By the way, latest and greatest, several guys were going for a NTR 320 Capt. interview that required them to remove the "circle to land" restriction... they spent about $1200 each and the interview was canceled a week later.

Oh, and it's about 400 pages... lots of color illustrations and screen grabs.


Cruz5350
07-14-2015, 02:43 PM
None of those links to download work they all direct you to winning iPads etc etc.

CloudSpirit
07-14-2015, 03:29 PM
Cruz5350, what are you talking about? There is a single link (not links plural), and I just clicked on it and it starts a download of a .pdf that's about 32mb. Troll with your Chinese friends elsewhere perhaps?

HighTailN2Pipes
07-14-2015, 06:15 PM
It's BS. The link indeed takes you to "Zippyshare.com" and then promptly dumps you over to the App Store to receive some junk app. Your link is a turd.

cactusmike
07-14-2015, 09:15 PM
Hit the download button to the right on the top. The rest are junk.

Looking forward to reading this. I thought about doing this for a while, and some guys I know did fly there. They are all happy to be back.

Cruz5350
07-14-2015, 09:26 PM
Cruz5350, what are you talking about? There is a single link (not links plural), and I just clicked on it and it starts a download of a .pdf that's about 32mb. Troll with your Chinese friends elsewhere perhaps?

The link you posted has multiple download options everyone I've clicked takes you to either the App Store or some free iPad crap. I can care less about flying in China but it is pretty funny that you think I'm trolling.

Denti
07-15-2015, 04:54 AM
Three posts to his name and all it does is linking to a clicky/malware site? Fishy is too kind a description.

cactusmike
07-15-2015, 07:28 AM
It worked for me, like I said, hit the one on the top right. The rest are crap app links.

Read the first 50 pages, it's very entertaining.

CrimsonEclipse
07-15-2015, 07:38 AM
Worked for me. I'll read it later.

If you're getting prompted to download something else, have your computer scanned.

Cheers!

Selfmade92
07-15-2015, 08:11 AM
Pilots: can operate multimillion dollar machinery - can't open a link and click download :D


it's 414 pages, probably a couple of pics here and there, thats why it's 33mb

CloudSpirit
07-15-2015, 09:59 AM
Actually, I owe Cruz5350 an apology; when you try to follow the link from an iPhone it takes you on a wild goose chase for some reason, popping up into the app store??? Odd. I will add an alternate link for mobile devices shortly; but, I don't recommend reading it from a mobile device, it's not that kind of book.

Sorry Cruz.
C.S.

CloudSpirit
07-15-2015, 10:19 AM
Often when you are redirected from a site it's an indication there is a virus on your computer or the site has been hijacked, but I don't think that's the case this time RE: folks' complaints about the original zippy link which is probably related to mobile devices and compatibility. Here is an alternate link (I can no longer add it to the original post). I have not tested it from my iPhone so if it too is bad... just download to a computer from the original link and enjoy reading on an overnight. It may or may not put you to sleep according to your interest level. 400+ pages LOL.

Flying Upside Down

http://www.filedropper.com/flyingupsidedown
(31.77mb Flying Upside Down.pdf)

For anyone out there who has "considered" a project like this book or has the phrase "I have friends with stories like this" going through their head, please PM me as you see appropriate.

Lastly, our team forgot to edit the email contact listed in the introduction and it's no longer valid. The genius who was supposed to set it up lost the login info and, well, that's that. So this account here at APC is a good contact point now.

Fly safe!
C.S.

PS: IF you want to re-post this pdf elsewhere, please feel free. Our team would appreciate original credit, but other than that the intent of the work we all did was to inform people about realities and cut through the sunshine being blown up would-be contract pilot's asses. We are planning to post at PPRuNE etc but if someone beats us to the punch we won't be disappointed. We'll simply pop in, thank the effort and add our 2-3 cents as necessary.

Probe
07-15-2015, 06:58 PM
It's legit dude.

By the way, latest and greatest, several guys were going for a NTR 320 Capt. interview that required them to remove the "circle to land" restriction... they spent about $1200 each and the interview was canceled a week later.

Oh, and it's about 400 pages... lots of color illustrations and screen grabs.

Almost all contract jobs require that circle to land restriction be removed.

CloudSpirit
07-15-2015, 11:55 PM
^ Not contract jobs in Japan :0)

Probe
07-16-2015, 01:09 AM
^ Not contract jobs in Japan :0)

Please read word number one of my post. The word ALMOST.

Based on your previous posts, I figured you would say something like that.

So you have have a couple of Japanese 320 jobs that pay less than 10k USD a month after tax (Vanilla, Peach, Jetstar). A 767 job that currently mostly hires only JCAB licensed captains. ALL these jobs take 6-9 months of ground school. I might do that for ANA, but not for any other job in Japan. Then again, I have always chose NOT to do it for ANA, even though it is a very good contract job.

Pretty much every other contract job in Asia, that pays anything and hires real pilots, requires that circling restriction be removed from your license. Most countries also will not accept a FAA temp license. You need the real deal.

I got a 737 rating a year ago. A week later, I got the circling restriction removed.

When I went to the contract world the first time, I didn't do it till I was ready to go. It cost me 3 months work.

For anybody thinking about doing contract work, do your homework ahead of time. Each country/Company has its own unique requirements, some of which can be EXTREMELY difficult, expensive, or time consuming to meet. Some, all three.

Japan requires all flight times to be in minutes, not decimal. And your logbooks have to be PERFECT, no mistakes. Korea requires flight times to be broken down within a type (aka 737 700 vs 800, 320 vs 321) Some require cross country time, believe it or not. These are just a few examples. Get ALL the requirements as far ahead as you can, to see if you can EVER meet them.

If you don't do it their way, you won't get the job. Period. You won't go there to teach them how to fly. They will teach you how to fly their way, to their SOPS's. Or you won't ever fly the line for them.

I flew in China for a two year contract. It was awesome. Made lots of money, and had a great time. Was it perfect? Not a chance. Neither is the mythical "dream" legacy airline job. I have 20 years at one, and am counting the days till I can get another LOA so I can go back to a contract job, probably China.

The Dominican
07-16-2015, 02:41 AM
People that have a good experience at a particular gig rarely take the time to come to any of these web boards and tell others about it...., most of what you get is the angry rants...!

I know several people that work in China as well as the ME..., there are some satisfied costumer out there believe it or not...!

NEDude
07-16-2015, 07:28 AM
I have been in China for about a year and a half now. In my experience it is a bit of an adventure. It is like the Wild Wild Wes...er...East here. Not for everyone, and after a year and a half my patience is beginning to wear thin. Can't speak to all airlines, but one of the guys here is on his fourth different Chinese airline in ten years (yes, you can switch). He says they all have their issues, just some issues are different than others. It is a matter of hoping the airline you get on with has issues you can deal with.

CloudSpirit
07-16-2015, 08:59 AM
For anybody thinking about doing contract work, do your homework ahead of time.

...some of which can be EXTREMELY difficult, expensive, or time consuming to meet. Some, all three.


Yes yes and yes. I've heard horror stories about plenty of foreign aviation authorities from all over, not just China. And the homework bit, that's why we put together this little project, to help others out who are trying to find "in the trenches" information beyond a soudbyte in a forum on PPRunE or APC. Altruism aside, it's also been cathartic; read the stories as angry rants or humorous exchanges, you decide. But, ~1,200 views of this thread in 2 days is pretty significant; I think it's safe to say our mission is accomplished.

What a lot of would-be contract pilots don't realize is the significant cost one incurs chasing down a supposed 300K job in China or elsewhere. You buy airline tickets to interview, airline tickets to test, airline tickets re-test. You have hotel bills, local transportation bills, medical test bills, visas to buy, documents to prepare and translate... the list goes on and suddenly you're in $5000+ for a bite at an apple that ends up being a very slim chance as Probe pointed out. And that apple may not be a flavor you can stomach. I've heard of the Chinese washing out 50 guys to take one (notice I used the word "guys" here which is also significant). Once you shell out that money, GOOD LUCK getting it back. I've heard of plenty of stories where guys didn't get paid back, or only recovered a portion of what they spent.

Interestingly, the advice we stand behind is the strategy Probe advocates: GET AN LOA, DON'T QUIT. So, a lot of good insights being offered in the comments here.

74pilot
07-16-2015, 09:08 AM
People that have a good experience at a particular gig rarely take the time to come to any of these web boards and tell others about it...., most of what you get is the angry rants...!

I know several people that work in China as well as the ME..., there are some satisfied costumer out there believe it or not...!

Of course it's not all bad, if everyone's experience was horrible how many airplanes would move in Asia?

I do think it's valuable for any potential candidate to know the real downsides in addition to the assumed upside. As they say, "buyer beware". Gouge from the dissatisfied edge of the bell curve it's still good gouge.

Probe
07-16-2015, 05:41 PM
For info on various contract gigs, PPrune is a good (cough cough???) resource. It is actually a horrific forum. While APC might be 50% DB's, PPRUNE is probably closer to 90%. You have to spend a great deal of time sorting through all the rants to get good info. But that good info is there.

As much time as it takes to sort through 3000 posts on ANA or Korean Air, it is a wise investment in time. Probably the easiest way to sort through the chaff to find one poster who seems adult and sane, and click on his name to see all of his posts.

Different strokes for different pilots. If you are a 28 year old RJ FO and dream about being a 777 Captain, Emirates is probably the best deal going. If you are a 50 year old with 15-20K hours, you can make a whole bunch of money, very quickly, in China. If you look at other cultures and can't figure out why they are so crazy, well, it is probably better you stay home.

CloudSpirit
07-16-2015, 06:48 PM
<shameless plug>

^ or, instead of sifting through 3000 'DB' posts on dubious boards, you can read 400 pages of pure gold, company memos, photos and brutal memes.

BTW, you reading it Probe? If you are and have any input to offer (since it sounds like you have some good experience on the matter) feel free to drop a dime in the PM box.

</shameless plug>

Bigpimppilot
07-17-2015, 09:35 PM
I read the whole thing. couple years ago I did a 5 week study abroad in Beijing and found part of a small ribcage in a beef dish. From then on there I only ate at Pizza Hut. Don't mess with my food. Good book Duke. Where did you work before you went over?

penguin22
07-17-2015, 10:44 PM
book is freakin hilarious

CloudSpirit
07-18-2015, 08:20 AM
Thanks for the kudos, folks!

It's rewarding to see that several years of blood, sweat and heartache puts a smile on the faces of others.

"Duke" is something of a composite of several pilots, similarly minded in their professional role, rolled into one. We're open to taking the stories of others for our next volume which we've already begun working on. Some of us come from North America, some from South America and some from Europe. A pretty eclectic group to be honest, now that I think of it!

Thanks again for the time anyone spends reading our accounts; it is really a boost to hear that Flying Upside Down resonates with others!

Probe
07-18-2015, 06:30 PM
It's legit dude.

By the way, latest and greatest, several guys were going for a NTR 320 Capt. interview that required them to remove the "circle to land" restriction... they spent about $1200 each and the interview was canceled a week later.

Oh, and it's about 400 pages... lots of color illustrations and screen grabs.

The airline probably never offered the position of NTR Captain. A handful of kids in the hiring department came up with the idea as they are under pressure to hire more pilots. They probably advertised it without getting anyones approval.

This is just one of the "dragons" there. Beware of any "sounds to good to be true" promise offered by a contract agency. Foreign bases are probably the biggest. It works out for very few, and usually not for long when they change equipment to a destination.

Check 6
07-19-2015, 05:31 AM
I have to say...that is one of the funniest things I have read in ages...:) Love the stories. I go to China often and love it there....but I don't "live" there...Much different experience.

Thanks for the warnings....and the laughs!

nukem
07-24-2015, 03:20 PM
Thanks for the book, it has been entertaining and informative.

airspeed1974
07-26-2015, 07:59 AM
I have a lot to say about this excellent book you wrote. In the meantime this happened last night at our company. How the guy managed to get the fuel on the plane is beyond me. He tried to light it on fire

http://m.baidu.com/news?fr=ald02&tn=bdbody&query=深圳航空点火&src=http%3A%2F%2Fnews.qq.com%2Fa%2F20150726%2F0174 35.htm

globalexpress
07-27-2015, 03:53 PM
Beware flying in China.

There are lots of ads with big money out there; the reality of living, working and in flying in China far outweighs the benefits in this humble pilot's opinion. Remember, if it's too good to be true, yadda yadda; there's a reason the offers are so exorbitant.

In the interest of disseminating information to fellow aviators, a few friends and I have put together a comprehensive document of the recent experiences of various expat pilots in China from a number of sources, anecdotal exchanges to company memos. Most of the stories circle around the toilet bowl that is Tianjin Airlines, but there are others in the mix as well. Suffice it to say, most of what is related applies to Hainan Group in general (of which mighty gorgon Tianjin is a wriggling tentacle) and can be extrapolated out from there to China in general as the reader sees fit.

Flying Upside Down:
Zippyshare.com - Flying Upside Down.pdf (http://www92.zippyshare.com/v/rRE4ARC2/file.html)
[31.77mb Flying Upside Down.pdf]

There are just too many stories to tell to be honest, but this should give people interested in the theater of ops a good taste of what it's like. Friends don't let friends fly China, and any aviator is a compatriot in this matter of grave significance.

Others who have stories, please do share; or send a PM so we can add what you have to share in our next volume if you don't want to post here. Comments of disbelief welcome; keep the flames to a minimum (we already know it's you, China); this document was prepared for free, accept no imitations.

干杯!
(Gānbēi)

Just finished reading this document this afternoon on a long flight home, having read bits and pieces here and there over the past couple of weeks. Very entertaining. Very scary. I never had any interest of doing an overseas contract flying in China, and I certainly do not now.

The only "reassuring" thing I took away from that document is that I hope the Chinese military is as completely inept as their airline industry. If they are, we have little to fear from them as a rising power.

CloudSpirit
07-27-2015, 05:10 PM
Thanks to everyone checking in, reading the book and offering opinions. The team really appreciates it. Please do feel free to share it with your friends and colleagues. Someone suggested I send it over to ALPA but I don't have any contacts over there at the moment...

Anyhow, just in case you thought it was all over, in the past, ancient news, here is an article from a couple of days ago depending on your timezone:

Man Tries To Set A Fire Aboard Plane In China (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/china-plane-fire_55b4e478e4b0074ba5a4d2a8?utm_hp_ref=tw)

Not that I'm the biggest fan of Huff, but they do report on interesting junk from time to time. This excerpt is particularly worrisome:

It was the latest in a rash of dangerous incidents aboard Chinese flights, including passengers opening emergency exits and fights between flyers and crew members.

Yikes. So, it's not out of the ordinary for some dillweed to set his seat on fire and go grape-ape? Hmmm. Sounds like Flying Upside Down to me...

Cheers!

bottoms up
07-28-2015, 04:06 AM
Terror on Chinese flight as passenger tries to start fire 'with petrol and lighter' | South China Morning Post (http://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/1843760/passenger-subdued-after-attempting-set-fire-plane)

Here is the link with pictures from South China Morning Post. Got a little chuckle reading it this morning after reading your book on the way over here.

Xiexie!

Probe
07-28-2015, 02:26 PM
Just finished reading this document this afternoon on a long flight home, having read bits and pieces here and there over the past couple of weeks. Very entertaining. Very scary. I never had any interest of doing an overseas contract flying in China, and I certainly do not now.

The only "reassuring" thing I took away from that document is that I hope the Chinese military is as completely inept as their airline industry. If they are, we have little to fear from them as a rising power.

I hope the their military is far more inept than their airline industry. The Chinese airline I worked for was the smoothest, most reliable, and leanest airline I have ever seen. The whole airline "group" was the same. Hainan Group.

I am back at a US legacy carrier now. By comparison, it seems third world.

I will be returning soon to the "inept" chinese airline industry.

SubwaySandwich
07-28-2015, 02:48 PM
Just finished reading it. Classic American Contract A**holes. You are exactly what should have never left San Diego. Americans have the sh*ttiest rap with contract flying and this just underlines it all. Thanks for the bitter diatribe against the people's republic.:cool:

airspeed1974
07-28-2015, 05:21 PM
Just finished reading it. Classic American Contract A**holes. You are exactly what should have never left San Diego. Americans have the sh*ttiest rap with contract flying and this just underlines it all. Thanks for the bitter diatribe against the people's republic.:cool:

Dude, have you ever even been to China? I have, for the last 5 years. 90 percent of that book is spot on! I haven't had time yet but will offer my views hopefully tomorrow.

I'm also a yank. I ran a crew leasing company for years and employed plenty of US guys in India, Russia, Africa and had very few problems.

That's total BS about Americans having that stigma associated with them. I have seen lots of Brazilians gone home or sent home here. And still I wouldn't say that about them either. It's the individual.

CloudSpirit
07-28-2015, 05:52 PM
Just finished reading it. Classic American Contract A**holes. You are exactly what should have never left San Diego. Americans have the sh*ttiest rap with contract flying and this just underlines it all. Thanks for the bitter diatribe against the people's republic.:cool:

This one should give the legit visitors here a little chuckle:
http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/regional/89625-new-mesa-thread-3.html
When did Mesa get all these Fanboys?

Subs, you might want to go do a little more homework before you go trolling; I'm curious, how is it you have such specific knowledge about a dumpy little American regional (Mesa) that only code-shares for their flying? Mesa fanboys? It's an interesting choice for your first post under this profile you just created.

Well, go ahead and concoct whatever story you need to repair your cover. But if you really love the PRC so much, I fully encourage you to bid us all adieu and plunge yourself headlong into the superior culture and society over there! I'm betting if you survive a month, you'll be ready to take Goose's advice on p. 294 and, "Stop being so pro-China."

Or, maybe I'm wrong! Maybe you'll keep advocating for the PLA military leaders who pull the strings that make the DPRK threaten the USA with nuclear war every other week. Either way, your choice at any rate, LOL! :rolleyes:

Neosporin
07-28-2015, 07:46 PM
Just finished reading this document this afternoon on a long flight home, having read bits and pieces here and there over the past couple of weeks. Very entertaining. Very scary. I never had any interest of doing an overseas contract flying in China, and I certainly do not now.

The only "reassuring" thing I took away from that document is that I hope the Chinese military is as completely inept as their airline industry. If they are, we have little to fear from them as a rising power.

how is anyone reading this? it doesn't download or appear anywhere.

CloudSpirit
07-29-2015, 01:13 PM
Some people have complained when downloading from mobile devices like a smart-phone etc.

Here is another alternate link in case the others have problems:
Mega File Upload - Flying Upside Down.pdf (http://www.megafileupload.com/94jQ/Flying_Upside_Down.pdf)
[31.77mb Flying Upside Down.pdf]
NOTE: Please do NOT sign up for their service to download this file.

Previous links:
Zippyshare.com - Flying Upside Down.pdf (http://www92.zippyshare.com/v/rRE4ARC2/file.html)
http://www.filedropper.com/flyingupsidedown

I'm actually surprised the previous links have lasted so long (I just checked and they are still up); since I assumed most of these file-sharing sites are run by the Chinese, I expected them to have purged our uploads by now. If anyone else has problems I recommend downloading to a computer. I can add other download links as necessary.

C.S.

BAKEBAKE
07-29-2015, 05:19 PM
Definitely says advertisement above all the links below the top right one...just saying. it worked great for me...

cactusmike
08-03-2015, 11:56 PM
Finished it. Great read, although a little disorganized. Glad I didn't pull the trigger on doing a China contract.

CloudSpirit
08-04-2015, 08:50 PM
Finished it. Great read, although a little disorganized. Glad I didn't pull the trigger on doing a China contract.

Thanks for stopping by to leave your comments Cactus! Yes, it's a little disheveled... but I hope it's not too bad to distract from the essentials of information that we tried to pass forward.

If you have a chance, can I ask what contract you were looking at, when and why at the time you decided nil on the offer?

Best,
C.S.

cactusmike
08-05-2015, 11:43 PM
Shenzhen on the 757 when I was still current, then (you are going to laugh) Tianjin when I was requal'ed on the Airbus.

I never made it further than e-mails to the recruiting agencies. What stopped me was a change in our leave of absence policy and the fact that I was approaching 55. The crazy ATP written and the delays in training were another factor. I had an interview set up at Korean that I would have taken before a China contract.

I'm glad you had an interesting experience. I think it's good to get out and push your personal limits sometimes. We had a few guys go to Deer and a couple of other carriers. They liked it but were ready to come back.

busbusbaby
08-06-2015, 06:09 AM
Read it and have talked to some new hires i have flown with back in the states, that flew in china on the airbus. This is pretty much spot on and maybe a little to kind. Some of the stories I have heard from ex contractors in china are scary.

CloudSpirit
08-06-2015, 06:46 PM
Read it and have talked to some new hires i have flown with back in the states, that flew in china...

BBBby, thanks for dropping in to share what you've heard! Can you do me a favor and please turn those guys on to this thread and book OK? Indeed, we did necessarily have to pull a few punches (regrettably as is the nature of things) to keep some of the stories plausibly anonymous per the request of Captains who were involved therewith. Others didn't care a rat's patootie and so the more outrageous stuff is actually quite true to life (the other stuff is accurate too, just missing some gory details).

What pilots who read recruiters' blast emails about exciting offers of {{ca$h!!!!!}} don't understand, myself included once upon a time, is the reality of living and working in China. This is why the book was assembled and 400+ pages written, edited and revised numerous times over the course of a year or two: to provide insight to the people who need it to make an informed decision... and be a little entertaining along the way by talkin' some trash and making some funnies.

Again, thanks for your comments and pass the info on to the newhires you mentioned.

C.S.


If you haven't read FUD yet... what the heck are you waiting for?


https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-Px_mIswzURw/VcQbWVUClDI/AAAAAAAAAAk/V7ZFJk62dXQ/w281-h288-no/getin.png
Yeah... get IN.

airspeed1974
08-13-2015, 07:41 PM
have finally found some time to reply this post. First i would like to thank the OP for writing this book. Having been in China for the last 5 years it was a very welcome comic relief. I have since passed this little gem along to many of my coworkers. So now i wanted to give the most unbiased opinion on coming to China and working here that i could. A little background on myself, i have been an expat for over 10 years. I have been to 95 different countries and lived in 13. China for the last 5 years. I am from the states. You can take my opinion for what its worth but i think i have a pretty good background to be able to comment on this book.

First let me say for those back home if you have a job at a Legacy DO NOT LEAVE to come here. Unless you owe money to the mob i couldn’t see any reason at all to come to China when your quality of life will be drastically changed. However if your on a leave then yes it might make sense. Do NOT look at just the salary because behind those numbers is a lot of hard work, patience, and sacrifice.

I do not work for Tianjin, i work for Shenzhen Airlines. HOWEVER, i do have a good friend with the initials SS that did work at TJA from around 2011-2014. The stories he told me were the same as the OP, spot on!

I do not BS, i tell it like it is. I am not here to promote anyone or company. I have had interactions with HNA, Juneyao and China Southern. Juneau seemed OK, CSA was OK but from friends that are there now on the B787 its very disorganized. HNA was a complete disaster. Like a monkey show. And from what current friends there on the 787 tell me it still is.

Now about the book. I would like to share my opinion on what is good and what is not so good.

GOOD POINTS ABOUT LIVING HERE IN SHENZHEN

1. I came here 5 years ago from Japan. I managed to pay off my House, my Car, my Motorcycles, buy properties, invest, and by the end of this contract next year i will have enough to semi retire. I am only in my very early 40s.
2. I met my wife here. I also met many woman here and had many great times. Its like disneyland.
3. I have gotten to see some cool things and places. Meet some very unique people.
4. Hong Kong is right next door. And Shenzhen is not the real china. Its very westernized. Health care is good at the Hong Kong or Western Hospitals here. TCM has been good too but not for everything.
5. My apartment is very nice. Everything works unlike my experiences in india and Africa.
6. I have a car here. The driving is Horrendous but ill touch on that later.
7. There is lots to do. Nightclubs are great except for the smoking. Shopping malls are modern and good.
8. One hour from Shenzhen you have some very nice beaches.
9. The food is good here if you like Chinese food.
10. Coffee shops are numerous here and some very good ones.
11. If you like hot weather (i do not) then you would love it here.
12. There are good markets here to buy fake products. Some are just as good if not better. I had lost my power cord to my IMAC. And i had also broken the glass on my IPHONE. I found both here that were just as good and much much cheaper.

BAD POINTS ABOUT LIVING IN SHENZHEN AND OTHER PARTS OF CHINA

1. The OP never talked about driving in China that much. Let me be the one to tell you that these people are some if not the absolute worst drivers on the planet. Esp the female drivers. Its almost like they do not even know they are in a car. Never use blinkers but masters at using the horn.
2. People here generally are slow as hell. Esp the drivers. Pls name one Chinese F1 race car driver????
3. Accidents ala plenty. Totally moronic driving skills. There is a reason more chinese drive bicycles than cars, you can kill less people that way.
4. SZ is not really polluted but Beijing, Tianjin, other places are HORRIBLE. That stuff really scares me. Ironically sometimes there is no pollution in BJ. Esp when there is an important summit going on. The call it the APEC blue
5. Manners do not exist. Forget about people holding the door. Spitting here drives me nuts. Totally disgusting. The loud talking will drive you insane.The word courteous and considerate is nonexistant here.
6. Forget about manners while driving. Its insane the stuff i have seen.
7. China is getting expensive.
8. Be careful where and what you eat. You can get very ill. I would NEVER eat the food off the vendors in the street.
9. Police are VERY lazy here. Clowns with uniforms. But in some ways its much better than in America which IMHO is turning into a police state.
10. There are many fake things. Be careful as the liquor your drinking could be fake
11. Banking here is a complete headache. The OP was incorrect about sending money. As foreigners we can do as much as we want. There is NO LIMIT. However you must show your tax receipts from the company, your passport, your contract and as of 2015 your salary slip. I have sent 140,000 USD at one time back home and never a problem. But be prepared to spend atleast one hour. Also many times in China the lazy workers will pass the buck so you need to be forceful with what you want.
12. Noise. These people have no idea what volume control is. Take for example there walkie talkies, their ATMS, when they talk on the phone, the speaker in the cockpit, all have only 2 settings for these morons. OFF and LOUD
13. The people can be very annoying. There is a good joke. What is the difference between a racist and tourist in China? TWO WEEKS!!!

GOOD POINTS ABOUT FLYING IN CHINA
1. What would take you maybe 7 to 15 years to do in the states you can do right away here, that is be Captain.
2. Some companies will type you on B787, A320, and A330/340 as well as business jets. I PERSONALLY know MANY people that have done this.
3. The best part of actually flying in China is flying OUTSIDE of china. Flying domestic is the 7th level of HELL.

BAD POINTS ABOUT FLYING IN CHINA
1. Ok this part could be a book in and of itself. Lets start with Delays. Delays here are more than ANYWHERE in the world. It is a FACT that Beijing, and Shanghai have around a 30 % on time rate. They are the most delayed airports in the world. I would venture to say that the average delay over my 5 years here has been 1 hour. That is AVERAGE. I have had 10 hour delays. All this week i have had 4 hour delays on every flight. The total control of AIRSPACE by the Chinese PLAF is the main reason. Other factors are inept and zero management skills in both the airlines and ATC.

2. Flying in China is pure HELL. My first year here was fine, and then it slowly got worse and worse. You get to a point here where you just don’t care about anything anymore. Its more like a game, and a game of survival that is. Trying to deviate weather is a pain in the ass. ATC on many occasions will ask you to do the most ridiculous of things. How many times in Beijing have i pushed back to taxi to RWY 36R and then told to make a U-Turn basically and hold as our takeoff time changed. So we are sitting there wasting fuel when they just could have simply left us at the gate.

3. ATC in China sucks. They truly have no clue. They do not even use correct phraseology and they love to use the words EXPEDITE and MAINTAIN. You will hear many times an ATC controller tell you to descend to lets say 6000 Meter (19700FT) and you are like 280 miles away from the airport and this guy tells you descent rate more than 2500 FPM. Go ahead and ask him why. His answer will be traffic. Ok traffic where? Oh its 12 o’clock same direction 80 kilometers away. ***!!!!!

The real reason they have you do this is so they can hand you off to the next guy but they lie to you all the time. Ok and lets talk about use of the word MAINTAIN. Not sure where you all flew, but ATC where i come would use it like (Hawker N125CF maintain 2000FT until intercept the GS your cleared ILS RWY 22L at Newark. Well here in China you will be flying along and all of a sudden out of the blue ATC will say, Maintain 2700 meters. Your like HUH??? Even when they have you change radio freq. they tell you maintain level. It totally screws with your head because it makes you think you did something wrong. It is TRULY annoying.

4. I am not sure about TJA, but at SZA you have a crew bus that picks you up at designated points and takes you to work. Myself i have a car. The bus SUCKS because 1. It picks you up way early, 2. your the LAST one to be dropped off. So just to give you an example of how retarded the airline is, and how in China the LEFT hand NEVER talks to the RIGHT. Today my flight is supposed to be from SZ to SHA at 1615 local. Well i call and they tell me the plane is still in Chengdu with no takeoff time.

So at our company we need to be there 1:35 before departure time or 30 mins before inbound plane landing time whichever comes last. So since it takes me about 35 mins to drive to airport i tell the “dispatcher” pls call me when the plane takes off from CD. She calls me FORTY mins after it took off to tell me its landing at 310. Ok so i just need be there at 240. Great!

Well, i get there and my FO comes to me and says, Oh Captain the landing time is 430, our plane coming from Wuxi. WHAT??? Oh yea they changed planes. So now i am at the company at 3pm and now have another 1 hour and 30 mins to sit in the crew room with the smoking copilots (chainsmokers) or goto the hotel which would clearly extend my duty time. Plane gets here, we go out and i ask the FO to find out about flow control.

ATC tells us our departure time is 1207 at night!!!!!!!! Well our company never put in a new flight plan when they changed. Then this idiot at ATC tells us to report ready which means all pax onboard. Well how the F am i supposed to do that if i got 8 hours to go, board the pax and have them go crazy????

An hour later ATC tells us we can leave now. *** again…..

This is a typical day here.

5. Passengers here are animals. Just go on youtube and type in crazy chinese passengers. Nuff said

6. Copilots here are not that bad and some are very close friends of mine. For the most part they fly ok. However, they cannot fly a visual to save their life. They have no concept that flying is an art not a science. They way they do things will **** you off. Talk about finger banging the FMC, well these automatons cannot put in a HDG, ALT, SQWUAK CODE, OR FREQ without typing it into the FMC first. It drives me NUTS.

7. Pilots in China fly SLOW AS HELL. Almost in reverse. They have no idea what the hold short line is. Just hang out at 36R in Beijing and look left and right. You will see that they are always holding short of the CAT 2 line. They are too afraid to come to the actual hold short line.Its ridiculous especially when your taxing past the and that A330 tail is sticking out cause the moron won’t pull all the way up!

8. How many times i have been blinded by taxi lights or ldg lights because they refuse to turn them off even when they are facing right at you. IDIOTS!

SOME OTHER KEY POINTS

1. This place will make you crazy. If your already crazy it will make you insane.
2. Woman is the only good thing here and money
3. You will change after spending a few years here. You will grow to HATE flying. You will be applying for a job at Walmart in no time
4. Even writing this I’m getting ****ed off. These people are the most ANNOYING on earth.
5. There is a reason they copy, they learn by rote memorization, they are the slowest humans on this planet.
6. Lets configure to Flaps 1 at 20 miles away Captain because i don’t know how to fly 210 or 180 to the marker!
7. Without and FMC they would die
8. Their idea of aerobatics is a 30 degree banked turn
9. Watch them drive in an underground parking lot its hilarious. Ya know if the incline that goes to outside? Chinese never will drive up the incline if there is someone waiting to pay. They will ALWAYS wait at the bottom. They do not have the skill to make the payment to the attendant while holding the E brake or normal break.
10. Again Chinese drivers are the worst. Leading cause of accidents is chinese.

NEDude
08-14-2015, 12:12 AM
have finally found some time to reply this post. First i would like to thank the OP for writing this book. Having been in China for the last 5 years it was a very welcome comic relief. I have since passed this little gem along to many of my coworkers. So now i wanted to give the most unbiased opinion on coming to China and working here that i could. A little background on myself, i have been an expat for over 10 years. I have been to 95 different countries and lived in 13. China for the last 5 years. I am from the states. You can take my opinion for what its worth but i think i have a pretty good background to be able to comment on this book.

First let me say for those back home if you have a job at a Legacy DO NOT LEAVE to come here. Unless you owe money to the mob i couldn’t see any reason at all to come to China when your quality of life will be drastically changed. However if your on a leave then yes it might make sense. Do NOT look at just the salary because behind those numbers is a lot of hard work, patience, and sacrifice.

I do not work for Tianjin, i work for Shenzhen Airlines. HOWEVER, i do have a good friend with the initials SS that did work at TJA from around 2011-2014. The stories he told me were the same as the OP, spot on!

I do not BS, i tell it like it is. I am not here to promote anyone or company. I have had interactions with HNA, Juneyao and China Southern. Juneau seemed OK, CSA was OK but from friends that are there now on the B787 its very disorganized. HNA was a complete disaster. Like a monkey show. And from what current friends there on the 787 tell me it still is.

Now about the book. I would like to share my opinion on what is good and what is not so good.

GOOD POINTS ABOUT LIVING HERE IN SHENZHEN

1. I came here 5 years ago from Japan. I managed to pay off my House, my Car, my Motorcycles, buy properties, invest, and by the end of this contract next year i will have enough to semi retire. I am only in my very early 40s.
2. I met my wife here. I also met many woman here and had many great times. Its like disneyland.
3. I have gotten to see some cool things and places. Meet some very unique people.
4. Hong Kong is right next door. And Shenzhen is not the real china. Its very westernized. Health care is good at the Hong Kong or Western Hospitals here. TCM has been good too but not for everything.
5. My apartment is very nice. Everything works unlike my experiences in india and Africa.
6. I have a car here. The driving is Horrendous but ill touch on that later.
7. There is lots to do. Nightclubs are great except for the smoking. Shopping malls are modern and good.
8. One hour from Shenzhen you have some very nice beaches.
9. The food is good here if you like Chinese food.
10. Coffee shops are numerous here and some very good ones.
11. If you like hot weather (i do not) then you would love it here.
12. There are good markets here to buy fake products. Some are just as good if not better. I had lost my power cord to my IMAC. And i had also broken the glass on my IPHONE. I found both here that were just as good and much much cheaper.

BAD POINTS ABOUT LIVING IN SHENZHEN AND OTHER PARTS OF CHINA

1. The OP never talked about driving in China that much. Let me be the one to tell you that these people are some if not the absolute worst drivers on the planet. Esp the female drivers. Its almost like they do not even know they are in a car. Never use blinkers but masters at using the horn.
2. People here generally are slow as hell. Esp the drivers. Pls name one Chinese F1 race car driver????
3. Accidents ala plenty. Totally moronic driving skills. There is a reason more chinese drive bicycles than cars, you can kill less people that way.
4. SZ is not really polluted but Beijing, Tianjin, other places are HORRIBLE. That stuff really scares me. Ironically sometimes there is no pollution in BJ. Esp when there is an important summit going on. The call it the APEC blue
5. Manners do not exist. Forget about people holding the door. Spitting here drives me nuts. Totally disgusting. The loud talking will drive you insane.The word courteous and considerate is nonexistant here.
6. Forget about manners while driving. Its insane the stuff i have seen.
7. China is getting expensive.
8. Be careful where and what you eat. You can get very ill. I would NEVER eat the food off the vendors in the street.
9. Police are VERY lazy here. Clowns with uniforms. But in some ways its much better than in America which IMHO is turning into a police state.
10. There are many fake things. Be careful as the liquor your drinking could be fake
11. Banking here is a complete headache. The OP was incorrect about sending money. As foreigners we can do as much as we want. There is NO LIMIT. However you must show your tax receipts from the company, your passport, your contract and as of 2015 your salary slip. I have sent 140,000 USD at one time back home and never a problem. But be prepared to spend atleast one hour. Also many times in China the lazy workers will pass the buck so you need to be forceful with what you want.
12. Noise. These people have no idea what volume control is. Take for example there walkie talkies, their ATMS, when they talk on the phone, the speaker in the cockpit, all have only 2 settings for these morons. OFF and LOUD
13. The people can be very annoying. There is a good joke. What is the difference between a racist and tourist in China? TWO WEEKS!!!

GOOD POINTS ABOUT FLYING IN CHINA
1. What would take you maybe 7 to 15 years to do in the states you can do right away here, that is be Captain.
2. Some companies will type you on B787, A320, and A330/340 as well as business jets. I PERSONALLY know MANY people that have done this.
3. The best part of actually flying in China is flying OUTSIDE of china. Flying domestic is the 7th level of HELL.

BAD POINTS ABOUT FLYING IN CHINA
1. Ok this part could be a book in and of itself. Lets start with Delays. Delays here are more than ANYWHERE in the world. It is a FACT that Beijing, and Shanghai have around a 30 % on time rate. They are the most delayed airports in the world. I would venture to say that the average delay over my 5 years here has been 1 hour. That is AVERAGE. I have had 10 hour delays. All this week i have had 4 hour delays on every flight. The total control of AIRSPACE by the Chinese PLAF is the main reason. Other factors are inept and zero management skills in both the airlines and ATC.

2. Flying in China is pure HELL. My first year here was fine, and then it slowly got worse and worse. You get to a point here where you just don’t care about anything anymore. Its more like a game, and a game of survival that is. Trying to deviate weather is a pain in the ass. ATC on many occasions will ask you to do the most ridiculous of things. How many times in Beijing have i pushed back to taxi to RWY 36R and then told to make a U-Turn basically and hold as our takeoff time changed. So we are sitting there wasting fuel when they just could have simply left us at the gate.

3. ATC in China sucks. They truly have no clue. They do not even use correct phraseology and they love to use the words EXPEDITE and MAINTAIN. You will hear many times an ATC controller tell you to descend to lets say 6000 Meter (19700FT) and you are like 280 miles away from the airport and this guy tells you descent rate more than 2500 FPM. Go ahead and ask him why. His answer will be traffic. Ok traffic where? Oh its 12 o’clock same direction 80 kilometers away. ***!!!!!

The real reason they have you do this is so they can hand you off to the next guy but they lie to you all the time. Ok and lets talk about use of the word MAINTAIN. Not sure where you all flew, but ATC where i come would use it like (Hawker N125CF maintain 2000FT until intercept the GS your cleared ILS RWY 22L at Newark. Well here in China you will be flying along and all of a sudden out of the blue ATC will say, Maintain 2700 meters. Your like HUH??? Even when they have you change radio freq. they tell you maintain level. It totally screws with your head because it makes you think you did something wrong. It is TRULY annoying.

4. I am not sure about TJA, but at SZA you have a crew bus that picks you up at designated points and takes you to work. Myself i have a car. The bus SUCKS because 1. It picks you up way early, 2. your the LAST one to be dropped off. So just to give you an example of how retarded the airline is, and how in China the LEFT hand NEVER talks to the RIGHT. Today my flight is supposed to be from SZ to SHA at 1615 local. Well i call and they tell me the plane is still in Chengdu with no takeoff time.

So at our company we need to be there 1:35 before departure time or 30 mins before inbound plane landing time whichever comes last. So since it takes me about 35 mins to drive to airport i tell the “dispatcher” pls call me when the plane takes off from CD. She calls me FORTY mins after it took off to tell me its landing at 310. Ok so i just need be there at 240. Great!

Well, i get there and my FO comes to me and says, Oh Captain the landing time is 430, our plane coming from Wuxi. WHAT??? Oh yea they changed planes. So now i am at the company at 3pm and now have another 1 hour and 30 mins to sit in the crew room with the smoking copilots (chainsmokers) or goto the hotel which would clearly extend my duty time. Plane gets here, we go out and i ask the FO to find out about flow control.

ATC tells us our departure time is 1207 at night!!!!!!!! Well our company never put in a new flight plan when they changed. Then this idiot at ATC tells us to report ready which means all pax onboard. Well how the F am i supposed to do that if i got 8 hours to go, board the pax and have them go crazy????

An hour later ATC tells us we can leave now. *** again…..

This is a typical day here.

5. Passengers here are animals. Just go on youtube and type in crazy chinese passengers. Nuff said

6. Copilots here are not that bad and some are very close friends of mine. For the most part they fly ok. However, they cannot fly a visual to save their life. They have no concept that flying is an art not a science. They way they do things will **** you off. Talk about finger banging the FMC, well these automatons cannot put in a HDG, ALT, SQWUAK CODE, OR FREQ without typing it into the FMC first. It drives me NUTS.

7. Pilots in China fly SLOW AS HELL. Almost in reverse. They have no idea what the hold short line is. Just hang out at 36R in Beijing and look left and right. You will see that they are always holding short of the CAT 2 line. They are too afraid to come to the actual hold short line.Its ridiculous especially when your taxing past the and that A330 tail is sticking out cause the moron won’t pull all the way up!

8. How many times i have been blinded by taxi lights or ldg lights because they refuse to turn them off even when they are facing right at you. IDIOTS!

SOME OTHER KEY POINTS

1. This place will make you crazy. If your already crazy it will make you insane.
2. Woman is the only good thing here and money
3. You will change after spending a few years here. You will grow to HATE flying. You will be applying for a job at Walmart in no time
4. Even writing this I’m getting ****ed off. These people are the most ANNOYING on earth.
5. There is a reason they copy, they learn by rote memorization, they are the slowest humans on this planet.
6. Lets configure to Flaps 1 at 20 miles away Captain because i don’t know how to fly 210 or 180 to the marker!
7. Without and FMC they would die
8. Their idea of aerobatics is a 30 degree banked turn
9. Watch them drive in an underground parking lot its hilarious. Ya know if the incline that goes to outside? Chinese never will drive up the incline if there is someone waiting to pay. They will ALWAYS wait at the bottom. They do not have the skill to make the payment to the attendant while holding the E brake or normal break.
10. Again Chinese drivers are the worst. Leading cause of accidents is chinese.

Like, +1, Favourite and all that x2!

Very well said. Agree with everything except for the women part - Asians have never done it for me, I prefer Scandinavian women, which is why I married one and moved to Denmark. But other than that totally spot on for me. I am doing a 4 week on/4 week off and the best part of my life is the 4 weeks off at home in Europe. I despise flying in China and in a year and a half I am starting to really dislike aviation altogether. The delays, incompetence and paranoia of the Chinese pilots (and management) really grates on me. For now the money and time off still outweigh the headaches, but the scale is getting pretty close to even and I can see within six months me being ready to jump ship to some place else in the world.

AZFlyer
08-14-2015, 11:49 AM
Curious, if anyone cares to share, how does flying as an expat in Japan compare to flying in China or Korea?

I've been to Japan a few times as a tourist and was always pleased with the general cleanliness, order, and politeness of the country and people. How is the Japanese cockpit/airline culture in comparison to the Chinese?

airspeed1974
08-14-2015, 09:32 PM
Curious, if anyone cares to share, how does flying as an expat in Japan compare to flying in China or Korea? I've been to Japan a few times as a tourist and was always pleased with the general cleanliness, order, and politeness of the country and people. How is the Japanese cockpit/airline culture in comparison to the Chinese?

I spent a year working in Japan. I hated it. Living part was good, working for a Japanese company was not. They have the biggest double standards, think with horse blinders on, and have procedures that will drive you crazy. Just look at how long the training takes!!!!

China- contract is "flexible" can be good or bad. Money is a lot more than Japan. The applications are 1000 percent less complicated than Japan. In my opinion lifestyle for fun much better than Japan

Japan- extremely rigid with absolutely zero thinking outside the box. Very racist and cold.

As much as after 5 years in China I can't wait to be finished I wouldn't have last 3 in Japan. I have never felt unwelcome in China but I absolutely did in Japan.

I would take China way over Japan anytime.

CloudSpirit
08-15-2015, 04:44 AM
First let me say for those back home if you have a job at a Legacy DO NOT LEAVE to come here. Unless you owe money to the mob i couldn’t see any reason at all to come to China when your quality of life will be drastically changed. However if your on a leave then yes it might make sense. Do NOT look at just the salary because behind those numbers is a lot of hard work, patience, and sacrifice...

ASpd, thank you for taking the generous amount of time and effort to post your detailed thoughts and opinions. They are very welcome, the more so because of the breadth of your experience. While our small group at FUD central consists of fairly diverse backgrounds, our combined effort does not approach the number of countries you have flown in! And it is really great to get some intel from SZ; none of us were from there (though we did have several stories contributed from outside TJ).

Respectfully, I'd like to take the liberty of adding to one of your comments for the sake of our audence:
The best part of actually flying in China is flying OUTSIDE of china. Flying domestic is the 7th level of HELL.What I'd like to do is initiate a discussion of something I am confident you will have great insight on; namely, the decision making process.

What a lot of expats get smacked with, in the face, with a tire, is the realization early on (after the interview pink cloud has dissipated) that QAR data (FOQA) is used directly against the pilot. The problem with the concept of flying outside of china is that you are still encumbered with the fact that the QAR is busily recording every action (or non-action) you take on deck. Banking the aircraft over 30-deg for more than 2 seconds is just as valid on approach into SEA as it is for PEK and you will be doing a carpet dance to explain yourself, depending on the severity of the flight department (I heard SZ was a little more laid back than Hainan group).Turbulence over Korea? {F!} you captain, explain yourself.
Lightning strike over Vietnam? {F!} you captain, explain yourself.

It's madness, and what's more, (the insidious part) is that it WILL begin to colour your experience, particularly if you are a fairly new captain with only a thousand hours or so under your belt. Even then, the more experienced guys who had time in the training department back home complained to me how they felt their standards were sliding; this coming on one occasion at the pub over adult beverages from a very good colleague who had instructor time and over 10k hours, most of which was on type in the left seat.

I've been researching the field of study that looks closely at decision making; there are some decent gateway articles on the subject at Wiki:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recognition_primed_decision


Recognition-primed decision (RPD) is a model of how people make quick, effective decisions (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decision_making) when faced with complex situations. In this model, the decision maker is assumed to generate a possible course of action, compare it to the constraints imposed by the situation, and select the first course of action that is not rejected.The PROBLEM here is that you start thinking in terms of what action will/won't bring punishment to you after you land and THIS is exceedingly dangerous in my mind; it is the crux of the issue and it is what ultimately led several of us to bid the Chinese adieu and look for jobs elsewhere.

Indeed, you are faced with extreme lifestyle challenges that haunt your every hour outside work. But when your are confronted with the problem that your every decision will be taken apart by the same artless people you describe as the FOs who can't land to save their lives... It becomes untenable and as you say, a WHEN not an IF you leave.

LIVE IN THE LARGEST CITY IN THE WORLD! (OR COMMUTE - YOUR CHOICE)

Earn (net amount received by pilot) up to $20,900 USD per month. (Over $250,000 USD per year!)

Work options include:

3 weeks ON, 1 week OFF plus 15 days annual leave
6 weeks ON, 3 weeks OFF
21 days ON, 10 days OFF plus 20 days annual leave
15 days ON, 15 days OFF

Requires: 500 hours PIC in type, 4,000 hours total time, age under 55 years old and current on the A320 within the preceding 12 months.

Contract term: 3 years (renewable).Don't be fooled.

C.S.

jpncrjdriver
08-15-2015, 06:51 AM
Curious, if anyone cares to share, how does flying as an expat in Japan compare to flying in China or Korea?

I've been to Japan a few times as a tourist and was always pleased with the general cleanliness, order, and politeness of the country and people. How is the Japanese cockpit/airline culture in comparison to the Chinese?

Hey AZFlyer

I have been in Japan for over 6 years... Have found it to be a very good experience... The Training is long and the Standards very high but training and checking fair... They do require you conform to the Company Standard as they are paying you to do such...

Our Company Flight Ops Management is OUTSTANDING!!! The VP of FLT OPS is the best Boss I have worked for in 30 years as a Pro Pilot... Support Staff are also very good... The other crewmembers welcome the expats because without them they could not staff the aircraft and thus any growth would end...

Japan is a Wonderful place to live... The Country is clean and orderly... The people polite and kind... You can find anything you would like for a price...

The only down side is the pay with the JPY down, the salary is on the low side compared to the current market... However if you want to fly well maintained aircraft in an excellent ATC system with a fair pay and pleasant work environment consider Japan...

Best of luck to ALL...

Kam-pie Jpcrjdriver

AZFlyer
08-15-2015, 01:52 PM
I spent a year working in Japan. I hated it. Living part was good, working for a Japanese company was not. They have the biggest double standards, think with horse blinders on, and have procedures that will drive you crazy. Just look at how long the training takes!!!!

China- contract is "flexible" can be good or bad. Money is a lot more than Japan. The applications are 1000 percent less complicated than Japan. In my opinion lifestyle for fun much better than Japan

Japan- extremely rigid with absolutely zero thinking outside the box. Very racist and cold.

As much as after 5 years in China I can't wait to be finished I wouldn't have last 3 in Japan. I have never felt unwelcome in China but I absolutely did in Japan.

I would take China way over Japan anytime.
Interesting thoughts, especially considering the experience that jpncrjdriver describes. Having just finished reading Cloud Spirits book, it's hard for me to imagine some of those circumstances actually being *better* in China than in Japan! But, I'm sure the company and the individual can create significant differences in the totality of the experience.

Hey AZFlyer

I have been in Japan for over 6 years... Have found it to be a very good experience... The Training is long and the Standards very high but training and checking fair... They do require you conform to the Company Standard as they are paying you to do such...

Our Company Flight Ops Management is OUTSTANDING!!! The VP of FLT OPS is the best Boss I have worked for in 30 years as a Pro Pilot... Support Staff are also very good... The other crewmembers welcome the expats because without them they could not staff the aircraft and thus any growth would end...

Japan is a Wonderful place to live... The Country is clean and orderly... The people polite and kind... You can find anything you would like for a price...

The only down side is the pay with the JPY down, the salary is on the low side compared to the current market... However if you want to fly well maintained aircraft in an excellent ATC system with a fair pay and pleasant work environment consider Japan...

Best of luck to ALL...

Kam-pie Jpcrjdriver

Thanks for your reply, as well. Not trying to hijack the thread at all, but I'm glad to hear about Japan as well. I have no desire to work in China, but I do quite in enjoy Japan, as a tourist at least.

What has been your overall impression of the airmanship/ADM skills of the typical Japanese pilot? All automatons with no room for creativity like some of the other Asian countries?

p.s. Cloud Spirit, greatly enjoyed reading your book. Looking forward to reading another volume when it comes out!

Typhoonpilot
08-15-2015, 04:43 PM
CS:


Take this as constructive criticism meant in a friendly manner. I could not get more than 50 pages into your book before I had to put it down. I understand the message that you are trying to convey and I tend to agree with it. I speak Mandarin Chinese and have strong ties to the region, but I will not work for a Chinese carrier for many of the reasons you highlight. That said a lot of the impression I am getting from the book is that those of you who wrote it had never been outside of your home country before and are intolerant of other cultures.

When I first went overseas to work for an Asian airline an older local check airman said to us, "just don't say anything for 6 months. Wait and see why we do what we do before you make any suggestions". That was really good advice to be honest. They did a lot of things that were outside of what we were used to in the USA, but it worked for them. Slowly over three years our group of Americans showed the locals alternative methods that were more the world norm and safer. They slowly started adopting those methods, especially the younger F.O.s. Change takes time and patience in other words.

Your group comes across more like a certain Delta pilot fiasco at Korean. This pilot did not understand different cultures and throw in a bit of Delta arrogance and it just went downhill from there:

The Delta Captain* affair (http://www.pprune.org/south-asia-far-east/326213-korean-kal-screwing-over-ex-pats.html)


another thread with discussion here (http://www.pprune.org/south-asia-far-east/325083-beware-expats-korean-air-777-casa-busts.html)

While Korean did have a bad reputation at that point in time, anybody who has experience in Asia can see why this particular pilot was let go. You can't just go in to a foreign airline and expect they will be doing things the "American way" and complain when they don't. It takes a little bit of adaptation to fit in. Some people have a hard time with that and in some cases never can fit in.

Years later my brother was teaching sim on a contract at the same airline I worked for in the Middle East. I was over at his hotel suite visiting when his wife walked in all flustered. She'd just had a run in with a new instructor from my brother's group. She started telling us what happened when something she said triggered me to ask, "his name isn't Delta Captain, is it?" To which she replied, "yes, how did you know?" Delta Captain never has fit in anywhere after leaving Delta. He is the proverbial "ugly American", he even angers other Americans!!

So what's the moral of the story? Realistically it's that you don't seem to show any effort to adapt to the cultural differences and a lot of the initial stories seem to be full of vile and hatred of those differences. You probably lose a lot of readers with the number of swear words and put downs in regards to the Chinese as well.

While that may not be your true feeling and intent, that is how it comes across to the reader.



Typhoonpilot



* There are plenty of former Delta pilots who have managed to adapt to working overseas and are doing quite well. Just did not want to use the individuals real name.

the turtle
08-16-2015, 01:48 AM
Agree, TP

(i couldn't get past 15 pages.......)

Probe
08-16-2015, 04:00 PM
I have ADD, I couldn't even finish reading the post. I didn't even glance at the book.

There are many jokes about coming to Asia for the first time. The best is, in Asia, you cannot ask "why".

Having spent quite a while here, I have learned that there is a standard answer to "why" for different countries.

In China, or any country who derived most of their culture from China, the answer is "because nobody cares".

In Japan, the answer is "because everybody cares too much, about every detail".

Living and working and both places, I realized they are the way they are because that is all they know, and to them it is normal. To tell them they need to be different, is insulting to them, as it would be to us.

Now, when I go back to my american "home", I see other people doing different silly things. And I feel the same. That is all they know.

There are a few dumb things about the way Chinese handle aviation. There are other things, where the Chinese can teach the world.

The FAA and the american system does some things spectacularly well. We also do some things psychotically stupid. FAR 117 comes immediately to mind.

It is not more stupid in China or Japan. It is just different stupid. We are just as stupid in our own special way. But, that is all we know, and to us, it is normal.

airspeed1974
08-16-2015, 04:28 PM
I have ADD, I couldn't even finish reading the post. I didn't even glance at the book. There are many jokes about coming to Asia for the first time. The best is, in Asia, you cannot ask "why". Having spent quite a while here, I have learned that there is a standard answer to "why" for different countries. In China, or any country who derived most of their culture from China, the answer is "because nobody cares". In Japan, the answer is "because everybody cares too much, about every detail". Living and working and both places, I realized they are the way they are because that is all they know, and to them it is normal. To tell them they need to be different, is insulting to them, as it would be to us. Now, when I go back to my american "home", I see other people doing different silly things. And I feel the same. That is all they know. There are a few dumb things about the way Chinese handle aviation. There are other things, where the Chinese can teach the world. The FAA and the american system does some things spectacularly well. We also do some things psychotically stupid. FAR 117 comes immediately to mind. It is not more stupid in China or Japan. It is just different stupid. We are just as stupid in our own special way. But, that is all we know, and to us, it is normal.

There is absolutely NOTHING that China can teach the world about aviation. You cannot even begin to compare China that way. And the CAAC regs are mostly just a copy of the FAA ones. I still cannot understand for the life of me why you would leave UAL to come to China???

airspeed1974
08-16-2015, 04:44 PM
CS: Take this as constructive criticism meant in a friendly manner. I could not get more than 50 pages into your book before I had to put it down. I understand the message that you are trying to convey and I tend to agree with it. I speak Mandarin Chinese and have strong ties to the region, but I will not work for a Chinese carrier for many of the reasons you highlight. That said a lot of the impression I am getting from the book is that those of you who wrote it had never been outside of your home country before and are intolerant of other cultures. When I first went overseas to work for an Asian airline an older local check airman said to us, "just don't say anything for 6 months. Wait and see why we do what we do before you make any suggestions". That was really good advice to be honest. They did a lot of things that were outside of what we were used to in the USA, but it worked for them. Slowly over three years our group of Americans showed the locals alternative methods that were more the world norm and safer. They slowly started adopting those methods, especially the younger F.O.s. Change takes time and patience in other words. Your group comes across more like a certain Delta pilot fiasco at Korean. This pilot did not understand different cultures and throw in a bit of Delta arrogance and it just went downhill from there: The Delta Captain* affair (http://www.pprune.org/south-asia-far-east/326213-korean-kal-screwing-over-ex-pats.html) another thread with discussion here (http://www.pprune.org/south-asia-far-east/325083-beware-expats-korean-air-777-casa-busts.html) While Korean did have a bad reputation at that point in time, anybody who has experience in Asia can see why this particular pilot was let go. You can't just go in to a foreign airline and expect they will be doing things the "American way" and complain when they don't. It takes a little bit of adaptation to fit in. Some people have a hard time with that and in some cases never can fit in. Years later my brother was teaching sim on a contract at the same airline I worked for in the Middle East. I was over at his hotel suite visiting when his wife walked in all flustered. She'd just had a run in with a new instructor from my brother's group. She started telling us what happened when something she said triggered me to ask, "his name isn't Delta Captain, is it?" To which she replied, "yes, how did you know?" Delta Captain never has fit in anywhere after leaving Delta. He is the proverbial "ugly American", he even angers other Americans!! So what's the moral of the story? Realistically it's that you don't seem to show any effort to adapt to the cultural differences and a lot of the initial stories seem to be full of vile and hatred of those differences. You probably lose a lot of readers with the number of swear words and put downs in regards to the Chinese as well. While that may not be your true feeling and intent, that is how it comes across to the reader. Typhoonpilot * There are plenty of former Delta pilots who have managed to adapt to working overseas and are doing quite well. Just did not want to use the individuals real name.

TP, I always value your info here as well as on PPW. I too have ties here as I married one.But I can totally understand why the book is so negative. After many years here you grow totally sick of the total retardation of these clowns. Do you know that 2 days ago a mainland couple allowed their kid to take a dump in the aisle right next to the toilet!!!! Disgusting! These people deserve the reputation they have. All one has to do is take a trip to Thailand and ask the locals how hey feel about Chinese tourists. Now just imagine working with them daily!

airspeed1974
08-16-2015, 04:50 PM
Interesting thoughts, especially considering the experience that jpncrjdriver describes. Having just finished reading Cloud Spirits book, it's hard for me to imagine some of those circumstances actually being *better* in China than in Japan! But, I'm sure the company and the individual can create significant differences in the totality of the experience. Thanks for your reply, as well. Not trying to hijack the thread at all, but I'm glad to hear about Japan as well. I have no desire to work in China, but I do quite in enjoy Japan, as a tourist at least. What has been your overall impression of the airmanship/ADM skills of the typical Japanese pilot? All automatons with no room for creativity like some of the other Asian countries? p.s. Cloud Spirit, greatly enjoyed reading your book. Looking forward to reading another volume when it comes out!

Japanese are in some ways more robotic then Chinese. The major difference we saw as a group was that the Japanese want you to do things their way. For example I like to have the range scale set on my MFD however I please. Sometimes long someone's short. In Japan they would go insane if you had it set out much farther then the next waypoint! In China they could care less. In Japan if you didn't look left and right after setting the parking brake, look outside and scan for traffic at FL350 when making a turn, touch the landing lights the wrong way, not sit in your seat the right way, not make a Briefing with the crew that was more detailed then a flying a SAM suppression mission into Baghdad, hold the thrust lever the wrong way, call it gear instead of landing gear, I could go on and on and on. In China they don't give a crap.

As for pilot skill what I saw in Japan was laughable.

airspeed1974
08-16-2015, 04:56 PM
ASpd, thank you for taking the generous amount of time and effort to post your detailed thoughts and opinions. They are very welcome, the more so because of the breadth of your experience. While our small group at FUD central consists of fairly diverse backgrounds, our combined effort does not approach the number of countries you have flown in! And it is really great to get some intel from SZ; none of us were from there (though we did have several stories contributed from outside TJ). Respectfully, I'd like to take the liberty of adding to one of your comments for the sake of our audence: What I'd like to do is initiate a discussion of something I am confident you will have great insight on; namely, the decision making process. What a lot of expats get smacked with, in the face, with a tire, is the realization early on (after the interview pink cloud has dissipated) that QAR data (FOQA) is used directly against the pilot. The problem with the concept of flying outside of china is that you are still encumbered with the fact that the QAR is busily recording every action (or non-action) you take on deck. Banking the aircraft over 30-deg for more than 2 seconds is just as valid on approach into SEA as it is for PEK and you will be doing a carpet dance to explain yourself, depending on the severity of the flight department (I heard SZ was a little more laid back than Hainan group).Turbulence over Korea? {F!} you captain, explain yourself. Lightning strike over Vietnam? {F!} you captain, explain yourself. It's madness, and what's more, (the insidious part) is that it WILL begin to colour your experience, particularly if you are a fairly new captain with only a thousand hours or so under your belt. Even then, the more experienced guys who had time in the training department back home complained to me how they felt their standards were sliding; this coming on one occasion at the pub over adult beverages from a very good colleague who had instructor time and over 10k hours, most of which was on type in the left seat. I've been researching the field of study that looks closely at decision making; there are some decent gateway articles on the subject at Wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recognition_primed_decision The PROBLEM here is that you start thinking in terms of what action will/won't bring punishment to you after you land and THIS is exceedingly dangerous in my mind; it is the crux of the issue and it is what ultimately led several of us to bid the Chinese adieu and look for jobs elsewhere. Indeed, you are faced with extreme lifestyle challenges that haunt your every hour outside work. But when your are confronted with the problem that your every decision will be taken apart by the same artless people you describe as the FOs who can't land to save their lives... It becomes untenable and as you say, a WHEN not an IF you leave. Don't be fooled. C.S.

Your right about what you heard. SZA really don't care about QAR. Although a lot of FO do, I always fly the plane to its limits not to the QAR ones.

Years ago some of us were called in for "hard" landings. But they keep changing that limit and now I think it's like 1.9VGTD.

But I have not heard anyone get called in a long time. However, we did have a guy get fired last year for riding a gas powered scooter.

You see in Shenzhen they are illegal (ridiculous) and one thing I hate about this place is the irony. The irony that millions of these F tards can drive electric scooters and create tons of accidents but The laowai cannot drive gas ones.

He got put in jail for 5 days and even after being here for 8 years the company fired him. They tried to make up some BS excuse that it was due to poor flight skill but the truth is that a local Chinese Captain got sacked for drunk driving so now it was time to make example of the round eye.

airspeed1974
08-16-2015, 04:58 PM
This happened on our company flight the other day. Disgusting

http://m.life.com.tw/?app=view&no=312422

Probe
08-16-2015, 07:12 PM
There is absolutely NOTHING that China can teach the world about aviation. You cannot even begin to compare China that way. And the CAAC regs are mostly just a copy of the FAA ones. I still cannot understand for the life of me why you would leave UAL to come to China???

Well Airspeed, since I have flown for 2 national flag carriers and the military, and you haven't, I would suspect my opinion might, have a little bit of validity. Since you are on American and Delta boards discussing getting hired, you look at a US legacy job as a panacea.

There are lots of happy pilots in China, and other places. They are paying you, so you do it their way. Period. It is part of being a professional.

No expat flying in China is doing it against their will. They are all volunteers, including you. If you don't like it, you can leave.

I won't rant about UAL, there are UAL boards to do that. But after flying at both UAL and a Chinese carrier, I much prefer the Chinese one, even if the money were the same.

The biggest negative in China is it is probably the least secure job in the world. That is one of the reasons it pays so much.

Good luck getting your "dream" job.

airspeed1974
08-16-2015, 07:20 PM
Well Airspeed, since I have flown for 2 national flag carriers and the military, and you haven't, I would suspect my opinion might, have a little bit of validity. Since you are on American and Delta boards discussing getting hired, you look at a US legacy job as a panacea. There are lots of happy pilots in China, and other places. They are paying you, so you do it their way. Period. It is part of being a professional. No expat flying in China is doing it against their will. They are all volunteers, including you. If you don't like it, you can leave. I won't rant about UAL, there are UAL boards to do that. But after flying at both UAL and a Chinese carrier, I much prefer the Chinese one, even if the money were the same. The biggest negative in China is it is probably the least secure job in the world. That is one of the reasons it pays so much. Good luck getting your "dream" job.

I never said your opinion was invalid did it? And while I didn't fly for a national airline I did fly fighters. So please stop talking about me as if you know me

airspeed1974
08-16-2015, 07:29 PM
CS: Take this as constructive criticism meant in a friendly manner. I could not get more than 50 pages into your book before I had to put it down. I understand the message that you are trying to convey and I tend to agree with it. I speak Mandarin Chinese and have strong ties to the region, but I will not work for a Chinese carrier for many of the reasons you highlight. That said a lot of the impression I am getting from the book is that those of you who wrote it had never been outside of your home country before and are intolerant of other cultures. When I first went overseas to work for an Asian airline an older local check airman said to us, "just don't say anything for 6 months. Wait and see why we do what we do before you make any suggestions". That was really good advice to be honest. They did a lot of things that were outside of what we were used to in the USA, but it worked for them. Slowly over three years our group of Americans showed the locals alternative methods that were more the world norm and safer. They slowly started adopting those methods, especially the younger F.O.s. Change takes time and patience in other words. Your group comes across more like a certain Delta pilot fiasco at Korean. This pilot did not understand different cultures and throw in a bit of Delta arrogance and it just went downhill from there: The Delta Captain* affair (http://www.pprune.org/south-asia-far-east/326213-korean-kal-screwing-over-ex-pats.html) another thread with discussion here (http://www.pprune.org/south-asia-far-east/325083-beware-expats-korean-air-777-casa-busts.html) While Korean did have a bad reputation at that point in time, anybody who has experience in Asia can see why this particular pilot was let go. You can't just go in to a foreign airline and expect they will be doing things the "American way" and complain when they don't. It takes a little bit of adaptation to fit in. Some people have a hard time with that and in some cases never can fit in. Years later my brother was teaching sim on a contract at the same airline I worked for in the Middle East. I was over at his hotel suite visiting when his wife walked in all flustered. She'd just had a run in with a new instructor from my brother's group. She started telling us what happened when something she said triggered me to ask, "his name isn't Delta Captain, is it?" To which she replied, "yes, how did you know?" Delta Captain never has fit in anywhere after leaving Delta. He is the proverbial "ugly American", he even angers other Americans!! So what's the moral of the story? Realistically it's that you don't seem to show any effort to adapt to the cultural differences and a lot of the initial stories seem to be full of vile and hatred of those differences. You probably lose a lot of readers with the number of swear words and put downs in regards to the Chinese as well. While that may not be your true feeling and intent, that is how it comes across to the reader. Typhoonpilot * There are plenty of former Delta pilots who have managed to adapt to working overseas and are doing quite well. Just did not want to use the individuals real name.

TP, I just finished reading the thread from PPrune that you linked. This sounds EXACTLY like my experience in Japan to a tee! I so played the Mr. Humble pie attitude, studied until I could wear that plane and did every single thing they did. I followed the constant ridiculous call outs, etc.

We have I would gather to say around 10 Koreans at SZA. They ALL say the same thing about working for an airline in Korea. It sucks and had a military mafia running it. Now having Koreans leave clean Korea to come to dirty China has got to tell us something!

Probe
08-16-2015, 09:04 PM
I never said your opinion was invalid did it? And while I didn't fly for a national airline I did fly fighters. So please stop talking about me as if you know me

Were you a test pilot and astronaut as well?

airspeed1974
08-16-2015, 10:44 PM
Were you a test pilot and astronaut as well?

No, I was neither one (:

airspeed1974
08-16-2015, 10:52 PM
Well Airspeed, since I have flown for 2 national flag carriers and the military, and you haven't, I would suspect my opinion might, have a little bit of validity. Since you are on American and Delta boards discussing getting hired, you look at a US legacy job as a panacea. There are lots of happy pilots in China, and other places. They are paying you, so you do it their way. Period. It is part of being a professional. No expat flying in China is doing it against their will. They are all volunteers, including you. If you don't like it, you can leave. I won't rant about UAL, there are UAL boards to do that. But after flying at both UAL and a Chinese carrier, I much prefer the Chinese one, even if the money were the same. The biggest negative in China is it is probably the least secure job in the world. That is one of the reasons it pays so much. Good luck getting your "dream" job.

You do realize your one of the VERY few actually I think the only person I have ever heard of that would prefer a Chinese airline over UAL.

Then again I am the only civilian to ever go out and fly a Mach 2 single seat combat fighter with absolutely zero training, have multiple system failures on my first flight, and break Mach 1 all at the same time.

So I guess we are not the norm are we?

Having said that I now refer to your thing about doing it their way. The Chinese way (slow as hell, way too conservative) the Japanese way (over complicated and way too anal) and then you need to find a balance where you satisfy safety, their way and the correct way.....

Yea I am a volunteer. So are the soldiers in combat but that doesn't stop them from writing about the atrocities of war now does it.....

thepesimist
08-17-2015, 08:23 AM
CS after reading the first 50 pages in your book the uncleanliness of china reminds me of new york city. I live in one of the richest zip code in the world you can look it up, (10011) yet their are rats and mice everywhere, garbage all over the street, dilapidated old buildings that need to be tear down, and dont forget all the cockroaches everywhere. We were just like the Chinese in the fact that we put up with pollution to make our country rich and great. I just want to say we are not so different.

Probe
08-17-2015, 05:13 PM
If you want to see a first world airport, vs a 3rd world one, I would suggest this. Unfortunately where I currently fly I can't be any help on this. Maybe I will search on Youtube.

Sitting in the cockpit, in ORD, La Garbage, or Heathrow, pull out your smartphone and record 30 seconds of video. That video will show hundreds of people, ground support equipment, safety equipment. It is seemingly strewn everywhere. Some moving randomly, some probably hasn't moved in 8 years. They are like garbage dumps.
The Hold Short line has a lineup of 15 jets, all burning gas.

Go to the vast majority of Chinese airports. There are aircraft on the ramp. If the aircraft is going somewhere soon, there are 3 or 4 baggage handlers loading bags, and then they completely disappear. Including ALL of their equipment. The fueler fuels, and completely disappears. There is probably only 1 tug in use (supertug), for the whole airport. 2 if there are 2 runways.
The ramp is quiet, sedate, and nearly empty. It is almost like the airport is closed.
One tug can push back enough aircraft fast enough to feed one runway. If you work for a Chinese airline, once you push back, you will not come to a stop until you lineup on the runway, 75% of the time.

All of this is done with the smallest number of ground staff you have ever seen at an airport.

There are a very, very few exceptions to this. PEK and PVD you will have a line of aircraft at the hold short, usually foreign as they screw all the foreign carriers. CAN can also have a few aircraft waiting, but usually only 2 or 3. Did I mention they screw ALL foreign carriers by making them wait till all Chinese aircraft takeoff first?

The airline I worked at had 35 aircraft at the time. They had just enough pilots and FA's to staff the planes. They had 3 schedulers for the crews. All the crew. We had 4 dispatchers. I don't know if we had more than 100-150 total employees for the rest of the airline. I don't know if we had a total of more than 30 total employees per aircraft. The vast majority of those are crew. UAL currently has about 115 employees per aircraft. I believe Southwest used to have about 40.

It was, by far, the leanest, smoothest, most reliable operation I have ever been involved with in aviation. I have never seen anything like it, before, or since. UAL, and US airports are 3rd world by comparison.

And, the medicals are insane. The air is dirty. You WILL see a woman holding her baby in her outstretched arms and watch him relieve himself. At the bottom of the air stairs. It definitely isn't perfect.

But they run an aviation system to the highest level I have ever seen, at least in some ways.

RedeyeAV8r
08-17-2015, 05:19 PM
CS after reading the first 50 pages in your book the uncleanliness of china reminds me of new york city. I live in one of the richest zip code in the world you can look it up, (10011) yet their are rats and mice everywhere, garbage all over the street, dilapidated old buildings that need to be tear down, and dont forget all the cockroaches everywhere. We were just like the Chinese in the fact that we put up with pollution to make our country rich and great. I just want to say we are not so different.

With the exception that We don't eat the Rats, Mice and Cockroaches :D

CloudSpirit
08-17-2015, 05:32 PM
Hang on a minute fellas, please let's keep the ad-hominem to a minimum... If you have a point to make, I really want to read it. Appeals to the degree of astronautism of this member or that post doesn't really go very far.

Leave it to the graceful (LOL) pages of FUD to take care of any healthy doses of rudeness :D

(i couldn't get past 15 pages.......); I could not get more than 50 pages into your book... {etc.}
That's OK. In the introduction of FUD we recognized this and tried to speak to the effect that the book was not for everyone. Besides pointing out the likelihood of offending certain folks' sensibilities, I tried to be vocal that we were not undertaking the endeavor of "...correlating wombat populations with the abundance of fruit trees in Quindao." There was a specific audience we had in mind, and that specific audience as you presciently noticed (Typhoon) is the kind of sometimes fence-riding, newbie contract pilot with 500-1000 fresh hours under his belt who is dazzled by the money offers and doesn't know what he is getting himself into. To be totally honest, I personally was that guy and I know of plenty of others who shared that experience. There is a need being addressed here, and we chose to go about it a certain way.

Despite the fact that I consider myself exceptionally open minded (believe it or not) with friends of a diverse spectrum of demographics, when one DOES get into that system over there in China and get hooked into the I.V. of crack-money, one tends to lose sight of what really matters and the conflict between I can make just one more pay-period and what the hell am I doing here begins to unravel one's coping skills and tolerance. I experienced a lot of anger personally, and I lent an ear to compadres over a beer at the pub who had just as much anger and shock at what they had gotten themselves into. IF we can do anything to address this disconnect, our mission is accomplished. We've received numerous messages of thanks and appreciation so far; I think our mission objective has been met and will persist as a certain legacy for future waves of prospective pilot merc newbies.

Living and working and both places, I realized they are the way they are because that is all they know, and to them it is normal. To tell them they need to be different, is insulting to them, as it would be to us.

My thought on this, shared by many at FUD central is that America and Britain designed, developed and innovated the modren jet transport airliner (I've heard it said that the TSB of Canada has also contributed significantly, especially in the case of CFiT--there are other contributors in the Western sphere of influence). I also ran into exceptionally experienced instructors at FSI who made the same remarks; this thinking is not unique to a single, foaming at the mouth, ignorantly biased individual. To this end, the Boeing and Airbus aeroliners, emulated by a "new" wave of manufacturers like Embraer and Canadair, have been designed with a flight deck culture in mind that transcends and leaves behind local culture. Our "side" invented and developed this stuff, I'd say we have a right to declare what is the standard and what is not; I don't go for that whole "we should be ashamed because we have been innovators and world leaders" bull-ogna and give up the farm. No. I'm also not saying that America is not above critique; but, this is NOT that thread. I am sure it exists elsewhere for people to go pontificate on... I'm pontificating about other things here.

Quick question along this line of debate: I'm curious, why is it that the Chinese have been hiring so many foreign pilots anyhow? Why are they offering wages of such grandiose proportions?


Now, in some ways you are right: to point out that there are droves of (slaves) people walking through traffic cleaning up the roads in Tianjin has nothing to do with flight deck culture is 100% correct. To say that harvesting organs has nothing to do with culture on deck is... 90% correct. To say that kids are taking a dump in the aisle of row 18 has nothing to do with culture on deck... well, we're starting to get some traction: the acorn does not fall far from the tree. Smoking, sleeping, talking on your phone... these are things I've seen aplenty on deck in China, and it speaks of a disconnect between leaving your local culture at the door and entering the flight deck as a disciplined individual, ready to fly.

I'm not saying problems are absent from flight decks in America; what I AM asking is whether YOU are prepared to get your wee-wee slapped time and again in a foreign theater of operations where your only recourse is, as Probe pointed out, leaving. Are you brave enough to go over there in the first place; if you can't hack it, are you brave enough to leave; can you hack it when they tell you to go?

C.S.

NEDude
08-18-2015, 05:50 AM
Hang on a minute fellas, please let's keep the ad-hominem to a minimum... If you have a point to make, I really want to read it. Appeals to the degree of astronautism of this member or that post doesn't really go very far.

Leave it to the graceful (LOL) pages of FUD to take care of any healthy doses of rudeness :D


That's OK. In the introduction of FUD we recognized this and tried to speak to the effect that the book was not for everyone. Besides pointing out the likelihood of offending certain folks' sensibilities, I tried to be vocal that we were not undertaking the endeavor of "...correlating wombat populations with the abundance of fruit trees in Quindao." There was a specific audience we had in mind, and that specific audience as you presciently noticed (Typhoon) is the kind of sometimes fence-riding, newbie contract pilot with 500-1000 fresh hours under his belt who is dazzled by the money offers and doesn't know what he is getting himself into. To be totally honest, I personally was that guy and I know of plenty of others who shared that experience. There is a need being addressed here, and we chose to go about it a certain way.

Despite the fact that I consider myself exceptionally open minded (believe it or not) with friends of a diverse spectrum of demographics, when one DOES get into that system over there in China and get hooked into the I.V. of crack-money, one tends to lose sight of what really matters and the conflict between I can make just one more pay-period and what the hell am I doing here begins to unravel one's coping skills and tolerance. I experienced a lot of anger personally, and I lent an ear to compadres over a beer at the pub who had just as much anger and shock at what they had gotten themselves into. IF we can do anything to address this disconnect, our mission is accomplished. We've received numerous messages of thanks and appreciation so far; I think our mission objective has been met and will persist as a certain legacy for future waves of prospective pilot merc newbies.



My thought on this, shared by many at FUD central is that America and Britain designed, developed and innovated the modren jet transport airliner (I've heard it said that the TSB of Canada has also contributed significantly, especially in the case of CFiT--there are other contributors in the Western sphere of influence). I also ran into exceptionally experienced instructors at FSI who made the same remarks; this thinking is not unique to a single, foaming at the mouth, ignorantly biased individual. To this end, the Boeing and Airbus aeroliners, emulated by a "new" wave of manufacturers like Embraer and Canadair, have been designed with a flight deck culture in mind that transcends and leaves behind local culture. Our "side" invented and developed this stuff, I'd say we have a right to declare what is the standard and what is not; I don't go for that whole "we should be ashamed because we have been innovators and world leaders" bull-ogna and give up the farm. No. I'm also not saying that America is not above critique; but, this is NOT that thread. I am sure it exists elsewhere for people to go pontificate on... I'm pontificating about other things here.

Quick question along this line of debate: I'm curious, why is it that the Chinese have been hiring so many foreign pilots anyhow? Why are they offering wages of such grandiose proportions?


Now, in some ways you are right: to point out that there are droves of (slaves) people walking through traffic cleaning up the roads in Tianjin has nothing to do with flight deck culture is 100% correct. To say that harvesting organs has nothing to do with culture on deck is... 90% correct. To say that kids are taking a dump in the aisle of row 18 has nothing to do with culture on deck... well, we're starting to get some traction: the acorn does not fall far from the tree. Smoking, sleeping, talking on your phone... these are things I've seen aplenty on deck in China, and it speaks of a disconnect between leaving your local culture at the door and entering the flight deck as a disciplined individual, ready to fly.

I'm not saying problems are absent from flight decks in America; what I AM asking is whether YOU are prepared to get your wee-wee slapped time and again in a foreign theater of operations where your only recourse is, as Probe pointed out, leaving. Are you brave enough to go over there in the first place; if you can't hack it, are you brave enough to leave; can you hack it when they tell you to go?

C.S.

I for one am grateful to read your posts. I am finding myself in the same boat of wondering how many more pay cycles I can make it through before I go crazy.

The airline I work for in China is the most unprofessional and unsafe outfit I have ever worked for, and that includes the crappy little Beech 1900 operator I spent the first five years of my career with. In the past year and a half the airline has implemented an extremely harsh punishment system for even minor infractions. A friend of mine was two knots over the limit for being stable at 1000' in visual conditions (in other words very hard to see on speed tape), and he was considered stable by 960 feet, yet the company fined him a half a month of pay and suspended him without pay for another two weeks. Seven months later the company decided to ground him until he took a command leadership test because of the unstable approach. Of course they forgot to tell him and it took his inquiring why he was not on the schedule before they would tell him. Then it took them two more weeks of being grounded before they could get him in for his test, so he lost nearly another three full weeks of pay from that. All told his being unstable by 2 knots for 40 feet cost him over $20,000.

Recently we had a couple of pilots miss some radio calls. I am going to assume they are Chinese nationals who forgot because if they were expats they would have told everyone the names and how much they were fined, but that information was not presented. But now we all have to take radio communication course and test and the company is requiring reports on all suspected missed radio calls.

When we as expats, who come from Europe, the United States, Canada and elsewhere, ask for some data about the hows and whys of incidents, sort of like getting FOQA/ASAP data like several U.S. airlines provide, we are told the information is irrelevant for safe flight. In their mind telling us who is bad and how much they were fined is a better approach.

As much as I understand that it is their part of the world and their culture, as you mentioned, aviation has been developed by the western world. The aircraft we operate are western designed and (in most cases) built. ICAO regulations have been developed overwhelmingly by the western world. All of us expats have grown up in a western culture, learning aviation in western world and built up most of our vast experience in western aviation. Treating expats the same way you treat these young and inexperienced Chinese pilots who learn strictly by rote memorisation is counter productive and ultimately unsafe. I have already found myself at times starting to worry about whether I accidentally exceeded QAR limit (has not come close to happening yet) instead of focusing on the immediate task at hand.

Anyway, I could go on and ramble some more. But I agree with you and I am actively trying to find a way out of China now as I am pretty miserable much of the time. The problem is the pay check and time off are impossible to match anywhere else so it will be hard to wean myself and my family away from that.

Probe
08-19-2015, 12:28 AM
I for one am grateful to read your posts. I am finding myself in the same boat of wondering how many more pay cycles I can make it through before I go crazy.

The airline I work for in China is the most unprofessional and unsafe outfit I have ever worked for, and that includes the crappy little Beech 1900 operator I spent the first five years of my career with. In the past year and a half the airline has implemented an extremely harsh punishment system for even minor infractions. A friend of mine was two knots over the limit for being stable at 1000' in visual conditions (in other words very hard to see on speed tape), and he was considered stable by 960 feet, yet the company fined him a half a month of pay and suspended him without pay for another two weeks. Seven months later the company decided to ground him until he took a command leadership test because of the unstable approach. Of course they forgot to tell him and it took his inquiring why he was not on the schedule before they would tell him. Then it took them two more weeks of being grounded before they could get him in for his test, so he lost nearly another three full weeks of pay from that. All told his being unstable by 2 knots for 40 feet cost him over $20,000.

Recently we had a couple of pilots miss some radio calls. I am going to assume they are Chinese nationals who forgot because if they were expats they would have told everyone the names and how much they were fined, but that information was not presented. But now we all have to take radio communication course and test and the company is requiring reports on all suspected missed radio calls.

When we as expats, who come from Europe, the United States, Canada and elsewhere, ask for some data about the hows and whys of incidents, sort of like getting FOQA/ASAP data like several U.S. airlines provide, we are told the information is irrelevant for safe flight. In their mind telling us who is bad and how much they were fined is a better approach.

As much as I understand that it is their part of the world and their culture, as you mentioned, aviation has been developed by the western world. The aircraft we operate are western designed and (in most cases) built. ICAO regulations have been developed overwhelmingly by the western world. All of us expats have grown up in a western culture, learning aviation in western world and built up most of our vast experience in western aviation. Treating expats the same way you treat these young and inexperienced Chinese pilots who learn strictly by rote memorisation is counter productive and ultimately unsafe. I have already found myself at times starting to worry about whether I accidentally exceeded QAR limit (has not come close to happening yet) instead of focusing on the immediate task at hand.

Anyway, I could go on and ramble some more. But I agree with you and I am actively trying to find a way out of China now as I am pretty miserable much of the time. The problem is the pay check and time off are impossible to match anywhere else so it will be hard to wean myself and my family away from that.

Sounds like it is time to leave. I needed a break as well. I left 3 years ago. I am ready to give it another go, however.

The QAR fines are part of the system. We both knew that when we signed up. I know it now, going back. I am a volunteer.

Why does it pay so much? Well, the joke in the contract world is that if it pays a lot, it is because nobody wants to work there. If it is a commuting contract, it is because nobody wants to live there.

For me, I enjoyed the job in China. Unstable? Well, go around. Or do what I do and make my personal stabilized approach criteria at 2000' instead of 1000. I went around 4 or 5 times in 2 years because the FO messed up a non precision approach, or approach control kept us too high, too long.

I might a lot of expats working at Shenzhen, Hainan, and Air China. The vast majority were happy working there. There were a few who weren't, but that applies to every job.

Unfortunately internet forums tend to be filled primarily with these last few individuals.

NEDude
08-19-2015, 01:31 AM
Sounds like it is time to leave. I needed a break as well. I left 3 years ago. I am ready to give it another go, however.

The QAR fines are part of the system. We both knew that when we signed up. I know it now, going back. I am a volunteer.

Why does it pay so much? Well, the joke in the contract world is that if it pays a lot, it is because nobody wants to work there. If it is a commuting contract, it is because nobody wants to live there.

For me, I enjoyed the job in China. Unstable? Well, go around. Or do what I do and make my personal stabilized approach criteria at 2000' instead of 1000. I went around 4 or 5 times in 2 years because the FO messed up a non precision approach, or approach control kept us too high, too long.

I might a lot of expats working at Shenzhen, Hainan, and Air China. The vast majority were happy working there. There were a few who weren't, but that applies to every job.

Unfortunately internet forums tend to be filled primarily with these last few individuals.

If it is not time to leave, it will be soon. The QAR fines are relatively new at my company, at least the amounts and the way they are assessing them. It was a formally announced change at the beginning of this year, so no, it was not what I signed up for. I think at my company the only happy expats are the guys from Mexico. Every single other guy is not happy. Many have left and the rest of us, from Europe, North America and South America, are all looking to leave or will not renew the contract. We lost 25% of our expat pilot group in three months from guys not renewing or resigning.

I do agree with you about increasing the stabilised criteria, I do the same thing, I am stable at 2,000 feet. But the punishment for even a minor violation, one that would be hard to detect without a computer, is draconian and has the opposite effect of being safe. The entire world knows this with the exception of the Chinese.

One thing to keep in mind with the Chinese is that China spent the better part of a millennium trying to isolate itself from the rest of the world, including even its own neighbours. In fact China has only really tried to reach out and become part of the global community over the past 25 years or so. That is part of the reason even their neighbours have a hard time dealing with the Chinese (I am talking on a one to one and tourist type of level, not on a government level - although that is an issue as well). China in many ways has developed over the last 500+ years in an alternate reality and now is trying to make the rest of the world adapt to its ways. I always tell people that China is really a third world country with first world window dressing.

penguin22
08-19-2015, 05:12 AM
One thing to keep in mind with the Chinese is that China spent the better part of a millennium trying to isolate itself from the rest of the world, including even its own neighbours. In fact China has only really tried to reach out and become part of the global community over the past 25 years or so. That is part of the reason even their neighbours have a hard time dealing with the Chinese (I am talking on a one to one and tourist type of level, not on a government level - although that is an issue as well). China in many ways has developed over the last 500+ years in an alternate reality and now is trying to make the rest of the world adapt to its ways. I always tell people that China is really a third world country with first world window dressing.

Excellent observation and well said.

airspeed1974
08-19-2015, 07:28 PM
So its better to sit there in BJ, SH, or HZ delayed EVERY single day for 2-6 hours? Its better to takeoff from 36R in BJ only to go into holding 10 mins after takeoff? Or how about step climb and descend 20 times for a 2 hour flight wasting fuel and constant throttle movements because of all these changes.

Or lets descend at 3000FPM 200 miles from the airport for traffic thats 100 kilometers away SAME direction. Yea, efficiency at its finest....
[/B]


Go to the vast majority of Chinese airports. There are aircraft on the ramp. If the aircraft is going somewhere soon, there are 3 or 4 baggage handlers loading bags, and then they completely disappear. Including ALL of their equipment. The fueler fuels, and completely disappears. There is probably only 1 tug in use (supertug), for the whole airport. 2 if there are 2 runways.
The ramp is quiet, sedate, and nearly empty. It is almost like the airport is closed.

OMG, quiet? Pls show me one place that is quiet in China except UNDERWATER!!!


One tug can push back enough aircraft fast enough to feed one runway. If you work for a Chinese airline, once you push back, you will not come to a stop until you lineup on the runway, 75% of the time.

Your right, you will just have 90 degree offcourse diversions, orbits, and the worst vectoring ever...


All of this is done with the smallest number of ground staff you have ever seen at an airport.

Yes who totally block the plane when your trying to come out. ALA CHINESE FIRE DRILL

It was, by far, the leanest, smoothest, most reliable operation I have ever been involved with in aviation. I have never seen anything like it, before, or since. UAL, and US airports are 3rd world by comparison.

What planet are you on man? Words like smoothest, reliable do NOT belong in CHINESE AVIATION. How about INEFFICIENCY, EXPEDITE, NEGATIVE, OFFSET, MAKE ORBIT, TIME NOT DETERMINED, FLOW CONTROL, yea thats more like the China i know.

US Airports are 3rd world? Really? Next time you are at Shenzhen on taxiway C1 for RWY 15 please tell me who had the retarded idea of putting the amber lights BEHIND the HOLD SHORT LINE....creating an easy mistake if you do not happen to see the line and EXPECT it to be where the lights are when they are actually after the line!!!!



But they run an aviation system to the highest level I have ever seen, at least in some ways.

This is the first time i have ever heard this from anyone. Ever

airspeed1974
08-19-2015, 07:34 PM
If it is not time to leave, it will be soon. The QAR fines are relatively new at my company, at least the amounts and the way they are assessing them. It was a formally announced change at the beginning of this year, so no, it was not what I signed up for. I think at my company the only happy expats are the guys from Mexico. Every single other guy is not happy. Many have left and the rest of us, from Europe, North America and South America, are all looking to leave or will not renew the contract. We lost 25% of our expat pilot group in three months from guys not renewing or resigning.

I do agree with you about increasing the stabilised criteria, I do the same thing, I am stable at 2,000 feet. But the punishment for even a minor violation, one that would be hard to detect without a computer, is draconian and has the opposite effect of being safe. The entire world knows this with the exception of the Chinese.

One thing to keep in mind with the Chinese is that China spent the better part of a millennium trying to isolate itself from the rest of the world, including even its own neighbours. In fact China has only really tried to reach out and become part of the global community over the past 25 years or so. That is part of the reason even their neighbours have a hard time dealing with the Chinese (I am talking on a one to one and tourist type of level, not on a government level - although that is an issue as well). China in many ways has developed over the last 500+ years in an alternate reality and now is trying to make the rest of the world adapt to its ways. I always tell people that China is really a third world country with first world window dressing.

Totally agree. Good points. And its not as safe as people think anymore. There was just a chinese gal who was stabbed to death in broad daylight buy a guy with a samurai sword in Sallitun, Beijing. Salitun is a famous place for nightlife.

Her and her French husband just got married, and the guy with the sword went up and asked if he was from America. He replied he was French, then the guy stabbed and killed his wife and then injured him. Word on the street is the guy was a pilot. If ya don't believe me here is the link...

https://thenanfang.com/woman-stabbed-sanlitun-man-sword-graphic/

CloudSpirit
08-19-2015, 07:59 PM
Thanks to everyone checking in and leaving their remarks and critiques on this thread.

Insight sometimes comes from unlikely places, and I've personally gained a lot of thinking material here. Time is short these days and it's tough to keep up; having said that, the conversations are fascinating to read (but I don't have time to respond with fully-fledged comments at the moment).

Everyone, fly safely and keep the blue on top!
I'll check in again in a few when there's more time :)

C.S.
Yes, of course. Who has time? Who has time? But then if we never *take* time, how can we have time?

P.S. Dear God, I hope that guy in the article above isn't a good expat friend of mine who resembles the description... I have to go do some of my own checkin' in now, folks.

airspeed1974
08-19-2015, 08:42 PM
Captain R. Not sure any other details. Hey did you know SS when he was at TJA?

NEDude
08-19-2015, 10:32 PM
So its better to sit there in BJ, SH, or HZ delayed EVERY single day for 2-6 hours? Its better to takeoff from 36R in BJ only to go into holding 10 mins after takeoff? Or how about step climb and descend 20 times for a 2 hour flight wasting fuel and constant throttle movements because of all these changes.

Or lets descend at 3000FPM 200 miles from the airport for traffic thats 100 kilometers away SAME direction. Yea, efficiency at its finest....
[/B]


Go to the vast majority of Chinese airports. There are aircraft on the ramp. If the aircraft is going somewhere soon, there are 3 or 4 baggage handlers loading bags, and then they completely disappear. Including ALL of their equipment. The fueler fuels, and completely disappears. There is probably only 1 tug in use (supertug), for the whole airport. 2 if there are 2 runways.
The ramp is quiet, sedate, and nearly empty. It is almost like the airport is closed.

OMG, quiet? Pls show me one place that is quiet in China except UNDERWATER!!!


One tug can push back enough aircraft fast enough to feed one runway. If you work for a Chinese airline, once you push back, you will not come to a stop until you lineup on the runway, 75% of the time.

Your right, you will just have 90 degree offcourse diversions, orbits, and the worst vectoring ever...


All of this is done with the smallest number of ground staff you have ever seen at an airport.

Yes who totally block the plane when your trying to come out. ALA CHINESE FIRE DRILL

It was, by far, the leanest, smoothest, most reliable operation I have ever been involved with in aviation. I have never seen anything like it, before, or since. UAL, and US airports are 3rd world by comparison.

What planet are you on man? Words like smoothest, reliable do NOT belong in CHINESE AVIATION. How about INEFFICIENCY, EXPEDITE, NEGATIVE, OFFSET, MAKE ORBIT, TIME NOT DETERMINED, FLOW CONTROL, yea thats more like the China i know.

US Airports are 3rd world? Really? Next time you are at Shenzhen on taxiway C1 for RWY 15 please tell me who had the retarded idea of putting the amber lights BEHIND the HOLD SHORT LINE....creating an easy mistake if you do not happen to see the line and EXPECT it to be where the lights are when they are actually after the line!!!!



But they run an aviation system to the highest level I have ever seen, at least in some ways.

This is the first time i have ever heard this from anyone. Ever

One tug works for a runway because most airports in China have only about 10 gates and Chinese ATC requires very wide spacing between departures. Also, go to PEK, PVG, CAN and some of the bigger airports and you will see far more pushback tugs than one per runway, and far more ground crew as well.

Probe
08-20-2015, 12:02 AM
This is the first time i have ever heard this from anyone. Ever

One tug works for a runway because most airports in China have only about 10 gates and Chinese ATC requires very wide spacing between departures. Also, go to PEK, PVG, CAN and some of the bigger airports and you will see far more pushback tugs than one per runway, and far more ground crew as well.[/QUOTE]

Trust me, got to ORD, LGA, or Heathrow. Beijing looks like the first world airport.

Probe
08-20-2015, 12:06 AM
So its better to sit there in BJ, SH, or HZ delayed EVERY single day for 2-6 hours? Its better to takeoff from 36R in BJ only to go into holding 10 mins after takeoff? Or how about step climb and descend 20 times for a 2 hour flight wasting fuel and constant throttle movements because of all these changes.

Or lets descend at 3000FPM 200 miles from the airport for traffic thats 100 kilometers away SAME direction. Yea, efficiency at its finest....
[/B]


Go to the vast majority of Chinese airports. There are aircraft on the ramp. If the aircraft is going somewhere soon, there are 3 or 4 baggage handlers loading bags, and then they completely disappear. Including ALL of their equipment. The fueler fuels, and completely disappears. There is probably only 1 tug in use (supertug), for the whole airport. 2 if there are 2 runways.
The ramp is quiet, sedate, and nearly empty. It is almost like the airport is closed.

OMG, quiet? Pls show me one place that is quiet in China except UNDERWATER!!!


One tug can push back enough aircraft fast enough to feed one runway. If you work for a Chinese airline, once you push back, you will not come to a stop until you lineup on the runway, 75% of the time.

Your right, you will just have 90 degree offcourse diversions, orbits, and the worst vectoring ever...


All of this is done with the smallest number of ground staff you have ever seen at an airport.

Yes who totally block the plane when your trying to come out. ALA CHINESE FIRE DRILL

It was, by far, the leanest, smoothest, most reliable operation I have ever been involved with in aviation. I have never seen anything like it, before, or since. UAL, and US airports are 3rd world by comparison.

What planet are you on man? Words like smoothest, reliable do NOT belong in CHINESE AVIATION. How about INEFFICIENCY, EXPEDITE, NEGATIVE, OFFSET, MAKE ORBIT, TIME NOT DETERMINED, FLOW CONTROL, yea thats more like the China i know.

US Airports are 3rd world? Really? Next time you are at Shenzhen on taxiway C1 for RWY 15 please tell me who had the retarded idea of putting the amber lights BEHIND the HOLD SHORT LINE....creating an easy mistake if you do not happen to see the line and EXPECT it to be where the lights are when they are actually after the line!!!!



But they run an aviation system to the highest level I have ever seen, at least in some ways.

This is the first time i have ever heard this from anyone. Ever

Honestly Airspeed, the more you write, the more I question the authenticity of your background.

Horrific ATC delays are common in N America and Europe. While I had more 5 - 20 minute delays in China, I had LESS 2-8 hour delays. Far less.

airspeed1974
08-20-2015, 02:54 AM
[/QUOTE]
Honestly Airspeed, the more you write, the more I question the authenticity of your background.

Horrific ATC delays are common in N America and Europe. While I had more 5 - 20 minute delays in China, I had LESS 2-8 hour delays. Far less.[/QUOTE]

My background? Go ahead. I speak the truth. Not sure what China your flying it but, FACT SHANGHAI, BEIJING, and HANGZHOU have a 33 PERCENT ON TIME RATE AND ARE THE WORLDS MOST DELAYED AIRPORTS.

There is absolutely ZERO comparison between here and the USA or anywhere else except Africa or India.

Its amazing you question my background. I have been an expat over 10 years, China for the last 5. Not once, not once in the entire time did i EVER hear another Expat say that the grass is greener here then back home except if they came from some mudhut in the barrio of Rio.

Are you sure your not a recruiter????

The Dominican
08-20-2015, 04:16 AM
Don't waist your time with trolls Probe....., if you read some of his claims you will quickly realize that he belongs on your ignore list.

airspeed1974
08-20-2015, 05:14 AM
Don't waist your time with trolls Probe....., if you read some of his claims you will quickly realize that he belongs on your ignore list.

I knew it was only a matter of time before mr legend in his own mind who couldn't fly his way out of a paper bag came to join the discussion. Aren't you supposed to be back in hello kitty land playing Mr subservient?

NEDude
08-20-2015, 07:03 AM
One tug works for a runway because most airports in China have only about 10 gates and Chinese ATC requires very wide spacing between departures. Also, go to PEK, PVG, CAN and some of the bigger airports and you will see far more pushback tugs than one per runway, and far more ground crew as well.

Trust me, got to ORD, LGA, or Heathrow. Beijing looks like the first world airport.[/QUOTE]

It certainly did not look first world a few weeks ago when I sat short of 36R for 2 hours and 3 minutes (with both engines running because the Chinese are so freaking paranoid). It did not look like a first world airport a few weeks before that when I sat at the gate, passengers on board, jetway pulled back, for 4 hours and 19 minutes because they changed our departure time due to military activity. And nothing about terminal 2 looks the least bit first world. Having been based in ORD, and having operated out of LGA frequently for a USAirways Express carrier, I would take those two a hundred times before I would take PEK.

airspeed1974
08-20-2015, 09:32 AM
Trust me, got to ORD, LGA, or Heathrow. Beijing looks like the first world airport. It certainly did not look first world a few weeks ago when I sat short of 36R for 2 hours and 3 minutes (with both engines running because the Chinese are so freaking paranoid). It did not look like a first world airport a few weeks before that when I sat at the gate, passengers on board, jetway pulled back, for 4 hours and 19 minutes because they changed our departure time due to military activity. And nothing about terminal 2 looks the least bit first world. Having been based in ORD, and having operated out of LGA frequently for a USAirways Express carrier, I would take those two a hundred times before I would take PEK.

MILITARY ACTIVITY ahhh the prelude to a 16 hour duty day. Last week lets see. SZ-PVG-SZ delayed 4 hours due to RESTRICTION, then next day SZ-HZ-SZ 6 hours due to some raindrops!!!!

The level of irony and inefficiency here is truly mind boggling. And how Probe or Domingo can say otherwise now makes me think they are propaganda tools for one of these agencies.

NEDude
08-20-2015, 09:45 AM
The quote stuff is getting messed up. I am being quoted in stuff I did not say, and the same thing is happening with other posts. I did not say the following:

"Trust me, got to ORD, LGA, or Heathrow. Beijing looks like the first world airport."

Probe
08-20-2015, 07:09 PM
Yeah, the quote function is messed up.

16 hour duty days are not authorized in China. Even calling the trainee on the jumpseat a "crew member" doesn't get you anywhere close to 16 hours.

NEDude
08-20-2015, 09:54 PM
Yeah, the quote function is messed up.

16 hour duty days are not authorized in China. Even calling the trainee on the jumpseat a "crew member" doesn't get you anywhere close to 16 hours.

Actually you can theoretically go indefinitely if you have a 'sleeping facility' available and you can 'have a rest' there. Because 'sleeping time is not calculated as duty time'. There is wide determination as to what a 'sleeping facility' is. My company has argued that the flight deck, while on delay, constitutes a sleeping facility. Also undefined is when the 'sleep time' begins or ends. My company routinely schedules days well in excess of 16 hours, with only two pilots, but has a built in 'sleep time' of five or six hours in the middle. Of course that sleep time is routinely reduced or eliminated due to delays, which leads the company arguing that if we rested in the flight deck during a delay then we are legal.

I was threatened with suspension once last year if I refused to accept their defining the flight deck as a sleeping area. I stood my ground and they backed down, but I did get accosted by the replacement pilot who was called off of reserve. Recently the company has not been backing down though and guys have been fined and/or suspended for refusing to fly.

airspeed1974
08-21-2015, 05:16 AM
Yeah, the quote function is messed up. 16 hour duty days are not authorized in China. Even calling the trainee on the jumpseat a "crew member" doesn't get you anywhere close to 16 hours.

Ok, you 100 percent could not have worked in China. Must I copy and paste our GOM for you??? Not authorized in China? Really? Wanna bet your entire life savings on that?

Not always , actually 90 percent of the time not a trainee in the jumpseat either. Why do you talk such BS?

airspeed1974
08-21-2015, 05:24 AM
Actually you can theoretically go indefinitely if you have a 'sleeping facility' available and you can 'have a rest' there. Because 'sleeping time is not calculated as duty time'. There is wide determination as to what a 'sleeping facility' is. My company has argued that the flight deck, while on delay, constitutes a sleeping facility. Also undefined is when the 'sleep time' begins or ends. My company routinely schedules days well in excess of 16 hours, with only two pilots, but has a built in 'sleep time' of five or six hours in the middle. Of course that sleep time is routinely reduced or eliminated due to delays, which leads the company arguing that if we rested in the flight deck during a delay then we are legal. I was threatened with suspension once last year if I refused to accept their defining the flight deck as a sleeping area. I stood my ground and they backed down, but I did get accosted by the replacement pilot who was called off of reserve. Recently the company has not been backing down though and guys have been fined and/or suspended for refusing to fly.

See that's the thing that would be the final straw for me. From my understanding they cannot give you over 14 hours unless due to a delay which in China you know is expected. As for the hotel thing with if you have more than one hour of rest they can deduct it from your duty well you still need 10 hours (can be reduced to 9) or 12 hours if getting in after 12 of rest after the duty day.

They tried that crap here about sleeping in the plane and we told them to take a hike. They know better and never pushed the issue. My days are nornally 10 hours , sometimes 5 hours if just doing one leg (this includes briefing)

The only time it gets to 16 is when there is huge delays and if we did Singapore or Harbin and were delayed.

While I'm def not a kool aid drinker I gotta say this is what scares me about other Chinese carriers when compared to SZA.

Another example they tried was with this 4 day Phuket trip. You leave at 11 PM on day 1, and you arrive back on day 4 at 7am. It's very easy and you stay at a nice resort.

However they tried pulling this crap where your 36 hours of rest (that's per caac but everyone knows we always get min 2 days) is spent in Phuket so you would get back on day 4 at 7am and then fly 4 more days for a total of 8.

We said no way. Our days off are here in Shenzhen. Period. End of story. And it hasn't happened since

Probe
08-23-2015, 04:25 AM
Your 36 hours of rest can absolutely be used as "rest" days, under FAA, EASA, CAAC, and ICAO rules. They are not "days off", but they are legal rest days for days free of duty over a certain (7?) number of days on duty.

My average duty day was much shorter in China than the US.
My average number of hours delayed per week/month was shorter in China than the US.
I was "screwed with" far more in the US than China by my company.
I was lied to much more in the US than in China.
I was paid much more in China, and got more time off.

And the best thing about China is this: The bottom 10%ers, like the ones complaining here, didn't last very long in China. The companies get tired of their games very quickly. The only thing good about them in the contract world, is they make the rest of us look good.

In the US, their antics and poor attitudes are protected under the umbrella of unionism.

Trust me, the vast majority of expats working in China are reasonably happy working there. It is not perfect. This thread is all about the bottom few who won't be happy anywhere they work.

The Dominican
08-23-2015, 06:25 AM
This thread is all about the bottom few who won't be happy anywhere they work.

And the few who are actively interviewing everywhere but are not getting job offers because nobody believes their "Paper Mate" resume.

gearupflapsup
08-31-2015, 06:39 PM
Downloaded it. Was a great read. Thanks for the effort and the warning......

CloudSpirit
09-04-2015, 07:55 AM
Ima lay down a little ground rule for a minute:

IF YOU'RE GOING TO COMMENT HERE, GREAT!
DOWNLOAD AND READ THE DANG BOOK FIRST.


I've been away a little bit and now have some time to comment and make updates. While I've been gone, some things have been claimed by folks that are just not true. Let's take a look:


16 hour duty days are not authorized in China. Even calling the trainee on the jumpseat a "crew member" doesn't get you anywhere close to 16 hours. [Emphasis added]

Probe, I appreciate the time and effort you make to come here and comment, but I have firsthand experience over several years to the contrary. All of Duke's contributors have firsthand experience with this practice. I also have company and CAAC memos to show your claim is absolutely untrue. When you make these statements you immediately discredit yourself, and I'd prefer you didn't do that. But if you insist...

In Appendix I (p. 359 aka p. XV) the issue of duty time is addressed with 2 separate company memos from Tianjin which authorize and publish the names of numerous flight crews that operated flights over 15, 16 and 17 hours of duty. One is a screen shot and one is a cut/paste because I had to run them through friggn translate. To wit:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-YLssDzRZ4VM/VemtXEdhi9I/AAAAAAAAAC0/GLsrSKTjX6U/w426-h584/duty%2Btime%2B2.png


https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-6aqdyewDQTk/VemuN8grnSI/AAAAAAAAADc/rliC4JOb-ng/w426-h584/duty%2Btime%2B3.png


https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-9DPdqBosr_8/Vemv1xhLIhI/AAAAAAAAAEQ/7ccYFuEf_38/w426-h584/duty%2Btime%2B4.png


So, there that. As for the CAAC memo:I couldn't find it after a cursory run through. I have the original document in my volumes of notes as do a couple of others on our team. I just don't have the time to dig right now. What I think happened is it was included in a revision of FUD that got stuck on a drive that took a dump on us and we had to revert back to an earlier version that lost 6 months of material. I WILL find it though, and when I do I will post it here.
Next, let's unpack another set of wild claims:


My average duty day was much shorter in China than the US.
My average number of hours delayed per week/month was shorter in China than the US.
I was "screwed with" far more in the US than China by my company.
I was lied to much more in the US than in China.
I was paid much more in China, and got more time off.

And the best thing about China is this: The bottom 10%ers, like the ones complaining here, didn't last very long in China. The companies get tired of their games very quickly. The only thing good about them in the contract world, is they make the rest of us look good.

In the US, their antics and poor attitudes are protected under the umbrella of unionism.

Trust me, the vast majority of expats working in China are reasonably happy working there. It is not perfect. This thread is all about the bottom few who won't be happy anywhere they work.

Wow, where do I start? Let's work it from the bottom up.

And the best thing about China is this: The bottom 10%ers, like the ones complaining here, didn't last very long in China. The companies get tired of their games very quickly. The only thing good about them in the contract world, is they make the rest of us look good.

In the US, their antics and poor attitudes are protected under the umbrella of unionism.

Trust me, the vast majority of expats working in China are reasonably happy working there. It is not perfect. This thread is all about the bottom few who won't be happy anywhere they work.
Gooby, plees.

I can't believe I have to state that I've been quite happy at many jobs, but not all. By way of rejoinder, I DEFY YOU to claim you have been happy at every job you've ever held. Nobody has. We've all had a sh!t job here and there. It happens. Now, if you want to put China at the top of your list of awesome jobs, that's your prerogative, and that's great man! Kudos, I'm personally glad you've had a blast with it.

BUT, if you're going to claim it's the bottom 10% who DON'T share your experience, you are WAY out of line, sir. The percentage, if that high, is opposite. IF 10% could make it through XYZ airline's interview and last 1 year, even that is a high number for the Chinese to advertise. AND BE HAPPY? Woah. I need some of the crack you're snorting.

Our group was estimating the Chinese at Tianjin and other Hainan "tentacles" were going through 30-50 expats interviewing just to get 1 on property for more than a year. That percentage dropped significantly after 2 years. If folks could make it through 4, then you were looking at people with excellent coping skills, tough knee guards and just the right shade of lipstick.

How I made it though the interview... hell if I know. God?
How I made it 4 years... hell if I know. Sold my soul to the devil?
How others I knew made it... hell if I know. Lots and lots of drinking was a good start, and I don't effing drink normally dammitall.


My average duty day was much shorter in China than the US.
My average number of hours delayed per week/month was shorter in China than the US.
I was "screwed with" far more in the US than China by my company.
I was lied to much more in the US than in China.
I was paid much more in China, and got more time off.

OK, LOL time.
BWAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAA :-)
Love it!

"I was lied to much more in the US than in China."
HAHAHAHA :-) Beautiful. You made my day sir, thanks. Ima let folks read the book and dig through all the information and anecdotes we have to the contrary.

But, I don't want to leave you in the lurch, Probe. No, I want to point out where you are absolutely correct:

The companies get tired of their games very quickly... In the US, their antics and poor attitudes are protected under the umbrella of unionism.
If by "games" you include QAR violations, complaints about flop-house-style hotel accommodations, disgusting food choices and preparation, etc. etc. all in a foreign country where people don't speak your language or culture then YES. YOU ARE SO CORRECT about the Chinese getting tired of expat antics it makes me shed a tear; and it's EXACTLY THIS that the book Flying Upside Down is absolutely trying to make clear and disseminate to the 30-50 would-be interviewee washouts who don't know what they are getting themselves into.

The only thing good about them in the contract world, is they make the rest of us look good.
Lastly, let's unpack what's between the lines of this sentiment. It's just this kind of selfishness and clique behavior that drives some honestly good people away from China. I don't know what happens to people when they set foot in that land, but their wires get severely crossed. Again, the message FUD and Duke is sending to folks by and large is that contract pilot work IS NOT for everyone. Be forewarned and do not be fooled by an ad that claims you will be paid 300K to fly an airbus bump-and-grind around mainland China.

C.S.

CloudSpirit
09-04-2015, 08:27 AM
One last parting shot:

Remember this, when your friend or whatever is trying to get you to go over to China because it's SO AWESOME, there is probably a significant finder's fee associated with that.

If you're going to follow up on that, you should be taking a piece! It's all about money, and bear that in mind when you find yourself on the street... Thanks friend. Bah, Union protection? Who needs that... LOL.

Read the book.
C.S.

CloudSpirit
09-04-2015, 09:01 AM
Downloaded it. Was a great read. Thanks for the effort and the warning......

No probs GU/FU; we are glad to have provided any insights.

We appreciate folks who do not like the book as well, we just reserve the right to mutually disagree, defend our information and parry name calling or other ad hominem.

C.S.

CloudSpirit
09-04-2015, 09:52 AM
...with so many posts, here are some explosions that threaten to blow your mind. These videos blew mine.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-1EWKYoGCRV0/VenRL-4TE5I/AAAAAAAAAFM/giJQjhSL6kY/w426-h511/explosion%2B1.png


These are the voices of expats living right down the street from this event. I haven't heard a "Holy sh!t" expressed quite like this since 9/11. A group of us expat pilots lived about 3 miles from the disaster area:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q04fV4j7A1w

How would you like to be this guy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-Ud7jgPqdE



Hear the baby in the background of this one and tell me you want to take your kids there with you:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7FXeaahRsg


Indeed, this is just one event. But it had an aftermath:Tianjin Aftermath: 'Chemical Rain' Leaves Streets Foaming, Residents Complain about Rashes (http://www.ibtimes.co.in/tianjin-aftermath-chemical-rain-leaves-streets-foaming-residents-complain-about-rashes-643377)
This is just effin' GREAT:
...the streets were covered with white foam and local residents who came in contact with the rainwater complained of 'stinging sensation' and rashes.Ya wanna stick it out in a country where, in the aftermath of something like this happening, you're surrounded by throngs of people who are oblivious to your existence, loudspeakers and TVs announcing things you can't understand, trying to get away from something happening and you have no car, there are no taxis (that will pick up your sorry sack), the trains are halted... and even if you managed to get to a station you forgot your dang passport and can't get a ticket or they won't let you on...

But don't panic, you're being paid 300K a year and you aren't being lied to (according to an earlier post in this thread).

And hey, it was just one event. We're good to go now, right?http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/08/21/world/asia/tianjin-china-explosion-hazardous-chemical-sites.html?_r=0
Maybe not so much:
...buildings across China that store toxic chemicals near residential areas or major roads, in violation of safety regulations, according to a review of satellite imagery and public records.Yeah, but this is really just an isolated event. Nope:Chinese fireworks truck explosion destroys bridge | World news | The Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/feb/01/china-fireworks-explosion-truck)
The Chinese government outlawed fireworks from 1993 to 2005, but ultimately lifted the ban under intense public pressure.
AaaaaaHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! LOL :-)

C.S.

CloudSpirit
09-04-2015, 10:09 AM
And a whole lot of stuff happens. Epidemic? Naw, you decide...
Sounds like a great place to go work for a few years.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++China United Airlines, pilots sanctioned over fight in cockpit | Regulation content from ATWOnline (http://atwonline.com/regulation/china-united-airlines-pilots-sanctioned-over-fight-cockpit)
The Civil Aviation Administration of China (CAAC) has penalized both China United Airlines and two pilots who reportedly started a fight in the cockpit.


The CAAC has imposed a 10% reduction on the airline’s existing route time, and in addition has restricted it from opening up any new flight routings, either scheduled or charter. The regulatory agency also banned the two pilots from flying for six months, and said the incident was “one of a series of contraventions” that China United had seen that resulted in flight bans on both the pilots and the airline.


Beijing-based China United Airlines is a low-cost carrier, which is an offshoot of full-service China Eastern Airlines, and operates a fleet of 30 Boeing 737 aircraft to mainly tier-two cities out of Beijing’s regional airport, Nanyuan.


CAAC said the carrier had recorded “seriously violated regulations” over the last two months, with one of its aircraft recently certified as not suitable to fly by pre-flight inspectors.


In another recent incident, one of China United's flights was recorded as flying “below a minimum safe altitude,” according to another report.


+++++++++
Ya know, come to think of it, I think I saw an ad for CUA with an urgent call for a foreign captain this morning in my inbox. 300K and excellent benefits...

CloudSpirit
09-04-2015, 10:32 AM
Yeah... they were trying their hardest to put out this fire before it blew up. Probably not even sure they knew what they were getting into there. Look at these trucks, some with headlights still on. A whole lot of first responders lost their lives that night. Vaya con dios mis compadres.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zr0MOvYtxeg


My God:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5GsQXPOcPA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aeRnBNE3HQk

airspeed1974
09-04-2015, 10:55 PM
Probe is totally full of BS. Dominican is a legend in his own mind. Neither live on this planet but in a psychedelic version of romper room....or maybe magic garden

Typhoonpilot
09-05-2015, 05:45 AM
You guys keep cutting down two of the better contributors to this forum. Sorry, but they have been here much longer and contributed much more than either of you have.

If you do not agree with their positions that is not a valid enough excuse to slander their character or call into question their experience. As you well know, all airlines in China are different. SF Express is world's apart from Shenzhen Airlines as an example. Xiamen is different than Hainan. RJ, narrowbody, and widebody flying will all be different as well. So an individual's experience could be vastly different from yours. That doesn't make it wrong and is certainly no excuse to slander them.



Typhoonpilot

airspeed1974
09-05-2015, 06:24 AM
You guys keep cutting down two of the better contributors to this forum. Sorry, but they have been here much longer and contributed much more than either of you have. If you do not agree with their positions that is not a valid enough excuse to slander their character or call into question their experience. As you well know, all airlines in China are different. SF Express is world's apart from Shenzhen Airlines as an example. Xiamen is different than Hainan. RJ, narrowbody, and widebody flying will all be different as well. So an individual's experience could be vastly different from yours. That doesn't make it wrong and is certainly no excuse to slander them. Typhoonpilot

You need to read from earlier in the thread before you start making accusations of myself or CS slandering anyone on here. First of all I could care less how long they have been on this board. Respect is earned not just given.

Probe is the one who questioned MY credentials and mr instigator Dominican has more than once on here as well as another post started crap with me personally just because he disagreed with what I said.

So pls write with a bit more facts next time

airspeed1974
09-05-2015, 06:26 AM
And I call BS when I see it. Every single thing that Probe wrote is full of it. No 16 hour duty days? Is he on crack??

I been living and working here since 2010 and still currently do. If I see things that are total BS I'm gonna call him out on it as so will others.

CloudSpirit
09-05-2015, 09:19 AM
I wasn't cutting anyone down, I was setting the record straight which I have every right to do, Mr. hall monitor. LOL!

Typhoon, you make a lot of assumptions about who has been on this board under what screen name longer than someone else under some other screen name...


Anyhow, what about them explosions!
Pack your bags, we're goin' to China!

Probe
09-05-2015, 09:28 PM
Airspeed, when you work for a big airline, which you never have, you get to fly with somebody new almost every time you go to work. You get pretty good about guessing about where a person came from, professionally. It is almost like a hobby guessing to yourself, quietly, until you ask.

Let me take a guess.

Got hired at US Air Express for 2 years? Wasn't that your claim? Probably mid 2000's, with little other experience. Skybus and USA3000 start hiring, you get hired (I would guess USA3000, as I heard the chief pilot also worked in China). USA3000 goes POOF. Your FO time at USA3000 miraculously becomes PIC time, and you land a job as a 320 Captain in China. How did I do? Oh yeah, you flew "fighters". LOL

I do have to give you great credit for going from 20K a year to over 200K a year in near record time. You lose all that credit, and more, for not being grateful for your aforementioned luck, and keeping quiet.

Your complaints about China show what you actually are. A minimally experienced kid who did manage to get to a position to which he was not mature enough to handle.

Working in China is far from perfect, but no other place is perfect either. Someday, with more experience, hopefully you will understand this.

Or not.

airspeed1974
09-06-2015, 03:03 AM
Airspeed, when you work for a big airline, which you never have, you get to fly with somebody new almost every time you go to work. You get pretty good about guessing about where a person came from, professionally. It is almost like a hobby guessing to yourself, quietly, until you ask. Let me take a guess. Got hired at US Air Express for 2 years? Wasn't that your claim? Probably mid 2000's, with little other experience. Skybus and USA3000 start hiring, you get hired (I would guess USA3000, as I heard the chief pilot also worked in China). USA3000 goes POOF. Your FO time at USA3000 miraculously becomes PIC time, and you land a job as a 320 Captain in China. How did I do? Oh yeah, you flew "fighters". LOL I do have to give you great credit for going from 20K a year to over 200K a year in near record time. You lose all that credit, and more, for not being grateful for your aforementioned luck, and keeping quiet. Your complaints about China show what you actually are. A minimally experienced kid who did manage to get to a position to which he was not mature enough to handle. Working in China is far from perfect, but no other place is perfect either. Someday, with more experience, hopefully you will understand this. Or not.

Wow, I sure hope you keep your day job and don't try to become a fortune teller because man you are totally off on every single count.

First of all you have no idea whether I did or did not work for a large airline. But to your credit you guessed correct, and on that point only.

I never worked for any US Air carrier. I worked for one regional that furloughed me after 9-11 and one 121 supplemental with crap pay. That's the extent of my US 121 experience.

Next, I never flew Airbus. And if you knew how to read and read my posts I said I was in China for a little over 5 years. So how the hell would knowing the CP at USA 3000 benefit me when I went to work in China many years AFTER USA 3000 went under. I actually interviewed there, got the job as a seasonal FO on the 320 and right before the class they went under....

As for flying fighters yes I did. Why do you find that so hard to believe?

As far as my gratitude I have more than repaid that in sweat, blood and stress. And while I ofcourse am thankful that won't stop me from saying the truth and pointing out BS artist like yourself.

NEDude
09-06-2015, 04:57 AM
Wow, I sure hope you keep your day job and don't try to become a fortune teller because man you are totally off on every single count.

First of all you have no idea whether I did or did not work for a large airline. But to your credit you guessed correct, and on that point only.

I never worked for any US Air carrier. I worked for one regional that furloughed me after 9-11 and one 121 supplemental with crap pay. That's the extent of my US 121 experience.

Next, I never flew Airbus. And if you knew how to read and read my posts I said I was in China for a little over 5 years. So how the hell would knowing the CP at USA 3000 benefit me when I went to work in China many years AFTER USA 3000 went under. I actually interviewed there, got the job as a seasonal FO on the 320 and right before the class they went under....

As for flying fighters yes I did. Why do you find that so hard to believe?

As far as my gratitude I have more than repaid that in sweat, blood and stress. And while I ofcourse am thankful that won't stop me from saying the truth and pointing out BS artist like yourself.

I am a former U3K guy, and no our CP did not come to China, he is currently working for a major U.S. airline.

airspeed1974
09-06-2015, 05:12 AM
I am a former U3K guy, and no our CP did not come to China, he is currently working for a major U.S. airline.

I was offered a 6 month contract there a long time ago for some seasonal stuff. They seemed like a good group of guys. Seems that Probe is FOS again....

Our flight was only delayed one hour today. Amazing. I think that's the shortest delay I had in the last month.

NE I'm sure you have done this before but it cracks me up when the controller tells you "descent rate more than 2500FPM" and you ask him why.......normally there is the canned answers. Due to restriction, or traffic. But if you further enquire then 90 percent of the time they ignore you or can't answer...

The best one was, ATC: due to traffic ME: ok, where is the traffic ATC: in front of you ME: ok and he is how far? 100 kilometers same direction....... Ok got it, we need to descend like a bat out of hell due to traffic 50 miles away flying the same direction as us.....

CloudSpirit
09-06-2015, 08:28 AM
ATC: due to traffic ME: ok, where is the traffic ATC: in front of you ME: ok and he is how far? 100 kilometers same direction....... Ok got it, we need to descend like a bat out of hell due to traffic 50 miles away flying the same direction as us.....

Yeah, and the descent/climb is for what, 2000ft??? How many times did I have this clearance... it's making my forehead pound just thinking about it.

"Uh, captain, the controller said expedite descent."
"What does that mean exactly?"
"Uh, captain, it means to expedite."
"OK, I'm expediting. 1500fpm. That's expediting."
"Uh captain, but the controller said..."
BAHP BAHP BAHP... [altitude alerter sounds]
"OK, so... you were saying?"
{Bohai 123, descend 3600 meters, expedite.}
{Control, confirm Bohai 123 descend 3600 meters?}
{Roger Bohai 123, descend 3600 meters, expedite descent!}
{Roger, Bohai 123, descend 3600 meters, expedite descent}
"Captain, control said expedite descent 3600 meters."
"Son, that's another 2000ft descent. Please tell me how many seconds it will take at 2000fpm?"
"Uh captain, it will take 60, but the controller said..."
"Now tell me how many seconds it will take at 1500fps."
"Uh..."
"It will take about 75 seconds."
"Uh, but captain..."

Shoot me in the head.

CloudSpirit
09-06-2015, 09:04 AM
If you do not agree with their positions that is not a valid enough excuse to slander their character or call into question their experience. As you well know, all airlines in China are different...

This is, again, EXACTLY what we are trying to dispel at FUD headquarters. No, no, NO. One of the team members was kind enough to take time from his busy schedule and forwarded me the CAAC memo. Reading this will illustrate how the Chinese think at large. I can talk you until I'm blue in the face and you won't listen. That's bad, but it's also OK because it holds our feet to the fire. What you will see, again and again from the pilots IN THEATRE and repatriated is a consistent story of how messed up it is to do this job in China. You better have some good bullet dodging skills when you enter their shores, DO NOT be fooled or star-struck by the money or promises of grandeur.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-fcyPnyxqav0/VexvieHrHMI/AAAAAAAAAF8/qWLMgqQV2dM/w426-h552/CAAC1.png

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-fwZpTPKL2gQ/VexwKo1JIBI/AAAAAAAAAG4/CcbzkHIcJ0I/w426-h552/CAAC2.png
Isn't that some sheeit?


Now, pointing out that someone posting XYZ is wrong by using evidence and anecdote is not slander, it's debate. I'm sorry that is being lost in the mix and if folks egos are that delicate it ASTOUNDS me they were able to survive in China for ANY amount of time. Being in China takes some thick skin, enormous coping skills, and the ability to laugh things off... or drink them off at the pub with like-minded friends who aren't ordering coolaid.

C.S.

CloudSpirit
09-06-2015, 09:16 AM
The memo above is in reference to this post a couple of pages back.

...some things have been claimed by folks that are just not true. Let's take a look:



Probe, I appreciate the time and effort you make to come here and comment, but I have firsthand experience over several years to the contrary. All of Duke's contributors have firsthand experience with this practice. I also have company and CAAC memos to show your claim is absolutely untrue. When you make these statements you immediately discredit yourself, and I'd prefer you didn't do that. But if you insist...

In Appendix I (p. 359 aka p. XV) the issue of duty time is addressed with 2 separate company memos from Tianjin which authorize and publish the names of numerous flight crews that operated flights over 15, 16 and 17 hours of duty. One is a screen shot and one is a cut/paste because I had to run them through friggn translate. To wit:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-YLssDzRZ4VM/VemtXEdhi9I/AAAAAAAAAC0/GLsrSKTjX6U/w426-h584/duty%2Btime%2B2.png


https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-6aqdyewDQTk/VemuN8grnSI/AAAAAAAAADc/rliC4JOb-ng/w426-h584/duty%2Btime%2B3.png


https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-9DPdqBosr_8/Vemv1xhLIhI/AAAAAAAAAEQ/7ccYFuEf_38/w426-h584/duty%2Btime%2B4.png


So, there that. As for the CAAC memo:I couldn't find it after a cursory run through. I have the original document in my volumes of notes as do a couple of others on our team. I just don't have the time to dig right now. What I think happened is it was included in a revision of FUD that got stuck on a drive that took a dump on us and we had to revert back to an earlier version that lost 6 months of material. I WILL find it though, and when I do I will post it here.

airspeed1974
09-06-2015, 03:27 PM
The memo above is in reference to this post a couple of pages back.

Yeah but ofcourse Probe and Dominican know better, they watched many Jackie Chan movies....

NEDude
09-06-2015, 04:40 PM
I was offered a 6 month contract there a long time ago for some seasonal stuff. They seemed like a good group of guys. Seems that Probe is FOS again....

Our flight was only delayed one hour today. Amazing. I think that's the shortest delay I had in the last month.

NE I'm sure you have done this before but it cracks me up when the controller tells you "descent rate more than 2500FPM" and you ask him why.......normally there is the canned answers. Due to restriction, or traffic. But if you further enquire then 90 percent of the time they ignore you or can't answer...

The best one was, ATC: due to traffic ME: ok, where is the traffic ATC: in front of you ME: ok and he is how far? 100 kilometers same direction....... Ok got it, we need to descend like a bat out of hell due to traffic 50 miles away flying the same direction as us.....

U3K was a pretty good gig. I got a few years out of it before they downsized and I got furloughed. I actually did get a short-term recall notice shortly before they closed the doors. They had already made the shutdown plan, but the few remaining pilots they had were bailing faster than expected, so they offered recalls to help fill the remaining contractual obligations they had. But I had already moved on at that point.

I have had some decent luck the last few weeks, but I did get a 27 minute delay in Beijing last week because there was no tug to push us back. We got clearance to push right as our tug gave up and drove away. Took 27 minutes for him to get back to us. So much for China having enough tugs. Of course after he did come back and we pushed, we had a 64 minute taxi out with both engines running because the Chinese are too scared to allow single engine taxi.

airspeed1974
09-06-2015, 05:26 PM
And please maybe one of you can answer this. Why do Chinese crews NEVER pull up to the hold short line????

NEDude
09-06-2015, 05:44 PM
And please maybe one of you can answer this. Why do Chinese crews NEVER pull up to the hold short line????

When I arrived in China one of the guys who had been here a while said the best way to explain China is that they are scared, all of them.

Why do they make you expedite all your clubs and descents?
Because they are scared.

Why don't they pull up to the hold short lines?
Because they are scared.

Why don't they allow single engine taxi?
Because they are scared.

You can use the same answer for just about every question you have about China.

CloudSpirit
09-06-2015, 07:06 PM
When I arrived in China one of the guys who had been here a while said the best way to explain China is that they are scared, all of them.


This is an excellent way to describe the situation NED; they are afraid of their own shadows... and yet, it's amazing the risks they take, the corruption that leaves massive gaps in public safety, the attitude of anyone in a position of authority assuming they are above the law and acting accordingly. I don't know if some of it is chalked up to laziness, or hazardous attitudes like invincibility (sino-centrism)? I noticed it early on, a kind of other-worldliness to their thinking and behavior, as though what they were doing in the here-and-now didn't really matter, as such? It's really hard to nail down, and goes to what we agreed to explain in the book as, "Entering an alien world, as though you were meeting Martians and trying to relate." Now, we all bleed the same color, we all have our own picadillos and idiosyncrasies, I'm not saying that isn't the case. What I am saying it's really hard to put your finger on it and explain the feeling of displacement, alienation and utter confusion and good ol' fashioned ***!?!

Sometimes it can be cute and endearing; but, if you are not open-minded, you're going to be hit with culture shock really bad, and it's trial by fire. I saw a lot of guys go sideways, and I DID TOO from time to time, and I consider myself pretty open-minded.

It's weird how they compartmentalize things. One of our bigger contributors shared his observations that the Chinese LOVE rules, they love the rule making process, they love learning about the rules and they love quoting the rules. BUT, nobody really follows the rules and nobody really enforces the rules. Having said that, if you DO get caught breaking the rules, they also LOVE punishment. I theorize it works as a kind of group therapy in that it confirms one's position as accepted by the group to be punished and chastised by group leaders. It's weird...

C.S.

airspeed1974
09-06-2015, 07:43 PM
They are also a punishment culture. This is the only way they know. And I agree they are scared and very timid in general.

Funniest thing in addition to their unimaginable horrendous driving skills is this..... Go to any underground parking lot in China and wait at the bottom of the hill leading up to the exit. Watch the cars line up. I can 99.9 percent guarantee you that they will wait at the bottom of the hill rather than pull up behind the car as they are afraid of staying on an incline.

OR

Go out on any rainy day and watch EVERYONE with their hazards flashing. They were never taught how to use the hazards, mirrors, or blinkers but sure as hell know how to use the horn.

NEDude
09-07-2015, 05:11 PM
I was flying with an FO last night who, on his leg, refused to pull up to the hold short line, he was at least an airplane and a half length behind it. So I asked him why. He said almost every instructor teaches to sit that far back 'because they are afraid'. I asked 'afraid of what?' His was reply was 'of getting too close to the line'.

This guy was actually a bit reasonable because he could tell where I was going with this line of questioning. He explained that a lot of people in Chinese aviation always give a wider margin than required. For example if the CAAC has a standard for spacing, the leadership of an ATC unit will add additional buffer because the leaders are afraid of getting punished if there is an incident. Some ATC units have different spacing requirements than others. Again, there is the scared culture and punishment culture popping up again.

Here is my last gripe for the day - ATC units that refuse to talk to each other. For example Ningbo not talking with Hangzhou or Shanghai. At least Ningbo basically admits it on their ATIS, asking you to contact them before your handoff so you know which STAR you will use, because they do not talk to Hangzhou or Shanghai. But many times you have to just guess which STAR is in use because the prior ATC sectors do not bother informing you, or will not give you an answer when you ask. It has happened to me more than once where we started out on one arrival procedure, only to get handed off and find out they wanted us on a different procedure, but nobody would answer when we tried to confirm the procedure ahead of time.

Bushmaster09
09-07-2015, 07:36 PM
What the hell is up with the train whistle in the background of ATC? I hear this a lot when talking to sanya control coming from VTBS. It sounds like a 1920s locomotive. I swear I say *** to myself at least ten times when flying over/near this crazy country.

airspeed1974
09-07-2015, 10:28 PM
What the hell is up with the train whistle in the background of ATC? I hear this a lot when talking to sanya control coming from VTBS. It sounds like a 1920s locomotive. I swear I say *** to myself at least ten times when flying over/near this crazy country.

Didn't you know they are testing a new version of the flux capacitor??? That way the Chinese can all et DeLoreans and go back in time to the Cultural Revolution and make it right. Oh but first they would need to hit 88mph and if you have driven or flown in China you will now realize that's impossible. Please name the last Chinese F1 champion?!?!?!?!?!?

Probe
09-08-2015, 08:21 AM
Didn't you know they are testing a new version of the flux capacitor??? That way the Chinese can all et DeLoreans and go back in time to the Cultural Revolution and make it right. Oh but first they would need to hit 88mph and if you have driven or flown in China you will now realize that's impossible. Please name the last Chinese F1 champion?!?!?!?!?!?

Another brilliant, insightful post. Keep them coming.

airspeed1974
09-08-2015, 04:45 PM
Another brilliant, insightful post. Keep them coming.

Much better then the total lies and BS that you post!

Probe
09-10-2015, 09:22 AM
Much better then the total lies and BS that you post!

Good luck getting a real job. But hey, just tell them you "flew fighters"

airspeed1974
09-10-2015, 06:42 PM
Good luck getting a real job. But hey, just tell them you "flew fighters"

For someone who claims they have real job your sure begging and crying to come back here. Don't be so jealous probe, it's very unbecoming of you (:

airspeed1974
09-14-2015, 04:41 PM
Another brilliant, insightful post. Keep them coming.

Guess since he has been called out on the truth the liar has not much more to say

Probe
09-14-2015, 10:43 PM
Guess since he has been called out on the truth the liar has not much more to say

My resume?
I flew for 3 national flag carriers. Two American. Flew fighters. For real. One other airline, all domestic.

If me and you apply for the same job. I get the job. Your "resume" gets thrown in the garbage, where it belongs. I am not sure what you used to get hired at Shenzhen, but if you had half a brain, you would shut up, and be happy that you have a high paying job. The more you post on APC and PPRUNE, the closer you are to getting OUTTED, as a fraud.

I OUTTED another fraud, publicly, on PPRUNE, a few years ago. You are his twin brother, from another mother. If you really do fly for Shenzhen, I would highly recommend just shutting up, and going quietly into the night. There is nothing more that you can post, here or PPRUNE, that will do anything but get you $hitcanned, from your current job. You have so little real experience in aviation, it is readily apparent to all those real pilots who read APC.

If you are a "real' pilot, and not a 16 year old, just go away.

airspeed1974
09-18-2015, 03:31 PM
My resume? I flew for 3 national flag carriers. Two American. Flew fighters. For real. One other airline, all domestic. If me and you apply for the same job. I get the job. Your "resume" gets thrown in the garbage, where it belongs. I am not sure what you used to get hired at Shenzhen, but if you had half a brain, you would shut up, and be happy that you have a high paying job. The more you post on APC and PPRUNE, the closer you are to getting OUTTED, as a fraud. I OUTTED another fraud, publicly, on PPRUNE, a few years ago. You are his twin brother, from another mother. If you really do fly for Shenzhen, I would highly recommend just shutting up, and going quietly into the night. There is nothing more that you can post, here or PPRUNE, that will do anything but get you $hitcanned, from your current job. You have so little real experience in aviation, it is readily apparent to all those real pilots who read APC. If you are a "real' pilot, and not a 16 year old, just go away.

I think it's about time everyone knows what a fraud you really are. You got me banned because you cannot handle it when someone writes the truth. I doubt you even know what a fighter is and no it's not an RV6.

I have over 23 years of experience and i would bet my bottom dollar that it's a lot more than yours . You say you flew for all these carriers then what happened? Why are you so desperate to come back to China?

No there is nothing that can get me fired from my job. So I suggest you go back to yours as a barista tech cause that's where you belong.

CloudSpirit
09-21-2015, 09:12 AM
My resume?
I flew for 3 national flag carriers. Two American. Flew fighters. For real. One other airline, all domestic.

If me and you apply for the same job. I get the job. Your "resume" gets thrown in the garbage...

I OUTTED another fraud, publicly, on PPRUNE... If you really do fly for Shenzhen, I would highly recommend just shutting up...

Meanwhile, somewhere in China...
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-ye7mbW_h_gk/VgAx4uMMIII/AAAAAAAAAHo/WZNccAkpqog/w426-h368/1439731060336.jpg
Probe wins the internet... again...

So, I've been thinking of what to say about these fairly caustic threats over the last week because, clearly, they need to be addressed. Whether Probe is trolling or not, what is important in this thread is that we feel 'safe' to share information about China, not attack one another and DEFINITELY not threaten each others' jobs. This point was made on PPRUNE as well under the thread we posted there; clearly, Probe does not get it. Shameful traitor to his countrymen and fellow Western airmen... SMH.

The purpose of Flying Upside Down, as has been stated again and again, is that the book is intended to disseminate real-world information about living and working day-to-day in China. These are actual accounts by actual expats backed up with company memos, CAAC bulletins and sprinkled liberally with humor and satire to help the medicine. Our purpose has been achieved judging by the downloads, thread views and numerous messages of kudos. Probe, whatever you are trying to accomplish, you have FAILED to stem that tide.

On the other hand, while we have encouraged folks to post their opinions and experiences here, we've apparently dredged up this unsavory type. While it is really important to get both sides of the story, some positives in with the negatives, when someone debates a point and makes a strong contrary position, attacking the man in return is a logical fallacy and making overtures of these types is not only juvenile, it shows that the points being argued have a lot of weight behind them and cannot be countered.

I ran into the 'Probe' type in China and let me say, having this kind of challenge heaped on your shoulders while trying to just survive in those environs makes it an insufferable proposition. We made this point in an early chapter of FUD; and it's again being ignored.

Probe, go away. You are not welcome in this thread unless you shape it up and clean it up. If any of us do come across you, prepare to be slapped in the face with a fish.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lefP0_ZM-Lw

That is all.

C.S.

CloudSpirit
09-21-2015, 10:56 AM
So, we at FUD central have had some feedback from another potential expat who recently interviewed in China. He shared some photos of the CAAC hospital in Beijing for us to post here; we are also trying to get recent photos from the Army hospital in Tianjin. Not to worry, there will be someone else who shares photos of that one in the near future.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-xa6xNZN0mS0/VgBMoed802I/AAAAAAAAAJg/PIM8CYYKbdk/w426-h320/123.JPG
If you weren't sick before...


What Captain 'T' wanted to relate to our audience here was the filthy conditions and chaotic atmosphere he witnessed. As an airman medical candidate over there, you stand in line sandwiched in with really sick people (non-airline people who are seeking medical attention), patients being pushed past you on gurneys surrounded by urgent-faced nurses, patients wandering around in a daze with hoses hanging out of their bodies...

During one particular visit there was a protester in the foyer with large hand-written signs and shouting something in Chinese:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-uGJCyX4-i5o/VgBRORVlhMI/AAAAAAAAAKM/OHIw8gLUNaE/w426-h320/234.JPG
Protesting... something!

All the while, construction of the great nation of China continued unabated:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-BDgTX_JQTSU/VgBSLmJCG5I/AAAAAAAAAK8/dgZnJ8BwwUw/w426-h568/345.JPG
Don't mind me, just here to bring a load of dirt through the lobby of the hospital.
It's sterile, don't worry! I'm a professional, you can tell by my hat!





cont.
C.S.

vagabond
09-21-2015, 10:57 AM
Mod Note:

Good grief. Everyone (and I mean everyone) color within the lines of the Terms of Use and Forum Rules or you're going into the disciplinary system, from which many have not come back.

People are welcome to post in the Foreign section even though they may work at a Legacy or even a Regional. There is no rule against that. In fact, it makes the Forums much more dynamic. What is not a good thing is people outing others, posting personal identifiers, threats, trolling, posting flamebait, insults, profanity, nude pics, making racist comments (boy, did we have a lot of those) or making sexist remarks.

I am not logged in here 24/7 since I have a lot of obligations and commitments outside of APC, but when I do log in and see these types of posts, I get very unhappy. And believe me, you don't want me unhappy.

CloudSpirit
09-21-2015, 11:12 AM
Captain "T" had something wrong with his blood apparently... as does every candidate. So after drawing lots of vials and running lots of tests, he had to do another scan to check... something, who knows. They didn't tell him anything detailed in English. He just knew he had to do it. So, you get injected with dye and as preparation you are hooked up to an IV. This one has a nice air bubble in it...

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-9IcoW1R2DYw/VgBVXCqQ06I/AAAAAAAAALo/nc0ic4DyTEo/w426-h568/IMG_0389.JPG
Air is great for your cardio-vascular system!

cont.
C.S.

CloudSpirit
09-21-2015, 11:13 AM
Mod Note:

Good grief. Everyone (and I mean everyone) color within the lines of the Terms of Use and Forum Rules...

Thank you for this clarification VBnD. It is much appreciated.

C.S.

CloudSpirit
09-21-2015, 11:31 AM
This is the hotel he was put up in and had to pay for out of pocket. It was only about $40 a night... Seems the mini-bar had no arsenic this time around though.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-eiFC07Dlrrw/VgBYlGeDTMI/AAAAAAAAAMc/6xXYji2iRMU/w426-h320/IMG_0351.JPG
Welcome home from a tough day at the China


https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-DbKrBaY0S8o/VgBZkKZSHyI/AAAAAAAAANI/5Z5kmJ03v-U/w426-h568/IMG_0350.JPG
So THAT is where they keep the food stores!
In the dusty stairwell next to the fire extinguishers!


https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-O8xOioc6wsw/VgBaJnqmsiI/AAAAAAAAANw/JF14E3sFsTE/w426-h568/IMG_0390.JPG
Captain "T" told us the hotel restaurant is just opposite the stairwell.
Kinda where the red arrow is pointing. The food stores kept cycling...
Yup. It was being dusted off and served.



Enjoy your trip to work in China!
End transmission.
C.S.

airspeed1974
09-21-2015, 04:20 PM
Mod Note: Good grief. Everyone (and I mean everyone) color within the lines of the Terms of Use and Forum Rules or you're going into the disciplinary system, from which many have not come back. People are welcome to post in the Foreign section even though they may work at a Legacy or even a Regional. There is no rule against that. In fact, it makes the Forums much more dynamic. What is not a good thing is people outing others, posting personal identifiers, threats, trolling, posting flamebait, insults, profanity, nude pics, making racist comments (boy, did we have a lot of those) or making sexist remarks. I am not logged in here 24/7 since I have a lot of obligations and commitments outside of APC, but when I do log in and see these types of posts, I get very unhappy. And believe me, you don't want me unhappy.

Ok here is a question then, personally speaking I don't get offended easily. However when someone was to post something questions my credentials, or making remakes about my skills, resume etc, then I would think it's fair game to reply in the same way. Or is that considered flaimbaiting, trolling etc.

No one wants to get into a high school slugfest but at the same time one has to respond in a like manner

airspeed1974
09-21-2015, 04:33 PM
Mod Note: Good grief. Everyone (and I mean everyone) color within the lines of the Terms of Use and Forum Rules or you're going into the disciplinary system, from which many have not come back. People are welcome to post in the Foreign section even though they may work at a Legacy or even a Regional. There is no rule against that. In fact, it makes the Forums much more dynamic. What is not a good thing is people outing others, posting personal identifiers, threats, trolling, posting flamebait, insults, profanity, nude pics, making racist comments (boy, did we have a lot of those) or making sexist remarks. I am not logged in here 24/7 since I have a lot of obligations and commitments outside of APC, but when I do log in and see these types of posts, I get very unhappy. And believe me, you don't want me unhappy.

And on a side note we appreciate you being a mod and making things right. Regarding the racism, while some of the comments might seem that way I think atleast for myself my intention is not of a racists nature. It's just trying to explain and point out the diff between us and them. My wife is Chinese and I see many of the same culture diff in our relationship as I can see at work. But in no way I am a racist. I would say I'm a realist.

For myself as I am sure others we are fortunate to have these jobs and make the kind of salary we do. In the 5 years here I've managed to pay off my car, bikes , and house while still putting enough savings away to not worry if I don't get that dream job at a major. As a matter of fact sometimes I get the feeling that once a company back home knows you worked in China it's like your spoiled fruit. Maybe it's just me.

I think what CS as well as myself have been trying to do is simply point out the realities. This is to give people a taste of the day to day life of actually being here.

Regarding Probe or others I have conflict with I take it with a grain of salt. I am sure that (and I'm not blowing sunshine here) they are probably good guys who just are venting some frustration and when they get told they are wrong then it becomes personal to them.

So I think some sarcasm and going back and forth is ok. But threats (the personal insults don't bother me much actually make me laugh) and talking about getting others outted isn't cool. But that's just my opinion....

NEDude
09-21-2015, 06:13 PM
Everyone's mileage will differ. I know a handful of guys who love it in China. We have a couple of guys who have married local girls, started a family and essentially settled down full time in China. We have some guys who get burnt out immediately. At my airline we had a guy from Sweden start just four months ago. Saw him three days ago and he is stressed beyond belief and ready to get out. I got burnt out pretty quickly myself. I have survived over a year and a half now, but I am looking for a way out.

As for the safety, efficiency and professionalism of Chinese aviation, while there are clearly a few guys who think it is great, the VAST majority of us have major issues with it. And many of their corporate practices and policies go directly against ICAO standards and norms (e.g. the extreme punishment culture in the Chinese aviation)

CloudSpirit
09-21-2015, 07:24 PM
Yeah, the threats need to stop. That isn't cool at all.

As far as the story of the Swedish guy, this is very common among expats in China. I saw it again and again.

China will either make you or break you.


This is a reality that we are desperately trying to relate to people who get dollar signs dazzling their eyes. There are realities that need to be dealt with.

READ OUR BOOK BEFORE YOU MAKE THE GO/NO DECISION.


If you have a friend going over there, PLEASE, if you value your friendship send him our way. Here is a current link again:
Zippyshare.com - Flying Upside Down.pdf (http://www92.zippyshare.com/v/rRE4ARC2/file.html)
[31.77mb Flying Upside Down.pdf]

Flying Upside Down
C.S.
:cool:

PDpilot2011
09-29-2015, 07:12 AM
Ok, I am on my second China contract. I have been kicked out of left seat during touch and go's, I have failed the ICAO Chinglishhshsh exam, I have failed the ATP, and I have been sent home to wear the heart monitor after my medical....and with all that said, I am still here. There is a price to pay to fly and live here in China, some can and some cannot. I can say one thing, if you live and fly here, just be patient and try not to compare your situation to your own home country.


Cheers with one eye open in China

CloudSpirit
10-01-2015, 07:48 AM
Thanks PDP, that is great advice!

I have heard similar stories to yours time and again; to be sure, I went through a lot of the things you notate as well!

Fly safely over there,
C.S.

CloudSpirit
11-26-2015, 03:17 AM
We have had a major influx of news and inside information from 2-3 pilots who have quit or are quitting soon. We have also gotten a few stories from guys here at APC who shot over PM's so thanks for that as well.

Expect a second volume of F.U.D. to come out early next year along with multi-media offerings.

In short: China is NOT a long term solution; ya go there for a year or two, ride it for as long as you can stay sane, and then punch OUT before they punch you out. It is NOT a case of 'if' but a case of 'when' the sh!t will hit the fan.

CS

NEDude
11-26-2015, 04:24 AM
We have had a major influx of news and inside information from 2-3 pilots who have quit or are quitting soon. We have also gotten a few stories from guys here at APC who shot over PM's so thanks for that as well.

Expect a second volume of F.U.D. to come out early next year along with multi-media offerings.

In short: China is NOT a long term solution; ya go there for a year or two, ride it for as long as you can stay sane, and then punch OUT before they punch you out. It is NOT a case of 'if' but a case of 'when' the sh!t will hit the fan.

CS

Care to explain a bit? What is F.U.D.?

trip
11-26-2015, 06:45 AM
Care to explain a bit? What is F.U.D.?

See the prior page.
http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/1976371-post138.html

NEDude
11-26-2015, 09:26 PM
See the prior page.
http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/1976371-post138.html

Thanks. Everything has to be abbreviated these days...must be getting too old, I can't keep up. Lol.

CloudSpirit
11-29-2015, 06:57 AM
Everything has to be abbreviated these days...

FUD has a nice, appropriate ring to it :D

Dear lawrd, the trove of photos, videos, memos and personal narratives we just got... It's going to take a while to sift through it all and shape it up into a presentation.

bajthejino
11-29-2015, 01:55 PM
I lived in China about 10 years ago. Loved it. I don't know why I left really.

There were a lot of guys that came from Europe, N. America, etc. that came in thinking they were going to be living and working in an environment like they had come from. Well, it's not. Once you let go and accept it, it's a blast. Once you stop trying to go direct everywhere or trying to fix everything they do differently (well thats not how we did it in the US...)Communism has totally ruined the people. Its like they're collectively waking up from a deep sleep. Not all, just most. The new middle class. The educated, upper middle class are just like any westerner.
But as I skimmed though this book I could see people I remembered, the types that just had to go to McD's or KFC every time they saw one (bucket of chicken claws anyone?) or couldn't get over the spitting in public or smoking or bathhouses (yes, please) or traffic...It's the Orient. You are a stranger in a strange land.
This book just reinforces the stereotypes that tourists from the US are a bunch of DB nozzles.

CloudSpirit
11-30-2015, 05:51 PM
This book just reinforces the stereotypes that tourists from the US are a bunch of DB nozzles.
You make the fantastically erroneous mistake that this book was written entirely by pilots from the US. This is not true; but, believe what you will. Thanks for reading at any rate, opinions from all sides are important.

------------------
On another note, one of our affiliates received the following earlier:

LIMITED-TIME OPPORTUNITY!

Our recruiter has a number of A320 Captain positions available for Captains of other airline aircraft that either have or obtain an A320 type rating

Applicants must have 3,000 total time plus 1,000 PIC in an airline aircraft plus an A320 type rating issue by an ICAO country and under 55 years

Pay (net amount received by pilot) ranges up to $290,000 USD per year. Work schedules range from “resident" to "part time" to "month on, month off"

[...stuff...]

Recruiting Consultant

With over 20 years of experience in China, your fastest option to fly in China.

So, if you have 1,000 PIC in a Brazilia with 2,000 in a 172 YOU TOO can be a 320 Captain making just short of $300K a year! Stuff your old uniform in the trash and sign up today!

LOL, 20 years of experience. This means the 'recruiter' is 20 years old and lives in China. Good luck on that.

OCCP
11-30-2015, 06:08 PM
Well with 7500TT, 1500 in the A320 series but only 800tpic from my regional days I guess I'm still not qualified. Oh well....

I really enjoyed your book though. I think I may know one of the E190 captains who contributed.

airspeed1974
11-30-2015, 06:52 PM
I lived in China about 10 years ago. Loved it. I don't know why I left really. There were a lot of guys that came from Europe, N. America, etc. that came in thinking they were going to be living and working in an environment like they had come from. Well, it's not. Once you let go and accept it, it's a blast. Once you stop trying to go direct everywhere or trying to fix everything they do differently (well thats not how we did it in the US...)Communism has totally ruined the people. Its like they're collectively waking up from a deep sleep. Not all, just most. The new middle class. The educated, upper middle class are just like any westerner. But as I skimmed though this book I could see people I remembered, the types that just had to go to McD's or KFC every time they saw one (bucket of chicken claws anyone?) or couldn't get over the spitting in public or smoking or bathhouses (yes, please) or traffic...It's the Orient. You are a stranger in a strange land. This book just reinforces the stereotypes that tourists from the US are a bunch of DB nozzles.

China is a blast? Really? Sitting at a nice western owned cafe enjoying a latte while some peasant is sitting 20 feet away spitting his lungs out is a blast? Listening to car horns all damn day is a blast? Pls after 6 years tell me what I have been missing

NEDude
12-01-2015, 04:17 AM
China is a blast? Really? Sitting at a nice western owned cafe enjoying a latte while some peasant is sitting 20 feet away spitting his lungs out is a blast? Listening to car horns all damn day is a blast? Pls after 6 years tell me what I have been missing

Don't forget the smog, and questionable food safety!

Denti
12-01-2015, 04:32 AM
Well, some chinese airlines run currently hiring programs with european carriers in which experienced FOs run through their captain recruitment program (simulator, medical, ATPL), get an upgrade training back home plus 100 hours of line training and then join the chinese carrier as expat captains on their normal pay scheme.

NEDude
12-01-2015, 05:12 AM
I lived in China about 10 years ago. Loved it. I don't know why I left really.

There were a lot of guys that came from Europe, N. America, etc. that came in thinking they were going to be living and working in an environment like they had come from. Well, it's not. Once you let go and accept it, it's a blast. Once you stop trying to go direct everywhere or trying to fix everything they do differently (well thats not how we did it in the US...)Communism has totally ruined the people. Its like they're collectively waking up from a deep sleep. Not all, just most. The new middle class. The educated, upper middle class are just like any westerner.
But as I skimmed though this book I could see people I remembered, the types that just had to go to McD's or KFC every time they saw one (bucket of chicken claws anyone?) or couldn't get over the spitting in public or smoking or bathhouses (yes, please) or traffic...It's the Orient. You are a stranger in a strange land.
This book just reinforces the stereotypes that tourists from the US are a bunch of DB nozzles.

It is not just Americans that have issues in China. Europeans, Canadians, Mexicans, Brazilians, all have issues here. And don't blame it on being in 'the Orient'. South Korea, Japan, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Singapore are all in the 'Orient' and are nowhere near as backwards as the mainland Chinese. I have an acquaintance in China (not a pilot) who spent many years working Taiwan, Hong Kong and Singapore and decided to pursue an opportunity in mainland China. Despite being fluent in Mandarin (and can even read traditional Chinese), and having years of experience in Chinese cultures, he is not happy with China and cannot wait to get out.

So get over yourself already, the issues in China are not just limited to American pilots having a hard time with other cultures.

an aviator
12-10-2015, 04:34 AM
hi guys new to this forum, any idea working condition with uni-top cargo airline? they are looking for A300 crew? highly appreciate if any info?
cheers

Typhoonpilot
12-10-2015, 04:31 PM
hi guys new to this forum, any idea working condition with uni-top cargo airline? they are looking for A300 crew? highly appreciate if any info?
cheers


I think that is a scam deal that asks you to pay to go to the interview.

Steer clear if it is pilotcareers.aero



Typhoonpilot

CloudSpirit
12-23-2015, 09:06 PM
I think that is a scam deal that asks you to pay to go to the interview.

Steer clear if it is pilotcareers.aero

Typhoonpilot

Thanks for the heads-up Typhoon, much appreciated. There are a lot of scam deals including 9-Air, Sparkel Roll and a handful of others.

Here is another heads-up both myself and a friend got in our inbox today:

The U.S. Embassy has received information of possible threats against Westerners in the Sanlitun area of Beijing, on or around Christmas Day. U.S. citizens are urged to exercise heightened vigilance. The U.S. Embassy has issued the same guidance to U.S. government personnel.


Be safe over there you crazy ex-pats! Don't get stabbed by some anti-government sword wielding maniac!

CloudSpirit
12-23-2015, 09:12 PM
hi guys new to this forum... highly appreciate if any info?


Uh... didja perchance read the book yet sir? Many questions destroyed with answers in the pages of this tattered rag.

Flying Upside Down:
Zippyshare.com - Flying Upside Down.pdf (http://www92.zippyshare.com/v/rRE4ARC2/file.html)
[31.77mb Flying Upside Down.pdf]

The Dominican
12-24-2015, 03:16 AM
Be safe over there you crazy ex-pats! Don't get stabbed by some anti-government sword wielding maniac!

As opposed to being in college, church or the movies in the US???:rolleyes:

These days it seems you need to be mindful of your surroundings even while enjoying a cup of coffee at a café in Paris.

Turboprop
12-24-2015, 12:26 PM
any info of this Airlines? are they paying what they promise?


VOR Holdings has IMMEDIATE jobs available for B737EFIS and B737NG Captains. Jobs are available in Northern, Southern, Southeastern and Southwestern China.

Xiamen Airlines
Compensation (net amount received by pilot): Xiamen Airlines has five work options available with compensation ranging up to $305,876 USD per year plus overtime.
Work schedules available ranging from full time residence to 2 weeks ON, 2 weeks OFF

Base: Fuzhou - Southeastern China

Requirements
Option 1:
500 PIC hours in B737NG
Less than 55 years of age

Option 2:
500 PIC hours in the B737EFIS
Less than 55 years of age


Lucky Airlines
Compensation (net amount received by pilot): Lucky Airlines has four work options available with compensation ranging up to $257,400 USD per year plus overtime.
Work schedules available ranging from full time residence to 4 weeks ON, 4 weeks OFF

Base: Kunming - Southwestern China

Requirements
Option 1:
500 PIC hours in B737NG
Less than 53 years of age

Option 2:
1,000 PIC hours in B737EFIS (Difference training paid by airline)
Less than 53 years of age


OKAY Airlines

Compensation (net amount received by pilot): OKAY Airlines has three work options available with compensation ranging up to $255,204 USD per year plus over time.

Work schedules available ranging from full time residence to 9 weeks ON, 3 weeks OFF

Base: Tianjin - Northern China

Requirements
500 PIC hours in B737NG
Less than 55 years of age


9Air Airlines

Compensation (net amount received by pilot): 9Air Airlines has two work options available with compensation ranging up to $278,820 USD per year plus overtime.

Work schedules available ranging from full time residence (50 days off per year) to 6 weeks ON, 2 weeks OFF

Base: Guangzhou - Southern China

Requirements
600 PIC hours in B737NG
Less than 57 years of age

NEDude
12-25-2015, 03:18 AM
any info of this Airlines? are they paying what they promise?


VOR Holdings has IMMEDIATE jobs available for B737EFIS and B737NG Captains. Jobs are available in Northern, Southern, Southeastern and Southwestern China.

Xiamen Airlines
Compensation (net amount received by pilot): Xiamen Airlines has five work options available with compensation ranging up to $305,876 USD per year plus overtime.
Work schedules available ranging from full time residence to 2 weeks ON, 2 weeks OFF

Base: Fuzhou - Southeastern China

Requirements
Option 1:
500 PIC hours in B737NG
Less than 55 years of age

Option 2:
500 PIC hours in the B737EFIS
Less than 55 years of age


Lucky Airlines
Compensation (net amount received by pilot): Lucky Airlines has four work options available with compensation ranging up to $257,400 USD per year plus overtime.
Work schedules available ranging from full time residence to 4 weeks ON, 4 weeks OFF

Base: Kunming - Southwestern China

Requirements
Option 1:
500 PIC hours in B737NG
Less than 53 years of age

Option 2:
1,000 PIC hours in B737EFIS (Difference training paid by airline)
Less than 53 years of age


OKAY Airlines

Compensation (net amount received by pilot): OKAY Airlines has three work options available with compensation ranging up to $255,204 USD per year plus over time.

Work schedules available ranging from full time residence to 9 weeks ON, 3 weeks OFF

Base: Tianjin - Northern China

Requirements
500 PIC hours in B737NG
Less than 55 years of age


9Air Airlines

Compensation (net amount received by pilot): 9Air Airlines has two work options available with compensation ranging up to $278,820 USD per year plus overtime.

Work schedules available ranging from full time residence (50 days off per year) to 6 weeks ON, 2 weeks OFF

Base: Guangzhou - Southern China

Requirements
600 PIC hours in B737NG
Less than 57 years of age

Cannot speak to the specific airlines, but those contract terms do seem about par for the course here in China these days.

I am contracted through VOR with a different airline and have never had any issues with my pay. It has always been as advertised and on time.

Turboprop
12-26-2015, 07:42 PM
Cannot speak to the specific airlines, but those contract terms do seem about par for the course here in China these days.

I am contracted through VOR with a different airline and have never had any issues with my pay. It has always been as advertised and on time.


Thanks NEDude, for the info...

EuroMexPilot
12-30-2015, 01:04 PM
Any leads on E175 jobs in China or elsewhere in Asia?

NEDude
12-30-2015, 03:57 PM
Any leads on E175 jobs in China or elsewhere in Asia?

http://www.aviationcv.com

Pilot Jobs in China - VOR Holdings (http://www.vorholdings.com)

http://www.parcaviation.com

Direct Personnel (http://www.directpersonnel.com)

WASINC INTERNATIONAL (http://www.wasinc.aero)

Pilot Jobs | Aviation Jobs | Airline Pilot Jobs - Rishworth Aviation (http://www.rishworthaviation.com)

Longreach Aviation China (http://www.longreachchina.com)

http://http://www.aeropersonnel.com

»Take Flight with IASCO-GLOBAL!« (http://www.iasco.com)

http://http://www.tf-aviation.com

That should get you started in your search.

expedite
01-03-2016, 06:58 AM
Saw that one about life in...some ficticious country, that reminded me a bit.
Check it out!

themadhousetravelcompanion.blogspot.com

CloudSpirit
01-15-2016, 08:01 AM
I'd steer wide of Tianjin, seems they are having money problems. Contracts not being renewed, guys getting fired for random stuff, guys quitting in significant numbers. Beware!

Forthcoming videos of chief and line-check airmen asleep in flight, sim instructors sleeping in the simulator... etc. Stay tuned folks!

CloudSpirit
01-15-2016, 08:06 AM
Any leads on E175 jobs in China or elsewhere in Asia?

E190's only as I know it in China mate. Yes, same type... ;)

NEDude
01-15-2016, 06:01 PM
I'd steer wide of Tianjin, seems they are having money problems. Contracts not being renewed, guys getting fired for random stuff, guys quitting in significant numbers. Beware!

Forthcoming videos of chief and line-check airmen asleep in flight, sim instructors sleeping in the simulator... etc. Stay tuned folks!

Tianjin has been a mess since I interviewed with them three years ago. Hired a bunch of guys and then just days before they were supposed to start Tianjin decided they were not going to need pilots for another month or two. Cut all of them loose. I know two guys who had already quit their other jobs. A few months later they started from scratch with the interview process, leaving all the guys they had hired without a job. Then just a few months after that they did it all over again. They seemed to be a real mess.

Thankfully I never made it past the medical exam due to gallstones, so I was never left hanging like many others I interviewed with.

pierre66
01-29-2016, 12:28 AM
But the punishment for even a minor violation, one that would be hard to detect without a computer, is draconian and has the opposite effect of being safe. The entire world knows this with the exception of the Chinese.

One thing to keep in mind with the Chinese is that China spent the better part of a millennium trying to isolate itself from the rest of the world, including even its own neighbours. In fact China has only really tried to reach out and become part of the global community over the past 25 years or so. That is part of the reason even their neighbours have a hard time dealing with the Chinese (I am talking on a one to one and tourist type of level, not on a government level - although that is an issue as well). China in many ways has developed over the last 500+ years in an alternate reality and now is trying to make the rest of the world adapt to its ways. I always tell people that China is really a third world country with first world window dressing.

I'll second that. Excellent quote. A developing country that thinks it has arrived completely. Sorry China, you'll get there via your hard work and intelligence, but intelligence is also knowing what you don't know. And then learning from the experience of others. This concept is not practiced whatsoever in China.

Probe
01-29-2016, 02:25 AM
When they first got a few airbuses, we line trained all their bus pilots. Mostly good folks. Their head instructor was the biggest tool I flew with in China. A couple of our pilots wrote him up.

The financial problems can and will happen to any carrier in China. If the company gets busted by the CAAC, they will get punished. If that happens to your airline, it will affect you.

To be honest, it is no different than the up and down economic cycles in the rest of the world.

NEDude
01-29-2016, 03:36 AM
I'll second that. Excellent quote. A developing country that thinks it has arrived completely. Sorry China, you'll get there via your hard work and intelligence, but intelligence is also knowing what you don't know. And then learning from the experience of others. This concept is not practiced whatsoever in China.

You know another interesting thing to note, and this has really been brought to light to me by conversations with many experts, including some acquaintances who work for the U.S. State Department, is that China has virtually zero allies in the world. Their only close ally is North Korea, and even that relationship has been strained quite a bit in recent years. China has some economic ties to its neighbours, but zero real military and cultural allies. Even the countries they have been a bit friendly with recently (e.g. Russia) they have long had major issues with. In fact the only neighbour China has not had major conflicts, either military or politically, within the last 50 years has been North Korea.

Probe
01-29-2016, 08:34 AM
You know another interesting thing to note, and this has really been brought to light to me by conversations with many experts, including some acquaintances who work for the U.S. State Department, is that China has virtually zero allies in the world. Their only close ally is North Korea, and even that relationship has been strained quite a bit in recent years. China has some economic ties to its neighbours, but zero real military and cultural allies. Even the countries they have been a bit friendly with recently (e.g. Russia) they have long had major issues with. In fact the only neighbour China has not had major conflicts, either military or politically, within the last 50 years has been North Korea.

Not really, but sort of. China has a long history of ties to the middle east and Africa because of the silk road. China has spent a lot of money in those places the last 15 years to secure access to natural resources.
The silk road still runs both ways. Rare animal products and drugs are sold widely throughout China by Africans, completely in the open, and on the street.

But, I actually agree with most of what you said. They really don't have any allies that truly matter. Nigerian drug dealers on the streets of CAN and PVG don't exactly make good, strategic allies like the UK or Japan do for the US.

NEDude
01-29-2016, 09:55 AM
Not really, but sort of. China has a long history of ties to the middle east and Africa because of the silk road. China has spent a lot of money in those places the last 15 years to secure access to natural resources.
The silk road still runs both ways. Rare animal products and drugs are sold widely throughout China by Africans, completely in the open, and on the street.

But, I actually agree with most of what you said. They really don't have any allies that truly matter. Nigerian drug dealers on the streets of CAN and PVG don't exactly make good, strategic allies like the UK or Japan do for the US.

But their "friends" in Africa are not exactly happy with the Chinese these days. For all of the inroads the Chinese are trying to make, they are not doing a great job. Most of the countries the Chinese are trying to make investments in are former British colonies and have a long history of doing business with western nations. Many in these nations are not happy with the Chinese way of doing things, and the Chinese are paying far less than the western nations have in the past which is leading to a lot of resentment towards China.

(My source for this is a friend who works for the U.S. State Department. He was stationed in Africa before being stationed in China and this is his area of expertise).

disco inferno
01-29-2016, 07:36 PM
China is a blast? Really? Sitting at a nice western owned cafe enjoying a latte while some peasant is sitting 20 feet away spitting his lungs out is a blast? Listening to car horns all damn day is a blast? Pls after 6 years tell me what I have been missing
Millions of reasonably priced hookers?

altair
01-30-2016, 08:18 PM
Anyone applied to or hear anything about SF Cargo airlines in Shenzhen or 9Air in Guangzhou?

Also if anyone has a study guide or other info on the CAAC ATP written or profiles for the checkride please PM me, I'd greatly appreciate it.

Thanks

CloudSpirit
02-01-2016, 12:04 PM
Anyone applied to or hear anything about SF Cargo airlines in Shenzhen or 9Air in Guangzhou?

Also if anyone has a study guide or other info on the CAAC ATP written or profiles for the checkride please PM me, I'd greatly appreciate it.

Thanks

Forget 9Air, it's a scam. SF might be an OK deal (as things go in China), but be careful with ANY job you contract for over there. It is NOT a long term gig, do not quit your job at home.

READ THE BOOK F.U.D. with download links for the .pdf posted on the first page of this thread before you do ANYTHING. Opinions may vary, but there is plenty of useful information therein from company memos etc. that will give you good insight on what you are getting yourself into.

Be safe!
C.S.

edit:
Here's the link...
Zippyshare.com - Flying Upside Down.pdf (http://www92.zippyshare.com/v/rRE4ARC2/file.html)
[31.77mb Flying Upside Down.pdf]

CloudSpirit
02-01-2016, 12:10 PM
Without further ado, links to videos taken surreptitiously on deck of Check Airmen, a Chief Pilot and other pilots sleeping, smoking and reading below 10,000 on deck. More to come. :eek:

Plus, stay tuned for upcoming discussions of checkrides used to fire expat pilots and other issues like the punishments received for miscommunication with ATC.

Sleeping
1. https://youtu.be/EtVCLTbwD4c
2. https://youtu.be/5V74tUjbwSI
3. https://youtu.be/kVF6-TcWDLE
4. https://youtu.be/NosRlAbFzDA
5. https://youtu.be/l0vAUTxA5o4
6. https://youtu.be/a6K6F2DdG2M

Reading and Smoking
1. https://youtu.be/iGd_3ZiZ-uI
2. https://youtu.be/TNitPjR5hcI
3. https://youtu.be/No5b_QPqUzA

Treat it all for what it's worth. Make your own judgements. This is meant to inform expats of the reality of the deal they are getting themselves into in China. The authors of F.U.D. have their own axes to grind, but good portions of the book were written mindful of objectivity... Still, that may or may not be the case.

Fly safely,
C.S.

Probe
02-01-2016, 10:25 PM
Without further ado, links to videos taken surreptitiously on deck of Check Airmen, a Chief Pilot and other pilots sleeping, smoking and reading below 10,000 on deck. More to come. :eek:

Plus, stay tuned for upcoming discussions of checkrides used to fire expat pilots and other issues like the punishments received for miscommunication with ATC.

Sleeping
1. https://youtu.be/EtVCLTbwD4c
2. https://youtu.be/5V74tUjbwSI
3. https://youtu.be/kVF6-TcWDLE
4. https://youtu.be/NosRlAbFzDA
5. https://youtu.be/l0vAUTxA5o4
6. https://youtu.be/a6K6F2DdG2M

Reading and Smoking
1. https://youtu.be/iGd_3ZiZ-uI
2. https://youtu.be/TNitPjR5hcI
3. https://youtu.be/No5b_QPqUzA

Treat it all for what it's worth. Make your own judgements. This is meant to inform expats of the reality of the deal they are getting themselves into in China. The authors of F.U.D. have their own axes to grind, but good portions of the book were written mindful of objectivity... Still, that may or may not be the case.

Fly safely,
C.S.

I could tell right away the videos are a complete fake. If they were real, all the windows would be covered by red HNA blankets from the cabin. And some newspapers if there were not enough blankets.

No self respecting Chinese airline pilot would allow himself the browning effects of the sun.

I even had a few FO's try to put newspapers on the side windows while taxiing. No kidding.

CloudSpirit
02-02-2016, 02:56 PM
I could tell right away the videos are a complete fake. If they were real, all the windows would be covered by red HNA blankets from the cabin. And some newspapers if there were not enough blankets.

No self respecting Chinese airline pilot would allow himself the browning effects of the sun.

I even had a few FO's try to put newspapers on the side windows while taxiing. No kidding.

Ha, yeah, indeed. I saw plenty of great, anti-professional behavior when I was over there and raised a stink about it. Memos went out and the vent stuffing with napkins stopped, newspapers in the windows stopped, reading and smoking on my flight deck stopped. All it takes is a few writeups in the aircraft log regarding clogged vents and... You can see why I was so popular? Many of the expats there during my tenure followed suit.

However, bear in mind that the pilots in these videos are not FO's. These are mostly videos from line checks and checkrides with a chief pilot; one of them is a regular captain. I need to check back with the expat who sent them to find out who is who exactly.

Of course, these may seem 'no big whoopty' to the layman or casual clickbait. When you realize the professional hazard and lengths the person took to make them, they start to make more sense. If you have operated 'in theatre' they really make sense without explanation.

What you are seeing here are snippets of the hand-me-down behaviors from instructors and authorities that lead to stuffing vents with napkins, keeping newspapers in the windows until 500' on approach, claiming the WX radar will make you go sterile, etc. You can see on one video the 3rd man on deck (the 'student')... I think he is sleeping, but when he IS awake, he's taking note of what passes as acceptable behavior on deck.

When you go to China to fly, you WILL have to fight back against this continental drift of behavior. It is not safe, it is not pleasurable, it is not conducive to smooth operating. You end up with resentful little snots who think they own the world because 'this is how the chief pilot does it' and now you have another hazard of broken CRM on your hands.

Chinese flying is NOT like Western flying. 2 wings and 3 landing gear is where the similarities end. And this is why we wrote F.U.D., why we started this thread, and why we caution pilots who are dazzled by the dollar signs. DO YOUR HOMEWORK. We have made the material available to you, take advantage of it.

C.S.

The Dominican
02-02-2016, 03:58 PM
It's definitely nothing like western flying....., here in the west when pilots take a nap (and ALL of you have done it at one point or another) it stays where it belongs, amongst pilots backing eachother up....., an ******* doesn't pull up his cellphone and post the recording on YouTube...!

All this says a LOT more about western pilots than it does about the Chinese.

captjns
02-02-2016, 04:27 PM
I could tell right away the videos are a complete fake. If they were real, all the windows would be covered by red HNA blankets from the cabin. And some newspapers if there were not enough blankets.

No self respecting Chinese airline pilot would allow himself the browning effects of the sun.

I even had a few FO's try to put newspapers on the side windows while taxiing. No kidding.


You're thinking of the wrong country. It India with the Times of India plastered on every window in the cockpit. And who wrote the Times of India was a worthless rag:D?

NEDude
02-02-2016, 09:59 PM
It's definitely nothing like western flying....., here in the west when pilots take a nap (and ALL of you have done it at one point or another) it stays where it belongs, amongst pilots backing eachother up....., an ******* doesn't pull up his cellphone and post the recording on YouTube...!

All this says a LOT more about western pilots than it does about the Chinese.

Perhaps you have been gone from western flying too long. Yes, we have all needed to catch some shut eye, but in my experience it goes something like this:

Pilot 1 - "Man, I am pretty beat. I need to take a quick nap (or study the overhead panel). Are you okay with that?"

Pilot 2 - "Sure, I will wake you up in a bit."

Pilot 2 - "Thanks a lot. You sure you are okay? Give me about 15 or 20 minutes".

In China its more of pilot 1 passes out and sleeps most of the leg without saying a word to the other pilot.


Also, love the comments about blocking the windows and the vents. It is so common at my airline the flight attendants just bring pillows up to block the side vents in the Airbus. One time I removed it and handed it back to the flight attendant. She promptly put it back in front of the vent. When I removed it again and told her no, she thought I was crazy.

The Dominican
02-03-2016, 01:53 AM
If these were vídeos of a pilot from AA, DAL, UCAL talking a nap or some comments about a pilot from any of these companies bloking the sun (and most pilots do) you would be raising hell about how unprofessional this is....! But because they're Chinese (insert ANY Asian carrier here really) it's perfectly fine to post videos on YouTube for the world to see.....!

It is wrong.....! Regardless of where they are from.

NEDude
02-03-2016, 03:14 AM
If these were vídeos of a pilot from AA, DAL, UCAL talking a nap or some comments about a pilot from any of these companies bloking the sun (and most pilots do) you would be raising hell about how unprofessional this is....! But because they're Chinese (insert ANY Asian carrier here really) it's perfectly fine to post videos on YouTube for the world to see.....!

It is wrong.....! Regardless of where they are from.

I am a little more lenient with this for multiple reasons.

First and foremost is that the Chinese are very much against any outside influence. Any attempts by foreign pilots to point out safety issues or potential violations are dismissed as irrelevant. You are a foreigner and thus do not count. You are not considered a valuable resource and they certainly do not really care about your experience or expertise. All the Chinese carriers care about is there is a warm body in the left seat. (At my company a foreign captain was called in to discuss why he did not follow a first officers instructions even though those instructions were incorrect and a violation of operational procedure. In the company's opinion, disregarding the first officer, even if he is blatantly wrong, is considered bad CRM. Your job, in their mind, is to blindly follow the first officers instructions in order to maintain a harmonious flight deck environment. Clear evidence IMHO they do not care about your experience and expertise). In most western and probably most Asian carriers, if a crew member, regardless of background or nationality, points out recurring problems then those problems are taken seriously. Not so with Chinese carriers. Given the recent uptick in extreme nationalism in China this problem is getting worse, not better. When clear issues are repeatedly ignored, a person is more likely to take extreme measures to get them noticed. If a clear process were in place to address the safety issues, through the company, aviation authority, or pilots union, I would take more issue with posting the videos on Youtube. But the Chinese have made it very clear they do not care about foreigners raising issues of safety.

Second - Youtube is officially banned in China. The consequences of these videos being placed on Youtube are different than they would be in everywhere else in the world. If they were placed on Baidu then it would be a different story.

Probe
02-03-2016, 05:41 AM
I am a little more lenient with this for multiple reasons.

First and foremost is that the Chinese are very much against any outside influence. Any attempts by foreign pilots to point out safety issues or potential violations are dismissed as irrelevant. You are a foreigner and thus do not count. You are not considered a valuable resource and they certainly do not really care about your experience or expertise. All the Chinese carriers care about is there is a warm body in the left seat. (At my company a foreign captain was called in to discuss why he did not follow a first officers instructions even though those instructions were incorrect and a violation of operational procedure. In the company's opinion, disregarding the first officer, even if he is blatantly wrong, is considered bad CRM. Your job, in their mind, is to blindly follow the first officers instructions in order to maintain a harmonious flight deck environment. Clear evidence IMHO they do not care about your experience and expertise). In most western and probably most Asian carriers, if a crew member, regardless of background or nationality, points out recurring problems then those problems are taken seriously. Not so with Chinese carriers. Given the recent uptick in extreme nationalism in China this problem is getting worse, not better. When clear issues are repeatedly ignored, a person is more likely to take extreme measures to get them noticed. If a clear process were in place to address the safety issues, through the company, aviation authority, or pilots union, I would take more issue with posting the videos on Youtube. But the Chinese have made it very clear they do not care about foreigners raising issues of safety.

Second - Youtube is officially banned in China. The consequences of these videos being placed on Youtube are different than they would be in everywhere else in the world. If they were placed on Baidu then it would be a different story.

Well, lets see:

1. If a chinese pilot showed up at your airline in the west, and told you what you were doing was all wrong, how do you think your airline would react?

2. All airlines want "warm bodies" filling the pilot seats. We are just numbers to them, no matter where you work.

3. Chinese censorship, or western political correctness police? Is it really that different?

I believe you are having a wet dream of some mythical perfect western pilot job at a major airline. It is different in Asia. Some ways worse, some ways better.

I work at a mythical perfect airline job. I can't wait to go back to Asia and deal with all the "issues". For me, it was less hassle, and the job satisfaction was far better.

And if you are in China, the paycheck is much higher.

NEDude
02-03-2016, 06:47 AM
Well, lets see:

1. If a chinese pilot showed up at your airline in the west, and told you what you were doing was all wrong, how do you think your airline would react?

2. All airlines want "warm bodies" filling the pilot seats. We are just numbers to them, no matter where you work.

3. Chinese censorship, or western political correctness police? Is it really that different?

I believe you are having a wet dream of some mythical perfect western pilot job at a major airline. It is different in Asia. Some ways worse, some ways better.

I work at a mythical perfect airline job. I can't wait to go back to Asia and deal with all the "issues". For me, it was less hassle, and the job satisfaction was far better.

And if you are in China, the paycheck is much higher.

At every airline I have ever worked for if a crew member brought up a safety issue, it was investigated and followed up with. Nationality of the pilot did not matter. That is absolutely not the case at the airline I fly for in China. There are some common safety issues and SOPs in China that violate well developed global safety standards. When confronted with these facts by anyone who is not Chinese, they are ignored. And I am not just speaking about pilots bringing up concerns either. My present airline routinely dismisses recommendations from Airbus representatives as well. Tell me where else representatives from a manufacturer would be ignored when informing an airline that a certain practice is damaging an aircraft system, or another practice creates a fire hazard? That has happened at my present company.

As for me "having a wet dream of some mythical perfect western pilot job at a major airline", nothing could be further from the truth. I have spent 20 years of my life flying for western airlines, I am well aware there is no such thing. But for me personally I would rather not deal with blatant disregard for globally recognized safety practices, lethal pollution, constant deafening noise, bed bug infested hotels, and questionable food safety. I am ready to get out. Thankfully just today I completed a major step towards the exit.

CloudSpirit
02-05-2016, 08:17 AM
We have vigorous debate. This is good.


1. If a chinese pilot showed up at your airline in the west, and told you what you were doing was all wrong, how do you think your airline would react?

2. All airlines want "warm bodies" filling the pilot seats. We are just numbers to them, no matter where you work.

3. Chinese censorship, or western political correctness police? Is it really that different?

I believe you are having a wet dream of some mythical perfect western pilot job at a major airline. It is different in Asia. Some ways worse, some ways better.

I work at a mythical perfect airline job. I can't wait to go back to Asia and deal with all the "issues". For me, it was less hassle, and the job satisfaction was far better.

And if you are in China, the paycheck is much higher.

I'd like to unpack this a bit, there's a lot in here.
1. If a chinese pilot showed up at your airline in the west...
They day the Chinese can say they invented the aeroplane, invented the jet engine, discovered why square windows on a pressurized vessel don't work, developed CRM and flight deck design... well sir, that day let them come to XYZ airline and lay down the law. Until then, stuffing napkins in vents meant to clear the deck of smoke in an emergent situation WILL NOT FLY.

2. All airlines want "warm bodies"
Thank you for clarifying this for us RE: China. Yet, just because the airline want's a seat filler, that justifies... huh?!? What in the name of grace is being said here? I think every aviator I know would take the insinuation as a pretty big insult...

3. Chinese censorship, or western political correctness police? Is it really that different?
This is an exceptionally dangerous statement, and speaks volumes about you Probe. Can you tell me the websites that are blocked in, say, the UK? France? The US? There is this thing called the "Great Chinese Firewall" and it is real. YES, it is very, VERY different. Come on now.

...if you are in China, the paycheck is much higher.
Tiptoeing around said paycheck to justify such and such is a really bad way to proceed if you are trying to convince people in a debate about what is proper and what is not of a professional arena like the flight deck of a transport category jet that may or may not be carrying your mother in the cabin.

CloudSpirit
02-05-2016, 08:40 AM
The Dominican wrote:

It's definitely nothing like western flying....., here in the west when pilots take a nap (and ALL of you have done it at one point or another) it stays where it belongs, amongst pilots backing eachother up....., an ******* doesn't pull up his cellphone and post the recording on YouTube...!

All this says a LOT more about western pilots than it does about the Chinese.

If these were vídeos of a pilot from AA, DAL, UCAL talking a nap or some comments about a pilot from any of these companies bloking the sun (and most pilots do) you would be raising hell about how unprofessional this is....! But because they're Chinese (insert ANY Asian carrier here really) it's perfectly fine to post videos on YouTube for the world to see.....!

It is wrong.....! Regardless of where they are from.


I'd like to respectfully suggest that you are missing some really important details Dom. While I agree with your statement that posting videos is an exceptionally controversial move, some problems never get solved without meandering into some kind of controversy. (BTW, this individual approached us for help because he preferred to join a group in protest rather than go it himself.)

Imagine for a minute with me here: what would drive someone to take said videos, edit them and post them? What would drive others to write 400(+) pages with company memos, photographic examples and commentary? He is not alone.

So, look at the other side of this for just a mili-second. Flying in Japan is even again very different from Chinese flight decks. The exceptionally detailed approach to flying exhibited by the Japanese is admirable in many ways, annoying in others; but it is a model of airmanship, white flying gloves be damned. And throwing oneself on the sword because of a mistake... I'd like to see a Chinese pilot do that.

No, please do not conflate flying in Japan with flying in China. Worlds apart. Problems deserve criticism and debate which has been sparked here. We appreciate your contribution and do not necessarily disagree with the spirit of some of the points you make.

CloudSpirit
02-05-2016, 08:53 AM
Sleeping
1. https://youtu.be/EtVCLTbwD4c
2. https://youtu.be/5V74tUjbwSI
3. https://youtu.be/kVF6-TcWDLE
4. https://youtu.be/NosRlAbFzDA
5. https://youtu.be/l0vAUTxA5o4
6. https://youtu.be/a6K6F2DdG2M

Reading and Smoking
1. https://youtu.be/iGd_3ZiZ-uI
2. https://youtu.be/TNitPjR5hcI
3. https://youtu.be/No5b_QPqUzA



I'd like to add a reference to this from F.U.D. under appendix J, page xix. Where there's fire, there was smoke, and this feature of flying in China was commented on long before these videos were posted:


Safety Tips
Safety Notice

__________________________________________________
[ 201 4 ] 2 No.
On the strict implementation of the rest system of safety tips

All pilots: Recently a group of employees out vicious accident occurred after the evening meal, resulting in a greater impact. In view of this, the company recently disciplined implementation schedule requirements will conduct surprise checks, special alerts pilots strictly comply with all the requirements of rest system, especially the need clear the following points:

First, the flight crew members to perform tasks before 8 shall not engage in within hours of entertainment, games, parties and other events affecting the normal rest, or severe fatigue state posts to work.

Second, the implementation of flight before the 24- hour non-beverage alcohol pilots and other personnel on duty or drink containing alcohol, and alcohol tests must consciously check the bases with aviation medicine and the Bureau implementation. Alcohol tests do not match, or intentionally obstruct escape alcohol test alcohol testing personnel, depending on the alcohol test will be exceeded, the company will be processed in accordance with the relevant provisions of the alcohol during duty.

Third, in addition to flight mission causes of the day, the pilot no later than 22:30 returns resting place.

In addition, near the end, Tips-duty personal safety of the crew, to comply with traffic rules, not drunk driving, not illegal, while strengthening self-discipline, to prevent participation in sensitive activities as little as possible to participate in group sex parties, to safeguard their lives and property safety.

Hereby Tips

The Dominican
02-07-2016, 11:40 AM
I'd like to respectfully suggest that you are missing some really important details Dom. While I agree with your statement that posting videos is an exceptionally controversial move, some problems never get solved without meandering into some kind of controversy.

Is this about solving problems or simply a double standard when we deal with foreign pilots in general?

FedEx for example...., they had all sorts of problems with CRM and fatigue some years back.., a terrible company culture with regards to operations. Somebody would have posted many videos on YouTube of things that went on in those cockpits that led to the loss of many hulls (problems that as I understand are now under control) and you would have condemned that, even if the intention of the OP was one of solving the problem...!

At the end of the day, pointing a finger at a coalleague and disrespecting him or her by filming them without their consent and posting it on YouTube is wrong and unethical...., like I said on another post, professionalism shouldn't have geographical borders.

Probe
02-07-2016, 01:40 PM
If you don't like working in China, you don't have to do it. Their culture is different.

If the money was the same as in other countries, I would not have gone, or stayed to finish my contract. I also choose to not go to the sandbox, as it is also not for me.

At the end of the day, I am for sale. My former job in China is currently tied for the highest paid job in the contract world.

If you don't like it, don't do it. Better yet, go post this stuff on PPRUNE. There, you will find many kindred spirits.

CloudSpirit
02-07-2016, 04:11 PM
Is this about solving problems or simply a double standard when we deal with foreign pilots in general?

...like I said on another post, professionalism shouldn't have geographical borders.

Some really good points, Dom. But I'd like to suggest first that it depends on the problem we are trying to solve; what paradigm are we working with?

If the problem is, as you imply with the good Fedex example, 'improving something in the way the Chinese do whatever', it's naive for any of us to think that a pebble in the ocean will make any difference. It will not. There is no way that anything that gets posted on some backwater forum somewhere on the internet (including youtube) is going to do anything to change the lumbering beast that is Chinese . In fact, front page photos of tanks running roughshod over students in Tienanmen didn't change anything back in the 90's. So, this point has been made before, recently, and it's good to keep on making it.

But, I reckon if we define the problem as [I]'reaching out to pilots who are on the verge of making a major career decision' and providing the same with INFORMATION [capital I] to work with and make that choice, then your answer becomes yes. We are fighting that fight and we believe it is a worthy cause with no holds barred and no voice censored. Making the move to go work in China as a pilot is exceedingly risky and not a long-term solution, unlike Fedex. I personally believe this point needs to be emphasized, underscored and highlighted in the face of wild advertisements promising grandeur and recruiters who want to blow sunshine up everyone's nether regions.

We keep making the point that we are rendering information available. We keep making the point that pilots need to do their homework before they sign on the dotted line. We keep making the point that YOU ARE PERSONALLY RESPONSIBLE for your actions abroad, especially in a punitive culture like China. Be aware, be forewarned and take advantage of what is being made available. The theatre of operations is no song and dance, proof and example provided.

YES, you are 100% correct that 'professionalism shouldn't have geographical borders.' The unfortunate reality to this declaration is that it is also naive; people do not understand the... shall we call them 'intricacies' of Chinese aviation. We (the F.U.D. brotherhood if you will) have been cataloging those 'intricacies' and making the list available to others who have dollar signs razzle-dazzle-zazzling their eyes so that they might come back to terra firma and take a long, hard look. To take a page from Capt. Probe's playbook, if person XYZ doesn't like what we are doing in our narrative here, that person doesn't have to read this thread or click such-and-whatnot provided link. We are still all adults.

If you don't like working in China, you don't have to do it. Their culture is different.

...

At the end of the day, I am for sale. My former job in China is currently tied for the highest paid job in the contract world.

If you don't like it, don't do it. Better yet, go post this stuff on PPRUNE. There, you will find many kindred spirits.

If we wanted kindred spirits Cap'n, we re-pats would meet up at the pub every second Friday, shoot billiards over a pint and reminisce.

Instead, what we are trying to do, as stated over and over and over in this thread going back 19 pages and 40,000(+) views is that we are looking to inform the uninformed with real-world intel, real-time. Probe, you LOVE China. Great. It's good to hear the opinions of someone who is lockstep with the Chinese with such vigor and conviction that nothing else matters. This is important to hear. It's important for the 40,000(+) views to keep reading how, for some pilots, nothing matters except the bottom line: the money. Risk, health, displacement and culture shock, deterioration of skill/judgement etc. do not matter to you. That is your journey and it's actually fascinating to hear about on some level. But, for others these things do matter. Some may not have been posed the question and so may not realize those things matter as much as they do. A lot of that stuff we take for granted in the West.

Thanks for your input though. It is important to get views from all sides, and (aside from ad hominem) all views should be considered.

Fly safe everyone and if it's your birthday, happy birthday!
C.S.

CloudSpirit
02-07-2016, 04:34 PM
To wit, the following excerpt written by Duke taken from a discussion of QAR's in F.U.D. covers everything I wrote immediately above (latest responses to Dom's and Probe's good points) and should bear witness to the intent of this thread here at APForums:

F.U.D. Page 114
The way QARs are treated (punishment if you bust one) is direct proof that China is the punitive and obedience centric culture I have been talking about all along and will continue pointing out and commenting on as we bump right along through my memory dump herein. Big mystery uncovered! There’s no chance this bell will/can ever be un-rung, so get it out of your head that maybe you could go over to China and be a positive influence for change. There is no way you will ever make a real difference in China (thus the inception for Captain H’s Rule #1 above that I scorn). You are there to fly an airplane, dodge bullets and get out when the time for gettin’ has arrived; you’ll know when that time has come. There is too much inertia behind this cultural MO being that it’s rooted in just over 5000 years of “That’s the way things are done in China.”

Nicole Xiang
02-28-2016, 11:24 PM
All highly payment for working in Chinese Airlines is true. and strict and long screening process is also real.

turbopropulsion
02-29-2016, 01:12 PM
quote -

"BAD POINTS ABOUT LIVING IN SHENZHEN AND OTHER PARTS OF CHINA

1. The OP never talked about driving in China that much. Let me be the one to tell you that these people are some if not the absolute worst drivers on the planet. Esp the female drivers. Its almost like they do not even know they are in a car. Never use blinkers but masters at using the horn.
2. People here generally are slow as hell. Esp the drivers. Pls name one Chinese F1 race car driver????
3. Accidents ala plenty. Totally moronic driving skills. There is a reason more chinese drive bicycles than cars, you can kill less people that way.
4. SZ is not really polluted but Beijing, Tianjin, other places are HORRIBLE. That stuff really scares me. Ironically sometimes there is no pollution in BJ. Esp when there is an important summit going on. The call it the APEC blue
5. Manners do not exist. Forget about people holding the door. Spitting here drives me nuts. Totally disgusting. The loud talking will drive you insane.The word courteous and considerate is nonexistant here.
6. Forget about manners while driving. Its insane the stuff i have seen.
7. China is getting expensive.
8. Be careful where and what you eat. You can get very ill. I would NEVER eat the food off the vendors in the street.
9. Police are VERY lazy here. Clowns with uniforms. But in some ways its much better than in America which IMHO is turning into a police state.
10. There are many fake things. Be careful as the liquor your drinking could be fake
11. Banking here is a complete headache. The OP was incorrect about sending money. As foreigners we can do as much as we want. There is NO LIMIT. However you must show your tax receipts from the company, your passport, your contract and as of 2015 your salary slip. I have sent 140,000 USD at one time back home and never a problem. But be prepared to spend atleast one hour. Also many times in China the lazy workers will pass the buck so you need to be forceful with what you want.
12. Noise. These people have no idea what volume control is. Take for example there walkie talkies, their ATMS, when they talk on the phone, the speaker in the cockpit, all have only 2 settings for these morons. OFF and LOUD
13. The people can be very annoying. There is a good joke. What is the difference between a racist and tourist in China? TWO WEEKS!!!"


And you wonder why Americans get a bad rep for being awful travelers? What did you expect? It's China. Of course things are different. Why do you have to compare everything?

NEDude
02-29-2016, 03:11 PM
quote -

"BAD POINTS ABOUT LIVING IN SHENZHEN AND OTHER PARTS OF CHINA

1. The OP never talked about driving in China that much. Let me be the one to tell you that these people are some if not the absolute worst drivers on the planet. Esp the female drivers. Its almost like they do not even know they are in a car. Never use blinkers but masters at using the horn.
2. People here generally are slow as hell. Esp the drivers. Pls name one Chinese F1 race car driver????
3. Accidents ala plenty. Totally moronic driving skills. There is a reason more chinese drive bicycles than cars, you can kill less people that way.
4. SZ is not really polluted but Beijing, Tianjin, other places are HORRIBLE. That stuff really scares me. Ironically sometimes there is no pollution in BJ. Esp when there is an important summit going on. The call it the APEC blue
5. Manners do not exist. Forget about people holding the door. Spitting here drives me nuts. Totally disgusting. The loud talking will drive you insane.The word courteous and considerate is nonexistant here.
6. Forget about manners while driving. Its insane the stuff i have seen.
7. China is getting expensive.
8. Be careful where and what you eat. You can get very ill. I would NEVER eat the food off the vendors in the street.
9. Police are VERY lazy here. Clowns with uniforms. But in some ways its much better than in America which IMHO is turning into a police state.
10. There are many fake things. Be careful as the liquor your drinking could be fake
11. Banking here is a complete headache. The OP was incorrect about sending money. As foreigners we can do as much as we want. There is NO LIMIT. However you must show your tax receipts from the company, your passport, your contract and as of 2015 your salary slip. I have sent 140,000 USD at one time back home and never a problem. But be prepared to spend atleast one hour. Also many times in China the lazy workers will pass the buck so you need to be forceful with what you want.
12. Noise. These people have no idea what volume control is. Take for example there walkie talkies, their ATMS, when they talk on the phone, the speaker in the cockpit, all have only 2 settings for these morons. OFF and LOUD
13. The people can be very annoying. There is a good joke. What is the difference between a racist and tourist in China? TWO WEEKS!!!"


And you wonder why Americans get a bad rep for being awful travelers? What did you expect? It's China. Of course things are different. Why do you have to compare everything?

It is not just the Americans that complain about this stuff in China. Just about all expats do. In fact many of the well travelled Chinese complain about these things too.

NEDude
02-29-2016, 04:18 PM
Withdrawn....................

airspeed1974
03-01-2016, 03:22 AM
quote - "BAD POINTS ABOUT LIVING IN SHENZHEN AND OTHER PARTS OF CHINA 1. The OP never talked about driving in China that much. Let me be the one to tell you that these people are some if not the absolute worst drivers on the planet. Esp the female drivers. Its almost like they do not even know they are in a car. Never use blinkers but masters at using the horn. 2. People here generally are slow as hell. Esp the drivers. Pls name one Chinese F1 race car driver???? 3. Accidents ala plenty. Totally moronic driving skills. There is a reason more chinese drive bicycles than cars, you can kill less people that way. 4. SZ is not really polluted but Beijing, Tianjin, other places are HORRIBLE. That stuff really scares me. Ironically sometimes there is no pollution in BJ. Esp when there is an important summit going on. The call it the APEC blue 5. Manners do not exist. Forget about people holding the door. Spitting here drives me nuts. Totally disgusting. The loud talking will drive you insane.The word courteous and considerate is nonexistant here. 6. Forget about manners while driving. Its insane the stuff i have seen. 7. China is getting expensive. 8. Be careful where and what you eat. You can get very ill. I would NEVER eat the food off the vendors in the street. 9. Police are VERY lazy here. Clowns with uniforms. But in some ways its much better than in America which IMHO is turning into a police state. 10. There are many fake things. Be careful as the liquor your drinking could be fake 11. Banking here is a complete headache. The OP was incorrect about sending money. As foreigners we can do as much as we want. There is NO LIMIT. However you must show your tax receipts from the company, your passport, your contract and as of 2015 your salary slip. I have sent 140,000 USD at one time back home and never a problem. But be prepared to spend atleast one hour. Also many times in China the lazy workers will pass the buck so you need to be forceful with what you want. 12. Noise. These people have no idea what volume control is. Take for example there walkie talkies, their ATMS, when they talk on the phone, the speaker in the cockpit, all have only 2 settings for these morons. OFF and LOUD 13. The people can be very annoying. There is a good joke. What is the difference between a racist and tourist in China? TWO WEEKS!!!" And you wonder why Americans get a bad rep for being awful travelers? What did you expect? It's China. Of course things are different. Why do you have to compare everything?

This has nothing to do with Americans getting a bad rap. I say it like it is and anyone who has lived there would agree

CloudSpirit
05-29-2016, 12:29 PM
Duke checking in here at FL340, smooth ride.

I wanted to respond to someone who was mentioning something about racism in our approach a while back, and I'll leave the names out to be polite. Anyhow, The Dominican was saying something about us being racists because of this and that; while our operative at the time did a good job refuting his claims, I wanted to chime in with the following video that ought to speak for itself.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BoWltMDoBT0

Don't say we didn't tell ya so, but we told ya so.

CloudSpirit
05-29-2016, 12:42 PM
Now, I would like to add some quick comments for Mr. turbopropulsion; firstly, thank you for checking in and offering your comments. We encourage everyone to add their two cents here, whether they agree with us or disagree.

You see, It's really important to get both sides of the fence (as it were) to offer potential expats balanced INFORMATION before they make their leap into contract work. THIS is the reason for the book F.U.D. and the reason for this thread: INFORMATION. It may be positive information, or it may not be positive. I won't tolerate sunshine. Keep it real, and it looks like you have. But, here's the problem:

quote -
1. The OP never talked about driving in China that much. Let me be the one to tell you...


You didn't read the book, sir. This is a prerequisite before posting in my thread. Please rewind to the first page and download you some .pdf file for reading tonight before beadie-bye from the zippy link. Then come back if you want and comment all you like! The OP HAS talked plenty about driving in China, and you will see it all in the opener to the book.

BTW, F.U.D. stands for Flying Upside Down. Some have had trouble with that for some reason... :rolleyes:

Happy trails folks, thanks for reading the book and thread, and have safe adventures wherever it is you bore holes in the sky!

~~DUKE~~

Alphafloor
05-30-2016, 09:29 PM
Millions of reasonably priced hookers?
LMFAO! at least I won't have any problem getting someone to "iron my shirts" before I go to work😀

atpcliff
05-31-2016, 02:12 AM
I know a guy who flies smaller jets and lives in Shenzhen. He really likes it a lot, and has moved their permanently. He married a Chinese girl.

The top pay is at least base of $30K/month.

I would consider China, but I'm over 50, and passing the physical sounds very, very dicey, so I didn't apply.

The Pilot Shortage is only going to get worse over the next few years, so the pay and conditions can only go up...

mexipilot84
08-22-2016, 01:17 PM
What's the word on Hainan for 737 CAs?

I've been lurking the China jobs a bit and read the excellent FUD book. I've spent some time in Asia when I was in the military granted never in China, but can see dealing with everyday things in China looks like a nightmare compared to Japan or Korea. While money sounds tempting(doesn't it always) not fully convinced on it yet.

I'm guessing the medicals are astronaut medicals in less than desirable conditions?

For those of you that commute are they making your off days as travel days?

NEDude
08-23-2016, 10:56 AM
What's the word on Hainan for 737 CAs?

I've been lurking the China jobs a bit and read the excellent FUD book. I've spent some time in Asia when I was in the military granted never in China, but can see dealing with everyday things in China looks like a nightmare compared to Japan or Korea. While money sounds tempting(doesn't it always) not fully convinced on it yet.

I'm guessing the medicals are astronaut medicals in less than desirable conditions?

For those of you that commute are they making your off days as travel days?

I do not know why people refer to them as astronaut medicals. They may be in terms of the stuff that they do, but certainly not to the standards. I am a good 20lbs overweight and have never had issues passing the medical. I know for a fact there is a pilot operating in China who is obese and has had gastric bypass surgery. In fact guys who are in great shape and and healthy eaters seem to have a harder time than guys who are a little out of shape. The standards are based on 18 year old guys who have lived on rice, oily noodles and cigarettes their entire lives. Healthy eaters who get good exercise will have issues with heart rates that are too slow and creatine levels that are too high for the Chinese standards.

And yes, some of the hospitals can be filthy. When I was sitting and waiting with the radioactive dye pumping through my system I was in a hallway on a dirty bench with cigarette buts and other refuse all over the floor. Not exactly sanitary. Often where you get the blood drawn will have dried blood all over the armrests.

When I was on a commuting contract I had to commute on days off. I had to be ready to work early morning on day one of the four weeks, and I most likely would be assigned a very late trip on the last day of my four weeks. So Personally I lost three days, sometimes four, of my off time with the commute.

tomgoodman
08-23-2016, 12:25 PM
Maybe a dirty exam room is the physical screening: if you don't get sick within 24 hours, you must be immune to all diseases. :D

mexipilot84
08-23-2016, 01:30 PM
I do not know why people refer to them as astronaut medicals. They may be in terms of the stuff that they do, but certainly not to the standards. I am a good 20lbs overweight and have never had issues passing the medical. I know for a fact there is a pilot operating in China who is obese and has had gastric bypass surgery. In fact guys who are in great shape and and healthy eaters seem to have a harder time than guys who are a little out of shape. The standards are based on 18 year old guys who have lived on rice, oily noodles and cigarettes their entire lives. Healthy eaters who get good exercise will have issues with heart rates that are too slow and creatine levels that are too high for the Chinese standards.



And yes, some of the hospitals can be filthy. When I was sitting and waiting with the radioactive dye pumping through my system I was in a hallway on a dirty bench with cigarette buts and other refuse all over the floor. Not exactly sanitary. Often where you get the blood drawn will have dried blood all over the armrests.



When I was on a commuting contract I had to commute on days off. I had to be ready to work early morning on day one of the four weeks, and I most likely would be assigned a very late trip on the last day of my four weeks. So Personally I lost three days, sometimes four, of my off time with the commute.



When I was doing a pilot medical in Mexico when the economy took a dump, it literally felt like an astronaut medical that's why I refer it like that. Full medical evaluation from cardio, dental, vision, blood, psycho eval. Kinda felt like when I went to MEPS when I enlisted in the military. Just saw disqualification for odd normal things like cavities in your teeth or erupted wisdom teeth. Kinda figured China to be the same.

Kinda figured commuting would cut into your off days, I guess if you had a 4weeks on 4 weeks off it wouldn't be so bad I guess except for the eagerness to get back stateside.

EMBskillz
08-23-2016, 02:37 PM
What's the word on Hainan for 737 CAs?

I've been lurking the China jobs a bit and read the excellent FUD book. I've spent some time in Asia when I was in the military granted never in China, but can see dealing with everyday things in China looks like a nightmare compared to Japan or Korea. While money sounds tempting(doesn't it always) not fully convinced on it yet.

I'm guessing the medicals are astronaut medicals in less than desirable conditions?

For those of you that commute are they making your off days as travel days?

Bro,
You have Delta in the profile pic. Why in the world would you want to work in China? If you aspire Delta then China seems like a step backward. Just curious. I havent figured out why people want to fly in a country where you dont have bill of rights protection.

mexipilot84
08-23-2016, 05:47 PM
Bro,

You have Delta in the profile pic. Why in the world would you want to work in China? If you aspire Delta then China seems like a step backward. Just curious. I havent figured out why people want to fly in a country where you dont have bill of rights protection.



Yeah DL would be the aspiration, that's a shot from my ramp rat days years ago at the big DL.

But like all trying to build faster PIC time in the 737. My charter outfit now makes it hard to do so at 20-30hrs a month. So just something I was exploring, not a definite thing I'm convinced in doing just yet. Have to weigh in QOL life vs attainability of the overall goal. Definitely not chasing it for the money. That's why it's nice to get the dirty from guys who are there or have been there and if it was worth the time and aggravation.

NEDude
08-23-2016, 08:14 PM
Maybe a dirty exam room is the physical screening: if you don't get sick within 24 hours, you must be immune to all diseases. :D

That must be it, you have cracked the code my friend! :D

MarmolBlanco
08-23-2016, 08:19 PM
Yeah DL would be the aspiration, that's a shot from my ramp rat days years ago at the big DL.

But like all trying to build faster PIC time in the 737. My charter outfit now makes it hard to do so at 20-30hrs a month. So just something I was exploring, not a definite thing I'm convinced in doing just yet. Have to weigh in QOL life vs attainability of the overall goal. Definitely not chasing it for the money. That's why it's nice to get the dirty from guys who are there or have been there and if it was worth the time and aggravation.

In case you are interested in building up your flight experience, did you consider central and south america?

Kinda OT but... I can talk about what I see/know/experience here where I live, in Argentina: requirements for FOs are high (First Class CPL required, and that license asks for 900 hs logged), wages are decent (around 2500 US dolars/month) and you dont have to pay for your type rating.
I dont know the specifics because Im not currently employed, nor do I have enough flight hours but I`ve recently spoken to a guy flying for AU (Austral) and he is logging around 400 hs per year (in a E190). Thats not much, but I think it has -a lot- to do with the fact that the airlines hired many pilots in recent years and its now overpopulated.
In AR I would expect to get slightly more hours because the fleet is expanding and therefore there is less overpopulation of pilots. Plus, you get to fly the 737.
Only problem might be getting into, because networking is really important, but youns you are in, you can have a decent QoL (better than Chine, and maybe better than certain areas of Mexico), with a medium to high salary and the opportunity to fly the aircraft you want to.
As for other airlines, I know that there are several 737 operators in Brazil and Centra America. Requirements in the region tend to be low (Argentina is pretty much an exception), and Lan Chile is currently asking for "at least 200 hs", so you would not have problems with that.
From what you said, I assume you were in the military, but I can really say if military experience is preferred or not (it is not, for sure, here in Arg, but might be in other countries).
Even though this was surely an OT, it might help you. I hope it does.

Best regards,

Marmol.

Tfgm
08-25-2016, 09:33 AM
Hi, take in consideration that if you want to work at AR you have to be an argentinian citizen.

mexipilot84
08-25-2016, 11:47 AM
Hi, take in consideration that if you want to work at AR you have to be an argentinian citizen.



That goes for most Latin American countries. Except Panama, chile and taca operators at some point.

skypine27
08-25-2016, 12:25 PM
FDX pilot who has been based in Hong Kong checking in:

(Yes FDX is the last US airline to still have pilots based in foreign domiciles, ours are Hong Kong and Köln)

Hong Kong is a foul dirty noisy city that reminds me of NYC without the good Italian food. And Hong Kong is waaaaaay ahead of any actual Chinese city I've spent time in.

We layover a lot in Guangzhou and Shanghai and granted a layover in a nice hotel is not the same as living there....even a layover in a nice hotel was enough to make me realize you'd have to
1. pay me a staggering amount of money
2. give me a staggering amount of time off so I could escape to the Philippines and Thailand every month

to live in either of those places.

Haven't been to BJ yet but I imagine I'd hate it too.

Lucky8888
08-25-2016, 04:56 PM
Sounds like you just hate China. That's OK. It's your opinion. For others, China can be a great place if one takes the time to learn the culture. Obviously, that doesn't suit you.

NEDude
08-25-2016, 09:50 PM
Sounds like you just hate China. That's OK. It's your opinion. For others, China can be a great place if one takes the time to learn the culture. Obviously, that doesn't suit you.

Just because you take the time to learn and experience the culture does not mean you will always like it. China taught me that! China can be a great place if you love hazardous pollution, questionable food safety, oppressive censorship, masses of people spitting all over the place, and constant honking of car horns. Three years of that was enough for me.

Oops, I said something I should not have. Now I must go to my team leader, who will consult with the big leader, who must report to the powerful leader. The three of them will meet with the big powerful leader to discuss my punishment, which will be published for all the company to see so I can get the requisite public shaming. How dare I upset the harmony...

NEDude
08-26-2016, 02:32 AM
FDX pilot who has been based in Hong Kong checking in:

(Yes FDX is the last US airline to still have pilots based in foreign domiciles, ours are Hong Kong and Köln)

Hong Kong is a foul dirty noisy city that reminds me of NYC without the good Italian food. And Hong Kong is waaaaaay ahead of any actual Chinese city I've spent time in.

We layover a lot in Guangzhou and Shanghai and granted a layover in a nice hotel is not the same as living there....even a layover in a nice hotel was enough to make me realize you'd have to
1. pay me a staggering amount of money
2. give me a staggering amount of time off so I could escape to the Philippines and Thailand every month

to live in either of those places.

Haven't been to BJ yet but I imagine I'd hate it too.

You should try Chongqing, Harbin, Changchun, Haikou, and some of the other lesser known places...

EMBskillz
08-27-2016, 06:01 PM
Sounds like you just hate China. That's OK. It's your opinion. For others, China can be a great place if one takes the time to learn the culture. Obviously, that doesn't suit you.

YGTBFSM. That's hilarious. I definitely do not want to learn the culture. I like it fine here in the USA, thanks. The bros I knew that relocated to China all hated the US because they were mysogonistic and bad with women and moving there seemed to solve all their problems, lol.

MarmolBlanco
08-27-2016, 06:20 PM
That goes for most Latin American countries. Except Panama, chile and taca operators at some point.

Really? I`ve never seen that requirement in airlines like LAN Chile. It only asks for knowledge in Spanish.

Lucky8888
08-28-2016, 04:39 PM
YGTBFSM. That's hilarious. I definitely do not want to learn the culture. I like it fine here in the USA, thanks. The bros I knew that relocated to China all hated the US because they were mysogonistic and bad with women and moving there seemed to solve all their problems, lol.

To each their own.

Check 6
09-01-2016, 02:58 PM
YGTBFSM. That's hilarious. I definitely do not want to learn the culture. I like it fine here in the USA, thanks. The bros I knew that relocated to China all hated the US because they were mysogonistic and bad with women and moving there seemed to solve all their problems, lol.

You sir are what is called an ugly American. Don't want to learn the culture? It's only 4000 years old, so I'm sure it's not very interesting. There's a big world out there, some of it very cool. To learn another culture doesn't make you an anti American or misogynistic, it makes you well rounded. But feel free to stay at the mall and the local chick fil la :rolleyes:. China has a huge number of issues. But that doesn't make the culture less interesting.
And by the way, some of the hottest women in the world are in Shanghai...lol:D:D

Typhoonpilot
09-01-2016, 05:31 PM
You sir are what is called an ugly American. Don't want to learn the culture? It's only 4000 years old, so I'm sure it's not very interesting. There's a big world out there, some of it very cool. To learn another culture doesn't make you an anti American or misogynistic, it makes you well rounded. But feel free to stay at the mall and the local chick fil la. China has a huge number of issues. But that doesn't make the culture less interesting.
And by the way, some of the hottest women in the world are in Shanghai...lol


Sorry, but the current culture of most of the people in mainland China is not 4000 or even 5000 years old. It is the Communist culture that started in the 1930s. It is born of the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution and it is despicable.

The only way you can see the Chinese culture that you speak of is to leave mainland China and go to places like Taiwan, Hong Kong, and Singapore where they were not ruined by Communism and the cult of Mao. That said, even those countries have been altered by foreign influences over the last few hundred years.

So really, the only way to see real Chinese culture is to build a time machine and go back to sometime before the late 1800s in mainland China :)

......and you should change the last sentence to "some of the hottest and most materialistic women in the world are in Shanghai :D


TP

The Dominican
09-01-2016, 05:38 PM
There are archeological sites in China and all over Asia where they have found cookware and utensils that date from 8000 to 9000 years BC....! That is 10 to 11 thousand years from the modern age......! From ink, to construction methods, to the ability to harness the power of water..., to the food we eat today, all has its roots in Asian civilization, Where do you think the Romans learned the technique to make the aqueduct? I have a very good friend of mine that is a chef and he always says that everyone eats Chinese food and don't even know it....., every time you cross a bridge, every time you use plumbing, every time you use garden tools, every time a ship crosses the Panama Canal....., all Chinese inventions! We shouldn't be so easily dismissive of other cultures, that is one of the western greatest mistakes.

Turbosina
09-01-2016, 07:24 PM
There are archeological sites in China and all over Asia where they have found cookware and utensils that date from 8000 to 9000 years BC....! That is 10 to 11 thousand years from the modern age......! From ink, to construction methods, to the ability to harness the power of water..., to the food we eat today, all has its roots in Asian civilization, Where do you think the Romans learned the technique to make the aqueduct? I have a very good friend of mine that is a chef and he always says that everyone eats Chinese food and don't even know it....., every time you cross a bridge, every time you use plumbing, every time you use garden tools, every time a ship crosses the Panama Canal....., all Chinese inventions! We shouldn't be so easily dismissive of other cultures, that is one of the western greatest mistakes.

All that is great, but it doesn't make Beijing's toxic stew any more breathable. Nor does it make the incessant hawking of phlegm more tolerable, or the utter lack of personal space more endurable. But most of all, those millennia of culture will not excuse your most heinous crime in Chinese eyes: being a gweilo. Very few Westerners ever feel truly comfortable there, and essentially none are ever treated as Chinese, no matter how many dialects they learn or how long they dwell in the country.

I'm not saying one culture is superior to the other. But as a Westerner, I found Japan far easier to live in than China. In Japan, while gaijin are perceived about the same as gweilos in China, at least the society you are allowed to see is one of politeness and grace. China? Quite the opposite. You couldn't pay me enough to live there again.

Although the comment about the Shanghai girls is right on... But give me a Seoul girl any day of the week and twice on Saturdays ;)

Oooo
09-01-2016, 10:27 PM
There are archeological sites in China and all over Asia where they have found cookware and utensils that date from 8000 to 9000 years BC....! That is 10 to 11 thousand years from the modern age......! From ink, to construction methods, to the ability to harness the power of water..., to the food we eat today, all has its roots in Asian civilization, Where do you think the Romans learned the technique to make the aqueduct? I have a very good friend of mine that is a chef and he always says that everyone eats Chinese food and don't even know it....., every time you cross a bridge, every time you use plumbing, every time you use garden tools, every time a ship crosses the Panama Canal....., all Chinese inventions! We shouldn't be so easily dismissive of other cultures, that is one of the western greatest mistakes.
Well they really dropped the ball in the last century, they stopped innovating and started copying!

The Dominican
09-02-2016, 04:09 AM
Well they really dropped the ball in the last century, they stopped innovating and started copying!

Right....., 209 billion dollars on R&D..., 2.1% of GDP..., they are spending very close to the same amount that the US 270 billion 2.7% of GDP:rolleyes:

NEDude
09-03-2016, 01:03 AM
Having archaeological sites that are thousands of years old is very different than having a culture that is several thousands of years old. Modern Chinese culture is nowhere near 4,000 years old. The Communist revolution, Great Leap Forward and Cultural Revolution has destroyed the last vestiges of the ancient culture of "China". The Chinese are fond of picking and choosing their history as well, in one sentence they will tell you about being an ancient country, in the next they will insist they have only been around since 1949 and are still learning how to do things. I reiterate, learning about a culture does not always mean you will love that culture. And if learning about the culture is your real priority, by most accounts Taiwan is a far better place to learn about the culture than the mainland is.

Totally agree with Turbosina - regardless of their historical contributions to human development, the pollution, overcrowding, spitting, constant blaring of car horns, lack of food safety all make living in China intolerable for most people, even a great number of the Chinese.

As for good looking women, I will take the Scandinavians over Asians any day. Good thing I live and work in Scandinavia now!

NEDude
09-03-2016, 01:27 AM
There are archeological sites in China and all over Asia where they have found cookware and utensils that date from 8000 to 9000 years BC....! That is 10 to 11 thousand years from the modern age......! From ink, to construction methods, to the ability to harness the power of water..., to the food we eat today, all has its roots in Asian civilization, Where do you think the Romans learned the technique to make the aqueduct? I have a very good friend of mine that is a chef and he always says that everyone eats Chinese food and don't even know it....., every time you cross a bridge, every time you use plumbing, every time you use garden tools, every time a ship crosses the Panama Canal....., all Chinese inventions! We shouldn't be so easily dismissive of other cultures, that is one of the western greatest mistakes.

There archaeological sites in Europe, Africa and the Americas that are that old and far older. There human remains and tools found in Britain that are over 400,000 years old. Does that make British culture 400,000 years old?

I would also be interested in knowing how the Chinese from 2,500 BCE were able to time travel to 40,000 BCE in France to teach them how to make ink for the cave paintings...

The Dominican
09-03-2016, 01:13 PM
I would also be interested in knowing how the Chinese from 2,500 BCE were able to time travel to 40,000 BCE in France to teach them how to make ink for the cave paintings...

That's not ink brainiac:rolleyes:

At not point I said China was torelable since this is a subjective matter....., I know a lot of pilots that are having a great time there...., all I said is that to underestimate this (or any culture) is the greatest western mistake.

I know a lot of people that think that Memphis and Detroit are intolerable....;)

NEDude
09-03-2016, 09:47 PM
That's not ink brainiac:rolleyes:

At not point I said China was torelable since this is a subjective matter....., I know a lot of pilots that are having a great time there...., all I said is that to underestimate this (or any culture) is the greatest western mistake.

I know a lot of people that think that Memphis and Detroit are intolerable....;)

Tell that to the many art historians and archeologists who refer to it as ink. Also the majority of them claim that modern ink used for writing developed around the same time in both China and Egypt.

As for China itself, everyone has different tastes. Some people love pollution, dodging loogies, oppressive human rights, constant deafening noise and wondering if the food they are eating is actually safe. Good for those who love that. I can tell you after three years in China I am fed up with it. Of the 60 or so expats at my airline, I met only two guys who actually liked China. Most hated it but were willing to tolerate it for 3-5 years for the money. Occasionally we would get a guy who would come in and within two months was miserable enough to be trying to get out already.

I maintain that the best indicator of what modern China is really like is to look at the fact that Chinese people are clamouring for opportunities to get out. If the Chinese do not even like their own country, I think the odds of a foreigner liking it will be pretty small. And the Chinese airlines are not paying as much as they are because China is such a desirable place.

Obviously we have to agree to disagree here. I did not like China one bit. I made good money while I was there and it has set me up nicely financially. But overall they were the most miserable three years of my life and I am willing to tell anyone who will listen how I felt about China.

Whip Whitaker
09-04-2016, 07:36 AM
Can we end the p*ssing match please?

Grumble
09-06-2016, 01:22 AM
Right....., 209 billion dollars on R&D..., 2.1% of GDP..., they are spending very close to the same amount that the US 270 billion 2.7% of GDP:rolleyes:

If by R&D you mean corporate espionage.

Probe
09-07-2016, 02:36 AM
This is turning into Pprune. If you don't like China, don't go. Personally, I will be skipping the contract jobs in Detroit and the south side of ORD.

Grumble
09-07-2016, 06:40 PM
This is turning into Pprune. If you don't like China, don't go. Personally, I will be skipping the contract jobs in Detroit and the south side of ORD.

Especially don't go if you're not a white male.

Air China warns London visitors: Avoid Indian, Pakistani, black areas Air China magazine warns London visitors to avoid ethnic minority areas (http://www.cnbc.com/id/103919850)

"Cultural difference" is apparently a euphemism for "tolerated racism."

Aurora8
09-07-2016, 10:14 PM
Apologies if I missed it, but a couple of Aussie friends of mine say the Chinese medical is a bit tough (and the Aussie medical is tougher than the US)...?

Aurora8
09-07-2016, 10:23 PM
Apologies if I missed it, but a couple of Aussie friends of mine say the Chinese medical is a bit tough (and the Aussie medical is tougher than the US)...?

Never mind! Just found the China medical forum... :o

rollingscissors
12-17-2016, 04:47 PM
Modern Chinese culture is nowhere near 4,000 years old. The Communist revolution, Great Leap Forward and Cultural Revolution has destroyed the last vestiges of the ancient culture of "China".

Totally agree with Turbosina - regardless of their historical contributions to human development, the pollution, overcrowding, spitting, constant blaring of car horns, lack of food safety all make living in China intolerable for most people, even a great number of the Chinese.


YGBMFSM! What the two of you said holds true in my experience at a large 737 operator in Fujian Province.

The culture also affects how the leaders do their jobs and how they (not!) train pilots to operate on the line. Memorize the manuals, fly like a robot and do not talk about bad events or be severely punished.

One pilot here has a doomsday clock counting down at "ten seconds to midnight" meaning a crash. He thought they about bought the farm when BOTH pilots on a flight managed to kill BOTH IRUs on a plane, couldn't land on the first approach, but landed on the second one. No more lucky breaks are in the queue. Hey, what I just said was strictly forbidden by the leaders.

What is good? They pay on time.

Here, read another document about flying in China:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1iyM5k8m8f0fZCmmJFMg-LLB_t1w2LDt9mltAGA6mUQE/edit?usp=drivesdk

The Dominican
12-18-2016, 08:25 PM
Guys there are horror stories at every gig, also to group all companies as a single parameter as in "working in China" is just as ridiculous as saying that working in Delta and Kallita is one of the same....!

A lot of these stories are true...., but you get bad experiences in the US or Europe too...., a friend went trough hell at one of the majors in the US..., fired unceremoniously and had to spend half of his retirement and years in court to get his job back just for them to start messing with him again lately..., just because one particular manager doesn't like him...!

The same way there are people that have a tough time in China...., there are others (the majority actually) that are happier than a pig in...., Well, you know how the say goes!

Chyna
12-19-2016, 07:55 AM
Beware flying in China.

There are lots of ads with big money out there; the reality of living, working and in flying in China far outweighs the benefits in this humble pilot's opinion. Remember, if it's too good to be true, yadda yadda; there's a reason the offers are so exorbitant.

In the interest of disseminating information to fellow aviators, a few friends and I have put together a comprehensive document of the recent experiences of various expat pilots in China from a number of sources, anecdotal exchanges to company memos. Most of the stories circle around the toilet bowl that is Tianjin Airlines, but there are others in the mix as well. Suffice it to say, most of what is related applies to Hainan Group in general (of which mighty gorgon Tianjin is a wriggling tentacle) and can be extrapolated out from there to China in general as the reader sees fit.

Flying Upside Down:
Zippyshare.com - Flying Upside Down.pdf (http://www92.zippyshare.com/v/rRE4ARC2/file.html)
[31.77mb Flying Upside Down.pdf]

There are just too many stories to tell to be honest, but this should give people interested in the theater of ops a good taste of what it's like. Friends don't let friends fly China, and any aviator is a compatriot in this matter of grave significance.

Others who have stories, please do share; or send a PM so we can add what you have to share in our next volume if you don't want to post here. Comments of disbelief welcome; keep the flames to a minimum (we already know it's you, China); this document was prepared for free, accept no imitations.

干杯!
(Gānbēi)

Best reading , informative and entertaining !

NEDude
12-19-2016, 10:09 AM
Guys there are horror stories at every gig, also to group all companies as a single parameter as in "working in China" is just as ridiculous as saying that working in Delta and Kallita is one of the same....!

A lot of these stories are true...., but you get bad experiences in the US or Europe too...., a friend went trough hell at one of the majors in the US..., fired unceremoniously and had to spend half of his retirement and years in court to get his job back just for them to start messing with him again lately..., just because one particular manager doesn't like him...!

The same way there are people that have a tough time in China...., there are others (the majority actually) that are happier than a pig in...., Well, you know how the say goes!

Interesting. It seemed to me that the vast majority of guys I knew in China were simply tolerating it for the pay check, and a large minority hated it, but felt trapped by their large pay and age. Of the 60 or so expats I knew at my airline, only two or three actually enjoyed it. Most guys I ran across at other airlines simply tolerated it at best as well.

To each their own though.

The Dominican
12-19-2016, 10:50 PM
What does "simply tolerating it for the paycheck" even means? I know a lot of guys at Ucal..., UPS...., SWA..., Fedex of whom you can say the same.....!

We are a bunch of whiners and nothing is ever good....!

NEDude
12-20-2016, 01:34 PM
What does "simply tolerating it for the paycheck" even means? I know a lot of guys at Ucal..., UPS...., SWA..., Fedex of whom you can say the same.....!

We are a bunch of whiners and nothing is ever good....!

It means exactly what it says. More specifically it means that you are resigned to inhaling toxic pollution and second hand smoke, eating food that might kill you, dodging spit bombs, going deaf from the constant noise, and all the other crap that China throws at you simply because the money is so good and your options may be limited.

At the two airlines in the city where I was based, very few of the guys were in their 20s, 30s or even 40s. Most were in their mid to late 50s and had no other viable options back in their home countries after losing their jobs during the last downturn from 2008-2012. China is a means to an ends when it comes to being able to stash some cash in their last few years before retirement. There were a handful of younger guys who came to China to pay off debts, or to quickly build a nest egg while they were young, but they represented less than 20% of the guys I saw in China. And none of the younger guys planned on making China a career, they all planned on doing one three year tour of duty and getting out.

The Dominican
12-20-2016, 03:34 PM
What expat job is meant as a career??? Recently spent some time with friends that work there..., Went out with them in Guangzhou to dinner and drinks and got their perspective about the job...., i'm 52 and all of them were younger than me. They are pretty content and everywhere we went, the food was great and I enjoyed my time there...., there are two sides to every story!

The preference would be to make a career at your home country, no doubt...., but if you have to expatriate for any reason and I would be given the choice of the ME or China...., I would go to China.

Is not for you! I get it...., but to say that everyone hates it.., it's just plain silly.

The Dominican
12-20-2016, 03:44 PM
There are many jobs now accepting older pilots..., the notion that because you are in your mid 50's you have no options is nonsense!

NEDude
12-21-2016, 02:14 PM
There are many jobs now accepting older pilots..., the notion that because you are in your mid 50's you have no options is nonsense!

It depends on where you live and what your financial situation is. If you are 55 and have limited retirement funds, starting at the bottom of the seniority list at a U.S. major will not make as much financial sense as working in China. If you are the same age and in Europe, where age discrimination is common, and legacy pilots are for the most part retiring at that age, your options will be very limited as well. There are a lot of jobs out there, yes, but whether those jobs make financial sense for a guy in his 50s is a different story.

sailingfun
12-24-2016, 07:55 AM
Guys there are horror stories at every gig, also to group all companies as a single parameter as in "working in China" is just as ridiculous as saying that working in Delta and Kallita is one of the same....!

A lot of these stories are true...., but you get bad experiences in the US or Europe too...., a friend went trough hell at one of the majors in the US..., fired unceremoniously and had to spend half of his retirement and years in court to get his job back just for them to start messing with him again lately..., just because one particular manager doesn't like him...!

The same way there are people that have a tough time in China...., there are others (the majority actually) that are happier than a pig in...., Well, you know how the say goes!

What Major was this? The union normally provides legal representation and firings are normally handled under the NMB and system boards.

The Dominican
12-27-2016, 04:40 AM
What Major was this? The union normally provides legal representation and firings are normally handled under the NMB and system boards.

I did my fair share of union work, I know how the system works..., I also know when it doesn't...., and when is purposely made not to work.

Keep patching the inflatable rat boyz........!:rolleyes:

Marlin
01-14-2017, 05:49 AM
my experience working in Asia (CX) for about a year is eerily similar to many posts , both here and other chat boards . These folks don't seem to differentiate between have to know, and nice to know. I can't tell you how much trivial info these guys wanted me to know. They hire experienced DEFO's, then treat you like a child, like this was my 1st flying gig. I guess I'm just not smart enough to know everything about everything all the time. I do know what's important , and when... it comes with 25 years of doing this. The little things I'll look up when it's warranted. I could only take a year of this ridiculous game. It's no wonder china /Asian carriers are finding it hard to find /keep good guys/girls. I wouldn't go back there for all the money in China 😛.
Joe

Bikingscott
02-02-2017, 06:11 AM
Beware flying in China.

There are lots of ads with big money out there; the reality of living, working and in flying in China far outweighs the benefits in this humble pilot's opinion. Remember, if it's too good to be true, yadda yadda; there's a reason the offers are so exorbitant.

In the interest of disseminating information to fellow aviators, a few friends and I have put together a comprehensive document of the recent experiences of various expat pilots in China from a number of sources, anecdotal exchanges to company memos. Most of the stories circle around the toilet bowl that is Tianjin Airlines, but there are others in the mix as well. Suffice it to say, most of what is related applies to Hainan Group in general (of which mighty gorgon Tianjin is a wriggling tentacle) and can be extrapolated out from there to China in general as the reader sees fit.

Flying Upside Down:
Zippyshare.com - Flying Upside Down.pdf (http://www92.zippyshare.com/v/rRE4ARC2/file.html)
[31.77mb Flying Upside Down.pdf]

There are just too many stories to tell to be honest, but this should give people interested in the theater of ops a good taste of what it's like. Friends don't let friends fly China, and any aviator is a compatriot in this matter of grave significance.

Others who have stories, please do share; or send a PM so we can add what you have to share in our next volume if you don't want to post here. Comments of disbelief welcome; keep the flames to a minimum (we already know it's you, China); this document was prepared for free, accept no imitations.

干杯!
(Gānbēi)



--------------------
Dude, I f-ing loved it!!!!

To the O.P., I can't stop laughing/crying at some, make that all, of the crap that the author went through over there. QAR TIME!

I actually was considering going over there.

I know a couple of guys, who were flying Mesa's go! operation in Hawaii that went over. Now I've heard through the grapevine that they all left China

Hereby Notified!

Oh God. The climb to 9000M, FLCH to FL 31600, change to feet, 31500. Would do me in every single time. Couple that With some dip**** in the right seat named Wu, who doesn't know who or what the fk he's doing...

I can't believe that there's not more $hizz going down (literally) over there.
Perhaps the SFO deal --- Sum Ting Wong, Wee Too Loo, shed some light on the situation.

Hereby Notice!
-------------------

PotatoChip
02-02-2017, 06:26 AM
--------------------

Oh God. The climb to 9000M, FLCH to FL 31600, change to feet, 31500. Would do me in every single time. It really isn't that difficult. At all.

I can't believe that there's not more $hizz going down (literally) over there.
Perhaps the SFO deal --- Sum Ting Wong, Wee Too Loo, shed some light on the situation.
That's Korea, not China. There's a difference.

-------------------
......................

The Dominican
02-02-2017, 11:36 PM
Oh God. The climb to 9000M, FLCH to FL 31600, change to feet, 31500. Would do me in every single time. Couple that With some dip**** in the right seat named Wu, who doesn't know who or what the fk he's doing...


You would get confused with a meters convention chart?:confused:
Really?????

I've flown with plenty of guys named Mike that don't know jack either pal:rolleyes:

Something as simple as a different transition level and altitude (that is not 180) is enough to send some of those named Chat, John, Charlie into panic mode.....! LOL!

And let's not mention standard ICAO phraseology ok......!

A330FoodCritic
02-02-2017, 11:39 PM
.......That's Korea, not China. There's a difference................

No difference to Bikingscott.

Pilotssis
02-25-2017, 12:33 PM
I need some feedback from someone currently working as a pilot in China for SF Airlines or any Airline and that is originally from another Country. I have a brother and a friend that are trying to move there.



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