Airline Pilot Forums

Airline Pilot Forums was designed to be a community where working airline pilots can share ideas and information about the aviation field. In the forum you will find information about major and regional airline carriers, career training, interview and job seeker help, finance, and living the airline pilot lifestyle.




Pages : [1] 2

flyordie05
08-18-2016, 12:48 PM
Seems like the JCBA is working hard and working quickly. Any idea what to expect as far as compensation with a new contract?


Chris Knight
08-18-2016, 04:39 PM
Seems like the JCBA is working hard and working quickly. Any idea what to expect as far as compensation with a new contract?

I have heard $260/$170 is a possible target for 12 year CA/FO.

dashtrash300
08-18-2016, 06:13 PM
I have heard $260/$170 is a possible target for 12 year CA/FO.

That would be nice but I don't see them ever going above United's rates which are similar but $260/$170 is higher

I'd like to see 5 hours a day vacation, full credit for CQ (5 hours at the training center is 5 hours pay), 8 hours a month in sick leave credit, choices of crew meals like United, signing bonus, Uniform credits, 5% extra added to my 401K each month and United rates


dashtrash300
08-18-2016, 06:21 PM
Any idea where we are on negotiations? Any sections been signed off on yet?

Arctichicken
08-18-2016, 09:39 PM
I expect nothing less than industry leading pay/contract. It's now or never, literally!

NotTellin
08-19-2016, 04:36 AM
Seems like the JCBA is working hard and working quickly. Any idea what to expect as far as compensation with a new contract?
I expect to not tell the company on a public forum what I'm willing to settle for.

AJ Crowley
08-19-2016, 08:28 AM
Any idea where we are on negotiations? Any sections been signed off on yet?

They haven't started yet. The TPA is currently being negotiated. When the TPA is complete then JCBA negotiations will start. If there are things anyone wants to see in the JCBA make sure you email your reps and the JNC.

Also there is no reason we can't get $260/$170 or more. We will never have a better time to negotiate a contract than right now!

AJ Crowley
08-19-2016, 08:28 AM
I expect nothing less than industry leading pay/contract. It's now or never, literally!

This plus scope!

DashTrash
08-19-2016, 10:36 AM
I'm hoping that you all get scope! This is probably the best and maybe that last chance to get it. QX and SKW are only a phone call away from operating EMB 190/195s and there would be nothing you could do (legally) to stop it. I would give pay to get scope. It doesn't matter how much your hourly rate is, if you don't have a job.

Chris Knight
08-19-2016, 10:43 AM
I expect to not tell the company on a public forum what I'm willing to settle for.

This^^^^^^

flyordie05
08-22-2016, 02:54 PM
So paranoid. You think the executives actually care really concerned with forums? I'm not asking what you're willing to settle for, but for many some this is the first legit contract major airline negotiation with upwardly changing times in the industry. I don't see the harm in discussing expectations.

NotTellin
08-22-2016, 07:16 PM
So paranoid. You think the executives actually care really concerned with forums? I'm not asking what you're willing to settle for, but for many some this is the first legit contract major airline negotiation with upwardly changing times in the industry. I don't see the harm in discussing expectations.
During the NW/Delta merge print outs of their Internal BB were slid across the table from management. If you don't think that the consulting companies don't monitor these boards you are very naive. Do us all a favor and tell your LEC reps in an email or in person what you want. NOT ON A PUBLIC FORUM.

beech1980
08-22-2016, 08:18 PM
Then tell them you want 300 an hour. Then they know what you expect. They are only gonna give you what the mediation board thinks is a fair increase. They have all the control.

ShyGuy
08-24-2016, 01:01 PM
I hope we get a "reckless" contract.

LonesomeSky
08-25-2016, 04:49 PM
We all want a contract that's competitive with the other legacy carriers: pay-rates, soft-time, 401K contributions, vacation pay, training pay, SCOPE, etc. In this environment, where the pilots finally have some leverage, there's no reason we should settle.

As a VX pilot, there's one perk to the way things are done here that I would like to see put into writing in our new contract: pilot input on building pairings. For years, we've had a pilot work with scheduling to build more efficient and humane pairings. Even without a contract, VX management, realized it is essential that our pairings are productive. I'd guess that 75% of VX pilots commute and productive pairings make their lives easier and prevent sick calls. IMO, our schedules at VX are pretty awesome and I'd hate to see that get messed up. I bid about 60% on the captain side (60% from the top, 40% from the bottom) and I typically get 16 days off a month with around 82 hours. Even a bottom line holder gets at least 15 days off a month. In my eight years at VX, I don't think I ever did worse than 15 days off a month. Do you get that at Alaska? If you do, then disregard this post. However, the scuttlebutt on the line is that Alaska schedules are significantly less productive than VX schedules. I'm hoping that's just an ugly rumor.

We can argue all day about the merits of Pref-Bid vs line bidding, but efficient pairings are a no-brainer. High credit trips equal more days at home no matter the bidding system.

And, I don't care how we ensure high credit trips, pilot input to the scheduling department or via punitive duty-rigs, I just don't want to lose my 23 hour four day trips.

F15Cricket
08-25-2016, 06:25 PM
We all want a contract that's competitive with the other legacy carriers: pay-rates, soft-time, 401K contributions, vacation pay, training pay, SCOPE, etc. In this environment, where the pilots finally have some leverage, there's no reason we should settle.

As a VX pilot, there's one perk to the way things are done here that I would like to see put into writing in our new contract: pilot input on building pairings. For years, we've had a pilot work with scheduling to build more efficient and humane pairings. Even without a contract, VX management, realized it is essential that our pairings are productive. I'd guess that 75% of VX pilots commute and productive pairings make their lives easier and prevent sick calls. IMO, our schedules at VX are pretty awesome and I'd hate to see that get messed up. I bid about 60% on the captain side (60% from the top, 40% from the bottom) and I typically get 16 days off a month with around 82 hours. Even a bottom line holder gets at least 15 days off a month. In my eight years at VX, I don't think I ever did worse than 15 days off a month. Do you get that at Alaska? If you do, then disregard this post. However, the scuttlebutt on the line is that Alaska schedules are significantly less productive than VX schedules. I'm hoping that's just an ugly rumor.

We can argue all day about the merits of Pref-Bid vs line bidding, but efficient pairings are a no-brainer. High credit trips equal more days at home no matter the bidding system.

And, I don't care how we ensure high credit trips, pilot input to the scheduling department or via punitive duty-rigs, I just don't want to lose my 23 hour four day trips.

As I have heard that from other dudes (that y'all have more efficient pairings), I have thought about why it seems that way. I don't know if it is true or not--we will need to get ALPA scheduling to investigate the details. But, I have come to believe that it is the nature of VX flying vice AS flying that is the primary cause.

By that, I mean, it seems y'all do a lot of transcons, whereas that is only a percentage of our flying (I don't know how much). To further put it in perspective, how many 45 minute legs does VX fly? We have many, ranging from SEA-GEG, ANC-FAI, many in the Arctic, etc. Or how about a day flying one of our southeast flights (southeast Alaska), which is 4 or 5 legs, a 10-11 hour day, 5 hours of credit (contract minimum) but only 4:30 or so block? That is some of the most fun and rewarding flying we do, but it is not as productive as sitting on your backside for 6:30 to go ANC-ORD.

I think the reality is that once the companies, fleets, markets, and schedules are merged, the average time per day will be closer to what we have now than what y'all have.

However, having said all that, putting a pilot in scheduling is an absolute must ask!

ASpilot0936
08-25-2016, 09:33 PM
SCOPE SCOPE SCOPE SCOPE & SCOPE. NO CONTRACT WITHOUT IT!!!! Any consulting company reading this you can send that direct to the Brad & Ben show......

And don't let ALPA give any bu!!**** about having to "trade" for anything, or "You better take this or else" $hit... If ALPA ****s us on this I want them off property.

Remember, this company just made 25% profit margin!! Time to pay us our worth Brad & Ben.....

plt32173
08-26-2016, 08:30 AM
SCOPE SCOPE SCOPE SCOPE & SCOPE. NO CONTRACT WITHOUT IT!!!! Any consulting company reading this you can send that direct to the Brad & Ben show......

And don't let ALPA give any bu!!**** about having to "trade" for anything, or "You better take this or else" $hit... If ALPA ****s us on this I want them off property.

Remember, this company just made 25% profit margin!! Time to pay us our worth Brad & Ben.....

LOLOL... what he said!! Look forward to joining forces with you!

ShyGuy
08-26-2016, 12:57 PM
Look at what Allegiant just got. And that's Allegiant. I really wonder if mgt wants the JCBA done ASAP before the two big ones: SWA and DAL. Both will only help drive the going rate of a 737/320 way up. One would think on their end, they would prefer to get it done before SW/DL drive up the industry average benchmark.

Arctichicken
08-26-2016, 02:34 PM
Agree - industry leading contract (pay, retirement, scope, and scheduling as 4 corner stones). In regards to pay, we must get a "me too" clause when the big 3 and SWA pay goes up. Absolutely no exceptions! Oh btw, I'm willing to give up nothing. Double digit record profits every quarter for how many years now?!

stix'nstrings
08-27-2016, 11:52 AM
I expect to not tell the company on a public forum what I'm willing to settle for.



Wrong.

There is zero harm to make posts on a public forum that pilots of Alaska expect an industry leading contract. This includes hourly rates of pay, retirement, profit sharing, the value of a vacation and training day AND scope. Let's get real. Management undoubtably already knows this. And yes, they can afford it. So go ahead. Post positions that shoot for the moon!

OTOH, what we shouldn't do is post ridiculous company sympathizing comments that reflect concessionary positions or items of compromise. I hope this younger generation of reps can better articulate and argue our interests than the ones we have sent in the past.

LineGrinder400
08-27-2016, 03:22 PM
And this is still relevant. Do not forget...

Alaska Airlines Receives Arbitrator's Decision

4/30/2005 7:01 p.m.

SEATTLE — An arbitrator notified Alaska Airlines today of his decisions on the major terms of a new contract between the airline and its Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA) bargaining unit.
The decisions of the arbitrator, Richard Kasher, cover all 1,465 pilots employed by Alaska Airlines. The new contract becomes effective May 1.

The existing contract between the airline and the union called for an arbitrator, mutually agreed upon, to resolve differences if the parties were unable to reach agreement. ALPA and Alaska Airlines began contract talks in October 2003. The arbitrator was called in to help craft a settlement when an agreement could not be reached by a December 15, 2004, deadline.

While wage provisions go into effect tomorrow, full implementation of all provisions is expected to occur over several weeks. The contract becomes amendable in two years.
The terms of the agreement, set by the arbitrator, were based on information presented by both the airline and ALPA. They include an approximate 26 percent reduction in pilot wages, various work rule changes resulting in productivity improvements and higher employee health care contributions. No changes were made to the pilots' pension or profit sharing plans.

"We are grateful to the arbitrator for helping us reach a resolution," said Dennis Hamel, Alaska's vice president of employee services. "This allows us to move forward with a competitive wage and benefit package for our pilots and helps us achieve a better cost alignment with other major carriers."


When the times were "bad" there was a sacrifice big time. The times are very good now so nothing less than industry leading standards across the board will be expected.

Arctichicken
08-27-2016, 04:08 PM
"We are grateful to the arbitrator for helping us reach a resolution," said Dennis Hamel, Alaska's vice president of employee services. "This allows us to move forward with a competitive wage and benefit package for our pilots and helps us achieve a better cost alignment with other major carriers."

Ah yes, one of my darkest days of our lives... homes lost, divorces, and a plethora of other $hit storms came our way in just one moment. I get sick to my stomach even now when I hear the word Kasher.
"Cost alignment with other major carriers", aka "market based wages and work rules" you say?! When was the last time management mentioned these exact words? That's right-only when it benefits them. Time to pay up, bro!

Klsytakesit
08-28-2016, 08:51 PM
Truth is....Times were not tough for them then....They used the fanciest accounting in the business to "lose"money into more corners of the airline than anyone could track.....Times were not tough for them when they furloughed....the freaks that heavily populate our seniority list for whom the color of the paint job matters more than the quality of the contract are selling the " sixth place" mantra....."we cant expect to be at the top"...."what do you want to give up for more money"......on and on ad nauseum....besides knowing how to split a penny lengthwise, alaska airlines has mastered the art of hiring yes voters.....70% of the seniority list....looking forward to an 6th to 8th place JCBA and the years of sniveling about a domestic narrowbody seniority list.....Brad and company for the easy win

NotTellin
08-28-2016, 09:27 PM
Truth is....Times were not tough for them then....They used the fanciest accounting in the business to "lose"money into more corners of the airline than anyone could track.....Times were not tough for them when they furloughed....the freaks that heavily populate our seniority list for whom the color of the paint job matters more than the quality of the contract are selling the " sixth place" mantra....."we cant expect to be at the top"...."what do you want to give up for more money"......on and on ad nauseum....besides knowing how to split a penny lengthwise, alaska airlines has mastered the art of hiring yes voters.....70% of the seniority list....looking forward to an 6th to 8th place JCBA and the years of sniveling about a domestic narrowbody seniority list.....Brad and company for the easy win

At least on October 1, they will be adding 700+ hardened veterans of the airline industry. There are very few yes men in our group. 8 airlines will do that to you.

Klsytakesit
08-28-2016, 09:39 PM
please remember to vote NO on the JCBA

ShyGuy
08-28-2016, 10:17 PM
At least on October 1, they will be adding 700+ hardened veterans of the airline industry. There are very few yes men in our group. 8 airlines will do that to you.

Lets be honest about ourselves. 25% of our group voted no to ALPA. We still have people who haven't joined.

No shortage of "yes men" here, either.



please remember to vote NO on the JCBA

?

Without having even seen it?

FLowpayFO
08-29-2016, 02:40 PM
Grabbed these numbers from the Southwest forum. Please correct if wrong.

Southwest new TA:
12 year pay by September 2020
CA: $282.30/hr
FO: $197.60/hr

Allegiant, Delta, and UPS getting new contracts is putting us in a very strong position.

EskimoJoe
08-30-2016, 06:44 AM
please remember to vote NO on the JCBA
I want to hear exactly what both merger committees are proposing for SLI before I'd ever consider voting for a JCBA. A JCBA is way down the priority list.

plt32173
08-30-2016, 10:08 AM
I want to hear exactly what both merger committees are proposing for SLI before I'd ever consider voting for a JCBA. A JCBA is way down the priority list.
Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think Alpa allows that. It's JCBA before any SLI.

Bugaboo
08-30-2016, 11:24 AM
Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think Alpa allows that. It's JCBA before any SLI.

You are correct.
TPA-JCBA-SLI

Read your MEC emails guys😄

juventus
08-30-2016, 01:30 PM
That is correct .

Foodstamps
09-05-2016, 12:38 PM
Bare minimum the contract must have scope and industry leading pay rates or I'm a no vote. MANY of my union brothers are with me on this.

Klsytakesit
09-09-2016, 08:23 PM
I want to hear exactly what both merger committees are proposing for SLI before I'd ever consider voting for a JCBA. A JCBA is way down the priority list.

Joe.....Let me fix it for you.....A JCBA with 300/200 an hour pay rates, scope, signifigant scheduling/work rule/reserve improvements etc is at the top of the top of the list....sli squabbling/ domicile fencing etc is at the bottom of the list.....

Chris Knight
09-10-2016, 09:35 AM
I want to hear exactly what both merger committees are proposing for SLI before I'd ever consider voting for a JCBA. A JCBA is way down the priority list.

I don't know, I'd hate to take the route of US Airways/America West. There is a reason the process has been changed since then to complete the JCBA prior to the SLI. I have strong emotions about the SLI as well, but I don't want that to interfere with our ability to lock arms and hammer out an industry leading contract.

ogilthorpe
09-11-2016, 11:10 AM
...I don't want that to interfere with our ability to lock arms and hammer out an industry leading contract.

^^^^^^^^ this

EskimoJoe
09-11-2016, 03:29 PM
Joe.....Let me fix it for you.....A JCBA with 300/200 an hour pay rates, scope, signifigant scheduling/work rule/reserve improvements etc is at the top of the top of the list....sli squabbling/ domicile fencing etc is at the bottom of the list.....
Fix it for me? Those are YOUR priorities. Not mine. Not at all. BTW, You're in for major disappointment. Are you AK or VX? If AK you must still be on probation. No way in Hell AK pays anything close to that. Also, Management will REFUSE to discuss any work rules and Scope is a non starter. If we don't get a JCBA, they don't get their merger. BFD as far as I'm concerned...That's their 4.1 Billion dollar problem. Not mine. I don't care.

Mea25000
09-11-2016, 06:13 PM
300/200...?? Well that made me laugh. Why not 500/400 equally realistic. This thing is going to take a while but the number will be industry numbers not industry + 20%

pete2800
09-11-2016, 06:31 PM
If we don't get a JCBA, they don't get their merger.
This ^ is exactly why...
Management will REFUSE to discuss any work rules and Scope is a non starter.
...^ this is only true if pilots at Alaska decide that work rules and scope are unimportant.


Your statement contradicts itself.

Speed Pilot
09-11-2016, 08:35 PM
Fix it for me? Those are YOUR priorities. Not mine. Not at all. BTW, You're in for major disappointment. Are you AK or VX? If AK you must still be on probation. No way in Hell AK pays anything close to that. Also, Management will REFUSE to discuss any work rules and Scope is a non starter. If we don't get a JCBA, they don't get their merger. BFD as far as I'm concerned...That's their 4.1 Billion dollar problem. Not mine. I don't care.



Guys that think like this is why Alaska pilots will continue to trail industry standard. Ladies and gentlemen, I present to you THE PROBLEM.

Oooo
09-11-2016, 09:22 PM
F*ck them then. EVERYTHING is negotiable and no scope will lead to less mainline jobs the moment the economy tanks. You want horizon and skw guys doing all of Alaska's flying?! Why even bother negotiating a contract. Just give the mormon air force all of the airbuses.

EskimoJoe
09-12-2016, 05:36 AM
This ^ is exactly why...

...^ this is only true if pilots at Alaska decide that work rules and scope are unimportant.


Your statement contradicts itself.
There is nothing contradictory is my statement. They don't have to merge these operations and Tilden has already hinted at doing that. If you think they are going to roll over and give you Delta's contract plus just to get to a JCBA you are smoking crack. You guys obviously have no idea who you're dealing with. No W2 wage earners are going to dictate a damn thing to these people. Tilden will happily Whip Saw before that happens. So to say that it's up to the Alaska pilots to decide if work rules and scope are unimportant is ridiculous. What are you going to do about it? Strike? Sure. That's going to happen...

EskimoJoe
09-12-2016, 05:44 AM
Guys that think like this is why Alaska pilots will continue to trail industry standard. Ladies and gentlemen, I present to you THE PROBLEM.
Ok Jr. You check back with me after JCBA ratification...if that ever even happens, and you tell me about all the wonderful things in your new contract. I have never voted yes on any contract here...that would be the last 4 BTW. The Pilots aren't the problem, it's a style of Management that is capable of the Kasher award and their subsequent behavior. Couple this with the RLA and it becomes pretty clear why we don't have Delta's contract.

pete2800
09-12-2016, 09:19 AM
There is nothing contradictory is my statement. They don't have to merge these operations and Tilden has already hinted at doing that. If you think they are going to roll over and give you Delta's contract plus just to get to a JCBA you are smoking crack. You guys obviously have no idea who you're dealing with. No W2 wage earners are going to dictate a damn thing to these people. Tilden will happily Whip Saw before that happens. So to say that it's up to the Alaska pilots to decide if work rules and scope are unimportant is ridiculous. What are you going to do about it? Strike? Sure. That's going to happen...

Alright. What course of action do you suggest?

Chris Knight
09-12-2016, 10:45 AM
Alright. What course of action do you suggest?

I think it is just to keep venting on APC. Unless I'm wrong, tell me.

CassinAK
09-12-2016, 01:18 PM
Ok Jr. You check back with me after JCBA ratification...if that ever even happens, and you tell me about all the wonderful things in your new contract. I have never voted yes on any contract here...that would be the last 4 BTW. The Pilots aren't the problem, it's a style of Management that is capable of the Kasher award and their subsequent behavior. Couple this with the RLA and it becomes pretty clear why we don't have Delta's contract.



When more than half the pilots vote in a contract that lacks solid Scope language then it is the Pilots problem. The Pilots are telling Brad that this contract is good enough, carry on outsourcing at will.

Speed Pilot
09-12-2016, 01:35 PM
When more than half the pilots vote in a contract that lacks solid Scope language then it is the Pilots problem. The Pilots are telling Brad that this contract is good enough, carry on outsourcing at will.



Nailed it!

EskimoJoe
09-12-2016, 03:48 PM
Alright. What course of action do you suggest?
I suggest you vote Yes if you're happy and No if you're not. I've never voted Yes on any Contract at Alaska and that has made virtually no difference.

Mea25000
09-12-2016, 04:04 PM
This is not hard guys... Company wants a 51% contract. Anything else and they paid to much and they are smart. 25% over here would vote for our current contract plus 1% cola for 4 years. Even the union knows half of the wishes of the pilots are lepricons and unicorns, but they smile and say "yeah yeah". Behind closed doors they know how this will go down. Company wants 8% , 1.5, 3, 1.5, 1.5. Union wants 18, 3, 3... There will be no scope, retirement adjustment, there will only be a pay adjustment and increase in medical costs for us. I can't say for sure where the numbers will settle out at but somewhere at or between these two. Depends on the economy and how hard the union pushes. Write it down... Check back in 24 mo's. It will pass by 60%.... Oh I know no one on here will vote for that.. They will quit, strike, burn the place down... When this happens one MEC guy will quit but you will have a new contract... I guarantee it!

plt32173
09-12-2016, 05:43 PM
This is not hard guys... Company wants a 51% contract. Anything else and they paid to much and they are smart. 25% over here would vote for our current contract plus 1% cola for 4 years. Even the union knows half of the wishes of the pilots are lepricons and unicorns, but they smile and say "yeah yeah". Behind closed doors they know how this will go down. Company wants 8% , 1.5, 3, 1.5, 1.5. Union wants 18, 3, 3... There will be no scope, retirement adjustment, there will only be a pay adjustment and increase in medical costs for us. I can't say for sure where the numbers will settle out at but somewhere at or between these two. Depends on the economy and how hard the union pushes. Write it down... Check back in 24 mo's. It will pass by 60%.... Oh I know no one on here will vote for that.. They will quit, strike, burn the place down... When this happens one MEC guy will quit but you will have a new contract... I guarantee it!

Big difference is they need 51% AS AND 51% VX. So if 60% AS votes yes but 60% VX votes No it won't pass

This the time to make a stand. There is no way any Vxer is voting for something without solid scope. And based on the conversations I've had with AS pilots neither are they.

Arctichicken
09-12-2016, 05:59 PM
Unfortunately, the chicken little limp dicks still outnumber your average common sense pilot here Alaska. There's always hope but this pilot group is known to embrace ground hog day. I've met some of the nicest pilots here but we all know where nice guys finish. 51% is all it takes.........

Mea25000
09-12-2016, 06:45 PM
I hope you don't take this the wrong way but every VX pilot went to the lowest paying job in the industry... They went there willingly, happily accepting a career and a job that at its low was 40% below a bankrupt priced industry. They pushed the industry down... I know each individual had his or her own reason. I know some of them came from a bankrupt airline back ground, however many came from regionals. I know 37 of then interviewed and were turned down by AS. I am sure you have great people over there, but if it passes at AS by 60% it will pass VX by 80%.... I know, I know... I have no clue you guys are untied and rocks, pillars of the industry accepting only a industry leading contract like you did in the past... But check back in 2 years... I will be 100% right and AS management knows this

OCCP
09-12-2016, 09:07 PM
Wow you're probably a joy to fly with

plt32173
09-12-2016, 09:19 PM
I hope you don't take this the wrong way but every VX pilot went to the lowest paying job in the industry... They went there willingly, happily accepting a career and a job that at its low was 40% below a bankrupt priced industry. They pushed the industry down... I know each individual had his or her own reason. I know some of them came from a bankrupt airline back ground, however many came from regionals. I know 37 of then interviewed and were turned down by AS. I am sure you have great people over there, but if it passes at AS by 60% it will pass VX by 80%.... I know, I know... I have no clue you guys are untied and rocks, pillars of the industry accepting only a industry leading contract like you did in the past... But check back in 2 years... I will be 100% right and AS management knows this
Wow dude. You have a lot on your chest. Lol. Feel better now?

Mea25000
09-12-2016, 09:55 PM
Just honest...to many people hide from and try to excuse the truth. I am actually, I think a really nice guy, but that is my opinion in all fairness. I am pretty sure you would have a really hard time finding an FO that doesn't really enjoy flying with me.. And yes that's honest to. Check back in two years... See if I am right, sorry if honesty offends. Maybe next time I could lie just to make you all feel better.

jayme
09-12-2016, 10:34 PM
Just honest...to many people hide from and try to excuse the truth. I am actually, I think a really nice guy, but that is my opinion in all fairness. I am pretty sure you would have a really hard time finding an FO that doesn't really enjoy flying with me.. And yes that's honest to. Check back in two years... See if I am right, sorry if honesty offends. Maybe next time I could lie just to make you all feel better.

You're not being honest. You're being arrogant.

Folks came to Virgin because it was quick progression. Some made out like bandits, others got bit when orders got cancelled.

We are no better and no worse than any other pilot group.

Did Southwest pilots suddenly grow balls between 1999 (when their pay was substandard) and now with their great TA? Or was it a confluence of good bargaining power, a strong economy and pilot unity? I suspect it was the latter.

Get off the high horse and join your brothers down here.

Knucklehead
09-13-2016, 06:03 AM
Mea25000,

to, too, and two. Figure it out...

AJ Crowley
09-13-2016, 07:34 AM
I hope you don't take this the wrong way but every VX pilot went to the lowest paying job in the industry... They went there willingly, happily accepting a career and a job that at its low was 40% below a bankrupt priced industry. They pushed the industry down... I know each individual had his or her own reason. I know some of them came from a bankrupt airline back ground, however many came from regionals. I know 37 of then interviewed and were turned down by AS. I am sure you have great people over there, but if it passes at AS by 60% it will pass VX by 80%.... I know, I know... I have no clue you guys are untied and rocks, pillars of the industry accepting only a industry leading contract like you did in the past... But check back in 2 years... I will be 100% right and AS management knows this

This guy. Haha

Arctichicken
09-13-2016, 09:31 AM
I don't know about some of ya'll but I see where Mea25000 is coming from. At least he doesn't sugar coat things. 99% of the FOs who I flew with share the exact same sentiments as Mea25000 but we have a different breed of folks in LAX. I can't be sure how these same folks will vote and only time will tell.

ShyGuy
09-13-2016, 11:50 AM
Big difference is they need 51% AS AND 51% VX. So if 60% AS votes yes but 60% VX votes No it won't pass

This the time to make a stand. There is no way any Vxer is voting for something without solid scope. And based on the conversations I've had with AS pilots neither are they.

Are you sure?
Last Q&A I read said for the JCBA, both the AS and VX MECs have to approve. If one doesn't, then it's a no go. But for the general population there would be no distinction, it's all ~2500 pilots who vote yes or no and has to pass of that by 50% + 1.

Mea25000
09-13-2016, 01:00 PM
Yup, you got me... I used too improperly 2x. I wrote fast and Apple is always fixing things for me. I am sure that means I am a moron... Name call, poke fun, and attack anyone that says something you don't agree with. I told you what your new contract will be. ($234-$255, equipment locks, no scope, no unicorns) Yes, the past is always a good barometer of the future. Every FO I have flown with wants nothing to do with VX and this merger... But alas we are stuck. Check back in two years and tell me I am an idiot.
Shy is right it is 51% of the ~2500

OCCP
09-13-2016, 03:30 PM
Every FO I have flown with wants nothing to do with VX and this merger... But alas we are stuck.



I feel the same sometimes. It's probably why most Alaska folks I've come across have been unfriendly or flat out refuse to acknowledge a lowlife VX person like myself.

You guys aren't exactly the cream of the crop, otherwise your mgmt wouldn't have bought us.

Arctichicken
09-13-2016, 04:12 PM
[QUOTE=OCCP;2201886It's probably why most Alaska folks I've come across have been unfriendly or flat out refuse to acknowledge a lowlife VX person like myself.

You guys aren't exactly the cream of the crop, otherwise your mgmt wouldn't have bought us.[/QUOTE]

Don't take it personally. I'm willing to bet that some of those folks were SEA pilots. Either they forgot to take their Prozac that day or it was that time of the year (9 of 12 months).:D I get the same treatment from my own brothas from the gloom dome.
Cream of the crop? It's all good, bro. We can all be the cream of the crop in our own minds. Enjoy the ride!

plt32173
09-13-2016, 04:50 PM
Are you sure?
Last Q&A I read said for the JCBA, both the AS and VX MECs have to approve. If one doesn't, then it's a no go. But for the general population there would be no distinction, it's all ~2500 pilots who vote yes or no and has to pass of that by 50% + 1.
Ok. I think you are right. I may have misread it. Each MEC ratifies separately. Thanks for clarification.

Mea25000
09-13-2016, 05:06 PM
No, management bought you to save their jobs... If not we would have soon ended up part of Delta. I don't believe guys are being rude to VX pilots. I have had 3 in the last 6 mo's on the jump... All seemed like good guys. Met all three of your contract guys.. Two of them I thought were great... The other so so. Have talked to a handful of guys in LAX and SFO, I would say everyone seemed friendly and polite. I think they would say the same of me and the FO's I was flying with. I think if you look at this merger objectively you would realize VX pilots have nothing to lose and everything to gain. AS pilots have nothing to gain and everything to lose. That is not a good combination for our careers... I have more then 28 years left and it is feeling more like a prison sentence at this point. I honestly think the merger is going to be a disaster, I sincerely hope I am wrong.
This thing is going to take a while, and I think it will soon get very ugly. Just look at the TPA.. It should have taken a couple of weeks to hammer out. No matter how bad it gets I will never be rude to anyone at VX... Might be jealous, but not rude.

Reggie Dunlop
09-13-2016, 05:48 PM
No, management bought you to save their jobs... If not we would have soon ended up part of Delta. I don't believe guys are being rude to VX pilots. I have had 3 in the last 6 mo's on the jump... All seemed like good guys. Met all three of your contract guys.. Two of them I thought were great... The other so so. Have talked to a handful of guys in LAX and SFO, I would say everyone seemed friendly and polite. I think they would say the same of me and the FO's I was flying with. I think if you look at this merger objectively you would realize VX pilots have nothing to lose and everything to gain. AS pilots have nothing to gain and everything to lose. That is not a good combination for our careers... I have more then 28 years left and it is feeling more like a prison sentence at this point. I honestly think the merger is going to be a disaster, I sincerely hope I am wrong.
This thing is going to take a while, and I think it will soon get very ugly. Just look at the TPA.. It should have taken a couple of weeks to hammer out. No matter how bad it gets I will never be rude to anyone at VX... Might be jealous, but not rude.

Not rude, just another big mouth, condescending, arrogant, know it all-post it all millennial. You seem like a peach.

kingair11
09-13-2016, 06:31 PM
Someone must have peed in poor Reggie Dunlops cheerios this morning. Reggie probably has what is called ( RPD ) " Resting BITC* Face "

ShyGuy
09-13-2016, 07:47 PM
No, management bought you to save their jobs... If not we would have soon ended up part of Delta. I don't believe guys are being rude to VX pilots. I have had 3 in the last 6 mo's on the jump... All seemed like good guys. Met all three of your contract guys.. Two of them I thought were great... The other so so. Have talked to a handful of guys in LAX and SFO, I would say everyone seemed friendly and polite. I think they would say the same of me and the FO's I was flying with. I think if you look at this merger objectively you would realize VX pilots have nothing to lose and everything to gain. AS pilots have nothing to gain and everything to lose. That is not a good combination for our careers... I have more then 28 years left and it is feeling more like a prison sentence at this point. I honestly think the merger is going to be a disaster, I sincerely hope I am wrong.
This thing is going to take a while, and I think it will soon get very ugly. Just look at the TPA.. It should have taken a couple of weeks to hammer out. No matter how bad it gets I will never be rude to anyone at VX... Might be jealous, but not rude.

Why would you be jealous of VX? By your comment of 28 years left, sounds like you are a 36-37 year old CA at Alaska. Can't be that bad? We have some CAs in their 30s but the majority are in the 40s and 50s.

Pogey Bait
09-14-2016, 04:35 AM
Thanks guys for the fish yesterday in LAX!

LineGrinder400
09-14-2016, 07:01 AM
Be prepared for the company to announce a potential 100 airplane expansion with that lovely new 737 Max 10.... (or whatever Boeing decides to do yet again with revamping the 737.. ugh)

BUT ONLY IF.....

Us greedy pilots take current Virgin rates +10% then COLA adjustments for rest of contract.

Think I'm crazy? Perhaps.. but the point is just be prepared for anything from the company at this point.

We cannot lose focus on an INDUSTRY LEADING CONTRACT being the goal. Our value towards these incredible record profits must be respected. Nothing personal, just the cost of doing business in the climate we are currently in.

doug_or
09-14-2016, 08:11 AM
Not rude, just another big mouth, condescending, arrogant, know it all-post it all millennial. You seem like a peach.

If he has 28 years left, he is by definition not a millennial.

FLowpayFO
09-14-2016, 01:15 PM
Look here guys, this merger is gonna be tremendous, absolutely fabulous of a merger, trust me, I know mergers, and this merger is gonna be HUGE. No losers here, just winners, we're gonna make flying great again.

ShyGuy
09-14-2016, 02:19 PM
Look here guys, this merger is gonna be tremendous, absolutely fabulous of a merger, trust me, I know mergers, and this merger is gonna be HUGE. No losers here, just winners, we're gonna make flying great again.

LOL now that's funny :D

NotTellin
09-14-2016, 02:24 PM
Be prepared for the company to announce a potential 100 airplane expansion with that lovely new 737 Max 10.... (or whatever Boeing decides to do yet again with revamping the 737.. ugh)

BUT ONLY IF.....

Us greedy pilots take current Virgin rates +10% then COLA adjustments for rest of contract.

Think I'm crazy? Perhaps.. but the point is just be prepared for anything from the company at this point.

We cannot lose focus on an INDUSTRY LEADING CONTRACT being the goal. Our value towards these incredible record profits must be respected. Nothing personal, just the cost of doing business in the climate we are currently in.

This VX pilot will tell them to pound sand.

full of luv
09-16-2016, 04:48 AM
Look here guys, this merger is gonna be tremendous, absolutely fabulous of a merger, trust me, I know mergers, and this merger is gonna be HUGE. No losers here, just winners, we're gonna make flying great again.

It's gonna be spectacular.... in fact you all going to get TIRED of winning so much....

ShyGuy
09-19-2016, 09:55 AM
It's gonna be spectacular.... in fact you all going to get TIRED of winning so much....

And half the country lines up to vote yes for that...

airb320
09-19-2016, 02:59 PM
Every FO I have flown with wants nothing to do with VX and this merger...

I feel the same about AS... nothing I can do either...:(

full of luv
09-19-2016, 03:30 PM
And half the country lines up to vote yes for that...

ONLY cause the other side comes across as so self righteous, superior, entitled, condescending and completely untrustworthy sell-outs....

People should rewatch Idiocracy (the movie) and see how close our political elections have come to the predicted future.

We've appeared to have jumped ahead a couple of decades.

ShyGuy
09-19-2016, 04:40 PM
ONLY cause the other side comes across as so self righteous, superior, entitled, condescending and completely untrustworthy sell-outs....

People should rewatch Idiocracy (the movie) and see how close our political elections have come to the predicted future.

We've appeared to have jumped ahead a couple of decades.

This election will be full of people who even though don't agree with policies or like the plans offered by the candidates, will simply vote yes because they don't want the other person to win. That itself is pretty pathetic. Why not break away from the two party mold and go for an independent/libertarian/side candidate. It doesn't have to be HC or DT. But I digress :)

Bugaboo
09-20-2016, 07:11 AM
This election will be full of people who even though don't agree with policies or like the plans offered by the candidates, will simply vote yes because they don't want the other person to win. That itself is pretty pathetic. Why not break away from the two party mold and go for an independent/libertarian/side candidate. It doesn't have to be HC or DT. But I digress :)

Stop the political BS and get back on topic.

Pedantillious
09-21-2016, 11:23 AM
Not rude, just another big mouth, condescending, arrogant, know it all-post it all millennial. You seem like a peach.

Reggie come on. Weren't you convinced? He went back on another thread and posted three different predictions he had made in the past that turned out to be accurate to prove to you that you're really dealing with a wise sage instead of web-board prognosticator? Surely those three examples he laid out for you to see would be proof positive that we aren't dealing with a merely lucky soul that makes some predictions and gets a subset of them right. But rather you are dealing with someone whom is incapable of condescension as he is simply just better. 😂

OCCP
09-30-2016, 05:10 PM
The JNC email from today doesn't seem very promising. Sounds like AS mgmt is stalling.

Bugaboo
09-30-2016, 07:36 PM
[QUOTE=OCCP;2214307]The JNC email from today doesn't seem very promising. Sounds like AS mgmt is stalling.[/QUOTE

BOTH AK and VA mgt teams are involved in the TPA. Hard to say if one or the other is stalling unless you know something specific.

NotTellin
09-30-2016, 08:14 PM
BOTH AK and VA mgt teams are involved in the TPA. Hard to say if one or the other is stalling unless you know something specific.

Since the section they are hung up on is negotiating a JCBA, it's Alaska that is the problem. Virgin management will be long gone by then.

FLowpayFO
09-30-2016, 08:48 PM
I'm hearing they're not playing nice in regards to scope.

mike734
09-30-2016, 09:35 PM
I'm hearing they're not playing nice in regards to scope.

I'm sure you didn't hear that from anyone who knows.

ShyGuy
09-30-2016, 10:47 PM
They're negotiating the TPA, not the JCBA. Though it seems the hold up is on the section that deals with the process and timeline of a JCBA.

ImperialxRat
10-01-2016, 06:21 AM
A quick search didn't come up with anything... what is a TPA?

ShyGuy
10-01-2016, 06:28 AM
Transition and Process Agreement. What basically spells out the framework and conditions we'd operate at during the merger process itself working towards SOC.

EskimoJoe
10-01-2016, 07:40 AM
Not surprised in the slightest. Just the tip of the BS iceberg with Alaska management. I wouldn't be shocked if they want concessions to help pay for their acquisition. Stay tuned....or don't. It will just drive you nuts.

OCCP
10-01-2016, 08:16 AM
It would be sad but also funny in an odd way if they want concessions while other companies are getting huge raises and the industry as a whole is trending upwards.

EskimoJoe
10-01-2016, 09:07 AM
It would be sad but also funny in an odd way if they want concessions while other companies are getting huge raises and the industry as a whole is trending upwards.
Alaska Management lives in their own world. In that world, it's absolutely essential that their employees get substandard everything compared to the other Legacy Carriers. They take it *personally*...VERY personally. Honestly, they'd rather go out of business than pay industry leading anything...even if they could easily afford it.

FLowpayFO
10-01-2016, 12:56 PM
I'm sure you didn't hear that from anyone who knows.

Straight from one of our MEC's, but maybe he's setting us up for low expectations. :cool:

ShyGuy
10-01-2016, 02:49 PM
Scope is negotiated as Section 1 of a joined collective bargaining agreement. I don't think there's any scope section of a TPA. The holdup seems to be on terms, time line, and/or the process of obtaining a JCBA. The only concerning thing I see is the zero future dates scheduled for TPA negotiations. No reason why they can't at least nail out a couple dates to meet in October to try and do more back/forths on Section 2 of the TPA.

airb320
10-01-2016, 03:12 PM
Just another airline management working for nobody but their shareholders!
If it takes that long just to hash out a TPA, how long do you think actual negotiations are going to take?!
We should absolutely NOT give any concessions, NONE...
I didn't ask to be sold to another small airline who doesn't know what they are doing or rather don't want to pay what the new industry standard is...geeezz...

OCCP
10-01-2016, 06:40 PM
Sounds like AS mgmt is living in the Stone Age. That good old boy small hometown Seattle airline attitude won't work when they're trying to fend off delta and JetBlue. This acquisition changes things for them and they can't afford to botch this. I hope they step up and play ball or we are all screwed.

Arctichicken
10-01-2016, 09:56 PM
I wouldn't expect anything less from the airgroup. They're only doing their job to see how we'll react as a group. Unfortunately, they're going about it in the wrong way and their arrogance & greed are blinding them. The best thing that we can do is to stay informed, unified, and not twitch. The company is walking on very thin ice and they are moving closer to being cornered. Barring another economic down turn and/or another 9/11 sort of attack, in which case everyone involved is screwed, we as a pilot group have a huge upper hand. The company needs the JCBA. Be prepared to see more junior pilots jump ship for greener pastures. Only the old, the die hard, and the rejects will remain aboard. Welcome to Mesa of the major world.

EskimoJoe
10-02-2016, 04:09 AM
The Problem Alaska Management has is this: None of us give a damn if their little merger experiment fails. It's laughable to think they're playing "hard ball" with a group of people that could care less if this deal ever closes. Both MEC's should just go home and forget all about this BS. This is 100% their problem. Who cares? BTW, They can Go ahead and Whip saw...see how quickly JD Powers (and customers) forget Alaska Airlines. If they want World War III, they can have it. It's their choice.

Arctichicken
10-02-2016, 09:10 AM
The company has everything to lose. Stalling negotiations, throttling back summer vacations, abusing reserves, ****ing off new hires (and the list goes on) will only make matters worse. Their bullying tactics will only backfire. No rah rah PDM, Flight Path, 4th Stripe, SIC Seminar, etc. is going to close the Pandora's box. The ice is getting thinner and Happy Gilmore pilots are becoming the endangered species.

NotTellin
10-02-2016, 12:05 PM
The best 2 lines in the JNC update.

"Management also must recognize the reality of the current bargaining environment, and that now is the time to negotiate improvements into the JCBA. We are not interested in making concessions."

Chris Knight
10-03-2016, 04:58 AM
The best 2 lines in the JNC update.

"Management also must recognize the reality of the current bargaining environment, and that now is the time to negotiate improvements into the JCBA. We are not interested in making concessions."

It's good to see. Keep it up.

ASpilot0936
10-10-2016, 09:00 PM
Minicucci thinks he's slick....

Mgm't is pi$$ing into the wind/backing themselves into a corner. Literally. They want to whipsaw us against Virgin? Fine. They can't do that without pi$$ing off EVERY workgroup at AS. I'm not just talking about pilots, but EVERYONE, CSA's, backoffice employees, everyone.

How?? Because what's the first thing they told us from day one/announcement? We're going to be one big happy family with Virgin. Koom by ya. If it turns out that their master plan all along was to whipsaw these two airlines against each other just to save $$$ on labor costs and that they lied to all of us to do it, then mgm't is going to have a LOT of VERY unhappy disgruntled employees who feel very betrayed and lied to. That doesn't bode very well for the productivity that they cherish so much.

So Brad & Ben now have a choice in this negotiating landscape where the pilots finally have the upper hand. Pony up more money and better work rules like every other CBA that has come out so far and actually merge the airlines like they promised they would and keep everybody happy, or keep delaying TPA negotiations and eventually whipsaw everyone against each other and have everybody at both airlines disgruntled, unhappy & never willing to trust managements words again. It’s their choice.

It comes down to this, what mgm't is racking their heads over right now guaranteed. "How can we whipsaw the two pilots groups against each other so we can save on labor costs but still merge the operations to keep everyone else happy?" You can't merge the operations. Not without a JCBA unless I'm missing something..

But how much you wanna bet they’re running the costs on both those scenarios?

Arctichicken
10-10-2016, 10:30 PM
I'm not 100% sure but I believe that the merger is not contingent on having a JCBA. All of the legal aspects of the merger can take place without it (ie. single certificate, DOJ approval, etc.). American did and others have also. The airgroup is more than capable of operating the two airlines separately and whipsawing the 3 pilot groups (Horizon too). Can you say scope, or lack thereof?
The company played us from the beginning. When the merger was announced in April, they knew they couldn't pi$$ us off so they acted like they wanted a JCBA before the end of the year. Now that the summer is over, they are stalling us. It's always the same old shots from their lame 'ole tactics playbook. They'll put their puppets into motion and start busting our chops as they always do. Look for more hat & uniform Nazis and sickleave-police. They'll pull every intimidation tactic known to mankind from their sphincter until it bleeds. Beatings will continue until morale improves. Arrogance and greed spew from their pores, which is blinding.
The sad truth is that their tactics won't work thanks to the new breed of pilots in force. Thank goodness that many of the pushover oldies are gone or are leaving. More importantly, the current economic conditions are not in management's favor. They are indeed treading on dangerous waters and pi$$ing into the wind. No work actions are required by this pilot group as management is only setting themselves up for failure resulting in an implosion. They're creating their own demise and it will be a sad day for all of us who are effected by their poor judgment. That too is okay with them since they all have golden parachutes.

dashtrash300
10-11-2016, 11:28 AM
I'm thinking some informational picketing outside of the terminal might help this out. Inform our customers that other airlines are valuing their pilots more than ours seems too

Reggie Dunlop
10-11-2016, 12:09 PM
In the six months since the merger was announced I have yet to meet one of you trembling, hyperbolic paranoid tinfoil hat wearing conspiracy farmers out on the line.

You make me a little nervous, but I am hoping that you are just the usual half dozen fear mongering malcontents that seem to inhabit every pilot ***** board since the internet was invented.

All the guys I meet seem pretty happy and looking forward to the future. You would think it is the end days to read all the bull**** in this thread. I guess checking in from time to time on APC is as useless as FI became years ago. Even the comedy nuggets are too few and far between all the chicken little prognostications.

Might be time to punch out of APC.

FlyAK
10-11-2016, 08:16 PM
In the six months since the merger was announced I have yet to meet one of you trembling, hyperbolic paranoid tinfoil hat wearing conspiracy farmers out on the line.

You make me a little nervous, but I am hoping that you are just the usual half dozen fear mongering malcontents that seem to inhabit every pilot ***** board since the internet was invented.

All the guys I meet seem pretty happy and looking forward to the future. You would think it is the end days to read all the bull**** in this thread. I guess checking in from time to time on APC is as useless as FI became years ago. Even the comedy nuggets are too few and far between all the chicken little prognostications.

Might be time to punch out of APC.

I'm not chicken little and I'm also not looking forward to this merger.... or the future of the Air Group for that matter. I do not see a path forward that does not involve a lot of suffering for our mid-seniority people. People who have been furloughed to pay for this merger are going to pay for it again with seniority loss...

Perhaps you have not flown with me "out on the line" but if you had I would not hesitate to tell you how I feel...

I will gladly do my part to shut this place down if negotiations do not go well. At last count the air group owes me at least a quarter million... and I'm happy to take it however I can...

FlyAK
10-11-2016, 08:28 PM
As to the original question for this thread...

Here is what I expect...

No PBS!
$280/$190 per hour...
Define "inadequate reserve coverage"
No penalty for vacation... i.e. Vacation months pay at least the value of the line bid...
An across the board 2% increase to the 401(k)
A real scope clause with seat/weight/airframe limits... both high and low...
An additional day off for reserves...
And a sick leave increase...

And "no" I will not give up anything to get those things...

Arctichicken
10-11-2016, 10:03 PM
In the six months since the merger was announced I have yet to meet one of you trembling, hyperbolic paranoid tinfoil hat wearing conspiracy farmers out on the line.

You make me a little nervous, but I am hoping that you are just the usual half dozen fear mongering malcontents that seem to inhabit every pilot ***** board since the internet was invented.

All the guys I meet seem pretty happy and looking forward to the future. You would think it is the end days to read all the bull**** in this thread. I guess checking in from time to time on APC is as useless as FI became years ago. Even the comedy nuggets are too few and far between all the chicken little prognostications.

Might be time to punch out of APC.

I'm guessing you don't work for the airgroup. If you did, you'd know how this management operate.
This merger does not benefit our pilot group; we have nothing to gain and everything to lose. If you have nothing constructive to add but only condescending remarks, please do all of us a favor and punch out of APC as you have suggested.

full of luv
10-12-2016, 07:38 AM
I'm guessing you don't work for the airgroup. If you did, you'd know how this management operate.
This merger does not benefit our pilot group; we have nothing to gain and everything to lose. If you have nothing constructive to add but only condescending remarks, please do all of us a favor and punch out of APC as you have suggested.

The day that Mgmt started calling itself an airgroup should have made the pilots nervous. It's almost like they telegraph their future whipsaw intentions at that point. Best of luck to all in the group.

LineGrinder400
10-12-2016, 03:30 PM
As to the original question for this thread...

Here is what I expect...

No PBS!
$280/$190 per hour...
Define "inadequate reserve coverage"
No penalty for vacation... i.e. Vacation months pay at least the value of the line bid...
An across the board 2% increase to the 401(k)
A real scope clause with seat/weight/airframe limits... both high and low...
An additional day off for reserves...
And a sick leave increase...

And "no" I will not give up anything to get those things...

This ^^

We simply cannot lose focus on creating a unified effort (us and our new VA brothers) in shooting for specific targets that shows respect of our value towards the Air Group's massive intake of profits of late.

As stated before, when times were "bad", the ALK pilot group sacrificed big time (Kasher). Now that times are very good, we should expect the appropriate corresponding gain... nothing less.

airb320
10-12-2016, 05:04 PM
As to the original question for this thread...

Here is what I expect...

No PBS!
$280/$190 per hour...
Define "inadequate reserve coverage"
No penalty for vacation... i.e. Vacation months pay at least the value of the line bid...
An across the board 2% increase to the 401(k)
A real scope clause with seat/weight/airframe limits... both high and low...
An additional day off for reserves...
And a sick leave increase...

And "no" I will not give up anything to get those things...

...Why not industry standard 16% 401k
Why not 2.5hrs of pay if extended (FDP) for 30 minutes or less and 5hrs from 31minutes +...like United and soon Southwest

Why are you lowballing the best negotiations landscape in the history ?

Virgin Pilots will help you figure it out...😅

OCCP
10-12-2016, 05:08 PM
I like PBS, much better than line bidding. So much easier to customize your schedule.

ShyGuy
10-12-2016, 05:16 PM
One additional day off for reserves? For Alaska that would make it 13. VX already gets 13 off. We need at least 14 days off for reserves to be in line with industry average for the legacy carriers.

Arctichicken
10-12-2016, 07:01 PM
As to the original question for this thread...

Here is what I expect...

No PBS!
$280/$190 per hour...
Define "inadequate reserve coverage"
No penalty for vacation... i.e. Vacation months pay at least the value of the line bid...
An across the board 2% increase to the 401(k)
A real scope clause with seat/weight/airframe limits... both high and low...
An additional day off for reserves...
And a sick leave increase...

And "no" I will not give up anything to get those things...

PBS-H**l NO! I know many Virgin guys want this but you will not like PBS controlled by the airgroup.
$280/$190 to start w/6% annual increase minimum-completely doable with greater of block hours flown or 6 hours of pay per calendar day, 6 hours for vacation day, and 6 hours for training day. Raise min guarantee for both block & reserve pilots. For the w****es and the lazy, get rid of the min and max.
17% into 401k and snap up to 19% by the end of the contract. Bring back the pension plan with the ability to choose between straight 401k or pension plan.
Scope-76 seats or less and put a % cap of flying that can be done by them.
15 days off for reserves.
Sick leave similar to Delta or better.
Paid training lodging for new hires plus per diem.
Per diem raised to $5/hr. It's been $2/hr since when ($2.15 in our last contract-woo hoo!)???
Better crew meal language
Better hotel language
$300 to drive to co-terminal bases with parking included
ETOPS/International pay of $10/$8 per hour for the entire pairing

Some of you may laugh at this but the airgroup is more than capable of accommodating our requests. They raped us during Kasher and they've been making $$$ hand over fist since then. Can you say RECORD PROFITS? We've been leaving $150 million + on the table every negotiations for I can't remember how long. Just based on compounding interest alone, they can pay us and then some.
This will not be give and take but only take on our part. No more concessions, ALPA!!!

LineGrinder400
10-12-2016, 08:17 PM
PBS-H**l NO! I know many Virgin guys want this but you will not like PBS controlled by the airgroup.
$280/$190 to start w/6% annual increase minimum-completely doable with greater of block hours flown or 6 hours of pay per calendar day, 6 hours for vacation day, and 6 hours for training day. Raise min guarantee for both block & reserve pilots. For the w****es and the lazy, get rid of the min and max.
17% into 401k and snap up to 19% by the end of the contract. Bring back the pension plan with the ability to choose between straight 401k or pension plan.
Scope-76 seats or less and put a % cap of flying that can be done by them.
15 days off for reserves.
Sick leave similar to Delta or better.
Paid training lodging for new hires plus per diem.
Per diem raised to $5/hr. It's been $2/hr since when ($2.15 in our last contract-woo hoo!)???
Better crew meal language
Better hotel language
$300 to drive to co-terminal bases with parking included
ETOPS/International pay of $10/$8 per hour for the entire pairing

Some of you may laugh at this but the airgroup is more than capable of accommodating our requests. They raped us during Kasher and they've been making $$$ hand over fist since then. Can you say RECORD PROFITS? We've been leaving $150 million + on the table every negotiations for I can't remember how long. Just based on compounding interest alone, they can pay us and then some.
This will not be give and take but only take on our part. No more concessions, ALPA!!!

If anyone is laughing or scoffing at these demands on the thought they are "unrealistic", then it is simply a display of ignorance at the current reality of Air Group profit margins of late and the state of industry on the whole.

A huge sacrifice was made during the bad times. Now a huge gain will be expected. If I even hear the word "concession" as part of a future TA, it is very likely an automatic no vote from me. Nothing personal... just the cost of doing business in today's reality.

I am prepared to take a big stand with this one... I hope others feel the same.

ERJFO
10-13-2016, 12:00 AM
Did anyone actually do the math to see what the economic impact of what your suggestions are? I see a lot of "the Air Group can afford it" without any justification.

ShyGuy
10-13-2016, 05:30 AM
Can anyone give some background on what the Kasher award was? What led to it? Was AK Group in bankruptcy at the time?

Chris Knight
10-13-2016, 08:19 AM
Can anyone give some background on what the Kasher award was? What led to it? Was AK Group in bankruptcy at the time?

AAG was never in bankruptcy, but times were hard in the industry and management approached the Association for concessions. Ultimately it led to "baseball arbitration", where Kasher chose management's proposal. I'm sure others have more info as I was not there.

Mea25000
10-13-2016, 09:17 AM
The industry mark is a 255# with about 3% a year in cola.
Middle of seniority of AS will be fine, our CEO and COO have both stated publicly that the equipment will be separate at AS and VX for at least the next 5 years. AS pilots will get all of their upgrades on the 737 and VX will keep all of their near term growth on the bus.
Scheduling changes will be made but not enough. PBS?? I would think has less then a 30% chance of being in the next contract.
I won't laugh. Yes, in this environment your #'s could be paid. I think the 22% profit margins would be pulled to almost 10% and seeing every other workgroup would seek similar increases the margins could fall bellow 3%. We all want big raises but I think you have to be realistic.
Retirement I don't think will be touched because it is a lot more complex then most other sections.
Scope? Well I honestly don't know anymore about this one. This is the big hold up in the TPA right now. This one may surprise me and we might finally end up with real scope... the union is holding its ground right now

LineGrinder400
10-13-2016, 09:23 AM
Did anyone actually do the math to see what the economic impact of what your suggestions are? I see a lot of "the Air Group can afford it" without any justification.

Air Group Second Quarter Report Highlights:

*Reported record second quarter net income, excluding special items, of $263 million, a 14% increase over the second quarter of 2015. Adjusted diluted earnings per share of $2.12 was a 20% increase over the second quarter of 2015.

*Generated approximately $900 million of operating cash flow and $560 million of free cash flow in the first six months of 2016.

*Expanded adjusted pre-tax margins from 25.7% in the second quarter of 2015, to 28.4% in the second quarter of 2016

*Held $1.6 billion in unrestricted cash and marketable securities as of June 30, 2016

*I want to thank our terrific people, who were once again recognized by J.D. Power for having the highest customer satisfaction among traditional network airlines for the 9th consecutive year.
-Tilden

Arctichicken
10-13-2016, 09:30 AM
Did anyone actually do the math to see what the economic impact of what your suggestions are? I see a lot of "the Air Group can afford it" without any justification.

The air group is the most profitable passenger airline in the U.S. They have been making record profits on our backs for the last 8+ years. They make 20%+ profit compared to single digits by the big boys and low 10s by some of the more successful major airlines. The legacies make their profit on volume but ounce for ounce, the air group is a powerhouse. According to Mr. Tilden, company’s earnings per share are expected to outperform all but 36 companies in the S&P 500. The air group's net profit in 2015 was $842 million. Just to give you an idea, the air group's 2016 first quarter net profit was $184 million-another record! As we all know, the first quarter is the slowest season.
So to pay out $150-$200 million more for your average 3-5 year contract...I'd say it's quite doable!
For everyone out there, please take the time to educate yourself. You have heard of the internet, right!?:D

LineGrinder400
10-13-2016, 10:27 AM
And we cannot forget this part of the story as well as it relates to bargaining power (note that we are already four years into this chart)...

PILOT RETIREMENT NUMBERS (2012-2047)

http://pilotjobs.atpflightschool.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Airlineretirements1.jpg

OCCP
11-11-2016, 12:30 PM
Alaska management still unwilling to complete the TPA. ***. I wonder what the real holdup is.

plt32173
11-11-2016, 05:55 PM
Alaska management still unwilling to complete the TPA. ***. I wonder what the real holdup is.

Agreed. Just read the update. Seems scope might be the hold up. Still a little confused..maybe someone else can read between the lines better then me ;)

busbusbaby
11-13-2016, 08:28 AM
Agreed. Just read the update. Seems scope might be the hold up. Still a little confused..maybe someone else can read between the lines better then me ;)

Yes it is scope, the company wants to only surgically negotiate sections of scope and recognition, the union wants to negotiate the whole section not just surgically carved out areas.

Oooo
11-13-2016, 07:14 PM
AS management is used to negotiating with pilots who roll over on scope. Guess they're up to their old MO

AJ Crowley
11-14-2016, 12:39 PM
AS management is used to negotiating with pilots who roll over on scope. Guess they're up to their old MO

Their are new pilots in the mix. Their old MO won't work anymore.

Arctichicken
11-14-2016, 07:45 PM
If management can leave their ego at the door and truly care for their investors and themselves, they would benefit enormously by negotiating a industry standard contract ASAP. There's already bad blood with this pilot group and no need to add 700 more. Dragging negotiations will only make things worse for both sides. Greed and arrogance is truly blinding.

Klsytakesit
11-15-2016, 06:12 AM
They use simple tools to gauge the temper of negotiations.....hiring and retention....1) are they able to easily hire enough pilots to meet their needs/are they keeping a reserve(most of the pilots that they dont hire )....2) Retention- are they retaining most of the pilots they do hire....and 3) are most of the pilots they hire coming with multiple internal reccomendations....

Singlecoil
11-15-2016, 07:28 AM
They use simple tools to gauge the temper of negotiations.....hiring and retention....1) are they able to easily hire enough pilots to meet their needs/are they keeping a reserve(most of the pilots that they dont hire )....2) Retention- are they retaining most of the pilots they do hire....and 3) are most of the pilots they hire coming with multiple internal reccomendations....

That is very true. I think we are the lowest paid pilots in the industry right now or soon will be. You can pretty much count on the fact that during a contract cycle in the future, Alaska pilots will be the lowest paid at some point as others leapfrog and we struggle to keep up. It does seem management uses the three guides you mention to assess how they are doing. Unfortunately for them, if there truly is an industry-wide shortage of talent out there, all three of those chickens will come home to roost simultaneously, making it impossible for them to staff the airline. See Horizon for an example. Once they get to that point, there is no easy solution.

EskimoJoe
11-16-2016, 03:52 AM
If management can leave their ego at the door and truly care for their investors and themselves, they would benefit enormously by negotiating a industry standard contract ASAP. There's already bad blood with this pilot group and no need to add 700 more. Dragging negotiations will only make things worse for both sides. Greed and arrogance is truly blinding.
They're going to drag this out into 2018/2019.

Chris Knight
11-16-2016, 09:05 AM
They're going to drag this out into 2018/2019.

Apparently, TPA language sets a timeline where the process, whether it be through negotiations alone or with mediation/arbitration, is designed to be completed before the amendable date. I hear the TPA will be made available to view once it is complete.

Mea25000
11-16-2016, 10:25 AM
Pretty sad. Looks like we get to subsidize the cost of the merger. Management has the JV team in there playing dumb, pretending to be unable to understand. Union wants everyone to send polite notes to management. Summer of 2018
SWA pilots will be making $266hr their profit sharing is better... so with our current profit sharing we would need to make about $14 hour more then their rates or $280hr in 2018.
If we can't get the same compensation package as a SWA pilot then I would say our union isn't doing its job!

Imbracablecrunk
11-16-2016, 02:26 PM
Pretty sad. Looks like we get to subsidize the cost of the merger. Management has the JV team in there playing dumb, pretending to be unable to understand. Union wants everyone to send polite notes to management. Summer of 2018
SWA pilots will be making $266hr their profit sharing is better... so with our current profit sharing we would need to make about $14 hour more then their rates or $280hr in 2018.
If we can't get the same compensation package as a SWA pilot then I would say our union isn't doing its job!

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Don't rock the boat that laid the golden egg! Slow and steady, that's our style. We need to leverage our core metrics and keep competitive by reducing our CASMs and maximizing ROI!

Sure, all the other pilot groups will be laughing at us and complaining that we dragged the industry down, but we'll be the true winners when it comes to getting along well with our management and union.

/s

Klsytakesit
11-17-2016, 06:01 AM
That is very true. I think we are the lowest paid pilots in the industry right now or soon will be. You can pretty much count on the fact that during a contract cycle in the future, Alaska pilots will be the lowest paid at some point as others leapfrog and we struggle to keep up. It does seem management uses the three guides you mention to assess how they are doing. Unfortunately for them, if there truly is an industry-wide shortage of talent out there, all three of those chickens will come home to roost simultaneously, making it impossible for them to staff the airline. See Horizon for an example. Once they get to that point, there is no easy solution.
We will be...by any measure....Our problem is how we view ourselves and how we believe they need to view us....We need to stop viewing ourselves as somehow adding value/leading/necessary/ important and just view ourselves as employees who can and should extract substantial wage and benefit gains from our employer...Our only "value" is that we cannot all be replaced at once. We should have been beating that drum loudy the day after Kasher released us from indebted servitude.....There is no "B" team in management as one uninformed poster mentioned.....Facts are this...They know that for 50.1% of the pilot group it is more important to be an "Alaska" pilot than it is to be a pilot with great benefits/ work rules/wages....They know that most Alaska pilots believe to be a cut above orher pilots and are willing to trade contract gains for perceived status....They also know that there is a steady supply of talented pilots that dont have all the bs window dressing like college degrees/community service/internal recommendations/ irrational cravings that the current crowd have.....They can fill a class a month for the rest of time without another interview......Thats the story period

Mea25000
11-17-2016, 08:18 AM
There is most definitely a "B" team in management. The B team does not control the purse of the company. They work for the A team but really don't have the final say on anything. Our company tends to use the B team as the bad cop in negotiations. When moral of the common worker.. i.e. the pilot, finally deteriorates to a significant level, the B team negotiators make way for an A team negotiator to ride in on a white horse and settle up the contract.

OCCP
11-17-2016, 09:25 AM
They know that most Alaska pilots believe to be a cut above orher pilots and are willing to trade contract gains for perceived status.


Not to be a dbag, but this makes me laugh! What kind of status is that? It's not like it's Delta! But judging from my interactions with Alaska pilots since I came to the airlines over a decade ago, I believe your statement is 100% accurate.

NotTellin
11-17-2016, 11:13 AM
Facts are this...They know that for 50.1% of the pilot group it is more important to be an "Alaska" pilot than it is to be a pilot with great benefits/ work rules/wages....They know that most Alaska pilots believe to be a cut above other pilots and are willing to trade contract gains for perceived status.

Your 50.1% will be skewed by over 700 pilots at VX that have no such preconceived ideas about Alaska. Alaska will be airline number 8 for me. I can say with certainty that some are definitely better than others. BUT NONE ARE WORTH TAKING LESS THAN YOU DESERVE!

Mea25000
11-17-2016, 11:13 AM
Not to be a dbag, but this makes me laugh! What kind of status is that? It's not like it's Delta! But judging from my interactions with Alaska pilots since I came to the airlines over a decade ago, I believe your statement is 100% accurate.

I have been at AS more then 15 years and I have never noticed that mentality. I have noticed a little of the "we can't make too much or we will kill the golden goose" crowd....but most of them are older and in the minority now. I honestly think we have some of the nicest, most humble pilots in the industry. That may be our problem, we are just too nice and way too accommodating. There is an industry bar and I want to be above it. I know this is the majority thought at AS now.
The above attitude usually stems from having wanted a job here and not getting it or not even getting the interview. I am confident if that was the case that you did deserve a job offer at AS... its a funny industry

Chris Knight
11-17-2016, 01:51 PM
I have been at AS more then 15 years and I have never noticed that mentality. I have noticed a little of the "we can't make too much or we will kill the golden goose" crowd....but most of them are older and in the minority now. I honestly think we have some of the nicest, most humble pilots in the industry. That may be our problem, we are just too nice and way too accommodating. There is an industry bar and I want to be above it. I know this is the majority thought at AS now.
The above attitude usually stems from having wanted a job here and not getting it or not even getting the interview. I am confident if that was the case that you did deserve a job offer at AS... its a funny industry

Yeah I haven't seen anyone exhibit that mentality. Most pilots agree, pay is status.

OCCP
11-17-2016, 02:44 PM
A few years ago there were a lot more pro-company VX pilots too. That mostly ended about 2 years ago. From my first day in the airlines I've always been told to never trust mgmt and pilots need to look after ourselves. I have no loyalty to AS management. Show me scope, money and career advancement.

Yetifan
11-17-2016, 05:08 PM
A few years ago there were a lot more pro-company VX pilots too. That mostly ended about 2 years ago. From my first day in the airlines I've always been told to never trust mgmt and pilots need to look after ourselves. I have no loyalty to AS management. Show me scope, money and career advancement.

^^^This!^^^

mike734
11-17-2016, 08:20 PM
The air group is the most profitable passenger airline in the U.S. They have been making record profits on our backs for the last 8+ years. They make 20%+ profit compared to single digits by the big boys and low 10s by some of the more successful major airlines. The legacies make their profit on volume but ounce for ounce, the air group is a powerhouse. According to Mr. Tilden, company’s earnings per share are expected to outperform all but 36 companies in the S&P 500. The air group's net profit in 2015 was $842 million. Just to give you an idea, the air group's 2016 first quarter net profit was $184 million-another record! As we all know, the first quarter is the slowest season.
So to pay out $150-$200 million more for your average 3-5 year contract...I'd say it's quite doable!
For everyone out there, please take the time to educate yourself. You have heard of the internet, right!?:D

The only thing stopping us from achieving a industry leading contract is Brad doesn't want to be fired. I don't see how he and/or Ben can survive "giving" us a large raise. Perhaps a large golden parachute is in the works. Something has to change for there to be movement.

jayme
11-17-2016, 08:49 PM
He'd survive because he can tell his bosses that if he didn't give the raise they wouldn't get their merger

Klsytakesit
11-17-2016, 10:26 PM
Yeah I haven't seen anyone exhibit that mentality. Most pilots agree, pay is status.

our voting record for the last 12 years clearly says otherwise....
Amongst the alpa airline crowd we are famous for being the"All talk but no Action group...

OCCP
11-18-2016, 09:09 AM
The latest JNC ledger email from today further shows Alaska management refusing to come to the table and complete the TPA. I think the gloves are off and the company is now playing dirty. It's like they are not even aware of the other airlines and their contracts and TA's and the like. At this point no one should be all talk and no action.

Reggie Dunlop
11-18-2016, 12:07 PM
The latest JNC ledger email from today further shows Alaska management refusing to come to the table and complete the TPA. I think the gloves are off and the company is now playing dirty. It's like they are not even aware of the other airlines and their contracts and TA's and the like. At this point no one should be all talk and no action.

Have you considered they just are simply not going to sign anything until the DOJ part is done. Why agree to terms on anything until the deal is done? Anything they agree to now could be used against them when section 6 opens if the deal fall through.

I know pilots love to think we are the center of the universe, but there are a lot of moving parts. As simple example it could be that they need to know where the codeshare and JV provisions of the DOJ settlement shake out before they agree to what sections of scope they want to talk about.

That's just one example. Save the hyperbole gloves off yada yada yada for now. I think it is a safe bet that as soon as the DOJ signs off the TPA will be done and all the hand wringing chicken little talk will be for naught.

We will see.

OCCP
11-18-2016, 01:09 PM
Yes I have thought of that, but I still don't care. I'm just not impressed with Alaska management...I'm not impressed with VX management either. I'm a pilot so I'll never be happy!

Chris Knight
11-18-2016, 01:26 PM
Yes I have thought of that, but I still don't care. I'm just not impressed with Alaska management...I'm not impressed with VX management either. I'm a pilot so I'll never be happy!

As long as you are happy with that. ;)

FLowpayFO
11-18-2016, 05:11 PM
Have you considered they just are simply not going to sign anything until the DOJ part is done. Why agree to terms on anything until the deal is done? Anything they agree to now could be used against them when section 6 opens if the deal fall through.

I know pilots love to think we are the center of the universe, but there are a lot of moving parts. As simple example it could be that they need to know where the codeshare and JV provisions of the DOJ settlement shake out before they agree to what sections of scope they want to talk about.

That's just one example. Save the hyperbole gloves off yada yada yada for now. I think it is a safe bet that as soon as the DOJ signs off the TPA will be done and all the hand wringing chicken little talk will be for naught.

We will see.

Excellent point of view.

Arctichicken
11-18-2016, 07:33 PM
Have you considered they just are simply not going to sign anything until the DOJ part is done. Why agree to terms on anything until the deal is done? Anything they agree to now could be used against them when section 6 opens if the deal fall through.

I know pilots love to think we are the center of the universe, but there are a lot of moving parts. As simple example it could be that they need to know where the codeshare and JV provisions of the DOJ settlement shake out before they agree to what sections of scope they want to talk about.

That's just one example. Save the hyperbole gloves off yada yada yada for now. I think it is a safe bet that as soon as the DOJ signs off the TPA will be done and all the hand wringing chicken little talk will be for naught.

We will see.
Truly thinking like management. According to our MEC, the TPA is taking longer than any other mergers that have taken place in the recent years. It's in the best interest of management to drag this TPA and negotiations out as long as possible. Let's not forget how ruthless and cold this management group can be and have been. In the name of business, they will eat their young if need be. Remember, arrogance and greed....

AKpilot
11-21-2016, 09:12 AM
Yes I have thought of that, but I still don't care. I'm just not impressed with Alaska management...I'm not impressed with VX management either. I'm a pilot so I'll never be happy!

""The air group is the most profitable passenger airline in the U.S. They have been making record profits on our backs for the last 8+ years. They make 20%+ profit compared to single digits by the big boys and low 10s by some of the more successful major airlines. The legacies make their profit on volume but ounce for ounce, the air group is a powerhouse. According to Mr. Tilden, company’s earnings per share are expected to outperform all but 36 companies in the S&P 500. The air group's net profit in 2015 was $842 million. Just to give you an idea, the air group's 2016 first quarter net profit was $184 million-another record! As we all know, the first quarter is the slowest season.""

So please answer which airline management do you like? Which airline has a better management team? The management we have now is not the same as we had 10-15 years ago. It's a different airline. Different environment. Our current contract is not up till 2018. They could have just stuck to that date. While I'm not happy with the progress of the TPA etc. I think they have their hands full with the VX merger. From what I have heard from ALPA communications the Management side of the negotiation team are amateurs. I support the "NO concessions and industry leading pay" mantra. Most of the people I fly with are very happy at AS but ARE expecting a BIG pay bump.

The Airline industry is doing better now than has in the past decades. AS has been hiring pilots and FA's. New pilots are spending less than a year on reserve. If you are not happy now you will never be happy. With all the airlines hiring you should bail to the one you think is best.

pilot207
11-21-2016, 11:23 AM
According to the news we should see the DOJ finally giving the stamp of approval for the merger. Hopefully this means we can speed up negotiations and start new hire classes again (stagnant since June at VX , and we run paper thin on pilots)
Alaska Airlines Acquisition of Virgin America Close to Closing (ALK, VA) | Investopedia (http://www.investopedia.com/news/alaska-airlines-acquisition-virgin-america-close-closing-alk-va/)

ShyGuy
11-21-2016, 11:49 AM
Have you considered they just are simply not going to sign anything until the DOJ part is done. Why agree to terms on anything until the deal is done? Anything they agree to now could be used against them when section 6 opens if the deal fall through.

I know pilots love to think we are the center of the universe, but there are a lot of moving parts. As simple example it could be that they need to know where the codeshare and JV provisions of the DOJ settlement shake out before they agree to what sections of scope they want to talk about.

That's just one example. Save the hyperbole gloves off yada yada yada for now. I think it is a safe bet that as soon as the DOJ signs off the TPA will be done and all the hand wringing chicken little talk will be for naught.

We will see.


Excellent point of view.



Union updates said the actions are borderline bad faith in regards to scope section for the TPA, and we have pilots here saying the above.

Wow :rolleyes:

OCCP
11-21-2016, 12:24 PM
AKpilot,

I'm not a fan of any airline management. I've been around long enough to see every single airline rob their employees. I simply desire a career with upward movement, qol, and money. Right now I have the QOL but that could go way if we get some old fashioned line bidding.

Mea25000
11-21-2016, 01:24 PM
Well if PBS affords you your QOL, I am almost positive you are going to be unhappy. Hiring at VX... from everything I have heard the bus is going to shrink with the almost immediate removal of all 319 and a couple 320's... verdict is still out on the 321. If the group turns a cold shoulder to the NEO, which at this point I would put at likely, you will most likely see minimal to zero hires on the bus. It maybe time to start studying for the 73 transition.

CassinAK
11-21-2016, 01:24 PM
""The air group is the most profitable passenger airline in the U.S. They have been making record profits on our backs for the last 8+ years. They make 20%+ profit compared to single digits by the big boys and low 10s by some of the more successful major airlines. The legacies make their profit on volume but ounce for ounce, the air group is a powerhouse. According to Mr. Tilden, company’s earnings per share are expected to outperform all but 36 companies in the S&P 500. The air group's net profit in 2015 was $842 million. Just to give you an idea, the air group's 2016 first quarter net profit was $184 million-another record! As we all know, the first quarter is the slowest season.""



So please answer which airline management do you like? Which airline has a better management team? The management we have now is not the same as we had 10-15 years ago. It's a different airline. Different environment. Our current contract is not up till 2018. They could have just stuck to that date. While I'm not happy with the progress of the TPA etc. I think they have their hands full with the VX merger. From what I have heard from ALPA communications the Management side of the negotiation team are amateurs. I support the "NO concessions and industry leading pay" mantra. Most of the people I fly with are very happy at AS but ARE expecting a BIG pay bump.



The Airline industry is doing better now than has in the past decades. AS has been hiring pilots and FA's. New pilots are spending less than a year on reserve. If you are not happy now you will never be happy. With all the airlines hiring you should bail to the one you think is best.



They couldn't stick to the 2018 contract date because a merger triggers the Labor Protective Provisions of our contract that requires a JCBA and SLI. Management isn't negotiating a new contract because they want to its because our contract requires it.

AKpilot
11-21-2016, 02:12 PM
"""They couldn't stick to the 2018 contract date because a merger triggers the Labor Protective Provisions of our contract that requires a JCBA and SLI. Management isn't negotiating a new contract because they want to its because our contract requires it."""

I did not know that... Maybe it's time to do something to get their (mgt) attention. I don't think lanyards, buttons and stickers do much. Maybe Info Picketing, Big Billboard ? I still think the merger is consuming their attention. I hope they will show some positive trends soon.

CassinAK
11-21-2016, 05:31 PM
"""They couldn't stick to the 2018 contract date because a merger triggers the Labor Protective Provisions of our contract that requires a JCBA and SLI. Management isn't negotiating a new contract because they want to its because our contract requires it."""

I did not know that... Maybe it's time to do something to get their (mgt) attention. I don't think lanyards, buttons and stickers do much. Maybe Info Picketing, Big Billboard ? I still think the merger is consuming their attention. I hope they will show some positive trends soon.



I'd imagine some informational picketing after DOJ approval of the merger would add some pressure.. Mgt wouldn't like us dirtying up their image of the "Perfect" merger.

Ispeakjive
11-21-2016, 10:28 PM
The Union language is vague. Aside from telling us that "management is acting in bad faith", what is really happening?

mike734
11-22-2016, 11:46 AM
The Union language is vague. Aside from telling us that "management is acting in bad faith", what is really happening?

I think the bottom line is nothing is happening. Not to be flip but I'm not getting excited about this until the DOJ rules on the merger.

Arctichicken
11-25-2016, 01:05 PM
Stockholm Syndrome! Yes, some of you have it. Making excuses on behalf of management, seriously?! They are completely dissing this pilot group and you don't even know it. Wise up, people!

Mea25000
11-25-2016, 06:48 PM
It is honestly ridiculous! Merger done by the end of next week. Interesting times indeed.

Going2Baja
11-26-2016, 09:26 AM
And we cannot forget this part of the story as well as it relates to bargaining power (note that we are already four years into this chart)...

PILOT RETIREMENT NUMBERS (2012-2047)

http://pilotjobs.atpflightschool.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Airlineretirements1.jpg

Is this accurate? I thought that AA had everyone beat when it came to Retirements.

Baja.

fucius
11-26-2016, 01:14 PM
Is this accurate? I thought that AA had everyone beat when it came to Retirements.

Baja.
American and US Airways


Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

Reggie Dunlop
11-27-2016, 02:13 PM
Stockholm Syndrome! Yes, some of you have it. Making excuses on behalf of management, seriously?! They are completely dissing this pilot group and you don't even know it. Wise up, people!

Not excuses for anything or anybody...just smart enough to see the world for how it works. Easier on the blood pressure to understand the game for what it is than to than to be a paranoid, self aggrandizing angry elf who buys in to the notion that the world revolves around him.

Don't worry so much Chicken bro'... it'll be okay. But just to be on the safe side, do yourself a favor and ask your doctor if your heart is healthy enough for sex.

gazoo34
11-27-2016, 03:11 PM
It's funny the pilots as a group don't feel any obligation to help the younger pilots coming into the system. Having left the military I miss the comraderie and the support I gave and was given to the junior pilots. Part 121 pilots have an "all for me just for me" attitude and it's sad because this used to be a great respectable profession.
Pilots used to have strong unions that ensured the respectability of the profession, what happened?
Now you have unions voting in contracts that pay an FO, someone that has numerous lives literally in the palm of their hands less than the burger flippers at SEA. How does this happen I ask again?

ShyGuy
11-27-2016, 04:12 PM
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/delta-pilots-oppose-larger-regional-214037142.html

There's a reason mgt wants the union to pinpoint exactly what part of Section 1 that needs to be negotiated. They don't want to risk it going to arbitration per the current AS contract in order to get a JCBA. We need it all: weight restriction, seat limit, grandfather in current ones, restrict future RJs, and ratio for RJ removal for any loss of mainline 737/320 fleets.

Arctichicken
11-27-2016, 04:20 PM
Not excuses for anything or anybody...just smart enough to see the world for how it works. Easier on the blood pressure to understand the game for what it is than to than to be a paranoid, self aggrandizing angry elf who buys in to the notion that the world revolves around him.

Don't worry so much Chicken bro'... it'll be okay. But just to be on the safe side, do yourself a favor and ask your doctor if your heart is healthy enough for sex.

Obviously, you don't get it.
In regards to my health, your mom said that I was great. Thanks, son!

Reggie Dunlop
11-27-2016, 08:10 PM
Obviously, you don't get it.
In regards to my health, your mom said that I was great. Thanks, son!

Prickly little thing ain't ya? Mature little fella, too. Mom jabs? Come on Chicken...you call yourself a professional right?

You can do better than that. Come on now.

Imbracablecrunk
11-28-2016, 04:25 AM
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/delta-pilots-oppose-larger-regional-214037142.html

There's a reason mgt wants the union to pinpoint exactly what part of Section 1 that needs to be negotiated. They don't want to risk it going to arbitration per the current AS contract in order to get a JCBA. We need it all: weight restriction, seat limit, grandfather in current ones, restrict future RJs, and ratio for RJ removal for any loss of mainline 737/320 fleets.

Ding ding. Maybe the union has done this, but does anyone feel they have done an adequate job of educating our group about scope and our lack of it?

Arctichicken
11-28-2016, 08:01 AM
It's funny the pilots as a group don't feel any obligation to help the younger pilots coming into the system. Having left the military I miss the comraderie and the support I gave and was given to the junior pilots. Part 121 pilots have an "all for me just for me" attitude and it's sad because this used to be a great respectable profession.
Pilots used to have strong unions that ensured the respectability of the profession, what happened?
Now you have unions voting in contracts that pay an FO, someone that has numerous lives literally in the palm of their hands less than the burger flippers at SEA. How does this happen I ask again?

I've asked this very same question myself. You already know the answer. Love of money and selfish motives are the culprit in every case. There's a common goal in the military and mutual support is the lifeline in and out of the cockpit. In the airline world, CRM/mutual support ends when the brakes are set and the L1 door is opened. You are absolutely right; we need a change and lose the "I got mine" attitude.

OCCP
11-28-2016, 11:21 AM
Ding ding. Maybe the union has done this, but does anyone feel they have done an adequate job of educating our group about scope and our lack of it?



A quick look at history can show us the importance of scope

CassinAK
11-28-2016, 01:29 PM
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161128/f022bf6db98041c4c9b423171169f89b.jpg

Here is a nice piece of company propaganda from our last contract negotiations.

gazoo34
11-28-2016, 02:25 PM
So looking at the date and looking at the Skywest E175s painted in ALK colors how does the union feel about the that LIE?...
I am still dumbfounded by a pilot group that believes management!
Again it's the senior pilots ensuring their get theirs just like the "baby" generation sucking up the economic marrow of the US.

gazoo34
11-28-2016, 02:31 PM
It seems after that reply to the question Ben Brookman was promoted to "Director Network Planning" moving up from manager. Does the union follow the lie trail?

CassinAK
11-28-2016, 02:33 PM
So looking at the date and looking at the Skywest E175s painted in ALK colors how does the union feel about the that LIE?...

I am still dumbfounded by a pilot group that believes management!

Again it's the senior pilots ensuring their get theirs just like the "baby" generation sucking up the economic marrow of the US.



I'm pretty sure our ALPA leaders knew the companies plans for ERJ-175s during our last contract negotiations. Problem was not enough Alaska pilots cared.

Now that there are 58 76 seat ERJs on their way plus another 30 options which could very easily be turned into 120 seat 195s

Routes that once had a 737 are being replaced with 175s in Portland so now the Senior pilots are starting to care. It's sad that that's what it takes to get people's attention but at least more people are starting to realize the threat.

No Scope No Vote!

Yetifan
11-28-2016, 05:25 PM
Scope is by far THE most important subject in the jcba. It baffles me to hear there's guys out there who still think managment will "take care of them"!!! Horizon, Skywest and probably Compass soon too will be drooling to get their hands on routes that currently have mainline aircraft flying them. It's seriously now or never...

OrionDriver
11-28-2016, 05:31 PM
Gonna be real interesting... Having come from the military to the airlines recently, this whole union and contract thing is new to me. I'm learning a great deal...

OCCP
11-28-2016, 08:37 PM
Well if you ever want to see the left seat you better hope we get good scope language.

CassinAK
11-29-2016, 08:29 AM
The best way to get good SCOPE language is to keep talking to your Alpa reps. The more they hear about it the more leverage they have to fight.

AJ Crowley
11-29-2016, 11:19 AM
I'm pretty sure our ALPA leaders knew the companies plans for ERJ-175s during our last contract negotiations. Problem was not enough Alaska pilots cared.

Now that there are 58 76 seat ERJs on their way plus another 30 options which could very easily be turned into 120 seat 195s

Routes that once had a 737 are being replaced with 175s in Portland so now the Senior pilots are starting to care. It's sad that that's what it takes to get people's attention but at least more people are starting to realize the threat.

No Scope No Vote!

Screw their orders. We need scope to tie RJs to a small percentage of mainline fleet size.

ASpilot0936
12-01-2016, 03:33 PM
DAL's TA passed

Anybody have the new payscale?

LandGreen2
12-01-2016, 04:45 PM
DAL's TA passed

Anybody have the new payscale?



Delta TA Pro/Con (http://www.taprocon.com/#/)

ASpilot0936
12-01-2016, 05:48 PM
Delta TA Pro/Con (http://www.taprocon.com/#/)


Thanks.

OUR PAY NEEDS TO SIGNIFICANTLY GO UP. PERIOD.

Let the Brad & Ben show keep preaching "we only pay market rates" The market just went up boys.

OrionDriver
12-01-2016, 07:32 PM
Thanks.

OUR PAY NEEDS TO SIGNIFICANTLY GO UP. PERIOD.

Let the Brad & Ben show keep preaching "we only pay market rates" The market just went up boys.

A LOT! Those are some big numbers over at Big D. In a way, its nice to be negotiating our contract after just about everyone else has done theirs. Lots of useful...data points...

greaser
12-01-2016, 08:53 PM
Before any drooling over Delta's section 3, lets have a close look at their section 1, and what AS is missing: Scope.

I don't care if they offer the moon as far as pay rates: The economy, the price of oil, etc. can change on a dime. Air Group can do what they please to respond to that. Despite the much-hyped pilot shortage, SkyWest is having no trouble staffing for their new E175s.

No scope = no vote.

YXnot
12-02-2016, 08:01 AM
This ex YXer echoes the no scope = no vote sentiment.

I can tell you from personal experience, and that WITH some semblance of a scope clause in force, that you do not want to experience a day when a RAH170(pick your CPA carrier) in your paint pulls up to the gates you used to fly out of and picks up the pax you used to fly. On the bright side it does free up time for picketing.

Since I was standing next to him on that day, I am pretty sure the VX MEC Chair understands this problem.

NotTellin
12-03-2016, 10:39 AM
This ex YXer echoes the no scope = no vote sentiment.

I can tell you from personal experience, and that WITH some semblance of a scope clause in force, that you do not want to experience a day when a RAH170(pick your CPA carrier) in your paint pulls up to the gates you used to fly out of and picks up the pax you used to fly. On the bright side it does free up time for picketing.

Since I was standing next to him on that day, I am pretty sure the VX MEC Chair understands this problem.

The VX MEC chairman has certainly has not forgotten that day. He's a good teacher too.

NO SCOPE = A NO VOTE!

ShyGuy
12-03-2016, 12:11 PM
The E175s are a game changer for the Alaska's regional airline operation. They could easily park the -700s/319s and replace those routes with E175s. That would allow more frequency and more ASMs for the Air Group and on paper can be shown as net growth.

IamAlaska
01-17-2017, 10:11 PM
Scope, limiting seats to 76 or less, gross takeoff weight and restricting the number of those aircraft is a must. If the company wants more or wants bigger regional jets, they can bring them on property and our guys can fly them...like Delta is doing with the C-series and 717. One of the reasons they outsource small jet flying is so they can mistreat/under pay pilots and put wage pressure on mainline. Unacceptable! We have one of the highest profit margins in the industry...time to treat (pay) pilots flying under the Alaska banner like professionals.

IamAlaska
01-17-2017, 10:16 PM
As far as pay goes, nothing less than Delta 737/A320 payrates is acceptable. Like I previously stated, we have one of the highest net profit margins in the industry. If management really did their homework on this acquisition, those numbers should only get better.

IamAlaska
01-17-2017, 10:24 PM
A 3% bump in 401k to 16.5% for the straight 401k guys. I am a hybrid guy (have half of my pension) and still think we screwed the newbies by cutting them out of the pension. 😬

GreatBigSea
01-18-2017, 05:00 AM
Free Swedish massages in all crew bases, and if we have to extend a $500 dollar gift card to the best steak house in the city we overnight at.

gazoo34
01-18-2017, 01:23 PM
A 3% bump in 401k to 16.5% for the straight 401k guys. I am a hybrid guy (have half of my pension) and still think we screwed the newbies by cutting them out of the pension. 😬

Sounds like a baby boomer pilot group decided like the machinists at Boeing that making sure they got there pay was the right thing to do, sacrifice the young for personal gain “all for me and everything just for me."

EskimoJoe
01-19-2017, 05:30 AM
Sounds like a baby boomer pilot group decided like the machinists at Boeing that making sure they got there pay was the right thing to do, sacrifice the young for personal gain “all for me and everything just for me."
Right. Go ask the pilots of United, Delta, and US Airways how their pensions are doing. I'm happy to pull my cash away from "Management" every two weeks. That way, if it all gets ****ed away, I at least know who to blame.

gazoo34
01-19-2017, 08:47 AM
Right. Go ask the pilots of United, Delta, and US Airways how their pensions are doing. I'm happy to pull my cash away from "Management" every two weeks. That way, if it all gets ****ed away, I at least know who to blame.

I understand the loss of a pension but why not get yours AND keep it for the newbies? It was the wrong thing to negotiate away.

busbusbaby
01-21-2017, 11:51 AM
Right. Go ask the pilots of United, Delta, and US Airways how their pensions are doing. I'm happy to pull my cash away from "Management" every two weeks. That way, if it all gets ****ed away, I at least know who to blame.

Amen Brother, no pgb and .10 on the dollar, no greedy hands other than yours on the money

IamAlaska
01-23-2017, 01:21 AM
You guys don't understand. I retain half of my pension for what amounts to 3% less in my 401k. Translation: The company puts 10% in my 401k and I still get half of my pension. That's why I say, we should make good with the newbies and Virgin folks.

Klsytakesit
02-04-2017, 12:30 AM
Appears that the JCBA is headed to arbitration....Management has snubbed the negotiators at 2 of the sessions so far.....

Work2much
02-04-2017, 05:55 AM
Appears that the JCBA is headed to arbitration....Management has snubbed the negotiators at 2 of the sessions so far.....

Snubbed meaning they won't show up or that they are totally dismissing anything the union brings to the table? Arbitration so soon?

WhenPigsFLy
02-06-2017, 06:40 AM
Getting ready for big scope gives not only to RJs but to Air Mexico flying your paxs south of the border. You MEC has been played.

Mudhen200
02-06-2017, 08:44 AM
The company came in with "working documents" rather than formal proposals. Under the TPA rules, "working documents" can't be shared with the pilot group or the arbitrator. These documents were designed to make it look like the sky was falling in the industry as well as within the company. The company put a stake in the ground as far away from reality / market based wages as possible. ALPA looked at the fantasy and with nothing else to say or do they called the meeting over in about an hour. The VP of labor at the table representing the company seems to be the problem. He can't find his butt with both hands and a map. I bet we will see Ben or Brad get in the game over the next few weeks and get it done in a timely manor. If not, we will win later through arbitration. Brad's not stupid. He knows he has a loosing hand. He knows what he is going to have to do. We just need to play the game for a little while to get there.

CassinAK
02-07-2017, 10:58 AM
The company came in with "working documents" rather than formal proposals. Under the TPA rules, "working documents" can't be shared with the pilot group or the arbitrator. These documents were designed to make it look like the sky was falling in the industry as well as within the company. The company put a stake in the ground as far away from reality / market based wages as possible. ALPA looked at the fantasy and with nothing else to say or do they called the meeting over in about an hour. The VP of labor at the table representing the company seems to be the problem. He can't find his butt with both hands and a map. I bet we will see Ben or Brad get in the game over the next few weeks and get it done in a timely manor. If not, we will win later through arbitration. Brad's not stupid. He knows he has a loosing hand. He knows what he is going to have to do. We just need to play the game for a little while to get there.



I figured it would start off this way. Look at how long the TPA took to negotiate. It wasn't till the very last minute that an agreement was made.

Ready Safe.....Go

AltoCumulus
02-07-2017, 07:07 PM
We keep getting played over and over. Negotiating is about various kinds of leverage with time being one of them. The company has zero incentive to get a deal done until the very last possible minute. They will stall stall stall until other needs (the sing cert in this case). Then they will start negotiating, but by then we will have already made 6 months worth of concessions...just like the TPA. Funny how that got resolved just as the deal was closing. Coincidence? I think not.

Ispeakjive
02-07-2017, 11:42 PM
We keep getting played over and over. Negotiating is about various kinds of leverage with time being one of them. The company has zero incentive to get a deal done until the very last possible minute. They will stall stall stall until other needs (the sing cert in this case). Then they will start negotiating, but by then we will have already made 6 months worth of concessions...just like the TPA. Funny how that got resolved just as the deal was closing. Coincidence? I think not.

I would not expect business leaders to commit to ANYTHING until the last possible moment. Why give away anything for free? They can't go to their BOD and say, "Yes, we gave the pilots everything they asked for on the first meeting". If it goes to arbitration because management was being stubborn, then management can declare victory to their investors because mgmnt never caved. Never mind that arbitration might produce the best numbers for us pilots, mgmnt will spin it in such a way that keeps them sparkly clean.

gazoo34
02-09-2017, 11:22 AM
February 8, 2017
"Alaska Air reported its fourth quarter and full year 2016 results, with net profit falling in both periods."

In the quarter to end December 2016, net income fell 40 percent to USD$114 million, with operating revenue up 11 percent at $1.52 billion, but expenses were up 14 percent to $1.28 billion.

Major cost increases were wages and benefits, up 13 percent, and aircraft fuel costs which rose 12 percent in the quarter.

Alaska Air Group carried 8.75 million passengers in Q4, a 10.4 percent increase from the prior year period.

Traffic in revenue passenger miles rose 13.1 percent on an ASM (available seat miles) capacity increase of 10.3 percent. Load factor came in at 84.5 percent, a 2 percentage point increase.

For the full year 2016, net income dropped 4 percent to $814 million on an operating revenue increase of 6 percent at $5.93 billion. Expenses came in at $4.58 billion, a 7 percent rise.

Alaska Air spent $123 million less on fuel and hedging costs in 2016, a 13 percent drop to $831 million, but wages grew 10 percent to $1.38 billion.

The group flew 34.3 million passengers during the year, a 7.5 percent increase from 2015. The takeover of Virgin America on December 14 accounted for only a negligible increase in passengers carried.

“2016 was an incredible year for Alaska in almost every way, and we are even more excited as we look forward to 2017 and beyond,” Alaska Air chief executive Brad Tilden said in a statement.

During the year, Alaska Air added 19 Boeing 737-900ERs to its fleet, bringing the total to 155 aircraft. Virgin America operated 63 aircraft at the end of 2016.



You don’t even have to be there just read the quarterly reports to figure out ALK is negotiating with pilots.
"Major cost increases were wages and benefits, up 13 percent, and aircraft fuel costs which rose 12 percent in the quarter."

IamAlaska
02-10-2017, 11:44 PM
When I feel like I am being taken advantage of by my company, I lose my enthusiasm. When I lose my enthusiasm, I get tired. When I get tired, I stop doing all the "little things" to help out, like granting Flight Duty Period extensions.

Klsytakesit
02-11-2017, 12:29 AM
We could dream that extensions would end, that we would all just fly 75, that picking up premium/ open-time would end, that we would disconnect from text notification etc..... but it wont happen...we are too greedy, too selfish and too egotistical to do anything to help our own cause....Pathetic really

PNWFlyer
02-11-2017, 06:53 PM
We could dream that extensions would end, that we would all just fly 75, that picking up premium/ open-time would end, that we would disconnect from text notification etc..... but it wont happen...we are too greedy, too selfish and too egotistical to do anything to help our own cause....Pathetic really

Who got the pay raises?

GearBoy
02-24-2017, 06:02 AM
It's all business.

Along those lines, the Company actions are predictable.

The question is whether the Union is finally going to grow a pair. One can only hope. I fully expect and hope for arbitration. I do not want the usual suspects voting on my pay, again. I also want transparency from the Union. I don't want to find out the Union proposal was too low after ther Arbitrator renders a decision.

I think you're right about the Company timeline. It'll be as late as possible for the reasons you mentioned and more. They have nothing to lose, everything to gain.

I expect numerous plays from the past, from the Company playbook, to include an 11th-hour offer in lieu of Arbitration and a white night to ride in to save the day, all things from the past. They might even offer a sacraficial lamb, Hornebrook or the VP of Employee/Labor.

Aslo, don't forget. The Mechanics have yet to vote on their TA. I don't expect the company to give anything that can be disclosed until after the mechanics vote.



Also as an aside, don't forget. The mechanics have

GearBoy
02-24-2017, 07:51 AM
It's all business.

Along those lines, the Company actions are predictable.

The question is whether the Union is finally going to grow a pair. One can only hope. By Union, I mean not only the MEC and committes, but the line pilots.

I fully expect and hope for arbitration. I do not want the usual pu$$ies, dweebs, geeks, nerds and 92-percenters voting on my pay, yet again. I also want transparency from the Union. I don't want to find out the Union proposal was too low, after ther Arbitrator renders a decision.

I think you're right about the Company timeline. It'll be as late as possible for the reasons you mentioned and more. They have nothing to lose, everything to gain.

I expect numerous plays from the Company playbook. After all, they have worked well in past negotiations. The Company is just better at the process. Past performance and past results speak for themselves.

I could foresee an 11th-hour offer in lieu of Arbitration and or a white night could ride in to save the day. They might even offer a sacraficial lamb, Hornibrook or the VP of Employee/Labor, as a show of supposed good faith and a fresh start.

Whatever the play, don't sell either Uncle Brad or Uncle Benito short. They didn't rise to their lofty positions by being soft. Despite what some pilots believe, Brad is not that nice guy. Whether he does his own dirty work he gets somebody else to do the dirty work, the end results are the same.

Aslo, as far as "working documents" go, don't forget that the Mechanics have yet to vote on their TA which includes a small double-digit raise, I believe 17%. I am not sure on the exact percentage. It really doesn't matter with respect to the point that I am trying to make. Rhetorically and hypothetically, what would happen to the Mechanics' TA if it were disclosed that the Company offered the pilots more than that? I don't expect the company to offer anything formal to the pilots until after the mechanics have voted on/passed their TA. Bottom line, they don't have to-

OCCP
02-24-2017, 03:29 PM
From the latest email it sounds like the company wasted the JNC's time.....again



I

Arctichicken
02-24-2017, 07:09 PM
At least the union has a good relationship with the company.
Well, that was a short meeting...where we going for drinks guys?

GearBoy
02-25-2017, 08:47 AM
After the latest JNC Ledger, bring on the Mediator !!!

interestingly, on-time is at 86.2%

Mea25000
02-25-2017, 03:07 PM
Once the MXE deals is signed the negotiation path will change rather quickly. If not we will be heading to arbitration in 90 days. We are still dealing with managements "B" team. When Brad actually attends a meeting we might finally see a real offer. Right now it's games and showmanship... R-E-L-A-X this deal will get done on Boards timeline, not the unions.

stickpusher
03-07-2017, 03:27 AM
We could dream that extensions would end, that we would all just fly 75, that picking up premium/ open-time would end, that we would disconnect from text notification etc..... but it wont happen...we are too greedy, too selfish and too egotistical to do anything to help our own cause....Pathetic really

It always amazes me (not really) how personal greed takes over in these situations. At my airline we had 80 different pilots accept recall in 33 days during section six....the pilot group has 680 pilots....guess it's the same everywhere unfortunately.

PressOff
03-07-2017, 09:17 AM
As someone interested in Alaska, what is text notification? ACARS?

Mea25000
03-07-2017, 02:58 PM
AS has not met on time #s for three straight months. March will be the fourth. This is the worst stretch in 7 years I believe. Most people are once again only doing their job, we are no longer carrying management. I am confident most are going to take advantage of this summer and spend more time with family and friends. JD power #10 will not happen, congratulations Delta on your award this year!

Mea25000
03-07-2017, 02:59 PM
No text is actually texts sent out by the company of trips that need pilots both at straight pay and 1.5 pay

Work2much
03-09-2017, 06:13 AM
Major expansion: Alaska Air adds 13 routes from Bay Area (http://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/flights/todayinthesky/2017/03/09/major-expansion-alaska-air-adds-13-routes-bay-area/98944842/)

38% of these new routes are being flown by "regional affiliates". Come on! Scope has GOT to be a priority in this new contract. How likely is it that Alaska pilots will actually do something about scope this time around?

GreatBigSea
03-09-2017, 06:58 AM
Major expansion: Alaska Air adds 13 routes from Bay Area (http://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/flights/todayinthesky/2017/03/09/major-expansion-alaska-air-adds-13-routes-bay-area/98944842/)

38% of these new routes are being flown by "regional affiliates". Come on! Scope has GOT to be a priority in this new contract. How likely is it that Alaska pilots will actually do something about scope this time around?

Agreed. The reason it's 38% and not greater is due to AAG reducing the overlap of VX and AS flights over certain destinations (SFO - SEA, SFO - PDX, etc). VX will then have airframes to spare..

Klsytakesit
03-11-2017, 06:24 PM
We will finally have a chance at scope in 2020 when we have full contract negotiations. Pretty sure the company knows that and will bolster the Horizon/Skywest flying for the next 3 years. They also know that no arbitrator will give us scope in the JCBA....Better late than never but only time will tell.....

waterboy
03-13-2017, 09:06 PM
We will finally have a chance at scope in 2020 when we have full contract negotiations. Pretty sure the company knows that and will bolster the Horizon/Skywest flying for the next 3 years. They also know that no arbitrator will give us scope in the JCBA....Better late than never but only time will tell.....

According to Ben M. at momentum, we don't need scope, we just have to trust them.....His exact words are "you just have to trust us"

Wynncore
03-14-2017, 06:20 AM
According to Ben M. at momentum, we don't need scope, we just have to trust them.....His exact words are "you just have to trust us"

If that isn't a major alarm I don't know what is.

Work2much
03-14-2017, 06:58 AM
According to Ben M. at momentum, we don't need scope, we just have to trust them.....His exact words are "you just have to trust us"

https://media.tenor.co/images/dcdb4bef5a422d4efb44577b6c33874a/tenor.gif

ShyGuy
03-14-2017, 07:45 AM
In my Momentum it was "scope has never saved mainline jobs."

Pogey Bait
03-14-2017, 06:21 PM
In my Momentum it was "scope has never saved mainline jobs."

Great! Problem solved. Bring it on.

busbusbaby
03-15-2017, 01:11 PM
Scope is part of the jcba will have it before 2020

Going2Baja
03-15-2017, 06:22 PM
Major expansion: Alaska Air adds 13 routes from Bay Area (http://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/flights/todayinthesky/2017/03/09/major-expansion-alaska-air-adds-13-routes-bay-area/98944842/)

38% of these new routes are being flown by "regional affiliates". Come on! Scope has GOT to be a priority in this new contract. How likely is it that Alaska pilots will actually do something about scope this time around?

This should really say Alaska Air Group, as The Eskimo isn't flying any of the routes. Also the further growth of VA is increasing their hiring. How's that SLI going to work? Get that SCOPE, and get it fast!!!

Baja.

Ispeakjive
03-15-2017, 07:07 PM
Ben,
"Trust us" is total BS.
If your intent is worth anything, you will put it in writing.

Going2Baja
03-16-2017, 09:22 PM
Ben,
"Trust us" is total BS.
If your intent is worth anything, you will put it in writing.

They were saying 'Trust Us' back in 2010. Trust what is in writing.

Baja.

Klsytakesit
03-17-2017, 07:23 PM
Scope is part of the jcba will have it before 2020

That will be up to an Arbitrator....Our view, Ben's view or somewhere in the middle.

EskimoJoe
03-18-2017, 08:33 AM
Scope is part of the jcba will have it before 2020
Scope went to Arbitration here at Alaska in 2005. The Arbitrator refused to make a decision on it. I expect that will happen again.

busbusbaby
03-18-2017, 11:45 AM
Scope went to Arbitration here at Alaska in 2005. The Arbitrator refused to make a decision on it. I expect that will happen again.
From what I can find, it looks like one of yours (alpa) said they couldn't find an average on scope (code share) the arbitrator sent it back to the parties for negotiation.
https://casetext.com/case/air-line-pilots-association-v-alaska-airlines
If this come up again I bet our negotiators have different answer.

Ted Striker
06-12-2017, 03:05 AM
Does anyone have the JCBA timeline for arbitration? From arbitration to projected conclusion? Thanks.

Klsytakesit
06-12-2017, 12:32 PM
Does anyone have the JCBA timeline for arbitration? From arbitration to projected conclusion? Thanks.
Log into the MEC main page. It is there

Work2much
06-12-2017, 12:47 PM
Log into the MEC main page. It is there

what if we don't have access to the MEC web page.

OCCP
06-12-2017, 02:16 PM
If you are an ALPA member you should have access

Work2much
06-13-2017, 05:28 AM
If you are an ALPA member you should have access

Is it top secret info to those who aren't AS pilots? I don't have access to your MEC page since I"m not an AS pilot.

PNWFlyer
06-13-2017, 05:40 AM
Is it top secret info to those who aren't AS pilots? I don't have access to your MEC page since I"m not an AS pilot.

Allow me to quote Naughty By Nature,

If you ain't never been to the ghetto
Don't ever come to the ghetto
Cause you wouldn't understand the ghetto
So stay the **** out of the ghetto

OCCP
06-13-2017, 06:24 AM
Is it top secret info to those who aren't AS pilots? I don't have access to your MEC page since I"m not an AS pilot.



I assumed you were an AS pilot, sorry. If you don't work for either Alaska or Virgin, why are you constantly coming on here bashing me for my opinions on this company? You don't work here, you don't really qualify to comment on the issues we face!

MiLtoMajor123
06-13-2017, 09:32 AM
I assumed you were an AS pilot, sorry. If you don't work for either Alaska or Virgin, why are you constantly coming on here bashing me for my opinions on this company? You don't work here, you don't really qualify to comment on the issues we face!

Okay...I work for Alaska...can I bash you on your opinions of the company? ;):D:p I know the secret handshake and everything.

Work2much
06-13-2017, 09:52 AM
I assumed you were an AS pilot, sorry. If you don't work for either Alaska or Virgin, why are you constantly coming on here bashing me for my opinions on this company? You don't work here, you don't really qualify to comment on the issues we face!

Ready or not, here I come. I'm swimming in the pool so I'll be there soon. Therefore, I'm pretty interested on what's going on at the moment.

Holy bejesus, it's like pulling teeth to try and get the dates negations end and arbitration begins. Anyone know off the top of their heads because I can't log on to the MEC website.

OCCP
06-13-2017, 10:19 AM
Anyone can bash whoever they want but if you don't currently work for a company, why would you attack its current pilots? Especially when someone is in the pool.

If work2much is in the pool, then great, but to talk trash to the people he'll be swinging gear for one day is just goofy.

If I was in the pool at delta(which I'm not), I wouldn't be on a delta forum calling out their pilots for highlighting whatever bs goes on there.

You guys can attack me all you want, but what I've said is all true. Sometimes it hurts to come to grips with the fact that we are a bottom tier airline right now, hopefully it gets better. We shouldn't settle for less just because we are smaller, Miltomajor. We need to try to push the industry higher. It's better for all pilots if we do.

Mea25000
06-13-2017, 10:28 AM
Arbitration will be on August 28th
The awarded arbitration is to be out no later then October 11th

Mea25000
06-13-2017, 10:36 AM
We have only become a "bottom tier airline" for 8 months. Up to that point Delta was paying 217, SWA 216, and we are 216. Our 401k is twice VA's, most of us have some form of pension, our Medical and sick is drastically better, our pay is on average 20% higher. OC you live in a glass house. You are about to get a 40% pay increase on our backs. Show some respect and be thankful.

OCCP
06-13-2017, 11:18 AM
On your back? Riiight. That's not totally accurate.

Work2much
06-13-2017, 11:39 AM
Arbitration will be on August 28th
The awarded arbitration is to be out no later then October 11th

Thank you for the info!

Work2much
06-13-2017, 11:44 AM
Anyone can bash whoever they want but if you don't currently work for a company, why would you attack its current pilots? Especially when someone is in the pool.

If work2much is in the pool, then great, but to talk trash to the people he'll be swinging gear for one day is just goofy.

If I was in the pool at delta(which I'm not), I wouldn't be on a delta forum calling out their pilots for highlighting whatever bs goes on there.

You guys can attack me all you want, but what I've said is all true. Sometimes it hurts to come to grips with the fact that we are a bottom tier airline right now, hopefully it gets better. We shouldn't settle for less just because we are smaller, Miltomajor. We need to try to push the industry higher. It's better for all pilots if we do.

Oh geez :rolleyes: