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ASpilot0936
04-04-2016, 11:18 AM
If ALPA signs off on putting 9 year guys at the top of our list there's going to be he!! to pay....

VA pilots should not bump our Capt's or delay our upgrades. If they can't do anything else, then keeps the lists separate.


2loud
04-04-2016, 11:37 AM
Oh, here we go.... PNW vs. Gaybay!
Moderator, please start a east vs. west, part II.

Packrat
04-04-2016, 11:40 AM
One post and it's off to the races. I smell a troll here.


pete2800
04-04-2016, 11:53 AM
Staple everyone below Horizon!

:D


"Welcome to Horizon Air flight 2400, proudly operated by Virgin America..."

80ktsClamp
04-04-2016, 11:58 AM
Given the complete lack of scope that AS has, this could prove to be very entertaining to watch from the outside...

bbhnpd
04-04-2016, 11:59 AM
Don't you think their #1 Captain has every reasonable expectation to end up in a position to continue doing the job he is presently doing? And have the career expectations he currently has?

svergin
04-04-2016, 12:02 PM
Don't you think their #1 Captain has every reasonable expectation to end up in a position to continue doing the job he is presently doing? And have the career expectations he currently has?

VA #1 Captain is #1 on a narrowbody airplane. Two narrowbody fleets merging. Looks like relative percentage with a slight adjustment for longevity, but not enough to override that Captains will be merged with Captains just like we did with United.

Brakes Set
04-04-2016, 12:04 PM
Just review what Southwest did to AirTran.
Smaller scale because of the size difference between in the two airlines.

The VA Captains should all be prepared to lose every Captain Seat.
Every VA pilot should expect and welcome a major seniority loss
and...

very sorry to see what one pilot group is about to do to another.

GPullR
04-04-2016, 12:09 PM
VA #1 Captain is #1 on a narrowbody airplane. Two narrowbody fleets merging. Looks like relative percentage with a slight adjustment for longevity, but not enough to override that Captains will be merged with Captains just like we did with United.

Don't think so fast. Longevity and career expectation are defiantly favorable for Alaska . Bet they get a big adjustment.

Bugaboo
04-04-2016, 12:11 PM
Just review what Southwest did to AirTran.
Smaller scale because of the size difference between in the two airlines.

The VA Captains should all be prepared to lose every Captain Seat.
Every VA pilot should expect and welcome a major seniority loss
and...

very sorry to see what one pilot group is about to do to another.

I think you are way off....we shall see.

100LL
04-04-2016, 12:22 PM
What does this mean to new hires? Will they now be asked to go to the crappy domiciles of Virgin?

Bugaboo
04-04-2016, 12:31 PM
Don't think so fast. Longevity and career expectation are defiantly favorable for Alaska . Bet they get a big adjustment.

Longevity ....yes
Career Expectations.....no

Make your voice heard to your respective MECs and let them take it from there. Best of luck to all.

eaglefly
04-04-2016, 01:49 PM
ALPA merger policy will govern. Variables include comparing pay/bennies though. Should favor Alaska, but only slightly IMO.

say again
04-04-2016, 01:51 PM
If ALPA signs off on putting 9 year guys at the top of our list there's going to be he!! to pay....

VA pilots should not bump our Capt's or delay our upgrades. If they can't do anything else, then keeps the lists separate.


Ooooooh, internet tough guy!:rolleyes:

donwonton
04-04-2016, 01:57 PM
Career Expectations.....no


There have been more VA pilots going to AS than AS pilots going to VA. Just sayin.

2loud
04-04-2016, 02:00 PM
Both carriers being ALPA, it can't be a staple job. Having said that, since Virgin pilots do not have a ALPA CBA, how is that going to impact the SLI? I hope that this doesn't turn into another east vs. west debacle. Both pilot groups have to be realistic but Virgin boys & girls probably will not fare well on the SLI for the most part, depending on one's perspective. It's just my guess and pure speculation at this point. Interesting times ahead for sure.

ASpilot0936
04-04-2016, 02:02 PM
ALPA merger policy will govern.

Which says that everything is negotiable in regards to SLI.....

None of us want VA guys above us. I just have the balls to say it first. If ALPA screws us, then I want them off property as I no longer want to pay for a union that doesn't look out for my best interest no matter what the issue.

pilotgolfer
04-04-2016, 02:18 PM
VA shouldn't definitely hire Katz as their attorney. He's the best. You Alaska guys should even offer to pay his fees for VA.

EskimoJoe
04-04-2016, 03:10 PM
Which says that everything is negotiable in regards to SLI.....

None of us want VA guys above us. I just have the balls to say it first. If ALPA screws us, then I want them off property as I no longer want to pay for a union that doesn't look out for my best interest no matter what the issue.
Lighten up Francis. They're ALPA too. Everybody's interests will be presented via their respective legal teams and an arbitrator, (barring prior negotiation) will decide what is a "fair and equitable" list. Threatening to dump ALPA is a fools errand. There's plenty of recent examples of how that strategy is a loser.

Get used to the term "fair and equitable". That's the goal. Each merger turns on it's own factual circumstances. Looking to other mergers is mostly a waste of time. This Marathon hasn't even REMOTELY begun. Don't spin yourself into hypertension this early on.

Bugaboo
04-04-2016, 03:15 PM
There have been more VA pilots going to AS than AS pilots going to VA. Just sayin.

As of today that looks like a bad move on their part

donwonton
04-04-2016, 03:32 PM
As of today that looks like a bad move on their part

In hindsight, for sure, but nobody saw this coming. And their career expectation at Virgin up until recently was that it was better to not make a career there but somewhere else like Alaska. Doesn't apply to all Virgin's pilots but nobody at Alaska would say, "You know what? I would rather be at Virgin. I'm leaving Alaska!"

eaglefly
04-04-2016, 03:33 PM
Which says that everything is negotiable in regards to SLI.....

None of us want VA guys above us. I just have the balls to say it first. If ALPA screws us, then I want them off property as I no longer want to pay for a union that doesn't look out for my best interest no matter what the issue.

"Negotiable" ?

Well, I expect they may try, but ultimately negotiation won't be a factor, arbitration will. In arbitration both sides walk a fine line by presenting what is most favorable to their interests without blatantly overreaching.

The arbs will sort it out and use the components of ALPA merger policy adjusted for pre-merger economics. ALPA can't screw you because they won't decide, the arbs will. Just my .02.......

eaglefly
04-04-2016, 03:36 PM
In hindsight, for sure, but nobody saw this coming. And their career expectation at Virgin up until recently was that it was better to not make a career there but somewhere else like Alaska. Doesn't apply to all Virgin's pilots but nobody at Alaska would say, "You know what? I would rather be at Virgin. I'm leaving Alaska!"

Each side will make all kinds of claims in arbitration. The arbs will ferret out the wheat from the chaff.

ASpilot0936
04-04-2016, 03:46 PM
Lighten up Francis. They're ALPA too. Everybody's interests will be presented via their respective legal teams and an arbitrator, (barring prior negotiation) will decide what is a "fair and equitable" list. Threatening to dump ALPA is a fools errand. There's plenty of recent examples of how that strategy is a loser.

Get used to the term "fair and equitable". That's the goal. Each merger turns on it's own factual circumstances. Looking to other mergers is mostly a waste of time. This Marathon hasn't even REMOTELY begun. Don't spin yourself into hypertension this early on.

I'm sure you'll say the same when you get bumped out of your base/seat.

Klsytakesit
04-04-2016, 03:50 PM
Lets hope that this merger will be handled like we actually are a true union...and not a spoiled brat, silver spoon, college boy tantrum...There are many long time union brothers at Virgin and in all likelyhood there MEC is a much stronger representative body than our own.....We have a huge hurdle ahead if we hope to ever have a contract that represents the value of our tradecraft......You can bet your last dollar that every single member of our current management from Brad down hopes we turn into a bunch of mewling selfish punks....more worried about paint jobs and upgrades and "career expectations".....and take our eye off the ball....our contract, due in 2018, is our last chance ever to get back what we gave, and elavate ourselves to the level we want and deserve

Klsytakesit
04-04-2016, 03:58 PM
I have been here 17 years and I fully expect to have Virgin guys eventually take their place above me.....we need to fill in our seniority list with Virgin pilots at all levels. We need to get them on our contract.....and capture their fighting spirit to help undo the wrongs of Kasher, Contract 09 and our last loser Contract 13......We need to reach out to them and get their group to start banging our Contract 18 drum.............These are seasoned warriors fresh from the fight....They can bring some life to our slovenly, corpulent representation body and help us rise

ASpilot0936
04-04-2016, 04:48 PM
Lets hope that this merger will be handled like we actually are a true union...and not a spoiled brat, silver spoon, college boy tantrum...There are many long time union brothers at Virgin and in all likelyhood there MEC is a much stronger representative body than our own.....We have a huge hurdle ahead if we hope to ever have a contract that represents the value of our tradecraft......You can bet your last dollar that every single member of our current management from Brad down hopes we turn into a bunch of mewling selfish punks....more worried about paint jobs and upgrades and "career expectations".....and take our eye off the ball....our contract, due in 2018, is our last chance ever to get back what we gave, and elavate ourselves to the level we want and deserve

Hahaha 2013 was the contract to "get back what we gave" but what did you do? Vote yes most likely. Blinded by ALPAs threat of "you better vote yes or else..." koolaid.

Notaro can email all the feel good "we're all in this togetherness" koom by ya letters all he wants. There's no fooling me. I pay them to look out for ME, not virgin pilots. The virgin MEC will look to get as much progression on our list as they can. As they should. You honestly think that they're sitting there right now wondering about how they can protect the interest of the AS pilot? Those guys are all wondering right now if they should go hit vega$ because they all think they just hit the seniority jackpot. I pay my MEC to prevent them from doing so as much as possible. This "togetherness" mindset is a crock. This is business.

ORMtflyer
04-04-2016, 05:31 PM
What is the best guess on the transaction date as it applies to alpa SLI? When the operating certificate is integrated in 2018 or sooner?

2loud
04-04-2016, 05:33 PM
The blood hasn't even dried and we already have people whining like stuck pigs. You know who you are, "oh my vagina hurts" cry babies! SLI will be what it will be and none of us involved will have very little to no control over it. I feel for all ranks but especially the junior folks, no doubt.
Some of you feel extremely entitled, having spent over a decade at a regional or wherever before coming to Alaskan Airways. Guess what, everyone here has paid their dues one way or another so man up! We all bash the senior "I got mine" crowd but some of you act just like them. Like it or not, $hit just hit the fan for both pilot groups and neither of the groups wanted/asked for/dreamed of this so now, we deal with it like an adult. I hate to break it to you but life is not fair. I bet you didn't know that. For once, put yourself aside and try to put yourself in the shoes of a junior Virgin pilot or someone less junior to you. This is the exact sort of attitude that got us our current turd of a contract! True colors are coming out from the woodworks.
Btw, I'm pretty sure Klsytakesit voted NO on our last contract. I know it's just a web forum but you'll get no credibility when you spout off from your anus.

EskimoJoe
04-04-2016, 05:40 PM
I'm sure you'll say the same when you get bumped out of your base/seat.
If that happens, (highly unlikely) what am I supposed to do about it? Throw out ALPA? USAPA cost the us air pilots over a billion dollars in lost wages chasing their emotional pipe dream by tossing ALPA. I get it. I get the anger. It's not going to change anything. We need the focus on our own arguments and find every shred of leverage we have in this and not blow it...again.

FUDolphin
04-04-2016, 05:40 PM
I'm just here for the gang bang.:cool:

Bugaboo
04-04-2016, 05:47 PM
The blood hasn't even dried and we already have people whining like stuck pigs. You know who you are, "oh my vagina hurts" cry babies! SLI will be what it will be and none of us involved will have very little to no control over it. I feel for all ranks but especially the junior folks, no doubt.
Some of you feel extremely entitled, having spent over a decade at a regional or wherever before coming to Alaskan Airways. Guess what, everyone here has paid their dues one way or another so man up! We all bash the senior "I got mine" crowd but some of you act just like them. Like it or not, $hit just hit the fan for both pilot groups and neither of the groups wanted/asked for/dreamed of this so now, we deal with it like an adult. I hate to break it to you but life is not fair. I bet you didn't know that. For once, put yourself aside and try to put yourself in the shoes of a junior Virgin pilot or someone less junior to you. This is the exact sort of attitude that got us our current turd of a contract! True colors are coming out from the woodworks.
Btw, I'm pretty sure Klsytakesit voted NO on our last contract. I know it's just a web forum but you'll get no credibility when you spout off from your anus.

This!! I hope for all parties it goes as good as can be expected. Great guys on both sides so lets not get at each others throats. In a way im sure MGT would love to see that.

donwonton
04-04-2016, 05:50 PM
Some of you feel extremely entitled, having spent over a decade at a regional or wherever before coming to Alaskan Airways.

Wut? :confused:

Klsytakesit
04-04-2016, 06:14 PM
Most of the loudest, sniveling blowhards at Alaskan are the legacy brats and their tight buddies.....No doubt there will be changes in store....more for some than others....Thats how it is....and I do have a perfect record of no votes

2loud
04-04-2016, 07:10 PM
Wut? :confused:

Seriously dude?!?!
I won't get into details and start another argument, as some of ya'll just like to pick fights on these boards. EVERYONE paid their dues, whether you were a regional guy or a military bubba. Everyone has a sob story. Quite frankly, I'm tired of these guys who come up to me and tell me, "I didn't f-ing spend xx years at a regional for this". News flash.... no one made you give up your cushy regional job to come here. If the regional world was so cushy, why did you leave? You knew exactly what the pay rates/bennies were and what you were getting into, and now that your buddy who is at UAL, DAL, AA, FedEx, UPS, etc. are making a heck of lot more $$$ than you, you feel robbed, right? It's human nature and I totally get it. Really, I do. There are doers and then there's the entitled crowd.... you know, the loud mouth cry babies who won't do jack about their situation. I suggest that you either stay here and make things better or aggressively seek out your dream airline. I would if I were under 40 with less than 5 years on the property.
I'm no company man and this pilot group is weak and dysfunctional, I know. I whine with the best of them but I refuse to feel entitled. I'm here to stay and will do my best to make this place better for ALL pilots. The "association" nor the company will make it happen, so it's up to each of us to make things right. I choose to treat everyone with respect and compassion to the best of my abilities. I know a thing or two about trials and tribulations of life. I busted my a$$ since I was a kid and damn right, I've earned my place in life with a lot of help from the Man above.
Again, crying out of your anus gets you no where, even on a public forum. There are plenty of guys here on the property who've "paid" the price. Just ask the post Kasher survivors and worse yet, the folks who were furloughed. It will always be something, so get used to it.

ShyGuy
04-04-2016, 07:17 PM
There is no point to this thread. Clearly someone just created a new screen and started this thread to flame. Every AS pilot I've come across has been a fine gentleman (and gal once), and look forward to working with you all.

A330Checkairman
04-04-2016, 07:20 PM
If ALPA signs off on putting 9 year guys at the top of our list there's going to be he!! to pay....

VA pilots should not bump our Capt's or delay our upgrades. If they can't do anything else, then keeps the lists separate.
Im one of those senior VX guys. I am however very grateful that I will at atleast have a job since my beautiful wife of 26 years has only a few months to live. She won't be here to see the transition, but atleast she will know her husband can still support her children, get them through college, and hopefully have a great career at AS. I will take a right seat job and pull gear for you sir. I think you will appreciate my 30 years of experience and maybe buy me a beer. That's all I am asking.

mike734
04-04-2016, 07:55 PM
Im one of those senior VX guys. I am however very grateful that I will at atleast have a job since my beautiful wife of 26 years has only a few months to live. She won't be here to see the transition, but atleast she will know her husband can still support her children, get them through college, and hopefully have a great career at AS. I will take a right seat job and pull gear for you sir. I think you will appreciate my 30 years of experience and maybe buy me a beer. That's all I am asking.

BOOM! (Drops mic)

PrattFan
04-04-2016, 08:13 PM
If ALPA signs off on putting 9 year guys at the top of our list there's going to be he!! to pay....

VA pilots should not bump our Capt's or delay our upgrades. If they can't do anything else, then keeps the lists separate.

Dude, I think you left your real screen name in the other thread.

Cue the Alaska pilots calling for the VX pilots to be stapled, or integrated into their seniority list only from 2007 on in 3, 2, 1......

So when no one came through with your prediction you create a sock puppet, start a new thread and fulfill your prophecy yourself? Certainly by now you've gotten better at being a douche than this. :rolleyes:

Al Czervik
04-04-2016, 09:11 PM
In arbitration both sides walk a fine line by presenting what is most favorable to their interests without blatantly overreaching. ......

Oh, irony. Sweet irony. Does that mean "don't put a guy with 60 days on property above a 30 year guy?"

donwonton
04-04-2016, 09:31 PM
Seriously dude?!?!
I won't get into details and start another argument, as some of ya'll just like to pick fights on these boards. EVERYONE paid their dues, whether you were a regional guy or a military bubba. Everyone has a sob story. Quite frankly, I'm tired of these guys who come up to me and tell me, "I didn't f-ing spend xx years at a regional for this". News flash.... no one made you give up your cushy regional job to come here. If the regional world was so cushy, why did you leave? You knew exactly what the pay rates/bennies were and what you were getting into, and now that your buddy who is at UAL, DAL, AA, FedEx, UPS, etc. are making a heck of lot more $$$ than you, you feel robbed, right? It's human nature and I totally get it. Really, I do. There are doers and then there's the entitled crowd.... you know, the loud mouth cry babies who won't do jack about their situation. I suggest that you either stay here and make things better or aggressively seek out your dream airline. I would if I were under 40 with less than 5 years on the property.
I'm no company man and this pilot group is weak and dysfunctional, I know. I whine with the best of them but I refuse to feel entitled. I'm here to stay and will do my best to make this place better for ALL pilots. The "association" nor the company will make it happen, so it's up to each of us to make things right. I choose to treat everyone with respect and compassion to the best of my abilities. I know a thing or two about trials and tribulations of life. I busted my a$$ since I was a kid and damn right, I've earned my place in life with a lot of help from the Man above.
Again, crying out of your anus gets you no where, even on a public forum. There are plenty of guys here on the property who've "paid" the price. Just ask the post Kasher survivors and worse yet, the folks who were furloughed. It will always be something, so get used to it.

No, I was just having trouble understanding a blanket statement that seemed like an oxymoron. Like you said everyone's been through something, sometimes in aviation, sometimes not. And some have had a lot of good luck, so honestly not EVERYONE has paid their dues, if there is such a thing. There's a few bad apples out there, hopefully they don't spoil it for everyone else, sounds like you've run into quite a few. Good luck and cheers man.

Juan Trippe
04-04-2016, 10:34 PM
Im one of those senior VX guys. I am however very grateful that I will at atleast have a job since my beautiful wife of 26 years has only a few months to live. She won't be here to see the transition, but atleast she will know her husband can still support her children, get them through college, and hopefully have a great career at AS. I will take a right seat job and pull gear for you sir. I think you will appreciate my 30 years of experience and maybe buy me a beer. That's all I am asking.

Cheers A330Checkairman!

Packrat
04-04-2016, 11:03 PM
My only comment on this topic regards the term "career expectations."

The term originated at the ALPA BoD meeting in the mid-90s. It came about during the abortive attempt by United to merge with USAir. It was inserted in the ALPA Merger/Fragmentation Policy as a replacement for "Date of Hire."

Why? It was to protect United widebody Captain seats from senior USAir pilots. United, being the 900 lb. gorilla at the time, pushed the change through.

"Career Expectations" has nothing, repeat NOTHING to do with seniority position when two narrowbody airlines merge their seniority lists. It is ONLY there to exclude pilots who were not hired at airlines flying widebody equipment from upgrading on widebodies before that airline's pilots had their opportunity. That's where fences came from.

Including "No Bump, No Flush" language in the SLI agreement guarantees that no current AS or VX Captain would lose their seat until that individual voluntarily bids out of it. That seat would then be filled by the next senior bidder on the integrated seniority list however that may be determined.

One final thought...BOTH pilot groups should express to their respective MECs how they want a merged seniority list to look. Both MECs need to hire the best lawyer they can afford to participate in the negotiation. Then let your merger committees do their thing.

Debating the issue on this board is wasted bandwidth. This week in Germany, I witnessed a group of Atlas pilots debating AT LENGTH how the Southern pilots should be integrated into their list. A complete waste of time and the discussion got quite heated at some points.

While quite entertaining from a fly on the wall perspective, I couldn't help but wonder if it might have CRM ramifications down the road. Don't let yourself get wrapped up in meaningless worry/speculation. What will be will be and unless you're on the Merger Committee or the MEC there's very little you as an individual can do about it anyway.

qazWSX
04-05-2016, 12:36 AM
So a little tighter to the vest, I've beeen a "nicotine" addict for 30 years. Where will this leave me?

Packrat
04-05-2016, 12:56 AM
So a little tighter to the vest, I've beeen a "nicotine" addict for 30 years. Where will this leave me?

Shouldn't be an issue. You have to be a non-smoker to get hired but once on the property you can smoke. Go figure.

Sandhawk
04-05-2016, 04:03 AM
I think it will be a fairly relative integration...

I mean, it's not like you have a smaller carrier buying a dying legacy on its second trip thru bankruptcy with 1/3 of its entire pilot group furloughed with no future whatsoever...

As far as merger attorneys go, I believe that Alaska has Freund on retainer...

Good luck to all! It's gonna be a hell of a ride!

kg911
04-05-2016, 06:21 AM
Im one of those senior VX guys. I am however very grateful that I will at atleast have a job since my beautiful wife of 26 years has only a few months to live. She won't be here to see the transition, but atleast she will know her husband can still support her children, get them through college, and hopefully have a great career at AS. I will take a right seat job and pull gear for you sir. I think you will appreciate my 30 years of experience and maybe buy me a beer. That's all I am asking.

Thank you for providing some perspective. This sniveling me me me attitude doesn't work. I'm sorry for your situation and welcome all the Virgin pilots to Alaska. Let's hope for a fair and equitable merge of the seniority list for everyone.

sulkair
04-05-2016, 09:12 AM
The blood hasn't even dried and we already have people whining like stuck pigs. You know who you are, "oh my vagina hurts" cry babies! SLI will be what it will be and none of us involved will have very little to no control over it. I feel for all ranks but especially the junior folks, no doubt.
Some of you feel extremely entitled, having spent over a decade at a regional or wherever before coming to Alaskan Airways. Guess what, everyone here has paid their dues one way or another so man up! We all bash the senior "I got mine" crowd but some of you act just like them. Like it or not, $hit just hit the fan for both pilot groups and neither of the groups wanted/asked for/dreamed of this so now, we deal with it like an adult. I hate to break it to you but life is not fair. I bet you didn't know that. For once, put yourself aside and try to put yourself in the shoes of a junior Virgin pilot or someone less junior to you. This is the exact sort of attitude that got us our current turd of a contract! True colors are coming out from the woodworks.
Btw, I'm pretty sure Klsytakesit voted NO on our last contract. I know it's just a web forum but you'll get no credibility when you spout off from your anus.

Seriously dude?!?!
I won't get into details and start another argument, as some of ya'll just like to pick fights on these boards. EVERYONE paid their dues, whether you were a regional guy or a military bubba. Everyone has a sob story. Quite frankly, I'm tired of these guys who come up to me and tell me, "I didn't f-ing spend xx years at a regional for this". News flash.... no one made you give up your cushy regional job to come here. If the regional world was so cushy, why did you leave? You knew exactly what the pay rates/bennies were and what you were getting into, and now that your buddy who is at UAL, DAL, AA, FedEx, UPS, etc. are making a heck of lot more $$$ than you, you feel robbed, right? It's human nature and I totally get it. Really, I do. There are doers and then there's the entitled crowd.... you know, the loud mouth cry babies who won't do jack about their situation. I suggest that you either stay here and make things better or aggressively seek out your dream airline. I would if I were under 40 with less than 5 years on the property.
I'm no company man and this pilot group is weak and dysfunctional, I know. I whine with the best of them but I refuse to feel entitled. I'm here to stay and will do my best to make this place better for ALL pilots. The "association" nor the company will make it happen, so it's up to each of us to make things right. I choose to treat everyone with respect and compassion to the best of my abilities. I know a thing or two about trials and tribulations of life. I busted my a$$ since I was a kid and damn right, I've earned my place in life with a lot of help from the Man above.
Again, crying out of your anus gets you no where, even on a public forum. There are plenty of guys here on the property who've "paid" the price. Just ask the post Kasher survivors and worse yet, the folks who were furloughed. It will always be something, so get used to it.

2loud. Good posts. I usually can't hang with long ones like this, but these are worth it, even if they are 2loud ;) Honestly, you've almost got the meaning of life figured out here. Life isn't fair! The axiom that trumps all. The sooner a child figures this out, the happier adult he/she will become. I appreciate the words.

Going2Baja
04-05-2016, 11:52 AM
Im one of those senior VX guys. I am however very grateful that I will at atleast have a job since my beautiful wife of 26 years has only a few months to live. She won't be here to see the transition, but atleast she will know her husband can still support her children, get them through college, and hopefully have a great career at AS. I will take a right seat job and pull gear for you sir. I think you will appreciate my 30 years of experience and maybe buy me a beer. That's all I am asking.

I'll buy you that beer and I don't even work there anymore. Stay tough and hug those kids. The C word has taken many close to me and I dogged the bullet in Dec.

Baja.

putzin
04-05-2016, 12:59 PM
Im one of those senior VX guys. I am however very grateful that I will at atleast have a job since my beautiful wife of 26 years has only a few months to live. She won't be here to see the transition, but atleast she will know her husband can still support her children, get them through college, and hopefully have a great career at AS. I will take a right seat job and pull gear for you sir. I think you will appreciate my 30 years of experience and maybe buy me a beer. That's all I am asking.

Thoughts and prayers 330... Can't imagine and wish you great success with the merger.

Squawk 1277
04-07-2016, 08:01 PM
This thread is stupid and pointless. Big picture: pretty soon "us" and "them" will just be "us", and publicly griping about hypotheticals is antithetical to that goal. VA was expensive not just for the slots, but also for the front line employees who built an awesome, award winning brand. We are lucky to have them part of the team and to drive wedges between us and them at this point with emotional posts sends the wrong message. Let the negotiators or arbitrators do their work, forward your concerns to your MEC, and limit your negativity to private boards if you must vent. To our VA brothers and sisters: Cheers, glad to have you part of the family!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

DBCooper1968
04-07-2016, 09:53 PM
This thread is stupid and pointless. Big picture: pretty soon "us" and "them" will just be "us", and publicly griping about hypotheticals is antithetical to that goal. VA was expensive not just for the slots, but also for the front line employees who built an awesome, award winning brand. We are lucky to have them part of the team and to drive wedges between us and them at this point with emotional posts sends the wrong message. Let the negotiators or arbitrators do their work, forward your concerns to your MEC, and limit your negativity to private boards if you must vent. To our VA brothers and sisters: Cheers, glad to have you part of the family!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Very well said!! I hope we can avoid all the negativity and be focused and productive and move forward as one unified group. It is important that we don't get too side tracked in the SLI stuff and lose sight of what is really important at this point: The JCBA. This is where our focus needs to be right now moving forward and something we have a little more control of. We can waste years whining and fighting about the SLI until were in the next recession perhaps. Then we can look forward to a career of animosity and bitterness toward each other after that. I've lived it at other airlines and it ain't fun and I'd hate to see it happen here at Alaska. There is real benefit to working together on a new contract soon that will benefit us all. Welcome to the Virgin pilots!

DCA A321 FO
04-07-2016, 09:57 PM
If ALPA signs off on putting 9 year guys at the top of our list there's going to be he!! to pay....

VA pilots should not bump our Capt's or delay our upgrades. If they can't do anything else, then keeps the lists separate.

Your screen name is missing a "S"

Juan Trippe
04-07-2016, 10:29 PM
Your screen name is missing a "S"
.....an "S" (if we're correcting)

MusicPilot
04-08-2016, 07:15 AM
Your screen name is missing a "S"

.....an "S" (if we're correcting)

maybe students should just join APC for English lessons.

ASpilot0936
04-29-2016, 11:29 AM
Im one of those senior VX guys. I am however very grateful that I will at atleast have a job since my beautiful wife of 26 years has only a few months to live. She won't be here to see the transition, but atleast she will know her husband can still support her children, get them through college, and hopefully have a great career at AS. I will take a right seat job and pull gear for you sir. I think you will appreciate my 30 years of experience and maybe buy me a beer. That's all I am asking.

Trying to gain sympathy through your sob stories won't work on me. I don't care about your personal life as much as I expect you to care about mine. And your 30 years of experience don't mean jack and you know it. That's going to be the first argument from the VA guys. "My 20+ years of experience at airline X should count during SLI even if it wasn't at VA." All so you can gain leverage and add to the 9 years that really does count. Nice try though.

sulkair
04-29-2016, 12:05 PM
Trying to gain sympathy through your sob stories won't work on me. I don't care about your personal life as much as I expect you to care about mine. And your 30 years of experience don't mean jack and you know it. That's going to be the first argument from the VA guys. "My 20+ years of experience at airline X should count during SLI even if it wasn't at VA." All so you can gain leverage and add to the 9 years that really does count. Nice try though.

You are one cold hearted individual! Whatever you think he was trying to insinuate with his post, it's plain to see he was simply expressing his gratefulness and cathartically sharing some of his pain. You don't care, but plenty of others might appreciate his olive branch. And his 30 year remark didn't even come close to implying that it should get him seniority, but only that he would be a useful crew-member.

PokerPilot007
04-29-2016, 01:43 PM
Trying to gain sympathy through your sob stories won't work on me. I don't care about your personal life as much as I expect you to care about mine. And your 30 years of experience don't mean jack and you know it. That's going to be the first argument from the VA guys. "My 20+ years of experience at airline X should count during SLI even if it wasn't at VA." All so you can gain leverage and add to the 9 years that really does count. Nice try though.

You sir are an embarrassment to your pilot group and our profession. It's attitudes like yours that have destroyed the career we have all sacrificed and fought to protect. With that being said, if you ever find yourself needing a helping hand, you can count on me and all the pilots at VX to support you. That's what the VX family does.

2bInfinite
04-29-2016, 02:00 PM
Trying to gain sympathy through your sob stories won't work on me. I don't care about your personal life as much as I expect you to care about mine. And your 30 years of experience don't mean jack and you know it. That's going to be the first argument from the VA guys. "My 20+ years of experience at airline X should count during SLI even if it wasn't at VA." All so you can gain leverage and add to the 9 years that really does count. Nice try though.

There is zero chance ASpilot0936 is a pilot at Alaska Air. Just my opinion.

AJ Crowley
04-29-2016, 05:53 PM
Don't feed the troll!

svergin
04-29-2016, 08:43 PM
Trying to gain sympathy through your sob stories won't work on me. I don't care about your personal life as much as I expect you to care about mine. And your 30 years of experience don't mean jack and you know it. That's going to be the first argument from the VA guys. "My 20+ years of experience at airline X should count during SLI even if it wasn't at VA." All so you can gain leverage and add to the 9 years that really does count. Nice try though.

Longevity won't matter much anyway. Two narrow body fleets merging will be pretty close to relative seniority with a couple percentage skew for time on property like UAL CAL probably.

I predict everyone ends up within 5% of the pre-SLI seniority.

EskimoJoe
04-30-2016, 02:33 AM
Longevity won't matter much anyway. Two narrow body fleets merging will be pretty close to relative seniority with a couple percentage skew for time on property like UAL CAL probably.

I predict everyone ends up within 5% of the pre-SLI seniority.
Tilden better pray the 8 year VX guys aren't integrated with a 30+ year Alaska Captains.

Mudhen200
04-30-2016, 06:27 AM
Tilden better pray the 8 year VX guys aren't integrated with a 30+ year Alaska Captains.

Truth. And there is the rub.

The old guard are the sky gods. Anybody with a 30 + year pin around here is just different than the rank and file. I have seen that most of them have been smart with their money and really just work because they want to. Most are happy men / women. They have been there and done that to the point that they know what's going on with this company. They get time off (that most of us can't) by instructing or doing some other kind of "company business", they play golf with the right people and sometimes simply making a phone call to their other buddy of 30 + years, who is in charge of this or that, gets them just about anything they want.

Now if a Virgin comes in hear and ends up senior to a 15 year Native, there will be grumbles. If a Virgin comes in here and ends up senior to a 20 year Native, the torches will be lit. If a Virgin comes in here and ends up in our top 10%, Lord help us. The sky gods will burn down Brad's house! Then the wheels will fall off the cart for years until all the sky god's retire.

In what universe can a man with 9 years service expect to be equal (in seniority) to a man with 30+ years? But that may very will happen and there is not a darn thing any of us can do to stop it. So - if it happens, there will be Virgins who literally hit the jackpot. If there is any justice in the universe, I hope it's they fella who is loosing his wife, or the guy who has had an especially hard career or at the very least - someone who respects and understands that in no way are they deserving of the seniority number that they have been given.

But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.

flywest
04-30-2016, 06:58 AM
Truth. And there is the rub.

The old guard are the sky gods. Anybody with a 30 + year pin around here is just different than the rank and file. I have seen that most of them have been smart with their money and really just work because they want to. Most are happy men / women. They have been there and done that to the point that they know what's going on with this company. They get time off (that most of us can't) by instructing or doing some other kind of "company business", they play golf with the right people and sometimes simply making a phone call to their other buddy of 30 + years, who is in charge of this or that, gets them just about anything they want.

Now if a Virgin comes in hear and ends up senior to a 15 year Native, there will be grumbles. If a Virgin comes in here and ends up senior to a 20 year Native, the torches will be lit. If a Virgin comes in here and ends up in our top 10%, Lord help us. The sky gods will burn down Brad's house! Then the wheels will fall off the cart for years until all the sky god's retire.

In what universe can a man with 9 years service expect to be equal (in seniority) to a man with 30+ years? But that may very will happen and there is not a darn thing any of us can do to stop it. So - if it happens, there will be Virgins who literally hit the jackpot. If there is any justice in the universe, I hope it's they fella who is loosing his wife, or the guy who has had an especially hard career or at the very least - someone who respects and understands that in no way are they deserving of the seniority number that they have been given.

But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.

If the top 1/3 maybe even top 1/2 of Alaska's list get's screwed. The labor discord will be very real.

Klsytakesit
04-30-2016, 09:09 AM
It is incredible how immature and selfish the Alaska pilot group has always been and will always be.......Our attention to me first certainly shows in the mom&pop contract we work under........At seventeen years , I hope to see some New Co-Workers above me on the seniority list...And I hope all Alaska Pilots...All 2600 or so of us stay focused on landing a contract that has us at the very top of our industry in pay retirement work rules etc.....we need to be a unified group inorder to fight against BradBenetall....and win....they are the enemy not the union brothers and sisters who are joining us from Virgin

R57 relay
04-30-2016, 09:35 AM
Tilden better pray the 8 year VX guys aren't integrated with a 30+ year Alaska Captains.

Wait a minute! Wait a minute! Aren't you the angry ex-westie that touted the Nicolau award? You know, the one where guys with 17 years uninterrupted service went junior to guys that were in indoctrination when the merger was announced. :eek:

Karma.

GangtaMoose
04-30-2016, 01:55 PM
tilden isnt involved because its the alpa merger policy. and why wouldnt there be virgin guys in the top 10% of the new alaska. career expectations on both sides are just narrowbody captain becauz there are no widebodies. it seems that some alaska guys here actually think the most senor virgin guy will show up no worse than a 2004 slotting on the new list. that is a straight windfall for alaska and simply wont happen. just take your ego out of it. in arbitration its most likely going to be straight relative with adjusted ratios favoring the alaska side for higher longevity. something like straight relative and then a 5 to 20% hit for the virgin guys. ironically some of the anti alpa pilots at virgin are the ex us air guys but now the tune has changed once the tables are turned. gotta wonder if their usapa doh mantra still rings true for them.

GangtaMoose
04-30-2016, 01:58 PM
If the top 1/3 maybe even top 1/2 of Alaska's list get's screwed. The labor discord will be very real.

what are you going to do. you cant pull a usapa. seriously just take a deep breathe and let the process play itself out. youll save yorself a lot of money on antacids that way.

EskimoJoe
04-30-2016, 02:31 PM
It is incredible how immature and selfish the Alaska pilot group has always been and will always be.......Our attention to me first certainly shows in the mom&pop contract we work under........At seventeen years , I hope to see some New Co-Workers above me on the seniority list...And I hope all Alaska Pilots...All 2600 or so of us stay focused on landing a contract that has us at the very top of our industry in pay retirement work rules etc.....we need to be a unified group inorder to fight against BradBenetall....and win....they are the enemy not the union brothers and sisters who are joining us from Virgin
One naive MF.

Klsytakesit
04-30-2016, 02:35 PM
One naive MF.

You are absolutely right college boy

8v8ter
04-30-2016, 07:41 PM
There is zero chance ASpilot0936 is a pilot at Alaska Air. Just my opinion.

Agreed! take your hate elsewhere.

Aloha
05-03-2016, 07:37 AM
Just review what Southwest did to AirTran.
Smaller scale because of the size difference between in the two airlines.

The VA Captains should all be prepared to lose every Captain Seat.
Every VA pilot should expect and welcome a major seniority loss
and...

very sorry to see what one pilot group is about to do to another.

Brake,
Please remember, in the first offer SWA offered all AT captains to keep their seats - and the offer was rejected -BY AT union pilot representation. After this rejection, SWA management stepped and played hard ball with AT.

I think this merger will be an ugly one. For the sake of your health and your joy, spend less time on this forum and more time with your families. Mergers are terrible, terrible thigs to go through.

plt32173
05-03-2016, 10:42 AM
Brake,
Please remember, in the first offer SWA offered all AT captains to keep their seats - and the offer was rejected -BY AT union pilot representation. After this rejection, SWA management stepped and played hard ball with AT.

I think this merger will be an ugly one. For the sake of your health and your joy, spend less time on this forum and more time with your families. Mergers are terrible, terrible thigs to go through.

This is great advice. I'd say more than half the guys and gals at Virgin have been through mergers/buyouts before and almost all our doing as Aloha suggested. Just chill. Enjoy your time at home. Don't waste time worrying bout things you can't control.

Let's focus on getting a great JCBA and move forward as Alaska pilots.

svergin
05-03-2016, 01:41 PM
Brake,
Please remember, in the first offer SWA offered all AT captains to keep their seats - and the offer was rejected -BY AT union pilot representation. After this rejection, SWA management stepped and played hard ball with AT.

I think this merger will be an ugly one. For the sake of your health and your joy, spend less time on this forum and more time with your families. Mergers are terrible, terrible thigs to go through.

Except SWA AT isn't a fair comparison. They were different unions. AS VX are both ALPA. There is already a policy in place. It's going to look a lot like everyone staying in their seats and close to relative seniority with a slight adjustment for longevity.

Yes mergers are terrible, but if you believe your superior airline grants you some kind of advantage, it doesn't. That's not anywhere in the policy.

Packrat
05-03-2016, 01:44 PM
Relative seniority would be a huge windfall for VX pilots. That is specifically prohibited by ALPA Merger/Frag policy.

1. No bump/no flush.
2. Ratio after 2007.

That's fair.

Frip
05-03-2016, 04:08 PM
Oh, irony. Sweet irony. Does that mean "don't put a guy with 60 days on property above a 30 year guy?"

That would be a hit of a stretch

A guy who walked into class yesterday above a couple hundred Captains?

That's ok...

GangtaMoose
05-03-2016, 06:24 PM
Relative seniority would be a huge windfall for VX pilots. That is specifically prohibited by ALPA Merger/Frag policy.

1. No bump/no flush.
2. Ratio after 2007.

That's fair.

according to your method the first virgin guy shows up in the 2007 doh range. fair to you is a windfall for alaska pilots.

Packrat
05-04-2016, 03:11 AM
according to your method the first virgin guy shows up in the 2007 doh range. fair to you is a windfall for alaska pilots.

No VX pilot had a job prior to 2007. What is it about that you can't understand?

No bump, no flush guarantees the VX pilots all keep their Capt seats. Every single VX Capt would be the junior Capt on the combined system.

A 2007 ratio would put the average VX pilot ahead of the 2007 Alaska pilots simply because there are more of them. A windfall for VX, all be it a lesser one. Additionally, that system makes it more equitable when AS dumps the Bus if there happens to be a furlough.

There is no way, NO WAY relative seniority is anything but an enormous windfall for VX pilots, especially considering the relative age of the groups involved.

biigD
05-04-2016, 05:20 AM
As an outsider, I have a question:

At my airline, my QOL is dependent on my seniority percentage in my seat. So if I want to avoid reserve, I better be in the top 70% or so. Weekends off? Maybe top 30%. My actual seniority number is completely irrelevant to this.

So with this in mind, I don't understand why a straight relative integration is such a windfall for VX. Everyone's percentage stays exactly the same, for both VX and AS pilots. If you had weekends off before, you still have them off. I completely understand that it feels unfair for some young kid at his young airline to get slotted next to an old timer at the old airline, but from a QOL standpoint, what actually changes for the old timer? Is the argument just purely emotional?

If you use the integration method I'm hearing from the AS guys here, you're gonna have a lot of captains at VX used to specific QOL, such as weekends and holidays off, and you're gonna make them all junior again. Their QOL will be destroyed.

So one method affects nobody's QOL, while another destroys a large segment of VX pilots' QOL. How is *that* fair?

EDIT: I promise I'm not trying to start any crap - I'm just curious about what I'm missing! :)

svergin
05-04-2016, 07:12 AM
No VX pilot had a job prior to 2007. What is it about that you can't understand?

No bump, no flush guarantees the VX pilots all keep their Capt seats. Every single VX Capt would be the junior Capt on the combined system.

A 2007 ratio would put the average VX pilot ahead of the 2007 Alaska pilots simply because there are more of them. A windfall for VX, all be it a lesser one. Additionally, that system makes it more equitable when AS dumps the Bus if there happens to be a furlough.

There is no way, NO WAY relative seniority is anything but an enormous windfall for VX pilots, especially considering the relative age of the groups involved.

Maybe you should talk with the UAL merger guys. They said the exact same thing and 2005 CAL hires were put ahead of 1998 UAL hires and guess what? They were 7 years YOUNGER on average. Do you know why? Status and Category (which was pretty close to relative seniority).

Sorry but it's your Union merger policy. Age of the pilots isn't a factor there.

tzskipper
05-04-2016, 07:35 AM
Maybe you should talk with the UAL merger guys. They said the exact same thing and 2005 CAL hires were put ahead of 1998 UAL hires and guess what? They were 7 years YOUNGER on average. Do you know why? Status and Category (which was pretty close to relative seniority).

Sorry but it's your Union merger policy. Age of the pilots isn't a factor there.


Maybe a review of the actual award would be beneficial. No dog in this hunt, but thought these two links may help. It appears that Eischen (the Arbitrator) did apply ALPA merger policy in his final decision (Google is my friend :)).

ALPA policy synopsis

http://www3.alpa.org/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=WpYTk6T1Hs0%3D&tabid=3345

UAL/CAL Eischen award

http://ual.alpa.org/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=aW2PEPbXqsk=

Hope this helps.

S

GangtaMoose
05-04-2016, 07:57 AM
packrat,

virgin didn't fly before 2007. what you are doing is equating the equivalent of doh. doh hasnt been used in any of the recent mergers. first of all making every single vx capt as junior capt is a windfall for alaska. second point is that no bump no flush only works if the 60 airbuses stick around. what if alaska announces replacing the buses with new boeings on a one one ratio. all 60 buses gone and 60 new boeings would mean every vx capt then loses their spot to alaska pilots. alaska hired about 550 pilots 2007-2016 of the 1750 total. your method would put the most senior virgin pilot at about 1200 total on the list which is already junior to the most junior alaska captain. thats a huge windfall and only fair in your eyes or the eyes of another alaska pilot. it won't be straight relative either. most likely its going to be category/class with ratios favoring alaska for the higher longevity and stronger contract they bring to the merger. you can read up on previuos alpa-alpa merger arbitration award. we havent even started yet and you are already calling for a staple of all vx captains on the combined list with a fenced protection on their own airbuses. planes can come and go but seniority is forever so no one is going to sign off on your staple job.

mike734
05-04-2016, 10:21 AM
Imagine Virgin was formed in 2015 and Alaska immediately bought them. Would there be any argument for their Captains merging in to the Alaska seniority list anywhere but the bottom? 2007 was yesterday in my eyes. DOH would still be a tremendous windfall for Virgin pilots. Whatever the list ends up being, it should include some sort of protection for Alaskas furloughed pilots.

GangtaMoose
05-04-2016, 11:26 AM
Imagine Virgin was formed in 2015 and Alaska immediately bought them. Would there be any argument for their Captains merging in to the Alaska seniority list anywhere but the bottom? 2007 was yesterday in my eyes. DOH would still be a tremendous windfall for Virgin pilots. Whatever the list ends up being, it should include some sort of protection for Alaskas furloughed pilots.

doh is a tremendous windfall for virgin pilots. lol. i think in the DSM volume V that is called delusions of grandeur.

Packrat
05-04-2016, 12:31 PM
Well, I have no dog in the fight either. I just think its amusing that 2007 hire VX pilots think they are entitled to be put on the list next to 1985 AS hires. Entitled being the operative word.

Bugaboo
05-04-2016, 01:30 PM
Well, I have no dog in the fight either. I just think its amusing that 2007 hire VX pilots think they are entitled to be put on the list next to 1985 AS hires. Entitled being the operative word.

Where are you getting this from Pack? I know many 2007 hires at VA....not a single one of them are EXPECTING anything and are far from feeling entitled. If anyone is acting entitled I would say it is you. You sound very paranoid.....maybe for a good reason.
Aint ****e you can do about it anyway except for making your feelings known to your MEC and let them take it from there.

full of luv
05-04-2016, 02:21 PM
Where are you getting this from Pack? I know many 2007 hires at VA....not a single one of them are EXPECTING anything and are far from feeling entitled. If anyone is acting entitled I would say it is you. You sound very paranoid.....maybe for a good reason.
Aint ****e you can do about it anyway except for making your feelings known to your MEC and let them take it from there.

Well if the VA MEC doesn't offer straight relative position, and the ALK MEC doesn't offer straight DOH, I'd be shocked. That would be like a lawyer going to court and offering to concede half the case to the court.

If ALPA were smart they'd make future mergers "baseball style" arbitrations, (wherein each party puts forth an integration and the mediator just picks one or the other, no changes) that would force both sides to make strategic concessions in their own proposals before presenting to a negotiator for fear of getting put out to pasture by the mediator. Then each sides MEC would at least set a reasonable expectation in their membership.

The way it works now, each side shoots for the moon and tries to justify their position and it serves to pit the two groups at odds for years to come.

HangOn
05-04-2016, 05:57 PM
Where are you getting this from Pack? I know many 2007 hires at VA....not a single one of them are EXPECTING anything and are far from feeling entitled. If anyone is acting entitled I would say it is you. You sound very paranoid.....maybe for a good reason.
Aint ****e you can do about it anyway except for making your feelings known to your MEC and let them take it from there.

Bugaboo,

When the Rat says he has no dog in the fight, he means it. He no longer works at AS.

GangtaMoose
05-04-2016, 08:48 PM
Bugaboo,

When the Rat says he has no dog in the fight, he means it. He no longer works at AS.

packrat where did you go? is attrition to another airline something that happens at alaska. thats not something i thought would happen much for a carrier such as this.

FlyAK
05-07-2016, 05:41 AM
packrat where did you go? is attrition to another airline something that happens at alaska. thats not something i thought would happen much for a carrier such as this.

Gangta... Could you please post those year by year hiring numbers for VX? I posted the Alaska numbers as a courtesy, could you please do the same? Thanks!

Mea25000
05-11-2016, 11:58 AM
I have a dog in the fight.. To be honest I was hired at a very young age at AS. My seniority would have left me #1 at AS for almost three years. Now who knows. To be honest, I don't really care all that much. I am already a CA and really hope from this merger we all get one thing and that is paid $$$. I do honestly look at it and feel like VA guys and gals are getting a windfall in Pay, Retirement, Vacation, Medical, Stability, and Sick leave. I guess as an AS pilot all I will achieve is a raise and that I would have received anyways, just a little further down the road. (and yes VA pilots would also have received a raise on their own but no where near the one they are about to receive). So I guess, I do think AS pilots should get a way better deal in SLI. But Hey, I guess I am an AS pilot so my opinions, I am sure are biased. All in all though I am excited about this merger, the opportunity it provides for all of our careers. So welcome my VA brothers and sisters, I sincerely wish only for the best for us all.

EskimoJoe
05-12-2016, 04:51 AM
I have a dog in the fight.. To be honest I was hired at a very young age at AS. My seniority would have left me #1 at AS for almost three years. Now who knows. To be honest, I don't really care all that much. I am already a CA and really hope from this merger we all get one thing and that is paid $$$. I do honestly look at it and feel like VA guys and gals are getting a windfall in Pay, Retirement, Vacation, Medical, Stability, and Sick leave. I guess as an AS pilot all I will achieve is a raise and that I would have received anyways, just a little further down the road. (and yes VA pilots would also have received a raise on their own but no where near the one they are about to receive). So I guess, I do think AS pilots should get a way better deal in SLI. But Hey, I guess I am an AS pilot so my opinions, I am sure are biased. All in all though I am excited about this merger, the opportunity it provides for all of our careers. So welcome my VA brothers and sisters, I sincerely wish only for the best for us all.

I wish everyone the best as well. None of us asked for this. However,
Here's the reality of the situation: There is very little in any of this for the Legacy Alaska Pilots. VX get's a windfall pretty much on everything. Alaska Pilots might get a few hundred more after-tax dollars a paycheck. I've been around awhile and I'm not at all confident that our Management is going to offer anything close to the JCBA the Alaska Pilots have in mind. Reality: The VX guys would ratify what we have NOW. Management knows that so I wouldn't get my hopes up. So Alaska pilots will get a little more money. That's it. Is Seniority worth that? Not to me. There is *no reason* to ratify anything any time soon. I think it's more likely to see Jr Alaska people bail out of here in droves after they get screwed on seniority and are handed a 51% ratified garbage contract.

Ratification of a JCBA is the lynch pin to this entire deal. Everyone needs it. Everyone BUT the Alaska Pilots that is. Think about it.

plt32173
05-12-2016, 07:28 AM
I wish everyone the best as well. None of us asked for this. However,
Here's the reality of the situation: There is very little in any of this for the Legacy Alaska Pilots. VX get's a windfall pretty much on everything. Alaska Pilots might get a few hundred more after-tax dollars a paycheck. I've been around awhile and I'm not at all confident that our Management is going to offer anything close to the JCBA the Alaska Pilots have in mind. Reality: The VX guys would ratify what we have NOW. Management knows that so I wouldn't get my hopes up. So Alaska pilots will get a little more money. That's it. Is Seniority worth that? Not to me. There is *no reason* to ratify anything any time soon. I think it's more likely to see Jr Alaska people bail out of here in droves after they get screwed on seniority and are handed a 51% ratified garbage contract.

Ratification of a JCBA is the lynch pin to this entire deal. Everyone needs it. Everyone BUT the Alaska Pilots that is. Think about it.
Agree with most of this. And this most likely won't be our last merger buyout.

We 100% will support your efforts. There is a reason our union drive set records. We are unified and ready to fight for a great jcba.

That being said, None of the Virgin pilots would ratify the what you have now. The scope is unacceptable. Scope is one of our most important issues to protect our future. Alaska pilots should be flying the E175.

gettinbumped
05-12-2016, 02:27 PM
Well if the VA MEC doesn't offer straight relative position, and the ALK MEC doesn't offer straight DOH, I'd be shocked. That would be like a lawyer going to court and offering to concede half the case to the court.

If ALPA were smart they'd make future mergers "baseball style" arbitrations, (wherein each party puts forth an integration and the mediator just picks one or the other, no changes) that would force both sides to make strategic concessions in their own proposals before presenting to a negotiator for fear of getting put out to pasture by the mediator. Then each sides MEC would at least set a reasonable expectation in their membership.

The way it works now, each side shoots for the moon and tries to justify their position and it serves to pit the two groups at odds for years to come.

Actually, the way it will work is this. Whichever side gets Katz will offer a moon shot. Whichever side gets Freund will offer a middle of the road offer with some slight improvements. And then the mediators will land very close to Freund's proposal. Happens every time

cactusmike
05-12-2016, 03:55 PM
Well if the VA MEC doesn't offer straight relative position, and the ALK MEC doesn't offer straight DOH, I'd be shocked. That would be like a lawyer going to court and offering to concede half the case to the court.

If ALPA were smart they'd make future mergers "baseball style" arbitrations, (wherein each party puts forth an integration and the mediator just picks one or the other, no changes) that would force both sides to make strategic concessions in their own proposals before presenting to a negotiator for fear of getting put out to pasture by the mediator. Then each sides MEC would at least set a reasonable expectation in their membership.

The way it works now, each side shoots for the moon and tries to justify their position and it serves to pit the two groups at odds for years to come.

That's not actually correct. Some groups do shoot for the moon but they get shot down instead. CAL in the CAL/UAL merger, US Air in the AWA/US merger as examples.

The arbitrators do not choose one side or the other. They look at the proposal, the facts of the situation and the proposed seniority methodology and they make their decision based on that. The actual seniority list is based on the methodology that the arbitrator decides fits the situation.

You are correct in that expectations can be raised when there is no conceivable way that they can be met. Arrogance and ignorance is a bad combination in a SLI. I've seen it first hand. But the butthurt from a perceived injustice won't last forever unless there is a methodology that perpetuates a split in the pilot groups. NWA/Republic is probably the poster child for that. Or the Air Tran/SWA hammer method of seniority integration. Once the groups are combined and people are free to bid wherever they want using the SLI that is arbitrated then people will lose the hostility. Keeping groups separate is what breeds hostility.

Typhoonpilot
05-12-2016, 04:00 PM
That's not actually correct. Some groups do shoot for the moon but they get shot down instead. CAL in the CAL/UAL merger, AWA in the AWA/US merger as examples.

The arbitrators do not choose one side or the other. They look at the proposal, the facts of the situation and the proposed seniority methodology and they make their decision based on that. The actual seniority list is based on the methodology that the arbitrator decides fits the situation.

You are correct in that expectations can be raised when there is no conceivable way that they can be met. Arrogance and ignorance is a bad combination in a SLI. I've seen it first hand. But the butthurt from a perceived injustice won't last forever unless there is a methodology that perpetuates a split in the pilot groups. NWA/Republic is probably the poster child for that. Or the Air Tran/SWA hammer method of seniority integration. Once the groups are combined and people are free to bid wherever they want using the SLI that is arbitrated then people will lose the hostility. Keeping groups separate is what breeds hostility.



Fixed it for you Mike :D


TP

svergin
05-12-2016, 05:18 PM
Actually, the way it will work is this. Whichever side gets Katz will offer a moon shot. Whichever side gets Freund will offer a middle of the road offer with some slight improvements. And then the mediators will land very close to Freund's proposal. Happens every time

I think VX should just propose a 1-for-1 integration the way my merger committee did because that made so much sense when the other airline had 3,000 more pilots and 3x more widebodies.

FlyAK
05-12-2016, 06:47 PM
I wonder what the Virgin guys think would be fair? Do they honestly think a relative seniority mix would be fair? What about in regards to Alaska's 9-10-11 year fo's? Would it be fair to integrate them with 2012/13 hires? If that's fair why not integrate Vx's 9 year captains with our 9 year captains in Anchorage? Just thinking out loud...

Klsytakesit
05-12-2016, 09:01 PM
Not a union man amongst all of you....shameful.....united we(alpa pilots) stand, divided we( alpa pilots) fall....alaska management is what is standing in the way of Alaska pilots( all of them) having a meaningful and rewarding career. Dont any of you silverspoon, white collar college boys and girls forget it!!!!!

svergin
05-13-2016, 07:24 AM
I wonder what the Virgin guys think would be fair? Do they honestly think a relative seniority mix would be fair? What about in regards to Alaska's 9-10-11 year fo's? Would it be fair to integrate them with 2012/13 hires? If that's fair why not integrate Vx's 9 year captains with our 9 year captains in Anchorage? Just thinking out loud...

It's not fair. It's just Union policy. The UAL pilot one number behind me on our seniority list was hired 7+ years before me. Why? Because it ended up mostly relative seniority despite the large number of "jumbo" aircraft UAL had. I dropped about 3 percent from where I was pre-merger to the combined list. You can see Union policy is built to maintain relative percentage over longevity.

If you're banking on the "we are a superior airline and they all get raises, etc" tell that to my friends at SWA hired when I was hired at CAL who are still FOs and now telling me that 5 years have been tacked onto their upgrade because of all the AT pilots placed ahead of them on the list. No question SWA had a better contract than AT by far.

Good luck fellow ALPA pilots.

Packrat
05-13-2016, 01:31 PM
Then I'd say YOU got a windfall gain in seniority.

svergin
05-13-2016, 03:59 PM
Then I'd say YOU got a windfall gain in seniority.

I lost relative percentage. I don't see how that's a windfall gain. My percentage was all I cared about. It's not my fault UAL had pilots with more longevity at my percentage. That just showed how stagnant things were there. Our upgrade time to Captain was 4 years, at UAL it was 16 years. That's why relative percentage is a big factor.

Packrat
05-13-2016, 06:12 PM
Percentage is B.S. You gained 7 years seniority on the guy who is now stuck behind you for the rest of his career. That's a windfall by definition.

By your reasoning the #1 VX Capt. should be listed next to the #1 AS Capt. who has 25 years seniority over him. He should be bidding over at least 200 AS pilots with 20 or more years of seniority? Sorry, I call B.S. on that.

Tom a Hawk
05-13-2016, 07:43 PM
That's why mergers suck, dude.

GangtaMoose
05-13-2016, 08:08 PM
Percentage is B.S. You gained 7 years seniority on the guy who is now stuck behind you for the rest of his career. That's a windfall by definition.

By your reasoning the #1 VX Capt. should be listed next to the #1 AS Capt. who has 25 years seniority over him. He should be bidding over at least 200 AS pilots with 20 or more years of seniority? Sorry, I call B.S. on that.

percentage isnt bs. the number one mistake pilots make is look at their doh and cling to that like their first born child. doh in mergers becomes largely irrelevant. it all ends up being category and class, longevity, and career expectations. your assumption that doh is fair only works when both pilot groups are relatively the same age, longevity, with similar hiring sprees and likewise spread among pilots for widebody and narrowbody. in the end percentages matter. you are right that the number one virgin guy won't go next to the number one alaska. most likely the arbitrators will give alaska a decent preference in the sli because of much higher longevity. you might see something like the first 200 positions on the list are all alaska pilots. the next 200 positions are the first 50 virgin and the next 150 alaska guys with a ratio starting with an alaska guy, and the next 300 positions are the next 200 alaska guys and 100 virgin guys, starting with an alaska guy. so on so forth

there is no doubt that this is an extremely tough merger for two main reasons. both groups have same career expectation of narrowbody captain. it would be a lot easier if alaska had widebodies but as it stands narrowbody domestic captain is the career expectation of all. and the biggest factor of course is the skewed longevity with a much more senior group from an airline that has been around for many decades versus one that has been flying around for just about 9 years.

Nantonaku
05-13-2016, 08:15 PM
percentage isnt bs. the number one mistake pilots make is look at their doh and cling to that like their first born child. doh in mergers becomes largely irrelevant. it all ends up being category and class, longevity, and career expectations. your assumption that doh is fair only works when both pilot groups are relatively the same age, longevity, with similar hiring sprees and likewise spread among pilots for widebody and narrowbody. in the end percentages matter. you are right that the number one virgin guy won't go next to the number one alaska. most likely the arbitrators will give alaska a decent preference in the sli because of much higher longevity. you might see something like the first 200 positions on the list are all alaska pilots. the next 200 positions are the first 50 virgin and the next 150 alaska guys with a ratio starting with an alaska guy, and the next 300 positions are the next 200 alaska guys and 100 virgin guys, starting with an alaska guy. so on so forth

That is because everything in this industry is about seniority and is based on your DOH. Pass travel benefits priority = based on DOH. Pay = based on DOH. Vacation = based on DOH. Upgrades/base bidding = normally based on DOH. Monthly schedules = based on DOH. Then you have seniority in a merger = based on what some lawyer who is totally clueless about the airline industry thinks is fair. Hopefully the future is bright enough that in the end it won't matter.

GangtaMoose
05-13-2016, 08:33 PM
That is because everything in this industry is about seniority and is based on your DOH. Pass travel benefits priority = based on DOH. Pay = based on DOH. Vacation = based on DOH. Upgrades/base bidding = normally based on DOH. Monthly schedules = based on DOH. Then you have seniority in a merger = based on what some lawyer who is totally clueless about the airline industry thinks is fair. Hopefully the future is bright enough that in the end it won't matter.

doh works like that because you are looking at within that own airline for all those things you just said. its uniform and consistently in order but again only for this one company. you get two companies involved and doing a doh is largely almost never a fair and equitable result. neither is stapling and neither is straight relative.

Packrat
05-14-2016, 05:38 AM
...and the biggest factor of course is the skewed longevity with a much more senior group from an airline that has been around for many decades versus one that has been flying around for just about 9 years.

This is exactly why you slot the 9 year VX Captains with the 9 year AS Captains and ratio the list down from there. But I'm pretty sure you're gonna have VX guys make the argument, "My career expectation was to be the #1 Captain on my SLI, so I should go to the top of the AS list."

Sorry, but that's not even close to what ALPA defines as "career expectations." Career expectations means the expectation of holding a wide body position PERIOD. Since neither of these two airlines have wide bodies, the whole career expectations argument is a moot point. You cannot extrapolate the term to mean something YOU think it is....retirement position, seniority number, non-rev status, etc. It means one thing and one thing only: When you got hired did your airline have wide bodies on the property?

ArcticDog
05-14-2016, 06:27 AM
This is exactly why you slot the 9 year VX Captains with the 9 year AS Captains and ratio the list down from there. But I'm pretty sure you're gonna have VX guys make the argument, "My career expectation was to be the #1 Captain on my SLI, so I should go to the top of the AS list."

Sorry, but that's not even close to what ALPA defines as "career expectations." Career expectations means the expectation of holding a wide body position PERIOD. Since neither of these two airlines have wide bodies, the whole career expectations argument is a moot point. You cannot extrapolate the term to mean something YOU think it is....retirement position, seniority number, non-rev status, etc. It means one thing and one thing only: When you got hired did your airline have wide bodies on the property?

What 9 year captains? There's like 2. That is one of the many difficulties in trying to guess how this integration will play out.

Packrat
05-14-2016, 06:51 AM
What 9 year captains? There's like 2. That is one of the many difficulties in trying to guess how this integration will play out.

Exactly my point....

EskimoJoe
05-14-2016, 07:11 AM
It's not fair. It's just Union policy. The UAL pilot one number behind me on our seniority list was hired 7+ years before me. Why? Because it ended up mostly relative seniority despite the large number of "jumbo" aircraft UAL had. I dropped about 3 percent from where I was pre-merger to the combined list. You can see Union policy is built to maintain relative percentage over longevity.

If you're banking on the "we are a superior airline and they all get raises, etc" tell that to my friends at SWA hired when I was hired at CAL who are still FOs and now telling me that 5 years have been tacked onto their upgrade because of all the AT pilots placed ahead of them on the list. No question SWA had a better contract than AT by far.

Good luck fellow ALPA pilots.

Exactly. This is why Legacy Alaska Pilots better think long and hard about ratifying any JCBA. Is a couple of bucks worth it?

EskimoJoe
05-14-2016, 07:15 AM
Percentage is B.S. You gained 7 years seniority on the guy who is now stuck behind you for the rest of his career. That's a windfall by definition.

By your reasoning the #1 VX Capt. should be listed next to the #1 AS Capt. who has 25 years seniority over him. He should be bidding over at least 200 AS pilots with 20 or more years of seniority? Sorry, I call B.S. on that.
It is B.S.! Absolute B.S. But don't be shocked when it happens.

Ratify a JCBA and Everyone gets what they want and the AS pilots get screwed.

svergin
05-14-2016, 09:37 AM
Percentage is B.S. You gained 7 years seniority on the guy who is now stuck behind you for the rest of his career. That's a windfall by definition.

By your reasoning the #1 VX Capt. should be listed next to the #1 AS Capt. who has 25 years seniority over him. He should be bidding over at least 200 AS pilots with 20 or more years of seniority? Sorry, I call B.S. on that.

After our SLI the 1st vacancy bid was for about 80 737 Captains, and virtually every one of them was a legacy United FO who wasn't able to hold Captain previously. Those were previously CAL pilot jobs that they just walked in and took. I think a VX pilot who's on the verge of being a Captain, and then gets 200-300 AS FO's placed ahead of him and bid Airbus Captain is going to be pretty upset someone else took his job. Handing a bunch of Airbus Captain seats to AS FOs would be a windfall using DOH or anything close to it.

PokerPilot007
05-14-2016, 10:31 AM
We can speculate and debate this for the next 18 months, but in the end it will be pretty close to "relative" seniority for your seat with probably a small increase for AS pilots due to longevity. No one gets harmed with their relative seniority being honored.

- If your in the top 15% at AS your staying there... Period!
- If your in top 15% of VA, your probably staying pretty close to there on the new list... Period!

Get over DOH! It won't be used! There is NO windfall with relative seniority for either side! I'm near the top of FO's at VX, and once we upgrade the next 60 CA's later this year for the A321's coming in January, I'll be close to the number 1 FO at VX. Should I go backwards and have my upgrade extending out 2-3 more years? I didn't ask for the merger! We will all sacrifice something and have all paid our dues!

I see this as a win-win for all pilots! We are a stronger airline with an exciting future. We MUST stay unified and show management we are not going to take anything less than our peers at United, SW, Delta and American! Not one penny less! The VX pilots are unified and will stand with AS pilots and get what we ALL deserve!

EskimoJoe
05-14-2016, 11:20 AM
We can speculate and debate this for the next 18 months, but in the end it will be pretty close to "relative" seniority for your seat with probably a small increase for AS pilots due to longevity. No one gets harmed with their relative seniority being honored.

- If your in the top 15% at AS your staying there... Period!
- If your in top 15% of VA, your probably staying pretty close to there on the new list... Period!

Get over DOH! It won't be used! There is NO windfall with relative seniority for either side! I'm near the top of FO's at VX, and once we upgrade the next 60 CA's later this year for the A321's coming in January, I'll be close to the number 1 FO at VX. Should I go backwards and have my upgrade extending out 2-3 more years? I didn't ask for the merger! We will all sacrifice something and have all paid our dues!

I see this as a win-win for all pilots! We are a stronger airline with an exciting future. We MUST stay unified and show management we are not going to take anything less than our peers at United, SW, Delta and American! Not one penny less! The VX pilots are unified and will stand with AS pilots and get what we ALL deserve!

Sorry. If this were a "Win/Win" Alaska Pilots would be happy about this merger. There isn't a single guy I've talked to that wants a thing to do with a VX merger over here.

PokerPilot007
05-14-2016, 11:30 AM
Sorry. If this were a "Win/Win" Alaska Pilots would be happy about this merger. There isn't a single guy I've talked to that wants a thing to do with a VX merger over here.



Then "those" pilots are short sighted and not looking at the long term potential. Either way we can all embrace the merger or end up bitter legacy pilots.

GangtaMoose
05-14-2016, 11:32 AM
This is exactly why you slot the 9 year VX Captains with the 9 year AS Captains and ratio the list down from there. But I'm pretty sure you're gonna have VX guys make the argument, "My career expectation was to be the #1 Captain on my SLI, so I should go to the top of the AS list."

Sorry, but that's not even close to what ALPA defines as "career expectations." Career expectations means the expectation of holding a wide body position PERIOD. Since neither of these two airlines have wide bodies, the whole career expectations argument is a moot point. You cannot extrapolate the term to mean something YOU think it is....retirement position, seniority number, non-rev status, etc. It means one thing and one thing only: When you got hired did your airline have wide bodies on the property?

two different things here packrat. your slotting of 2007 doh guys does not meet the third tenet of ALPA merger policy which is a fair and equitable result. you are correct career expectation only means narrowbody versus wide body and that is the same for both pilot groups. this tenet of the ALPA merger policy for us is negligible because its the same narrowbody. the second tenet is longevity and as i said before the alaska group has more longevity so in the SLI process they will get more of an advantage for it. the fair and equitable tenet will prevent what you want which is slotting the most senior virgin guy with the most junior anchorage captain hired 2007. that is not a fair nor an equitable result for a capt in the top 10% to be leveled at an alaska captain at the very bottom of the list. the other important point is no one at virgin demanded anything. i know little about the virgin #1 guy but hes a humble individual and in no way making demands or saying anything. no one is spewing that virgin guys from 2007 want to be next to Alaska guys from 1980. virgin is pretty quiet here. let the process play itself out. both committees will represent their pilots. the only childish and immature posts are from your side with the likes of eskimojoe saying dont even vote on a jcba so he can force our lists to be separate. what an absolute assinine and ignorant statement to make. the last thing we need is giving management the ability to whipsaw this new airline as two separate groups. we need a unified single voice. now let's first get a kick ass jcba before we bring the pitchforks for seniority discussions. the ball is in the pilot court with oil prices low and profits very high.

Packrat
05-14-2016, 11:35 AM
Then "those" pilots are short sighted and not looking at the long term potential. Either way we can all embrace the merger or end up bitter legacy pilots.

You can look at long term potential because its more than likely you're a fairly young guy salivating at the idea of jumping over the seniority of guys who have 20 years on you.

How do you think they'll feel about bidding behind someone who got such a huge seniority windfall?

Remember this: The 1st tenet of ALPA Merger/Frag policy is NO WINDFALL GAINS in seniority. Relative seniority in this merger would be an ENORMOUS windfall for VX pilots.

PokerPilot007
05-14-2016, 11:52 AM
You can look at long term potential because its more than likely you're a fairly young guy salivating at the idea of jumping over the seniority of guys who have 20 years on you.

How do you think they'll feel about bidding behind someone who got such a huge seniority windfall?

Remember this: The 1st tenet of ALPA Merger/Frag policy is NO WINDFALL GAINS in seniority. Relative seniority in this merger would be an ENORMOUS windfall for VX pilots.

First off I'm not a young guy salivating over anything. I probably have more experience than 80% of AS pilots. I have my 20 yr ALPA pin brother. I just chose to look at the possibilities of two great airlines merging to make a better future for all of us. As far as windfall, you seem to not understand the meaning of windfall. NO AS pilot or VX pilot will lose anything with relative seniority! The vast majority of VX pilots resigned their seniority at legacy carriers to stay at VX! I'm sorry you and your buddies chose to look at your DOH and believe it makes you more valuable than a VX pilot who worked just as hard and sacrificed just as much to make this a better place for all of us. We will be one list and people will be upset with the outcome. Those are the facts! You can either welcome your fellow brothers & sister with open arms or sulk in your seat and cry that you got screwed. There isn't a single VX pilot that won't be harmed by this merger, but 90%+ of us chose to see a better future for all of us. Looking forward to sharing a beer and the cockpit with you soon.

Mea25000
05-14-2016, 12:07 PM
I think the point you are missing is every VX pilot would be very happy with relative seniority ( that's not hammered) and every AS pilot would be ready to burn this place to the ground. We didn't pay 2 million for that... We could have just got that without an attorney. When this is all said and done I am pretty sure we will all feel like we gave up a lot and well that will probably mean it was fair.

PokerPilot007
05-14-2016, 12:16 PM
I think the point you are missing is every VX pilot would be very happy with relative seniority and every AS pilot would be ready to burn this place to the ground. We didn't pay 2 million for that... We could have just got that without an attorney. When this is all said and done I am pretty sure we will all feel like we gave up a lot and well that will probably mean it was fair.

You can speculate that all VX pilots would be happy with a relative integration, but I can tell you that's not true. VX pilots built an airline from the ground up while other airlines including AS fought to keep us grounded. Pilots at VX literally sacrificed $300K jobs to come here and build an amazing airline we are extremely proud of that will likely cease to exist very soon. I can tell you with 100% certainty that VX pilots would like nothing more than to grow VA as a stand-alone airline. Unfortunately that's not in any of our control. So VX pilots will give up the airline we built against long odds in order to build a brighter future for all of us at AS.

Fred Flintstone
05-14-2016, 12:27 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-3e0EkvIEM

We all need to realize that if jetBlue had won the bidding, Alaska would have been boxed into a corner and slowly bled out by Delta in SEA.

OTOH, Virgin America most likely would not survive a big fuel price spike like 2008 and/or an economic downturn.

So, we need each other to survive and thrive, giving good opportunities for all pilots.

The CEO of Alaska started the ball rolling and had the bankroll to win. I don't think any pilot at either carrier wants to go through this, but we just fly the planes.

Lets get a good contract first, we have quite a bit of muscle to get this done quickly as management wants this to go smooth and they have a lot on the line right now.

SLI is never fun, but it can be done well (DL/NW) or ugly (US/AW). It's not going to be settled on this forum or anytime soon. Let your reps know your feelings and good luck to all of us.

PokerPilot007
05-14-2016, 12:41 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-3e0EkvIEM

We all need to realize that if jetBlue had won the bidding, Alaska would have been boxed into a corner and slowly bled out by Delta in SEA.

OTOH, Virgin America most likely would not survive a big fuel price spike like 2008 and/or an economic downturn.

So, we need each other to survive and thrive, giving good opportunities for all pilots.

The CEO of Alaska started the ball rolling and had the bankroll to win. I don't think any pilot at either carrier wants to go through this, but we just fly the planes.

Lets get a good contract first, we have quite a bit of muscle to get this done quickly as management wants this to go smooth and they have a lot on the line right now.

SLI is never fun, but it can be done well (DL/NW) or ugly (US/AW). It's not going to be settled on this forum or anytime soon. Let your reps know your feelings and good luck to all of us.

100% agree. We have a blank sheet of paper going forward to create an airline that's the envy of the industry. Our combined employees are truly in a league above the rest. Stay united, keep our eye on the ball, and wow our guests every day. Looking forward to getting my 30 year ALPA pin at AS!

EskimoJoe
05-14-2016, 12:58 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-3e0EkvIEM

We all need to realize that if jetBlue had won the bidding, Alaska would have been boxed into a corner and slowly bled out by Delta in SEA.

OTOH, Virgin America most likely would not survive a big fuel price spike like 2008 and/or an economic downturn.

So, we need each other to survive and thrive, giving good opportunities for all pilots.

The CEO of Alaska started the ball rolling and had the bankroll to win. I don't think any pilot at either carrier wants to go through this, but we just fly the planes.

Lets get a good contract first, we have quite a bit of muscle to get this done quickly as management wants this to go smooth and they have a lot on the line right now.

SLI is never fun, but it can be done well (DL/NW) or ugly (US/AW). It's not going to be settled on this forum or anytime soon. Let your reps know your feelings and good luck to all of us.

Well, I can't recall ever reading a single article prior to the merger announcement, authored by any financial analyst or Industry reporter that claims Alaska would be in dire straights if Jetblue merged with VX. Not one. Alaska is now paying the price for it's lack of vision and conservatism over the years. We have had a base at LAX for 3 decades longer than VX has been in existence. They could have grown California at any time they wanted to but were to scared to be bold. Now the price for that lack of vision is 4.1 Billion dollars for 58 rented airbus with a rented name on the side. I realize this isn't going to be settled on a web board, but it's a fact that many of us at AS don't need a JCBA and are in no hurry to get one.

A320
05-14-2016, 01:05 PM
After our SLI the 1st vacancy bid was for about 80 737 Captains, and virtually every one of them was a legacy United FO who wasn't able to hold Captain previously. Those were previously CAL pilot jobs that they just walked in and took. I think a VX pilot who's on the verge of being a Captain, and then gets 200-300 AS FO's placed ahead of him and bid Airbus Captain is going to be pretty upset someone else took his job. Handing a bunch of Airbus Captain seats to AS FOs would be a windfall using DOH or anything close to it.


Oh please... Are you one of those "Captains are Captains and FO's are FO's guys?

Fred Flintstone
05-14-2016, 01:40 PM
You certainly know Alaska better than I do EskimoJoe, so ask Brad Tilden why he was willing to out bid jetBlue and go $57 per share.

Mea25000
05-14-2016, 01:52 PM
What will really impress me is if both MEC's come together and put out a JCBA worth voting yes for, and a SLI without going to arbitration. Wonder what the odds of that are? Probably wouldn't bet in Vegas, but that would be pretty cool.

svergin
05-14-2016, 02:23 PM
Oh please... Are you one of those "Captains are Captains and FO's are FO's guys?

Why was that unreasonable?

Busdriver320
05-14-2016, 02:42 PM
Apparently a lot of people forgot what it is that "longevity" gets you in this business. It gets you:
Prime vacation slots
Weekends off flying
Holiday off flying
Desirable layovers
Widebody int'l flying (moot)
Pass riding rank (moot as that would likely remain DOH for everyone, and I could care less if it does as far as I'm concerned)

As someone else noted, career expectations are the same at AS and VX; narrowbody domestic flying with some Mexico and Hawaii flying.

Anything other than relative seniority is a straight up quantifiable windfall for AS pilots for the items listed above that aren't moot.

If you slot VX pilots somewhere down the list and not relative, a mid or junior AS pilot who has no expectation of holding those things will now be able to hold them. Those things will be taken from senior VX pilots. That is a windfall. VX is bringing flying, vacation slots, weekday trips, holiday off trips and tropical destinations with us. If you think it's fair to steal that from people you're delusional. Why would anyone care what "number" you are on a list as long as you have the same QOL you had and expected?

Even with relative, VX pilots stand to lose quite a bit in terms of QOL with AS rules. 75 hour min all year with flex up from there vs 70 with flex up to 75 six months/year? That's 1-2 less days off/month. That archaic line bidding BS with no transition or conflict language that forces you to get yourself back over 75? Complete garbage. VX has A LOT of commuters, and these two things alone are going to destroy the QOL a lot of VX pilots have come to enjoy.

mike734
05-14-2016, 03:05 PM
Just throwing it out there...All this talk of career expectations and our lack of wide body aircraft. Sure, today, but we could certainly use them. We fly 23 full jets to and from Anchorage every day in the summer. We could easily fill a 767 or 787 to and from the islands. I will not be surprised to see wide body aircraft here before I retire. So yeah, I expect to fly them in my career.

Arctichicken
05-14-2016, 03:36 PM
First off, welcome to all of my VX brothers and sisters! For the next couple of years, it's going to be a rough but exciting ride to say the least.
None of us are going to solve the SLI issue on a forum but it is a good place to vent and share ideas. More importantly, none of us really have a say on how it's going to go down. The best thing that we can do is let our reps know what each of us think and even then, it's only going to go so far.
It's going to be a tug of war, no doubt. Each side is going to try and get the best deal possible. I just hope that each side also realizes that going to arbitration will be bad joo joo. We all need to step back and not bite off more than we can chew. Everyone needs to know their limitations and not abuse the windfall, if you happen to be on that side of the fence. Pilots at Alaska really have very little to gain compared to VX pilots. People can say all they want about "what if jetBlue won the bid" etc. but did you ever think that Alaska management would standby idly while jetBlue tried to dominate the west coast? Alaska Airlines may be small but they had the money, as we saw, to buy an arsenal of their own even if this acquisition didn't work out. They may lack in the "vision/outlook" department but they are very good at reacting to a bad situation.
If you are less than 6 years at AS (especially the ex-furloughed folks), the outlook isn't very bright in my opinion. I expect the junior folks on both sides to jump ship to the big 3 and/or FedEx, if given the opportunity. Interesting times indeed.

Mea25000
05-14-2016, 03:48 PM
Career expectations? VX was a leveraged start up with 4 X debt to equity. Looking out 5 years there was reasonable doubt if the carrier would even be solvent or not. My w2 for '15 was 283k with an A plan and a 401k... At an airline that had the best asset to debt ratio in the industry, an airline that had been around more then 80 years.. The two career expectations were definitely not the same. All the previous mergers were bankrupt struggling carriers being pieced together all of which at the time of there merger had the same dismal career expectation. The only exception was southwest and AirTran.... And even there AirTran/valuejet had been around for 20 years... And AirTran did not get relative seniority. I paid good money and I bet our attorney will very colorfully distingish the different career expectation we really had. It seems all common sense is lost once a deal is announced. If you were to offer any VX pilot there same relative seniority on an AS list (they could just exchange it with a AS pilot who held the same %) 99% of VX pilots would have done it... Reverse that offer and 1% of AS pilots would have jumped at that offer. I think that tells you the difference in career expectation.

Arctichicken
05-14-2016, 04:01 PM
Career expectations? VX was a leveraged start up with 4 X debt to equity. Looking out 5 years there was reasonable doubt if the carrier would even be solvent or not. My w2 for '15 was 283k with an A plan and a 401k... At an airline that had the best asset to debt ratio in the industry, an airline that had been around more then 80 years.. The two career expectations were definitely not the same. All the previous mergers were bankrupt struggling carriers being pieced together all of which at the time of there merger had the same dismal career expectation. The only exception was southwest and AirTran.... And even there AirTran/valuejet had been around for 20 years... And AirTran did not get relative seniority. I paid good money and I bet our attorney will very colorfully distingish the different career expectation we really had.

Many in Seattle have your W2 beat with $300k+. :D Career expectations? What's that?

AJ Crowley
05-14-2016, 04:57 PM
Career expectations? VX was a leveraged start up with 4 X debt to equity. Looking out 5 years there was reasonable doubt if the carrier would even be solvent or not. My w2 for '15 was 283k with an A plan and a 401k... At an airline that had the best asset to debt ratio in the industry, an airline that had been around more then 80 years.. The two career expectations were definitely not the same. All the previous mergers were bankrupt struggling carriers being pieced together all of which at the time of there merger had the same dismal career expectation. The only exception was southwest and AirTran.... And even there AirTran/valuejet had been around for 20 years... And AirTran did not get relative seniority. I paid good money and I bet our attorney will very colorfully distingish the different career expectation we really had. It seems all common sense is lost once a deal is announced. If you were to offer any VX pilot there same relative seniority on an AS list (they could just exchange it with a AS pilot who held the same %) 99% of VX pilots would have done it... Reverse that offer and 1% of AS pilots would have jumped at that offer. I think that tells you the difference in career expectation.

That's not career expectations per ALPA merger policy. Career expectations is strictly widebody vs narrowbody. So, no one at AS or VX has any career expectations as far as the merger goes.

Mea25000
05-14-2016, 04:59 PM
Oh I will get a 3# this year. Unless all premium dries up or I run out of steam��.. Time will tell. I have found in life, bet on the person with the most $$$.. They will have the best attorney!

GangtaMoose
05-14-2016, 05:36 PM
Just throwing it out there...All this talk of career expectations and our lack of wide body aircraft. Sure, today, but we could certainly use them. We fly 23 full jets to and from Anchorage every day in the summer. We could easily fill a 767 or 787 to and from the islands. I will not be surprised to see wide body aircraft here before I retire. So yeah, I expect to fly them in my career.

thats not how career expectations works in the alpa merger policy. its based on what you either have on property or have on order by date of merger annoucement. alaska did not and does not have any on property or on order and neither does virgin. this portion of the merger policy is pretty cut n dry because it is negligible with both being the same without widebodies.

Career expectations? VX was a leveraged start up with 4 X debt to equity. Looking out 5 years there was reasonable doubt if the carrier would even be solvent or not. My w2 for '15 was 283k with an A plan and a 401k... At an airline that had the best asset to debt ratio in the industry, an airline that had been around more then 80 years.. The two career expectations were definitely not the same. All the previous mergers were bankrupt struggling carriers being pieced together all of which at the time of there merger had the same dismal career expectation. The only exception was southwest and AirTran.... And even there AirTran/valuejet had been around for 20 years... And AirTran did not get relative seniority. I paid good money and I bet our attorney will very colorfully distingish the different career expectation we really had. It seems all common sense is lost once a deal is announced. If you were to offer any VX pilot there same relative seniority on an AS list (they could just exchange it with a AS pilot who held the same %) 99% of VX pilots would have done it... Reverse that offer and 1% of AS pilots would have jumped at that offer. I think that tells you the difference in career expectation.

jezus people need to read what career expectations are as per the alpa merger policy. it is not any of those things you just said. airline with best asset to debt ratio. lol! seriously dude this isnt what arbitrators look at when it comes to the career expectation tenet. the airtran/southwest situation wasn't the same thing. it could have gone to arbitration but southwest management interfered and the airtran pilots were forced to accept a crappy proposal or be forced to run separate and then bleed dry as the 717s were shipped to delta. that was only allowed because the merger was an alpa merger with a swapa group merger. there really was no governing process. for alaska and virgin since both are alpa, the alpa merger policy applies and the process is spelled out quite clearly. i get it. youre scared because for many of you this is probably the first merger unless you were senior enough to see jet america. just breathe and relax. for those who have been through this rodeo before, there isnt much you can do at this stage and all you are doing is driving your own blood pressure up.

That's not career expectations per ALPA merger policy. Career expectations is strictly widebody vs narrowbody. So, no one at AS or VX has any career expectations as far as the merger goes.

thank you, at least one guy gets it


Oh I will get a 3# this year. Unless all premium dries up or I run out of steam��.. Time will tell. I have found in life, bet on the person with the most $$$.. They will have the best attorney!

perhaps. just keep in mind that in literally every single recent binding arbitration award the pilot group that asked for the moon and therefore most unreasonable, was screwed the most in the sli award. buyer beware.

FlyAK
05-14-2016, 05:54 PM
thats not how career expectations works in the alpa merger policy. its based on what you either have on property or have on order by date of merger annoucement. alaska did not and does not have any on property or on order and neither does virgin. this portion of the merger policy is pretty cut n dry because it is negligible with both being the same without widebodies.



jezus people need to read what career expectations are as per the alpa merger policy. it is not any of those things you just said. airline with best asset to debt ratio. lol! seriously dude this isnt what arbitrators look at when it comes to the career expectation tenet. the airtran/southwest situation wasn't the same thing. it could have gone to arbitration but southwest management interfered and the airtran pilots were forced to accept a crappy proposal or be forced to run separate and then bleed dry as the 717s were shipped to delta. that was only allowed because the merger was an alpa merger with a swapa group merger. there really was no governing process. for alaska and virgin since both are alpa, the alpa merger policy applies and the process is spelled out quite clearly. i get it. youre scared because for many of you this is probably the first merger unless you were senior enough to see jet america. just breathe and relax. for those who have been through this rodeo before, there isnt much you can do at this stage and all you are doing is driving your own blood pressure up.



thank you, at least one guy gets it




perhaps. just keep in mind that in literally every single recent binding arbitration award the pilot group that asked for the moon and therefore most unreasonable, was screwed the most in the sli award. buyer beware.

Gantamoose, why have you not responded to my request to post Virgins hiring #'s year by year? I'm not getting the team player vibe from you at all... No matter how much you say you are interested in a unified airline I see that you are only interested in using my numbers without reciprocating... #norespect

GangtaMoose
05-14-2016, 06:15 PM
Gantamoose, why have you not responded to my request to post Virgins hiring #'s year by year? I'm not getting the team player vibe from you at all... No matter how much you say you are interested in a unified airline I see that you are only interested in using my numbers without reciprocating... #norespect

i responded to you via pm

FlyAK
05-14-2016, 06:28 PM
Don't see any PM's from you on this site... Maybe I'm missing it? Or maybe try again? Thanks...

A320
05-14-2016, 06:46 PM
The LCAL solution in the arbitration was to go one for one from the top until they ran out of LCAL guys. Then the bottom 2500 would have been LUAL. That was their version of what rational and reasonable was. The Arbs completely disregarded that position.

FlyAK
05-14-2016, 07:02 PM
I've been at Alaska 9 years... I suppose waiting another couple years to upgrade so the VX 3 year guys get what they think is theirs is no big deal. I'm nothing if not a gentleman...

Arctichicken
05-14-2016, 07:25 PM
I've been at Alaska 9 years... I suppose waiting another couple years to upgrade so the VX 3 year guys get what they think is theirs is no big deal. I'm nothing if not a gentleman...

Hopefully you can hold the left seat when the next big bid comes out next month or be forced to be a gentleman. I'm guessing that there'll be a fence for a few years after the deal is complete so guys on the cusp of upgrading will make out okay IMO.

FlyAK
05-14-2016, 07:39 PM
I hope so... But highly doubt it. With the number of 10-12 year guys/girls in Seattle and Portland that have bypassed it might be awhile... 250 or so... We'll see but I think the guys in my seniority range might be in for a second screw job...

FlyAK
05-14-2016, 07:55 PM
If I didn't have almost a decade invested here I'd be tempted to go work for Delta, FedEx, JetBlue, or shoot maybe even Virgin... Probably upgrade quicker at any of those places than Alaska...

svergin
05-14-2016, 07:58 PM
If I didn't have almost a decade invested here I'd be tempted to go work for Delta, FedEx, JetBlue, or shoot maybe even Virgin... Probably upgrade quicker at any of those places than Alaska...

Delta just had a October 2014 hire make 717 Captain in NY. At United we have pilots who came back from furlough in 2013 that are Captains now. Don't know about American.

How long is it taking at AS? How many per year?

FlyAK
05-14-2016, 08:04 PM
Delta just had a October 2014 hire make 717 Captain in NY. At United we have pilots who came back from furlough in 2013 that are Captains now. Don't know about American.

How long is it taking at AS? How many per year?

Our Jr. Captain was hired before Virgin America was even a thought in Richard Branson's loins... So the answer is it is taking a long time...

Packrat
05-14-2016, 09:03 PM
So sorry, Poker, but your 11 years at UAL/USAir mean nothing in this merger. If you're going to talk longevity it only refers to these two airlines period. On top of that, if you were an Instant Captain in 2007, its most likely that you fought the vote for ALPA at VX tooth and nail. Why? Because you blamed your furlough on ALPA instead of your management where it rightly belonged.

GangtaMoose...How many times do you have to be told that "Career Expectations" ONLY means narrow body vs. wide body. I was on the ALPA BoD when that term replaced DoH in the Merger/Frag policy. And why did that happen? It was during the aborted takeover of USAIR by UAL. The UAL Gorilla MEC wanted to keep USAIR pilots out of their wide body seats.

Any other interpretation of career expectations is a corrupted view.

And let's not forget that with "no bump, no flush" NO ONE who is a current Captain at either airline will lose his seat unless he/she voluntarily bids out of it.

Packrat
05-14-2016, 09:06 PM
Delta just had a October 2014 hire make 717 Captain in NY. At United we have pilots who came back from furlough in 2013 that are Captains now. Don't know about American.

How long is it taking at AS? How many per year?

And what does any of that have to do with the topic at hand. Go back to the DAL threads and whine about orange lanyards.

EskimoJoe
05-14-2016, 09:11 PM
I've been at Alaska 9 years... I suppose waiting another couple years to upgrade so the VX 3 year guys get what they think is theirs is no big deal. I'm nothing if not a gentleman...
No JCBA = No Problem. AS guys, bookmark this post. After you get screwed, you can at least reference this point (Pre-JCBA) when you had actual leverage and squandered it at the behest of ALPA National and those among us with those related "aspirations". It will be hind sight and you'll still be screwed forever but... Enjoy those couple of bucks.

FlyAK
05-14-2016, 09:15 PM
I'll vote no all day long if the SLI doesn't work out...

EskimoJoe
05-14-2016, 09:36 PM
I'll vote no all day long if the SLI doesn't work out...
But...Brad Tilden said this would be good for us.....HAAAA!!

ArcticDog
05-15-2016, 08:07 AM
I'll vote no all day long if the SLI doesn't work out...

You will be voting on a JCBA before you know results of any SLI. That is straight from our MEC and Section 45. Vote carefully...

svergin
05-15-2016, 08:51 AM
You will be voting on a JCBA before you know results of any SLI. That is straight from our MEC and Section 45. Vote carefully...

Yep. We tried voting ours down to stop our SLI but too many United pilots voted for it just to get the SLI so they could bid onto our side since we were growing so quickly. Strangely enough the vote went almost along legacy pilot ratios. I don't know any Ex-Con's that voted for it.

We did make sure that most of the pay gains benefitted us by getting favorable pay banding for our legacy crews, like our 767's being pay banded to UAL's 747s while their 767s were the same pay as our 757s, and their 757s the same pay as our 737s. A small victory nonetheless, even though now everyone can bid anywhere they want.

Since AS is the bigger airline, you should be able to stall a new contract out as long as possible.

Molon Labe
05-15-2016, 09:50 AM
The "new" ALPA merger policy which really means regime of this week policy...Imposes ratio with essentially no consideration for any other mitigating factors...Past considerations such as date of hire and career potential were inconvenient for the current regime and have therefore been eliminated. So 30 year Alaska Captains prepare to have someone hired many years after you and considerably younger than thee in front of you. It happened to me at Delta, and the other considerations that used to be part of ALPA merger policy that were a factor in my last merger (NWA, Republic), are now null and void.

A320
05-15-2016, 10:10 AM
Yep. We tried voting ours down to stop our SLI but too many United pilots voted for it just to get the SLI so they could bid onto our side since we were growing so quickly. Strangely enough the vote went almost along legacy pilot ratios. I don't know any Ex-Con's that voted for it.

We did make sure that most of the pay gains benefitted us by getting favorable pay banding for our legacy crews, like our 767's being pay banded to UAL's 747s while their 767s were the same pay as our 757s, and their 757s the same pay as our 737s. A small victory nonetheless, even though now everyone can bid anywhere they want.

Since AS is the bigger airline, you should be able to stall a new contract out as long as possible.


You are one of those delusional POed guys who think you saved UAL. You seem to forget that CAL found themselves in 2009 in a place where they had cash but no credit or assets to leverage to borrow anymore to get many more planes. Only then did it seem like a good idea to marry up with UAL who had older yet basically paid off planes and much better credit and lots of cash. Most of those planes delivered after Oct 2010 you think belonged to LCAL guys would not have been delivered without LUALs cash and credit. During that time until SLI every one of those seats was exclusively filled with LCAL pilots. Not only that but LCAL was handed the exclusive bids into Denver and Chicago on the 737 during that time. In regards to contracts the LCAL contract had marginally higher pay rates with virtually no work rules.

When SLI was done there was a huge pent up demand on the UAL side and most bids for months landed in LUAL pilots hands. It is fun hearing those like you *****ing about this stuff but fail to mention that overnight your 777 fleet grew by 350% with no fences.

The merger /contract/SLI is behind us. You better find a way to get over it.

Packrat
05-15-2016, 12:07 PM
The "new" ALPA merger policy which really means regime of this week policy...Imposes ratio with essentially no consideration for any other mitigating factors...Past considerations such as date of hire and career potential were inconvenient for the current regime and have therefore been eliminated.

If this is what the ALPA merger/frag policy has devolved to, the "New AS"
is going to be a steaming pot of labor unrest.

full of luv
05-15-2016, 02:46 PM
If this is what the ALPA merger/frag policy has devolved to, the "New AS"
is going to be a steaming pot of labor unrest.

If ALPA were smart they'd make the MEC's do baseball style arbitration where each side puts forth their "best" offer to the other side and the arbitrator just picks either A or B without modifications.

That way each MEC would be responsible for setting reasonable expectations amongst it's membership. Right now, each MEC shoots for the moon with inevitable labor heartache when neither side can be even close to their position in the end.

svergin
05-15-2016, 02:59 PM
If ALPA were smart they'd make the MEC's do baseball style arbitration where each side puts forth their "best" offer to the other side and the arbitrator just picks either A or B without modifications.

That way each MEC would be responsible for setting reasonable expectations amongst it's membership. Right now, each MEC shoots for the moon with inevitable labor heartache when neither side can be even close to their position in the end.

That's almost how it is now. The last 3 major mergers under the policy were handled as follows:

AWA/USAir - The AWA proposal was adopted.
DAL/NWA - The DAL proposal was adopted.
UAL/CAL - The UAL proposal was adopted (with 2 minor modifications, a 787 Fence and less longevity credit than UAL asked for)

The "less longevity" should matter to the AS pilots because they basically said "airline pilots are airline pilots" and that once joined, they had a collective future and they didn't see longevity as much an important factor as your position at your previous airline.

Its the same 4-5 guys in every arbitration BTW.

Reggie Dunlop
05-15-2016, 03:45 PM
Its the same 4-5 guys in every arbitration BTW.


Kind of like this thread, and every argument on every pilot web board on the planet.

Mea25000
05-15-2016, 04:17 PM
I think this merging bit sucks! The good news is our attorney represented AWA, UAL, and DAL. Seems like he must be a pretty fair guy. If I were at VX, I wouldn't even get an attorney, sounds like the other guy must really suck. We better grow like crazy once this merger is done, I think it's the only thing that will fix all the butt hurt that's about to take place. It is going to be real hard for me to watch a 30 year guy paired with a 9 year CA at VX, I don't think any merger has seen such a disparity. Can you imagine how our FA's are going to handle it. This place is going to be screwed up! I guess I have 28 years to watch the dust settle, and I am sure it finally will.

svergin
05-15-2016, 04:32 PM
I think this merging bit sucks! The good news is our attorney represented AWA, UAL, and DAL. Seems like he must be a pretty fair guy. If I were at VX, I wouldn't even get an attorney, sounds like the other guy must really suck.

Yes. He does. We used him. You'd be better off spinning a wheel with different SLI proposals in front of the hearing panel and just claiming that is the one you want to adopt and not doing any witnesses than using the one we used.

Your final briefing would just be a video the the wheel spinning and stopping on that choice.

NotTellin
05-15-2016, 04:46 PM
I find it interesting that the loudest on this thread, created their profiles in April of this year. Nothing like a bit of keyboard courage under a new user name! As for me, MY MEC SPEAKS FOR ME!

Packrat
05-15-2016, 04:50 PM
If ALPA were smart they'd make the MEC's do baseball style arbitration where each side puts forth their "best" offer to the other side and the arbitrator just picks either A or B without modifications.

The only problem with this philosophy is that if you establish the precedent in SLI negotiations you've let the baseball arbitration camel's nose under the tent.

Companies would love, Love, LOVE baseball arbitration for the rest of your contracts, especially if you've got an NC who doesn't properly prepare.

As for me, MY MEC SPEAKS FOR ME!

Hopefully your MEC has the balls to go hammer and tongs against seniority windfall gains.

Molon Labe
05-15-2016, 05:29 PM
With those 3 guys as arbitrators all you are going to get is ratio...especially if management puts their thumb on the scale at the outset of hearings....Baseball style can be very heavy handed ala Delta NWA

ArcticDog
05-15-2016, 05:55 PM
We better grow like crazy once this merger is done, I think it's the only thing that will fix all the butt hurt that's about to take place.

Oh, we will grow like crazy, how does 85 EMB-175 sound?

BOHICA

full of luv
05-16-2016, 04:13 AM
It is going to be real hard for me to watch a 30 year guy paired with a 9 year CA at VX, I don't think any merger has seen such a disparity. Can you imagine how our FA's are going to handle it. This place is going to be screwed up! I guess I have 28 years to watch the dust settle, and I am sure it finally will.

I think the disparity in the AWA/US Air merger was also very large. No doubt the disparities make for a much more painful process.

Flitestar
05-16-2016, 04:20 AM
Guys, honest question just out of curiosity...

Is there any chance the certificates could be kept separate and have AS just operate both airlines independently, without integration?

Packrat
05-16-2016, 05:41 AM
Guys, honest question just out of curiosity...

Is there any chance the certificates could be kept separate and have AS just operate both airlines independently, without integration?

Certainly, setting up a classic whipsaw. Its not past AS management to do that either. When they bought Jet America, they threatened the pilot group with shrinking Alaska and expanding Jet America if the pilots didn't accept a concessionary contract.

If you don't think they'd at least make the threat, check out what they just got finished doing to Horizon over the E175 flying.

full of luv
05-16-2016, 06:03 AM
With those 3 guys as arbitrators all you are going to get is ratio...especially if management puts their thumb on the scale at the outset of hearings....Baseball style can be very heavy handed ala Delta NWA

Baseball style has nothing to do with the number of arbitrators... it forces each MEC to essentially make "their best offer" and then someone (1-100 arbitrators) picks just one side in it's entirety without changes.

DAL/NWA was absolutely not baseball style arbitration. Both sides made typical case for why they deserved top spots (generalization) and then the arbitrator did an SLI based on arguments, taking some from DAL and some from NWA.

Baseball style would force each MEC to realize an equitable/plausible solution to it's own members, as not to risk outright losing with over demands. This would create much less hostility between the groups as grownups running the merger committees on each side would explain realities to their own constituencies vice promising the moon and blaming the other side/arbitrator when it didn't come to fruition.

As Pack said before, the threat is that mgmt would want to use the same process in negotiating contracts.

Singlecoil
05-16-2016, 06:58 AM
Can you imagine how our FA's are going to handle it. This place is going to be screwed up! I guess I have 28 years to watch the dust settle, and I am sure it finally will.
I was wondering how the flight attendant merger will go as well. Does McCaskill-Bond apply to them at all? Will the virgin FA's just get stapled? I think they are non-Union, but I could be wrong.

Packrat
05-16-2016, 08:24 AM
I was wondering how the flight attendant merger will go as well. Does McCaskill-Bond apply to them at all? Will the virgin FA's just get stapled? I think they are non-Union, but I could be wrong.

My impression is that AS Inflight would give them DoH, but that's just an opinion. I think that's what happened with the Jet America F/As.

Molon Labe
05-16-2016, 09:02 AM
Baseball style has nothing to do with the number of arbitrators... it forces each MEC to essentially make "their best offer" and then someone (1-100 arbitrators) picks just one side in it's entirety without changes.

DAL/NWA was absolutely not baseball style arbitration. Both sides made typical case for why they deserved top spots (generalization) and then the arbitrator did an SLI based on arguments, taking some from DAL and some from NWA.

Baseball style would force each MEC to realize an equitable/plausible solution to it's own members, as not to risk outright losing with over demands. This would create much less hostility between the groups as grownups running the merger committees on each side would explain realities to their own constituencies vice promising the moon and blaming the other side/arbitrator when it didn't come to fruition.

As Pack said before, the threat is that mgmt would want to use the same process in negotiating contracts.

First of all virtually NOTHING from the NWA case or proposal was adopted in the NWA Delta ruling or award, second prepare for ratio with few modifications UAL being the largest divergence and that didn't appear to be that much of a variation...Ratio is the new one size fits all, for some it is good and for some of us it is a career destroyer.

maddogmax
05-16-2016, 09:13 AM
First of all virtually NOTHING from the NWA case or proposal was adopted in the NWA Delta ruling or award, second prepare for ratio with few modifications UAL being the largest divergence and that didn't appear to be that much of a variation...Ratio is the new one size fits all, for some it is good and for some of us it is a career destroyer.

I went through both the REP/NWA and DAL/NWA mergers. The first basically went DOH with 20 yr. fences on the wide bodies. I benefited from the fences. The second was basically a ratio, with some modifications for the upcoming NWA retirements. I ended up about 1000 numbers junior to guys hired at Delta 3 years after me.
Bottom line, they both sucked.

Flitestar
05-16-2016, 09:34 AM
Certainly, setting up a classic whipsaw. Its not past AS management to do that either. When they bought Jet America, they threatened the pilot group with shrinking Alaska and expanding Jet America if the pilots didn't accept a concessionary contract.

If you don't think they'd at least make the threat, check out what they just got finished doing to Horizon over the E175 flying.

Agreed.

Has AS management pronounced themselves on their intentions in regards to the certificates?

svergin
05-16-2016, 09:47 AM
First of all virtually NOTHING from the NWA case or proposal was adopted in the NWA Delta ruling or award, second prepare for ratio with few modifications UAL being the largest divergence and that didn't appear to be that much of a variation...Ratio is the new one size fits all, for some it is good and for some of us it is a career destroyer.

Most of us 2005-2008 hires at CAL were 7 years younger than the 98-2001 UAL hires we were slotted with. Although we lost a few % of relative seniority, most of us had very few pilots placed ahead of us on the list that were also younger than us. So we get the benefit of excess retirements we didn't have before. I've moved up 1,300 seniority numbers in the 2 1/2 years since SLI and that would have been 500 at stand alone CAL.

If the VX pilots are substantially younger than their relative seniority counterparts, it will be good for them almost no matter how they are placed on the list, provided it is not strictly DOH. If you're junior and older than average at AS, it's going to suck no matter what.

Mea25000
05-16-2016, 11:30 AM
Kinda looks that way. History repeats its self. I have heard a lot of guys saying just keep them separate especially among the FA's. I know some pilots have even written Brad and seem to be willing to keep our current contract to do so. I think it may really be in the works with Ben's new promotion today, he will become the CEO of VX. Poof there goes our pay raise, and we will have no one to blame but our selves. Management will say, we only did what you asked for. If this is how it ends up management will be laughing all the way to the bank.

N19906
05-16-2016, 02:29 PM
Oh, we will grow like crazy, how does 85 EMB-175 sound?

BOHICA
All for QX...

FlyAK
05-16-2016, 05:05 PM
All for QX...

Haven't you noticed... They always include QX airplanes in the total when they talk about how many airplanes the new airline will have...

EskimoJoe
05-16-2016, 07:54 PM
Kinda looks that way. History repeats its self. I have heard a lot of guys saying just keep them separate especially among the FA's. I know some pilots have even written Brad and seem to be willing to keep our current contract to do so. I think it may really be in the works with Ben's new promotion today, he will become the CEO of VX. Poof there goes our pay raise, and we will have no one to blame but our selves. Management will say, we only did what you asked for. If this is how it ends up management will be laughing all the way to the bank.
What is the hourly rate to adequately compensate you for hundreds of VX pilots put on top of you? Our Jr captain (someone close to yourself I think you said once) was working at Alaska before VX Existed. What's the rate, and do you really think Ben will pay you anything approaching that number? Ben has always been the "bad cop" in the Brad/Ben show BTW.

ArcticDog
05-16-2016, 07:56 PM
All for QX...

And Skywest. I believe its 20 to Skywest, 35 for QX and 30 QX options to be exact. They keep adjusting the numbers upwards incrementally in 8K filings.

pete2800
05-16-2016, 10:05 PM
The fewer lists there are, the better the outcome will be. Accepting a whipsaw scenario in exchange for avoiding a slight seniority hit seems like an exceedingly bad idea...

Arctichicken
05-17-2016, 08:08 AM
What is the hourly rate to adequately compensate you for hundreds of VX pilots put on top of you? Our Jr captain (someone close to yourself I think you said once) was working at Alaska before VX Existed. What's the rate, and do you really think Ben will pay you anything approaching that number? Ben has always been the "bad cop" in the Brad/Ben show BTW.

If history is an indicator, this pilot group is about to face another huge hurdle once again. With B.M.'s promotion, things are going to get real interesting. He is a ruthless bean counter and he only serves one master-money. Let's hope that we don't go backwards and return to the "Bagley & Ayer era". Think Gestapo, the wife beater.

Mea25000
05-17-2016, 09:31 AM
I heard the company #s are 5,3,1.5,1.5,1.5 very generous indeed!
I need 15,5,5. No 5 year contract for me but I have yet to vote yes now on 3 contracts. The union said Brad was willing to pay to make this go smoothly. Right

Mea25000
05-17-2016, 10:13 AM
What I would like to see written into our contract would be:

Equipment lock: Whatever aircraft you were in April 4, 2016, You are locked into both FO and CA. *FO's can only upgrade on April 4, 2016 awarded equipment.

* the only relief would be if fleet size of either aircraft were to be reduced by more then 10% of April 4, 2016. At which time in reverse seniority order the reduced equipment CA's and FO's could displace to the other aircraft.

- No furlough for any pilot on either seniority list April 4, 2016 for 3 years after DOS
- No Pilot that held CA on either seniority list April 4, 2016 shall be displaced to FO during any period within 3 years of DOS

This would protect VX seniority on the bus and AS seniority on the boeing. Company would love it as it would save in training costs.

If we can get this written into the contract, I would be willing to take what arbitration gives us. Plus I would need that 15,5,5 % raise

Packrat
05-17-2016, 10:28 AM
BM is Ray Vecci all over again. Ask anyone who was on the property in 1992 what Ray did to the operation. VX pilots need to ask the same question. Or just take a look at what he "accomplished" when he took over Station Ops.

Junior VXers need to get their apps out.

Arctichicken
05-17-2016, 11:22 AM
I have heard about Vecci-bad joo joo. Once again, the ball is in management's court. They can either turn this into a good thing or completely screw the pooch. Hopefully history won't repeat itself. These are different times but greed is blinding.

Arctichicken
05-17-2016, 11:42 AM
I heard the company #s are 5,3,1.5,1.5,1.5 very generous indeed!
I need 15,5,5. No 5 year contract for me but I have yet to vote yes now on 3 contracts. The union said Brad was willing to pay to make this go smoothly. Right

This is the funniest joke I've heard since the last TA! The sad truth is that we have guys here who'll jump on this deal but then, what's new?

Packrat
05-17-2016, 02:34 PM
I have heard about Vecci-bad joo joo. Once again, the ball is in management's court. They can either turn this into a good thing or completely screw the pooch. Hopefully history won't repeat itself. These are different times but greed is blinding.

Believe me, it was a nightmare. Considering that AS has, what, 75 737s on order, it appears to me that sending the "Coochi" to VX means his mission is to let the Bus leases run out and shut the place down.

AKpilot
05-17-2016, 04:10 PM
Believe me, it was a nightmare. Considering that AS has, what, 75 737s on order, it appears to me that sending the "Coochi" to VX means his mission is to let the Bus leases run out and shut the place down.

I agree about RV ...He was an *********. I disagree about BM.... BM is way smarter and more skilled than RV. I met them both. BM does not have the people skills and charm of BT, but he is very good at operations and systems. They need VX people and A/C to grow and compete. I believe that the powers that be will look at the best parts of both operations and make new airline better than the parts. They can't make any serious plans until the deal closes. The # of VX Airbus a/c is at a critical mass to be profitable. All the other majors run both types. I believe they will wait and see how the combined operation runs before they decide IF they want to go back to one fleet type.

I believe your comment poisons the waters here by spreading angst to the gullible.

It's too early to get crazy about what might happen with the SLI.

Anyone who has studied the history of this industry will know there are cycles of good and bad, expansion and stagnation. These are very good times now. It won't always be this way. There are no guarantees.

There is a lot of BS on these forums and it should only be digested after being highly filtered.

Mea25000
05-17-2016, 04:16 PM
I feel pretty confident AS wants most if not all of the VX airbus fleet. I think it's a better passenger experience and well the pilots have way more space then we do in the Boeing. Pretty sure the 319's will go when there leases are up. Think it's also a pretty easy way to keep all of us from steeping on each other's career expectations by separating by aircraft. The key is both fleets grow and both fleets pay the same. The # I heard was 75 buses and 225 737's by 2022. I know it changes on a Tuesday. But a fleet of 300, I could live with that!

mike734
05-17-2016, 06:50 PM
300 by 2022. No freaking way. I'm not sure it's even possible. It's much more likely we will have 150 737s and 150 EMBs.

Mea25000
05-17-2016, 06:57 PM
I will take that bet... 285-310 by 2022. Had a real nice conversation with AH and I think that is really where they want to be 6 years fron now. That would be all firm and all the options over the next 6 years. Also heard we just got positions on 13 more jets I think late this year early next.. Somebody else just cancelled. Everyone around here is so sensitive to good news.. Barry your head in the sand, the world is coming to an end and As will be out of business in 2 years and horizon will be flying 1000 175's!

Packrat
05-17-2016, 07:06 PM
I agree about RV ...He was an *********. I disagree about BM.... BM is way smarter and more skilled than RV. .

That's what makes him more dangerous to the labor groups. If he has the same mandate as RV, he'll be no less dogged in carrying it out.

EskimoJoe
05-18-2016, 05:03 AM
That's what makes him more dangerous to the labor groups. If he has the same mandate as RV, he'll be no less dogged in carrying it out.
True. At least BM will make it real easy to say no to a JCBA. He'll Probably be looking for concessions citing the cost of VX.

Packrat
05-18-2016, 05:32 AM
^^^^^Exactly right. Especially since AS grossly overpaid for VX.

svergin
05-18-2016, 09:38 AM
^^^^^Exactly right. Especially since AS grossly overpaid for VX.

UAL and DAL have both thrown more money than that away in share repurchases. At least you got something concrete for the $4B+ in price and debt you had to take on, even if they are just airplane leases. I think your management is smart and it was worth it to stop JetBlue from stealing market share. The only thing that would worry me is the $1.5B in debt that just got added to AS and that the profits from AS will be paying for that for years, because the VX operation isn't going to cover it. That and the likelyhood of the SLI being more favorable to VX just because the union policy is so weighted toward Status and Category, thanks to United and all their "Jumbos" wanting to make sure they did well in any merger.

Other than that, welcome to the world of being an airline pilot, having your career tied to the decisions your management makes, and really having no say in the matter.

busbusbaby
05-19-2016, 10:47 AM
I agree about RV ...He was an *********. I disagree about BM.... BM is way smarter and more skilled than RV. I met them both. BM does not have the people skills and charm of BT, but he is very good at operations and systems. They need VX people and A/C to grow and compete. I believe that the powers that be will look at the best parts of both operations and make new airline better than the parts. They can't make any serious plans until the deal closes. The # of VX Airbus a/c is at a critical mass to be profitable. All the other majors run both types. I believe they will wait and see how the combined operation runs before they decide IF they want to go back to one fleet type.

I believe your comment poisons the waters here by spreading angst to the gullible.

It's too early to get crazy about what might happen with the SLI.

Anyone who has studied the history of this industry will know there are cycles of good and bad, expansion and stagnation. These are very good times now. It won't always be this way. There are no guarantees.

There is a lot of BS on these forums and it should only be digested after being highly filtered.

Amen Brother way to many people get wound up buy the trolls and bear pokers on here

ASpilot0936
05-22-2016, 11:11 PM
With B.M.'s promotion, things are going to get real interesting. He is a ruthless bean counter and he only serves one master-money. Let's hope that we don't go backwards and return to the "Bagley & Ayer era". Think Gestapo, the wife beater.

All the more reason for ALPA to grow a pair this time.......

Al Czervik
08-13-2017, 06:02 PM
"seniority_list: A Tool to Address the Challenge of Airline Mergers and" by Robert Davison and Sean Edmund Rogers Ph.D. (http://scholarship.sha.cornell.edu/chrpubs/246/)

riktaroller
08-22-2017, 07:26 PM
I think it's time for the pilot group to get on par w virgin, show some pilot unity.
Stop constantly padding Alaskan airways on time record by prematurely releasing the parking brake (haha, gettin paid).
Paid a nickel today, for a settled contract that would be giving you a quarter.
They made a stink about orange lanyards so they could keep the big picture chugging along while everyone focused on some little insignificant thing.
You think United got screwed with bad scope thru bankruptcy years, the air group is going to make that look like child's play, especial with the current no scope.
Pay and retirement is worthless in this situation going forward.

Boeing314
08-23-2017, 02:00 PM
"seniority_list: A Tool to Address the Challenge of Airline Mergers and" by Robert Davison and Sean Edmund Rogers Ph.D. (http://scholarship.sha.cornell.edu/chrpubs/246/)

This is a great white paper. RBS has amazing analytics—and its free for anyone to use. Very cool. :D

example gallery seniority_list 0.56 documentation (http://rubydatasystems.com/gallery.html)

http://rubydatasystems.com/_images/total_jobs_available_over_time_with_bands.png

http://rubydatasystems.com/_images/quantile_groupby_color_spectrum.png

Boeing314
08-23-2017, 02:01 PM
http://rubydatasystems.com/_images/group_quantile_change_over_time_2.png

http://rubydatasystems.com/_images/editor_scatter.png

http://rubydatasystems.com/_images/editor_job_differential_specific_monthV2.png

Boeing314
08-23-2017, 02:06 PM
http://rubydatasystems.com/_images/editor_abs_value_ylong.png

http://www.rubydatasystems.com/_images/notebook_inline_plotting.png

http://rubydatasystems.com/_images/sample_report_chart.png

Boeing314
08-23-2017, 02:10 PM
http://rubydatasystems.com/_images/annual_stats_example.png

http://www.rubydatasystems.com/_images/function3.png

http://www.rubydatasystems.com/_images/rows_of_colors.png

Pogey Bait
08-23-2017, 03:26 PM
What the heck is all of that? I am pretty slow. Seems like a bunch of nothing.

ArcticDog
08-23-2017, 04:07 PM
Hey man, I fly a plane that only goes .81 on a good day, that went over my head faster than the space shuttle in orbit...

Please explain?

ShyGuy
08-23-2017, 06:16 PM
Ugh. Those images remind me of Finite Element Models in college. :eek:

N19906
08-23-2017, 06:38 PM
So many pretty colors... :p
There's a reason I dropped out of Aeronautical Engineering to become a pilot. You've found it. Please explain.

tomgoodman
08-23-2017, 07:27 PM
It's a dynamic trajectory analysis, showing the location of each hailstone in a thunderstorm as a function of time. :p

vroll1800
08-23-2017, 09:25 PM
It's a dynamic trajectory analysis, showing the location of each hailstone in a thunderstorm as a function of time. :p

TRANSLATION: In any SLI, you're just along for the ride......

PNWFlyer
08-24-2017, 08:27 AM
What the heck is all of that? I am pretty slow. Seems like a bunch of nothing.

Easier way to look at it...

http://pad2.whstatic.com/images/thumb/a/aa/Remove-Staples-with-Your-Bare-Hands-Step-1.jpg/aid136017-v4-900px-Remove-Staples-with-Your-Bare-Hands-Step-1.jpg

AltoCumulus
08-25-2017, 10:47 PM
These charts are not for VX/AS. I am guessing they are from the AA
/US/HP merger.

FlyAK
11-04-2017, 12:09 PM
Direct SLI negotiations start Nov 15th.

Here’s to what was and what is, for I am not excited about what is to come...

busbusbaby
11-04-2017, 01:17 PM
Easier way to look at it...

http://pad2.whstatic.com/images/thumb/a/aa/Remove-Staples-with-Your-Bare-Hands-Step-1.jpg/aid136017-v4-900px-Remove-Staples-with-Your-Bare-Hands-Step-1.jpg

Your deranged, I feel bad for you.

Packrat
11-05-2017, 06:46 AM
There are guys on the property that are still upset about the Jet A merger SLI.

svergin
11-05-2017, 02:56 PM
Direct SLI negotiations start Nov 15th.

Here’s to what was and what is, for I am not excited about what is to come...

I though there was already a relative seniority policy with a slight adjustment for longevity? When we merged with United they weighted longevity 35% but we all ended up within 5% of our pre-existing seniority. UAL pilot right behind me on the combined list was hired 8 years ahead of me.

Mea25000
11-05-2017, 10:01 PM
I though there was already a relative seniority policy with a slight adjustment for longevity? When we merged with United they weighted longevity 35% but we all ended up within 5% of our pre-existing seniority. UAL pilot right behind me on the combined list was hired 8 years ahead of me.

Yeah 8 years senior, furloughed 2x and on property working about 2 years. The one thing we know for certain is an arbitration panel will give us all our new seniority numbers September 1st 2018.

Pogey Bait
11-06-2017, 02:56 AM
Yeah 8 years senior, furloughed 2x and on property working about 2 years. The one thing we know for certain is an arbitration panel will give us all our new seniority numbers September 1st 2018.

Just a quick check.....I am showing that September 1 2018 falls on a Saturday. I am guessing that as we approach September 1 2018 that the predictions will hold tight and in fact September 1 2018 will still fall on a Saturday. We all know how that works out.

busbusbaby
11-06-2017, 06:42 AM
just a quick check.....i am showing that september 1 2018 falls on a saturday. I am guessing that as we approach september 1 2018 that the predictions will hold tight and in fact september 1 2018 will still fall on a saturday. We all know how that works out.

🤪🤪🤪🤪🤪🤪🤪🤪🤪🤪🤪🤪🤪

svergin
11-06-2017, 08:02 AM
Yeah 8 years senior, furloughed 2x and on property working about 2 years.

Nope. He was 99 hire and actively flying and not furloughed. I was active 07 hire. We merged in 2010. The problem was we were roughly the same relative percentage on the active list, so our "status and category" was the same (narrowbody FO). Seniority isn't date of hire, its your relative seniority in the group. The arbitrators apparently didn't think his extra 8 years meant very much and instead our relative seniority more important. I understand where you guys are coming from, because the United pilots argued the same thing. Good luck to both sides. Wouldn't want to go through it again.

Packrat
11-06-2017, 08:32 AM
So its fair if "relative position" places a 10 year Virgin Captain next to a 30 year Alaska Captain? Don't be surprised if you start seeing "Hired not Acquired" bag tags at an airport near you.

rickair7777
11-06-2017, 08:56 AM
So its fair if "relative position" places a 10 year Virgin Captain next to a 30 year Alaska Captain? Don't be surprised if you start seeing "Hired not Acquired" bag tags at an airport near you.

Runway behind you is never relevant, only runway ahead...

EskimoJoe
11-06-2017, 09:49 AM
I won’t be shocked if it goes straight relative seniority.

Speed Pilot
11-06-2017, 11:19 AM
Rabble rabble

airb320
11-06-2017, 11:47 AM
Relative Senority is the fairest thing out there, period! There maybe some concessions due to retirements being higher the next few years but besides that relative seniority is the way to go.

ShyGuy
11-06-2017, 12:05 PM
There's no point to this thread and no one will change any minds. Extremes of DOH (AS) and straight relative (VX) are hopes and setting up expectations which in all likeliness will not happen. The best anyone can do is read the ALPA merger policy and let the process play itself out. Career Expectations, Longevity, and Status and Category will play the main roles. Read up on previous recent SLI decisions of Delta/NW, Co/UA, AA/US, and 9E/9L/XJ. Other than that, sit back relax and enjoy the fight. Errr, I mean flight :)

Klsytakesit
11-06-2017, 12:52 PM
Likely The Integrated Seniority list will occur entirely between 1996 and April 2016...Those senior to 1996 will be excluded and everone after April 2016 will be date of hire anyway

pete2800
11-06-2017, 02:47 PM
There's no point to this thread and no one will change any minds. Extremes of DOH (AS) and straight relative (VX) are hopes and setting up expectations which in all likeliness will not happen. The best anyone can do is read the ALPA merger policy and let the process play itself out. Career Expectations, Longevity, and Status and Category will play the main roles. Read up on previous recent SLI decisions of Delta/NW, Co/UA, AA/US, and 9E/9L/XJ. Other than that, sit back relax and enjoy the fight. Errr, I mean flight :)

I like the "career expectations" part. Right now, I expect to retire in single digits.

I'm betting that doesn't stand...

ShyGuy
11-06-2017, 03:00 PM
I like the "career expectations" part. Right now, I expect to retire in single digits.

I'm betting that doesn't stand...

Please read the document. Career Expectation doesn’t have anything to do with what you think or expect as a pilot. It’s a qualifier for narrowbody and widebody.

jayme
11-06-2017, 03:15 PM
I like the "career expectations" part. Right now, I expect to retire in single digits.

I'm betting that doesn't stand...

Single percentage digits? That shouldn’t change. If you’re 15/3000 instead of 9/1700, what’s the difference?

pete2800
11-06-2017, 04:46 PM
Single percentage digits? That shouldn’t change. If you’re 15/3000 instead of 9/1700, what’s the difference?

I'm willing to bet it will shift a lot more than that. I've actually been trying to get a copy of some date-of-hire info for the VX seniority list so I can tell exactly how it's going to go.

ShyGuy
11-06-2017, 05:43 PM
I'm willing to bet it will shift a lot more than that. I've actually been trying to get a copy of some date-of-hire info for the VX seniority list so I can tell exactly how it's going to go.

Save yourself the headache, that data won't do you any good nor can anyone tell exactly how it's going to go.

Ispeakjive
11-06-2017, 08:07 PM
So its fair if "relative position" places a 10 year Virgin Captain next to a 30 year Alaska Captain? Don't be surprised if you start seeing "Hired not Acquired" bag tags at an airport near you.

Lame. Why stoke infighting?

Packrat
11-07-2017, 06:55 AM
Please read the document. Career Expectation doesn’t have anything to do with what you think or expect as a pilot. It’s a qualifier for narrowbody and widebody.

Right. "Career expectations" replaced Date of Hire in the Merger/Fragmentation Policy in the early '90s. It was pushed at the BoD by the United Pilots (the 900 lb. gorilla at the time) when there was a United/USAir merger (which eventually failed) in the wind. The sole reason for the change was to keep USAir pilots OUT of UAL widebody seats.

With two narrowbody airlines like AS and VX the term is meaningless.

Packrat
11-07-2017, 06:58 AM
Relative Senority is the fairest thing out there, period! There maybe some concessions due to retirements being higher the next few years but besides that relative seniority is the way to go.

Only if you're a VX pilot.

Packrat
11-07-2017, 06:59 AM
Likely The Integrated Seniority list will occur entirely between 1996 and April 2016...Those senior to 1996 will be excluded and everone after April 2016 will be date of hire anyway

This makes the most sense to me. Throw a "No Bump, No Flush" clause in there to protect the VX Airbus Captains and you've got a winner.

Mea25000
11-07-2017, 09:43 AM
This SLI will be entertaining to watch play out. The first face to face meeting is almost laughable. The only thing the two sides will be able to agree upon is that there will be no deal. Once that agreement is met, the first significant blow is landed by Alaska, as the longer this draws out the better it is for us. From there on it’s catered lunches and pathetic stabs at compromise. Fall of next year we will all have our answers. I have seen this SLI run 6 different ways. Each different way bring prosperity to some section of the pilot group at the expense of another. I am pretty confident how it will end up, seeing what I have seen so far. Who knows though. This thing may shock all of us.

VirginEskimo
11-07-2017, 10:20 AM
This SLI will be entertaining to watch play out. The first face to face meeting is almost laughable. The only thing the two sides will be able to agree upon is that there will be no deal. Once that agreement is met, the first significant blow is landed by Alaska, as the longer this draws out the better it is for us. From there on it’s catered lunches and pathetic stabs at compromise. Fall of next year we will all have our answers. I have seen this SLI run 6 different ways. Each different way bring prosperity to some section of the pilot group at the expense of another. I am pretty confident how it will end up, seeing what I have seen so far. Who knows though. This thing may shock all of us.

Cop out!....If someone says they're confident, I'd like to hear it. Go ahead. We're all family here!

Klsytakesit
11-07-2017, 05:59 PM
This SLI will be entertaining to watch play out. The first face to face meeting is almost laughable. The only thing the two sides will be able to agree upon is that there will be no deal. Once that agreement is met, the first significant blow is landed by Alaska, as the longer this draws out the better it is for us.
Let me fix it for you you knucklehead......The longer this draws out the better it is for Brad and Ben. We will have no unity for sec 6 and we will vote in another”time value of money” contract.....like contract 200

EskimoJoe
11-07-2017, 09:00 PM
Let me fix it for you you knucklehead......The longer this draws out the better it is for Brad and Ben. We will have no unity for sec 6 and we will vote in another”time value of money” contract.....like contract 200

Then just roll over and forfeit your career without a bare knuckle fight? What strategy do you suggest?

Just a Lurker
11-07-2017, 09:02 PM
This makes the most sense to me. Throw a "No Bump, No Flush" clause in there to protect the VX Airbus Captains and you've got a winner.

There is already no bump, no flush in the TPA. That's a done deal.

flywest
11-08-2017, 09:25 AM
DOH is the gold standard.

mike734
11-08-2017, 12:55 PM
I'm a 20+ Alaska pilot and I expect to lose a few numbers but I also expect some sort of fence to prevent those few guys from bidding in to my base. I also expect I won't be able to bid the Bus in SFO for a few years. Maybe 5 years and by then I expect those few senior VX pilots will be retired. Of course if the Buses go away quickly, that changes everything.

ShyGuy
11-08-2017, 01:48 PM
I'm a 20+ Alaska pilot and I expect to lose a few numbers but I also expect some sort of fence to prevent those few guys from bidding in to my base. I also expect I won't be able to bid the Bus in SFO for a few years. Maybe 5 years and by then I expect those few senior VX pilots will be retired. Of course if the Buses go away quickly, that changes everything.

Why a domestic narrowbody fence? Never seen that in any recent SLIs.

Ray Red
11-08-2017, 02:05 PM
Why a domestic narrowbody fence? Never seen that in any recent SLIs.

Preserving QOL is the only reason.

svergin
11-08-2017, 05:45 PM
I'm a 20+ Alaska pilot and I expect to lose a few numbers but I also expect some sort of fence to prevent those few guys from bidding in to my base. I also expect I won't be able to bid the Bus in SFO for a few years. Maybe 5 years and by then I expect those few senior VX pilots will be retired. Of course if the Buses go away quickly, that changes everything.

Just so you know, Delta/NW, UAL/CAL, and AA/USAir there we no base fences. United guys proposed one on the 787 but it was not allowed. There were a few widebody fences, but we had a ton of United guys flood into EWR and IAH immediately after our SLI, just like we had flooded into ORD, IAD, DEN, SFO, and LAX. It sort of defeats the purpose of integrating pilots to now let anyone bid into each other's bases.

OCCP
11-08-2017, 06:14 PM
Preserving QOL is the only reason.



What QOL? The Alaska contract prevents QOL.

Mea25000
11-08-2017, 06:32 PM
Let me fix it for you you knucklehead......The longer this draws out the better it is for Brad and Ben. We will have no unity for sec 6 and we will vote in another”time value of money” contract.....like contract 200

I really feel sorry for you. You are by far one of angriest people on this board. Sadly it tells me your life is not be all that great. I hope you find some happiness. Life is more then money, my life is a whole lot more then my part time profession. Sorry I missed Contract 200... that must have been a real bad one. What were you driving back then, a camel?

Arctichicken
11-08-2017, 07:05 PM
I'm definitely not looking forward to the SLI. I'd rather see it sooner than later. It's a public forum and all but talking about the SLI is a moot point since none of us have any control over it or a say. Be good to each other, boys 'n girls.:cool:

flyguy94
11-08-2017, 08:48 PM
I'm definitely not looking forward to the SLI. I'd rather see it sooner than later. It's a public forum and all but talking about the SLI is a moot point since none of us have any control over it or a say. Be good to each other, boys 'n girls.:cool:

Dilly dilly!