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MartinBishop
09-05-2016, 12:13 PM
A good read for Labor Day!


https://mises.org/library/forgotten-facts-american-labor-history


Molon Labe
09-05-2016, 12:33 PM
Dear MartinBaker, why don't you just go to work for the national foundation for the right to work? It is or used to be in Lynchburg Virginia..You would like it there.....I have worked for 8 non-union operators and 2 union ones. As a working pilot, unions certainly aren't perfect but a totally non-union aviation operation really really sucks. Since it is quite obvious that you have never worked as a pilot, you wouldn't know this, and are therefore in your "cocoon of bliss"...And really like it there..If you want to be happy, go to work for an anti-union foundation where everyone thinks like you. Because If you fly for an airline you will be unhappy. We have by experience chosen unions, and will continue to do so.. Why do airlines have unions? Because they deserve them.

MartinBishop
09-05-2016, 12:41 PM
I am not anti-union, I am anti-forced unionism. Being required to pay dues to some union boss just to gain employment is coercion and is immoral.

I actually think the safety aspect of unionism is a good thing, and I would probably join one of my own free will. But it should be a choice, not a mandate.


gettinbumped
09-05-2016, 12:48 PM
I am not anti-union, I am anti-forced unionism. Being required to pay dues to some union boss just to gain employment is coercion and is immoral.

I actually think the safety aspect of unionism is a good thing, and I would probably join one of my own free will. But it should be a choice, not a mandate.

Since you aren't an airline pilot yet, you can choose to work for a non-union regional. Don't come to a major (particularly mine) and spew that crap. You don't have a right to speak for me. You want the union to do all the heavy lifting and you reap the benefits.... you just want me and my Union brothers and sisters to pay for it. That's not the way things work over here, so perhaps you would be happier just becoming a lifer at SkyWest. Of course, you DO realize that THEIR contract is essentially bought and paid for by Union Pilots at OTHER airlines through pattern bargaining, right?

You're welcome.

MartinBishop
09-05-2016, 02:51 PM
Since you aren't an airline pilot yet, you can choose to work for a non-union regional. Don't come to a major (particularly mine) and spew that crap. You don't have a right to speak for me. You want the union to do all the heavy lifting and you reap the benefits.... you just want me and my Union brothers and sisters to pay for it. That's not the way things work over here, so perhaps you would be happier just becoming a lifer at SkyWest. Of course, you DO realize that THEIR contract is essentially bought and paid for by Union Pilots at OTHER airlines through pattern bargaining, right?

You're welcome.

You apparently have a reading comprehension problem

The Juice
09-05-2016, 03:22 PM
I am not anti-union, I am anti-forced unionism. Being required to pay dues to some union boss just to gain employment is coercion and is immoral.

I actually think the safety aspect of unionism is a good thing, and I would probably join one of my own free will. But it should be a choice, not a mandate.

Get a clue and get your commercial rating before spouting on here to people who actually do this for a living.

Nobody is forced to join union. You are not forced to work anywhere, you make the choice. You may want to work at an airline that happens to be union and thats not just a coincidence, better places are union places. Once SKyWest gets their act together, its all union.

Once at the union airline, you are not forced to join a union, but you will have to pay a fee because like it or not, those wages and benefits were negotiated using union money and its union money that keeps the company honest with upholding the contract between bargaining cycles, in the forms of grievances and arbitration hearings.

And I guarantee you that you would be the first on the phone to the union when you misstep the company is wanting your behind in a sling.

I now forbid you form posting anything else in the Majors Forum until you have learned how to do a lazy 8 or a chandelle.

FreshWater
09-05-2016, 03:34 PM
I am not anti-union, I am anti-forced unionism. Being required to pay dues to some union boss just to gain employment is coercion and is immoral.

I actually think the safety aspect of unionism is a good thing, and I would probably join one of my own free will. But it should be a choice, not a mandate.

You are never forced to work and pay any dues at any time. Plenty of beautiful non union pilot jobs. Part 135, corporate via independent contracting, china contracts and the rest of southwest asia where unions are illegal, just like it was in the third Reich.

labbats
09-05-2016, 04:55 PM
Martin...

When you were a freshman did you go around telling the seniors "how it is"?

Why do you think this scenario is any different?

gettinbumped
09-05-2016, 05:37 PM
You apparently have a reading comprehension problem

No I don't. I've spent 25 years living the ramifications of airline life with and without unions. You don't want to be forced to join a union, and you resent being "coerced" into paying dues as a condition of employment. For 85 years pilots have been doing this dance, so I'm not sure why you think you've come along and built a better mousetrap. It wouldn't work if dues were "optional". Nobody LIKES putting in their 2%, but almost all of us understand why we do it and how important it is to have EVERYONE on board. Many of us understand it so well we donate MORE to ALPA PAC voluntarily. Consider it a price of admission, and if you don't like it, don't play. But when and if you finally get your licenses and ratings and make it to the airlines, take my advice and leave the independent contractor mindset at home. You won't find a lot of sympathetic ears.

As mentioned, lots of shops out there that you can exercise you desire not to be forced into paying union dues. Just remember that any gains you obtain at those places are most likely do to the pattern bargaining that's typical in this industry, and the vast majority of pilots who have fought for those gains have paid their dues while you have just enjoyed the spoils. I'm guessing you resent paying taxes on the money you earn at work, too. That's not "optional" either, so why not pick up that crusade?

MartinBishop
09-05-2016, 05:51 PM
No one should be forced to pay union dues as a condition of employment, it is unjust. That's not being anti-union, it is being pro-freedom. 80% of Americans agree, according to Gallup.

MartinBishop
09-05-2016, 05:54 PM
It wouldn't work if dues were "optional". That's actually not true. There are 26 states which are right to work and they get along just fine:



https://nrtwc.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/2016-Right-To-Work-26-States-Map.gif















As I have explained, I see lots of safety benefit to unions, and don't really have a problem being a member of one. I DO have a problem of being forced to be a member of one just to have employment.





.

CBreezy
09-05-2016, 06:09 PM
The Union under the RLA is the sole bargaining agent for your contract. You feel like you should be able to use the hard work of the Union and not pay dues for them to represent you and bargain on your behalf? That is what seems unfair and selfish. But that's not surprising coming from you.

labbats
09-05-2016, 06:39 PM
No one should be forced to pay union dues as a condition of employment, it is unjust. That's not being anti-union, it is being pro-freedom. 80% of Americans agree, according to Gallup.

How many of those Americans are working under the seniority system?

FreshWater
09-05-2016, 07:02 PM
I DO have a problem of being forced to be a member of one just to have employment.


You aren’t forced to work anywhere, nor pay any dues to anyone. Don’t like union shop, don’t work there that simple. The attempt to take away dues check off is the end around to end enforcement of union contracts. Hence the union itself.

The Juice
09-05-2016, 07:05 PM
Martin, you really are the worst on these forums, the worst.

A "know it all" who knows nothing.

CBreezy
09-05-2016, 07:19 PM
Martin, you really are the worst on these forums, the worst.

A "know it all" who knows nothing.

Now now. He studied it somewhere and had friends who worked at an ultra conservative think tank. You know, he's a legit instrument pilot who is mad about unions, mad about regulations, mad that he has to get a commercial rating to make money as a pilot. Basically, he's mad that we deny his god given aviation talent.

TSRAGR
09-05-2016, 07:27 PM
No one should be forced to pay union dues as a condition of employment, it is unjust. That's not being anti-union, it is being pro-freedom. 80% of Americans agree, according to Gallup.

MB, wow. I'm not w/a major (yet) and you can be damn sure, if i'm lucky enough to get picked up, the 1st day i'm eligible to be part of the union I'm all in.

"Forced", you're not forced to have a job, ask "O" and "H", they favor folks that will continue to bleed the working class to death and allow us the privilege of paying for it.

I don't want to lower myself to saying, 'get a life', but alas, I have...

MartinBishop
09-05-2016, 07:51 PM
You arenít forced to work anywhere, nor pay any dues to anyone. Donít like union shop, donít work there that simple. The attempt to take away dues check off is the end around to end enforcement of union contracts. Hence the union itself.

You do realize it is akin to slavery, right?

They take a % out of my check and don't give me a choice. They "represent" me and don't give me a choice.


Even if they do really good things and I benefit from them (which is often the case), I should still have a choice in the matter. Unless of course you hate freedom.

FreshWater
09-05-2016, 07:54 PM
You do realize it is akin to slavery, right?

They take a % out of my check and don't give me a choice. They "represent" me and don't give me a choice.


Even if they do really good things and I benefit from them (which is often the case), I should still have a choice in the matter. Unless of course you hate freedom.

You can exercise your freedom to not work at a union shop and not pay those dues.

Cruz5350
09-05-2016, 07:55 PM
You do realize it is akin to slavery, right?

They take a % out of my check and don't give me a choice. They "represent" me and don't give me a choice.


Even if they do really good things and I benefit from them (which is often the case), I should still have a choice in the matter. Unless of course you hate freedom.

Holy cow you really just said slavary is akin to joining a Union. I've seen some stuff on here but that tops everything.

NYC Pilot
09-05-2016, 08:12 PM
I think this Martin kid is mentally ill. He always posts weird stuff lol:p

gettinbumped
09-05-2016, 10:39 PM
You do realize it is akin to slavery, right?

They take a % out of my check and don't give me a choice. They "represent" me and don't give me a choice.


Even if they do really good things and I benefit from them (which is often the case), I should still have a choice in the matter. Unless of course you hate freedom.

You've completely derailed and now you're just embarrassing yourself. Slavery?!!! Getting hired at a union carrier is 100% YOUR choice. How many slaves to you think voluntarily applied for their "jobs"? You have zero working knowledge of this industry and unionism's role in it.

I've read enough of your drivel now to say this with confidence. Your arrogance and unwillingness to listen and learn is dangerous in the cockpit. Please reconsider your career choice. There will inevitably be a time in this industry when we again need to stick together as a group. Luckily, with the exception of a few hundred SCABS, my brother and sisters at my airline understand this.

I've wasted way too much time on this. But when EVERYONE who you might eventually be working with is telling you you're in the weeds, do you really assume that we are all wrong and you're somehow the enlightened one? That'll get you killed in an airplane someday. But what do I know, right?

BoilerUP
09-06-2016, 03:31 AM
You can exercise your freedom to not work at a union shop and not pay those dues.



Needs to be seen again...and read by OP this time.

Freedom is knowing the conditions of employment upon receiving an offer, and having the choice to accept or decline.

rightside02
09-06-2016, 05:04 AM
Boy that escalated quickly

DFWLECNOW
09-06-2016, 05:09 AM
You do realize it is akin to slavery, right?

They take a % out of my check and don't give me a choice. They "represent" me and don't give me a choice.


Even if they do really good things and I benefit from them (which is often the case), I should still have a choice in the matter. Unless of course you hate freedom.

Let me guess, you're one of these clowns who believes you don't have to pay federal taxes too because of 'freedom' and 'the constitution'? Get a clue pal!

cessnaxdriver
09-06-2016, 09:02 AM
I couldn't agree more ....
P
Holy cow you really just said slavary is akin to joining a Union. I've seen some stuff on here but that tops everything.

Triggs
09-11-2016, 05:12 PM
The Kid has no clue. Companies can still unionize in right to work states.



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