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View Full Version : Korean Air Stalls 747-400


hanGUK
09-17-2015, 06:33 AM
Working at Korean Air you see all kinds of crazy stuff that wouldn't and couldn't happen at western carriers. Last year while looking through the logbook prior to a flight I noticed something unbelievable...

View image: Full Size Render 2 (http://postimg.org/image/zc42feg99/)http://postimg.org/image/zc42feg99/

Look at Item 'C' in the write ups

Tail number associated was HL7404

I'm tired of their cover ups, these things happen ALL the time and the company never discusses or discloses it. CRM is taught based on other companies' screw ups and never our own. Ground school is taught to foreigners in Korean language and test answers are disseminated by instructors. This place is an embarrassment to the aviation profession and they should not be allowed to fly outside of their sorry little postage stamp of a country. If the ICAO ever needed to step in and do something, it needs to be over the fatally dangerous aviation culture in South Korea and specifically at Korean Airlines.


The Dominican
09-17-2015, 07:23 AM
crazy stuff that wouldn't and couldn't happen at western carriers. Last year while looking through the logbook prior to a flight I noticed something unbelievable.

Sorry to have to be the one to tell you this...., but there have been dozens of stalls at US carriers in the last decade alone:rolleyes:

hanGUK
09-17-2015, 08:01 AM
Sorry to have to be the one to tell you this...., but there have been dozens of stalls at US carriers in the last decade alone:rolleyes:


But none in a 747-400 with passengers...

The regionals in the US are a whole other animal and have problems of their own but the follow 'best practices' to work with the FAA to fix it. When you have a bunch of young guys who have been flying jets for less than 3-4 years you're going to have mistakes. However, when you have a flight deck with experienced pilots, some of which have been on type for 25 years and they still make basic mistakes you have a systemic problem.

Also, Boeings have VNAV and many more speed protections that regional jets lack. To stall a 744 is a willful act of idiocy and ignorance.


bedrock
09-17-2015, 08:45 AM
But none in a 747-400 with passengers...

The regionals in the US are a whole other animal and have problems of their own but the follow 'best practices' to work with the FAA to fix it. When you have a bunch of young guys who have been flying jets for less than 3-4 years you're going to have mistakes. However, when you have a flight deck with experienced pilots, some of which have been on type for 25 years and they still make basic mistakes you have a systemic problem.

Also, Boeings have VNAV and many more speed protections that regional jets lack. To stall a 744 is a willful act of idiocy and ignorance.

Where is KAL doing it's ab-initio commercial training nowadays? Is it still being done in the US? If so, there is a problem there.

Also, post this on flyer talk and start making pax aware. The asian airlines are letting a lot of unsafe practices fly. Taiwan is another issue.

hanGUK
09-17-2015, 08:59 AM
Where is KAL doing it's ab-initio commercial training nowadays? Is it still being done in the US? If so, there is a problem there.

Also, post this on flyer talk and start making pax aware. The asian airlines are letting a lot of unsafe practices fly. Taiwan is another issue.



The Chairman at KAL quit hiring the civilian trained guys (Jeju academy) a few years ago, they are almost entirely hiring ex-airforce which is a huge mistake IMHO. These guys speak little to no english, have no CRM experience, and do not fly in IMC while in the air force.

To obtain their ICAO english qualification they pay an examiner in Canada upwards of $2000 and they are issued a level 6 which they convert in Korea. They would never be able to obtain a level 4 in any other country but the Canadian examiners are corrupt.

contrail44
09-17-2015, 09:07 AM
Where is KAL doing it's ab-initio commercial training nowadays? Is it still being done in the US? If so, there is a problem there.

Also, post this on flyer talk and start making pax aware. The asian airlines are letting a lot of unsafe practices fly. Taiwan is another issue.

I recently instructed at a flight school that had a contract with Korean. Their are multiple places in the U.S. that Korean is sending there guys. The training those guys are receiving is a joke. They stick them in a king air for 10 hours and say they are ready to fly a 73.

The Dominican
09-17-2015, 11:09 AM
However, when you have a flight deck with experienced pilots, some of which have been on type for 25 years and they still make basic mistakes you have a systemic problem.

Also, Boeings have VNAV and many more speed protections that regional jets lack. To stall a 744 is a willful act of idiocy and ignorance.

Sorry but you are wrong...., there has been several cases over the last decade of stalls at the majors in the US..., not the regionals.

JohnBurke
09-17-2015, 01:12 PM
But none in a 747-400 with passengers...

...

Also, Boeings have VNAV and many more speed protections that regional jets lack. To stall a 744 is a willful act of idiocy and ignorance.

I don't know about passengers, but I'm aware of several cases of 747-400's being stalled by US carriers, as well as 747-200's.

brianb
09-17-2015, 02:41 PM
I don't know about passengers, but I'm aware of several cases of 747-400's being stalled by US carriers, as well as 747-200's.
Weak statements at best. Full stall, approach to stall, what flight regime did it occur in? Aircraft damage, scared passengers? Name the last US carrier to stall a large jet due to Pilot stupidity with the exception of Colgan Air, which was a turbo prop, and severe weather. I'm just talking dumb dumbs here.

JohnBurke
09-17-2015, 02:53 PM
Weak statements at best. Full stall, approach to stall, what flight regime did it occur in? Aircraft damage, scared passengers? Name the last US carrier to stall a large jet due to Pilot stupidity with the exception of Colgan Air, which was a turbo prop, and severe weather. I'm just talking dumb dumbs here.

I won't name the carrier or the individuals, as I gave them representation during their hearings. I will state that I'm personally familiar with several occurrences involving full aerodynamic stalls of 747-400 and -200 aircraft, that have occurred with US carriers.

The specifics of each case have been addressed and settled, and I am unable to discuss the details.

"Dumb-dumb" was never a term that came up in the investigations, review boards, or subsequent actions taken. Perhaps it's too technical for some of us.

PotatoChip
09-17-2015, 03:06 PM
Weak statements at best. Full stall, approach to stall, what flight regime did it occur in? Aircraft damage, scared passengers? Name the last US carrier to stall a large jet due to Pilot stupidity with the exception of Colgan Air, which was a turbo prop, and severe weather. I'm just talking dumb dumbs here.

Severe weather???
Reported moderate icing and 800ft ceilings. Sounds like three months of the year in BUF to me. And for 121 pilots based out of EWR, that is not severe weather.

The Dominican
09-17-2015, 03:06 PM
Weak statements at best. Full stall, approach to stall, what flight regime did it occur in? Aircraft damage, scared passengers? Name the last US carrier to stall a large jet due to Pilot stupidity with the exception of Colgan Air, which was a turbo prop, and severe weather. I'm just talking dumb dumbs here.

John Burke is correct...., I won't name any specific cases either since I read the reports as a line standards rep for the carrier where I was working a while back....., but 73s, 75s, a few MD types from a couple of carriers have been involved in stall events in US carriers, besides the cases that he has mentioned already......!

I didn't mean to interrupt your KAL hate fest, I don't really care one way or another..., I was just responding to the comment that it would never happened in a US carrier...., it HAS happened, several times actually:rolleyes:

badflaps
09-17-2015, 03:16 PM
Let's see who piles one up first.

UAL T38 Phlyer
09-17-2015, 04:19 PM
if John is talking about the same carrier I am thinking of, the SAME CAPTAIN did it twice, over the Pacific, because he tried to fly higher than the current max alt (full of fuel).

I was told he lost neary 10,000 ft (from a level off in the 30s).

This was bar talk long ago, and I think he's long gone. But might have been canned after the second incident.

The Dominican
09-17-2015, 04:40 PM
In one particular carrier, happened twice in one year....! Same fleet!

JamesNoBrakes
09-17-2015, 09:32 PM
But none in a 747-400 with passengers...

The regionals in the US are a whole other animal

No, the regionals are 121 carriers.

JohnBurke
09-17-2015, 10:12 PM
if John is talking about the same carrier I am thinking of, the SAME CAPTAIN did it twice, over the Pacific, because he tried to fly higher than the current max alt (full of fuel).

I was told he lost neary 10,000 ft (from a level off in the 30s).

This was bar talk long ago, and I think he's long gone. But might have been canned after the second incident.

Different cases, but in the case of one of the individuals, he's been involved in more than one such incident, and is currently on the line.

RI830
09-18-2015, 05:08 AM
Let's see who piles one up first.

First?!?!
Asians beat the bunch to it. Who is next?
The Asian hierarchy and societal issues are a major factor to these incidents. A crew will sit quietly watching a CA drive it at the ground.
All in the name of "never question authority/captain"

AA had issues with approach to stall events when auto throttles were mel'd in certain fleet types. A/C would level off and slow to the point of shaker.
Unsure of other airlines history with this.

brianb
09-18-2015, 06:41 AM
I won't name the carrier or the individuals, as I gave them representation during their hearings. I will state that I'm personally familiar with several occurrences involving full aerodynamic stalls of 747-400 and -200 aircraft, that have occurred with US carriers.

The specifics of each case have been addressed and settled, and I am unable to discuss the details.

"Dumb-dumb" was never a term that came up in the investigations, review boards, or subsequent actions taken. Perhaps it's too technical for some of us.
Please John. It would take a dumb arse Pilot to unintentionally "full stall" a 747. I would classify that as a dumb dumb move. Sorry you didn't get the point.

LRSRanger
09-18-2015, 10:26 AM
At AMF we are getting Korean and other time builders flying as FOs. They come in with a wet commercial and fly right seat till they hit 1000 TT, then they go back home. We have an exemption which allows them to log SIC. Skill sets range from very good to pretty atrocious.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Probe
09-18-2015, 03:52 PM
Weak statements at best. Full stall, approach to stall, what flight regime did it occur in? Aircraft damage, scared passengers? Name the last US carrier to stall a large jet due to Pilot stupidity with the exception of Colgan Air, which was a turbo prop, and severe weather. I'm just talking dumb dumbs here.

Colgan wasn't just a stall, it was a stall that was never recovered. Air France and Air Asia also did the same from 35k feet.

Aircraft stall at high altitude occasionally, or get so slow they have to descend to regain airspeed.

It is generally frowned upon, but it does happen.

JohnBurke
09-18-2015, 08:51 PM
Please John. It would take a dumb arse Pilot to unintentionally "full stall" a 747. I would classify that as a dumb dumb move. Sorry you didn't get the point.

This, based on your experience in the 747, or your experience interviewing, investigating, and representing those involved? I didn't catch which one justified your judgmental expertise in the matter. Which might it be?

Based on your "dumb dumb" classification, presumably it was part of your doctoral thesis.

The Dominican
09-19-2015, 02:49 AM
AA had issues with approach to stall events when auto throttles were mel'd in certain fleet types. A/C would level off and slow to the point of shaker.
Unsure of other airlines history with this.

You need to get the facts...., not just "cruise" talk.

bedrock
09-19-2015, 04:05 AM
Our local geniuses set the VS to 500 fpm, started reading on deck and forgot about it until the shaker! We also had one who turned off the fuel pumps per maint. procedure on the ground, but never re-ran the whole checklist prior to t/o. The result: duel flame out at 30K. Lucky able to restart. He lost the captaincy for a yr on that one.

Muredhawk
09-19-2015, 07:20 AM
U.S. Carriers have the same idiots. I won't confirm or deny how I know...

Sliceback
09-19-2015, 12:12 PM
Uh, it's not just regionals in the US stalling at altitude. Pprune has had threads in the last 18 months on incidents that happened at major US airlines.

John Carr
09-19-2015, 05:18 PM
The result: duel flame out at 30K. Lucky able to restart. He lost the captaincy for a yr on that one.

1) Change the gender

2) Nope, had multiple issues that resulted in their performance downgrade.

Topaz
09-20-2015, 04:06 PM
This place is an embarrassment to the aviation profession and they should not be allowed to fly outside of their sorry little postage stamp of a country.

It's not just what you say that are prejudiced, your user id says a lot about how you feel towards asian. I think it is you who are an embarrassment to not only aviation profession but to the civilization. Having gone through the same training at KAL, I do understand some of your accusations but you are making them seem a whole lot worse than they are. And if you are going to criticize, stick to facts only and don't insult any cultures or countries. Without wasting energy into refuting, I am just going to say that you need to leave ASAP as I or the local nationals do not want to work with someone with prejudiced mind like you. (As likes of you would say: Back to the sorry ass country you came from.:D)

727C47
09-20-2015, 05:49 PM
Korea rocks I've loved my trips and layovers there. Good people. That is all. Out

bedrock
09-20-2015, 06:18 PM
1) Change the gender

2) Nope, had multiple issues that resulted in their performance downgrade.

I was TRYING to be discrete and the point is, it did happen.

John Carr
09-20-2015, 06:22 PM
I was TRYING to be discrete and the point is, it did happen.

1) "They" would have better suited your intent of discretion, versus a gender pronoun.

2) NEVER denied it didn't happen. What I was saying is, that wasn't said pilot's ONLY operational issue that resulted in their performance downgrade.

ost the captaincy for a yr on that one.

IOW, it WASN'T just "that one".......

And the performance downgrade happened well after the fuel pump issue.

hanGUK
09-22-2015, 10:28 PM
It's not just what you say that are prejudiced, your user id says a lot about how you feel towards asian. I think it is you who are an embarrassment to not only aviation profession but to the civilization. Having gone through the same training at KAL, I do understand some of your accusations but you are making them seem a whole lot worse than they are. And if you are going to criticize, stick to facts only and don't insult any cultures or countries. Without wasting energy into refuting, I am just going to say that you need to leave ASAP as I or the local nationals do not want to work with someone with prejudiced mind like you. (As likes of you would say: Back to the sorry ass country you came from.:D)

You obviously aren't who you say you are, hanguk means 'South Korea' in the Korean language. It is how they refer to their country. Furthermore, there is no prejudice here, only facts. Facts that should bring to light incompentencies in their aviation culture. I doubt you work there, if you did you would understand what I'm trying to convey (you might also know the meaning of my username). The ONLY reason they haven't crashed since '99 is because of the expats, modern aircraft, and dumb luck. Their luck is bound to run out, I'm highlighting one incident of many, many more but this is the only one I have proof of. All the others are swept under the rug and become urban legends that nobody can prove.

hanGUK
09-22-2015, 10:34 PM
Colgan wasn't just a stall, it was a stall that was never recovered. Air France and Air Asia also did the same from 35k feet.

Aircraft stall at high altitude occasionally, or get so slow they have to descend to regain airspeed.

It is generally frowned upon, but it does happen.

Koreans stall airplanes because of their lack of understanding and wrote memorization, I don't know the full details of this stall but I can surmise based on my experience preventing stalls with Korean pilots on the 744. Turb air penetration speed .82-.85, Koreans are super jumpy in ANY turbulence... even light. They instantly turn on CONT ignition and dial it back to .82, problem is .82 is usually close to the stall and with any airspeed deviation as you might get in rough air it'll go full stall. I've had to move the throttles forward on multiple occasions because these guys don't understand this stuff. They're not 'dumb' just culturally retarded because they have never been able to think freely like western cultures.



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