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View Full Version : Burke Lakefront accident


BD100
12-30-2016, 09:03 AM
Columbus beverage company CEO flying plane that disappeared over Lake Erie:

By Beth Burger & Rick Rouan
The Columbus Dispatch • Friday December 30, 2016 11:55 AM
2168 271 2527

U.S. Coast Guard searches for the Cessna that disappeared from radar after taking off Thursday night from Burke Lakefront Airport in Cleveland. A plane that disappeared over Lake Erie late Thursday night was piloted by the chief executive at a Columbus beverage distributor, his father said Friday morning.

The plane is registered to John T. Fleming, CEO at Superior Beverage Group in Columbus. Fleming, a 46-year-old Dublin resident, was flying the Cessna Citation 525 when it lost radar contact over Lake Erie, his father, John W. Fleming said.

Also aboard the plane was John T. Fleming’s wife, Suzanne, 46, their two sons, 15-year-old John Robert Fleming and 14-year-old Andrew Thomas Fleming, a neighbor and a neighbor’s daughter, he said.

“They think they may have crashed into Lake Erie," he said.

U.S. and Canadian Coast Guards have said they are searching for the Cessna that disappeared from radar after taking off Thursday night from Burke Lakefront Airport in Cleveland.

The U.S. Coast Guard said it was notified at 11:30 p.m. by Burke air traffic control that the Cessna headed to Ohio State University Airport, or Don Scott Field, disappeared shortly after takeoff approximately 2 miles into Lake Erie.

Crews from the Coast Guard Air Station in Detroit sent a MH-65 Dolphin helicopter and a C-130 aircraft from the Joint Rescue Coordination Centre in Trenton, Ontario from the Royal Canadian Air Force, are searching for the plane.

Mr. Fleming said his son ias “an experienced pilot,” but declined to say how long he had been flying.

The family and neighbors were in Cleveland to watch the Cavaliers game against the Boston Celtics on Thursday night as a treat for the holidays, he said. “We’re just in shock,” he said.

Federal records show Fleming's private pilot certificate was last updated in January 2015. It doesn't indicate how long he has been a pilot. He is licensed to fly single engine and multi-engine planes as well as helicopters.

The U.S. Coast Guard held a news conference this morning and said the search continues.

"They've been searching all night," said Petty Officer 2nd Class Chris Yaw, a public affairs specialist based with the 9th District Coast Guard in Cleveland.

A U.S. Coast Guard 140-foot cutter, Bristol Bay, out of Detroit also has joined the search this morning. "(The cutter) will give us a stable platform to search from,"Yaw said.

The Coast Guard is reporting there are winds around 30 knots. The water in the search area is 50 feet.

Winds are expected to die down throughout the day allowing the Coast Guard to send out smaller boats to search the area.

The plane took off from Cleveland just before 11 p.m. Thursday, according to FlightAware - Flight Tracker / Flight Status / Flight Tracking (http://www.flightaware.com), but the website never received data about its arrival. It had left Columbus at about 5:30 p.m. Thursday and arrived in Cleveland at about 6 p.m.

The Cessna 525C is a two-engine plane with 11 seats. Fleming's plane was manufactured in 2012, according to federal records. The plane is registered to Maverick Air LLC, according to Flight Aware.


Makanakis
12-30-2016, 09:33 AM
U.S. Coast Guard, Royal Canadian Air Force search for 6 aboard missing plane off Cleveland (http://aviationtribune.com/safety/us-coast-guard-royal-canadian-air-force-search-6-aboard-missing-plane-off-cleveland/)

cardiomd
12-30-2016, 06:52 PM
Very sad to hear. :( Around time of takeoff:

KBKL 300516Z 28025G32KT 5SM -SN SCT018 BKN028 OVC050 01/M02 A2974 RMK AO2 PK WND 28032/0516 P0000 T00061022
KBKL 300500Z 27024G30KT 8SM -SN SCT016 SCT024 OVC050 01/M02 A2974 RMK AO2 PK WND 27030/0500 P0000 T00111017
KBKL 300453Z 27023G31KT 9SM -SN BKN018 OVC050 01/M02 A2974 RMK AO2 PK WND 26033/0440 SNE0355B42 SLP074 P0000 T00111022 400440006
KBKL 300400Z 26022G31KT 9SM SCT015 BKN023 OVC039 01/M02 A2974 RMK AO2 PK WND 26027/0356 SNE0355 P0000 T00061017
KBKL 300353Z 26025G31KT 8SM -SN BKN013 BKN022 OVC032 01/M02 A2974 RMK AO2 PK WND 26035/0254 SNB0259 SLP076 P0000 T00061017

I wonder if the craft was hangared.

That jet is a lot of airplane for a single private pilot flying in IMC, icing conditions, and at night.


HuggyU2
12-30-2016, 09:23 PM
That jet is a lot of airplane for a single private pilot flying in IMC, icing conditions, and at night.
Do you know his level of experience? Do you know how much training he has accomplished to get to where he is? No?
Neither do I.

I won't judge someone's ability based on the piece of plastic given to them by the FAA.

cardiomd
12-31-2016, 07:44 AM
Do you know his level of experience? Do you know how much training he has accomplished to get to where he is? No?
Neither do I.

I won't judge someone's ability based on the piece of plastic given to them by the FAA.

Yes, read the articles or just do some research. Most recent certificate issued 2015, and a private pilot, not even a commercial pilot. :rolleyes:

That jet is a lot of airplane for ANYBODY flying single pilot IFR.

Hrkdrivr
12-31-2016, 09:54 AM
Do you know his level of experience? Do you know how much training he has accomplished to get to where he is? No?
Neither do I.

I won't judge someone's ability based on the piece of plastic given to them by the FAA.

Yes, read the articles or just do some research. Most recent certificate issued 2015, and a private pilot, not even a commercial pilot. :rolleyes:

That jet is a lot of airplane for ANYBODY flying single pilot IFR.

In order for him to act as PIC the 525, he had to be type-rated in the jet (turbo-jet/fan regardless of MTOW). To earn that type rating, he must have performed to ATP practical test standards, which are well-beyond privilege pilot standards. Additionally, assuming he earned single-pilot privileges in it, the type-ride is even harder. (I'm assuming his wife or whoever was in the right seat wasn't qualified in the jet)

So he can be only private pilot rated, but still have the type. In order to get the type he had to perform to ATP standards, alone, which is no small feat.

Regardless, single pilot IFR is challenging.

rickair7777
12-31-2016, 01:10 PM
Just because somebody got through a checkride once (possibly with heavy coaching) does not mean they are broadly experienced or comfortable in the turbine environment.

I would never let my family fly in a jet piloted by a non-professional pilot. Ever.And I don't care if they have a vanity ATP.

galaxy flyer
12-31-2016, 01:46 PM
In order for him to act as PIC the 525, he had to be type-rated in the jet (turbo-jet/fan regardless of MTOW). To earn that type rating, he must have performed to ATP practical test standards, which are well-beyond privilege pilot standards. Additionally, assuming he earned single-pilot privileges in it, the type-ride is even harder. (I'm assuming his wife or whoever was in the right seat wasn't qualified in the jet)

So he can be only private pilot rated, but still have the type. In order to get the type he had to perform to ATP standards, alone, which is no small feat.

Regardless, single pilot IFR is challenging.

True, but the amount of spatial d training for an ATP. ZERO, nada. USAF did an attempt but until I went thru AIS, I never really received SD training. They had an awesome trainer. The turn out of lighted BKL and the city environment into the black, no horizon, in and out of cloud is a perfect SD setup. I've done it many times and it was briefed and still a bit scary especially when the lake is frozen.

GF

Lucky8888
12-31-2016, 03:46 PM
Yes, read the articles or just do some research. Most recent certificate issued 2015, and a private pilot, not even a commercial pilot. :rolleyes:

That jet is a lot of airplane for ANYBODY flying single pilot IFR.

Nonsense. Several years ago, when I went to FSI for my 525C type rating, there were several private pilot, non less than 1,000 hours. Personally, I didn't think the CJ4 was difficult (or even challenging) at all. But, that's me. In fact, it is easier to fly than most prop twins, IMO. Just my 2 cents worth.

BoilerUP
12-31-2016, 04:07 PM
Yeah...CJs aren't hard to fly single pilot.

badflaps
01-01-2017, 02:26 AM
At my little airport we had an ATP/Big bird jock mangle one up pretty good. What did Eddie Rickittyback say? "Anything in motion is inheirintly dangerous."

HuggyU2
01-01-2017, 03:48 AM
Nvm. Post deleted.
I remembered the analogy of wrestling with a pig.

tomgoodman
01-01-2017, 05:18 AM
I remembered the analogy of wrestling with a pig.

Me too. I always worried that the pig would have more ratings and experience than I did. :D

Av8er1550
01-01-2017, 10:40 AM
Nonsense. Several years ago, when I went to FSI for my 525C type rating, there were several private pilot, non less than 1,000 hours. Personally, I didn't think the CJ4 was difficult (or even challenging) at all. But, that's me. In fact, it is easier to fly than most prop twins, IMO. Just my 2 cents worth.



I agree with this. I flew single pilot freight in a twin and I think that was more to handle than a jet. At least with a jet you can usually climb thru it pretty quick or request to. Some twins you have to try to climb or descend and hope you find warmer air.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

galaxy flyer
01-01-2017, 02:23 PM
I agree with this. I flew single pilot freight in a twin and I think that was more to handle than a jet. At least with a jet you can usually climb thru it pretty quick or request to. Some twins you have to try to climb or descend and hope you find warmer air.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Agreed, a jet is easier to handle mechanically, but staying ahead of it is harder. A rapidly accelerating and climbing jet, restricted to 2,000' by ATC turning into a black hole is very easy to lose control over--spatial disorientation is easy to get and very hard to control if you never experienced it. A couple of thousand hours of single-pilot IFR in fighters, and few hundred of solo check running and dozens of departures from BKL makes me lean toward SD LOC event as the odds-on favorite explanation. Of course, a dual PFD failure is possiblity as is other mechanical problems just less likely.

JohnBurke
01-01-2017, 03:10 PM
The pilot's certificate was issued January 21, 2015. That does not mean it was his initial issue; it was his latest issue. He may have received his initial issue ten or fifteen years ago. The issue date shown on the FAA records reflects as issued with the latest application. If that's when he added the type rating, that's when it was issued...he may have been a pilot much longer.

The decedent had a private pilot certificate, with single engine land and multi engine land ratings, and an instrument airplane rating. He was also rated for rotorcraft, helicopter. He held a type rating P/CE-510S. His third class medical was issued in October of 2015.

My pilot certificate reflects a fairly recent issue, though I received it several decades ago. Going by the date of issue only tells you when the most recent application for a certificate, rating or privilege was made that amended the certificate; it's when it was most recently reissued. It does not speak to the experience level of the pilot. A 26,000 hour pilot with a new type rating a month ago shows an issue date one month ago, even though he's been flying a tad longer.

Books are best not read by their covers any more than wild speculation has a place in aviation.

mooney
01-01-2017, 04:56 PM
To add to what Burke said, you will also get a new "issuance date" simply by paying your $2 online and requesting a new one if yours becomes lost/stolen/illlegible/address change/sex change etc

HuggyU2
01-01-2017, 10:18 PM
The pilot's certificate was issued January 21, 2015. That does not mean it was his initial issue; it was his latest issue. He may have received his initial issue ten or fifteen years ago. The issue date shown on the FAA records reflects as issued with the latest application. If that's when he added the type rating, that's when it was issued...he may have been a pilot much longer.

The decedent had a private pilot certificate, with single engine land and multi engine land ratings, and an instrument airplane rating. He was also rated for rotorcraft, helicopter. He held a type rating P/CE-510S. His third class medical was issued in October of 2015.

My pilot certificate reflects a fairly recent issue, though I received it several decades ago. Going by the date of issue only tells you when the most recent application for a certificate, rating or privilege was made that amended the certificate; it's when it was most recently reissued. It does not speak to the experience level of the pilot. A 26,000 hour pilot with a new type rating a month ago shows an issue date one month ago, even though he's been flying a tad longer.

Books are best not read by their covers any more than wild speculation has a place in aviation.

Just wanted to reiterate what JB posted... primarily for CardioMD.

ShyGuy
01-02-2017, 11:26 AM
Yes, read the articles or just do some research. Most recent certificate issued 2015, and a private pilot, not even a commercial pilot. :rolleyes:

That jet is a lot of airplane for ANYBODY flying single pilot IFR.

Certificate issue dates are meaningless. They change with simple things like adding English proficient or moving your address. I moved and changed my address Dec 2014 and that's what shows as my issue date for the ATP, even though the actual ATP issue (checkride) was Sept 2011.

ShyGuy
01-02-2017, 11:28 AM
Me too. I always worried that the pig would have more ratings and experience than I did. :D

LOL! Always enjoy reading your posts, well done :D

cardiomd
01-02-2017, 11:36 AM
Just wanted to reiterate what JB posted... primarily for CardioMD.

LOL - I never noticed each of my three old certs has a different date! :rolleyes: Thanks Huggy!

I agree with Lucky that turbine management can often be easier than piston props, and modern glass can be great to use and makes things easy... under normal conditions. Things happen much more rapidly in that jet if disorientation or anomalies happen.

A Citation 525 is a lot of airplane for a weekend warrior, particularly under those conditions, and unfortunately looks like he and his family paid an ultimate price. :( It was only a 2 hour drive. One of my good friends who is in a similar use pattern has a TBM700 and I worry about him, but he is very fastidious about recurrent training, and got there slowly. From the few times I've been in front it is also a lot of airplane and things can happen fast.

Incidentally I am curious as to why his aircraft was registered to the company through LLC and he was operating it on a private (noncommercial) license, the FAA might be interested in if all flights were "incidental to" etc. In my situation I was legally advised to get the commercial license, so I did -- be very careful with this sort of stuff guys.

dontcare4U
01-02-2017, 11:45 AM
LOL - I never noticed each of my three old certs has a different date! :rolleyes: Thanks Huggy!

I agree with Lucky that turbine management can often be easier than piston props, and modern glass can be great to use and makes things easy... under normal conditions. Things happen much more rapidly in that jet if disorientation or anomalies happen.

A Citation 525 is a lot of airplane for a weekend warrior, particularly under those conditions, and unfortunately looks like he and his family paid an ultimate price. :( It was only a 2 hour drive. One of my good friends who is in a similar use pattern has a TBM700 and I worry about him, but he is very fastidious about recurrent training, and got there slowly. From the few times I've been in front it is also a lot of airplane and things can happen fast.

Incidentally I am curious as to why his aircraft was registered to the company through LLC and he was operating it on a private (noncommercial) license, the FAA might be interested in if all flights were "incidental to" etc. In my situation I was legally advised to get the commercial license, so I did -- be very careful with this sort of stuff guys.

What makes you think he's just a weekend warrior?

2StgTurbine
01-02-2017, 12:29 PM
Incidentally I am curious as to why his aircraft was registered to the company through LLC and he was operating it on a private (noncommercial) license...

Please stop. Please. I find it hard to believe that someone can be this unaware of where they stand in a community. It has been said over and over again to you. What you are on this forum is the equivalent of a lawyer who saw a few episodes of ER telling a surgeon the best way to do a procedure.

It appears you come to the forum just so you can tell yourself that you can hold your own in a conversation with a professional pilot. The few times you say something that is right, it is nothing groundbreaking or remarkable. You merely parroting common concepts taught at every FAASteam event. Those concepts might seem novel to you, but to us, they are aviation safety at is most superficial level.

typeunkwn
01-02-2017, 01:34 PM
LOL - I never noticed each of my three old certs has a different date! :rolleyes: Thanks Huggy!

I agree with Lucky that turbine management can often be easier than piston props, and modern glass can be great to use and makes things easy... under normal conditions. Things happen much more rapidly in that jet if disorientation or anomalies happen.

A Citation 525 is a lot of airplane for a weekend warrior, particularly under those conditions, and unfortunately looks like he and his family paid an ultimate price. :( It was only a 2 hour drive. One of my good friends who is in a similar use pattern has a TBM700 and I worry about him, but he is very fastidious about recurrent training, and got there slowly. From the few times I've been in front it is also a lot of airplane and things can happen fast.

Incidentally I am curious as to why his aircraft was registered to the company through LLC and he was operating it on a private (noncommercial) license, the FAA might be interested in if all flights were "incidental to" etc. In my situation I was legally advised to get the commercial license, so I did -- be very careful with this sort of stuff guys.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQCU36pkH7c

JohnBurke
01-02-2017, 06:27 PM
Things happen much more rapidly in that jet if disorientation or anomalies happen.


You have a lot of time in "that jet?"


A Citation 525 is a lot of airplane for a weekend warrior, particularly under those conditions, and unfortunately looks like he and his family paid an ultimate price.

I know a lot of corporate pilots that only get in the air once a month, maybe twice...no more than the "weekend warrior." This isn't an area you've ever worked, or something you've ever done so you wouldn't know, would you? You make some broad brush assumptions, in the absence of fact. You have no idea what the cause was, let alone that it was the pilot, or that he or his family paid a price for him being a "weekend warrior," or for that matter, that it was a "lot of airplane" for him.

You have no idea if he was a "weekend warrior." He held a pilot certificate. His was at the private level. You hold a pilot certificate. Yours is at the commercial level. Nearly every one else here holds a pilot certificate. The overwhelming majority of us are at the ATP level...still just a pilot certificate. Some of us fly a thousand hours a year, some a hundred, some less. Your condescending attitude is sorrowful at best and nonproductive. Know: don't guess. Thus far, your commentary is clearly in ignorance and strictly guesswork. It's not appropriate in aviation.


Incidentally I am curious as to why his aircraft was registered to the company through LLC and he was operating it on a private (noncommercial) license, the FAA might be interested in if all flights were "incidental to" etc. In my situation I was legally advised to get the commercial license, so I did -- be very careful with this sort of stuff guys.

Why would his aircraft be registered through a limited liability corporation? For liability purposes. Did you not think that through? Also for tax purposes. I suspect you understand how that works.

Pilot engages in noncommercial business flights with his family, and you're trying to backseat lawyer his operation based on your complete lack of knowledge of his arrangement, decision making, or circumstance, and you're doing it in a thread about an aircraft mishap? Focus.

Yes, read the articles or just do some research. Most recent certificate issued 2015, and a private pilot, not even a commercial pilot. :rolleyes:


When you're done rolling your eyes, can you explain the difference between a private pilot certificate and a commercial? A couple of maneuvers on a practical test. A few hours difference, meaningless if the private pilot has the necessary experience to apply for a commercial. For all you know, the private pilot in this case may have had the experience necessary to apply for an ATP certificate.

We've established that the most recent certificate issue was 2015; do you know why it was issued in 2015? When he added the type? When he applied for a replacement? When he added his helicopter? His instrument rating? His multi rating? We don't know.

He performed to ATP standards for a type rating, which is required regardless of one's level of certification.


That jet is a lot of airplane for ANYBODY flying single pilot IFR.

Based on your experience with the "jet," or based on your experience in your Cessna 182?

Single pilot IFR is one of the greatest challenges a pilot can face; it's certainly among the most demanding of any flying, regardless of the aircraft type. It's simplified somewhat with a "jet," largely because more options are available, better equipment is available, and greater performance is available. The Citation is one of the few "jets" that are certificated for single pilot operations and for which pilots may be rated for single pilot operation. This is not by accident, nor a rush designation.

Given the lack of information presently available, it may be premature to begin demonizing the pilot when we have no idea what happened during the flight. We only know that the aircraft disappeared and has incurred a mishap. What took place in the interim is unknown. There may be a reason why there's an investigative process, and why the NTSB doesn't simply call CardioMD to provide the answer based on his internet "research."

FlyJSH
01-02-2017, 07:24 PM
Rather than judge what we do not know (his skills except as reported by the press !HAH!), why not take a moment to wish his loved ones well.

THEN, after that, we, as pilots, can discuss what might have happened without assuming he was a dumb guy who bought a turbine doctor killer. Because if that was all it was, there is nothing to learn and nothing to discuss.... unless you are trying to prove your hooha is bigger.


Single pilot, IFR, in ice is dicey. Been there, done that, refused many. Crashes in that environment remind me if faced with it, take a moment, think, and decide ... do I really want to take the risk.

Flightcap
01-03-2017, 09:29 AM
I took many a student to BKL just to show them the reality of the black hole effect. A night-time turn to the north can be frightening to the unfamiliar and local pilot alike under the right conditions. The possibility for SD is real regardless of hours or training. Condolences to the friends and family of those poor folks.

dontcare4U
01-03-2017, 09:56 AM
You have a lot of time in "that jet?"



I know a lot of corporate pilots that only get in the air once a month, maybe twice...no more than the "weekend warrior." This isn't an area you've ever worked, or something you've ever done so you wouldn't know, would you? You make some broad brush assumptions, in the absence of fact. You have no idea what the cause was, let alone that it was the pilot, or that he or his family paid a price for him being a "weekend warrior," or for that matter, that it was a "lot of airplane" for him.

You have no idea if he was a "weekend warrior." He held a pilot certificate. His was at the private level. You hold a pilot certificate. Yours is at the commercial level. Nearly every one else here holds a pilot certificate. The overwhelming majority of us are at the ATP level...still just a pilot certificate. Some of us fly a thousand hours a year, some a hundred, some less. Your condescending attitude is sorrowful at best and nonproductive. Know: don't guess. Thus far, your commentary is clearly in ignorance and strictly guesswork. It's not appropriate in aviation.



Why would his aircraft be registered through a limited liability corporation? For liability purposes. Did you not think that through? Also for tax purposes. I suspect you understand how that works.

Pilot engages in noncommercial business flights with his family, and you're trying to backseat lawyer his operation based on your complete lack of knowledge of his arrangement, decision making, or circumstance, and you're doing it in a thread about an aircraft mishap? Focus.



When you're done rolling your eyes, can you explain the difference between a private pilot certificate and a commercial? A couple of maneuvers on a practical test. A few hours difference, meaningless if the private pilot has the necessary experience to apply for a commercial. For all you know, the private pilot in this case may have had the experience necessary to apply for an ATP certificate.

We've established that the most recent certificate issue was 2015; do you know why it was issued in 2015? When he added the type? When he applied for a replacement? When he added his helicopter? His instrument rating? His multi rating? We don't know.

He performed to ATP standards for a type rating, which is required regardless of one's level of certification.



Based on your experience with the "jet," or based on your experience in your Cessna 182?

Single pilot IFR is one of the greatest challenges a pilot can face; it's certainly among the most demanding of any flying, regardless of the aircraft type. It's simplified somewhat with a "jet," largely because more options are available, better equipment is available, and greater performance is available. The Citation is one of the few "jets" that are certificated for single pilot operations and for which pilots may be rated for single pilot operation. This is not by accident, nor a rush designation.

Given the lack of information presently available, it may be premature to begin demonizing the pilot when we have no idea what happened during the flight. We only know that the aircraft disappeared and has incurred a mishap. What took place in the interim is unknown. There may be a reason why there's an investigative process, and why the NTSB doesn't simply call CardioMD to provide the answer based on his internet "research."

Very well said!!

popcorn
01-05-2017, 08:42 AM
Have they even found the plane yet? The media has already lost interest.

BD100
01-05-2017, 10:52 AM
CLEVELAND - According to Thursday's update from the city of Cleveland, the search continues for the plane missing in Lake Erie last Thursday.

Additional debris has been retrieved along the shoreline east of Burke Lakefront Airport, according to the update. That debris has not yet been confirmed as relevant to this investigation.

Shoreline searches will continue as long as daylight allows.

The Cleveland Division of Police is working with the Federal Aviation Administration and the National Transportation Safety Board on this active investigation. A vessel was deployed in the Cleveland harbor Wednesday afternoon with a National Transportation Safety Board technician and their equipment, the underwater locator beacon. Due to the weather conditions Wednesday, the equipment did not receive any transmissions from the aircraft

According to the city's update, this underwater locator beacon was deployed to the search grid again today (Thursday) “The NTSB is here to provide whatever assistance we can for search and recovery," said Tim Sorensen, Aviation Accident Investigator from the NTSB. “Our main goal is investigating the circumstances and cause of the accident. The equipment is designed to assist in locating the Cockpit Voice Recorder, which would aid us in this investigation.”

The photo above shows the light green area that was searched on Day 1, Sunday, Jan. 1. The dark green area was searched on the 2nd day, Monday, Jan. 2nd. The blue area was searched on day 3, Tuesday, Jan. 3rd and is also where the vessel headed to today.

The U.S. Geological Survey’s (USGS) “Muskie” has arrived in Cleveland to assist with search and recovery efforts. Crews from the Cleveland Division of Fire and the NTSB were deployed with USGS crews onboard.

Also, on board the Muskie is a sector drop sonar, a diver and the NTSB equipment.

The underwater locator beacon detector will be deployed in search of a transmission from the Cockpit Voice Recorder.

The United States Coast Guard also has a 25-foot vessel on standby to assist, and the Cleveland Metroparks Zodiac that had been deployed earlier is now out of the water, as of Thursday afternoon.

The Army Corps of Engineers is on standby to deploy a tug if needed.

According to the update, water conditions Thursday are westward winds at 15-25 knots; waves between 4-6 feet, subsiding later to 1-3 feet; with freezing spray and snow showers. The United States Geological Survey’s (USGS) 75-foot research vessel, the “Muskie” is on its way from Huron to Cleveland. This vessel is equipped to handle rougher seas and can move at speeds slow enough to use the NTSB’s equipment in today’s water conditions, according to the news release.

City officials said the Muskie will be deployed from the United States Coast Guard station, where it will dock while in Cleveland. It will head to the grid search area with the NTSB technician and equipment, a diver and sonar equipment.

The city also noted that the United States Coast Guard has a 25-foot vessel on standby to assist and the Cleveland Metroparks have deployed the Zodiac to assist with shoreline debris collection. Other partner agencies are on standby to assist as needed and as weather conditions allow.

As they did on Wednesday, foot patrols consisting of Cleveland Divisions of Police and Fire, Cleveland Metroparks Rangers and volunteers from the Red Cross and mounted units from Cleveland Division of Police and the Metroparks’ rangers will search the shoreline east of Burke Lakefront Airport from E. 72nd Street to East 185th Street, according to the update.

They will dispatch units to respond to other areas if debris is reported. As weather conditions permit, the Cleveland Division of Police helicopter will search the shoreline by air.

Wednesday's update:

cardiomd
01-08-2017, 12:16 PM
CVR and remains located. Very sad. They haven't brought the recorder up yet, hope it is still intact.

Lake Erie plane crash: Voice recorder, remains recovered - CNN.com (http://www.cnn.com/2017/01/06/us/lake-erie-plane-search/)

Please stop. Please. I find it hard to believe that someone can be this unaware of where they stand in a community. It has been said over and over again to you. What you are on this forum is the equivalent of a lawyer who saw a few episodes of ER telling a surgeon the best way to do a procedure.

Sigh, been over this before. If you don't have anything to contribute, then don't reply with "you can't know anything as a doc blah blah blah." Please stop. :rolleyes: If you have anything to add to the issue, then go ahead. If not, don't post. It's that simple.

The situation this guy was in, who is NOT A PRO PILOT, is one a lot of us non-pro pilots find ourselves in, who fly extensively. His situation is a lot more similar to mine than an airline pilot.

This guy had a LLC and is a CEO of a company, operating the jet under a private pilot certificate. My warning to others that may think of doing such a thing, is that with any sort of event, you will be explaining your operational history to the FAA. That is unlikely elementary to anybody, let alone the CEO pilot, who went ahead with this arrangement. The tax and operational advantages of the LLC / company arrangement are huge, and operating this above board generally requires a commercial cert, not a private certificate.

If it was all "incidental to" operation, no lawyer in the world would advise you to register the LLC address to the same one as the company, or have any signs of co-mingling.

cardiomd
01-08-2017, 12:38 PM
Certificate issue dates are meaningless. They change with simple things like adding English proficient or moving your address. I moved and changed my address Dec 2014 and that's what shows as my issue date for the ATP, even though the actual ATP issue (checkride) was Sept 2011.

That is correct - why I also noted private was highest certificate issue. Certificate issue just means just that, one was mailed to you. Would hope that every pilot including private / commercial ones know this.


What makes you think he's just a weekend warrior?

It is really hard for any CEO not to be. He runs a beverage company full time, a demanding position that does not require constant travel. Has less than 1000 hours TT, and a private certificate, making a 15 minute flight in a jet he acquired around 3 months prior, in icing conditions in the dark.


The operator made an LLC called "Maverick Air, LLC." Ended up like Goose. :(


Those are facts, and I'll leave any judging to the deities and the outcomes of operating, but it is amusing to watch the usual knuckleheads try to warp horse sense (maybe he was just really, really, really experienced private pilot? Jets are just really easy to operate?). I get the feeling that if he was a doctor everybody would pounce on his inexperience. ;)

Fly safely folks, and deep condolences to his surviving family.

JohnBurke
01-08-2017, 10:53 PM
Sigh, been over this before. If you don't have anything to contribute, then don't reply with "you can't know anything as a doc blah blah blah." Please stop. :rolleyes: If you have anything to add to the issue, then go ahead. If not, don't post. It's that simple.


Take your own counsel, genius.




The situation this guy was in, who is NOT A PRO PILOT, is one a lot of us non-pro pilots find ourselves in, who fly extensively. His situation is a lot more similar to mine than an airline pilot.


That's right. He wasn't a professional pilot.

Neither are you.


This guy had a LLC and is a CEO of a company, operating the jet under a private pilot certificate. My warning to others that may think of doing such a thing, is that with any sort of event, you will be explaining your operational history to the FAA. That is unlikely elementary to anybody, let alone the CEO pilot, who went ahead with this arrangement. The tax and operational advantages of the LLC / company arrangement are huge, and operating this above board generally requires a commercial cert, not a private certificate.

If it was all "incidental to" operation, no lawyer in the world would advise you to register the LLC address to the same one as the company, or have any signs of co-mingling.

There is nothing illegal about a private pilot registering his own airplane to his business, nor operating it on behalf of his business. You're a doctor, not an attorney. You're a doctor, not a professional pilot. You're talking out your backside about things you don't understand, moreover things which are irrelevant. Your assumption and guesswork here is legion.

This is not surprising, coming form you. Keep talking though. The more you post, the worse you appear, and it's at least mildly entertaining. You know nothing about the mishap pilot's qualification beyond his raw certificate date, and you've already fumbled that one. You know nothing about his experience or training. You know nothing about the mishap; at this stage, no one does. You do make a lot of assumptions, though.

You understand the implication of making assumptions, right?


It is really hard for any CEO not to be. He runs a beverage company full time, a demanding position that does not require constant travel. Has less than 1000 hours TT, and a private certificate, making a 15 minute flight in a jet he acquired around 3 months prior, in icing conditions in the dark.


I've flown a damn 747 on 15 minute flights...I've taken them on five minute flights to reposition. The duration of the flight is irrelevant. Do you think he should wait a year before he flies the airplane he bought.

You seem to think that icing conditions present some special qualification. Are you aware that private pilots fly in the dark all the time? How many hours should he have had before undertaking a night flight? How about flying in icing conditions in an aircraft approved for flight in known ice? You're aware that the Citation is a LOT more capable than your 182, right?

He runs a company. This concept does not mean he can't fly an aircraft. You have a full time job outside aviation, too. Never the less, you manage.

A friend of mine is an aviation medical examiner, a long time OBGYN, and runs a family practice. He flies warbirds, takes summers to fight fire, and is one of the best pilots I've ever met. Not a full time pilot, however, and a well established and successful doctor. I would have no problem putting my family in an aircraft with him, and I'd trust my life to him as a medical professional, as well. Having another career does not negate his ability to fly an airplane (he's one of the few people in the world who has deadsticked a Sea Fury to a successful off field landing, following a catastrophic engine failure. How about you?

You're talking out of your depth and making wild assumption in absence of fact.


The operator made an LLC called "Maverick Air, LLC." Ended up like Goose. :(


You've said a lot of idiotic things, but that takes the cake for going complete dumbass.


Those are facts, and I'll leave any judging...

Great. When do you start?


Jets are just really easy to operate?).

You wouldn't know. You haven't had the training necessary to operate a "jet," and you're not type rated either, are you. Tell us again how difficult it is to operate that airplane. Then tell us all about what happened in this event. The NTSB investigation is expensive. Your expertise could save badly needed tax dollars.

Hetman
01-09-2017, 04:18 AM
JB, why do you bother? In another thread, he implied that AF 447 would not have crashed had he been there. You are not going to penetrate that.

JohnBurke
01-12-2017, 06:01 PM
JB, why do you bother? In another thread, he implied that AF 447 would not have crashed had he been there. You are not going to penetrate that.

It probably wouldn't have. He's a doctor, after all.

typeunkwn
01-12-2017, 07:08 PM
He's a doctor, after all.

Hard to believe

kevbo
01-13-2017, 02:46 AM
What is the failure rate of modern instrumentation? Have any of you high timers ever had to rely on the standby horizon? Anyone can have a bad day and lose their head but these virtual reality displays really take the fun out of clouds.

JohnBurke
01-13-2017, 04:24 AM
What is the failure rate of modern instrumentation? Have any of you high timers ever had to rely on the standby horizon? Anyone can have a bad day and lose their head but these virtual reality displays really take the fun out of clouds.

I've had a dark cockpit twice. Two different types of aircraft. It can and does happen.

BD100
01-14-2017, 06:51 PM
Just after 9 a.m. today (Jan. 14), Conneaut Police were contacted by the Pennsylvania State Police regarding human remains found along the Lake Erie shoreline in Conneaut, about 300 yards west of the Pennsylvania state line.
Police tell WKYC that the remains were found by a man walking along the beach in the remote area.
Conneaut Police arrived and found a partially decomposed body of an unidentified adult male, approximately 30 feet south of the Lake Erie water line, according to the Conneaut Police report.
The Ashtabula County Coroner, as well as the Conneaut Police Department Detective Division arrived at the scene as well.

Conneaut Police say that the remains were removed to the Cuyahoga County Medical Examiner's Office for an autopsy and identification.
The matter is still under investigation.
WKYC reached out for comment to the Cleveland Mayor's Office of Communications dealing with the plane recovery operations in Lake Erie north of Burke Lakefront Airport. Crews have been retrieving wreckage and human remains from the crash that occurred Dec. 29 the past few weeks.
They replied, "We were notified that the body was found. There is not a confirmation on whether it is related to this investigation."
The search has been ongoing since the small Cessna 525 Citation plane went missing over Lake Erie shortly after departing Burke Lakefront Airport on Dec. 29.
The plane was flown by John Fleming of Dublin, Ohio. Fleming's wife, Sue, their two sons, Jack and Andrew, and the family's neighbor, Brian Casey, and his daughter, Megan, were also on board the plane.
The group was in Cleveland to attend a Cleveland Cavaliers game and was planning to fly in to The Ohio State University.

cardiomd
01-18-2017, 02:38 PM
JB, why do you bother? In another thread, he implied that AF 447 would not have crashed had he been there. You are not going to penetrate that.

Do you feel you would make the same mistake as Mr. Bonin if your pitot freezes? If so, please stop flying and get some more sim time, for the sake of yourself and your passengers.

Good pilots study the mistakes of others so they don't make the same ones themselves.

Hard to believe

Plonk!

Recovery of further remains ended - some sources report in better weather they may revisit the plane, CVR already recovered and useful. Search over for human remains in Lake Erie plane crash | The Columbus Dispatch (http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/local/2017/01/17/0117-lake-erie-crash-search-ends.html)

JohnBurke
01-18-2017, 06:56 PM
Do you feel you would make the same mistake as Mr. Bonin if your pitot freezes? If so, please stop flying and get some more sim time, for the sake of yourself and your passengers.



When you're done armchair quarterbacking the way you'd handle an abnormal or emergency situation in a large, transport category airplane, perhaps you'll go get experience one, then spout off. Fortunately, you have a few hours in a 182 that gives you an adequate expert base of experience to educate us all.


Good pilots study the mistakes of others so they don't make the same ones themselves.


Oh.

What do you do?


Plonk!


What might you have said without a college degree?

2StgTurbine
01-18-2017, 07:33 PM
Do you feel you would make the same mistake as Mr. Bonin if your pitot freezes? If so, please stop flying and get some more sim time, for the sake of yourself and your passengers

It is comments like this that prove you don't have enough experience to make such emphatic statements. You yourself even commented about how much of a "handful" a single engine turboprop could be. An aerodynamically clean aircraft with powerful jet engines at takeoff power handles much more differently than a 182.

The state of a 182 will barely change in the amount of time it takes to recognize that: A. You have unreliable instrumentation, B. Determine which instruments are providing valid information, C. Realize that what your body is telling is a lie, and D. recover. Meanwhile, a jet will easily jet into an extremely high descent rate that will require unusually large control inputs to stop.

Unreliable instrumentation is one of the hardest things to recover from. They lead you down a path of confidence that is hard to break. The characteristics that it would take to recover at the first sign of unreliable instrumentation would also cause you to make drastic changes when you or the other pilot makes a minor automation error. 99% of emergencies require pilots to spend time verifying and evaluating the failure, not reacting. I have seen unreliable instrumentation get the better of plenty of experienced pilots even when it was briefed by the instructor an hour before.

You were right that GOOD pilots study the mistakes of others, but pilots with enough EXPERIENCE in human factors also realize that even with the benefit of hindsight, we can make the same errors.

Hetman
01-18-2017, 07:55 PM
See what I mean? No possibility of making any headway against that.

https://media.giphy.com/media/no2qfQl6tvQwo/giphy.gif

typeunkwn
01-19-2017, 03:32 PM
Do you feel you would make the same mistake as Mr. Bonin if your pitot freezes? If so, please stop flying and get some more sim time, for the sake of yourself and your passengers.

Good pilots study the mistakes of others so they don't make the same ones themselves. [/URL]

It is extremely alarming to me that you project the same textbook hazardous attitudes that you are so quick to misdiagnose and condemn as being the primary contributing factor in an accident you know nothing about, and in an aircraft in which you have 0.0 hours.

727C47
01-19-2017, 03:47 PM
You guys crack me up , the good Dr. actually makes some cogent points but you are all so spring loaded to pounce that you can't comprehend this. He actually brings a different and welcome perspective to these forums, get over yourselves. Pilots kill themselves all the time in this vocation of ours, some have 1000 hours, some have 10,000 , it is imperative that we learn from these mishaps lest they perpetuate. I'm willing to hear, listen, and perhaps learn from all parties in these discussions. No one has a lock on all the answers, hence the existence of these forums. Ok, end of rave. Carry on.

JohnBurke
01-19-2017, 06:27 PM
...but you are all so spring loaded to pounce...

No. Plonk!

RhinoPherret
01-20-2017, 04:06 AM
You guys crack me up , the good Dr. actually makes some cogent points but you are all so spring loaded to pounce that you can't comprehend this. He actually brings a different and welcome perspective to these forums, get over yourselves. Pilots kill themselves all the time in this vocation of ours, some have 1000 hours, some have 10,000 , it is imperative that we learn from these mishaps lest they perpetuate. I'm willing to hear, listen, and perhaps learn from all parties in these discussions. No one has a lock on all the answers, hence the existence of these forums. Ok, end of rave. Carry on.

Ah. A paid spokesperson. ;)

To use the apparent current MD vernacular; I'll double that No.
Plonk!

RadialGal
01-20-2017, 09:22 PM
The operator made an LLC called "Maverick Air, LLC." Ended up like Goose. :(


Chirst on a Cracker........I know Medical folks are a tad morbid re: Death.....but........that quote is full blown Ass Hat Doctor...for Shame!

My first flying gig was flight instructing out of Burke. I got 4 Doctor's their Private Certs; 2 of them Surgeons at the Cleveland Clinic. They all had VERY strong egos, just like many pilots; they all were checklist oriented, a trend in modern medicine...especially in Surgery. My Bachelors Degree is PreMed; had planned on being a Doctor until I spent a lot of time amongst Doctors. I say this because I think I can see both your side as a Doctor/Pilot.... and my/our side as an ATP.

You think we don't know "pilot error," is, BY FAR, the overwhelming cause of fatal crashes?? Of course we do! You think we all don't go over crashes in our minds, learning from dead friends and the CVR's of strangers? We have all lost friends. I lost my best friend to a stupid mistake he made with a student onboard. He not only paid for his mistake, but took and innocent student with him.

When my Father asked me if I was afraid of dying in a plane, I honestly answered him, "No, but I am afraid a mistake I make will kill someone." Pilots and Doctors hold lives in their hands. One wrong move and someone else often pays the price. Try and have a little more empathy in your responses...I bet most guys here have no idea how much of your income goes to Malpractice Insurance. A dark Parallel to what happens when you or we make the wrong call.

Blue Skies,

RadialGal

DC8DRIVER
01-21-2017, 11:32 AM
The operator made an LLC called "Maverick Air, LLC." Ended up like Goose. :(

... deep condolences to his surviving family.

Interesting juxtaposition mocking their death and then offering condolences ...

rickair7777
01-21-2017, 01:36 PM
Well "Maverick" has connotations beyond the movie top gun. The company might have existed before the movie, and if not the name was probably not an allusion to the movie.

METO Guido
01-22-2017, 04:54 PM
Well "Maverick" has connotations beyond the movie top gun. The company might have existed before the movie, and if not the name was probably not an allusion to the movie.

Straying from the thread but...one of my favorite lines.

"A good pilot is always compelled to always evaluate what’s happened, so he can apply what he’s learned."

Viper

rickair7777
01-26-2017, 08:28 AM
Straying from the thread but...one of my favorite lines.

"A good pilot is always compelled to always evaluate what’s happened, so he can apply what he’s learned."

Viper

Another way of saying it: If you're fortunate enough to survive your own mistakes, might as well learn from them.

Better of course to learn from the mistakes of others.

METO Guido
01-26-2017, 04:47 PM
Another way of saying it: If you're fortunate enough to survive your own mistakes, might as well learn from them.

Better of course to learn from the mistakes of others.
Agreed.

What I gather from his advice is acknowledgement, virtually every assignment will contain error/errors somewhere..typically minor, easily identified and corrected. On occasion, complexities result in a resolution process less well managed. It is now we have opportunity to look back & objectively evaluate our performance, removed from the moment, to consider whatever improvement deemed necessary. Flogging, no. Dispassionate self grading, always.

cardiomd
02-02-2017, 06:35 PM
You guys crack me up , the good Dr. actually makes some cogent points but you are all so spring loaded to pounce that you can't comprehend this. He actually brings a different and welcome perspective to these forums, get over yourselves. Pilots kill themselves all the time in this vocation of ours, some have 1000 hours, some have 10,000 , it is imperative that we learn from these mishaps lest they perpetuate. I'm willing to hear, listen, and perhaps learn from all parties in these discussions. No one has a lock on all the answers, hence the existence of these forums. Ok, end of rave. Carry on.

Thanks, 727. I appreciate your always sane input. I believe (hope?) it is only the extremely vocal bottom few who really have an inability to parse what I'm saying. It is not that controversial. By all objective measures that jet is a lot of plane for a newly rated pilot. Many of you have probably heard me on the radio as I travel back and forth across this great country of ours, and in the air, we are all pilots.

Chirst on a Cracker........I know Medical folks are a tad morbid re: Death.....but........that quote is full blown Ass Hat Doctor...for Shame!


Interesting juxtaposition mocking their death and then offering condolences ...

Ok point taken. I sometimes forget I'm not dealing with similar professionals to me, in the medical field there is a huge amount of black humor and it is not disrespectful, it is just a way to get people to say what they are all thinking in a disarming way, otherwise stress can eat you up. Where did I mock his death? I didn't - I offered condolences. We should all recognize that; we all wanted to be Maverick, I liked Top Gun as a young adult, and so did this guy. But his ego wrote a check that his body couldn't ca... ok I'll stop.

As 727 said 100 or 10000 hours you can learn from that.

And RadialGal, many would consider blasphemy worse than jokes about our own mortality... matter of perspective I guess.

Well "Maverick" has connotations beyond the movie top gun. The company might have existed before the movie, and if not the name was probably not an allusion to the movie.

Do you honestly believe that?

Anyway, the deceased had his rating a full 21 days before the fatal crash, and as I said purchased it 2 months before. This is a temptation for businessmen who can do these things.

Lake Erie Crash Pilot Was Rookie Flying Own Jet, Says NTSB (http://www.newsmax.com/TheWire/lake-erie-crash-pilot-rookie/2017/01/20/id/769591/)

JohnBurke
02-04-2017, 01:29 PM
By all objective measures that jet is a lot of plane for a newly rated pilot.

We've established that he's not a new pilot. Your assumptions have been in error.

You don't know that he was "newly rated."

You don't know anything about his level of training, instruction, or rating.

You don't know anything about that airplane, nor is your experience adequate to make such an assessment.

The only "objective measure" to "establish" such a things is you, and you're neither credible nor objective, and you've established nothing. You cannot post, it seems, but to tell a lie.

I sometimes forget I'm not dealing with similar professionals to me...

True. You are dealing with professionals. You're on an aviation forum for professional pilots, and those responding to you are professional aviators.

You're not.

You're communicating with professionals, however. Ironically, you're the one who isn't.


Anyway, the deceased had his rating a full 21 days before the fatal crash, and as I said purchased it 2 months before. This is a temptation for businessmen who can do these things.


I know a lot of line pilots who got their type a day or two before they went on the line flying passengers, cargo, etc, domestically and internationally.

Do you have a type rating? Do you know anything about receiving one, the standards required to obtain one, or the fact that one must perform to ATP standards regardless of the level of certification, when obtaining a type rating?

You don't understand that, do you?

rickair7777
02-11-2017, 08:45 AM
I know a lot of line pilots who got their type a day or two before they went on the line flying passengers, cargo, etc, domestically and internationally.



JB,

Those newly typed pilots were on IOE. They had a check airman in the other seat. Once released to the line, they had either an experienced CA to back them up, or in the case of CA's thousands of hours of turbine experience to fall back on.

A brand-new solo jet pilot is not inherently safe. It's frankly one of the least safe things you can do in routine civil aviation.

I have flown with two newly typed jet pilots who could literally not keep the wings level in IMC without the AP. Turn off the AP, instant vertigo and JFK jr. style death-spiral. They didn't catch that in the sim apparently. Good thing I caught it, you can go weeks or months without hand-flying in clouds.

I'm still convinced that private pilots in jets is a real stretch. Insurance companies recognize this and often require IOE like supervision. It should probably be mandatory.

In addition to aviation instructor experience, I've survived decades of hazardous military operations on, above, and under the water in addition to the usual tactical stuff on land. I know hazards when I see them, and this has more in common with night halo, base jumping, and wingsuits than mundane civil aviation.

HuggyU2
02-11-2017, 10:39 AM
I'm still convinced that private pilots in jets is a real stretch.

It sounds to me that you've possibly had a lot more experience in working with owner/pilots in jets than I have... but based on what I've seen, I disagree.

I do hope you and I can meet someday... maybe at Oshkosh... and argue this over a few beers.

rickair7777
02-14-2017, 09:35 AM
It sounds to me that you've possibly had a lot more experience in working with owner/pilots in jets than I have... but based on what I've seen, I disagree.

No my experience is a combination of entry-level RJ pilots, and PPL's in GA and TAA. I'm extrapolating the later into the former.

There are always exceptional individuals in any realm of endeavor, including PPL who own/fly jets, but I don't think the current training system is sufficiently robust to screen for that. If you're not an exceptional PPL, you don't belong in a jet. A mediocre professional pilot can fly jets because he has backup and/or experience. A jet is larger and can carry more pax, and thus can put more people at risk than typical piston aircraft.




I do hope you and I can meet someday... maybe at Oshkosh... and argue this over a few beers.

Love to. I probably need to retire from the Navy first to have time to go to Oshkosh :(

JohnBurke
02-14-2017, 11:02 AM
I've flown with newly typed pilots with zero prior turbojet experience in various aircraft who performed flawlessly. None of them were high time.

The military has a nasty habit of putting very young, very inexperienced pilots in some of the most expensive and highest performance turbojet aircraft that the world has to offer, loading them down with more firepower than the sum total of the second world war, and sending them into combat. Somehow, they manage.

BoilerUP
02-14-2017, 11:11 AM
The military isn't afraid to wash out marginal performers...unlike FlightSafety and CAE.

mainlineAF
02-14-2017, 12:08 PM
I've flown with newly typed pilots with zero prior turbojet experience in various aircraft who performed flawlessly. None of them were high time.

The military has a nasty habit of putting very young, very inexperienced pilots in some of the most expensive and highest performance turbojet aircraft that the world has to offer, loading them down with more firepower than the sum total of the second world war, and sending them into combat. Somehow, they manage.



You can't compare low time military pilots to low time civilians. Two completely different things.

rickair7777
02-14-2017, 01:11 PM
I've flown with newly typed pilots with zero prior turbojet experience in various aircraft who performed flawlessly. None of them were high time.

The military has a nasty habit of putting very young, very inexperienced pilots in some of the most expensive and highest performance turbojet aircraft that the world has to offer, loading them down with more firepower than the sum total of the second world war, and sending them into combat. Somehow, they manage.

The military has standards for admission, and then more standards along the way. You will get little, sometimes zero, remedial training. The military finds those with raw talent and then develops it.

In the civilian world you can keep trying until you run out persistence or money...some folks have more of that than they have innate ability. There are of course exceptional civilian pilots...but they don't have to be.

Also military flying is by no means as safe as civilian flying needs to be.