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View Full Version : Is sexism/racism still an issue?


80knts
12-21-2016, 08:50 AM
Just came across this article from 2014 which discusses the lack of diversity in airline cockpits. I was interested in seeing input from actual pilots to see if the things said in this article hold any weight. Have you seen any discrimination in hiring practices at your airline or is this a non-issue?

Airlines' flight decks lack diversity | TheHill (http://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/transportation/218401-the-company-isnt-going-to-hire-black-pilots-anymore)


PotatoChip
12-21-2016, 09:20 AM
Lack of diversity does not equal racism/sexism.

80knts
12-21-2016, 09:43 AM
Lack of diversity does not equal racism/sexism.
I did not mean to imply that and apologize if I came off that way. To clarify, I was referring to the opening quote of the article if this is even a true quote.

"The chief pilot asked me to hire a black female pilot so we could check off a 'diversity' box on a reporting form so we could keep our government contracts," a human resources director of a mid-sized air cargo transport company told me last year at a pilot recruiting event. "Once I did hire that woman, the chief pilot came back to me and said to never hire another one [black female pilot] again. Things are gonna stay the way they've always been around here," she said.


PotatoChip
12-21-2016, 10:51 AM
I did not mean to imply that and apologize if I came off that way. To clarify, I was referring to the opening quote of the article if this is even a true quote.

"The chief pilot asked me to hire a black female pilot so we could check off a 'diversity' box on a reporting form so we could keep our government contracts," a human resources director of a mid-sized air cargo transport company told me last year at a pilot recruiting event. "Once I did hire that woman, the chief pilot came back to me and said to never hire another one [black female pilot] again. Things are gonna stay the way they've always been around here," she said.

I find all of that to be rather suspicious. Human Resources, not the chief pilot, would be more likely to know what "mix" of employees was required. Second, that's a rather boldly racist stance to take for a chief pilot. "Mid-sized air cargo transport company" could imply a LOT of places and is rather vague...

In general, no, this sort of thing does not happen from what I've seen in "mid-size" (500+ pilots) and up departments.

BoilerUP
12-21-2016, 10:58 AM
"The failure has in part contributed to the monolithic demography of U.S. ATPs and a culture of whiteness and masculinity in the flight deck."

Sorry, but with this sentence I cannot take the author of that piece seriously.

PotatoChip
12-21-2016, 11:39 AM
"The failure has in part contributed to the monolithic demography of U.S. ATPs and a culture of whiteness and masculinity in the flight deck."

Sorry, but with this sentence I cannot take the author of that piece seriously.

^^^lol. Agreed.

atpcfi
12-22-2016, 04:57 AM
The comments posted at the end of this article are very sad and I hope this isn't the way the majority of our country feels. The problem is, it's difficult to determine if someone got hired or not hired based on whether they were a minority or not without having all the information. I'm sure we have all sat with someone in the cockpit who said they were not hired even with what seems to be extraordinary qualifications and for the captains, someone that was hired with zero jet PIC time even with thousands of applicants with PIC time out there. The problem is we just don't have all the info, we don't know the applicant's past, if there were any skeletons, how the interview went, etc. I'm sure a few qualified applicants have been passed over in the name of diversity, but I'm also certain more than a few qualified minorities have been passed over for the reasons mentioned in the article (if not in recent history, for sure prior to the 60's and 70's). I have heard managers in the past (not at airlines) say some pretty egregious things when they felt they were in good company. My point is we don't have all the info we need to make a determination of discrimination in either direction. I'd like to think it happens both directions and comes in a wash at the end.

rickair7777
12-22-2016, 08:01 AM
Two separate things, not to be confused...

The traditional airline career path began in the military. Both military and airlines have long career pipelines and you cannot jump in or out in the middle. Today's senior widebody Captains began their journey in Vietnam.

Society has changed, and the military has followed suite, but the senior pilots of today reflect a snapshot of 1970's demographics. What you see there is 40 years time-late, and does not reflect opportunities today. Both the airlines and the military are falling all over themselves to hire non-whites and women, when they can find them.

If you pay attention to the younger pilots, you'll see much more diversity but still plenty of white males. Reason for that is that aviation is a long journey and usually starts with childhood interests. White males are more likely to be rural or suburban gear-heads, and to pursue technical education relevant to aviation. Woman tend to prefer white-collar education and work to technical fields, so the pool of interested minority/female applicants is limited just based on their own interests. I don't consider that to be a fault of the aviation industry, if there's a problem maybe society needs to provide better early education opportunities to some demographics.

The majority of female pilots tend to drop out of aviation, or take career off-ramps to raise kids. Their choice, but entirely understandable...it's a rough lifestyle with kids.

As far as cockpit culture, with the few rare exceptions that exist in any walk of life, you'll find it very welcoming and open to anyone (we even have trans pilots now, although I can't say they are warmly accepted just yet).

If you're interested and willing to do what it takes to get there, you'll have a good experience. Although you'll probably have to discuss politics you don't agree with at some point, but all of us have had that experience.

GogglesPisano
12-22-2016, 08:10 AM
Great post rickair.

You're forgetting, however, that in today's society it's a crime that every occupation isn't populated in exact proportion with societal demographics. Not enough female scientists, not enough NFL coaches of color (never mind the player demographic -- that's illusory.) Not enough women in boardrooms. Not enough female law partners. This institutional sexism and racism needs to be rectified by any means necessary -- even if it means forcing some people to like the idea of flying airplanes and science. In the name of diversity.

No excuses will be tolerated.

:rolleyes:

Diesel8
12-22-2016, 08:40 AM
It all depends on what side of the equation that you fall. Lots of variables there. You would have to see it from both sides to truly understand. This is something that no one can truly accomplish.

It is also highly dependent on corporate culture at specific companies. A fair amount of larger companies make a point of getting their "tokens" to address any implication of sexism/racism.

I have seen a fair amount of diversity at the smaller operators that I have worked at. Is there still sexism/racism? You bet, when not in an audience that demands "PC" behavior, there is still a lot of nasty rhetoric that follows the typical stereotypic attitudes. Day to day, probably not as much as in the past.

I find it hilarious that most people that deny the existence of racism/sexism are for the most part 100 % not in any of the affected groups.

Overall it might have faded or grown some over the years, it just something that if fairly ingrained in our culture, it's not anything that will fully go away any time soon.

Learflyer
12-22-2016, 09:24 AM
It all depends on what side of the equation that you fall. Lots of variables there. You would have to see it from both sides to truly understand. This is something that no one can truly accomplish.

It is also highly dependent on corporate culture at specific companies. A fair amount of larger companies make a point of getting their "tokens" to address any implication of sexism/racism.

I have seen a fair amount of diversity at the smaller operators that I have worked at. Is there still sexism/racism? You bet, when not in an audience that demands "PC" behavior, there is still a lot of nasty rhetoric that follows the typical stereotypic attitudes. Day to day, probably not as much as in the past.

I find it hilarious that most people that deny the existence of racism/sexism are for the most part 100 % not in any of the affected groups.

Overall it might have faded or grown some over the years, it just something that if fairly ingrained in our culture, it's not anything that will fully go away any time soon.



No one is denying racism still exists. It exists in different forms. It happens in some very unpopular situations on a very large basis. Such as...black on white, black on Asian, and black on gay. All very largely unreported. Not a popular stat to address, but it's the truth.

And white males are the only ones that are expected to change their ways. We're the easiest to pick on. Sorry if I'm a little rough. I come from a large law enforcement family.

John Carr
12-22-2016, 10:10 AM
Great post rickair.

You're forgetting, however, that in today's society it's a crime that every occupation isn't populated in exact proportion with societal demographics. Not enough female scientists, not enough NFL coaches of color (never mind the player demographic -- that's illusory.) Not enough women in boardrooms. Not enough female law partners. This institutional sexism and racism needs to be rectified by any means necessary -- even if it means forcing some people to like the idea of flying airplanes and science. In the name of diversity.

No excuses will be tolerated.

:rolleyes:

Both yours and Ricks's are excellent posts that all too many people want to ignore.

Sure, there WAS a time when the rationale of "we simply didn't think it was an option for us" was viable. That went away long ago......

"Equality means an equal chance, NOT an equal outcome".

And white males are the only ones that are expected to change their ways. We're the easiest to pick on. Sorry if I'm a little rough. I come from a large law enforcement family.

Another truth/REALITY.

It was comical a few years back at WAI, there were some younger female pilots openly commenting about all the males there, and how messed up it was that males are allowed to attend. As in, saying it loud enough that plenty of people around can hear it.

Diesel8
12-22-2016, 12:23 PM
Probatum Est!

NMuir
12-22-2016, 07:11 PM
I have the utmost respect for stewardesses.... giggity

RyeMex
12-22-2016, 07:47 PM
It was comical a few years back at WAI, there were some younger female pilots openly commenting about all the males there, and how messed up it was that males are allowed to attend. As in, saying it loud enough that plenty of people around can hear it.

I had a female roommate a few years back who, when I commented that I had attended WAI, was aghast at the prospect that women weren't immediately given the front of the line for all of the meet and greet's. She couldn't get over how "unfair" it was that women had to wait in line to talk to recruiters, like all the men did.

Of course, she was also the only first officer that I ever flew with who universally had a reputation with every captain that I knew for being the most incompetent and dangerous pilot that they had ever flown with. So, naturally her career depends on being pushed to the front of the line. That and her plastic surgery should allow her career to go far.

Crazy Canuck
12-22-2016, 08:48 PM
I had a female roommate a few years back who, when I commented that I had attended WAI, was aghast at the prospect that women weren't immediately given the front of the line for all of the meet and greet's. She couldn't get over how "unfair" it was that women had to wait in line to talk to recruiters, like all the men did.

Of course, she was also the only first officer that I ever flew with who universally had a reputation with every captain that I knew for being the most incompetent and dangerous pilot that they had ever flown with. So, naturally her career depends on being pushed to the front of the line. That and her plastic surgery should allow her career to go far.


Haha, I once told a girl who commented "remember when this used to be about women?" that women didnt need these job fairs to get hired. She had nada

John Carr
12-22-2016, 09:16 PM
I had a female roommate a few years back who, when I commented that I had attended WAI, was aghast at the prospect that women weren't immediately given the front of the line for all of the meet and greet's. She couldn't get over how "unfair" it was that women had to wait in line to talk to recruiters, like all the men did.


I don't remember if it was 2 or 3 years ago, but the recruiters at WAI were doing that, pulling the females to the front. There was a female RJ CA, one that's sucked up the dark decade like many others. When they tried to pull her to the front her response was along the lines of "nope, I'll wait in line like everyone else".

Haha, I once told a girl who commented "remember when this used to be about women?" that women didnt need these job fairs to get hired. She had nada

That's awesome.

alphonso1
12-23-2016, 12:39 PM
Two separate things, not to be confused...

The traditional airline career path began in the military. Both military and airlines have long career pipelines and you cannot jump in or out in the middle. Today's senior widebody Captains began their journey in Vietnam.

Society has changed, and the military has followed suite, but the senior pilots of today reflect a snapshot of 1970's demographics. What you see there is 40 years time-late, and does not reflect opportunities today. Both the airlines and the military are falling all over themselves to hire non-whites and women, when they can find them.

If you pay attention to the younger pilots, you'll see much more diversity but still plenty of white males. Reason for that is that aviation is a long journey and usually starts with childhood interests. White males are more likely to be rural or suburban gear-heads, and to pursue technical education relevant to aviation. Woman tend to prefer white-collar education and work to technical fields, so the pool of interested minority/female applicants is limited just based on their own interests. I don't consider that to be a fault of the aviation industry, if there's a problem maybe society needs to provide better early education opportunities to some demographics.

The majority of female pilots tend to drop out of aviation, or take career off-ramps to raise kids. Their choice, but entirely understandable...it's a rough lifestyle with kids.

As far as cockpit culture, with the few rare exceptions that exist in any walk of life, you'll find it very welcoming and open to anyone (we even have trans pilots now, although I can't say they are warmly accepted just yet).

If you're interested and willing to do what it takes to get there, you'll have a good experience. Although you'll probably have to discuss politics you don't agree with at some point, but all of us have had that experience.

I have to agree with you.

There are NOT a lot of African Americans that have Parents That can afford to send their kids to Embry Riddle, Dowling College, or any other Flying School.

It's too much money to learn and too much money lost as a CFI/CFII.

And most Blacks don't have the Academic Credentials to have achieved this career Path via the Military either (Army, Navy, Air Force, etc.)

My Parents didn't pay for my Tickets. My Wife paid for about 50%
Of It and Large Federal Income Tax Refunds paid for the rest. (Carnival Airlines Pilot Development Program)

alphonso1
12-23-2016, 12:48 PM
Just came across this article from 2014 which discusses the lack of diversity in airline cockpits. I was interested in seeing input from actual pilots to see if the things said in this article hold any weight. Have you seen any discrimination in hiring practices at your airline or is this a non-issue?

Airlines' flight decks lack diversity | TheHill (http://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/transportation/218401-the-company-isnt-going-to-hire-black-pilots-anymore)

I've never seen any Discrimination Practices from my POV.

I'm African American and I've been flying professionally since 1995
With Carnival Airlines as A Flight Engineer.....I'm now flying with one of the Top 3 Worldwide Cargo Carriers.

Never had a problem getting the jobs or the people I've flown with.

It's a very close brotherhood and most everyone welcomes you with open arms.......unless you demonstrate tendencies that may be UNSAFE....Then the outlook is different and would be different NO MATTER Waht Your Ethnic Persuasion.

NMuir
12-23-2016, 01:07 PM
I have to agree with you.

There are NOT a lot of African Americans that have Parents That can afford to send their kids to Embry Riddle, Dowling College, or any other Flying School.

It's too much money to learn and too much money lost as a CFI/CFII.
Most white parents can't either.

I was stuck in the middle no mans land where my parents made too much money for me to qualify for student aid, but not enough to actually pay for everything themselves. :rolleyes:

John Carr
12-23-2016, 02:42 PM
Most white parents can't either.

I was stuck in the middle no mans land where my parents made too much money for me to qualify for student aid, but not enough to actually pay for everything themselves. :rolleyes:

That was my case as well, weird how that happened. I worked full time all through school as well to supplement my CFI income.

There are NOT a lot of African Americans that have Parents That can afford to send their kids to Embry Riddle, Dowling College, or any other Flying School.

True, a sad reality.

See above.

Interesting enough, I was teaching at a school that had a relationship with OBAP. Many of the students that were coming through had parents that were a mix of airline pilots, lawyers, engineers, etc.

So they're part of an organization that's helping them get their multi and 100 hours ME ASAP to get them a job at a regional, with healthy financial backing.

IOW, they aren't really the ones needed a "leg up" so to speak to pursue the career.....

Macjet
12-23-2016, 03:44 PM
I've never seen any Discrimination Practices from my POV.

I'm African American and I've been flying professionally since

Where you born in Africa?

kevbo
12-23-2016, 06:04 PM
Flying is an expensive proposition that tends to omit and/or at some point, starve out all but the most able, lucky, or well sponsored people. Very few minorities ever take lessons and somehow its the airlines fault. Larger companies are forced to hire from the bus stop and place them into positions above their experience level. This action creates a lot more sexism and racism than otherwise would exist.

dutch747
12-24-2016, 02:24 AM
This will sound arrogant, but this thread is absolutely ridiculous and should be closed. Truth is not all females want to be pilots,lumberjacks, etc, and not all African Americans aspire to be scientist, pilots, lumberjacks, etc. Not all white men aspire to be pilots, lumberjacks, scientist, etc. SO to put a "number" on it and say this profession or that profession is not represented EQUALLY is absolutely NOT true. The truth is you can't put a number on any profession because no one really knows what percentage of what any race wants to do with their life.

When you start assigning numbers of how each race should be represented in each profession you breed resentment, hatred and in some cases racism. Worst then that for the minorities who have really paid their dues and worked hard to achieve their goals are not given the respect they deserve.

The liberals who started this thread will never be happy in how minorities are represented in aviation.

We should not "NOT HIRE or NOT INTERVIEW" someone based on their genitalia or skin color - as a matter of fact its against the law. But we should also not "HIRE or INTERVIEW" someone based on their skin color or genitalia.

Almost all men I know are intellectually well beyond this view of seeing people through such a narrow minded prism. Someday I hope the shallow liberals will catch up with us.

Diesel8
12-24-2016, 07:02 AM
dutch747,
Let's not get bigoted against liberals, or for that matter conservatives who historically have not faired that well dealing with sexism/racism. After all our new president thinks it's a-ok "to grab em by the p*ssy". Blaming sexism/racism on liberals is a pretty ridiculous stretch.


The longer this thread continues, the more obvious it becomes that sexism/racism still is a prevalent attitude, no matter how loudly people deny it. It's like the old saying "some of my best friends are black".

What I can tell you is I know many "minorities" that have battled very hard in this career field to get the positions that they have attained, and they weren't given any favors to get there. They have worked very hard to ensure that the negative stereotypes of their groups are not perpetuated. Are there a few rotten apples out there? Sure there are, but it is easier to denigrate them based on their sex/race than their competence. That way you can cast that attitude on all members of their group.

I have seen lack of competence in white males, but you never hear derogatory remarks about them on the basis of their sex or color. If anything it is more accepted and you have to give "Joe" a chance!

As far as going to the OBAP or WAI job fairs when not being a member of the any of those groups, your not going to see me attending, even though WM's and anyone else for that matter are welcomed with open arms. Why? Respect. You guys do what you want, I don't care.

This thread s*cks. There is nothing new here only more of the status quo.



bye.

BoilerUP
12-24-2016, 07:25 AM
Yes, there is racism, sexism, and overt/implicit bias throughout American society...including whites, blacks, Asians, Hispanics, men, women, sexually confused, Christians, Atheists, and yes, professional pilots.

The bias among professional pilots (as a whole) against minorities is certainly less than it used to be, but it does still exist.

Does that mean all professional pilots are biased? No. Does it mean "the system" is biased? No, absolutely not. Are there greater socioeconomic factors that play a far greater role than bias? I would argue absolutely.

While reality can and should be acknowledged...let us also not go exaggerating occurance or impact like it is some sort of fundamental flaw.

80knts
12-24-2016, 07:46 PM
Thanks for the helpful replies everyone. To clarify the original intent of this thread, it was not meant to imply that I expect equal representation among minorities or women in aviation. I simply wanted the opinions of the professionals on this board as to whether or not you believed there is discrimination in the hiring process at your airlines. Not really sure where dutch747 got the idea that I wanted equal representation in any field of work. Again, thanks for the helpful responses everyone.

Ludicrous Speed
12-25-2016, 02:17 AM
Lack of diversity does not equal racism/sexism.

Yes it does.

.....

ItnStln
12-25-2016, 02:48 AM
No one is denying racism still exists. It exists in different forms. It happens in some very unpopular situations on a very large basis. Such as...black on white, black on Asian, and black on gay. All very largely unreported. Not a popular stat to address, but it's the truth.

And white males are the only ones that are expected to change their ways. We're the easiest to pick on. Sorry if I'm a little rough. I come from a large law enforcement family.
I completely agree!

ItnStln
12-25-2016, 02:53 AM
Lack of diversity does not equal racism/sexism.
Well said. What ever happened to hiring the most qualified candidate for any job?

PotatoChip
12-25-2016, 06:56 AM
Yes it does.

.....

So a barber shop in North Philly that has nine employees that are all black is racist? A fire department in rural Iowa with all white firefighters is racist?

Give me a break.

ItnStln
12-25-2016, 07:08 AM
So a barber shop in North Philly that has nine employees that are all black is racist? A fire department in rural Iowa with all white firefighters is racist?

Give me a break.

I once asked one of my black employees who was complaining that he was one of only three black employees in the district this question after telling both my boss and myself that it was racist: I asked him "if blacks aren't applying for the job how can we interview and hire them?" He didn't get what I was saying, as we had to u terrier all employees who applied.

GogglesPisano
12-25-2016, 07:14 AM
So a barber shop in North Philly that has nine employees that are all black is racist?
Give me a break.

Yes. We need to promote being a barber to white Palo Alto high school seniors -- in the name of diversity.

kevbo
12-25-2016, 02:32 PM
I wonder how our new president feels about this subject?

Ludicrous Speed
12-26-2016, 07:20 PM
So a barber shop in North Philly that has nine employees that are all black is racist? A fire department in rural Iowa with all white firefighters is racist?

Give me a break.

No and no. But your examples are are obvious non-sequiturs and do not prove your statement. When there is lack of diversity on a larger scale (and there is), that is an indicator of racism. i.e., How many times have you seen a magazine featuring the 25 highest paid CEO's and they're all white men. Or an even better example, conviction rates for drug possession are much higher with blacks than whites, even though actual drug use between whites and blacks are about the same.


No, you give me a break.

PotatoChip
12-27-2016, 06:57 AM
No and no. But your examples are are obvious non-sequiturs and do not prove your statement. When there is lack of diversity on a larger scale (and there is), that is an indicator of racism. i.e., How many times have you seen a magazine featuring the 25 highest paid CEO's and they're all white men. Or an even better example, conviction rates for drug possession are much higher with blacks than whites, even though actual drug use between whites and blacks are about the same.


No, you give me a break.

Agree to disagree. I'm fine with that.

2StgTurbine
12-27-2016, 08:30 AM
Call me a pessimist, but I have very little faith that sexism and racism will be solved on the internet, much less on APC.

popcorn
01-05-2017, 09:57 AM
It's entertaining every time I see white males in aviation talking about how they are getting hosed because they are white males. Women make up about 5% of airline pilots. The reasons for that don't matter. What matters is because of the small numbers, women have more visibility. You notice the females, the males are just another uniform in the crowd. Everyone has a story about "that girl who couldn't fly". They probably flew with scores of males who sucked, but didn't stand out. Male privilege is a real thing. It's a fact that these perceptions and biases force female pilots to work that much harder, because no one wants to be labeled "that girl". Male pilots can be mediocre all day, but if a female flies that way, she gets the stigma. Someone else mentioned "career off ramps". Yes, until science finds a way to make men have babies (trust me, we're pulling for you), women who want a family are going to have to take some time out of their career, even with an accommodating spouse. This is a big bart of the glass ceiling (another real thing) and the fact that women make less than men who do the same jobs, and achieve less promotions. Penalties for taking that time off.

So when you see "diversity programs", don't assume it's because airlines have some ulterior motive to hiring minorities and women. It's because corporations realize that these societal biases tilt the playing field away from minorities and women, and they want to level the playing field. Even with all of this "diversity hiring", the percentages of minorities and women in aviation has remained relatively unchanged. As for the popular theory that checking boxes is an immediate route to a dream job, the "happy monday" crowd knows better and has worked just as hard to get there as you, and in many cases, harder.

Treehorn
01-07-2017, 07:36 AM
Wrong!


Every female I can think of that has been along my same ranks here and there at different companies throughout my career are now at Delta, United, Fedex, and UPS. They most certainly are acquired by the majors like theyre some sort of rare Pokémon. Some of them are even average pilots.

f10a
01-07-2017, 12:13 PM
Wrong!


Every female I can think of that has been along my same ranks here and there at different companies throughout my career are now at Delta, United, Fedex, and UPS. They most certainly are acquired by the majors like theyre some sort of rare Pokémon. Some of them are even average pilots.
+100........

FlybyKnight
01-09-2017, 05:36 PM
Wrong!


Every female I can think of that has been along my same ranks here and there at different companies throughout my career are now at Delta, United, Fedex, and UPS. They most certainly are acquired by the majors like theyre some sort of rare Pokémon. Some of them are even average pilots.

What about the rest of them?

Treehorn
01-09-2017, 09:04 PM
What about the rest of them?

Frightening

FlybyKnight
01-09-2017, 09:15 PM
Frightening

Are those the ones that made it to the legacies?

Treehorn
01-10-2017, 02:35 AM
Are those the ones that made it to the legacies?

They all make it. That's my point.

742Dash
01-10-2017, 04:22 AM
My daughter is an engineer, working for a large company that hires a disproportionate number of female engineers. They are not trying too, it is simply a result of their putting a high priority on social skills during the interview process.

And I am not surprised. Years ago I used to participate in my employer's hiring/interview process, and it was very rare for female applicants to be condescending to the receptionists, snap at the van drivers or bristle when questioned about a resume issue during the interview itself. On the other hand it was common to find male applicants doing these things (and yes, having an attitude towards the "little people" can cost you a job).

And for the record I am an old white guy.

FlybyKnight
01-10-2017, 06:17 AM
They all make it. That's my point.

Why would the legacies hire incompetent pilots regardless of their minority status? Are you saying that the legacies are not screening applicants thoroughly enough on their flying ability and screening more on their social background?

poor pilot
01-10-2017, 07:51 AM
Just the numbers.

f10a
01-10-2017, 07:57 AM
My daughter is an engineer, working for a large company that hires a disproportionate number of female engineers. They are not trying too, it is simply a result of their putting a high priority on social skills during the interview process.

And I am not surprised. Years ago I used to participate in my employer's hiring/interview process, and it was very rare for female applicants to be condescending to the receptionists, snap at the van drivers or bristle when questioned about a resume issue during the interview itself. On the other hand it was common to find male applicants doing these things (and yes, having an attitude towards the "little people" can cost you a job).

And for the record I am an old white guy.
Noble qualities indeed. Notwithstanding, woman tend to be quite passive and cave under duress. Have had many otherwise competent female pilots have total melt downs over seemingly insignificant issues. Sorry, but I'd rather have a guy who snaps at incompetent little people vs having to have a box of tissues to hand out while walking on egg shells.

BoilerUP
01-10-2017, 08:00 AM
...and when women are strong-willed/opinionated, decisive, and/or stand their ground the way men are expected to they are often derisively called a b**ch.

popcorn
01-10-2017, 09:52 AM
...and when women are strong-willed/opinionated, decisive, and/or stand their ground the way men are expected to they are often derisively called a b**ch.

Exactly. That is a typical day in the life of a female captain. Such qualities are admired and sought after in male pilots. Not so much for females. Huge double standard.

John Carr
01-10-2017, 10:04 AM
...and when women are strong-willed/opinionated, decisive, and/or stand their ground the way men are expected to they are often derisively called a b**ch.

Well, depends on said female.

I've flown with more than a few that were fully capable of being strong/decisive CA's/leaders WITHOUT the attitude/meltdown micromanaging, what have you. Coincidentally, they were some of the most respected CA's.

The above is almost becoming the scapegoat/copout for when a woman gets challenged on her decisions or leadership.

BoilerUP
01-10-2017, 10:17 AM
Well, depends on said female.

I've flown with more than a few that were fully capable of being strong/decisive CA's/leaders WITHOUT the attitude/meltdown micromanaging, what have you.

I would agree with that, as it has been my professional experience as well.

The above is almost becoming the scapegoat/copout for when a woman gets challenged on her decisions or leadership.

Yes, there are some weak and insecure female pilots out there that have attitude problems and rationalize everything away - but there are weak and insecure male pilots that do that, too.

And let's be honest, we all know guys that default to a "she's a B" attitude when faced with a strong female personality and that is what I'm talking about.

EasternATC
01-10-2017, 10:27 AM
Noble qualities indeed. Notwithstanding, woman tend to be quite passive and cave under duress. Have had many otherwise competent female pilots have total melt downs over seemingly insignificant issues. Sorry, but I'd rather have a guy who snaps at incompetent little people vs having to have a box of tissues to hand out while walking on egg shells.

This is categorically the most ignorant post I've ever read on APC.

John Carr
01-10-2017, 10:33 AM
Yes, there are some weak and insecure female pilots out there that have attitude problems and rationalize everything away - but there are weak and insecure male pilots that do that, too.

Agreed, no different.

And let's be honest, we all know guys that default to a "she's a B" attitude when faced with a strong female personality and that is what I'm talking about.

Agreed on that too. And we ALL KNOW the ones that default to "it's because I'm a woman blah blah blah" when it's more like "no, it's because you suck"

All the time I spent in the left seat, where "mentorship" is specifically outlined in the FOM, it was amazing how direct you can be with a weak male FO that may be performing substandard vs. how "sensitive" you have to be with a weak female FO.

GogglesPisano
01-10-2017, 11:09 AM
Just the numbers.

Another interesting chart would be interview success rate broken down by the same demographic.

John Carr
01-10-2017, 11:15 AM
Another interesting chart would be interview success rate broken down by the same demographic.

It truly is a shame that those numbers would NEVER be released.

But I've always thought the same.

The number/stats of md (majority demographic) pilots interviewed vs. hired compared to omd (outside majority demographic) interviewed vs. hired. If someone were to say they were the same, I'd have a hard time believing them.

Now, I KNOW someone (NOT YOU) is going to cry "but....but....I know an OMD pilot that wasn't hired!!!!!!"

Yeah, SO DO I. In some cases it caused me to scratch my head wondering why, in others, not so much........

NMuir
01-10-2017, 02:42 PM
My daughter is an engineer, working for a large company that hires a disproportionate number of female engineers. They are not trying too, it is simply a result of their putting a high priority on social skills during the interview process.
Is she single? Does she have single co-workers? Where is this magical place you speak of? :D

742Dash
01-10-2017, 05:24 PM
Is she single? Does she have single co-workers? Where is this magical place you speak of? :D

Sorry, but she brought a guy home this past weekend. :(

As for where, lets just say that it is cold and has a lot of cows. And really good ice cream.

Bhounddog
01-31-2017, 11:49 AM
Interesting thread. Do you think there’s any sort of unspoken bias that causes pilots who look like stereotypical pilots to be hired over others?

For example, during a recent trip, I had a long layover at Hobby and noticed most Southwest pilots were tall men who looked like they played football in high school. If I were to pursue becoming a pilot, would it be a detriment to my career if I’m short and look like I played soccer in high school? In other words, I look more like Eric from Entourage (Kevin Connolly) than Sully from Sully (Tom Hanks).

Do any of you think there is a hiring bias in which pilots who look like a traditional American pilot get hired over pilots who don't look the part, even with similar resumes and experience?

*I'm asking from the standpoint of a curious potential career changer. I'm not a bitter pilot trying to justify why I'm not employed by a major airline yet.

kevbo
01-31-2017, 01:50 PM
Interesting thread. Do you think there’s any sort of unspoken bias that causes pilots who look like stereotypical pilots to be hired over others?

For example, during a recent trip, I had a long layover at Hobby and noticed most Southwest pilots were tall men who looked like they played football in high school. If I were to pursue becoming a pilot, would it be a detriment to my career if I’m short and look like I played soccer in high school? In other words, I look more like Eric from Entourage (Kevin Connolly) than Sully from Sully (Tom Hanks).

Do any of you think there is a hiring bias in which pilots who look like a traditional American pilot get hired over pilots who don't look the part, even with similar resumes and experience?

*I'm asking from the standpoint of a curious potential career changer. I'm not a bitter pilot trying to justify why I'm not employed by a major airline yet.

Every human interaction is subjective base mostly on how you look followed by reputation and lastly credentials. You will always find more fair haired golden boys in any desireable position. I have been discredited in a group because i did not look like a person they wanted to hear. Instead they turned to the guy who was taller and better dressed. How many female pilots look like Roseanne Barr? There is your answer.

Bhounddog
02-01-2017, 03:10 PM
Every human interaction is subjective base mostly on how you look followed by reputation and lastly credentials. You will always find more fair haired golden boys in any desireable position. I have been discredited in a group because i did not look like a person they wanted to hear. Instead they turned to the guy who was taller and better dressed. How many female pilots look like Roseanne Barr? There is your answer.

As long as we're being judgmental in this thread, I doubt most people who look like Rosanne Barr or her male counterpart John Goodman could pass first class medical. Hence, there's a fair explanation why you don't see many pilots who look like Rosanne Barr or John Goodman.

As far as "golden boys in desirable positions," that varies by industry. For example, short and nerdy looking Mark Zuckerberg doesn't fit a "golden boy" stereotype and is in a very desirable position in tech. But, I didn't see any pilots who look like Mark Zuckerberg while walking around Hobby during my 4 hour layover.

Does being having a "golden boy" look help a pilot's career? And would looking like Mark Zuckerberg hurt a pilot's career? I'd rather learn that being short and nerdy looking hinders a pilot's career now than figuring it out in 10 years after I changed careers.

robthree
02-12-2017, 06:41 PM
As long as we're being judgmental in this thread, I doubt most people who look like Rosanne Barr or her male counterpart John Goodman could pass first class medical. Hence, there's a fair explanation why you don't see many pilots who look like Rosanne Barr or John Goodman.

Have you met many senior widebody Captains?

The First Class Medical is not so difficult to pass. Though the sleep apnea screening did make it a bit more rigorous.

robthree
02-12-2017, 07:45 PM
Hypothesis: Race and gender have no bearing on ability to fly an airplane.

Expectation: Statistics will indicate that race and gender of airline pilots will not be statistically different from the general US population.

US Census demographics indicate that roughly 72% of the population is "White", 13% "Black", and 15% other. 49.3% is male, and 50.7% female.

If race and gender play no role in who becomes an airline pilot, we would expect 35% of the seats to be filled by white males, 37% by white females, 6% black males, 7% black females, 7% other males, and 8% other females.

Using the UA 2016 newhire data poor pilot posted, white males are over represented by more than double, black males are almost proportionally represented, other races are underrepresented by half, and only 1/6th of the expected number of women are being hired.


Of course this data does not really answer the hypothesis that race and gender do not predict flying ability, but given the enormous gulf between the general population and who is being hired, it is obvious that either gender does predict flying ability, or there are structural issues that deter women from beginning and completing flight training and continuing in the career to the point where they will be hired by a major airline.

"Structural issues" is "sexism" - both the overt kind amply demonstrated in this thread i.e. "all female pilots are bad pilots", and the covert sexism of expected or encouraged gender roles i.e. "girls play with dolls, not airplanes". Or perhaps a general impression that the flight deck is an environment where chauvinism and the hostile work environment that comes with it is still tolerated deters a significant number of women from joining the profession in the first place.



Anecdotally, my experience in the cockpit is similar. I can only recall one incident in my entire career where a pilot said something overtly racist. But denigrating women, as pilots or just generally, is more common than complaining about management, union reps, crew meals, layover hotels, pairings, AND politics, combined.

popcorn
02-16-2017, 02:32 PM
Great post Rob.

Otterbox
02-16-2017, 04:32 PM
Hypothesis: Race and gender have no bearing on ability to fly an airplane.

Expectation: Statistics will indicate that race and gender of airline pilots will not be statistically different from the general US population.

US Census demographics indicate that roughly 72% of the population is "White", 13% "Black", and 15% other. 49.3% is male, and 50.7% female.

If race and gender play no role in who becomes an airline pilot, we would expect 35% of the seats to be filled by white males, 37% by white females, 6% black males, 7% black females, 7% other males, and 8% other females.

Using the UA 2016 newhire data poor pilot posted, white males are over represented by more than double, black males are almost proportionally represented, other races are underrepresented by half, and only 1/6th of the expected number of women are being hired.


Of course this data does not really answer the hypothesis that race and gender do not predict flying ability, but given the enormous gulf between the general population and who is being hired, it is obvious that either gender does predict flying ability, or there are structural issues that deter women from beginning and completing flight training and continuing in the career to the point where they will be hired by a major airline.

"Structural issues" is "sexism" - both the overt kind amply demonstrated in this thread i.e. "all female pilots are bad pilots", and the covert sexism of expected or encouraged gender roles i.e. "girls play with dolls, not airplanes". Or perhaps a general impression that the flight deck is an environment where chauvinism and the hostile work environment that comes with it is still tolerated deters a significant number of women from joining the profession in the first place.



Anecdotally, my experience in the cockpit is similar. I can only recall one incident in my entire career where a pilot said something overtly racist. But denigrating women, as pilots or just generally, is more common than complaining about management, union reps, crew meals, layover hotels, pairings, AND politics, combined.

It's interesting that in a career field where 90%+ folks are men and 90%+ are white that in a lot of cases when someone who isn't white or isn't a man gets hired hired "sooner" or has an class date "earlier" etc. than a white male, that the comment is made that it's because they're a "She" or because they're (insert non- white race, and/ or sexual orientation here).

Yet those types of comments don't meet with much resistance, and instead momentum gains when guys get up in arms over the idea that they're being discriminated against because the relative % of minority applicants accepted for a job than your average white male that makes up 90%+ of the pilot population.

It seems like prejudice is still an issue.

GogglesPisano
02-16-2017, 05:31 PM
Hypothesis: Race and gender have no bearing on ability to fly an airplane.

Expectation: Statistics will indicate that race and gender of airline pilots will not be statistically different from the general US population.

US Census demographics indicate that roughly 72% of the population is "White", 13% "Black", and 15% other. 49.3% is male, and 50.7% female.

If race and gender play no role in who becomes an airline pilot, we would expect 35% of the seats to be filled by white males, 37% by white females, 6% black males, 7% black females, 7% other males, and 8% other females.

Using the UA 2016 newhire data poor pilot posted, white males are over represented by more than double, black males are almost proportionally represented, other races are underrepresented by half, and only 1/6th of the expected number of women are being hired.


Of course this data does not really answer the hypothesis that race and gender do not predict flying ability, but given the enormous gulf between the general population and who is being hired, it is obvious that either gender does predict flying ability, or there are structural issues that deter women from beginning and completing flight training and continuing in the career to the point where they will be hired by a major airline.

"Structural issues" is "sexism" - both the overt kind amply demonstrated in this thread i.e. "all female pilots are bad pilots", and the covert sexism of expected or encouraged gender roles i.e. "girls play with dolls, not airplanes". Or perhaps a general impression that the flight deck is an environment where chauvinism and the hostile work environment that comes with it is still tolerated deters a significant number of women from joining the profession in the first place.



Anecdotally, my experience in the cockpit is similar. I can only recall one incident in my entire career where a pilot said something overtly racist. But denigrating women, as pilots or just generally, is more common than complaining about management, union reps, crew meals, layover hotels, pairings, AND politics, combined.

Have you ever considered the fact that women may not be as interested in this career as men are? Women are over-represented in teaching, nursing and (judging by law school demographics) they'll soon be over-represented in the legal profession. Is this institutional sexism? Should we promote these careers to males? She would engineer the system so that men have a higher success rate at interviews?

I'd be interested to see the following statistic: Take a snapshot of 100 people who start professional flight training on day 1. 8 years later what percentage of women in that class will have secured position at a premier airline vs the percentage of men who started on the same day. That will answer the question that is pregnant within this whole thread.

TonyC
02-16-2017, 05:49 PM
Hypothesis: Gender has no bearing on ability to _________________.

Expectation: Statistics will indicate that gender of _________________s will not be statistically different from the general US population.

US Census demographics indicate that roughly 49.3% of the population is male, and 50.7% female.

If race and gender play no role in who becomes a/an _________________, we would expect 49.3% of the positions to be filled by males and 50.7% by females.


[adapted, liberties taken]



According to the United States Department of Labor, the leading Occupations of Employed Women for 2009 are secretaries, nurses, teachers and cashiers, in that order.

96.8% of secretaries and administrative assistants are women.

92% of registered nurses are women

81.9% of elementary and middle school teachers are women

74.4% of cashiers are women

88.5% of nursing, psychiatric and home health aides are women

71.6% of waiters and waitresses are women

89.9% of maids and housekeeping cleaners are women

67.9% of customer service representatives are women

95.1% of child-care workers are women

92.3% of bookkeeping, accounting, and auditing clerks are women

95.1% of receptionists and information clerks are women

71.3% of first-line supervisors/managers of office and administrative support are women

91.6% of teacher assistants are women

82% of office clerks, general, are women

85.2% of personal and home care aides are women




Where is the outrage?






.

TonyC
02-16-2017, 05:52 PM
That will answer the question that is pregnant within this whole thread.




Now you've done it. :D






.

GogglesPisano
02-16-2017, 05:54 PM
Now you've done it. :D






.

See what I did there, eh?:cool:

popcorn
02-17-2017, 07:32 AM
Have you ever considered the fact that women may not be as interested in this career as men are? Women are over-represented in teaching, nursing and (judging by law school demographics) they'll soon be over-represented in the legal profession. Is this institutional sexism? Should we promote these careers to males? She would engineer the system so that men have a higher success rate at interviews?

I'd be interested to see the following statistic: Take a snapshot of 100 people who start professional flight training on day 1. 8 years later what percentage of women in that class will have secured position at a premier airline vs the percentage of men who started on the same day. That will answer the question that is pregnant within this whole thread.

REALLY? Ya think that might have something to do with it? That's a huge reason why women have a glass ceiling. You knock your wife/girlfriend up, then keep working and going to the bar with your buddies. She ends up taking 5 years off work. Don't be a pig.

Learflyer
02-17-2017, 09:01 AM
REALLY? Ya think that might have something to do with it? That's a huge reason why women have a glass ceiling. You knock your wife/girlfriend up, then keep working and going to the bar with your buddies. She ends up taking 5 years off work. Don't be a pig.



What? The guy used the word "pregnant." You freak! He's not allowed to use that term?

ItnStln
02-17-2017, 09:16 AM
[adapted, liberties taken]



According to the United States Department of Labor, the leading Occupations of Employed Women for 2009 are secretaries, nurses, teachers and cashiers, in that order.

96.8% of secretaries and administrative assistants are women.

92% of registered nurses are women

81.9% of elementary and middle school teachers are women

74.4% of cashiers are women

88.5% of nursing, psychiatric and home health aides are women

71.6% of waiters and waitresses are women

89.9% of maids and housekeeping cleaners are women

67.9% of customer service representatives are women

95.1% of child-care workers are women

92.3% of bookkeeping, accounting, and auditing clerks are women

95.1% of receptionists and information clerks are women

71.3% of first-line supervisors/managers of office and administrative support are women

91.6% of teacher assistants are women

82% of office clerks, general, are women

85.2% of personal and home care aides are women




Where is the outrage?






.
Exactly! I demand preferential treatment for men as they are the minority now. Women make up 50.2℅ of the US population, so men are obviously not the minority.

ItnStln
02-17-2017, 09:20 AM
REALLY? Ya think that might have something to do with it? That's a huge reason why women have a glass ceiling. You knock your wife/girlfriend up, then keep working and going to the bar with your buddies. She ends up taking 5 years off work. Don't be a pig.

Women aren't required to have children. Show me where, required by law, women are required to have children. If they get "knocked up" as you put it, and I find that term offensive, who says they are required to have said child? No one! If they do, that's a choice that they make, and must live with! If you only knew the arrangement my fiance and I made when we thought she was pregnant, you'd be surprised.

ItnStln
02-17-2017, 09:20 AM
What? The guy used the word "pregnant." You freak! He's not allowed to use that term?
Apparently not!

GogglesPisano
02-17-2017, 09:50 AM
REALLY? Ya think that might have something to do with it? That's a huge reason why women have a glass ceiling. You knock your wife/girlfriend up, then keep working and going to the bar with your buddies. She ends up taking 5 years off work. Don't be a pig.

Is it coming as a shock to you that there are multiple definitions of the same word?

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pregnant

BTW, even if pregnancy (in the biological sense) enters into the equation, how exactly, should this biological impact on earnings/career progression be remedied?

Whiplash6
02-17-2017, 09:56 AM
Is it coming as a shock to you that there are multiple definitions of the same word?

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pregnant

BTW, even if pregnancy (in the biological sense) enters into the equation, how exactly, should this biological impact on earnings/career progression be remedied?

Simple. Have the men birth the children and the women dig the ditches and mine the coal.

GogglesPisano
02-17-2017, 10:00 AM
You knock your wife/girlfriend up, then keep working and going to the bar with your buddies. .

You must not be married.

ItnStln
02-17-2017, 10:04 AM
You must not be married.
Apparently she isn't.

John Carr
02-20-2017, 12:16 PM
REALLY? Ya think that might have something to do with it? That's a huge reason why women have a glass ceiling. You knock your wife/girlfriend up, then keep working and going to the bar with your buddies. She ends up taking 5 years off work. Don't be a pig.

Did someone make a bad choice when choosing their spouse and are now bitter/angry about it and vent that frustration on the ENTIRE male population?

galaxy flyer
02-20-2017, 01:08 PM
[adapted, liberties taken]



According to the United States Department of Labor, the leading Occupations of Employed Women for 2009 are secretaries, nurses, teachers and cashiers, in that order.

96.8% of secretaries and administrative assistants are women.

92% of registered nurses are women

81.9% of elementary and middle school teachers are women

74.4% of cashiers are women

88.5% of nursing, psychiatric and home health aides are women

71.6% of waiters and waitresses are women

89.9% of maids and housekeeping cleaners are women

67.9% of customer service representatives are women

95.1% of child-care workers are women

92.3% of bookkeeping, accounting, and auditing clerks are women

95.1% of receptionists and information clerks are women

71.3% of first-line supervisors/managers of office and administrative support are women

91.6% of teacher assistants are women

82% of office clerks, general, are women

85.2% of personal and home care aides are women




Where is the outrage?






.

That list has one thing in common--indoor work that frequently involves interpersonal skills.


GF

Bellanca
02-24-2017, 10:10 AM
That list has one thing in common--indoor work that frequently involves interpersonal skills.


GF

That, and most of these jobs mentioned are usually working under or as assistants to people in careers that are predominantly male careers...

Example: look at any accounting firm. The majority of receptionists, assistants, lower-level accountants may be women, but look at the high-paying jobs like CPAs and partners, the vast majority of those are men.

Bellanca
02-24-2017, 10:18 AM
I see a lot of outrage over women and minority hiring preferences, that is supposedly going on currently at the majors. If you look at the Delta and United hiring stats that ALPA publishes, their classes are about 7% female. The regional pilot population is about 6% female. 1% difference isn't usually considered to be statistically significant.

Now what about legacy hires (children of major airline pilots, checkairman, etc). Those people seem to have a huge leg up over anyone, and people rarely complain about that. It seems like a lot of low-time d*bags and d*p$h*ts that have moved up from my airline (the ones captains hate flying with, who have an entitled attitude and poor work ethic) have one thing in common: daddy or uncle or close family friend is someone of influence at Delta, United, AA, etc. It seems to me being born with a good connection at the airlines helps 10x more than being born female or a minority when it comes to getting on at a major airline.

GogglesPisano
02-24-2017, 01:06 PM
I see a lot of outrage over women and minority hiring preferences, that is supposedly going on currently at the majors. If you look at the Delta and United hiring stats that ALPA publishes, their classes are about 7% female. The regional pilot population is about 6% female. 1% difference isn't usually considered to be statistically significant.

Now what about legacy hires (children of major airline pilots, checkairman, etc). Those people seem to have a huge leg up over anyone, and people rarely complain about that. It seems like a lot of low-time d*bags and d*p$h*ts that have moved up from my airline (the ones captains hate flying with, who have an entitled attitude and poor work ethic) have one thing in common: daddy or uncle or close family friend is someone of influence at Delta, United, AA, etc. It seems to me being born with a good connection at the airlines helps 10x more than being born female or a minority when it comes to getting on at a major airline.

This is not the case at Delta. Even CP's can't don't have any extra pull with Pilot Selection. Otherwise I agree, "legacy" admissions at universities or "legacy" hirings at companies are as bad as affirmative action.

HercDriver130
03-05-2017, 06:59 AM
This is not the case at Delta. Even CP's can't don't have any extra pull with Pilot Selection. Otherwise I agree, "legacy" admissions at universities or "legacy" hirings at companies are as bad as affirmative action.

THIS ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ i currently have 5 LORs at DELTA including a past system CP.... nada....

Learflyer
03-05-2017, 12:07 PM
THIS ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ i currently have 5 LORs at DELTA including a past system CP.... nada....

There's a woman I know that started flying in 2011...I mean started taking lessons who is now at Delta. No regionals. No nothing. Just a tremendous amount of girl power!:rolleyes:

ItnStln
03-05-2017, 12:35 PM
There's a woman I know that started flying in 2011...I mean started taking lessons who is now at Delta. No regionals. No nothing. Just a tremendous amount of girl power!:rolleyes:
It's funny how that happens

GogglesPisano
03-05-2017, 04:12 PM
There's a woman I know that started flying in 2011...I mean started taking lessons who is now at Delta. No regionals. No nothing. Just a tremendous amount of girl power!:rolleyes:

Deleted (Laced with too much acerbic wit.)

HercDriver130
03-07-2017, 12:20 AM
There's a woman I know that started flying in 2011...I mean started taking lessons who is now at Delta. No regionals. No nothing. Just a tremendous amount of girl power!:rolleyes:

Better lucky than good.....

Learflyer
03-07-2017, 03:50 AM
Better lucky than good.....

You nailed it...

overcast
03-10-2017, 11:58 PM
Hercdriver130, DL in the past was very much a buddy system. If you were navy or airforce, you had a good shot. Now you have 5 internal recs, good for you. I have none! Don't know anyone there. Yes, got my app in, for few years now. No word. I guess over 8000 hours, almost half of that on 3 and 4 engined heavy jets, all over the world. I guess I am still not good enough.
Fedex is the same. You need to know 3 people who have flown with you (and apparently flying formation in F18 or F16's count as that). Guess what, I don't know anyone there. So I cannot even apply, yet I was good enough to fly their stuff when they needed extra help.