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View Full Version : Time to create a NAI blacklist?


9easy
12-05-2016, 10:15 PM
I think it's time for ALPA, IBT, SWAPA, APA, and whoever else to ban together and declare that working for Norwegian or any subsidiary is only a small step above crossing a picket line and will not be tolerated.

1. Lifetime Jumpseat ban and creation of a blackball list

2. To the extent possible, banned from being hired at any other US Airline for the rest of their careers

3. No zed agreements with any NAI subsidiary

Unlike most union efforts, most mainline airline management (except JetBlue) probably hate NAI as much as we do and could be quite agreeable to make this happen.


Beretta01
12-06-2016, 01:30 AM
Absolutely.

Braniff DC8
12-06-2016, 02:22 AM
I would be very careful with that. Keep in mind all the things U.S. carriers have done in the past. Bankruptcies, B Scale, Force Majure and dumping of pensions to the PBGC, Frank Lorenzo etc...

I would not pick a fight with NAI or any pilot's that may go there. It could bite you back.

God forbid more jobs and jumpseats in the U.S.

Will you be banning BMW and Airbus too? They have places in the U.S. and created jobs.


prex8390
12-06-2016, 03:30 AM
I would be very careful with that. Keep in mind all the things U.S. carriers have done in the past. Bankruptcies, B Scale, Force Majure and dumping of pensions to the PBGC, Frank Lorenzo etc...

I would not pick a fight with NAI or any pilot's that may go there. It could bite you back.

God forbid more jobs and jumpseats in the U.S.

Will you be banning BMW and Airbus too? They have places in the U.S. and created jobs.
Yeah but BMW typically uses Lufthansa, I heard they are pretty much the only reason they fly to CLT since they have a plant in the GSP area, I heard that flight goes out sometimes up 80 percent empty.

PotatoChip
12-06-2016, 04:03 AM
I think it's time for ALPA, IBT, SWAPA, APA, and whoever else to ban together and declare that working for Norwegian or any subsidiary is only a small step above crossing a picket line....

This is wildly inaccurate and exaggerated.

JamesNoBrakes
12-06-2016, 04:04 AM
Are you going to ban "regional pilots" too?

RI830
12-06-2016, 04:16 AM
Yeah but BMW typically uses Lufthansa, I heard they are pretty much the only reason they fly to CLT since they have a plant in the GSP area, I heard that flight goes out sometimes up 80 percent empty.

Same reasons AAL has a RDU-LHR flight. Drug/pharmaceuticals shipping. Cargo is BIG bucks

As for the ban.....tread lightly! Never know when NAI will buy someone out

tom11011
12-06-2016, 04:20 AM
I think it's time for ALPA, IBT, SWAPA, APA, and whoever else to ban together and declare that working for Norwegian or any subsidiary is only a small step above crossing a picket line and will not be tolerated.

1. Lifetime Jumpseat ban and creation of a blackball list

2. To the extent possible, banned from being hired at any other US Airline for the rest of their careers

3. No zed agreements with any NAI subsidiary

Unlike most union efforts, most mainline airline management (except JetBlue) probably hate NAI as much as we do and could be quite agreeable to make this happen.

Who will be the official keeper of the list?

sailingfun
12-06-2016, 04:25 AM
There is no justification for a list. The jumpseat issue takes care of itself. I don't believe a foreign carrier is eligible to ride the jumpseat or be in CASS regardless of where they are based.

captjns
12-06-2016, 04:31 AM
Rather than blacklisting and chest beating that will ultimately lead to nowhere, press your respective carriers to step up to plate. Demand product improvement. Demand your fellow crewmembers look the part as a crewmember, rather than Beaver from "Leave it to Beaver. Demand your cabin crew to provide a level of service above mediocrity.

Yeah, I know many complain about the passengers. But remember they're the sponsors who make your paychecks possible.

Now, NAI is not subsidized. They charge low fares. They provide a full "ala carte service" to their passengers. Their customers know about bag charges, exit row seating charges, food and grog charges. For all I know, they'd probably charge for the air their passsengers breath. The home teams do the same but at a fare much greater. That said, whats the incentive for the consumer?

Now for the pilots. Most who beat their chests about blacklisting are currently employed with their "dream jobs". How about those who are unsuccessful? Where do they go? Start at the regionals?

Now for the reality check. Not too many U.S. Citizens have the EASA license. Those that do are because they were or are currently employed in Euroland, studied and obtained a JAR license and converted to an EASA license. Take a minimal percentage of those who want to continue to fly for a Euro Carrier, but based in the U.S. How many do you think are willing to fulfill the requirement of a training bond? Jump seat? Do you really think a crewmember needs to jump seat from FLL to PBI? Get real.

One step above crossing a picket line... Drama Queen.

The only enemy in your back yard is your own company for selling inferior products demanding premium prices. They are the ones out sourcing international flying under the guise of "code sharing".

webecheck
12-06-2016, 04:49 AM
So what should the collective union opinion be towards the companies, and their employees, who make the NAI/ME3 threat truly a threat via codeshare? Aside from a few a routes that terminate at specific destinations, there isn't much of a threat without having an LCC/ULCC connecting those pax to/from their final US destination.

Furthermore, I'm shocked at the lack of discussion on the JetBlue GAO scam so do people really care about this? If so, we are about to have a huge problem within ALPA.

gettinbumped
12-06-2016, 05:30 AM
Rather than blacklisting and chest beating that will ultimately lead to nowhere, press your respective carriers to step up to plate. Demand product improvement. Demand your fellow crewmembers look the part as a crewmember, rather than Beaver from "Leave it to Beaver. Demand your cabin crew to provide a level of service above mediocrity.

Yeah, I know many complain about the passengers. But remember they're the sponsors who make your paychecks possible.

Now, NAI is not subsidized. They charge low fares. They provide a full "ala carte service" to their passengers. Their customers know about bag charges, exit row seating charges, food and grog charges. For all I know, they'd probably charge for the air their passsengers breath. The home teams do the same but at a fare much greater. That said, whats the incentive for the consumer?

Now for the pilots. Most who beat their chests about blacklisting are currently employed with their "dream jobs". How about those who are unsuccessful? Where do they go? Start at the regionals?

Now for the reality check. Not too many U.S. Citizens have the EASA license. Those that do are because they were or are currently employed in Euroland, studied and obtained a JAR license and converted to an EASA license. Take a minimal percentage of those who want to continue to fly for a Euro Carrier, but based in the U.S. How many do you think are willing to fulfill the requirement of a training bond? Jump seat? Do you really think a crewmember needs to jump seat from FLL to PBI? Get real.

One step above crossing a picket line... Drama Queen.

The only enemy in your back yard is your own company for selling inferior products demanding premium prices. They are the ones out sourcing international flying under the guise of "code sharing".

Yawn. You were (or are) a Ryanair pilot, correct? Perhaps you see this as your ticket to come back to the States and therefore want to ensure that you have a soft landing. Please don't preach to me about "product" when you worked for a guy who would love to have passengers standing up and using pay toilets. Sure you can get the masses in the door by charging $9 for a seat and then nickeling them for everything but the air they breath while and funding it on the backs of your crew. But don't suggest that the US Airlines offer an inferior product to THAT. The big 3 have been investing BILLIONS in airplane, product, and service improvements. I've flown on Norwegian. Don't pretend it's some nirvana of value for the customer. Same here in the USA. I've flown Spirit, and when you add up the extras for bags and a seat that won't break my back the charge is the same as any other airline. The experience again isn't anything to hold up as a gold standard.

What this is about is a fair playing field. If Norwegian wants to fly to the US, AWESOME! But they should do it with crews operating under Norwegian law. I'm appalled that Obama allowed this labor busting move, and I'm a staunch Democrat. I'm sorry you weren't able to land your dream job in the US (as you stated in another post), but don't expect the rest of us to accept you warmly in your new Norwegian uniform should you choose to go fly there. I would definitely move to the Stewart area. I grew up there. It's lovely. But Jumpseats are going to be hard to find, official ban or not.

Eaglepilot84
12-06-2016, 06:04 AM
It seems that it's just us pilots who are up in arms over this decision to allow NAI and not our respective airlines management team. Doesn't this concern anyone?

Bottom line is that this is going to happen at some point in the forceeable future. The strategy that needs to be taken is to adapt and overcome. Face it, US airlines charge more and provide a vastly inferior product then any other foreign airline. Rather then investing in their product to try and compete, they're buying back billions of dollars in stock. Why?

I hope NAI is stopped but I don't see that as a reality. Just as southwest, JetBlue, and spirit couldn't be stopped. It is going to force changes that if done properly, will allow the legacies to compete with the flag of convenience carriers and not affect our qol or pay. However, that requires serious investment in the product, of which I have yet to see.

captjns
12-06-2016, 06:26 AM
Yawn. You were (or are) a Ryanair pilot, correct? Perhaps you see this as your ticket to come back to the States and therefore want to ensure that you have a soft landing. Please don't preach to me about "product" when you worked for a guy who would love to have passengers standing up and using pay toilets. Sure you can get the masses in the door by charging $9 for a seat and then nickeling them for everything but the air they breath while and funding it on the backs of your crew. But don't suggest that the US Airlines offer an inferior product to THAT. The big 3 have been investing BILLIONS in airplane, product, and service improvements. I've flown on Norwegian. Don't pretend it's some nirvana of value for the customer. Same here in the USA. I've flown Spirit, and when you add up the extras for bags and a seat that won't break my back the charge is the same as any other airline. The experience again isn't anything to hold up as a gold standard.

What this is about is a fair playing field. If Norwegian wants to fly to the US, AWESOME! But they should do it with crews operating under Norwegian law. I'm appalled that Obama allowed this labor busting move, and I'm a staunch Democrat. I'm sorry you weren't able to land your dream job in the US (as you stated in another post), but don't expect the rest of us to accept you warmly in your new Norwegian uniform should you choose to go fly there. I would definitely move to the Stewart area. I grew up there. It's lovely. But Jumpseats are going to be hard to find, official ban or not.

Intreresting how the little gnome at FR was chastised by those in the industry... with charging for pre-boarding, food on board, checked bags. While, I don't condone MOL's disdain for his employees, I wish the FR direct employees took a stronger stance against MOL as pay, benefits, and T&C were eroded.

Oh... remind me... aren't DAL, AA, and UAL following the FR model? Even UAL has gon a step further towards the FR model with their "basic fare"... last to board, no assigned seating, one carry on, and it better fit under the seat, $$$$.

Anyway, for me... FR was a 4 1/2 year vacation around Euroland. 5 days on five days off. I did vow however, I'd never work for a carrier that did not have at least a business class section.

Yeah, the majority of expats need the $$$. The minority can pick and choose the locations where to live and fly for a few years, then move on to the next adventure with a trade off for salary.

Yeah, NAI ofers a soft landing spot for U.S. Citizens who made a life in Europe and other countries. NAI offers a free ride back across the Atlantic. It's also a good opportunity for those who want to live in base too. Contracts are negotiable. If they don't want to put up the $$$$ for the bond, then they wont fly for NAI... simple. If NAI is hard up for U.S. based pilots,then they'll waive the training bond.

In the early 2000's many "Legacy Pilots" took early retirement to preserve their accrued benefits before the airlines terminated their retirement plans. They weren't ready to hang up the goggles and went overseas.

Would be interested to know your situation, seniority, length of service. Have you experienced, furloughs, mergers, seat realignments because of seniority list integration. Did you lose your retirement benefits?

Grumble
12-06-2016, 10:16 PM
Lot of lecture from a guy that is willing to pay for his own recurrent training, on half the pay.

NEDude
12-07-2016, 07:53 AM
Great strategy: punish the pilots by denying them something they do not have anyway.

"Even though you can't ride in the jumpseat, we are going to ban you from the jumpseat as punishment. TAKE THAT!"

And you want to be taken seriously...

Smutter
12-07-2016, 08:41 AM
I would be very careful with that. Keep in mind all the things U.S. carriers have done in the past. Bankruptcies, B Scale, Force Majure and dumping of pensions to the PBGC, Frank Lorenzo etc...

I would not pick a fight with NAI or any pilot's that may go there. It could bite you back.

God forbid more jobs and jumpseats in the U.S.

Will you be banning BMW and Airbus too? They have places in the U.S. and created jobs.

Did you want to be first on the list

webecheck
12-07-2016, 09:50 AM
Great strategy: punish the pilots by denying them something they do not have anyway.

"Even though you can't ride in the jumpseat, we are going to ban you from the jumpseat as punishment. TAKE THAT!"

And you want to be taken seriously...

How would you go about getting your point across to fellow Americans who think employment within a foreign carrier's flag of convenience scheme, that could potentially decimate the US int'l aviation market, is a poor choice to make?

This is an easy problem to identify. History shows schemes like this are detrimental to US jobs. If you're a foreigner, you probably have no allegiance to this country. If you are a US citizen, where do your priorities lie? Employment within the US at any cost, or preserving the quality of life garnered from American jobs here?

I'm not attacking you, but these are very simple questions to answer and thus highlight your true feelings on the issue. 9easy may not have all the answers, but its clear he/she cares about American jobs and loyalty to his countrymen. NAI isn't going to create new jobs, its going to shift the jobs from one employer to another.

To be an American and argue in defense of employment with NAI is a clear testament to your belief that employment within the US at a reputable carrier will not happen for you, and thus you care more about your own personal quality of life regardless of any impact your decision may have on your peers and countrymen.

What's really funny is the number of expats now wanting employment from a legacy so they can leave their ME3 employer. Oh the irony.

NEDude
12-07-2016, 10:21 AM
How would you go about getting your point across to fellow Americans who think employment within a foreign carrier's flag of convenience scheme, that could potentially decimate the US int'l aviation market, is a poor choice to make?

This is an easy problem to identify. History shows schemes like this are detrimental to US jobs. If you're a foreigner, you probably have no allegiance to this country. If you are a US citizen, where do your priorities lie? Employment within the US at any cost, or preserving the quality of life garnered from American jobs here?

I'm not attacking you, but these are very simple questions to answer and thus highlight your true feelings on the issue. 9easy may not have all the answers, but its clear he/she cares about American jobs and loyalty to his countrymen. NAI isn't going to create new jobs, its going to shift the jobs from one employer to another.

To be an American and argue in defense of employment with NAI is a clear testament to your belief that employment within the US at a reputable carrier will not happen for you, and thus you care more about your own personal quality of life regardless of any impact your decision may have on your peers and countrymen.

What's really funny is the number of expats now wanting employment from a legacy so they can leave their ME3 employer. Oh the irony.

Your strategy for getting your point across would be better served by doing something that might actually affect them. NAI pilots will not have any access to the jumpseat anyway. NAI is a foreign airline and obviously will not be part of CASS. So the strategy of denying them jumpseats is just a silly waste of time. It is almost as silly as telling you that in order to punish you, I am not going to let you ride on the next Space Shuttle flight.

That is the point I was making.

The argument that a certain carrier will drag down the profession has been going on since the dawn of the de-regulation. Even before in fact. Southwest was the coming of the anti-Christ at one point. So was PeoplExpress. America West, Frontier (the second version), Vanguard, new Midway, JetBlue, and Virgin America all were public enemy number 1 at one point in time as well. Virtually every regional airline had its turn at being the worst place on earth for the profession. It just gets tiring hearing all of the sky is falling predictions.

Vilifying certain groups has gotten tiring as well because we all know that at some point the villains will be part of the "in group". Even the former CAL scabs have been welcomed back into the ALPA fold. Does anyone even care about pilots who flew for PeoplExpress? How about the guys who went to Freedom Air 15 years ago? Not even a decade ago ALPA was fighting vigorously against Virgin America and message boards proclaimed the Virgin pilots as bottom feeders. Now ALPA proudly counts the pilots of Virgin America as its members, happily cashing their dues checks each month.

If a guy wants to go to Norwegian then so what? In ten years no one will bat an eye at Norwegian and some other airline will be the new boogeyman who will destroy everyone's career, probably Virgin America #2 now that the VX-AK merger has been approved. It has been going on for over 40 years now.

As to one other point - You are correct that a career at a "reputable" US carrier will most definitely not happen for me. I am a dual US and EU citizen and happily reside on the eastern side of the Atlantic. I already have a nice job with a small European charter airline and I am quite content to stay right where I am. But I have seen the effect that Norwegian has had on my salary because my pay and work schedule has improved in order to try and stem the tide of pilots going to Norwegian. So I am quite happy to see Norwegian hiring. If regional guys and and guys who fly carriers like Amerijet and Miami Air start applying to Norwegian, they might see some pay increases as well. We all focus on the possibility of it dragging down the top, but there is also a good chance of it raise the bottom as well.

webecheck
12-07-2016, 10:41 AM
NEDude,

We already discussed that CASS access won't happen so no need to discuss anymore. My question more specifically though, was what you would do to get your point across. I think a lifetime ban from joining an ALPA carrier will make an impact. If NAI never materializes to be a threat, then those who go will spend their career with subpar wages. When you look at the new legacy pay scales and work rules, every pilot on the planet wants to be a part of that.

You listed several US carriers that helped transform the market. Jobs shifted from one employer to another, but they remained in US. The issue here is that these jobs will now leave the US and go overseas. That's the BIG difference!

Full disclosure for the board....Do you have an app in with NAI, have you already been hired, or is it that you plan to apply soon?

NEDude
12-07-2016, 11:48 AM
NEDude,

We already discussed that CASS access won't happen so no need to discuss anymore. My question more specifically though, was what you would do to get your point across. I think a lifetime ban from joining an ALPA carrier will make an impact. If NAI never materializes to be a threat, then those who go will spend their career with subpar wages. When you look at the new legacy pay scales and work rules, every pilot on the planet wants to be a part of that.

You listed several US carriers that helped transform the market. Jobs shifted from one employer to another, but they remained in US. The issue here is that these jobs will now leave the US and go overseas. That's the BIG difference!

Full disclosure for the board....Do you have an app in with NAI, have you already been hired, or is it that you plan to apply soon?

I gave you my full disclosure in my last post:
"I already have a nice job with a small European charter airline and I am quite content to stay right where I am. But I have seen the effect that Norwegian has had on my salary because my pay and work schedule has improved in order to try and stem the tide of pilots going to Norwegian. So I am quite happy to see Norwegian hiring."

Regarding the pilots who go to Norwegian having to spend their career with subpar wages: Do you really think things will stay exactly as they are now forever? If so you have not been in the industry very long. Did the pilots who went to PeoplExpress in the 1980s suffer from subpar wages for their entire careers? Some of those guys are now senior United Captains in case you were not aware (PeoplExpress bought by Continental...Continental merged with United). Southwest used to have very subpar wages, but spent much of the 2000s and early 2010s as the best paying U.S. passenger airline.

Lastly, how do you see NAI jobs based in FLL as going "overseas"? Did Ft Lauderdale secede from the union and I miss it?

webecheck
12-07-2016, 01:11 PM
Come on man, if NAI isn't what it's accused of being, why did NAS create them in the first place?...Wouldn't be so much of an uproar on both sides of the pond if it was legit.

The company jobs which aren't required to turn the plane and live at the base will leave. Additionally, the profit from said operations will no longer belong to and be reinvested in the US economy. What does get reinvested will be minimal compared to what it would have been had a US company transported those pax.

NAI and ME3 fit the Trump narrative. I'll be shocked if he doesn't address this.

Braniff DC8
12-07-2016, 06:34 PM
This is getting silly now. I guess all those code shares the major U.S. carriers signed off on, with the pilot's endoresement, is ok but NAI is wrong??? Really now? Sorry but that is utter hypocricy and nonsense. You can't, you won't, have it both ways. I am with NEdude here. I always love how jumpseats get used as a tool to punish people. It's why a lot of airlines keep taking it out of the Captains hands.

Stop making empty threats because threats can go both ways. Will you also be threatening customers/passengers that choose to fly on NAI? If they connect to say a DAL flight will you be denying them? NO you won't, you would be fired. The same as if JetBlue denied an Aer Lingus pax. So, you'll use the jumpseat, which you know can't happen anyway, as a tool/threat.

I'm surprised at all this and am dissappointed in my American brothers for such things.

Probe
12-07-2016, 08:41 PM
ALPA in the 90's led the charge to keep RJ's from mainline carriers. Who did this benefit? The major airlines, and ALPA's coffers.

We ended up outsourcing 40% of our jobs to airlines that were basically crew leasing companies, who then bid their work out to the lowest bidder.

Were pilots that went to fly RJ's scabs? It could be argued that they took our mainline jobs. Unfortunately, this happened with the support and concurrence of ALPA.

I don't like NAI, and I hope they eventually get rejected. But their employees are just folks looking for work. Just like the underpaid crews that work at Mesa.

NEDude
12-08-2016, 09:03 PM
Come on man, if NAI isn't what it's accused of being, why did NAS create them in the first place?...Wouldn't be so much of an uproar on both sides of the pond if it was legit.

The company jobs which aren't required to turn the plane and live at the base will leave. Additionally, the profit from said operations will no longer belong to and be reinvested in the US economy. What does get reinvested will be minimal compared to what it would have been had a US company transported those pax.

NAI and ME3 fit the Trump narrative. I'll be shocked if he doesn't address this.

It is very simple once you get past the conspiracy theory stuff:

It is called aircraft utilisation. Norway does not have open skies treaties with much of the world, but it is part of the US-EU Open Skies treaty. So an aircraft on the Norwegian AOC can only fly to the US and back and limited by slot times at US Airports, which is exactly what they have been doing for a few years. By establishing an EU AOC, which they are allowed to do under the European Economic Area agreement, they could not only take advantage of the EU-US treaty, but all the other EU treaties. So an aircraft on the NAI AOC can now be utilised to fly to the United States and back, and then fly on to South Africa, or Asia, on a short turnaround and thus be better utilised. That is why NAI was created.

The Norwegian AOC was approved by the DOT several years ago without any fanfare. The pilots based in Bangkok, all of the contracts the ALPA is up in arms about, are all assigned to the long approved Norwegian AOC. In other words, if you have not picked up on it yet...Norwegian did not require NAI, or Ireland, to "lower labour standards". Everything ALPA is accusing them of having done, was done through the Norwegian AOC and was in full compliance with Norwegian labour law. They did not need Ireland to establish contracts, or a Bangkok base, as this was ALREADY DONE with the approved Norwegian AOC.

So even if you choose to ignore the fact that Ireland does comply with EU labour laws and is a party to the treaty, none of that matters because everything ALPA is up in arms about was already done with long approved Norwegian AOC and in full compliance with Norwegian law. They have not used any provision or opportunity created by the Open Skies treaty to "lower labour standards". None of what they have done was made possible by an opportunity created by the US-EU Open Skies Treaty. At the absolute worst, they have used provisions or opportunities created by other treaties to which the US has not part of to "lower labour standards" with NAI.

animation
12-09-2016, 12:04 AM
ALPA in the 90's led the charge to keep RJ's from mainline carriers. Who did this benefit? The major airlines, and ALPA's coffers.

We ended up outsourcing 40% of our jobs to airlines that were basically crew leasing companies, who then bid their work out to the lowest bidder.

Were pilots that went to fly RJ's scabs? It could be argued that they took our mainline jobs. Unfortunately, this happened with the support and concurrence of ALPA.

I don't like NAI, and I hope they eventually get rejected. But their employees are just folks looking for work. Just like the underpaid crews that work at Mesa.

Plain and simple

sweetholyjesus
12-09-2016, 02:23 AM
ALPA in the 90's led the charge to keep RJ's from mainline carriers. Who did this benefit? The major airlines, and ALPA's coffers.

We ended up outsourcing 40% of our jobs to airlines that were basically crew leasing companies, who then bid their work out to the lowest bidder.

Were pilots that went to fly RJ's scabs? It could be argued that they took our mainline jobs. Unfortunately, this happened with the support and concurrence of ALPA.

I don't like NAI, and I hope they eventually get rejected. But their employees are just folks looking for work. Just like the underpaid crews that work at Mesa.
Well said. No one seemed to care about their countrymens' careers when pilots voted scope away to pad their own paychecks. I'm sure these same outraged pilots would support NAI in a heartbeat if there was a nickle in it for them..

blockplus
12-09-2016, 05:13 AM
Umm. Pilots who fly nai aircraft dont work for nai. They arent nai employees they have no rights from nai. They work for a company called OSM aviation and operate according to them. It's like a mesa pilot flying a ual aircraft and saying they work for United.

NEDude
12-09-2016, 06:23 AM
Umm. Pilots who fly nai aircraft dont work for nai. They arent nai employees they have no rights from nai. They work for a company called OSM aviation and operate according to them. It's like a mesa pilot flying a ual aircraft and saying they work for United.

Or they work for Global Crew UK LTD.

CousinEddie
12-09-2016, 11:39 AM
Or they work for Global Crew UK LTD.

Or Under-Cutters Pizza?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdfztAY3qoU

Half wing
12-11-2016, 06:58 PM
Well said. No one seemed to care about their countrymens' careers when pilots voted scope away to pad their own paychecks. I'm sure these same outraged pilots would support NAI in a heartbeat if there was a nickle in it for them..

The bulk of scope losses occurred in bankruptcy court, not voted on by pilots. US regional pilots deserve seats in mainline cockpits one day. Never NAI pilots who don't mind undermining US Aviation jobs. Of course the Euro girls on here love NAI because they don't give a crap about America.

Grumble
12-13-2016, 08:58 AM
I gave you my full disclosure in my last post:
"I already have a nice job with a small European charter airline and I am quite content to stay right where I am. But I have seen the effect that Norwegian has had on my salary because my pay and work schedule has improved in order to try and stem the tide of pilots going to Norwegian. So I am quite happy to see Norwegian hiring."

Regarding the pilots who go to Norwegian having to spend their career with subpar wages: Do you really think things will stay exactly as they are now forever? If so you have not been in the industry very long. Did the pilots who went to PeoplExpress in the 1980s suffer from subpar wages for their entire careers? Some of those guys are now senior United Captains in case you were not aware (PeoplExpress bought by Continental...Continental merged with United). Southwest used to have very subpar wages, but spent much of the 2000s and early 2010s as the best paying U.S. passenger airline.

Lastly, how do you see NAI jobs based in FLL as going "overseas"? Did Ft Lauderdale secede from the union and I miss it?

You're missing one key point in that comparison. Those are all union jobs.

An NAI pilot is employed as an independent contractor. When your contract is up, you're gone or you can reapply/renew. Been there 5 years and expecting a raise? How about no, we have plenty of applicants to replace you. We'll renew your contract at the current rate, maybe even lower, or just not at all. All those sick calls you took from only having 10 days a month off? Yeah we're not interested in renewing your contract.

This is why they're structured the way the are. They will control their labor costs as long as there are jackass *****s willing to sell out the profession, and themselves. Your comparison does not apply.

PotatoChip
12-13-2016, 10:31 AM
You're missing one key point in that comparison. Those are all union jobs.



PeopleExpress was unionized???

Captainbfv
12-13-2016, 11:44 AM
I think it's time for ALPA, IBT, SWAPA, APA, and whoever else to ban together and declare that working for Norwegian or any subsidiary is only a small step above crossing a picket line and will not be tolerated.



1. Lifetime Jumpseat ban and creation of a blackball list



2. To the extent possible, banned from being hired at any other US Airline for the rest of their careers



3. No zed agreements with any NAI subsidiary



Unlike most union efforts, most mainline airline management (except JetBlue) probably hate NAI as much as we do and could be quite agreeable to make this happen.



What a moronic thing to say or even recommend.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Grumble
12-13-2016, 05:26 PM
PeopleExpress was unionized???

Once merged with CAL. Point remains the same, they weren't independant contractors. They were employees with the ability to collectively bargain if they sought to however. Something that can't be done at NAI (yet), thus don't plan on wages going up. Especially with the 400 apps they got for 25 FLL based jobs. Based on that they could actually pay less.

PotatoChip
12-13-2016, 05:45 PM
Once merged with CAL. Point remains the same, they weren't independant contractors. They were employees with the ability to collectively bargain if they sought to however. Something that can't be done at NAI (yet), thus don't plan on wages going up. Especially with the 400 apps they got for 25 FLL based jobs. Based on that they could actually pay less.

Wages only go up if you're unionized??
Contract pilots never receive pay raises?

Scut Farkus
12-13-2016, 07:25 PM
Please go read under Union Talk what the Canadian Union representing the Cathay Pacific Pilots up North are trying to do.
Their grievance is in front of an Arbitrator right now.
Thanks,
Scut

NEDude
12-13-2016, 08:57 PM
Wages only go up if you're unionized??
Contract pilots never receive pay raises?

Interesting. I know for a fact Virgin America pay went up several times without a union. I also experienced my pay being raised, significantly, while I was working on a contract overseas.

It seems to me that pay is overwhelmingly determined by the financial health of the airline combined with the supply and demand for pilots. For example: after 9/11, many airlines were struggling financially and many pilots lost their jobs. Despite union contracts and the ability to collectively bargain, pilot pay dropped significantly. Now airlines doing very well financially and the supply of pilots, at least on the lower end, is limited. The result is pilot pay is increasing. The next time airlines begin to struggle financially, pay will decrease again. History shows that it will, and only a fool would seriously believe otherwise.

captjns
12-13-2016, 08:57 PM
Wages only go up if you're unionized??
Contract pilots never receive pay raises?

And pension plans aren't harvested by the company, and there are never never any concessions without payback... with a union of course:rolleyes:.

jethikoki
12-14-2016, 03:24 AM
You're missing one key point in that comparison. Those are all union jobs.

An NAI pilot is employed as an independent contractor. When your contract is up, you're gone or you can reapply/renew. Been there 5 years and expecting a raise? How about no, we have plenty of applicants to replace you. We'll renew your contract at the current rate, maybe even lower, or just not at all. All those sick calls you took from only having 10 days a month off? Yeah we're not interested in renewing your contract.

This is why they're structured the way the are. They will control their labor costs as long as there are jackass *****s willing to sell out the profession, and themselves. Your comparison does not apply.
What is the "union" jobs? I think ALPA is an association that sold out fellow pilots giving up scope for their own greed. DAL pilots even had a stipulation that all flying must be done by DAL pilots on DAL owned equipment. What happened to that? Where is the line being held? Who were/are the real
"jackass *****s"?

CousinEddie
12-14-2016, 06:01 AM
Interesting. I know for a fact Virgin America pay went up several times without a union. I also experienced my pay being raised, significantly, while I was working on a contract overseas.

It seems to me that pay is overwhelmingly determined by the financial health of the airline combined with the supply and demand for pilots. For example: after 9/11, many airlines were struggling financially and many pilots lost their jobs. Despite union contracts and the ability to collectively bargain, pilot pay dropped significantly. Now airlines doing very well financially and the supply of pilots, at least on the lower end, is limited. The result is pilot pay is increasing. The next time airlines begin to struggle financially, pay will decrease again. History shows that it will, and only a fool would seriously believe otherwise.

So is Norwegian struggling financially to the point that they MUST use Out-Source-Me Aviation in an attempt to further reduce costs and avoid the RLA in the US? They tried, but the NMB ruled against them.

This is a shell game that JetBlue and VA never even considered. Not even People Express was so bold.

Nevertheless, you eagerly defend their practices.


https://storage.googleapis.com/dakota-dev-content/43-NMB-No.-21.pdf

Norwegian US-based Flight Attendants Vote for Representation - Association of Flight Attendants-CWA (http://www.afacwa.org/norwegian_us_based_flight_attendants_vote_for_repr esentation)

David Puddy
12-14-2016, 08:06 AM
Can someone also blacklist any pilot who flies for a Chinese airline?

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-12-12/china-s-flood-of-cheap-air-fares-deals-blow-to-global-carriers

Grumble
12-14-2016, 10:19 AM
Wages only go up if you're unionized??
Contract pilots never receive pay raises?

Tell you what... come back when captain pay at NAI cracks 50% of what the US carriers are paying FO's on the 787, who don't have to work 20-21 days a month to get paid. Or when an NAI FO makes more than 50% of an RJ captain.

You're worth what you negotiate.

The Dominican
12-14-2016, 10:32 AM
An NAI pilot is employed as an independent contractor. When your contract is up, you're gone or you can reapply/renew. Been there 5 years and expecting a raise? How about no, we have plenty of applicants to replace you. We'll renew your contract at the current rate, maybe even lower, or just not at all. All those sick calls you took from only having 10 days a month off? Yeah we're not interested in renewing your contract.

i've been working contact for the past decade and you miss a very important distinction about contract work....., right now this is a pilot's market, the need for pilots worldwide would make it imposible at this point in time to pull those kinds of stunts....., most (if not all) contracts worldwide are experiencing unprecedented increases, that is even increasing the pay for the local pilots, there has been substantial increases in many markets for local pilots due to he need for qualified crew members, from Asia, to Russia, to the middle east...., you have seen local pilots wages increases that are very significant.

The contract market is very tight with a LOT of competition and people are getting their contracts renewed with increases that are up to par with the competition.

The Dominican
12-14-2016, 10:46 AM
Tell you what... come back when captain pay at NAI cracks 50% of what the US carriers are paying FO's on the 787, who don't have to work 20-21 days a month to get paid. Or when an NAI FO makes more than 50% of an RJ captain.

You're worth what you negotiate.

Is this about their contract arrangement or about pay? because there are many pilots making half of what the NAI pilots are making, flying 787's and 777's into the US market and competing with US mainline carriers......!

I for one back up the notion of increasing the pay worldwide for all pilots......, the whole idea of making one pilot group the cause of all evil has never worked.

You still have scabs working at the mainline carriers...., even after the whole campaign a few years back....., places like GoJets are still hiring and i didn't see all the tough talk materialize with them....! This will also just blow over as nothing more than internet tough guy talk.

Nantonaku
12-14-2016, 11:21 AM
Is this about their contract arrangement or about pay? because there are many pilots making half of what the NAI pilots are making, flying 787's and 777's into the US market and competing with US mainline carriers......!

I for one back up the notion of increasing the pay worldwide for all pilots......, the whole idea of making one pilot group the cause of all evil has never worked.

You still have scabs working at the mainline carriers...., even after the whole campaign a few years back....., places like GoJets are still hiring and i didn't see all the tough talk materialize with them....! This will also just blow over as nothing more than internet tough guy talk.

What airline would that be? There are FO's flying 777's or 787's making roughly $40K flying international? I don't believe that.

PotatoChip
12-14-2016, 12:16 PM
Tell you what... come back when captain pay at NAI cracks 50% of what the US carriers are paying FO's on the 787, who don't have to work 20-21 days a month to get paid. Or when an NAI FO makes more than 50% of an RJ captain.

You're worth what you negotiate.

NAI FOs make $60-$70k. That's well over half of RJ captains.

CousinEddie
12-14-2016, 01:08 PM
NAI FOs make $60-$70k. That's well over half of RJ captains.

You left out the part about the 291 or so seats on a Norwegian 787-8. Have some dip with your potato chips.

The Dominican
12-14-2016, 02:20 PM
What airline would that be? There are FO's flying 777's or 787's making roughly $40K flying international? I don't believe that.

How much do you think that pilots in airlines like Aeromexico, Aserca, Latam to name a few make? :rolleyes:

Be careful of what you are made to believe....., it's easy to manipulate the masses when they are shown the boogie man to hate!

So my question again..., Is this about salary? We need to focus on bringing the salary levels up for all pilots then.

Or is this about contract jobs through an agency? Because there are many jobs like that out in the expat market, not just this one.

The Dominican
12-14-2016, 02:23 PM
You left out the part about the 291 or so seats on a Norwegian 787-8. Have some dip with your potato chips.

So under that logic..., a GV pilot should make 12,000/ Year?

You folks are making less and less sense as you go along:confused:

CousinEddie
12-14-2016, 02:51 PM
So under that logic..., a GV pilot should make 12,000/ Year?

You folks are making less and less sense as you go along:confused:

Since when is a GV built to make money hauling paying passengers? It is justified as a "time saving executive productivity business tool." Beyond that, iit's an expensive toy.

What kind of business plan can fly 290 people on a 787 yet only afford to pay the F/O half of what UAL offered the scab F/Os in 1985?

NYC Pilot
12-14-2016, 02:52 PM
No one ever mentions how low Cathay Pacific was paying 747 freighter pilots based in the U.S. Norwegian seems to be the flavor of the month but in reality will have no impact on the U.S travel market because they will eventually fail.

The Dominican
12-14-2016, 04:20 PM
Since when is a GV built to make money hauling paying passengers? It is justified as a "time saving executive productivity business tool." Beyond that, iit's an expensive toy.

What kind of business plan can fly 290 people on a 787 yet only afford to pay the F/O half of what UAL offered the scab F/Os in 1985?

Change the GV for a Cessna caravan then and voilà......!

What kind of a business plan has a pilot flying 160 passengers on an MD80 and pay their pilots 24K a year as is happening in many Latin American countries? You don't seem to have a problem with that..!

So is this about pay? Because this contract is middle of the road on pay, you have airlines flying passengers to the US on 787's and 767's with captains making 80K.....!

i'm not justifying this particular gig...., to be honest, I don't particularly care. I'm just curious as to why everyone has their panties in a wad about it.....!

Nantonaku
12-14-2016, 05:07 PM
How much do you think that pilots in airlines like Aeromexico, Aserca, Latam to name a few make? :rolleyes:

Be careful of what you are made to believe....., it's easy to manipulate the masses when they are shown the boogie man to hate!

So my question again..., Is this about salary? We need to focus on bringing the salary levels up for all pilots then.

Or is this about contract jobs through an agency? Because there are many jobs like that out in the expat market, not just this one.

1.) I still don't believe that a 787 FO at Aeromexico makes $40K, do you have a source you can quote for this? 2.) Even if they did they would be living a very lavish life, the average wage in Mexico is $15 a day. So even at $40K/year a pilot is making 10 times the average wage earner in Mexico. Compare that to $50K/year in the US.

It was never directly about the money. If you are still trying to figure out what this is about try this: Obama's bad plane deal (http://www.politico.com/agenda/story/2016/06/norwegian-air-department-of-transportation-trade-000136)

David Puddy
12-14-2016, 06:02 PM
1.) I still don't believe that a 787 FO at Aeromexico makes $40K, do you have a source you can quote for this? 2.) Even if they did they would be living a very lavish life, the average wage in Mexico is $15 a day. So even at $40K/year a pilot is making 10 times the average wage earner in Mexico. Compare that to $50K/year in the US.

It was never directly about the money. If you are still trying to figure out what this is about try this: Obama's bad plane deal (http://www.politico.com/agenda/story/2016/06/norwegian-air-department-of-transportation-trade-000136)

Should we also create a blacklist for any contract pilots flying for Chinese airlines that are undercutting prices of US legacies? True that the contract pilots make big money, but flying for the Chinese airlines enables them to compete with, and beat, US legacies on price in many cases. Many smaller Chinese airlines are ordering 787s and A350s and will be serving more US destinations in the future - and they will need experienced contract pilots (sitting along side their cheap local pilots) to help them initially.

Who thinks we should create a blacklist for those US contract pilots who help the subsidized Chinese airlines as well?

PotatoChip
12-14-2016, 06:26 PM
You left out the part about the 291 or so seats on a Norwegian 787-8. Have some dip with your potato chips.

I was responding to someone else. Please pay attention.

The Dominican
12-14-2016, 06:59 PM
1.) I still don't believe that a 787 FO at Aeromexico makes $40K, do you have a source you can quote for this? 2.) Even if they did they would be living a very lavish life, the average wage in Mexico is $15 a day. So even at $40K/year a pilot is making 10 times the average wage earner in Mexico. Compare that to $50K/year in the US.

It was never directly about the money. If you are still trying to figure out what this is about try this: Obama's bad plane deal (http://www.politico.com/agenda/story/2016/06/norwegian-air-department-of-transportation-trade-000136)

Of course you don't believe it....., you have been so manipulated into thinking this is an issue that you are ever rationalizing how a low salary in Mexico is lavish.....! Congrats, that is the 2nd. Most ridiculous comment thus far....., right after the dude that said that anybody that takes this job hates America.....!

Keep drinking that ALPA Koolaid boys and girls and keep patching the holes on the inflatable rat:rolleyes:

Boeing314
12-14-2016, 07:20 PM
Before you consider blacklisting make sure you look yourself in the mirror and ask a few honest questions.

1. Have I contacted every legislator that represents me about NAI?
2. Have I walked into the local offices of my legislators to speak with their aids about NAI?
3. Am I a PAC member of my Union?

If you answer no to any of the above questions, than get to work and involve your family so you stay motivated to follow through!

Otherwise, blacklist yourself along with the NAI pilots.


More actionable items to help save your career:
http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/major/98861-uniform-pilots-attend-12-16-trump-mco-rally.html

NEDude
12-14-2016, 07:41 PM
You left out the part about the 291 or so seats on a Norwegian 787-8. Have some dip with your potato chips.

It should be noted that NAI does not operate 787s. Norwegian Air Shuttle, the Norwegian AOC, operates the 787s and has long held U.S. DOT authority. But NAI, the Irish subsidiary that everyone is up in arms about, only operates 737s.

NEDude
12-14-2016, 08:17 PM
So is Norwegian struggling financially to the point that they MUST use Out-Source-Me Aviation in an attempt to further reduce costs and avoid the RLA in the US? They tried, but the NMB ruled against them.

This is a shell game that JetBlue and VA never even considered. Not even People Express was so bold.

Nevertheless, you eagerly defend their practices.


https://storage.googleapis.com/dakota-dev-content/43-NMB-No.-21.pdf

Norwegian US-based Flight Attendants Vote for Representation - Association of Flight Attendants-CWA (http://www.afacwa.org/norwegian_us_based_flight_attendants_vote_for_repr esentation)

Eagerly defending their practices is a bit of a stretch. The more accurate description would be the realisation that this chest pounding is a silly waste of time and is history repeating itself for about the fiftieth time. That and a desire for people to have all of the information available if they are going to get angry. ALPA has done a wonderful job of spreading a lot of misinformation out their, either intentionally or by their own ignorance. If you want to be angry, be angry at the facts, not at falsehoods.

flybywire44
12-14-2016, 08:45 PM
It should be noted that NAI does not operate 787s. Norwegian Air Shuttle, the Norwegian AOC, operates the 787s and has long held U.S. DOT authority. But NAI, the Irish subsidiary that everyone is up in arms about, only operates 737s.

Norway gained the right to fly to the US since 2011 and NAS has been flying to LAS since 2015. NAS now operate 40+ routes to the US, but the flights are not daily.

NAI is a mechanism for bypassing labor standards, tax dodging, gaining access to the rest of the world via 7th freedoms and the eventual transfer of 787 wet leases from NAS to the NAI. NAI 7th freedoms will add non-US flights that will be used to fuel further US penetration.

More details on this here.
https://skift.com/2016/10/06/norwegian-air-ceo-interview-regulators-and-airlines-are-afraid-of-us/

Many of the critical articles on NAI and Bjorn Kjos are in Norwegian. English search results are often not effective.

NEDude
12-15-2016, 04:26 AM
Norway gained the right to fly to the US since 2011 and NAS has been flying to LAS since 2015. NAS now operate 40+ routes to the US, but the flights are not daily.

NAI is a mechanism for bypassing labor standards, tax dodging, gaining access to the rest of the world via 7th freedoms and the eventual transfer of 787 wet leases from NAS to the NAI. NAI 7th freedoms will add non-US flights that will be used to fuel further US penetration.

More details on this here.
https://skift.com/2016/10/06/norwegian-air-ceo-interview-regulators-and-airlines-are-afraid-of-us/

Many of the critical articles on NAI and Bjorn Kjos are in Norwegian. English search results are often not effective.

It would make sense it except for two glaring problems:

1)The outsourcing contracts have been done under NAS and are in full compliance with Norwegian laws. NAI has zero effect on that.

2) Ireland is an EU country and party to the US-EU Open Skies agreement.

In order to claim that NAI is violating the Open Skies treaty, you have to argue that the outsourcing needs Ireland (which it doesn't), that Ireland does not comply with EU labour laws (which it does), and that the ability to create the Irish AOC was created by the Open Skies treaty (it was done under the provisions of the EEA agreement which has ZERO to do with the Open Skies treaty). Feel free to dislike what they do, but dislike them based on actual facts, not on raw emotion born of inaccuracies.

Boeing314
12-15-2016, 08:54 AM
It would make sense it except for two glaring problems:

1)The outsourcing contracts have been done under NAS and are in full compliance with Norwegian laws. NAI has zero effect on that.

2) Ireland is an EU country and party to the US-EU Open Skies agreement.

In order to claim that NAI is violating the Open Skies treaty, you have to argue that the outsourcing needs Ireland (which it doesn't), that Ireland does not comply with EU labour laws (which it does), and that the ability to create the Irish AOC was created by the Open Skies treaty (it was done under the provisions of the EEA agreement which has ZERO to do with the Open Skies treaty). Feel free to dislike what they do, but dislike them based on actual facts, not on raw emotion born of inaccuracies.

You start your post of with it, what is "it" that would make sense to you?

Yes, NAS uses social dumping to staff Norwegian Air Shuttle in an attempt to bypass joint collective bargaining and the laws that govern this. This is what economic trade zones are about after all—bypassing or making inapplicable regulatory law? Now your contention is that this is legal? This is a continuously common theme of discussion, which is why there where arguments over Article 17bis.

NAS has been flying to the US since 2015—prior to NAI approval. So NAI creation does not provide meaningful service that NAS couldn't already perform. NAI's core goal is to obtain 7th freedoms to apply yet another airline whipsaw. Contracted NAS pilots and the wet-leased Norwegian Group 787s are expected to be transferred to NAI so that NAI can fly the long-haul 7th freedoms Norwegian Group could access without NAI.

This type of labor recycling and social dumping is in-part why the UK is leaving the EU. And the UK is not the only population unhappy as other EU countries (Germany, Greece, Italy, and France etc.) grow increasingly dissatisfied. Finally, there is Trump which is why we are seeing so many pilots signing up for the SWAPA rally in MCO.

Braniff DC8
12-15-2016, 08:55 AM
It will hard for them to do all that flying anyway. The contracts are not that good and with all the hiring abroad it will be tough for them to attract people. The EASA license thing will be a killer. I give NAI a few years, at most, and it will die off.

Boeing314
12-15-2016, 09:05 AM
It will hard for them to do all that flying anyway. The contracts are not that good and with all the hiring abroad it will be tough for them to attract people. The EASA license thing will be a killer. I give NAI a few years, at most, and it will die off.

Braniff, great point. So the CEO of NAI—Bjorn Kjos has 'pledged' NAI to using only US and EU crews. If you go to www.openourskies.com you'll see that they Market NAI as being about the creation of American Jobs. But the EASA waiver that NAI received for three years is an indication that NAI has no intention of using US pilots post waiver. In a media interview Kjos later admitted that the intent is to use EU based crews.

Additionally, NAI is not making any significant profit right now but this may be more related to their significant rate of expansion.

Erdude32
12-15-2016, 11:35 AM
Back to the original question: Yes, they should be blacklisted along with every expat at the ME3.

NYC Pilot
12-15-2016, 11:53 AM
Back to the original question: Yes, they should be blacklisted along with every expat at the ME3.

Why should pilots who choose to fly as expats be blacklisted? You sound like a real moron! Like it or not, all the legacies gladly hire people who have been flying overseas.

jrmyl
12-15-2016, 05:46 PM
Back to the original question: Yes, they should be blacklisted along with every expat at the ME3.

What about those at contracts in China and other countries?

captjns
12-15-2016, 08:11 PM
Back to the original question: Yes, they should be blacklisted along with every expat at the ME3.

It would be totally out of line and rude to call you stupid for making such an inane remark about blacklisting pilots who had to make the hard choice of going overseas. Sure they had to put food on the family's table and keep the roof over their head. But no... I won't label you as stupid because calling you stupid would be an insult to those who are just plain stupid. I won't even label you as a putz.

Typhoonpilot
12-15-2016, 10:14 PM
Back to the original question: Yes, they should be blacklisted along with every expat at the ME3.


So just to get this straight. For those of us who left the USA in 2001-2005 after getting furloughed from our U.S. Legacy ALPA jobs; having our pensions unilaterally terminated; and there not being any meaningful hiring in the USA who went overseas to pursue some semblance of a career at airlines that did not even fly to the USA at the time we were hired, should be blacklisted?

Please explain your rationale' for that concept.



Typhoonpilot

NEDude
12-16-2016, 04:20 AM
So just to get this straight. For those of us who left the USA in 2001-2005 after getting furloughed from our U.S. Legacy ALPA jobs; having our pensions unilaterally terminated; and there not being any meaningful hiring in the USA who went overseas to pursue some semblance of a career at airlines that did not even fly to the USA at the time we were hired, should be blacklisted?

Please explain your rationale' for that concept.



Typhoonpilot

Because he is a guy who probably learned to fly in 2010 and has been at a regional airline his entire career. Anything that happened before 2010 is ancient history and inconsequential. This is why he believes a blacklist will work despite all the chest thumping that occurred with Southwest, America West, PeoplExpress, JetBlue, Freedom, GoJets, and Virgin America failed to have any affect. Even virtually all the former real scabs at Continental and United, who are still active in aviation, are all now ALPA members in good standing. If you can be a real life, honest to goodness, picket line crossing scab, and still be an ALPA member in good standing, what good do you think something like this will do?

CousinEddie
12-16-2016, 04:58 AM
It would be totally out of line and rude to call you stupid for making such an inane remark about blacklisting pilots who had to make the hard choice of going overseas. Sure they had to put food on the family's table and keep the roof over their head. But no... I won't label you as stupid because calling you stupid would be an insult to those who are just plain stupid. I won't even label you as a putz.

I agree that this blacklist talk is nonsense. You mentioned taking care of a family. For most of us, that is what keeping some degree of quality in this line of work is all about. From what I have read (in an article I posted on another thread)about life for FOs at your company, that quality isn't there. I suppose that is one reason I found the Instagram thread on here so irritating. Michael O'Leary no doubt loves a pilot that works for little (they only support themselves) and then posts pictures of how fantastic their lives are. I'm glad they still have the resources to travel to the Grand Canyon or whereever on their days off. But it's not like they have kids to raise or anything like that. Flying a 787 for 1/3 the going rate (along with signing a training bond perhaps) will make for more wonderful pictures too I suppose.

David Puddy
12-16-2016, 11:00 AM
So just to get this straight. For those of us who left the USA in 2001-2005 after getting furloughed from our U.S. Legacy ALPA jobs; having our pensions unilaterally terminated; and there not being any meaningful hiring in the USA who went overseas to pursue some semblance of a career at airlines that did not even fly to the USA at the time we were hired, should be blacklisted?

Please explain your rationale' for that concept.



Typhoonpilot

I believe he is being sarcastic because the idea that anyone should be blacklisted for being a non-scab pilot and earning a living is RIDICULOUS. These people are not airline scabs. This includes potential NAI pilots based in the US. As long as the operation is legal, pilots should not be held accountable for what their airlines do in terms of pricing or competitive strategy. If someone knowingly chooses to fly a Dreamliner at substandard wages, that is their business.

Bottom line, if you blacklist future NAI pilots based in the US, I guess you need to blacklist any pilot flying for a foreign airline impacting Legacy US airline results.

Nantonaku
12-16-2016, 02:18 PM
Because he is a guy who probably learned to fly in 2010 and has been at a regional airline his entire career. Anything that happened before 2010 is ancient history and inconsequential. This is why he believes a blacklist will work despite all the chest thumping that occurred with Southwest, America West, PeoplExpress, JetBlue, Freedom, GoJets, and Virgin America failed to have any affect. Even virtually all the former real scabs at Continental and United, who are still active in aviation, are all now ALPA members in good standing. If you can be a real life, honest to goodness, picket line crossing scab, and still be an ALPA member in good standing, what good do you think something like this will do?

Points all well taken, I think everyone is well aware of the issues with ALPA - it is what it is. You still didn't answer Boeing's questions though, you are good at regurgitating NAI's talking points not so good at answering some of the legitimate concerns being brought up. ALPA isn't the only one fighting this, what is the ECAs position on this?

Csy Mon
12-16-2016, 02:49 PM
Translated and copied from a Norwegian newspaper:

Norwegian Air Shuttle is among several foreign airlines wishing to establish themselves in the country. The company will open bases in Buenos Aires and Córdoba, and possibly Mendoza, writes Reuters.
Norwegian will not disclose which routes they plan, but says that international flights are also a possibility.
- South America is a very interesting market with little competition and high prices, says Norwegian's spokesperson Alfons Claver said.
Norwegian is Argentina's first low cost airline. According to the newspaper La Nación sees Norwegian envisioned that the Argentines will fly twice as much in five to ten years.

GogglesPisano
12-16-2016, 05:00 PM
Translated and copied from a Norwegian newspaper:

Norwegian Air Shuttle is among several foreign airlines wishing to establish themselves in the country. The company will open bases in Buenos Aires and Córdoba, and possibly Mendoza, writes Reuters.
Norwegian will not disclose which routes they plan, but says that international flights are also a possibility.
- South America is a very interesting market with little competition and high prices, says Norwegian's spokesperson Alfons Claver said.
Norwegian is Argentina's first low cost airline. According to the newspaper La Nación sees Norwegian envisioned that the Argentines will fly twice as much in five to ten years.

Looks like they're planning on being the Wal-Mart of the airline industry -- on a global scale.

I predict, however, they'll be crushed like Laker was -- by a concerted effort by the established legacy carriers. Otherwise this career will go down the tubes.

captjns
12-16-2016, 06:17 PM
Looks like they're planning on being the Wal-Mart of the airline industry -- on a global scale.

I predict, however, they'll be crushed like Laker was -- by a concerted effort by the established legacy carriers. Otherwise this career will go down the tubes.

Yeah.... like Ryanair, EZjet, Condor Air Berlin, and the list goes on.:rolleyes:

intrepidcv11
12-16-2016, 07:47 PM
Yeah.... like Ryanair, EZjet, Condor Air Berlin, and the list goes on.:rolleyes:

So two examples of mostly shorthaul low budget. The long haul example you site is in pretty deep crud. But the list rolls on...

captjns
12-16-2016, 08:40 PM
So two examples of mostly shorthaul low budget. The long haul example you site is in pretty deep crud. But the list rolls on...

Yeah... but they're still alive. And lets not forget Jetstar, and Virgin Australia, while you're at it. Oh, how about Skoot, and Tiger Air?

gettinbumped
12-16-2016, 10:18 PM
Intreresting how the little gnome at FR was chastised by those in the industry... with charging for pre-boarding, food on board, checked bags. While, I don't condone MOL's disdain for his employees, I wish the FR direct employees took a stronger stance against MOL as pay, benefits, and T&C were eroded.

Oh... remind me... aren't DAL, AA, and UAL following the FR model? Even UAL has gon a step further towards the FR model with their "basic fare"... last to board, no assigned seating, one carry on, and it better fit under the seat, $$$$.

Anyway, for me... FR was a 4 1/2 year vacation around Euroland. 5 days on five days off. I did vow however, I'd never work for a carrier that did not have at least a business class section.

Yeah, the majority of expats need the $$$. The minority can pick and choose the locations where to live and fly for a few years, then move on to the next adventure with a trade off for salary.

Yeah, NAI ofers a soft landing spot for U.S. Citizens who made a life in Europe and other countries. NAI offers a free ride back across the Atlantic. It's also a good opportunity for those who want to live in base too. Contracts are negotiable. If they don't want to put up the $$$$ for the bond, then they wont fly for NAI... simple. If NAI is hard up for U.S. based pilots,then they'll waive the training bond.

In the early 2000's many "Legacy Pilots" took early retirement to preserve their accrued benefits before the airlines terminated their retirement plans. They weren't ready to hang up the goggles and went overseas.

Would be interested to know your situation, seniority, length of service. Have you experienced, furloughs, mergers, seat realignments because of seniority list integration. Did you lose your retirement benefits?

1995 UAL. I lost $750k in ESOP stock, pension, 60% pay cut with a bump from the left seat all during bankruptcy. Merger with lost seniority. Prior to UAL I worked at 2 regionals. The first was for $9000/yr. Prior to that was flight instructing after paying my own way through flight school. And I had it much better than many at my airline.

Even regionals are paying bonuses for their pilots to come to work there. And NAI wants you to pay a training bond?!!!!!! You've GOT to be kidding me. Go to NAI if you want. But I recommend you go eyes WIDE open. For the first time in a long time, management and unions are on the same page about something: that NAI is a cancer that should be killed at all costs. Don't expect a warm embrace from any airline or its pilots; whatever form that takes. Except maybe JetBlue. So if you go to NAI, you'll want to plan on staying forever and hope that the winds of politics don't shift the other way.

You complain about there not being enough high quality jobs to come back to in the states, yet you are eager to go to work for the very entity that is trying to kill them off.... RIGHT when they are finally starting to come back. You think NAI is going to be the kind of company that eventually offers good pay and benefits?? Puh-lease! TRAINING CONTRACTS??! It's 2016.

gettinbumped
12-16-2016, 10:26 PM
This is getting silly now. I guess all those code shares the major U.S. carriers signed off on, with the pilot's endoresement, is ok but NAI is wrong??? Really now? Sorry but that is utter hypocricy and nonsense. You can't, you won't, have it both ways. I am with NEdude here. I always love how jumpseats get used as a tool to punish people. It's why a lot of airlines keep taking it out of the Captains hands.

Stop making empty threats because threats can go both ways. Will you also be threatening customers/passengers that choose to fly on NAI? If they connect to say a DAL flight will you be denying them? NO you won't, you would be fired. The same as if JetBlue denied an Aer Lingus pax. So, you'll use the jumpseat, which you know can't happen anyway, as a tool/threat.

I'm surprised at all this and am dissappointed in my American brothers for such things.

You clearly have NO IDEA why NAI is a different animal than code share, LCC's etc. It's easy to educate yourself on this topic. Nobody has any issue with Norwegian flying as many 787's into the USA as they can operate.

NEDude
12-16-2016, 10:56 PM
1995 UAL. I lost $750k in ESOP stock, pension, 60% pay cut with a bump from the left seat all during bankruptcy. Merger with lost seniority. Prior to UAL I worked at 2 regionals. The first was for $9000/yr. Prior to that was flight instructing after paying my own way through flight school. And I had it much better than many at my airline.

Even regionals are paying bonuses for their pilots to come to work there. And NAI wants you to pay a training bond?!!!!!! You've GOT to be kidding me. Go to NAI if you want. But I recommend you go eyes WIDE open. For the first time in a long time, management and unions are on the same page about something: that NAI is a cancer that should be killed at all costs. Don't expect a warm embrace from any airline or its pilots; whatever form that takes. Except maybe JetBlue. So if you go to NAI, you'll want to plan on staying forever and hope that the winds of politics don't shift the other way.

You complain about there not being enough high quality jobs to come back to in the states, yet you are eager to go to work for the very entity that is trying to kill them off.... RIGHT when they are finally starting to come back. You think NAI is going to be the kind of company that eventually offers good pay and benefits?? Puh-lease! TRAINING CONTRACTS??! It's 2016.

Unions and management were on the same page with Virgin America as well...

PotatoChip
12-17-2016, 04:29 AM
Unions and management were on the same page with Virgin America as well...


And ironically the CEO of Virgin America is the former VP of Ops at United...

captjns
12-17-2016, 04:56 AM
1995 UAL. I lost $750k in ESOP stock, pension, 60% pay cut with a bump from the left seat all during bankruptcy. Merger with lost seniority. Prior to UAL I worked at 2 regionals. The first was for $9000/yr. Prior to that was flight instructing after paying my own way through flight school. And I had it much better than many at my airline.

Even regionals are paying bonuses for their pilots to come to work there. And NAI wants you to pay a training bond?!!!!!! You've GOT to be kidding me. Go to NAI if you want. But I recommend you go eyes WIDE open. For the first time in a long time, management and unions are on the same page about something: that NAI is a cancer that should be killed at all costs. Don't expect a warm embrace from any airline or its pilots; whatever form that takes. Except maybe JetBlue. So if you go to NAI, you'll want to plan on staying forever and hope that the winds of politics don't shift the other way.

You complain about there not being enough high quality jobs to come back to in the states, yet you are eager to go to work for the very entity that is trying to kill them off.... RIGHT when they are finally starting to come back. You think NAI is going to be the kind of company that eventually offers good pay and benefits?? Puh-lease! TRAINING CONTRACTS??! It's 2016.

Re-read my post, Gettinbumped. Its abundantly clear to the casual observer... if one doesn't want to put up or sign a bond, then they move to the next airline. There were no complaints, no rants, merely observations.

After 9/11, after many saw the hand writing on the wall before their retirement plans were terminated. They took the step to preserve what ever benefits they could form their retirement accounts... sought alternatives to maintain part if not all of their incomes and rolled over their pension distributions and took jobs overseas. Can't blame them for the desire to provide basic needs for their families, can you, Gettinbumped?

jcountry
12-17-2016, 05:02 AM
Will you be banning BMW and Airbus too? They have places in the U.S. and created jobs.


This has to be the most retarded analogy I have ever seen.

You are either incredibly ignorant or a trolling toolbag.

NEDude
12-17-2016, 07:44 AM
Points all well taken, I think everyone is well aware of the issues with ALPA - it is what it is. You still didn't answer Boeing's questions though, you are good at regurgitating NAI's talking points not so good at answering some of the legitimate concerns being brought up. ALPA isn't the only one fighting this, what is the ECAs position on this?

One could argue that most of you are good at simply regurgitating ALPA talking points as well.

The ECA is opposed to Norwegian, but what does that prove? Unions do not have the greatest track record when it comes to improving things for pilots. ALPA allowed RJs at regional airlines, in fact DALPA was perhaps the biggest culprit as to why RJs are not mainline aircraft. ALPA national signed off on the rotten Mesa contract of the early 2000s. Personally I favour anything that creates jobs for pilots. The more demand for pilots, the greater the upward pressure on pilot salaries, even if initially the salaries at the start up are not the greatest.

But the bottom line is article 17bis, even if you buy that it has been violated, does not in anyway provide legal justification for denial of an operating certificate. Not according the attorneys for the DOT. Not according to the principle U.S. negotiator of the Open Skies treaty. Not according the the principle E.U. negotiator for the Open Skies treaty. Not according to the European Commission. The very people who wrote and implemented the Open Skies treaty, on both sides of the Atlantic, disagree with the arguments of the unions and passenger airline trade groups (it should be noted that FedEx and Atlas Air have both been supportive of NAI).

What I also fail to understand is why you people have failed to learn from history. Not even a decade ago ALPA joined forces with the airline trade groups, led in large part by Alaska Airlines, in opposition to Virgin America. Today ALPA gladly collects the dues of the Virgin America pilots and Alaska Airlines has just significantly strengthened their position on the west coast by purchasing Virgin America. Had the unions and trade groups been successful in their effort, Alaska would be extremely vulnerable. 30 years ago, had PeoplExpress not existed, would Continental have survived to establish a valuable NYC hub and later merge with United?

Grumble
12-17-2016, 09:55 AM
Re-read my post, Gettinbumped. Its abundantly clear to the casual observer... if one doesn't want to put up or sign a bond, then they move to the next airline. There were no complaints, no rants, merely observations.

After 9/11, after many saw the hand writing on the wall before their retirement plans were terminated. They took the step to preserve what ever benefits they could form their retirement accounts... sought alternatives to maintain part if not all of their incomes and rolled over their pension distributions and took jobs overseas. Can't blame them for the desire to provide basic needs for their families, can you, Gettinbumped?

Hey, captain consession, we get it... you're the biggest cheerleader for working cheap. Whether or not you've ever crossed a picket line, you've rattled off just about every excuse a scab would use in this thread.

GogglesPisano
12-17-2016, 10:22 AM
What I also fail to understand is why you people have failed to learn from history. Not even a decade ago ALPA joined forces with the airline trade groups, led in large part by Alaska Airlines, in opposition to Virgin America. Today ALPA gladly collects the dues of the Virgin America pilots and Alaska Airlines has just significantly strengthened their position on the west coast by purchasing Virgin America. Had the unions and trade groups been successful in their effort, Alaska would be extremely vulnerable. 30 years ago, had PeoplExpress not existed, would Continental have survived to establish a valuable NYC hub and later merge with United?

Classic counterfactual fail.

The industry would have looked a little different if PE or VA had never come to fruition. But not that much different. Those pilots would have eventually landed jobs at other airlines -- and their absence would have put less downward pressure on pilot wages.

captjns
12-17-2016, 12:12 PM
Hey, captain consession, we get it... you're the biggest cheerleader for working cheap. Whether or not you've ever crossed a picket line, you've rattled off just about every excuse a scab would use in this thread.


Baa Baa Baa. Don't get your head stuck in the fence when grazing.

NEDude
12-17-2016, 08:43 PM
Classic counterfactual fail.

The industry would have looked a little different if PE or VA had never come to fruition. But not that much different. Those pilots would have eventually landed jobs at other airlines -- and their absence would have put less downward pressure on pilot wages.

So what you are saying is the piloting profession works completely counter to the principles of supply and demand. In your world the less pilot jobs there are, and the more pilots looking for work, puts upward pressure on salaries? Interesting...

So in your world the post 9/11 era was the best time to be a pilot. Highest pay and benefits ever...

ShyGuy
12-17-2016, 09:15 PM
And ironically the CEO of Virgin America is the former VP of Ops at United...

Who :confused:

PotatoChip
12-18-2016, 04:16 AM
Who :confused:

Sorry, typo, the COO... Steve Forte.

GogglesPisano
12-18-2016, 06:20 AM
So what you are saying is the piloting profession works completely counter to the principles of supply and demand. In your world the less pilot jobs there are, and the more pilots looking for work, puts upward pressure on salaries? Interesting...

So in your world the post 9/11 era was the best time to be a pilot. Highest pay and benefits ever...

Fewer pilots = higher pay. Same with every profession. We should be doing nothing to make it easier to be a pilot. There's a problem when a new entrant offers pay well below scale, and desperate pilots willing to skip a few rungs of the career ladder show up for work.

NEDude
12-18-2016, 06:55 AM
Fewer pilots and more jobs = higher pay. Same with every profession. We should be doing nothing to make it easier to be a pilot. There's a problem when a new entrant offers pay well below scale, and desperate pilots willing to skip a few rungs of the career ladder show up for work.

Fixed it for you.

You are only looking at the U.S. pilot market when this is, in fact, a global industry. Specifically this is a European airline. What they are paying comparable to other European airlines. Of course perhaps you prefer the Lufthansa alter-ego airline Eurowings, which pays its A330 pilots 15% less than Norwegian pays its 787 pilots.

CousinEddie
12-18-2016, 07:39 AM
Unions and management were on the same page with Virgin America as well...

So what? There were legitimate issues with the ownership structure of VA in the beginning. Once the appropriate adjustments to the structure were made, the DOT gave them the green light.

NEDude
12-18-2016, 07:46 AM
So what? There were legitimate issues with the ownership structure of VA in the beginning. Once the appropriate adjustments to the structure were made, the DOT gave them the green light.

Apparently you forget that the unions and airline management were never completely satisfied with Virgin America, and their opposition continued for a few years after the DOT gave them the green light. ALPA never fully relented until the VX pilots began to seek out representation. Alaska airlines specifically kept raising issues for nearly three years after the DOT gave VX the green light. It was not a simple case of airlines trying to get VX to comply with DOT demands, it was a concerted effort to keep VX from ever getting certified, even despite compliance with DOT demands.

CousinEddie
12-18-2016, 08:03 AM
Apparently you forget that the unions and airline management were never completely satisfied with Virgin America, and their opposition continued for a few years after the DOT gave them the green light. ALPA never fully relented until the VX pilots began to seek out representation. Alaska airlines specifically kept raising issues for nearly three years after the DOT gave VX the green light. It was not a simple case of airlines trying to get VX to comply with DOT demands, it was a concerted effort to keep VX from ever getting certified, even despite compliance with DOT demands.

Again, so what. If VA hadn't presented such a blurry ownership structure in the beginning, they wouldn't have attracted that kind of attention. The DOT required them to make changes prior to certification since they were found to not be in full compliance. Again, legitimate issues were raised that required changes. Ever wonder why Allegiant didn't have these issues?

CousinEddie
12-18-2016, 08:08 AM
And ironically the CEO of Virgin America is the former VP of Ops at United...

And he's being paid quite well in that (COO) role. Good for him. He left UAL to begin pursuing other offers over 10 years ago.

ShyGuy
12-18-2016, 08:52 AM
Sorry, typo, the COO... Steve Forte.

Oh ok. He's leaving in a couple days now that the merger closed.

ShyGuy
12-18-2016, 08:55 AM
Again, so what. If VA hadn't presented such a blurry ownership structure in the beginning, they wouldn't have attracted that kind of attention. The DOT required them to make changes prior to certification since they were found to not be in full compliance. Again, legitimate issues were raised that required changes. Ever wonder why Allegiant didn't have these issues?

Because Allegiant didn't plan on going head to head out of the largest airports (top 5) in the country like SFO, LAX, and JFK. No one cares when you go from Punta Gordo, Florida to Youngstown, Ohio. As NEDude said, the DOT challenges were satisfied but the other airlines (and esp ALPA) were still against Virgin America.

CousinEddie
12-18-2016, 10:30 AM
Because Allegiant didn't plan on going head to head out of the largest airports (top 5) in the country like SFO, LAX, and JFK. No one cares when you go from Punta Gordo, Florida to Youngstown, Ohio. As NEDude said, the DOT challenges were satisfied but the other airlines (and esp ALPA) were still against Virgin America.

Nobody cares? Like nobody cared about whatever SWA was up to at many secondary airports years ago. That lesson has been learned I think. Where does Andrew Levy work right now?

Where I live, Allegiant's LAS flights go right over the top of DEN on the way. Think that doesn't matter at all?

BMEP100
12-18-2016, 12:03 PM
I think it's time for ALPA, IBT, SWAPA, APA, and whoever else to ban together and declare that working for Norwegian or any subsidiary is only a small step above crossing a picket line and will not be tolerated.

1. Lifetime Jumpseat ban and creation of a blackball list

2. To the extent possible, banned from being hired at any other US Airline for the rest of their careers

3. No zed agreements with any NAI subsidiary

Unlike most union efforts, most mainline airline management (except JetBlue) probably hate NAI as much as we do and could be quite agreeable to make this happen.


What a moron!

NEDude
12-18-2016, 10:37 PM
Again, so what. If VA hadn't presented such a blurry ownership structure in the beginning, they wouldn't have attracted that kind of attention. The DOT required them to make changes prior to certification since they were found to not be in full compliance. Again, legitimate issues were raised that required changes. Ever wonder why Allegiant didn't have these issues?

Allegiant started as a scheduled charter airline in the 1990s, flying Fresno to Las Vegas using an old SAS DC-9-21. As mentioned, it did not set out to establish hubs in major cities and develop a route structure to challenge the major airlines. It did not start with great fanfare, huge amounts of funding, and large orders for brand new airplanes like JetBlue or Virgin America. Allegiant was barely a blip at the corner of major airlines radar screens when it acquired its AOC. Completely different animal altogether.

PruneJuice
12-20-2016, 10:43 AM
Fewer pilots = higher pay. Same with every profession. We should be doing nothing to make it easier to be a pilot. There's a problem when a new entrant offers pay well below scale, and desperate pilots willing to skip a few rungs of the career ladder show up for work.

Wrong. Less pilot jobs does not equal more pay. It equals less pay with more supply of pilots. You must be a democrat.

GogglesPisano
12-20-2016, 01:17 PM
Wrong. Less pilot jobs does not equal more pay. It equals less pay with more supply of pilots. You must be a democrat.

Reading comprehension not your strong point, eh? Reread what I wrote.

CousinEddie
12-20-2016, 02:13 PM
Allegiant started as a scheduled charter airline in the 1990s, flying Fresno to Las Vegas using an old SAS DC-9-21. As mentioned, it did not set out to establish hubs in major cities and develop a route structure to challenge the major airlines. It did not start with great fanfare, huge amounts of funding, and large orders for brand new airplanes like JetBlue or Virgin America. Allegiant was barely a blip at the corner of major airlines radar screens when it acquired its AOC. Completely different animal altogether.

So there was no opposition to a secondary market, lightly financed operation like Allegiant or a primary market, heavily financed operation like JetBlue. Guess there isn't much to say when the rules are clearly followed.

PruneJuice
12-20-2016, 04:28 PM
NAI pilots who do this are, Pseudo scabs

captjns
12-20-2016, 04:44 PM
NAI pilots who do this are, Pseudo scabs

Lay off the prune juice, you're losing your mind.

CousinEddie
12-21-2016, 06:26 AM
Lay off the prune juice, you're losing your mind.

Kind of like financial stress, zero hour contracts, and lack of job security despite flying for a profitable company makes most of your FOs feel?

captjns
12-21-2016, 06:55 AM
Kind of like financial stress, zero hour contracts, and lack of job security despite flying for a profitable company makes most of your FOs feel?

Most of the times, with the exception of Ryanair, the first officers are from the country where I've been employed. There concerns were typical of new F/Os... PCs and line checks. Rarely in the case for most pilots with Ryanair, was it a career carrier. It achieved its purpose for them when they moved on to other carriers.

There's never any job security as a contract pilot, be it in the U.S. or abroad. In the 25 years as an expat, I've been furloughed once for the poultry some of 2 weeks. The company gave us 3 months notice and full pay. The company gave us paid leave to interview with travel benefits too. How much notice do airlines in the U.S. give before they push the red button?

I don't care for the shiny jets, I research contracting companies that stand by the client. Not too many reputable agencies out there nowadays.

CousinEddie
12-21-2016, 07:24 AM
Most of the times, with the exception of Ryanair, the first officers are from the country where I've been employed. There concerns were typical of new F/Os... PCs and line checks. Rarely in the case for most pilots with Ryanair, was it a career carrier. It achieved its purpose for them when they moved on to other carriers.

There's never any job security as a contract pilot, be it in the U.S. or abroad. In the 25 years as an expat, I've been furloughed once for the poultry some of 2 weeks. The company gave us 3 months notice and full pay. The company gave us paid leave to interview with travel benefits too. How much notice do airlines in the U.S. give before they push the red button?

I don't care for the shiny jets, I research contracting companies that stand by the client. Not too many reputable agencies out there nowadays.

I have seen figures comparing Ryanair's cost structure to that of SWA. Needless to say, if they were theoretically allowed to compete against SWA, they would crush them. Same with Spirit even. I find it hard to believe that this contract model you speak of is essential to the survival of a large, mature, and profitable entity. I guess Mr. O is a really scarey guy.

Skyone
12-21-2016, 07:34 AM
Some have mentioned P.Ex., but have forgotten NYAir and AirFlorida. Lorenzo took aircraft from CAL and started his alter ego airline, call sign "Apple". Many a Navy pilot went that route in 79/80. They of course were called Scabs, etc. at the time. We'll they're full time APLA brethren now. AirFlorida was flying 747s across the pond. What were their wages? Way below par. Without their DCA accident, no telling where they might be today.

Just a few years back many a Alaska pilot on these boards were doing all the hating towards the VA pilots.

And who was hiring legacy pilots from bankrupt/pension terminated airlines in the early 2000s? Not U.S. carriers. I was told over and over again as a new hire 36+ years ago, son don't worry Delta will take care of you cradle to grave. They have never furloughed anyone and would never go bankrupt. Same with Piedmont, TWA, PanAm etc. So sit on your throne today and scab call all you want, but be very careful, you just might not have the career you think you will have. And BTW, in the early 80s there were no self define retirement plans such as 401Ks etc.

PotatoChip
12-21-2016, 07:56 AM
Some have mentioned P.Ex., but have forgotten NYAir and AirFlorida. Lorenzo took aircraft from CAL and started his alter ego airline, call sign "Apple". Many a Navy pilot went that route in 79/80. They of course were called Scabs, etc. at the time. We'll they're full time APLA brethren now. AirFlorida was flying 747s across the pond. What were their wages? Way below par. Without their DCA accident, no telling where they might be today.

Just a few years back many a Alaska pilot on these boards were doing all the hating towards the VA pilots.

And who was hiring legacy pilots from bankrupt/pension terminated airlines in the early 2000s? Not U.S. carriers. I was told over and over again as a new hire 36+ years ago, son don't worry Delta will take care of you cradle to grave. They have never furloughed anyone and would never go bankrupt. Same with Piedmont, TWA, PanAm etc. So sit on your throne today and scab call all you want, but be very careful, you just might not have the career you think you will have. And BTW, in the early 80s there were no self define retirement plans such as 401Ks etc.

Completely agree with this.
In my short ten years in the industry my opinions have changed A LOT by simply seeing the changes, and by actually studying airline history. I'm amazed how many people think what is happening today is all there is, and how many rely on propaganda as their source of information.
I'm fine with differing opinions, they make the world a better place, but please, please have both your facts straight, and your emotions on the shelf.

captjns
12-21-2016, 01:25 PM
I have seen figures comparing Ryanair's cost structure to that of SWA. Needless to say, if they were theoretically allowed to compete against SWA, they would crush them. Same with Spirit even. I find it hard to believe that this contract model you speak of is essential to the survival of a large, mature, and profitable entity.

Good for you. Most contractors really don't give a rat's A$$ about business models. For the young budding pilot its merely a stepping stone for the larger carriers. I looked at my time at FR as an opportunity to live in Euro land with a roster of 5 days on and 5 days off... just like SWA or JB:rolleyes:. I also had one full month off, along with two blocks of 14 days off integrated with my 5 days off... just like DAL or AA huh?;). But hey... that's what contract flying is all about.

I guess Mr. O is a really scarey guy.. Nah, the guy is just a little gnome like you'd find on your front lawn.

iceman49
12-21-2016, 01:49 PM
Some have mentioned P.Ex., but have forgotten NYAir and AirFlorida. Lorenzo took aircraft from CAL and started his alter ego airline, call sign "Apple". Many a Navy pilot went that route in 79/80. They of course were called Scabs, etc. at the time. We'll they're full time APLA brethren now. AirFlorida was flying 747s across the pond. What were their wages? Way below par. Without their DCA accident, no telling where they might be today.

Just a few years back many a Alaska pilot on these boards were doing all the hating towards the VA pilots.

And who was hiring legacy pilots from bankrupt/pension terminated airlines in the early 2000s? Not U.S. carriers. I was told over and over again as a new hire 36+ years ago, son don't worry Delta will take care of you cradle to grave. They have never furloughed anyone and would never go bankrupt. Same with Piedmont, TWA, PanAm etc. So sit on your throne today and scab call all you want, but be very careful, you just might not have the career you think you will have. And BTW, in the early 80s there were no self define retirement plans such as 401Ks etc.

Air Florida flew DC10s across the pond, still big equip...the prob at Air Florida was that their loans were prim plus 2 or 3, prime was than 13-14%; they could have paid the pilots nothing (which was pretty close) and they still would not have made it. The accident over the bridge merely accelerated the stall that was already occurring.
Completely agree with your throne call! Its strictly a business ran by those that do not have your best interest in mind. Its not your family despite what they want you to believe.

CousinEddie
12-21-2016, 05:13 PM
Good for you. Most contractors really don't give a rat's A$$ about business models. For the young budding pilot its merely a stepping stone for the larger carriers. I looked at my time at FR as an opportunity to live in Euro land with a roster of 5 days on and 5 days off... just like SWA or JB:rolleyes:. I also had one full month off, along with two blocks of 14 days off integrated with my 5 days off... just like DAL or AA huh?;). But hey... that's what contract flying is all about.

. Nah, the guy is just a little gnome like you'd find on your front lawn.

I get stepping stone jobs in this business. However, we are talking about the largest airline in Europe for Pete's sake! In business now for 30+ years. Then you guys get on here and wonder why we raise such a huge fuss about NAI?
That gnome in my front yard....my dog pees on it. Your little gnome pees on all of you.

https://www.google.com/amp/www.thejournal.ie/ryanair-mobile-phone-charging-1936757-Feb2015/%3Famp%3D1

NEDude
12-21-2016, 09:55 PM
So there was no opposition to a secondary market, lightly financed operation like Allegiant or a primary market, heavily financed operation like JetBlue. Guess there isn't much to say when the rules are clearly followed.

JetBlue most certainly faced opposition, particularly from unions. Apparently you have a selective memory.

NEDude
12-21-2016, 10:03 PM
Most of the times, with the exception of Ryanair, the first officers are from the country where I've been employed. There concerns were typical of new F/Os... PCs and line checks. Rarely in the case for most pilots with Ryanair, was it a career carrier. It achieved its purpose for them when they moved on to other carriers.

There's never any job security as a contract pilot, be it in the U.S. or abroad. In the 25 years as an expat, I've been furloughed once for the poultry some of 2 weeks. The company gave us 3 months notice and full pay. The company gave us paid leave to interview with travel benefits too. How much notice do airlines in the U.S. give before they push the red button?

I don't care for the shiny jets, I research contracting companies that stand by the client. Not too many reputable agencies out there nowadays.

I was furloughed three times during my time in the States, twice with union carriers. The most notice I received was six weeks, and that was with the non-union airline. Also the non-union airline organised a job fair on three weeks notice, inviting several other airlines to come and interview pilots getting cut. They also were flexible with the schedule and had all the management pilots available to cover trips for guys being furloughed to go to interviews. Neither of the two union carriers provided more than four weeks notice and none made any accommodations for time off for other interviews. There is no such thing as job security in this industry, and only a fool believes that there is. The bottom line is that when your airline is doing well, the jobs and pay will be there. Being a direct employee or a contract worker makes no difference. If your company is struggling, your pay and job are in jeopardy. Union contract and direct employment do not make a difference.

captjns
12-22-2016, 12:03 AM
I was furloughed three times during my time in the States, twice with union carriers. The most notice I received was six weeks, and that was with the non-union airline. Also the non-union airline organised a job fair on three weeks notice, inviting several other airlines to come and interview pilots getting cut. They also were flexible with the schedule and had all the management pilots available to cover trips for guys being furloughed to go to interviews. Neither of the two union carriers provided more than four weeks notice and none made any accommodations for time off for other interviews. There is no such thing as job security in this industry, and only a fool believes that there is. The bottom line is that when your airline is doing well, the jobs and pay will be there. Being a direct employee or a contract worker makes no difference. If your company is struggling, your pay and job are in jeopardy. Union contract and direct employment do not make a difference.

The company I was furloughed from was very gracious to us. They paid the committed 3 month severance to those who were in ground school. How many furloughed guys in the '70s and 2000's received furlough pay? Don't read any comments about that. How many U.S. carriers gave their pilots 3 month advance notice of being furloughed. Haven't read any responses to that either. Yeah they may get some money... but that's from their furlough fund which is self funded by the membership.

Times are good, for now for number 14,000 on the seniority list. But hey.... it's only a matter of time when time won't be so good. Don't be surprised if they're on the line to interview with NAI, Lion Air, or even... dare I type it???? Yeah FR.

captjns
12-22-2016, 12:15 AM
I get stepping stone jobs in this business. However, we are talking about the largest airline in Europe for Pete's sake! In business now for 30+ years. Then you guys get on here and wonder why we raise such a huge fuss about NAI?

Yeah I do. So if your airline pushes that bit red furlough button, you'll blame NAI? You guys need to go after your management to build a better mouse trap that will attract customers to your company. You guys need to have your unions go after your company for out sourcing your international flying both across the Atlantic and the Pacific. But no... you all meet in MCO, and for what... you all gather in DC... and for what. You all waste the room in cyberspace to write your white wine drinking dover sole eating congress men or senators to ban NAI... and for what? Tell me how's it working.


That gnome in my front yard....my dog pees on it.

Your little gnome pees on all of you.

Hardly sport... not compared to how your management your leadership $hIt on you. Tell us.... how's that terminated retirement plan working out for you sport? Oh and the pay cuts? Been reimbursed?

Yeah... better to be pi$$ed off than crapped on eh?

https://www.google.com/amp/www.thejournal.ie/ryanair-mobile-phone-charging-1936757-Feb2015/%3Famp%3D1

Grumble
12-22-2016, 11:46 AM
Yeah I do. So if your airline pushes that bit red furlough button, you'll blame NAI? You guys need to go after your management to build a better mouse trap that will attract customers to your company. You guys need to have your unions go after your company for out sourcing your international flying both across the Atlantic and the Pacific. But no... you all meet in MCO, and for what... you all gather in DC... and for what. You all waste the room in cyberspace to write your white wine drinking dover sole eating congress men or senators to ban NAI... and for what? Tell me how's it working.




Hardly sport... not compared to how your management your leadership $hIt on you. Tell us.... how's that terminated retirement plan working out for you sport? Oh and the pay cuts? Been reimbursed?

Yeah... better to be pi$$ed off than crapped on eh?

Some guys try to raise the bar, some just want everyone to play by the rules, some just chose the path of least resistance and accept substandard wages and QOL. Pretty clear which camp you fall in.

How much do you pay for your own recurrent training?

captjns
12-22-2016, 06:15 PM
Some guys try to raise the bar, some just want everyone to play by the rules, some just chose the path of least resistance and accept substandard wages and QOL. Pretty clear which camp you fall in.

How much do you pay for your own recurrent training?

Hmmmm.... so accepting lower wages, in the name of concessions without payback is raising the bar. Hmmmm... terminating pension plans, wiping out accumulated benefits is raising the bar. Hmmmm

Aren't you just a bit tired getting your head caught in the fence with your pants down?

CousinEddie
12-22-2016, 10:54 PM
Yeah I do. So if your airline pushes that bit red furlough button, you'll blame NAI? You guys need to go after your management to build a better mouse trap that will attract customers to your company. You guys need to have your unions go after your company for out sourcing your international flying both across the Atlantic and the Pacific. But no... you all meet in MCO, and for what... you all gather in DC... and for what. You all waste the room in cyberspace to write your white wine drinking dover sole eating congress men or senators to ban NAI... and for what? Tell me how's it working.




Hardly sport... not compared to how your management your leadership $hIt on you. Tell us.... how's that terminated retirement plan working out for you sport? Oh and the pay cuts? Been reimbursed?

Yeah... better to be pi$$ed off than crapped on eh?

You are right. We got crapped on, no doubt about it. What I didn't realize until recently was that it really wasn't quite as bad as I thought it was. I had absolutely no idea, until recently, how bad things were on your side of the pond. Had I been told just a year ago what life was like for a FR F/O, I never would have believed it. I would have thought that as the SWA or maybe the Spirit equivalent of Europe, it's an OK job. I didn't realize that FR was essentially a single pilot operation: Keep the Captains just barely satisfied and completely screw over the FOs. Listen to you....justifying this insanity with "Oh, it's a stepping stone for them." Even under a bankruptcy contract, my pay and benefits as a FO in relation to what the Captain received was reasonable. Hardly the case in your world. So Mr. O is essentially getting 2 pilots for the price of one. How is anyone that doesn't sink to that level supposed to compete? I honestly don't understand how you can tolerate such a dichotomy in your cockpit.

You asked about the terminated pension plan, pay cuts and all. No, we will never see the A-plan again. The PBGC benefit from that plan I don't expect to actually be there either down the road. The B-plan is still there. Under all those years of a bankruptcy contract, the company kicked in 16 percent of earnings into it (the B-plan) even if the pilot contributed nothing. Does Mr. O do that for you? Does he do it for your FOs? No, we will never be "reimbursed" for the pay cuts. However, the pay rate recovery and profit sharing of late is well beyond what I ever thought we would get back to. Will it last? I highly doubt it. But it will be good while it lasts.

You suggested going after our management and our union to rectify the wrongs. On that, I take your point. In the mean time, why don't you FR Captains get together and make it clear to Mr. O that his airplanes won't move in the near future until you start treating our FOs like the professional pilots that they are. If a Spirit FO can pay a mortgage with his / her job in the US, why shouldn' t one of your FOs be capable of doing the same in Europe? Is it because you have your semi-acceptable contract, so you couldn't care less?

CousinEddie
12-22-2016, 11:16 PM
JetBlue most certainly faced opposition, particularly from unions. Apparently you have a selective memory.

Well then help me out with my selective memory. Sure, I remember nobody being thrilled about a startup with pay below the industry average. I remember people being rather amazed at the funding they had to get going. I remember hearing squawking about more airplanes in the saturated NE corridor. I do not remember any campaigns against JB like the one involving NAI. So go ahead and refresh my memory. Post something I can click on and read to prove your point.

NEDude
12-23-2016, 05:01 AM
Well then help me out with my selective memory. Sure, I remember nobody being thrilled about a startup with pay below the industry average. I remember people being rather amazed at the funding they had to get going. I remember hearing squawking about more airplanes in the saturated NE corridor. I do not remember any campaigns against JB like the one involving NAI. So go ahead and refresh my memory. Post something I can click on and read to prove your point.


Here is a very quick one for you:

http://airlinefiles.com/jetblue/81-national-regional-airlines/357-jetblue-2.html

captjns
12-23-2016, 10:13 AM
:rolleyes::rolleyes:You are right. We got crapped on, no doubt about it. What I didn't realize until recently was that it really wasn't quite as bad as I thought it was. I had absolutely no idea, until recently, how bad things were on your side of the pond. Had I been told just a year ago what life was like for a FR F/O, I never would have believed it. I would have thought that as the SWA or maybe the Spirit equivalent of Europe, it's an OK job. I didn't realize that FR was essentially a single pilot operation: Keep the Captains just barely satisfied and completely screw over the FOs. Listen to you....justifying this insanity with "Oh, it's a stepping stone for them." Even under a bankruptcy contract, my pay and benefits as a FO in relation to what the Captain received was reasonable. Hardly the case in your world. So Mr. O is essentially getting 2 pilots for the price of one. How is anyone that doesn't sink to that level supposed to compete? I honestly don't understand how you can tolerate such a dichotomy in your cockpit.

You asked about the terminated pension plan, pay cuts and all. No, we will never see the A-plan again. The PBGC benefit from that plan I don't expect to actually be there either down the road. The B-plan is still there. Under all those years of a bankruptcy contract, the company kicked in 16 percent of earnings into it (the B-plan) even if the pilot contributed nothing. Does Mr. O do that for you? Does he do it for your FOs? No, we will never be "reimbursed" for the pay cuts. However, the pay rate recovery and profit sharing of late is well beyond what I ever thought we would get back to. Will it last? I highly doubt it. But it will be good while it lasts.

You suggested going after our management and our union to rectify the wrongs. On that, I take your point. In the mean time, why don't you FR Captains get together and make it clear to Mr. O that his airplanes won't move in the near future until you start treating our FOs like the professional pilots that they are. If a Spirit FO can pay a mortgage with his / her job in the US, why shouldn' t one of your FOs be capable of doing the same in Europe? Is it because you have your semi-acceptable contract, so you couldn't care less?

As a contractor there are no benefits. Contractors realize that going in. FR FOs know what their pay structure is as a 2 stripper, Jr. 3 stripper and a SR FO. I'm no longer with FR.

Now for you... you were promised a retirement benefit... right? Said plan was terminated along with all your cash... right? But you can justify the fact that 16 percent was contributed to your B fund... right? And that's OK... screwed out of cash your company was funding. I'll bet that set well with those approaching retirement.

I'm sure all that was part of your contract

captjns
12-23-2016, 11:32 AM
I forgot to mention CousinEddie, you stated that FR pilots shouldn't move the jets until MOL ponied up with better T & Cs. How long did you keep the parking brake set after your airline terminated your retirement plans.... just asking.

Grumble
12-23-2016, 08:02 PM
Hmmmm.... so accepting lower wages, in the name of concessions without payback is raising the bar. Hmmmm... terminating pension plans, wiping out accumulated benefits is raising the bar. Hmmmm

Aren't you just a bit tired getting your head caught in the fence with your pants down?

Wanna compare the career earnings of a LUAL pilot, including the pension grab, with the career earnings at Ryanair?

:rolleyes::rolleyes:

As a contractor there are no benefits. Contractors realize that going in. FR FOs know what their pay structure is as a 2 stripper, Jr. 3 stripper and a SR FO. I'm no longer with FR.

Now for you... you were promised a retirement benefit... right? Said plan was terminated along with all your cash... right? But you can justify the fact that 16 percent was contributed to your B fund... right? And that's OK... screwed out of cash your company was funding. I'll bet that set well with those approaching retirement.

I'm sure all that was part of your contract

Completely wrong, along with most of what you post.

captjns
12-23-2016, 10:50 PM
Wanna compare the career earnings of a LUAL pilot, including the pension grab, with the career earnings at Ryanair?



Completely wrong, along with most of what you post.

Negative sport

SUX4U
12-24-2016, 06:51 AM
Negative sport

Clearly you aren't going to change anyone's mind nor will anyone change your mind on these aspects/issues our industry faces. Now that it's turning into a Johnson measuring conversation, might it be time to focus on life outside the forums for a bit? Maybe family time might be a good suggestion? I don't know, maybe some sort of faded away hobby could be dusted off? Sooo much time and energy wasted here for nothing.

captjns
12-24-2016, 06:59 AM
Wanna compare the career earnings of a LUAL pilot, including the pension grab, with the career earnings at Ryanair?



Completely wrong, along with most of what you post.

The pension grab, silently supported by the group of pilots wiped out a major portion of their retirement benefits. Those within a couple years of their reitrement had budgeted their lives based on the terminated pension plan. You're OK with that. Tell those who lost their retirement that you're OK with the pension grab. I'm sure they'd love to pat you on the back while you drink that special glass of Koolaide.

On another note, are you that naive to think that LH pilots, for example, would stand still for even a nanosecond if their retirement benefits were terminated?

By the way Grumble, how many years were you with FR?

captjns
12-24-2016, 07:03 AM
Clearly you aren't going to change anyone's mind nor will anyone change your mind on these aspects/issues our industry faces. Now that it's turning into a Johnson measuring conversation, might it be time to focus on life outside the forums for a bit? Maybe family time might be a good suggestion? I don't know, maybe some sort of faded away hobby could be dusted off? Sooo much time and energy wasted here for nothing.

Not trying to SUX. Enjoy the holidays.

CousinEddie
12-24-2016, 08:10 AM
The pension grab, silently supported by the group of pilots wiped out a major portion of their retirement benefits. Those within a couple years of their reitrement had budgeted their lives based on the terminated pension plan. You're OK with that. Tell those who lost their retirement that you're OK with the pension grab. I'm sure they'd love to pat you on the back while you drink that special glass of Koolaide.

On another note, are you that naive to think that LH pilots, for example, would stand still for even a nanosecond if their retirement benefits were terminated?

By the way Grumble, how many years were you with FR?

JNS:
If you have time, check out this documentary on the UAL pension fiasco. It's a story that goes far beyond one company. You can judge for yourself where to point the finger at. We also spent several years under a court injunction for "misbehavior" in the wake of all this. Not sure how such a scenario would play out for LH. With that, I'll get off the thread. Merry Christmas.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film/retirement/

captjns
12-24-2016, 08:50 AM
JNS:
If you have time, check out this documentary on the UAL pension fiasco. It's a story that goes far beyond one company. You can judge for yourself where to point the finger at. We also spent several years under a court injunction for "misbehavior" in the wake of all this. Not sure how such a scenario would play out for LH. With that, I'll get off the thread. Merry Christmas.

Can You Afford to Retire? | FRONTLINE | PBS (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film/retirement/)

And to you and your family Cousineddie.

73driver
02-12-2017, 04:39 PM
I think it's time for ALPA, IBT, SWAPA, APA, and whoever else to ban together and declare that working for Norwegian or any subsidiary is only a small step above crossing a picket line and will not be tolerated.

1. Lifetime Jumpseat ban and creation of a blackball list

2. To the extent possible, banned from being hired at any other US Airline for the rest of their careers

3. No zed agreements with any NAI subsidiary

Unlike most union efforts, most mainline airline management (except JetBlue) probably hate NAI as much as we do and could be quite agreeable to make this happen.
Why, I have no algience to airline management

WHACKMASTER
02-12-2017, 05:46 PM
Why, I have no algience to airline management

Do you have any allegiance to our profession and trying to "raise the bar" instead of looking the other way as others lower it in a big way (NAI)?

AboveMins
02-13-2017, 09:18 AM
Will there be a black list of pilots who work for regionals that constantly undercut each other?

WHACKMASTER
02-13-2017, 09:28 AM
Will there be a black list of pilots who work for regionals that constantly undercut each other?

We're not talking about regionals. We're talking about good paying legacy/major jobs. The kind that most of us got into this business for and aspired to.

What's happened at the regionals is a disgrace and I get an evil grin every time I hear about one of them having to cancel flights due to a shortage of pilots. It's self-induced. Hopefully NAI and their ilk will have to do the same.

SUX4U
02-13-2017, 09:29 AM
Will there be a black list of pilots who work for regionals that constantly undercut each other?

Heavens no! They will be rewarded with a flow into AA for their undercutting efforts of one another! :D

Roundup
02-13-2017, 09:41 AM
From another Braniff DC8 guy, if you look at ALPA's history you will find they have a pretty bad labor history. They always went after the money, which left smaller carriers out of luck in a competitive market. In that regard they were frequently no better than trump.

Fletch727
02-13-2017, 10:16 AM
From another Braniff DC8 guy, if you look at ALPA's history you will find they have a pretty bad labor history. They always went after the money, which left smaller carriers out of luck in a competitive market. In that regard they were frequently no better than trump.

Don't forget to include the Clintons with their foundation and pay-for-play scheme. Need to give credit where credit is due.

AboveMins
02-13-2017, 10:22 AM
We're not talking about regionals. We're talking about good paying legacy/major jobs. The kind that most of us got into this business for and aspired to.

What's happened at the regionals is a disgrace and I get an evil grin every time I hear about one of them having to cancel flights due to a shortage of pilots. It's self-induced. Hopefully NAI and their ilk will have to do the same.

Gotcha... Gotta protect the guys on top, the rest be damned. Makes perfect sense now.

WHACKMASTER
02-13-2017, 11:09 AM
Gotcha... Gotta protect the guys on top, the rest be damned. Makes perfect sense now.

Bull$7it. That's not what I said so quit trying to put words into my mouth. For the record I came up through the regional ranks and paid my dues as well. The difference was that when I was qualified to move onto a legacy the industry was in the toilet post 9/11.

Now we finally have the good jobs back at the legacies and yet some of you continue to make excuses for not defending those jobs aggressively. Seriously, w-t-f is wrong with some of your lines of reasoning?!

Even IF you don't find yourself at one of those legacy jobs, they help lift the entire piloting profession up. Think about it. :rolleyes:

AboveMins
02-13-2017, 04:02 PM
Bull$7it. That's not what I said so quit trying to put words into my mouth. For the record I came up through the regional ranks and paid my dues as well. The difference was that when I was qualified to move onto a legacy the industry was in the toilet post 9/11.

Now we finally have the good jobs back at the legacies and yet some of you continue to make excuses for not defending those jobs aggressively. Seriously, w-t-f is wrong with some of your lines of reasoning?!

Even IF you don't find yourself at one of those legacy jobs, they help lift the entire piloting profession up. Think about it. :rolleyes:

Calm down, sparky. All I'd like to see is this kind of fervor and tenacity from my "union" not only to prevent this garbage from happening at the major level, but stop its practice at the regional level. You wouldn't believe how many of my FOs have no sympathy for national ****ing and moaning about NAI, when that same "union" has allowed that to perpetuate at our level for so long. But, I guess we're just paying our dues. I've had 3 FOs who have interviewed at NAI, supposedly. Can't blame them. They have families to feed, and our union mainline partner has let our well compensated union operation wither and die, while they give our nonunion sister company lucrative contracts. Never saw any outrage over that. But, yeah... brotherhood and unity... Rah rah rah. :-/

sweetholyjesus
02-13-2017, 04:37 PM
^ Well said. Mesa just picked up 12 E175s and will be flying them for Q200 rates just like the rest of their jet fleet.. Where's the outrage?:rolleyes:

captjns
02-13-2017, 06:08 PM
^ Well said. Mesa just picked up 12 E175s and will be flying them for Q200 rates just like the rest of their jet fleet.. Where's the outrage?:rolleyes:

You'll see the outrage when they legacies start outsourcing to the regionals and encroaches on their territory. Other than that, they don't give a rats a$$ about the regional guy.

David Puddy
02-13-2017, 07:04 PM
Will people start blaming ultra low-cost pilots from Spirit, Frontier and Allegiant for reduced legacy margins on overlapping routes too?

CousinEddie
02-13-2017, 07:17 PM
You'll see the outrage when they legacies start outsourcing to the regionals and encroaches on their territory. Other than that, they don't give a rats a$$ about the regional guy.

jns how's things?

Seen that movie before though.....and the Guppy killer stickers on the flight bags back in the day. Showed how much the employed regional guy cared about the newly unemployed mainline guy. It cuts both ways.

NEDude
02-14-2017, 01:53 AM
How about we just accept the fact that everyone who is at a different airline other than your own is a _______. They are the competition, they are undercutting, they encroaching, they are stealing jobs, etc.

sweetholyjesus
02-14-2017, 02:53 AM
Seen that movie before though.....and the Guppy killer stickers on the flight bags back in the day. Showed how much the employed regional guy cared about the newly unemployed mainline guy. It cuts both ways.
Sure, and how did it all start? Somebody had to vote in that scope clause. Shows how much the senior mainline guy cared about the newly unemployed junior mainline guy OR the now underpaid regional guy.

WHACKMASTER
02-14-2017, 04:50 AM
How about we just accept the fact that everyone who is at a different airline other than your own is a _______. They are the competition, they are undercutting, they encroaching, they are stealing jobs, etc.

Mmmm, no. Not exactly. Let's not take the eye off the ball here. We're talking about a "shell game" airline(s) paying their 787 pilots regional airline wages. Disgusting....

SkipperBaloo
02-14-2017, 08:00 AM
Will there be a black list of pilots who work for regionals that constantly undercut each other?

You mean the same guys and gals that subsidize profit margins and profit sharing at majors? Those regionals?

SUX4U
02-14-2017, 08:29 AM
Mmmm, no. Not exactly. Let's not take the eye off the ball here. We're talking about a "shell game" airline(s) paying their 787 pilots regional airline wages. Disgusting....

Yup! I support my fellow pilots from Delta, SWA, FEDEX, etc for helping raise the bar in this industry! I have serious hope for our brothers and sisters at the new Alaska, Spirit, Frontier that they too will be getting industry leading contracts to continue to keep upward pressure here in the states.

As for the regional guys... aren't many pilots currently getting paid higher than ever wages? Aren't many lined up to flow to AA without even needing to interview? Aren't they getting absurd sign on bonuses and rather quick upgrades as well? Not to mention how many regional guys are getting hired by majors now, the upward mobility has to be nice. Sure sounds better than my 9 years stuck as an RJ FO topped at $36 an hour. This of course doesn't represent all regionals as I know some are still struggling with their own issues i.e XJT, Mesa, etc. And finally, when I now get to hear from Commutair pilots that "nah, I'm not gonna take the freebie United job, I think I'll hold off for XYZ airline instead", I can say my sympathy level is starting dwindling for a lot of the regional guys right now.

WHACKMASTER
02-14-2017, 08:41 AM
Yup! I support my fellow pilots from Delta, SWA, FEDEX, etc for helping raise the bar in this industry! I have serious hope for our brothers and sisters at the new Alaska, Spirit, Frontier that they too will be getting industry leading contracts to continue to keep upward pressure here in the states.

As for the regional guys... aren't many pilots currently getting paid higher than ever wages? Aren't many lined up to flow to AA without even needing to interview? Aren't they getting absurd sign on bonuses and rather quick upgrades as well? Not to mention how many regional guys are getting hired by majors now, the upward mobility has to be nice. Sure sounds better than my 9 years stuck as an RJ FO topped at $36 an hour. This of course doesn't represent all regionals as I know some are still struggling with their own issues i.e XJT, Mesa, etc. And finally, when I now get to hear from Commutair pilots that "nah, I'm not gonna take the freebie United job, I think I'll hold off for XYZ airline instead", I can say my sympathy level is starting dwindling for a lot of the regional guys right now.

You and me both paid our dues at the regionals when $17,000 was the starting pay for RJ FOs. It wasn't right and I'm very happy to see liveable wages being paid at the regionals now (although they are still underpaid).

You can't blame an aspiring professional pilot for going the regional airline route whether it paid food stamp wages or a livable wage. It's one of the accepted and proven routes to the dream jobs. That said, to hear that some of them were toting "Guppy Killer" stickers on their flight bags is extremely disappointing and short-sighted of them.

Again, let's keep NAI separate from the regional airline issue as they are in fact different issues.

Andy
02-14-2017, 10:18 AM
You mean the same guys and gals that subsidize profit margins and profit sharing at majors? Those regionals?

LOL! You really think that the regionals make money for mainline? Sure, if you do creative accounting tricks like the way mainline accountants do it. Take a $200 one way GRB-FLL fare where it's GRB-ORD on an RJ and ORD-FLL on mainline. Attribute $175 of that fare to the GRB-ORD leg and voila! regional flying's profitable.

In the real world, Independence Air (and ExpressJet?) weren't able to make the numbers work as independent airlines flying RJs. The CASM on RJs is not competitive with mainline jets. Even if you charged RJ pilots to fly the planes, they still wouldn't make money as standalone operations.

There are a number of reasons why mainline outsources to regionals but it's not because RJs being flown at RJ payscales is profitable.

sweetholyjesus
02-14-2017, 10:32 AM
With all due respect, let's not lose focus here boys. Yes there are issues in our current industry. Yes there are differences between the old an new generations. But think about what is at stake here. Even those coveted mainline jobs that we must now "put in the time for" could disappear if all those jobs are taken over by cheaper foreign airlines. All those American passengers would be providing profits to other countries' GDPs. There is so much more at stake than just regional vs. mainline.

Not that any of this online discussion matters in the grand scheme of things, but it'd be pretty sad if our lack of unity, as Americans, somehow led to the demise of our industry. And yes, I'm guilty of it too. One step at a time..

2StgTurbine
02-14-2017, 12:58 PM
That said, to hear that some of them were toting "Guppy Killer" stickers on their flight bags is extremely disappointing and short-sighted of them.

You "hear" that they have these stickers? Just like the stereotypical frosted hair, sunglass wearing, backpack toting, ear bud wearing regional pilot, I think these "Guppy Killer" stickers are a bit of a unicorn that allows mainline pilots to distill complex economic and industry issues into a simple black and white issue.

I'm not saying that no one ever had such stickers on their flight case, but that was probably 10 years ago. The vast majority of regional pilots are aware that more regional flying means less mainline jobs. And in all likelihood, the pilots who had those "Guppy Killer" stickers are probably at United by now and have long forgotten about the days they even carried a flight case.

sweetholyjesus
02-14-2017, 01:10 PM
Exactly. US carriers have taken advantage of our lack of unity for decades. Don't let some conniving bastards from some frozen over country in Europe do the same!

PS: My apologies to anyone from Ireland or Norway. Very nice places to visit when they're not screwing us over. :)

kevbo
02-14-2017, 02:47 PM
You'll see the outrage when they legacies start outsourcing to the regionals and encroaches on their territory. Other than that, they don't give a rats a$$ about the regional guy.

Don't they know that the majors are set aside for military and other upper middle class golden boys. All you no name wannabes get to languish in the regional cesspool until we have all been served.

SkipperBaloo
02-14-2017, 03:01 PM
LOL! You really think that the regionals make money for mainline? Sure, if you do creative accounting tricks like the way mainline accountants do it. Take a $200 one way GRB-FLL fare where it's GRB-ORD on an RJ and ORD-FLL on mainline. Attribute $175 of that fare to the GRB-ORD leg and voila! regional flying's profitable.

In the real world, Independence Air (and ExpressJet?) weren't able to make the numbers work as independent airlines flying RJs. The CASM on RJs is not competitive with mainline jets. Even if you charged RJ pilots to fly the planes, they still wouldn't make money as standalone operations.

There are a number of reasons why mainline outsources to regionals but it's not because RJs being flown at RJ payscales is profitable.

So they are just doing it out of the kindness of their hearts? If it didn't boost the bottom line, then there would not be a reason to outsource right?

GogglesPisano
02-14-2017, 04:24 PM
How about we just accept the fact that everyone who is at a different airline other than your own is a _______. They are the competition, they are undercutting, they encroaching, they are stealing jobs, etc.

Unless they make more money. Get it?

trip
02-14-2017, 04:28 PM
There are a number of reasons why mainline outsources to regionals but it's not because RJs being flown at RJ payscales is profitable.

Do tell....

Andy
02-14-2017, 07:26 PM
Do tell....

Gates/slots for one. Do I need to elaborate further? (gawd, I hope not - that was a huge clue)

2StgTurbine
02-14-2017, 10:55 PM
Regional airlines are profitable. Regionals make money (a small amount though) otherwise, they wouldn't be in business. Some of the regional flights might cost the mainline carrier more money than the amount of revenue they get, but on a whole, they make money too.

While CRJ with only 20 passengers that paid $200 for a ticket might seem like an unprofitable flight, the regional that operated that flight got paid a fixed amount. Those 20 passengers then boarded United flights which charged them $1,500 to go to Europe. If United didn't subsidise that CRJ flight, those 20 passengers from DCA wouldn't have been flying to Europe on United.

Mainline carriers cover the costs of regional airlines in order to funnel passengers from small cities that cannot support mainline aircraft, to larger airports that can. While the individual flights may be unprofitable, the total journey for each passenger is profitable (most of the time).

SUX4U
02-15-2017, 07:17 AM
So why is it I only hear of the outrage against Norwegian from this side of the pond's airlines vs the legacy European airlines? One would think that BA, Air France, Iberia, etc would be upset to see them ****ing in their sand box as well. Yet I haven't read or heard a peep from that side. Does this not strike anyone as bizarre?

A further question, does Norwegian Air Shuttle have the same "negative" impact on trans Atlantic flights as NAI? I don't believe they are a FoC violator, but curious if their business model is equally as damaging as NAI. I literally can't keep up with the amount of garbage airlines the Norwegian is putting out.

Spin
02-15-2017, 10:42 AM
SUX,
Because the European legacies got used to that by putting up with the likes of Ryanair and other european lcc's.

captjns
02-15-2017, 01:01 PM
SUX,
Because the European legacies got used to that by putting up with the likes of Ryanair and other european lcc's.

What do you mean putting up with the likes of FR and others? Are you that naive to think that FR exists to this day because of the benevolence of Euro carriers?

Papa Bear
02-16-2017, 01:04 PM
Management has pretty much taken hiring out of pilot hands. Unless the guy sitting across the table is on board with this. It really makes no difference. They are going to get hired.
Now harassment is a total other deal. Some people can put up with silent cockpits, clackers and the occasional load of rocks dumped on their front yard. They still will have 787 time and flying a 737 at United by 30 years old.

Pound sand it seems we will all be doing!

CTRCommander
07-16-2017, 06:49 PM
Ok I'm on my way


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