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OCCP
06-13-2017, 12:40 PM
I just find it odd that you're not even on property, not yet an employee of either Alaska or Virgin and you're barking this loud, that is all. Good day!


Mea25000
06-13-2017, 02:30 PM
On your back? Riiight. That's not totally accurate.

Oh that's right VX pilots with their vast company earnings over the past decade and industry leading balance sheets were on their own going to demand and achieve industry leading pay and retirement.....right!

Work2much
06-13-2017, 03:54 PM
I just find it odd that you're not even on property, not yet an employee of either Alaska or Virgin and you're barking this loud, that is all. Good day!

Really...Another post about this? The loudest barker on this thread is not me...look in the mirror amigo.

I'm excited to jump onboard and I'm very interested in what's going on over there. I want to know what I"m getting myself into! It's a high emotion time I get it. I've been through SLI arbitration that turned out crappy for everyone and a merger along with several 121 contract negotiations. It's NOT fun and I get that it's frustrating. In the end I think Alaska will be a great place to be.


ForeverJunior
06-13-2017, 07:08 PM
Really...Another post about this? The loudest barker on this thread is not me...look in the mirror amigo.

I'm excited to jump onboard and I'm very interested in what's going on over there. I want to know what I"m getting myself into! It's a high emotion time I get it. I've been through SLI arbitration that turned out crappy for everyone and a merger along with several 121 contract negotiations. It's NOT fun and I get that it's frustrating. In the end I think Alaska will be a great place to be.

The jury is still out on that. I thought the same thing when I got hired here too. But, the shine wears off quickly.

Anyway, do what's best for you. But, it's easy to not see the negatives about this job when you're trying to get hired here. I was the same way.

I used to jumpseat on Alaska when I was with a regional. I thought the pilots were whining. "Surely, it can't be that bad."

If I was looking for a job with the majors right now, I would definitely focus on Delta. Unfortunately, they weren't hiring 11 years ago and they didn't have a Seattle base. But, I digress.

waterboy
06-14-2017, 06:41 AM
Our 401k is twice VA's

AS gets 24% 401k contribution! That's amazing. Why did I think you guys only got 13%??

GreatBigSea
06-14-2017, 07:01 AM
AS gets 24% 401k contribution! That's amazing. Why did I think you guys only got 13%??

When did VX start matching 12%?

Matching 125% of the first 6% contributed isn't 12%, its 7.5%.. or have I been getting shorted? :confused:

waterboy
06-14-2017, 07:15 AM
You also get an additional 4.5% for free which gets deposited quarterly.

4andCounting
06-14-2017, 07:40 AM
Lol, I wish there was a 20% difference in pay between us and Alaska. More like 7.5% a bit more when you consider their very poor work rules compared to legacy average. Plus we had way better bonuses, so that evens things bit.We have a long way to go on both sides.

In general thus statement illustrates the biggest problem in Alaska's group. Their lack of understanding how far behind they are and accurate knowledge of the industry as it sits today. I can't tell you how many times I've had to expose Alaska pilots to the truth of their situation since this has started. This is not ment in disrespect at all, I am excited to join these groups together. I think we will be able to accomplish a lot together. But lack of accurate information is our worst enemy right now. Everyone has to know how far we are behind in order to be able to catch up.

Sent from my SM-T810 using Tapatalk

Bugaboo
06-14-2017, 07:40 AM
When did VX start matching 12%?

Matching 125% of the first 6% contributed isn't 12%, its 7.5%.. or have I been getting shorted? :confused:

Thats sad.....you work at VA and dont even know the details of your own 401k.

Bugaboo
06-14-2017, 08:06 AM
We have only become a "bottom tier airline" for 8 months. Up to that point Delta was paying 217, SWA 216, and we are 216. Our 401k is twice VA's, most of us have some form of pension, our Medical and sick is drastically better, our pay is on average 20% higher. OC you live in a glass house. You are about to get a 40% pay increase on our backs. Show some respect and be thankful.

Another example of someone with their head stuck in the sand. Your way off base.....your alot closer to VA than what you think and alot further away, even 8 months ago, from Delta and SWA than what you think.
Do us all a favor. Take the pen out of your pocket and burst that bubble you are in.

GreatBigSea
06-14-2017, 12:10 PM
Thats sad.....you work at VA and dont even know the details of your own 401k.

Must of slept through that part of ground school :rolleyes:

Bugaboo
06-14-2017, 02:37 PM
Must of slept through that part of ground school :rolleyes:

I hear that!

Mea25000
06-14-2017, 06:21 PM
AS gets 24% 401k contribution! That's amazing. Why did I think you guys only got 13%??


No I actually get 1.9 multiplied by my years of service payed at my highest 5 years income in my last 10 + 3% 401K. I bet it will be a pretty big # after 41 years at Alaska. We can compare our retirement numbers when we retire ;)... My profit sharing was 26,329 for last year. What was yours. I am not confused, I am pretty sure you are

waterboy
06-14-2017, 07:01 PM
We have only become a "bottom tier airline" for 8 months. Up to that point Delta was paying 217, SWA 216, and we are 216. Our 401k is twice VA's, most of us have some form of pension, our Medical and sick is drastically better, our pay is on average 20% higher. OC you live in a glass house. You are about to get a 40% pay increase on our backs. Show some respect and be thankful.

AS gets 24% 401k contribution! That's amazing. Why did I think you guys only got 13%??


No I actually get 1.9 multiplied by my years of service payed at my highest 5 years income in my last 10 + 3% 401K. I bet it will be a pretty big # after 41 years at Alaska. We can compare our retirement numbers when we retire ;)... My profit sharing was 26,329 for last year. What was yours. I am not confused, I am pretty sure you are

Good for you! but next time say YOUR 401K is twice that of VAs. Not OURS. I maybe wrong, but I dont think AS' entire pilot group has the same retirement you have.

Mea25000
06-14-2017, 07:25 PM
I am now looking at what I wrote and wish I never wrote it. It serves no real purpose except for my own ego. Those #'s only tell me I hustled way to hard last year and gave up way to much of my time off. I am glad you got a good bonus at VX... Sincerely hope we both see a nice pay raise in the fall if not the end of this month.

waterboy
06-14-2017, 07:50 PM
Fixed. It's not my business to share what someone else's earnings are. But yes. Let's focus on getting ourselves paid by working together. It can get heated and emotional when it comes to work and pay. And it's really easy to get sucked into these posts. My bad. Let's keep our fingers crossed and support our JNC to ensure we get the best contract possible.

757office
06-23-2017, 03:32 PM
infuriating JNC email. so much for wanting to do this merger right and make it an example of how a merger should be done. Disgusted with alaska.

Work2much
06-23-2017, 03:45 PM
infuriating JNC email. so much for wanting to do this merger right and make it an example of how a merger should be done. Disgusted with alaska.

Care to share a little bit of what it said?

Saltlife85
06-23-2017, 07:25 PM
Company refuses to accept the reality of current industry narrow body rates, scope and retirement plans. No surprise. One more week of mediation, which IMO is pointless. We will be going to arbitration as most of us already knew. The company tried to lead us to believe that this time would be different, this will be the "gold standard" of mergers, blah blah blah. It's the same old tactics and smoke and mirrors. Our JNC guys are fighting hard to make this work at the negotiating table but unfortunately there's not much more they can do to make this company understand. Let's hope the arbitration panel can give this management team a cold hard reality check and award us what we deserve. Time will tell... October is the end of arbitration.

NotTellin
06-23-2017, 09:50 PM
infuriating JNC email. so much for wanting to do this merger right and make it an example of how a merger should be done. Disgusted with alaska.

This management team had one chance to get the VX guys onboard. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

airb320
06-24-2017, 10:51 AM
^^^ 👍...this

RJs2majors
06-24-2017, 12:53 PM
This management team had one chance to get the VX guys onboard. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

Wait until you start living under this regime full time, more specifically, scheduling and upper management. I've been a fan of Alaska Airlines ever since I started flying as a kid. I have to admit that I drank quite a bit of their Koolaid also. Let's just say that the customer experience is quite the opposite that of the employees. Consumers award the JD Powers to Angle Lake and in return, Alaska force feeds their employees with the Booby prize, aka Consolation prize, or better put, a nice kick in the nut sack. Heck, my last regional treated their employees with more respect and even had better work rules than Alaska. It didn't take long for a new guy like myself to figure out. Fortunately for me, this place will soon be just a bad memory.

Wynncore
06-24-2017, 06:38 PM
Wait until you start living under this regime full time, more specifically, scheduling and upper management. I've been a fan of Alaska Airlines ever since I started flying as a kid. I have to admit that I drank quite a bit of their Koolaid also. Let's just say that the customer experience is quite the opposite that of the employees. Consumers award the JD Powers to Angle Lake and in return, Alaska force feeds their employees with the Booby prize, aka Consolation prize, or better put, a nice kick in the nut sack. Heck, my last regional treated their employees with more respect and even had better work rules than Alaska. It didn't take long for a new guy like myself to figure out. Fortunately for me, this place will soon be just a bad memory.

How's that job search coming? I hear that job fairs score you points with DAL and UAL. A good idea would be to go to Eagle and get the flow to AA. The grass is always greener so I've been told...

BiloxiJack
06-24-2017, 07:04 PM
Wynncore, I have watched your posts since late last year when you were hired by alaska. You spout nonsense and regurgitate the koolaid you chug left and right. What are you, about 1 or 2 months off IOE now? Your opinion means roughly nothing and even less when you are condescending to people who are intelligent enough to leave this laughable airline.


How's that job search coming? I hear that job fairs score you points with DAL and UAL. A good idea would be to go to Eagle and get the flow to AA. The grass is always greener so I've been told...

RJs2majors
06-24-2017, 09:41 PM
How's that job search coming? I hear that job fairs score you points with DAL and UAL. A good idea would be to go to Eagle and get the flow to AA. The grass is always greener so I've been told...

I've been hired elsewhere and waiting for a class date. Your sarcasm will get you nowhere, smart***. You're correct on one thing, grass is much greener where I'm headed, at least that's what my friends tell me who are waiting for me.
For the sake of the great folks whom I've had the pleasure of working with here at Alaska, I wish nothing but the best for this pilot group. To JH, BT, and BM, thank you for showing your true colors. Being a Koolaid drinker for so long, I was once blind but now I see.

yeargab
06-24-2017, 10:26 PM
My last day at AS was 1 Apr. this week I'm flying an MD-11. Little purple and orange company outta MEM

OCCP
06-25-2017, 06:11 AM
Nice man! Congrats!

Pogey Bait
06-25-2017, 06:41 AM
My last day at AS was 1 Apr. this week I'm flying an MD-11. Little purple and orange company outta MEM

Are you prior military?

Packrat
06-25-2017, 07:59 AM
My last day at AS was 1 Apr. this week I'm flying an MD-11. Little purple and orange company outta MEM

While I'm happy for you, its sad that young guys are finding out so quickly what a morass AS really is. I think the whole thing turned around when Brad Tilden and the bean counters took over Angle Lake.

Wynncore
06-25-2017, 09:41 AM
I've been hired elsewhere and waiting for a class date. Your sarcasm will get you nowhere, smart***. You're correct on one thing, grass is much greener where I'm headed, at least that's what my friends tell me who are waiting for me.
For the sake of the great folks whom I've had the pleasure of working with here at Alaska, I wish nothing but the best for this pilot group. To JH, BT, and BM, thank you for showing your true colors. Being a Koolaid drinker for so long, I was once blind but now I see.

Congratulations on moving on! That's fantastic news on advancing your career. I'm glad you were able to find happiness, it's great to see those who'd like to move on do exactly that. Best of luck!

ForeverJunior
06-25-2017, 11:59 AM
While I'm happy for you, its sad that young guys are finding out so quickly what a morass AS really is. I think the whole thing turned around when Brad Tilden and the bean counters took over Angle Lake.

Meet the new boss. Same as the old boss.

ImperialxRat
06-25-2017, 05:26 PM
My last day at AS was 1 Apr. this week I'm flying an MD-11. Little purple and orange company outta MEM

The number that keeps getting thrown around the training center is that 3 FO's have left this year (attrition). I find it hard to believe that it's only 3... I've gone up over 20 numbers since I started and I think that seniority list hasn't been updated/posted since March.

Arctichicken
06-25-2017, 06:29 PM
The number that keeps getting thrown around the training center is that 3 FO's have left this year (attrition). I find it hard to believe that it's only 3... I've gone up over 20 numbers since I started and I think that seniority list hasn't been updated/posted since March.

This management has issues with insecurity and inferiority complex -Napoleon Complex.
Think double digits and rising. The communist party can take lessons from these guys in Propaganda 101.

Arctichicken
06-25-2017, 07:58 PM
Just wasted a minute of my life reading TK's latest letter. Oh what people do for a price. No real difference from those who walk the streets. Go ahead and count your money all the way to the bank. All the money in the world can't buy respect, dignity, or a soul. Speaking in sphincters is a curse.

Wynncore
06-25-2017, 08:03 PM
Just wasted a minute of my life reading TK's latest letter. Oh what people do for a price. No real difference from those who walk the streets. Go ahead and count your money all the way to the bank. All the money in the world can't buy respect, dignity, or a soul. Speaking in sphincter must be a gift.

I especially loved the line about "total compensation". Are they trying to play this card of: "Well, you have per diem, health benefits, non rev travel privileges, which, let me remind you we give you roughly 8 confirmed tickets per year, the PBP payout and the quarterly performance bonuses which all add up to your "total compensation". So therefore you should be grateful for a lowball figure of $XXX/hr etc etc"...

Is that what he meant? If they're talking this talk about hourly pay, God only knows what they're trying to do to us re: scope.

Justin Case
06-25-2017, 08:45 PM
His letter seems to violate our commenting policy by the comments not being on topic. Total compensation? I thought the TPA outlines 3 specific items? Or wait did he not get the memo. May be thats why this is taking so long.

BiloxiJack
06-26-2017, 08:36 AM
total compensation doesn't pay for my kids college tuition bills...hourly wages do.. this letter is a slap in the face. I especially loved the line about "total compensation". Are they trying to play this card of: "Well, you have per diem, health benefits, non rev travel privileges, which, let me remind you we give you roughly 8 confirmed tickets per year, the PBP payout and the quarterly performance bonuses which all add up to your "total compensation". So therefore you should be grateful for a lowball figure of $XXX/hr etc etc"...

Is that what he meant? If they're talking this talk about hourly pay, God only knows what they're trying to do to us re: scope.

Work2much
06-26-2017, 10:45 AM
total compensation doesn't pay for my kids college tuition bills...hourly wages do.. this letter is a slap in the face.

The totally compensation argument is usually reserved for the regional airlines market strategy for those struggling to fill classes. Can't really believe Alaska is using that argument.

echelon
06-26-2017, 11:46 AM
The totally compensation argument is usually reserved for the regional airlines market strategy for those struggling to fill classes. Can't really believe Alaska is using that argument.
Yeah that's a very GoJet/TSA thing to do. Classless

Ispeakjive
06-26-2017, 01:21 PM
I especially loved the line about "total compensation". Are they trying to play this card of: "Well, you have per diem, health benefits, non rev travel privileges, which, let me remind you we give you roughly 8 confirmed tickets per year, the PBP payout and the quarterly performance bonuses which all add up to your "total compensation". So therefore you should be grateful for a lowball figure of $XXX/hr etc etc"...

Is that what he meant? If they're talking this talk about hourly pay, God only knows what they're trying to do to us re: scope.

Agree with Wynncore. Mgmnt is working to "manage expectations" as they come at us with a low ball number. My take away from the TK letter: "After 3 long months of mediation in which BT and BM never cared to participate, they are optimistic that there will be a change in [our] 'perspectives'."

Throw in some qualifiers, arrogance and Glasnost, and management is hoping for their 50+1.

Wynncore
06-26-2017, 03:32 PM
TK's phrase was basically: "If Delta is $265 an hour we'll offer $235 BUT you need to consider all of the "other items" that go into your compensation like vacation time, per diem, PBP (pay no attention to the fact that we continue to make it harder and harder for us to reach annual profit goals to trigger payouts) and quarterly bonuses and voila, you're at $265 an hour! See, we're at the top of the industry! Also pay no attention to the fact that I'm not considering the "total compensation" paid out by other airlines, we're just going to focus on their hourly rates."

Really...? Pilots might be dumb but we're not stupid.

Packrat
06-26-2017, 03:59 PM
Really...? Pilots might be dumb but we're not stupid.

You might be surprised at how well that line of propaganda works...especially on the senior guys who:

1. Lived through the B-scale.
2. Were happy with the 92%/no strike clause days.

Hopefully the junior guys who got Kasherstrated/furloughed have become a voting majority.

Wynncore
06-26-2017, 04:11 PM
You might be surprised at how well that line of propaganda works...especially on the senior guys who:

1. Lived through the B-scale.
2. Were happy with the 92%/no strike clause days.

Hopefully the junior guys who got Kasherstrated/furloughed have become a voting majority.

I hope they have. I cannot speak directly for the VX pilots but from what I've noticed they are not in the slightest bit fooled by this stuff and will vote no without hesitation if this deal isn't up to snuff. Senior AS guys though might be a slightly different story based on your quote above...I hope not though.

OCCP
06-26-2017, 08:43 PM
I hope they have. I cannot speak directly for the VX pilots but from what I've noticed they are not in the slightest bit fooled by this stuff and will vote no without hesitation if this deal isn't up to snuff. Senior AS guys though might be a slightly different story based on your quote above...I hope not though.



I think you're right about the VX pilots! I hope we're all unified now

AKFishOn
06-27-2017, 12:35 PM
I've been hired elsewhere and waiting for a class date. Your sarcasm will get you nowhere, smart***. You're correct on one thing, grass is much greener where I'm headed, at least that's what my friends tell me who are waiting for me.
For the sake of the great folks whom I've had the pleasure of working with here at Alaska, I wish nothing but the best for this pilot group. To JH, BT, and BM, thank you for showing your true colors. Being a Koolaid drinker for so long, I was once blind but now I see.

RJs2majors, I PM'd you when you get a chance. Thanks, bro.

Ispeakjive
06-27-2017, 02:22 PM
I think you're right about the VX pilots! I hope we're all unified now

Ditto. Whether you've been Kashered or Cushered, we're all sick of the BS.

Jetlife
06-28-2017, 05:40 PM
I hope they have. I cannot speak directly for the VX pilots but from what I've noticed they are not in the slightest bit fooled by this stuff and will vote no without hesitation if this deal isn't up to snuff. Senior AS guys though might be a slightly different story based on your quote above...I hope not though.

Don't mistake a young airline for having just young pilots. There are lots of very experienced, very knowledgable and very proud pilots at VX. We are all wearing lanyards and not accepting a half ass JCBA, I haven't flown with anyone yet that has said that they don't expect and deserve industry standard or better on everything.

Arctichicken
06-28-2017, 06:10 PM
Don't mistake a young airline for having just young pilots. There are lots of very experienced, very knowledgable and very proud pilots at VX. We are all wearing lanyards and not accepting a half ass JCBA, I haven't flown with anyone yet that has said that they don't expect and deserve industry standard or better on everything.

I have to say that every VX pilot I've met so far have exhibited grande cajones. I'm waiting for all of this to be behind us, after we stick it to the man!:D Oh wait, arbitration......right.

Wynncore
06-29-2017, 12:00 AM
Don't mistake a young airline for having just young pilots. There are lots of very experienced, very knowledgable and very proud pilots at VX. We are all wearing lanyards and not accepting a half ass JCBA, I haven't flown with anyone yet that has said that they don't expect and deserve industry standard or better on everything.

Absolutely not, I wasn't insinuating that younger pilots predominately staff VX, apologies if it came across that way. Its great to see the solidarity and everyone coming together for a common cause. I think that "total compensation" nonsense from TK was the last straw for a lot of people.

Jetlife
06-29-2017, 08:01 AM
Absolutely not, I wasn't insinuating that younger pilots predominately staff VX, apologies if it came across that way. Its great to see the solidarity and everyone coming together for a common cause. I think that "total compensation" nonsense from TK was the last straw for a lot of people.

I didn't make it look like I was attacking you, just more stating that as a group, these pilots are ready for battle, ready to get what everyone deserves. I know Alaska has been around a long time, it is a legacy, and it is hard to get hired on to, I get that, but when you look at both Virgin and Alaska, the pilot groups are more similar than some Alaska pilots want to admit. Most Alaska pilots have been super cool but I have been snubbed in the terminal twice now. We are not B scale, we are not regional pilots. We want what we all deserve and I haven't flown or talked to a VX pilot yet that feels any differently.

BiloxiJack
06-29-2017, 08:55 AM
+1

The total compensation is particularly insulting...it's like they think we are stupid enough to compare our total compensation to their hourly wage only. Will not fall for the misdirection while they try on their personalized mariners jerseys while we grunt away for way too little. Guess what management.. when you compare our total compensation to their total compensation, we are still at the bottom of the list for doing the same job, in fact further behind when comparing it that way.

I didn't make it look like I was attacking you, just more stating that as a group, these pilots are ready for battle, ready to get what everyone deserves. I know Alaska has been around a long time, it is a legacy, and it is hard to get hired on to, I get that, but when you look at both Virgin and Alaska, the pilot groups are more similar than some Alaska pilots want to admit. Most Alaska pilots have been super cool but I have been snubbed in the terminal twice now. We are not B scale, we are not regional pilots. We want what we all deserve and I haven't flown or talked to a VX pilot yet that feels any differently.

Jetlife
06-29-2017, 06:31 PM
Annnnnnnnnnd arbitration it is...

Saltlife85
06-29-2017, 07:03 PM
Yep.. what a shocker.

OCCP
06-29-2017, 07:23 PM
There should be no company boys anymore.

ForeverJunior
06-29-2017, 07:36 PM
There should be no company boys anymore.

Unfortunately, there are... and there always will be.

airb320
06-29-2017, 07:44 PM
Disgusting !

ForeverJunior
06-29-2017, 08:03 PM
Disgusting !

That sums up AAG management.

Tilden is no different than Ayer, except Tilden fools you with his boyish smile & "aw shucks" demeanor.

There is no leadership at Angle Lake. There will never be a paradigm shift there either. They will keep squeezing their employees to the breaking point for lower than industry wages. We have let them get away with it for too long & they are hooked.

I thought this place would change a bit with Tilden in charge, but no.

I definitely have buyer's remorse & I'm going to get my stuff ready to apply elsewhere. That's 11 years of seniority to give up, but this management group's attitude will never change.

Meanwhile, I'll watch this place have a meltdown as the company tries to cover trips with terrible staffing levels.

Pogey Bait
06-30-2017, 03:45 AM
Orange lanyard....check

SP238882
06-30-2017, 05:05 AM
Two of the gents from Alaska down in SFO for interviews both discussed how they don't think ALPA is doing a good job and that they SHOULDNT ask for Delta rates, that they aren't Delta. They kept saying "Alaska solutions for Alaska problems." It definitely took me a back that they were advocating for less than what the standard is currently.

Jetlife
06-30-2017, 07:16 AM
Two of the gents from Alaska down in SFO for interviews both discussed how they don't think ALPA is doing a good job and that they SHOULDNT ask for Delta rates, that they aren't Delta. They kept saying "Alaska solutions for Alaska problems." It definitely took me a back that they were advocating for less than what the standard is currently.

It's not about asking for Delta rates, take the other legacies, take their A320 and 737 pay rates, average them, and give it to us, period. People always make the argument that there is no reason that company X shouldn't be making what they deserve. There is literally no argument that can be made as to why Alaska, ESPECIALLY after an acquisition, shouldn't be making hourly, what other legacies are making. Does that mean make widebody pay? NO! But don't try and be the oldest legacy and the best airline and pay everyone less than you should. It is disappointing to hear anyone try and tell somebody that they aren't worth what somebody else at another company is worth.

757office
06-30-2017, 07:21 AM
This place is a joke. The Alaska management and execs run this place like North Korea. They expect us to be grateful for what they choose to give us, smile for the public eye as we provide "remarkable service" and then beat us behind closed doors with their lies and deceit. Meanwhile, they drive off with their giant bonuses and send their children to private out of state colleges without so much as a thought to the expense as I sit at home eating cornflakes reading rah rah rah alaska material on pulse.

How dare they cheapen our worth by tossing out a phrase like we are not Delta..... Listen to me, you criminal, no good rotten forfore-fleshing, low-life, snake-licking, dirt-eating, inbred, overstuffed, ignorant, blood-sucking, dog-kissing, brainless, dickless, hopeless, heartless, fat-ass, bug-eyed, stiff-legged, spotty-lipped, worm-headed sack of monkey feces group of individuals called Alaska Executives.... we fly two of (your choice) the same aircraft to the same locations. We are not growing to become a bigger airline, like an actual legacy airline, because that is your choice. It is laughable that the recent awards received in Europe were in the regional airline category. YOU SHOULD BE EMBARRASSED. We will not be the "premier" airline of Puget Sound if you continue to run this place as you do. The men and women who drive this ship so to speak, have the exact qualifications as delta pilots and many of the same type ratings. Many are leaving laterally and I have a good feeling this is the last straw for many many more to finally hit submit on airline apps. You all have sunk this ship and now will have to pay the consequences. Shame on you all, you greedy pieces of garbage. You had the opportunity to refresh this pilot group and unify our goals with the companies...you now have an existing pilot group that sees an old dog with the same tricks and a new pilot group that will forever resent working here. Great work.


PS. if I wrote my open letter on pulse it probably would have gone like this....

Oh, Alaska! Thank you so much for even considering negotiating with us at mediation, it was sooo good to see our executives there so we know they care. Maybe next time you'll consider a raise on your own but still so grateful for our existing contract...maybe also throw in Phoenix to the next route announcement ;)

It's not about asking for Delta rates, take the other legacies, take their A320 and 737 pay rates, average them, and give it to us, period. People always make the argument that there is no reason that company X shouldn't be making what they deserve. There is literally no argument that can be made as to why Alaska, ESPECIALLY after an acquisition, shouldn't be making hourly, what other legacies are making. Does that mean make widebody pay? NO! But don't try and be the oldest legacy and the best airline and pay everyone less than you should. It is disappointing to hear anyone try and tell somebody that they aren't worth what somebody else at another company is worth.

Packrat
06-30-2017, 12:42 PM
Annnnnnnnnnd arbitration it is...

Jetlife,

I think part of the misunderstanding was one of my posts. Historically, the senior AS pilot group has had something of a "Stockholm Syndrome" with AS management. At one point we actually traded a no-strike clause in the contract for a pay formula that was 92% of the average of the major carriers that flew the same equipment.

One pay rate was extended to all the jets. If you flew the 737-200 you were getting a bit more than average, the MD about average and the 727 a bit less than average. It also expedited contract talks.

A bunch of those guys also lived through the B-scale.

The "younger pilots" comment referred to the guys hired after that issue went away. Unfortunately, they were the ones who got hammered the worst by Kasher. To add insult to injury, they were the ones who got furloughed for up to 3 years.

My take is that once the senior guys started retiring, the younger generation would eventually have the number of votes that could make the pilot group stand up for what they have so richly deserved all these years. From the tone of these threads, it looks like that may finally have come to pass.

The "younger pilots" comment had NOTHING to do with VX.

PNWFlyer
06-30-2017, 01:26 PM
Check your work email and watch the video.

I found it very depressing.

ForeverJunior
06-30-2017, 01:33 PM
Check your work email and watch the video.

I found it very depressing.

Shameless & arrogant & clueless...

They are trying to divide the pilot group, as predicted. The DB plan thing is BS.

Mu union speaks for me. Quit trying to negotiate directly with the pilots. Most of us don't drink the Kool-Aid.

grasshoppr
06-30-2017, 01:49 PM
Check your work email and watch the video.

I found it very depressing.

Still pushing on that "total compensation" angle.

How about NO.

Arctichicken
06-30-2017, 01:49 PM
Theses guys are completely out to lunch! Un-f'ing believable. Blind and arrogant at its best. Better to have a conversation with a pet hamster than talking to these azzclowns. Pour some more fuel to the fire why don't you, BT & BM! ******* it, arbitration it is. No more side line meetings. I'm more disenchanted with this pathetic mega regional than after Kasher. Did these guys receive their education from Pyongyang University?!?!

BiloxiJack
06-30-2017, 02:26 PM
If I wanted to I wanted to watch 5 minutes of hyperbole and lies I would have turned on CNN. At least their hogwash is creative. Go f yourselves Alaska.

Super stoked that you idiots add "some but not all pilots" very expensive pension plan into my total compensation when I don't get that benefit. You arrogant pricks.

OCCP
06-30-2017, 02:56 PM
That video is ridiculous and won't work on me. Nice try, now open your wallet!!!!! What a bunch of jokers

lukedpilot03
06-30-2017, 03:04 PM
WOW, just WOW. Again, total compensation does NOT pay my current bills and provide for my family. FUPM!!!

ExFokkerFlyer
06-30-2017, 04:16 PM
VX guy here... After 10+ years of hearing verbal diarrhea out of the mouths of morons, really nothing surprises me anymore. But, I have to say, the video gave me a good chuckle. Directly out of the "union busting" playbook with no pretense of subtlety or nuance. Divide and conquer...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

LineGrinder400
06-30-2017, 09:14 PM
"Total compensation": Ahhhh... now I get the reasoning behind the pile of positive space tickets accumulated over the years given from management for winning various BS corporate awards.

Boy.. when I add in these heavily restricted, often useless tickets into my total compensation I suppose we really should be asking for a cut to our rates to reduce the guilt of how much we're being gifted in "TOTAL compensation"

Maybe all of the "Good jobs!" and "Thank you's for all your doing!" comments also received over the years should be added into our "total compensation" package as well. The possibilities are endless!

This is an insult to our intelligence. Market rates and scope. It's not that complicated.

Jetlife
06-30-2017, 09:39 PM
Sorry if I don’t feel bad because I want what I deserve, and that a B scale you gave to some pilots is costing you money. So because they are costing you more I have to suffer? Sorry not sorry...

ShyGuy
07-01-2017, 07:54 AM
"Total compensation": Ahhhh... now I get the reasoning behind the pile of positive space tickets accumulated over the years given from management for winning various BS corporate awards.

Boy.. when I add in these heavily restricted, often useless tickets into my total compensation I suppose we really should be asking for a cut to our rates to reduce the guilt of how much we're being gifted in "TOTAL compensation"

Maybe all of the "Good jobs!" and "Thank you's for all your doing!" comments also received over the years should be added into our "total compensation" package as well. The possibilities are endless!

This is an insult to our intelligence. Market rates and scope. It's not that complicated.

Don't forget crew meals! Delta domestic doesn't get them. Think of all the money you can save on airport food.

:o

757office
07-01-2017, 08:22 AM
also don't forget their stupid employee monthly giveaways where you may win a "gently used" expo marker and an old t-shirt they had extras of. That needs to be added to the total compensation as well.


Thanks for the video dear great leaders....i forgot about you having to pay the pension fund for the guys here before me and now understand why you can't give me a raise when you need to pay them my deserved money! we love you great leader, you know whats best for us.

Actual photo of those two geniuses we call boss after they filmed the divide and conquer short.


https://video-images.vice.com/articles/590b1abe11174b1ca574a4ec/lede/1493900827714-160210-north-korea-2230_75e488f50468a97dc27052e4d3794e67nbcnews-ux-2880-1000.jpeg

Don't forget crew meals! Delta domestic doesn't get them. Think of all the money you can save on airport food.

:o

airb320
07-01-2017, 08:49 AM
Alaska Air Groups profit margins do not show that they have "a very expensive Pension Plan" what it does show is that they...

A. are slaves to the board and shareholders

B. have no problem folding this "expensive" plan into their strategy

... time to pay up on a concessionary contract, period !

Chris99
07-01-2017, 09:43 AM
Out of curiosity, is Horizon's difficulty with staffing flights going to add to your leverage at all? You guys should be getting close to Delta rates. Don't let them talk you out of it--you guys are negotiating at a good time.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

Spudhauler
07-01-2017, 01:27 PM
Don't forget crew meals! Delta domestic doesn't get them. Think of all the money you can save on airport food.

:o

If the flight is beyond 5 and half hours we do. You guys should get our contract plus. Good luck to you!

Arctichicken
07-01-2017, 07:02 PM
I was just as upset as the next guy after watching the latest union busting video by BT an BM. It didn't take long to get over the anger and now, I'm just sad. It's disheartening to see the BOD and this management destroy the airgroup, piece by piece. I haven't seen morale in such a low state since I've been here and I'm not just talking about the pilot group. It's also the CSAs and FAs whom we directly interface with at work. Managers and BOD members come and go but we as employees are always left hanging. They sail off into the sunset with millions which were made off of our backs. This viscious cycle isn't anything new but it's still disheartening. These greedy, arrogant, narcissistic, soulless excuse for human beings are no different than prostitutes in my book. These so called executives will do anything for a buck. They posses a sick skill where they can look straight into your eyes and lie without twitching even once. In fact, every time their lips move, they're lying. In essence, they are the ultimate spin doctors. What they don't realize is that everything they do backfires and only fuels our unity. Perhaps it's time to rewrite your playbook, Mr. Management. Ya think?
It's pretty obvious that the camp fire has completely extinguished and management has run out of logs. The song Kumbaya is and will no longer be on our playlist, ever.

Ray Red
07-02-2017, 07:16 AM
I'm just an outsider and casual observer but how did the binding arbitration for the JCBA come about? Is it something the union (leadership) agreed to? If so, that is where the anger and outrage should be directed. After seeing what happened with Kasher, why would any pilot agree to go down this path again?

BiloxiJack
07-02-2017, 07:22 AM
I don't know the answer to this question, maybe someone else more in the know does...

What I do know, is all the communication regarding the mediation stated that the company never took it seriously and never once acknowledged the negotiating climate in today's market. In my personal opinion, they seemed way too happy to get to a binding arbitration throughout this process... which is a huge concern and makes me wonder what slight of hand they have pulled with the arbitrator while we weren't looking.
I'm just an outsider and casual observer but how did the binding arbitration for the JCBA come about? Is it something the union (leadership) agreed to? If so, that is where the anger and outrage should be directed. After seeing what happened with Kasher, why would any pilot agree to go down this path again?

Ray Red
07-02-2017, 07:26 AM
I don't know the answer to this question, maybe someone else more in the know does...

What I do know, is all the communication regarding the mediation stated that the company never took it seriously and never once acknowledged the negotiating climate in today's market. In my personal opinion, they seemed way too happy to get to a binding arbitration throughout this process... which is a huge concern and makes me wonder what slight of hand they have pulled with the arbitrator while we weren't looking.

Exactly. With binding arbitration on the horizon, why would the company even need to negotiate? They know that they will win in arbitration.

Justin Case
07-02-2017, 09:37 AM
Yep. With unlimited amount of money they buy the best strategists. The company knows what they are doing. Most of us knew we were always headed to arbitration. This last angle of using the DB against us is ingenious. First it provides for "divide and conquer." Second it sets them up for arbitration. Knowing that the arbitrator wants to keep his job, he won't go rogue. Back to the old "split the baby" compromise. So my guess is we keep retirement the same with a small % increase to match industry. That is +1 for the pilots. Pay will be in the middle. So that is 0 for both. But the most important thing the company is going for is no scope. That is +1 for the company. Its a tie. One big happy family again!

Flyfish49
07-02-2017, 09:56 AM
Yep. With unlimited amount of money they buy the best strategists. The company knows what they are doing. Most of us knew we were always headed to arbitration. This last angle of using the DB against us is ingenious. First it provides for "divide and conquer." Second it sets them up for arbitration. Knowing that the arbitrator wants to keep his job, he won't go rogue. Back to the old "split the baby" compromise. So my guess is we keep retirement the same with a small % increase to match industry. That is +1 for the pilots. Pay will be in the middle. So that is 0 for both. But the most important thing the company is going for is no scope. That is +1 for the company. Its a tie. One big happy family again!

Nailed it.

Work2much
07-02-2017, 11:18 AM
Do we know who the arbitrator is this time around?

ShyGuy
07-02-2017, 11:35 AM
I'm just an outsider and casual observer but how did the binding arbitration for the JCBA come about? Is it something the union (leadership) agreed to? If so, that is where the anger and outrage should be directed. After seeing what happened with Kasher, why would any pilot agree to go down this path again?

This whole process is spelled out in current Alaska's scope/merger section 1:

2. Collective Bargaining Agreements:
The respective pilot collective bargaining agreements shall be merged into one (1) agreement as the result of negotiations among the pilot groups and the / / Company and the other air carrier in the Transaction as applicable . If the parties have not reached a single pilot collective bargaining agreement under this paragraph, the parties shall negotiate until such time as they have either reached agreement on an amended collective bargaining agreement or, alternatively, are determined to have reached impasse by a mediator employed by the National Mediation Board. Should an impasse be declared, the parties will submit all issues open between them to a panel of three (3) neutral arbitrators selected from a list provided by the National Mediation Board. The interest arbitration hearing shall be completed within three (3) months of the date of submission to the panel of arbitrators, and the panel’s decision shall be issued no later than thirty (30) days after the close of the hearing.

ShyGuy
07-02-2017, 11:38 AM
Do we know who the arbitrator is this time around?

It's a 3 arbitrator panel, like the AS pilot contract requires in this case. One is the current mediator. The other two are announced in union communications. It's in the TPA.

GreatBigSea
07-02-2017, 01:28 PM
Do we know who the arbitrator is this time around?

Josh Javits is the big dog. You should be familiar, he handle the Compass new hire bonus grievance... among others.

busbusbaby
07-04-2017, 12:34 PM
Do we know who the arbitrator is this time around?
1) TheNeutralMediatorwillbeJoshuaM.Javits.
2) TheNeutralMediatorwillalsoserveastheChairmanoftheN eutralPanelofArbitrators under Section 2.G. In any such arbitration, the Neutral Mediator/Chairman may disclose to the other two Neutral Arbitrators information obtained during the mediation process, but only if and to the extent the Neutral Mediator/Chairman determines that such information is relevant to consideration of the issues to be decided by the Neutral Panel of Arbitrators.
3) TheAirlinePartiestogetherandALPAwilleachpayone-half(1/2)ofthemediationfees and expenses of the Neutral Mediator.
4) TheNeutralMediatorwillcommencemediationassoonasitc anbescheduledafter failure of negotiations under Section 2.C., or after failure of approval or ratification (and any subsequent negotiations) under Section 2.E., as applicable.
5) TheNeutralMediatorwillconductmediationuntilsuchtim easanagreementisreached on all open issues or the Neutral Mediator determines that the Airline Parties and ALPA have reached impasse.
6) IftheNegotiatorsreachatentativeagreementonallopeni ssuesduringmediation,the tentative JCBA will be submitted for approvals and ratification in accordance with Section 2.E.
G. Arbitration. If the Neutral Mediator determines the parties to be at an impasse, then the Airline Parties and ALPA will proceed to arbitration pursuant to the following procedures.
1) TheNeutralMediatorunderSection2.FwillbetheChairoft heNeutralArbitration Panel. The other two (2) Neutral Arbitrators will be Fred Horowitz and John LaRocco.

LaRocco can't be at the arbitration meetings so Richard Bloch will replace him.

Ispeakjive
07-04-2017, 12:56 PM
Has anyone suggested to BT/BM that they find a bunch of H-1P visa holders who are pilots? This allow for importation of tens of thousands of semi-competent foreigners to perform work that highly-qualified Americans won't do for crap wages. Doesn't that sound like a swell idea for improving the diversity and profitability of their regime?

Work2much
07-04-2017, 04:02 PM
1) TheNeutralMediatorwillbeJoshuaM.Javits.
2) TheNeutralMediatorwillalsoserveastheChairmanoftheN eutralPanelofArbitrators under Section 2.G. In any such arbitration, the Neutral Mediator/Chairman may disclose to the other two Neutral Arbitrators information obtained during the mediation process, but only if and to the extent the Neutral Mediator/Chairman determines that such information is relevant to consideration of the issues to be decided by the Neutral Panel of Arbitrators.
3) TheAirlinePartiestogetherandALPAwilleachpayone-half(1/2)ofthemediationfees and expenses of the Neutral Mediator.
4) TheNeutralMediatorwillcommencemediationassoonasitc anbescheduledafter failure of negotiations under Section 2.C., or after failure of approval or ratification (and any subsequent negotiations) under Section 2.E., as applicable.
5) TheNeutralMediatorwillconductmediationuntilsuchtim easanagreementisreached on all open issues or the Neutral Mediator determines that the Airline Parties and ALPA have reached impasse.
6) IftheNegotiatorsreachatentativeagreementonallopeni ssuesduringmediation,the tentative JCBA will be submitted for approvals and ratification in accordance with Section 2.E.
G. Arbitration. If the Neutral Mediator determines the parties to be at an impasse, then the Airline Parties and ALPA will proceed to arbitration pursuant to the following procedures.
1) TheNeutralMediatorunderSection2.FwillbetheChairoft heNeutralArbitration Panel. The other two (2) Neutral Arbitrators will be Fred Horowitz and John LaRocco.

LaRocco can't be at the arbitration meetings so Richard Bloch will replace him.

That's interesting. Horowitz was a staff attorney for ALPA back in the late 70s and early 80s and worked with Bloch during the Delta debacle in 2006. Bloch came up with some ridiculous SLI for Pinnacle/Mesaba/Colgan back in 2012 so I have nothing good to say about him. He also arbitrated the Delta/NWA SLI. He's pretty ruthless and sides with management more often than not.

Klsytakesit
07-04-2017, 06:26 PM
Has anyone suggested to BT/BM that they find a bunch of H-1P visa holders who are pilots? This allow for importation of tens of thousands of semi-competent foreigners to perform work that highly-qualified Americans won't do for crap wages. Doesn't that sound like a swell idea for improving the diversity and profitability of their regime?
Currently Alaska Airlines only hires 32% of the qualified applicants that apply and that is more than enough for any staffing plan currently in place. The storyline that has staffing issues from pilots leaving or not applying being our savior is DOA. We have to do this one and all the rest from inside our own group. One inch at a time.

Foodstamps
07-04-2017, 09:20 PM
Don't mistake a young airline for having just young pilots. There are lots of very experienced, very knowledgable and very proud pilots at VX. We are all wearing lanyards and not accepting a half ass JCBA, I haven't flown with anyone yet that has said that they don't expect and deserve industry standard or better on everything.

Amen Jetlife. I'm VX and I echo the same, after TK's "inspirational" emails we were all unified. After BT/BM's video we became steadfast.

If management thinks for a second this combined pilot group isn't aware the Kasher contract ALREADY paid for the DB group UPFRONT in concessions - benefits by the way I agree should be paid in full - they are fooling themselves.

We are unified, we are well informed, we will not stand for anything less than industry standard and prior commitments already bankrolled by a horrible contract should be 100% honored and are not of the remainder of the pilot group's concern.

Pay your pilots what they are worth, honor your commitments you have made. It's simple. If you cannot conduct business within the bounds of ethical behavior, I hope your misdeeds become public for all to see. Corporate greed is disgusting and today's consumers will not stand for it. They have had enough. So have your employees. Do the right thing.

Foodstamps
07-04-2017, 09:29 PM
Unfortunately, there are... and there always will be.

WWHHYYYY? Someone needs to talk some sense into those fools. A serious come to baby jebus talk.

Foodstamps
07-04-2017, 09:51 PM
"Total compensation": Ahhhh... now I get the reasoning behind the pile of positive space tickets accumulated over the years given from management for winning various BS corporate awards.

Boy.. when I add in these heavily restricted, often useless tickets into my total compensation I suppose we really should be asking for a cut to our rates to reduce the guilt of how much we're being gifted in "TOTAL compensation"

Maybe all of the "Good jobs!" and "Thank you's for all your doing!" comments also received over the years should be added into our "total compensation" package as well. The possibilities are endless!

This is an insult to our intelligence. Market rates and scope. It's not that complicated.

Exactly. Fu©K you, pay me. For those of you unaware, Google "union busting playbook". As Line said, this is EXACTLY what management seeks to do - divide the employee group, and conquer. It won't work. Too many of us at VX have seen this played out before, as have many of you at ALK.

No more.

Management: Honor your commitments to the DB pilot group since you have already wringed the entire Kasher group to pay for it all, and then pay us from your highest margins in the industry. WE MAKE THAT HAPPEN, NOT YOU.

Pay accordingly. Or should we just start with an industry average base salary and tie to senior management pay?

That would sure be interesting, BT/BM.

Your move.

Yetifan
07-04-2017, 11:13 PM
Exactly. Fu©K you, pay me. For those of you unaware, Google "union busting playbook". As Line said, this is EXACTLY what management seeks to do - divide the employee group, and conquer. It won't work. Too many of us at VX have seen this played out before, as have many of you at ALK

You do realize you're in arbitration? It's at the mercy of the arbitrator short of filing a lawsuit if you don't like his decision...

Saltlife85
07-05-2017, 03:36 AM
^^ This ^^

Our fate is now in the hands of the arbitrators and the panel. Although I FIRMLY believe we should, and must be paid in line with our peers, I highly doubt the arbitrators will see it that way. Hope I'm wrong ..

Jetlife
07-05-2017, 05:10 AM
Another important thing to remember, is once the arbitrator rules, management will make an announcement about how happy they are that we got what we got, and we have a JCBA. They deserve zero credit as they not only didn’t help to achieve a JCBA, they actively tried to convince the pilot group that the union is to blame.

Foodstamps
07-05-2017, 09:17 AM
Another important thing to remember, is once the arbitrator rules, management will make an announcement about how happy they are that we got what we got, and we have a JCBA. They deserve zero credit as they not only didn’t help to achieve a JCBA, they actively tried to convince the pilot group that the union is to blame.

They have already begun the flag waving and propping each other up as the good guys, they've been doing it for some time now even after dragging the TPA out as long as possible, etc. It's pretty disgusting. I was really hoping for some guys who weren't as two-sided as management 1.0, but I suppose that was naive.

I'm just excited it's well on its way to being over, and welcome arbitration at this point. At least there is a deadline. Come mid October things will improve at least to some degree and that, we can all be thankful for.

Foodstamps
07-05-2017, 09:31 AM
"You do realize you're in arbitration? It's at the mercy of the arbitrator short of filing a lawsuit if you don't like his decision..."

Yes I do, but the video by BT/BM was still made, almost explicitly - to create a divide between those within the group (DB holders pre 2010, and post 2010 hires) so we would influence our union reps, ala the union busting playbook.

For anyone paying attention (arbitration or not) this tactic is not working and in fact it's attempt at dividing us just unifies us further. The hard working men and women at Alaska who took concessions under Kasher have already paid for their defined benefit plan by working for poor pay and crummy work rules all these years. They/we don't need to pay for it again, even though that's what BT/BM imply in their video and what TK implies in his nonsensical emails. It's already been funded.

The arbitrators are smarter than anyone in this chat room, myself included, and will look at all sides. They will look at past and present, Alaska's ability to pay, (margins through the roof because of cheap labor) the current job market and look to the future.

I think we have greener pastures ahead and I'm confident in my reps to get us there. They know what we want and they speak for us. We won't be divided, we won't turn on each other and we all deserve industry standard. It's 2017, not 2001 or 2009. No need to give anything up, concede to anything less than standard.

Flitestar
07-05-2017, 09:48 AM
That's interesting. Horowitz was a staff attorney for ALPA back in the late 70s and early 80s and worked with Bloch during the Delta debacle in 2006. Bloch came up with some ridiculous SLI for Pinnacle/Mesaba/Colgan back in 2012 so I have nothing good to say about him. He also arbitrated the Delta/NWA SLI. He's pretty ruthless and sides with management more often than not.

Reading that Bloch is involved in this arbitration is the worst news I've read in this entire Alaska sub forum ...

Arctichicken
07-05-2017, 11:06 AM
Arbitration is never ideal but looks like it's our fate. By now, everyone should be aware of the kind of management group we are dealing with. These guys are on par with Lorenzo except puzzle palace can keep a straight face as they slowly insert that dull knife into your back with one hand while the other hand is busy jerking off its BODs.

I'm proud of our JNC/MEC for being our voice and acting like a true union for once. I'm also confident that our JNC will not entertain the thought of sending out a mediocre 11th hour side line deal, if it were to be presented by this two faced management and BOD. As someone have said, this is not 2005 and it sure hell isn't 2009 and 2013. With 25% profit margins along with forecasted record profits, we are more than entitled and deserving of our share! It's our time. Pay up, biahtch!

Packrat
07-05-2017, 02:26 PM
The arbitrators are smarter than anyone in this chat room, myself included, and will look at all sides. They will look at past and present, Alaska's ability to pay, (margins through the roof because of cheap labor) the current job market and look to the future.

You might be surprised at what arbitrators look at. Its going to depend on who makes the most convincing case moving forward. Look no further than the last arbitration.

The arbitrator did that with everything EXCEPT pay. At the outset he stated it would be "baseball" arbitration...one side or the other. Guess who won. Hint: It wasn't the pilots.

Be careful what you wish for. Your base assumption may be erroneous.

Strawpile
07-05-2017, 02:54 PM
What makes you think it will be baseball-style arbitration again? I thought that was something that was agreed upon ahead of time. I heard it would not be this time. Does anyone know the answer to this?

PNWFlyer
07-05-2017, 08:18 PM
What makes you think it will be baseball-style arbitration again? know the answer to this?

Because it is Baseball season?

Wynncore
07-05-2017, 11:05 PM
These guys are on par with Lorenzo except puzzle palace can keep a straight face as they slowly insert that dull knife into your back with one hand while the other hand is busy jerking off its BODs.

Without a doubt that is the quote of the year.

From watching the video I was very disappointed to see them bluntly go after the defined benefit plan in the manner in which they did. FWIW from what BT was saying it did give me reason to think that mgmt will approach the pilot group just prior to the arbitration ruling date with a deal for our MECs to review etc. Did anyone else think this?

Saltlife85
07-06-2017, 03:32 AM
I think that a last mintute sideline deal from management is possible. However, if these clowns think they are going to get a 51% contract out past our MEC's they are mistaken. The MEC will not send something out for us to ratify if it's not solid in all areas and reflects what our collective voices have been saying for a long time. We want scope, pay, and retirement benefits that mirror our peers at the big 4. If it doesn't have industry standard or leading language with regards to the above, they will never sign off on it for a vote.. And I highly doubt AS management will suddenly come to grips with reality and agree to terms that the MEC can swallow.

Foodstamps
07-06-2017, 07:27 AM
Arbitration is never ideal but looks like it's our fate. By now, everyone should be aware of the kind of management group we are dealing with. These guys are on par with Lorenzo except puzzle palace can keep a straight face as they slowly insert that dull knife into your back with one hand while the other hand is busy jerking off its BODs.

I'm proud of our JNC/MEC for being our voice and acting like a true union for once. I'm also confident that our JNC will not entertain the thought of sending out a mediocre 11th hour side line deal, if it were to be presented by this two faced management and BOD. As someone have said, this is not 2005 and it sure hell isn't 2009 and 2013. With 25% profit margins along with forecasted record profits, we are more than entitled and deserving of our share! It's our time. Pay up, biahtch!

My thoughts exactly Arctic, look forward to flying with ya!

Foodstamps
07-06-2017, 07:41 AM
What makes you think it will be baseball-style arbitration again? I thought that was something that was agreed upon ahead of time. I heard it would not be this time. Does anyone know the answer to this?

I've spoken with the VX reps a lot and the good news about our process is part of the mediation panel will be on the arbitration panel. What they, that portion of the arbitration panel, has seen so far from the union is our guys showing up prepared, well educated, on time and eager/ready to make a real deal.

What they have seen from the company is a TPA process longer than any in recent history, unpreparedness, blatant stalling, misinformation, crying poor directly contrary to everything they say to shareholders and file in their 10-K, -
See here (http://phx.corporate-ir.net/External.File?t=1&item=VHlwZT0yfFBhcmVudElEPTUyNTE1NjJ8Q2hpbGRJRD02N jQyMDE=) and disregard for current industry norms in this economic climate.

So, were I the arbitrator that had just watched all this unfold since April 4th 2016 and had read all the cliff notes, I'd have a pretty good working knowledge of who I respect more. Who came to deal. Who isn't wasting my time.

I think we will be just fine, and my union speaks for me. BT/BM will find out real quick that they may not in fact be the smartest guys in the room. Time will tell.

Honestable
07-06-2017, 10:15 AM
"Sorry guys - we're totally broke. No money for market rate."

http://i.imgur.com/hYBIqKl.jpg
http://imgur.com/hYBIqKl

BiloxiJack
07-06-2017, 10:37 AM
^haha.. between this and cnn gifs, it's been a pretty good internet day.

DrJekyll MrHyde
07-06-2017, 04:26 PM
So, just out of curiosity. Did your MEC agree to a binding arbitration prior to a year of mediated sessions? Is it outlined in Virgin or Alaska pilot's old CBAs? Arbitration is certainly rolling the dice, just curious how your collective pilot group has arrived at this point. And best of luck, arbitrators are a squirrelly bunch.

GearBoy
07-07-2017, 09:25 AM
Brad + Benito = Branito

Yes,
11-th hour deals are SOP, right out of the playbook. They've worked in the past. Expect them again. But, the demographics have changed. The 92%-ers are out-numbered this time around. 30% are relative new-hires, then there's a bunch of the hugest Kasher recipients and now, Virgin. 50% plus 1 is a hard sell. But, if anyone can do it for Branito, it'll be the Alaska pilots. They've done it in the past, over and over again.

Commit to Compete !!!!!

Yetifan
07-07-2017, 01:24 PM
Brad + Benito = Branito

Yes,
11-th hour deals are SOP, right out of the playbook. They've worked in the past. Expect them again. But, the demographics have changed. The 92%-ers are out-numbered this time around. 30% are relative new-hires, then there's a bunch of the hugest Kasher recipients and now, Virgin. 50% plus 1 is a hard sell. But, if anyone can do it for Branito, it'll be the Alaska pilots. They've done it in the past, over and over again.

Commit to Compete !!!!!

I don't think the Alaska guys are that dumb these days. We'll see!

ShyGuy
07-07-2017, 02:19 PM
So, just out of curiosity. Did your MEC agree to a binding arbitration prior to a year of mediated sessions? Is it outlined in Virgin or Alaska pilot's old CBAs? Arbitration is certainly rolling the dice, just curious how your collective pilot group has arrived at this point. And best of luck, arbitrators are a squirrelly bunch.

VX doesn't have a CBA. The only process left to follow was what's in AS's current contract, and their Section 1 spells out exactly what is being done now.

MiLtoMajor123
07-08-2017, 10:45 AM
Isn't the Union to blame for allowing arbitration in the first place? We give up our biggest Trump card. Of course the Company is going to strong arm us and stall as long as possible to force the process to get to the Arbitrator. Because we agreed to an Arbitrator, the Union already negotiates with a hand tied behind its back and in essence can only negotiate from a position of weakness.

MiLtoMajor123
07-08-2017, 10:57 AM
Don't hate the player...hate the game. Lol

Yetifan
07-08-2017, 02:26 PM
Isn't the Union to blame for allowing arbitration in the first place? We give up our biggest Trump card. Of course the Company is going to strong arm us and stall as long as possible to force the process to get to the Arbitrator. Because we agreed to an Arbitrator, the Union already negotiates with a hand tied behind its back and in essence can only negotiate from a position of weakness.

Weren't you instructed not to post on here for a while until you learn a thing or two?

OCCP
07-08-2017, 02:36 PM
MiltoMajor,

You just don't get it, man. Again... get some airline experience under your belt before you run your mouth.

MiLtoMajor123
07-08-2017, 03:23 PM
I haven't been instructed to do anything. I'm looking for information and would appreciate some constructive feedback. I heard this argument from other AS pilots that I have personally flown with....so here i am, someone new getting info from other seasoned AS pilots....trying to bounce it off other pilots to see what the positions are. I'm not here to stir any pot. I'm here to learn and to make sure we have the strongest pilot group possible.

My question is...would WE as AS pilots, allow arbitration to happen again in our next negotiation? Is that something we will see again?

Klsytakesit
07-08-2017, 04:25 PM
I haven't been instructed to do anything. I'm looking for information and would appreciate some constructive feedback. I heard this argument from other AS pilots that I have personally flown with....so here i am, someone new getting info from other seasoned AS pilots....trying to bounce it off other pilots to see what the positions are. I'm not here to stir any pot. I'm here to learn and to make sure we have the strongest pilot group possible.

My question is...would WE as AS pilots, allow arbitration to happen again in our next negotiation? Is that something we will see again?
Arbitration for a full contract negotiation. Never. We bought that right with the Kasher arbitration. Prior to that we were bound to arbitration for every contract. For merger/aquisition stuff we will likely always end up in arbitration...That is the legal standard...Apples and oranges are what you are comparing

MiLtoMajor123
07-08-2017, 04:30 PM
Arbitration for a full contract negotiation. Never. We bought that right with the Kasher arbitration. Prior to that we were bound to arbitration for every contract. For merger/aquisition stuff we will likely always end up in arbitration...That is the legal standard...Apples and oranges are what you are comparing


Thank you for the clarification. Clears things up nicely!

Klsytakesit
07-08-2017, 04:44 PM
[QUOTE=MiLtoMajor123;2391619]Thank you for the clarification. Clears things up nicely![/QUOT
When I was new( and in the dark),
ther were no message boards. Amen. No way to get "yelled at" back in those days. Had to read the contract 158 times and the railway labor act 43 times and some stuff about commercial contract law a dozen times.( No degree was required back then and I dont have one. Thus the multiple readings). "Flying the Line part 1 and 2 helped as well. And a large dose of listening with my mouth closed. Some predictable patterns developed out of all that...That and 19 years of repeats. Good luck on your "vision quest".....

Busdriver320
07-08-2017, 11:43 PM
Does AS have some sort of "551 rule" where a second leg can't be built into a day that has a first leg of 5:51 or greater? There's some discussion about it on a VX forum but it doesn't seem to be in the CBA or LOAs

Mudhen200
07-09-2017, 05:26 AM
Yah, I think that's a rule. It is not in the contract. There are lots and lots of things that crew planning and crew scheds does that is not in the contract.
This 551 rule would be a rule that they made up for "safety". Just like the 4 legs per duty period limit (we use to do 5 legs through Southeast every day).

The big picture for you (assuming you are VX) is that the quality of your life as you know it today is about to change. AK = 15% commuters. VX = 80% commuters. Come December, you are going to be bidding mostly non-commutable lines. I predict that we will start parking airbuses all over the system by March due to lack of crews. Those who can will leave. Those you don't leave will start burning sick time so they can actually have more than 48 hours at home.
I know that VX guys think that PBS will cure all that is wrong, but trust me - you do not want to give our management and our crew scheds a PBS system. Besides, the PBS discussion is at least 2 years away, more than likely 4 years from now before we could actually accomplish a formal section 6 negotiations. By then most of the VX guys who need PBS will be gone, the airbus will be gone, and we can negotiate $500 an hour in exchange for PBS (That's my number cuz I know how bad it would make my QOL).

DrJekyll MrHyde
07-09-2017, 06:24 AM
VX doesn't have a CBA. The only process left to follow was what's in AS's current contract, and their Section 1 spells out exactly what is being done now.

Thank you.

Packrat
07-09-2017, 07:14 AM
My question is...would WE as AS pilots, allow arbitration to happen again in our next negotiation? Is that something we will see again?

Unless the Company loses this arbitration big I'd say yes. Dragging out the contract negotiations as long as possible through mediation and arbitration is a standard AS procedure. BTDT.

The only exception was in the years that they convinced the MEC leadership to give them a concessionary contract. The "If you don't give us what we need we'll grow Jet America and shrink Alaska" year, for example. Of course that was all before Membership Ratification as well.

I think the demographic of AS pilots (+VX pilots) has changed enough that things may finally get better with regard to contract negotiations. Of course, you have to educate the Anglers that things have changed so that may be your next challenge.

AJ Crowley
07-09-2017, 07:17 AM
Yah, I think that's a rule. It is not in the contract. There are lots and lots of things that crew planning and crew scheds does that is not in the contract.
This 551 rule would be a rule that they made up for "safety". Just like the 4 legs per duty period limit (we use to do 5 legs through Southeast every day).

The big picture for you (assuming you are VX) is that the quality of your life as you know it today is about to change. AK = 15% commuters. VX = 80% commuters. Come December, you are going to be bidding mostly non-commutable lines. I predict that we will start parking airbuses all over the system by March due to lack of crews. Those who can will leave. Those you don't leave will start burning sick time so they can actually have more than 48 hours at home.
I know that VX guys think that PBS will cure all that is wrong, but trust me - you do not want to give our management and our crew scheds a PBS system. Besides, the PBS discussion is at least 2 years away, more than likely 4 years from now before we could actually accomplish a formal section 6 negotiations. By then most of the VX guys who need PBS will be gone, the airbus will be gone, and we can negotiate $500 an hour in exchange for PBS (That's my number cuz I know how bad it would make my QOL).

We will be negotiating a scheduling MOU. I'm sure that MOU will be a slow process, but we are not waiting for section 6 negotiations for scheduling section, and PBS negotiations.

ShyGuy
07-09-2017, 11:14 AM
Yah, I think that's a rule. It is not in the contract. There are lots and lots of things that crew planning and crew scheds does that is not in the contract.
This 551 rule would be a rule that they made up for "safety". Just like the 4 legs per duty period limit (we use to do 5 legs through Southeast every day).

The big picture for you (assuming you are VX) is that the quality of your life as you know it today is about to change. AK = 15% commuters. VX = 80% commuters. Come December, you are going to be bidding mostly non-commutable lines. I predict that we will start parking airbuses all over the system by March due to lack of crews. Those who can will leave. Those you don't leave will start burning sick time so they can actually have more than 48 hours at home.
I know that VX guys think that PBS will cure all that is wrong, but trust me - you do not want to give our management and our crew scheds a PBS system. Besides, the PBS discussion is at least 2 years away, more than likely 4 years from now before we could actually accomplish a formal section 6 negotiations. By then most of the VX guys who need PBS will be gone, the airbus will be gone, and we can negotiate $500 an hour in exchange for PBS (That's my number cuz I know how bad it would make my QOL).

The cutover to a single scheduling system is not that fast. And some of those scheduling rules like 4 cycles of min 48 hrs in base ensure that a commuter will face 4 commutes per month, unless a vacation or something else covers a trip. Also a reason for many days on, 2 off, days on, 2off lines. That's a pretty ridiculous rule to have in a CBA.

GearBoy
07-09-2017, 02:31 PM
We will be negotiating a scheduling MOU. I'm sure that MOU will be a slow process, but we are not waiting for section 6 negotiations for scheduling section, and PBS negotiations.

Good luck with that. They do nothing out of the kindness of their hearts.

There is no right or wrong. There is just, Contractual, FAR legal, and fly then grieve.

lowflying
07-09-2017, 05:11 PM
We will be negotiating a scheduling MOU. I'm sure that MOU will be a slow process, but we are not waiting for section 6 negotiations for scheduling section, and PBS negotiations.

I hope you guys are going to get something big in return for PBS. The company is going to save a ton of money when they implement it and you guys should demand something in exchange.

AltoCumulus
07-10-2017, 04:32 AM
Binding arbitration is part of the Scope Section of the Alaska CBA that was agreed to ling before any talk if a merger with VX. The hard part with nailing down that language is trying to do it without knowing what airline you are merging with. What you want is different depending if you are talking about a Delta/AA/UA, HA, VX, or Sun Country.

We started with no language so you have to come up with something that balance the assurance that you actually get a merger (as opposed to another N/B operator being operated seperately indefinetely) and the ability to negotiate a contract.

Me personally, i've given up on this process. I'm waiting for Contract 2020. If hiring continues at this rate, WE are going to be asking the company for a pension freeze.

Ispeakjive
07-10-2017, 02:07 PM
I'd be surprised if many of old or new school AS pilots blame the union. We should see in a few days exactly what the union and management were proposing. It's my understanding that management made a deal in approx 2010 to continue funding a pension program. Mgmnt is now calling this expense part of our "overall compensation" that we should be grateful for--hence the BM/BT BS video. That's an admin expense that AAG will cover. Those retirements will be protected, but I dont think that the arbitrator will pin that on us the way BM/BT are trying to.

Foodstamps
07-10-2017, 06:50 PM
I'd be surprised if many of old or new school AS pilots blame the union. We should see in a few days exactly what the union and management were proposing. It's my understanding that management made a deal in approx 2010 to continue funding a pension program. Mgmnt is now calling this expense part of our "overall compensation" that we should be grateful for--hence the BM/BT BS video. That's an admin expense that AAG will cover. Those retirements will be protected, but I dont think that the arbitrator will pin that on us the way BM/BT are trying to.

BT/BM Know full well the defined benefit plan has already been funded - upfront - by a deeply concessionary contract. This same contract has allowed Angle Lake to bank increasing profits year on year and achieve the best margin in the industry. These profits were made on the backs of frontline employees time and time again, not just pilots.

These are not stupid men, but they certainly hope a few of us are. ALK and VX pilots alike need to read between the lines, remain unified and continue educating each other on how these guys do business both historically and today. That silly video should have been a call to arms for our group, not a "rational explanation." It was nonsense.

The pension guys need to get paid - and we need to get paid. AAG already has the money in the coffers to pay every pension they agreed to, they took it from the pilot group long ago. If they want to pay us less, then logically, we should ALL be on a defined benefit plan! One that is bankruptcy proof and bulletproof. Of course, AAG would scoff at that and logically - we should scoff at the video nonsense they just threw our way.

Now is the time for the pilot group to remain unified and allow our union negotiators to present the best case (and BOY do we have one) for industry average, even industry LEADING pay. Even with industry leading pay, we will likely fall far behind the big three in work rules, scheduling and QOL until contract 2020, whenever that actually ratifies. Compare W2's with your buddies at Delta, United, SW and American and the math will speak for itself.

My union speaks for me and every day I educate others and learn as much as I can, to be as informed as I can be. Knowledge is power.

N19906
07-10-2017, 07:33 PM
So, just as a reference point:
I recently had a new AS guy in my jumpseat. We talked "Work, Work, Work, Work.." most of the flight. He has a sibling who started at the big D about the same time, and after comparing notes between the two, he had this nugget: he is going to make about $45,000- less this year than they are. The end.

PNWFlyer
07-11-2017, 07:03 AM
So, just as a reference point:
I recently had a new AS guy in my jumpseat. We talked "Work, Work, Work, Work.." most of the flight. He has a sibling who started at the big D about the same time, and after comparing notes between the two, he had this nugget: he is going to make about $45,000- less this year than they are. The end.

This is not news. So, why does everyone talk about leaving but not do it. Time is wasting. I have seen some post that they have been here a few years and have their apps in with no call. Well, it you are a pilot at Alaska and have had you apps in for more than a year and have not been called, then there is something wrong in it and either find a friend to check it or pay one of the app review companies. You will be surprised what they find.

waterboy
07-12-2017, 05:33 AM
Arbitration for a full contract negotiation. Never. We bought that right with the Kasher arbitration. Prior to that we were bound to arbitration for every contract. For merger/aquisition stuff we will likely always end up in arbitration...That is the legal standard...Apples and oranges are what you are comparing

When you say "mergers/acquisition stuff we will likely always end up in arbitration" are you saying Alaska Airlines specifically? Because according to union email, Delta/NW got a JCBA in 4 months. Did UA/CAL and AA/US/HP/TWA see arbitration? I didn't think they did. So it's really just us and our Management team is it not?

Of course, SLI is a whole 'nother story

GearBoy
07-12-2017, 08:39 AM
This is not news. So, why does everyone talk about leaving but not do it. Time is wasting. I have seen some post that they have been here a few years and have their apps in with no call. Well, it you are a pilot at Alaska and have had you apps in for more than a year and have not been called, then there is something wrong in it and either find a friend to check it or pay one of the app review companies. You will be surprised what they find.

I am told that Delta scores its apps. If it were me, I'd do whatever it takes.

At the end of October, with the Arbitration decision, I predict a flood of Alaska FOs more motivated to leave.

If you say that you are waiting until October to see if you've made a mistake, you already know the answer. You just don't want to face reality.

I hope you guys are pleasantly surprised; but, if it were me. I'd be doing everything to beat the mad rush for the door.

PNWFlyer
07-12-2017, 02:41 PM
I am told that Delta scores its apps. If it were me, I'd do whatever it takes.

At the end of October, with the Arbitration decision, I predict a flood of Alaska FOs more motivated to leave.

If you say that you are waiting until October to see if you've made a mistake, you already know the answer. You just don't want to face reality.

I hope you guys are pleasantly surprised; but, if it were me. I'd be doing everything to beat the mad rush for the door.

Yes, Delta manually scores their apps and they have a lot of them. If you have been waiting more than a year for a call, you need to do something to get your app scored. Make friends at Delta. An internal rec gets your app scored. They is also a wait for interviews and then a wait for class. About 4-6 month total now. So, if you think you want to leave and have not received an invite, you are behind.

Ispeakjive
07-13-2017, 02:12 PM
I am told that Delta scores its apps. If it were me, I'd do whatever it takes.

At the end of October, with the Arbitration decision, I predict a flood of Alaska FOs more motivated to leave.

If you say that you are waiting until October to see if you've made a mistake, you already know the answer. You just don't want to face reality.

I hope you guys are pleasantly surprised; but, if it were me. I'd be doing everything to beat the mad rush for the door.

Yup. I'm dusting off my United and Delta apps now. Went to the united Veteran Invitational job expo last November, so I'm pretty optimistic. "If you are in this room" they said, we want to hire you". But I've let the app lapse while waiting for the new contract. If we come in at approx 90% of UAL numbers, I'll probably stay put. Hopefully come Oct/Nov, I'll have good news or great news.

BROKE CFI
07-13-2017, 04:40 PM
Yup. I'm dusting off my United and Delta apps now. Went to the united Veteran Invitational job expo last November, so I'm pretty optimistic. "If you are in this room" they said, we want to hire you". But I've let the app lapse while waiting for the new contract. If we come in at approx 90% of UAL numbers, I'll probably stay put. Hopefully come Oct/Nov, I'll have good news or great news.



Please don't put percentages or numbers on an online forum like that

ForeverJunior
07-13-2017, 06:02 PM
Please don't put percentages or numbers on an online forum like that

Thank you.

I don't want 90% of anyone. I want industry-LEADING pay.

Ray Red
07-14-2017, 07:26 AM
Even an 90% a 2nd year FO would be making about $13,000 less than the "Big 3" and a 10 yr CA would be $26,000 less. That is not a good goal to strive for. Don't forget that your company has one of the highest profit margins in the industry AND DL/UAL negotiations will be starting soon.

Arctichicken
07-14-2017, 09:28 AM
If we come in at approx 90% of UAL numbers, I'll probably stay put. Hopefully come Oct/Nov, I'll have good news or great news.

Ladies and gentleman, this sort of mindset is exactly why we are the lowest paid narrow body pilots in the majors/legacy working for one of the most profitable airlines! 1 January, the big boys will be in the $270s and even if the arbitrator awards us current DAL rates, we will once again trail them very soon.
Most junior FOs whom I fly with claim to have their apps in with the big 3/FedEx/UPS. The smart and able ones have already left. The rest of you who are on the fence are way behind the power curve in my opinion. I don't volunteer career advice in the cockpit unless asked but I know what I would be doing if I were a junior FO.

Yetifan
07-14-2017, 10:33 AM
Yup. I'm dusting off my United and Delta apps now. Went to the united Veteran Invitational job expo last November, so I'm pretty optimistic. "If you are in this room" they said, we want to hire you". But I've let the app lapse while waiting for the new contract. If we come in at approx 90% of UAL numbers, I'll probably stay put. Hopefully come Oct/Nov, I'll have good news or great news.

This is clearly flame bait. If not, congrats making yourself look like a brain dead fool among your peers here on APC!

Ispeakjive
07-14-2017, 11:18 AM
My Bad. I should not have put out a number.

Outdoors
07-14-2017, 12:06 PM
Why do you think fellow pilots want to hear that you'll accept sub-standard rates? Tell that to your union reps if you want to talk! Gross!

Ispeakjive
07-14-2017, 03:14 PM
I totally effed up by posting such a number. Thank you to my colleagues for the kind words of "enlightenment". My apologies.

Even if I have a personal stay or go threshold, that's not what I should be posting. I was wrong.

I hope to stay here because I truly want this to be a place worth staying with. Having said that, I recall AA's bankruptcy while being super cash rich. Horizon pilots won a pay bump for jets, then the jets went away.

When we win the contract that we have earned, will BM/BT gut the company on an unforeseen front that we missed...?

GearBoy
07-15-2017, 08:41 AM
Ladies and gentleman, this sort of mindset is exactly why we are the lowest paid narrow body pilots in the majors/legacy working for one of the most profitable airlines! 1 January, the big boys will be in the $270s and even if the arbitrator awards us current DAL rates, we will once again trail them very soon.
Most junior FOs whom I fly with claim to have their apps in with the big 3/FedEx/UPS. The smart and able ones have already left. The rest of you who are on the fence are way behind the power curve in my opinion. I don't volunteer career advice in the cockpit unless asked but I know what I would be doing if I were a junior FO.

Ladies and gentleman, this sort of mindset is exactly why we are the lowest paid narrow body pilots in the majors/legacy working for one of the most profitable airlines! 1 January, the big boys will be in the $270s and even if the arbitrator awards us current DAL rates, we will once again trail them very soon.
Most junior FOs whom I fly with claim to have their apps in with the big 3/FedEx/UPS. The smart and able ones have already left. The rest of you who are on the fence are way behind the power curve in my opinion. I don't volunteer career advice in the cockpit unless asked but I know what I would be doing if I were a junior FO.

Therein lies the problem, people willing to settle for less for whatever the reason, to live in PDX or SEA, low self-worth, too many failures on their record, can't get hired elsewhere...

You know, you can get paid industry or better and and still have all of the above. You can get industry leading and still live in your preceious PNW. Alaska is no longer the only game in town. Either you go elsewhere or you hope for a cultural change at Alaska. To use a union cliché, you don't get what you deserve. You get what you demand or leverage.

Alaska does a good job weeding out one-percenters and militant types during their interview process. To make it into the pool, you need to go to job fair after job fair at your own expense, you need a PNW connection, and you especially need to have a good answer to Why Alaska and not elsewhere. In the end, they have a pool of applicants willing to settle for less, and once hired, a pilot more likely to vot yes for the next sub-standard TA.

Your only hope is for a new pilot culture. Of the pilots, 30% are relative new-hires who have suffered elsewhere. There's the Kasher pay cut recipients with up to 35% pay cuts as FOs. Next, there's the 3-year furloughees who haven't forgotten. Finally there are the VA pilots with plenty of industry experience prior to VA. Maybe with all of these, you'll finally get away from being push overs that vote yourselves pay cuts, vote away retirements, give away productivity, and settle for less in general, you know, the kids who had their ears flicked and their lunch money stolen in school.

Until that changes, Alaska is and will continue to be the Island of Misfit Toys.

Unfortunately, there are a lot of good pilots stuck on the island, the pilots who actually voted no in the past. These are the pilots that know it's too late for them to go elsewhere. Some are even pilots who feel it was a mistake to end up at Alaska. A lot of them are victims of industry timing. For all the good pilots at Alaska's sake, I hope things change. Otherwise they'll have to continue to live vicariously through the FOs who actually escape Alaska and get hired elsewhere.
.

GearBoy
07-15-2017, 09:09 AM
Ladies and gentleman, this sort of mindset is exactly why we are the lowest paid narrow body pilots in the majors/legacy working for one of the most profitable airlines! 1 January, the big boys will be in the $270s and even if the arbitrator awards us current DAL rates, we will once again trail them very soon.
Most junior FOs whom I fly with claim to have their apps in with the big 3/FedEx/UPS. The smart and able ones have already left. The rest of you who are on the fence are way behind the power curve in my opinion. I don't volunteer career advice in the cockpit unless asked but I know what I would be doing if I were a junior FO.


Therein lies the problem, people willing to settle for less for whatever the reason, to live in PDX or SEA, low self-worth, too many failures on their record, can't get hired elsewhere...

You know, you can get paid industry or better and and still have all of the above. You can get industry leading and still live in your preceious PNW. Alaska is no longer the only game in town. Either you go elsewhere or you hope for a cultural change at Alaska. To use a union cliché, you don't get what you deserve. You get what you demand or leverage.

Alaska does a good job weeding out one-percenters and militant types during their interview process. To make it into the pool, you need to go to job fair after job fair at your own expense, you need a PNW connection, and you especially need to have a good answer to Why Alaska and not elsewhere. In the end, they have a pool of applicants willing to settle for less, and once hired, a pilot more likely to vot yes for the next sub-standard TA.

Your only hope is for a new pilot culture. Of the pilots, 30% are relative new-hires who have suffered elsewhere. There's the Kasher pay cut recipients with up to 35% pay cuts as FOs. Next, there's the 3-year furloughees who haven't forgotten. Finally there are the VA pilots with plenty of industry experience prior to VA. Maybe with all of these, you'll finally get away from being push overs that vote yourselves pay cuts, vote away retirements, give away productivity, and settle for less in general, you know, the kids who had their ears flicked and their lunch money stolen in school.

Until that changes, Alaska is and will continue to be the Island of Misfit Toys.

Unfortunately, there are a lot of good pilots stuck on the island, the pilots who actually voted no in the past. These are the pilots that know it's too late for them to go elsewhere. Some are even pilots who feel it was a mistake to end up at Alaska. A lot of them are victims of industry timing. For all the good pilots at Alaska's sake, I hope things change. Otherwise they'll have to continue to live vicariously through the FOs who actually escape Alaska and get hired elsewhere.
.
The last thing you pilots need is another pilot on the property willing to settle for less, either publicly or otherwise.
.

Bozo the pilot
07-15-2017, 09:14 AM
Therein lies the problem, people willing to settle for less for whatever the reason, to live in PDX or SEA, low self-worth, too many failures on their record, can't get hired elsewhere...

You know, you can get paid industry or better and and still have all of the above. You can get industry leading and still live in your preceious PNW. Alaska is no longer the only game in town. Either you go elsewhere or you hope for a cultural change at Alaska. To use a union cliché, you don't get what you deserve. You get what you demand or leverage.

Alaska does a good job weeding out one-percenters and militant types during their interview process. To make it into the pool, you need to go to job fair after job fair at your own expense, you need a PNW connection, and you especially need to have a good answer to Why Alaska and not elsewhere. In the end, they have a pool of applicants willing to settle for less, and once hired, a pilot more likely to vot yes for the next sub-standard TA.

Your only hope is for a new pilot culture. Of the pilots, 30% are relative new-hires who have suffered elsewhere. There's the Kasher pay cut recipients with up to 35% pay cuts as FOs. Next, there's the 3-year furloughees who haven't forgotten. Finally there are the VA pilots with plenty of industry experience prior to VA. Maybe with all of these, you'll finally get away from being push overs that vote yourselves pay cuts, vote away retirements, give away productivity, and settle for less in general, you know, the kids who had their ears flicked and their lunch money stolen in school.

Until that changes, Alaska is and will continue to be the Island of Misfit Toys.

Unfortunately, there are a lot of good pilots stuck on the island, the pilots who actually voted no in the past. These are the pilots that know it's too late for them to go elsewhere. Some are even pilots who feel it was a mistake to end up at Alaska. A lot of them are victims of industry timing. For all the good pilots at Alaska's sake, I hope things change. Otherwise they'll have to continue to live vicariously through the FOs who actually escape Alaska and get hired elsewhere.
.
The last thing you pilots need is another pilot on the property willing to settle for less, either publicly or otherwise.
.

Sorry for jumpin in, but this post rings true at Jblue as well. Such a similar situation because so many here at B6 are expecting a sub-market contract. Im hoping the best for you guys and B6 alike. Good luck.

GearBoy
07-15-2017, 09:21 AM
The rumors are already starting over there, that you'll be more upset over your Union's formal Arbitration position rather than the Company's

If that's the case, you are screwed. Your only real choice will be to accept the Arbitrated decision, re-call and vote-out you Union leadership and start over in a couple of years with formal section 6 negotiations.

It sucks to be you. But, then again, you did it to yourselves.

Embrace the self-induced suck.

.

Barneyrubble
07-16-2017, 11:19 AM
The rumors are already starting over there, that you'll be more upset over your Union's formal Arbitration position rather than the Company's

If that's the case, you are screwed. Your only real choice will be to accept the Arbitrated decision, re-call and vote-out you Union leadership and start over in a couple of years with formal section 6 negotiations.

It sucks to be you. But, then again, you did it to yourselves.

Embrace the self-induced suck.

.

Really...from an outsider....

Oooo
07-18-2017, 01:59 PM
At least Alaska pilots wont have a chance to roll over on this contract

GearBoy
07-18-2017, 04:35 PM
Really...from an outsider....

Don't like that one? Here's another leak.

No substantiation; but, the latest rumor to come down the pike:

Airgroup final position entering arbitration:

$245/hr (12-yr CA), no scope protection, and no change to your retirement contribution

:eek:

Arctichicken
07-18-2017, 06:41 PM
Don't like that one? Here's another leak.

No substantiation; but, the latest rumor to come down the pike:

Airgroup final position entering arbitration:

$245/hr (12-yr CA), no scope protection, and no change to your retirement contribution

:eek:

We'll see their hand soon enough. I hope they get a sphincter makeover in the name of business and asphyxiate on their total compensation.

GearBoy
07-18-2017, 07:17 PM
We'll see their hand soon enough. I hope they get a sphincter makeover in the name of business and asphyxiate on their total compensation.

This just in:

Rumored Union final arbitration position:
$261/hr top of scale captain pay

Rumored Air Group final arbitration position:
$246/hr 12-yr captain pay

Both to be revealed officially, tomorrow

:eek:

GearBoy
07-18-2017, 07:29 PM
Food for thought....

Horizon won their arbitration, years ago. They won the battle and lost the war. Committ to compete all the way to the bottom, death by Skywest.

So, you Alaska pilots could win Arbitration only to find yourself amendable in 3 years followed by years of protracted negotiations.

Worse yet, you could win the pay in Arbitration but receive no scope. If that happens, you could have a repeat of Horizon, Committ to Compete. History repeats itself, especially if you're dealing with the same perp.

Time will tell. It is what it is. Good luck.

Reset
07-19-2017, 10:34 AM
what are the supposed FO rates? We need scope!

BiloxiJack
07-19-2017, 11:31 AM
Quote from the divide and conquer video, " we have moved significantly in all three of these areas." I don't think continuing to have zero scope protection or any change to retirement constitutes significant movement. Can't wait for the official positions to be released to have a good laugh at their video of them blantanrly lying to us again.

When does this official position communication go out?


what are the supposed FO rates? We need scope!

flyguy94
07-19-2017, 02:09 PM
Quote from the divide and conquer video, " we have moved significantly in all three of these areas." I don't think continuing to have zero scope protection or any change to retirement constitutes significant movement. Can't wait for the official positions to be released to have a good laugh at their video of them blantanrly lying to us again.

When does this official position communication go out?

I would expect today so we have a chance to review it before the conference call tomorrow. Just a guess.

ForeverJunior
07-19-2017, 05:27 PM
Well, the JNC Ledger E-Mail came out about 50 minutes ago. It's all in there.

No surprises from Angle Lake.

ImperialxRat
07-19-2017, 05:37 PM
Well, the JNC Ledger E-Mail came out about 50 minutes ago. It's all in there.

No surprises from Angle Lake.

Hmm, I didn't get an email.

Edit: Disregard, I got it. Took a minute for my email to update

RkyMtnFlyer
07-19-2017, 05:38 PM
Let's take a page out the Spirit Airlines threads and not openly comment on the recently released positions going to Arbitration. Why give the lawyers any ammo/screenshots to use in the hearings.

RJs2majors
07-19-2017, 05:58 PM
Not that I need reaffirmation but I'm glad I was ahead of the game and got out. If I'm going to pay 1.9% of my hard earned money, I should see a return. Aim high, not in the middle.
Good luck to all Alaska pilots, sincerely. I'm outta here.

Jetlife
07-19-2017, 07:08 PM
Let's take a page out the Spirit Airlines threads and not openly comment on the recently released positions going to Arbitration. Why give the lawyers any ammo/screenshots to use in the hearings.

This!!!!!!!!

N19906
07-19-2017, 08:54 PM
I don't want to, (and will not), comment, but could someone just post what the company and union positions are?
FO rates?

Mea25000
07-19-2017, 09:08 PM
Company
No scope
HAL rates
15% 401k

Union
AMR rates
Industry standard scope
15-16 step 401k

N19906
07-19-2017, 09:28 PM
Thanks.
One thing: "HAL" rates? No comprende.

(Oh, is that Hawaiian? They have 737's?!)

Chris99
07-19-2017, 09:33 PM
Hawaiian Airlines

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

Wynncore
07-19-2017, 09:39 PM
To put it nicely, the company's offer is underwhelming to say the least. I won't comment any further.

Packrat
07-20-2017, 07:26 AM
This just in:

Rumored Union final arbitration position:
$261/hr top of scale captain pay

Rumored Air Group final arbitration position:
$246/hr 12-yr captain pay


$2246/$261 = 94%

A familiar Angle Lake favorite number. I guess they figure 94% is a step up from the old 92% number.

RkyMtnFlyer
07-20-2017, 08:17 AM
Let's take a page out the Spirit Airlines threads and not openly comment on the recently released positions going to Arbitration. Why give the lawyers any ammo/screenshots to use in the hearings.

My MEC & JNC (not APC) speak for me!

busbusbaby
07-20-2017, 11:04 AM
let's take a page out the spirit airlines threads and not openly comment on the recently released positions going to arbitration. Why give the lawyers any ammo/screenshots to use in the hearings.

My mec & jnc (not apc) speak for me!

👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍 👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍

Arctichicken
07-20-2017, 05:14 PM
The latest video put out by puzzle palace was very very entertaining. Seriously! I can't even get angry at them anymore. It's like the revival of the Three Stooges. I hope it airs on Comedy Central so that the rest of society can get a good laugh. The kindergarten math was the best part and the actors are a riot. I have a title suggestion for the video: The Interview 2--Revenge of Kim Juhk Asz.;) Grab some popcorn and waste another 17 minutes of your life!

757office
07-20-2017, 05:38 PM
Actual Screen shot from the math portion...Divide and Conquer Part Deux... http://www.thefrugalgirl.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/IMG_4036-590x393.jpg

The latest video put out by puzzle palace was very very entertaining. Seriously! I can't even get angry at them anymore. It's like the revival of the Three Stooges. I hope it airs on Comedy Central so that the rest of society can get a good laugh. The kindergarten math was the best part and the actors are a riot. I have a title suggestion for the video: The Interview 2--Revenge of Kim Jack Asz.;) Grab some popcorn and waste another 17 minutes of your life!

Arctichicken
07-20-2017, 05:47 PM
Actual Screen shot from the math portion...Divide and Conquer Part Deux... http://www.thefrugalgirl.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/IMG_4036-590x393.jpg

Close 75! I thought that actor was either played by a ratt or was it a sheep? Whatever it was, it had a face like a wolf. In any case, he or she must've failed kindergarten math. Whatever happened to attracting the best and the brightest with a stellar total compensation package and strong wages?

CassinAK
07-20-2017, 05:51 PM
Apparently ALaska thinks because 275 people of 3000ish have a full pension we all need to be paid less.

757office
07-20-2017, 05:58 PM
A wolf in a rat sheep costume...a very stupid wolf indeed

Close 75! I thought that actor was either played by a ratt or was it a sheep? Whatever it was, it had a face like a wolf. In any case, he or she must've failed kindergarten math. Whatever happened to attracting the best and the brightest with a stellar total compensation package and strong wages?

Wynncore
07-20-2017, 06:59 PM
The scope "presentation" was pathetic and their insistence and strange obsession over the DB plan that affects a very small minority of the combined pilot group was laughable.

waterboy
07-20-2017, 07:11 PM
Apparently ALaska thinks because 275 people of 3000ish have a full pension we all need to be paid less.

Its only 275? In the video they said just under half...

OrionDriver
07-20-2017, 09:46 PM
Most...profitable...airline...

pete2800
07-20-2017, 09:58 PM
Most...profitable...airline...

This.


If the company wasn't going to move on scope, I'd have liked to see the union stance be a copy/paste of Southwest's language.

CassinAK
07-21-2017, 02:21 AM
Its only 275? In the video they said just under half...



1180 people have some sort of pension. 275 had the full pension, 780 had the rebalance and 125 with the soft freeze. Their math only applied to the 275 with the full pension. The rebalance is not as expensive and the soft freeze is even less.

757office
07-21-2017, 05:05 AM
Conveniently left that part our of the propaganda taping. It never ceases to amaze me how these ignorant pathological liars think that we as a pilot group don't have access to information and will not fact check them relentlessly. **** off Alaska.

1180 people have some sort of pension. 275 had the full pension, 780 had the rebalance and 125 with the soft freeze. Their math only applied to the 275 with the full pension. The rebalance is not as expensive and the soft freeze is even less.

LineGrinder400
07-21-2017, 06:27 AM
The smoke and mirrors are obvious to us. But will the arbitration panel see the same thing...

CDCLLC
07-21-2017, 11:56 AM
Company
No scope
HAL rates
15% 401k

Union
AMR rates
Industry standard scope
15-16 step 401k

I was reviewing the HAL rates and have a question. What happens to a 1st year FO at Alaska (or Virgin) since the HAL 1st year pay rate is very low compared to the current Alaska contract?

757office
07-21-2017, 12:23 PM
In an effort to keep the details of both sides of the table off of the internet I am sending you a PM with the answer to your question. I was

reviewing the HAL rates and have a question. What happens to a 1st year FO at Alaska (or Virgin) since the HAL 1st year pay rate is very low compared to the current Alaska contract?

flysnoopy76
07-22-2017, 11:36 AM
I was reviewing the HAL rates and have a question. What happens to a 1st year FO at Alaska (or Virgin) since the HAL 1st year pay rate is very low compared to the current Alaska contract?

Very interested in this question as well, currently waiting for a Virgin class date and a cut in first year pay down to 36 dollars would make things considerably more difficult. Thanks

ogilthorpe
07-22-2017, 01:45 PM
Very interested in this question as well, currently waiting for a Virgin class date and a cut in first year pay down to 36 dollars would make things considerably more difficult. Thanks

I agree with everyone above that we shouldn't talk too much in public about what's going on, but I think you can safely assume that no one is talking about cutting first year pay to 36 bucks.

CassinAK
07-22-2017, 03:38 PM
I agree with everyone above that we shouldn't talk too much in public about what's going on, but I think you can safely assume that no one is talking about cutting first year pay to 36 bucks.



1st year pay is about the only thing that the Company matched with ALPA. See we are one big happy family!

IDIOTPILOT
07-22-2017, 08:02 PM
Very interested in this question as well, currently waiting for a Virgin class date and a cut in first year pay down to 36 dollars would make things considerably more difficult. Thanks

I'll say other than Hawaiian, first year pay is within the realm of the other legacies. This is both company and ALPA.

CDCLLC
07-23-2017, 05:26 AM
I'll say other than Hawaiian, first year pay is within the realm of the other legacies. This is both company and ALPA.

Glad to hear it!

Klsytakesit
07-23-2017, 09:38 AM
So that we all can recognize each other I am having 4 different bag tags made. 1 of the 275, 1 of the 125, 1 of the 780, and for everyone else post 2009 and Virgin a tag that says "one of the SHAFTED ones"

Wynncore
07-23-2017, 10:33 AM
I'll say other than Hawaiian, first year pay is within the realm of the other legacies. This is both company and ALPA.

This is true, however where it really counts (years 4-12) the company's final position is pitiful.

ImperialxRat
07-23-2017, 11:26 AM
So that we all can recognize each other I am having 4 different bag tags made. 1 of the 275, 1 of the 125, 1 of the 780, and for everyone else post 2009 and Virgin a tag that says "one of the SHAFTED ones"

Hopefully you're joking. That's the kind of dissent that the company wants. A unified pilot group is better... make one bag tag that applies to us all.

757office
07-23-2017, 01:11 PM
It could read "I am not Alaska."Hopefully you're joking. That's the kind of dissent that the company wants. A unified pilot group is better... make one bag tag that applies to us all.

Klsytakesit
07-23-2017, 02:07 PM
Hopefully you're joking. That's the kind of dissent that the company wants. A unified pilot group is better... make one bag tag that applies to us all.
That is the problem with pilots and why you always get played.....It will only be to give the Kingston Trio the middle finger...Jesus open your eyes....

Klsytakesit
07-23-2017, 02:10 PM
I certainly hope that you are part of a tiny minority that missed the intent....otherwise we are screwed

Moose
07-23-2017, 02:44 PM
I certainly hope that you are part of a tiny minority that missed the intent....otherwise we are screwed

The fact is everyone at Alaska has been getting shafted for years. Most of it self-inflicted. Kasher was brutal though with no lube being used. Maybe we could put "One of the shafted 275" "One of the shafted 125" and so on.

Klsytakesit
07-23-2017, 10:01 PM
The fact is everyone at Alaska has been getting shafted for years. Most of it self-inflicted. Kasher was brutal though with no lube being used. Maybe we could put "One of the shafted 275" "One of the shafted 125" and so on.
Ageeed but redundant.....the "shaft story" is welll own by all for pre-2010....I think it rings truer to leave it just attached to post 2010...

Varsity
07-27-2017, 10:26 AM
Any chance of a QX flow being written into the scope language?

N19906
07-27-2017, 10:40 AM
HA-HA-HA-HA-HA!!!!!
Now that's funny! :p

(It'll be a cold day in hell before that ever happens...)

2loud
07-28-2017, 10:38 AM
"Shafted not acquired"

gooddeal
07-29-2017, 10:25 PM
Kasher award is no longer relevant....the only thing to keep eye on is PBS infliction going forward. The arbitrators ruling on the TPA is the chaff now...time to move on to the real elephant in the room.

lowflying
07-30-2017, 04:49 AM
Kasher award is no longer relevant....the only thing to keep eye on is PBS infliction going forward. The arbitrators ruling on the TPA is the chaff now...time to move on to the real elephant in the room.

Is PBS going to happen now? Why doesn't the pilot group wait until 2018 to negotiate it? It's by far the biggest bargaing chip the pilots have.

Mudhen200
07-30-2017, 08:48 AM
PBS is not in the mix right now.
2 yrs from now, when we go into formal section 6 negotiations, I'm sure management will ask for it.
The next round of negotiations could drag on for years. So my best guess is that we will start the PBS discussion about 5 or 6 years from now.
After we have discussed it for several years, the answer will still be no. Never. No way.
Our schedule flexibility is very very bad. Always has been but is continually getting worse. Giving our management and crew scheds PBS would be the worst thing that I can imagine around here. You might as well just agree to fly 1000 hrs a year and never get a day off you need. PBS under our management would destroy any remaining QOL a Alaska pilot has.

IDIOTPILOT
07-30-2017, 09:02 AM
PBS is not in the mix right now.
2 yrs from now, when we go into formal section 6 negotiations, I'm sure management will ask for it.
The next round of negotiations could drag on for years. So my best guess is that we will start the PBS discussion about 5 or 6 years from now.
After we have discussed it for several years, the answer will still be no. Never. No way.
Our schedule flexibility is very very bad. Always has been but is continually getting worse. Giving our management and crew scheds PBS would be the worst thing that I can imagine around here. You might as well just agree to fly 1000 hrs a year and never get a day off you need. PBS under our management would destroy any remaining QOL a Alaska pilot has.

I strongly recommend you check the Scheduling Flexibility MOU of the TPA. It's not talked about now to focus on the JCBA but it's in the mix.

gooddeal
07-30-2017, 06:45 PM
I strongly recommend you check the Scheduling Flexibility MOU of the TPA. It's not talked about now to focus on the JCBA but it's in the mix.

This is absolutely true...and I hope that all AS/VX pilots would too. It is very late to not know that we have a set timeline in place for negotiations.

TPA Negotiations -> Scheduling Flexibility Negotiations -> PBS Negotiations

Also, there needs to be a very clear understanding how the 2018/2019/2020 pairings would continue to change negatively as the company continues to implement Q400/E175/B737/Airbus across the new route system. Whatever scope language that comes from the TPA will be aligned through pairing construction. Those pairings will NOT look like what AS/VX publishes and operates today. PBS is the keys to that kingdom...and it needs to be well stated and understood that just as Kirby stated in the video, staying flexible and competitive is the company priority going forward, not creating a bunch of commutable or high credit pairings.

From the pilots perspective, the TPA process is essentially done: its on to arbitration. Stay unified, stay informed, and let the Negotiators do the talking for us. However, don't let yourself miss the opportunity to look forward at what's next...you can bet management is.

RJs2majors
07-30-2017, 10:59 PM
This is absolutely true...and I hope that all AS/VX pilots would too. It is very late to not know that we have a set timeline in place for negotiations.

TPA Negotiations -> Scheduling Flexibility Negotiations -> PBS Negotiations

Also, there needs to be a very clear understanding how the 2018/2019/2020 pairings would continue to change negatively as the company continues to implement Q400/E175/B737/Airbus across the new route system. Whatever scope language that comes from the TPA will be aligned through pairing construction. Those pairings will NOT look like what AS/VX publishes and operates today. PBS is the keys to that kingdom...and it needs to be well stated and understood that just as Kirby stated in the video, staying flexible and competitive is the company priority going forward, not creating a bunch of commutable or high credit pairings.

From the pilots perspective, the TPA process is essentially done: its on to arbitration. Stay unified, stay informed, and let the Negotiators do the talking for us. However, don't let yourself miss the opportunity to look forward at what's next...you can bet management is.

I'm not new to PBS. Without starting a PBS vs. line bidding war I'll say one thing. I liked PBS to a degree at my previous company since I figured out how to use it to my advantage. Having lived under airgroup's scheduling, I'm certain that PBS will not work in the pilot group's favor. JW and his people have a strong hold and the company wants more efficiency from this pilot group. They routinely violate the contract and manipulate MOUs to their advantage. Besides low pay, some of the worst work rules, and SLI, scheduling inefficiencies and frustrations are major reasons why why I'm leaving. I will have no dog in the fight very soon but consider yourself warned. You'd have to experience life at Alaska to really know what I mean.

suckit
07-31-2017, 08:48 AM
That would be nice but I don't see them ever going above United's rates which are similar but $260/$170 is higher

I'd like to see 5 hours a day vacation, full credit for CQ (5 hours at the training center is 5 hours pay), 8 hours a month in sick leave credit, choices of crew meals like United, signing bonus, Uniform credits, 5% extra added to my 401K each month and United rates
your numbers are wrong. Current 2017 12yr United Rates for the 737 are:
Capt: $264.38 FO: $180.58 - 2018 Capt: $272.32 FO: $186.00