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View Full Version : Flap Failure on ILS


mcartier713
07-17-2015, 11:09 PM
If you were being vectored onto the ILS and your flaps failed; requiring a no-flap landing, would you notify the tower? (and/or approach?)

Why or why not?


CaptYoda
07-17-2015, 11:48 PM
Fly the airplane first and then it's always a good idea to keep ATC in the loop. You would more than likely require some time to sort things out with the assumption that you would complete the required abnormal checklist. There are significant runway implications for most aircraft. For the B737NG as I recall a flaps up landing required a approach speed of Vref40+55, and plenty of runway. The reference required runway was around 1215 metres for 60,000Kg and 160Kg for every 5000Kg above 60K. So unless you were at an airport with long runways you may even have to consider diverting.

cgtpilot
07-18-2015, 01:37 AM
If you're asking if a FAR 121 airliner would land immediately following a slat/flap failure during ILS course capture the answer is absolutely not....and we would certainly notify the tower and roll CFR.


mooney
07-18-2015, 05:26 AM
I'd notify Approach of your min speed as a courtesy so they can figure out spacing ahead of time rather than have them wonder why you are eating up the guy ahead of you then saying "unable" when they ask you to slow. They will pass it to tower.

The Plainsman
07-18-2015, 05:50 AM
keep everybody in the info loop. Runway Length is now an issue, different runway? divert? Some of the toolbags on another thread will snark at your "excessive radio chatter" but at the end of the day, you're in charge of your aircraft, not them. If in doubt , declare an emergency and you've just taken ownership of the airspace and runway. Be safe!

BoilerUP
07-18-2015, 06:19 AM
If you were being vectored onto the ILS and your flaps failed; requiring a no-flap landing, would you notify the tower? (and/or approach?)



Why or why not?


I'm discontinuing the approach, taking delay vectors, running the QRH and making sure I have enough runway...all while keeping the HMFIC onboard apprised of what is going on.

So, to answer the question...yes.

USMCFLYR
07-18-2015, 07:00 AM
Why would I declare an emergency with ATC if in that environment?
Because I can not operate my aircraft in a normal fashion (much higher final approach speed) and therefore ATC needs to know that I will require special handling.
There are MANY variables here. Some may need extra time to run checklists. Some may need to make other decisions - like the different runways or airports that others here have mentioned.
For others it might not be such a big change other than a higher landing speed - which when taken into account with an appropriate runway might not be that much of a change at all.
It isn't black and white enough to have one answer fit all.

The dude
07-18-2015, 07:18 AM
Although I wouldn't declare an emergency because wing flaps are not primary flight controls, I certainly would discontinue the approach. Notify ATC, short vector for QRH, landing data, etc.

JamesNoBrakes
07-18-2015, 07:54 AM
Although I wouldn't declare an emergency because wing flaps are not primary flight controls, I certainly would discontinue the approach. Notify ATC, short vector for QRH, landing data, etc.

That's generally a bad idea. While you might get an "implied" emergency situation, you are going to make it a lot tougher explaining to the FAA how you exceeded holding speed at 6000' and below or something else rather than just up front declaring the emergency and not having to explain around every regulation. That's what the whole "emergency authority" clause is for. Everyone is going to know about it already, so it'll be investigated by the company and regulatory authorities.

RedeyeAV8r
07-18-2015, 08:07 AM
Although I wouldn't declare an emergency because wing flaps are not primary flight controls, I certainly would discontinue the approach. Notify ATC, short vector for QRH, landing data, etc.

Many Pilots seem hesitant to Declare an emergency.

If the situation requires the Crew to go to the RED TABS or Non-Normal-Emergency Checklist, you will be better served just declaring an emergency.

This will do several things.
First an foremost it will alert ATC giving them a heads up and if/when you request something, it will be immediately be granted.
Second, abnormal Flap checklists can be busy and time consuming and should the crew deviate from an ATC or FAR procedure due to their preoccupation, they are covered.
Lastly, if on landing a tire is blown, or the aircraft strays from the runway or taxiway, or some other issue occurs not necessarily related to the Initial problem, you will regret (at the Long Green Table) that an Emergency was not previously declared.

Declare an emergency (Think Safety First)
Fly the Airplane
Handle the issue as you were trained
Land the airplane safely.

Later, Fill out an ASAP and you cannot be faulted.

mooney
07-18-2015, 08:12 AM
That's generally a bad idea. While you might get an "implied" emergency situation, you are going to make it a lot tougher explaining to the FAA how you exceeded holding speed at 6000' and below or something else rather than just up front declaring the emergency and not having to explain around every regulation. That's what the whole "emergency authority" clause is for. Everyone is going to know about it already, so it'll be investigated by the company and regulatory authorities.

Not every plane has a holding speed without flaps greater than the FAR holding speeds, or any other FAR for that matter. Obviously if someone knew they had to break an FAR they would declare. The CFM/FOM for one of my aircraft clearly said "a flap failure in itself does not necessarily call for a declaration of emergency." 10,000 ft dry runway? No problem. 7000 ft wet? Might want to declare. As USMC said, it depends on the situation. We don't know enough of the OP's aircraft, destination etc to be able to discuss anything really. This thread drifted quite fast from "notify ATC" to "declare an emergency no matter what" even though it may have been a Cessna 414 on a 12000 ft runway.

Yoda2
07-18-2015, 11:15 AM
Generally speaking I would notify ATC and as early as possible, though not necessarily declare an emergency. An emergency regarding flaps could be very situation dependent. Regardless of the details, If I was your CP I would see this as good topic for discussion, clarification and opportunity for improvement. I would address this situation by gathering input, fact finding, Etc. and update SOP, manuals Etc. as necessary based on those findings and determinations.

hockeypilot44
07-18-2015, 11:22 AM
If you were being vectored onto the ILS and your flaps failed; requiring a no-flap landing, would you notify the tower? (and/or approach?)

Why or why not?

My decision depends on what airplane I'm flying. When I was flying the Embraer 145, I did 3 no flap landings in a 3 year period. One as a first officer, 2 as captain. Only thing we changed was requesting the longest runway. In the last instance, we were going into DSM and already planning on using longest runway so we didn't even tell ATC. Those flaps were electric and prone to failure. Flying something larger like a 737 or MD-80, I would go around and trouble shoot. It all depends on how well you know your airplane. Experience matters.

JamesNoBrakes
07-18-2015, 12:21 PM
Not every plane has a holding speed without flaps greater than the FAR holding speeds, or any other FAR for that matter. Obviously if someone knew they had to break an FAR they would declare. The CFM/FOM for one of my aircraft clearly said "a flap failure in itself does not necessarily call for a declaration of emergency." 10,000 ft dry runway? No problem. 7000 ft wet? Might want to declare. As USMC said, it depends on the situation. We don't know enough of the OP's aircraft, destination etc to be able to discuss anything really. This thread drifted quite fast from "notify ATC" to "declare an emergency no matter what" even though it may have been a Cessna 414 on a 12000 ft runway.

And that's the issue. You're generally not "planning" so much in that event as you are reacting and you need all the help you can get. You may get an ATC instruction a a moment's notice that you are unable to comply with, or need to clip some airspace that you otherwise wouldn't. I agree with a slow prop airplane this may not be much of an issue, but with a jet, more than likely it would be prudent to do so. Things can change very fast out of your favor, like TRs failing to deploy, etc. You've already got one failure and a compounded situation will likely put you in over the top.

I was assuming for the most part that we were talking about jets though, with the references to the QRH, etc.

Cruz Clearance
07-19-2015, 03:59 PM
Mayday for sure on 737NG. Might also divert to longer slice of pavement.

Yoda2
07-19-2015, 04:26 PM
Mayday for sure on 737NG. Might also divert to longer slice of pavement.

"This is your captain speaking, We are dealing with a small issue and have chosen to divert to Edwards Air Force Base, we have already arranged for complimentary bus passes so you may complete the remainder of your journey."

Packrat
07-19-2015, 05:07 PM
It all depends on where the flaps fail. Full up, go around, declare an emergency, run your checklists, check the landing data, come back around.

If they fail at 25 when you're planning an F30 landing, add 5 knots, land.

Its all situational.

Ace Hotshot
07-19-2015, 05:51 PM
If you're asking if a FAR 121 airliner would land immediately following a slat/flap failure during ILS course capture the answer is absolutely not....and we would certainly notify the tower and roll CFR.

This is the corporate forum. We're talking Barbie Fun Jets, not airliners.

Yeah yeah, so there's an occasional BBJ or Global Express pilot here, but most here are Slowtation or Near Jet drivers and no-flap landings is a non event.

captjns
07-19-2015, 06:04 PM
Safest approach is to abort the approach go someplace to hold, regroup, run the checklist and come back and land the jet with a clear mind. better safe by taking ones time rather than rushing. High elevation airports, with hot temperatures may result in landing speeds exceeding tire speeds.

rickair7777
07-19-2015, 10:12 PM
If you know FOR SURE that your airplane is...

a) Good for the available runway length with the available flaps AND
b) No special procedures are required other than adding a few knots that the PM can quickly look up (I know the QRH and speeds by memory).

Then land and don't say anything. Routine at LAX on a cool day...more runway than you'll ever need.

Otherwise or if in any doubt then missed approach, run the QRH, then decide whether to declare an emergency based on circumstances.

Frozen Ronin
07-20-2015, 04:04 AM
I'm with BoilerUp and Redeye. I'd want my folks to speak up if the QRH is coming out, even if it was an easy task on a perfect day. Its hard to preach CRM and not support doing so.

Great discussion, we should do this more often.

legend
07-20-2015, 05:44 AM
I'm glad 121 guys are are chiming in. 91/135 seem to be more lax with continuing on this type of failure regardless of jet size. I think it's a personal decision whether or not you declare an Emergency. I would probably declare but that's my comfort level to cover everything. It's not that big a deal to fill out a form online for this. But for sure run check lists and if on approach go around vectors etc. to allow time to run the checklist, not by memory.

N9373M
07-20-2015, 07:17 AM
I'm still digging thru the FARs, but I believe you are required to report to ATC and malfunctioning equipment. It was on the written (PPL or IR?) and I reported when my AI rolled over

web500sjc
07-20-2015, 08:03 PM
I'm still digging thru the FARs, but I believe you are required to report to ATC and malfunctioning equipment. It was on the written (PPL or IR?) and I reported when my AI rolled over

Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, the pilot in command of each aircraft operated under IFR in controlled airspace must ensure that a continuous watch is maintained on the appropriate frequency and must report the following as soon as possible—
(a) The time and altitude of passing each designated reporting point, or the reporting points specified by ATC, except that while the aircraft is under radar control, only the passing of those reporting points specifically requested by ATC need be reported;

(b) Any unforecast weather conditions encountered; and

(c) Any other information relating to the safety of flight.


91.183

edited to quote FAR

F224
07-21-2015, 04:46 AM
Why would I declare an emergency with ATC if in that environment?
Because I can not operate my aircraft in a normal fashion (much higher final approach speed) and therefore ATC needs to know that I will require special handling.
There are MANY variables here. Some may need extra time to run checklists. Some may need to make other decisions - like the different runways or airports that others here have mentioned.
For others it might not be such a big change other than a higher landing speed - which when taken into account with an appropriate runway might not be that much of a change at all.
It isn't black and white enough to have one answer fit all.

FAR 91.3 says you can take any action you need to that ensures the safety of the flight. ABSOLUTELY declare an emergency, everything you do after that is "free" and you get priority handling.

In my ALPA days I was an expert witness on more than a few certificate actions, in every case, those who did not declare an emergency were in deep water, but those who did, never had any actions taken against them.

Use your Captain's authority, don't be a dumb ass. Also, always fill out a NASA form, it's cheap insurance.

legend
07-21-2015, 11:15 AM
FAR 91.3 says you can take any action you need to that ensures the safety of the flight. ABSOLUTELY declare an emergency, everything you do after that is "free" and you get priority handling.

In my ALPA days I was an expert witness on more than a few certificate actions, in every case, those who did not declare an emergency were in deep water, but those who did, never had any actions taken against them.

Use your Captain's authority, don't be a dumb ass. Also, always fill out a NASA form, it's cheap insurance.

Good post!!

ultrarunner
07-21-2015, 06:09 PM
Happened to me just a couple years ago...flap failure as a result of a hyd failure. However, even w/o the latter, it's a 40kt add to ref and at our weight at that time, it put us very close to tire-limit speed. So, we delcared adn diverted. We were headed to the NYC area, diverted to a very long runway in the area, and made an uneventful landing. Prly had the runway OTS for maybe 20 minutes till we were towed clear...etc.... declaring is now big deal. Not sure why folks get all wrapped up around it...

F224
07-22-2015, 12:33 PM
Happened to me just a couple years ago/// ... declaring is now big deal. Not sure why folks get all wrapped up around it...

Reluctance to declaring an emergency has been an interesting trend through out my 40+ years in this business. Almost to a pilot, the ex-military guys know it's no big deal, and the civilian only pilots are reluctant to do it because of some fear of FAA paperwork.

It's free, it's easy and it gives you a blank check to do the required things to keep your flight safe and the FAA at bay. More guys get in trouble for not declaring one than ever do for using this tool in your kit.

Just don't use it to make your commuter flight connection...that would be a stupid pilot trick that get's guys fired.

The dude
07-22-2015, 04:46 PM
That's generally a bad idea. While you might get an "implied" emergency situation, you are going to make it a lot tougher explaining to the FAA how you exceeded holding speed at 6000' and below or something else rather than just up front declaring the emergency and not having to explain around every regulation. That's what the whole "emergency authority" clause is for. Everyone is going to know about it already, so it'll be investigated by the company and regulatory authorities.

I guess you're the judge of good and bad ideas. Just because you have to exceed a holding speed doesn't mean I do. You fly your plane I'll fly mine. A flap failure is not an emergency situation. Just because you're "uncomfortable" doesn't mean I need to declare an emergency.

USMCFLYR
07-22-2015, 06:49 PM
FAR 91.3 says you can take any action you need to that ensures the safety of the flight. ABSOLUTELY declare an emergency, everything you do after that is "free" and you get priority handling.

In my ALPA days I was an expert witness on more than a few certificate actions, in every case, those who did not declare an emergency were in deep water, but those who did, never had any actions taken against them.

Use your Captain's authority, don't be a dumb ass. Also, always fill out a NASA form, it's cheap insurance.
Did you get that I said 'don't declare an emergency' out of my above quoted post?:confused:

bigfatdaddy
07-23-2015, 04:18 PM
Did you get that I said 'don't declare an emergency' out of my above quoted post?:confused:

Yeah ya did

USMCFLYR
07-23-2015, 04:36 PM
Did you get that I said 'don't declare an emergency' out of my above quoted post?:confused:

Yeah ya did
Then let me clear up my poor communication and/or both of your misunderstanding of my post.

I said:
Why would I declare an emergency with ATC if in that environment? Because I can not operate my aircraft in a normal fashion (much higher final approach speed) and therefore ATC needs to know that I will require special handling.
The question was would I declare an emergency.
The first sentence is sort of an answer - like 'why would I do something you ask?....because.....'

The second sentence states why I think it is important.
If you are unable to operate your aircraft in the normal manner then you should probably declare an emergency.

bigfatdaddy
07-23-2015, 05:04 PM
Then let me clear up my poor communication and/or both of your misunderstanding of my post.

I said:

The question was would I declare an emergency.
The first sentence is sort of an answer - like 'why would I do something you ask?....because.....'

The second sentence states why I think it is important.
If you are unable to operate your aircraft in the normal manner then you should probably declare an emergency.

Poor communication on you part

USMCFLYR
07-23-2015, 05:14 PM
Poor communication on you part

Yes..... I'm sure that is all it was :rolleyes:
Keep trying.
It gets easier with practice.

bigfatdaddy
07-23-2015, 05:41 PM
Yes I misspelled your....nice catch. Probably the most worthwhile thing you have posted. Do us a favor and hang out in the FAA chat rooms. We don't mind you when you are non-existant

USMCFLYR
07-23-2015, 05:55 PM
Yes I misspelled your....nice catch. Probably the most worthwhile thing you have posted. Do us a favor and hang out in the FAA chat rooms. We don't mind you when you are non-existant

That is a nice try at a dig and I wasn't even pointing that mistype out.
Do you have more to share? :D

It is ok for you to admit that you misunderstood a post and then made a mistake by posting a reply.
A little 'oh....my mistake' goes a long way towards not looking like a fool. I, at least, could admit that I might have communicated my intent better but I see that you are above admitting you might have miscomprehended my post.

You are certainly the bigger man on the internet tonight.

bigfatdaddy
07-23-2015, 05:57 PM
Nothing to miscomprehend. You were wrong. As you have been many times in the past.

cactusmike
07-24-2015, 11:28 PM
If I have a flight control failure and it affects the performance of the aircraft then I would declare the emergency.

If you are flying a jet you best be sure you don't have a performance penalty for landing distance. If you are flying an actual, real ILS because of weather and the runway is not absolutely dry then you should break off the approach and dig the performance book out. You may be surprised just how much runway you need.

Emergency calls are free, and the CFR guys are so freakin' bored they will love you big time for breaking up the reruns of the Springer show.

Flightcap
08-06-2015, 09:21 AM
Emergency calls are free, and the CFR guys are so freakin' bored they will love you big time for breaking up the reruns of the Springer show.

I can attest to that. Declared an emergency a couple of days ago for a landing gear extension problem (right main indicating unlocked), and landed at a busy class Charlie. The landing gear held and the aircraft rolled to a stop without assistance. Even so the ARFF guys looked like a bunch of grinning teenagers for the chance to drive around in their trucks. :D They weren't annoyed in the least at being called out for something that ended up being benign.

joepilot
08-09-2015, 12:58 PM
On the primary aircraft that I flew prior to retirement, the speed increment to add for a no flap approach was 70 knots. At max legal landing weight the 30 flap Vref was 154 knots, so the approach speed would be 224+5 for calm winds, plus any other wind corrections. This is well above the tire limit speed for the aircraft. Even with a max passenger load with minimum fuel, the 30 flap Vref would be 141 Knots, giving an approach speed of 211+5, still well above tire limit speed unless there is a really big headwind.

A no flap land with max braking and max reversing is calculated to take more than 9,000" at sea level, and more than 11,000" at Denver. This speed guarantees molten brakes, tire fuse plugs blowing, and probable brake fire. There is a good chance of blown tires, departing the runway, and an aircraft evacuation down the slides.

Should I declare an emergency? Well, let me think about that.

Joe