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View Full Version : PBS VS. Line bidding


Milkman
01-13-2017, 07:12 PM
I'm hoping people can highlight the positives of which they want. Vx FO bidding 75% ish and work 12 days a month. If I need four particular days off in a month there is almost no way I won't get it. You can decide what mix of trips you feel like flying... you always have the potential of getting a dream schedule. Also, our schedules are posted by the 10th. I'm hoping we get something like this as far as scheduling goes


Chuckie
01-13-2017, 08:30 PM
Oh boy, this gon' be good.

https://ecocrap.files.wordpress.com/2014/08/can-of-worms.jpg

greaser
01-13-2017, 09:00 PM
There are a bunch of considerations here.

1. Long flights and work days make productive pairings.
2. 70 (75 flex) line minimum
3. PBS algorithm/implementation... particularly with respect to days when staff will run out (unstacking)
4. Having sufficient staffing to cover scheduled flying with a reasonable minimum credit value

If ANY of the above are changed in a negative way, your cush line is potentially history. Its not a question of PBS vs. line bidding: The entire scheduling and staffing equation and its input variables must be looked at as a whole.

I think the right course is to proceed incrementally, and with caution. I say this coming to VX from a regional that used PBS where the results were quite painful. A situation that resulted in "unstacking" allowed the software to violate seniority. If staffing ran short, there were instances where every day of the month was an 'unstack' day, because the software started to choke and its prime objective is to cover flying! "Here's your line, enjoy!"

We as VX and AS pilots all ought to roll up our sleeves and carefully study what's on the other side of the fence before making demands or selling the farm.


Milkman
01-14-2017, 06:32 AM
Unstacking is supposed to done according to senoirity, and is done that way at vx. Also, if every day was unstacked then it would still just award as usual (trips awarded in senoirity) as long as you have an unstack bid sheet. I've done both line bidding at two companies and pbs at two companies - in my experience there is no comparison for control over schedule/flexibility... pbs has been far better

Flyin1500
01-14-2017, 06:53 AM
Unstacking is supposed to done according to senoirity, and is done that way at vx.

I wish that were the case. Middle seniority lineholders usually get the shaft over the holidays while junior line holders get them off. Big problem with our pbs if you ask me. Regardless of what system we get, it will not matter if the pairings are garbage.

Riverside
01-14-2017, 09:43 AM
PBS is terrible unless you got some sweet language built in.

Milkman
01-14-2017, 09:48 AM
The same is true for any system

Arctichicken
01-14-2017, 11:06 AM
Given the current upper management, middle management (crew planning & scheduling), pairings, work rules (Sec. 25), manning, and the "fly then grieve policy", the company is eyeing huge gains with PBS. If we can clean house (good luck with that btw), PBS can and will work but in this dysfunctional organization, the pilots will once again get the shaft. Think 10-15% efficiency=less pilots required! Alaska has never been properly manned, they do not care much about what our CBA says when push comes to shove, and sure as h*** don't care about how we feel. Spend some time working for the man and you'll see what I'm saying.

Pogey Bait
01-14-2017, 11:32 AM
Virgin here: bid 50%-ish in base. 17 to 18 days off a month, typically get my first or so preferences entered into the computer. PBS does suck.

Arctichicken
01-14-2017, 01:07 PM
Virgin here: bid 50%-ish in base. 17 to 18 days off a month, typically get my first or so preferences entered into the computer. PBS does suck.

Enjoy being Virgin while it lasts because the Eskimo will pop your cherry.:eek:

jayme
01-14-2017, 02:08 PM
I'm hoping people can highlight the positives of which they want. Vx FO bidding 75% ish and work 12 days a month. If I need four particular days off in a month there is almost no way I won't get it. You can decide what mix of trips you feel like flying... you always have the potential of getting a dream schedule. Also, our schedules are posted by the 10th. I'm hoping we get something like this as far as scheduling goes

This is so misguided.

#1. The way pairings are assigned to you (lines vs PBS) has zero impact on your # of days off and credit. The company decides how much credit you will have to work for the month, and the efficiency of the pairings dictates your # of days off.

#2. We at Virgin will almost definitely end up with less efficient trips when we start flying more shorter segments in the Alaska system.

#3. If we want to keep the credit up and thus our high number of days off, the only way to do that is with trip and duty rigs.

#4. Publicly stating on a message board that management can read, that you are trying to SELL PBS to your coworkers undercuts our negotiators.

#5. The appropriate way to have this discussion is directly with your reps or via confidential polling.

juventus
01-14-2017, 04:06 PM
100% agree with above .

NotTellin
01-14-2017, 07:25 PM
This is so misguided.

#1. The way pairings are assigned to you (lines vs PBS) has zero impact on your # of days off and credit. The company decides how much credit you will have to work for the month, and the efficiency of the pairings dictates your # of days off.

#2. We at Virgin will almost definitely end up with less efficient trips when we start flying more shorter segments in the Alaska system.

#3. If we want to keep the credit up and thus our high number of days off, the only way to do that is with trip and duty rigs.

#4. Publicly stating on a message board that management can read, that you are trying to SELL PBS to your coworkers undercuts our negotiators.

#5. The appropriate way to have this discussion is directly with your reps or via confidential polling.

Finally some wisdom!

Klsytakesit
01-14-2017, 08:30 PM
amen to that.....however...PBS at Alaska with our work rule and managements mentality will have all but the top 10% working 16 plus days a month.....

EskimoJoe
01-15-2017, 04:32 AM
I've been at Alaska for 15 years. PBS is a non starter for me. I've been burned enough by these people to know better. They can't be trusted with PBS.

Andy
01-15-2017, 04:47 AM
United pilot here. If you go with PBS, yer nutz! There are so many different ways for the company to screw pilots with PBS that it isn't funny. Even if you have a benevolent management that programs PBS nicely, it only takes a couple of small management tweaks to turn PBS into a pilot's nightmare.

You've been warned, just like I warned my fellow United pilots before PBS was implemented. If you have any questions about how bad PBS can be, ask a few United pilots. You might find the one-off that's happy with PBS but most will tell you that it stinks.

Riverside
01-15-2017, 10:12 AM
The same is true for any system

You must be new.

Milkman
01-16-2017, 11:27 AM
I have definitely been lucky with pbs but have now realized how bad it can be if the company deicides to make it that way. I now realize that at least everything is on the surface and can't be messed with behind the scenes with line bidding. Sorry for posting it on a forum... I just wanted to know why people preferred one over the other.

busbusbaby
01-16-2017, 01:43 PM
Neither the time or place to be discussing this. Talk to your reps not on public forums

757Driver
01-17-2017, 07:02 AM
Heard the new Negotiating Committee is staffed solely with Alaska Legend recipients. Seems to have worked well for you last time around. :rolleyes:

NotTellin
01-17-2017, 12:49 PM
Heard the new Negotiating Committee is staffed solely with Alaska Legend recipients. Seems to have worked well for you last time around. :rolleyes:
Not true. There are 3 VX people on that committee as well. Also our MEC must sign off on any TA before it can go out to either group. I'm confident in our guys to do the right thing.

757Driver
01-17-2017, 01:07 PM
Not true. There are 3 VX people on that committee as well. Also our MEC must sign off on any TA before it can go out to either group. I'm confident in our guys to do the right thing.

Was just a joke NT. Alaska's last disasterous contract was spearheaded by a Union guy who shortly after its implementation was awarded "Legend" status by management. Akin to being awarded Employee of the year and completely inappropriate.

Guys gone now and is a very nice dude but shouldn't have been allowed within 50' of the negotiating table.

NotTellin
01-17-2017, 01:40 PM
Was just a joke NT. Alaska's last disasterous contract was spearheaded by a Union guy who shortly after its implementation was awarded "Legend" status by management. Akin to being awarded Employee of the year and completely inappropriate.

Guys gone now and is a very nice dude but shouldn't have been allowed within 50' of the negotiating table.

Ah sorry. One of the hazards of a merger is not knowing the history of the shotgun wedding partner.

ShyGuy
01-17-2017, 02:12 PM
The TPA and LOA agreements spell out the next steps and among the later steps are dealing with a PBS solution, finding conditions/terms that are acceptable, and then letting all ~2,600 pilots of the combined airline vote yes or no to it. Until then this thread is a moot point.

Arctichicken
01-17-2017, 03:51 PM
Was just a joke NT. Alaska's last disasterous contract was spearheaded by a Union guy who shortly after its implementation was awarded "Legend" status by management. Akin to being awarded Employee of the year and completely inappropriate.

Guys gone now and is a very nice dude but shouldn't have been allowed within 50' of the negotiating table.

Plenty of nice guys out there, at least on the outside. Judas Iscariot was a nice guy as well, I'm sure. In fact, his relatives are on both sides of the table.:rolleyes:

IamAlaska
01-17-2017, 04:48 PM
Make no mistake, with our vacation day trading, PBS is a concession. There is a reason why the company wants it and PBS was forced at many other carriers via bankruptcy. Reduced staffing = $$$. Having had my QOL screwed up by PBS in a previous life, a 5 hour minimum daily guarantee (not a trip rig) would be a must...otherwise tell the company to pack sand. At AK we don't enjoy the luxury of so many transcons like VX.

ShyGuy
01-17-2017, 05:04 PM
Can you explain vacation day trading?

IamAlaska
01-17-2017, 06:02 PM
At AK we bid and are awarded vacation in 7 day chunks. After the awards we can trade vacation days 1 for 1 with fellow pilots (Cpts to Cpts and FOs to FOs). So, let's say your buddy was awarded vacation over the week of Thanksgiving and you were not. He could trade you the day before Thanksgiving (the 23rd) for one of your vacation days and then you could bid a line with weekends off with a 2, 3 or 4 day trip over Thanksgiving which would be dropped (because it touched your vacation day). Simply pick up a trip elsewhere in the month to get your credit back up. One vacation day just got you Thanksgiving off. This loophole is costing the company $ as it forces them to hire more reserves and offer more premium pay (150%) to cover flying over the holidays. With PBS you could be assigned a trip on Thanksgiving day (the 24th)...still honoring your vacation day on the 23rd. PBS also helps the company in "transition" from one month to the next. Under our current system, a carryover pairing (one that starts at the end of one month and continues into the next) can be used to knock pairings off of your schedule in the coming month...if there is a conflict. This is another good way to massage your schedule as you can pick something up elsewhere in the month. Again, this costs the company $ as they have to hire more reserves to cover the "dropped" trips or offer premium pay to entice folks to pick them up. At AK, PBS would be a $ saving "win" for the company. Not even touching the subject of "step" trading, there are a lot of ways to manipulate your schedule here if you know what you are doing...and it drives the company crazy. Does that make sense?

ShyGuy
01-17-2017, 07:37 PM
You can swap out any of your 7 vacation days in a week with another pilot? First day, last day, day 4 of 7? No restrictions with another pilot?

IamAlaska
01-17-2017, 08:15 PM
That is correct

Milkman
01-19-2017, 09:04 PM
Thanks, Iamalaska. That's pretty cool

crxpilot
01-20-2017, 01:21 PM
You can swap out any of your 7 vacation days in a week with another pilot? First day, last day, day 4 of 7? No restrictions with another pilot?
Sounds like a very enterprising possibility for some of the senior pilots in each seat!

ShyGuy
01-20-2017, 01:37 PM
Assuming you can find traders. Let's wait and see how it all shakes out, very busy 12 months coming up.

Klsytakesit
01-20-2017, 04:22 PM
Trading with another pilot is only one facet....I take a 7 day block and break it up...1 vac day 2 work days 1 vac day....gives you 14 days off for 7....makes you illegal to pick back up which we are required to do....makes a good solid 60 hr month with 20 days off.....I dont need to "wait and see"....Alaska Airlines negotiates in bad faith.....They always have.....PBS will be the final blow to what was once a great job....

Arctichicken
01-20-2017, 06:05 PM
Live under our work rules governed by this management group (aka crew scheduling/planning and up) and you'll see why we don't want PBS under this regime. "They don't play nice" is an understatement.

snackysmores
01-21-2017, 01:28 AM
Your red-headed "sister company" Horizon will be implementing PBS soon. Stop by our forums then if you want to see the sht show unfold when it goes live.

IamAlaska
01-23-2017, 06:31 PM
Keep us in loop on how PBS implementation goes at Horizon.

Ispeakjive
01-27-2017, 04:00 PM
I'm guessing that a properly implemented PBS is better than a bad line system and vice versa. How long does it take to sort through all the individual lines?

Klsytakesit
01-27-2017, 10:15 PM
One leg of a transcon to sort....return leg to bid....That is for SEA....Bidding at the outposts is much faster...
Alaska Airlines negotiates in bad faith...We will never have a functional PBS system and we will never have the work rules to protect us from the dysfunctional PBS system.....If you are at Virgin forget PBS....There is no solution that will work.....trust no one in leadership here from the top down...

Reggie Dunlop
01-29-2017, 02:32 PM
One leg of a transcon to sort....return leg to bid....That is for SEA....Bidding at the outposts is much faster...
Alaska Airlines negotiates in bad faith...We will never have a functional PBS system and we will never have the work rules to protect us from the dysfunctional PBS system.....If you are at Virgin forget PBS....There is no solution that will work.....trust no one in leadership here from the top down...

Jeez..I'da jumped off a bridge a long time ago. Must be tough getting up in the morning. I guess the future is not as bright as I thought.

Time to get bitter with the rest of ya...or maybe that's just web boards, cuz it's the same **** from you hand fulla guys every time I drop by this miserable ***** board.

Klsytakesit
01-29-2017, 02:59 PM
This is not the sunshine and pixie fairy dust unicorn discussion Reggie..

YXnot
01-30-2017, 02:01 PM
The AA guys say they like their new PBS....but they have been in an extended honeymoon with management so that is not suprising. Is it?

snackysmores
01-31-2017, 08:31 AM
Keep us in loop on how PBS implementation goes at Horizon.

We probably won't survive long enough to implement it. The place is imploding. Management is violating our contract left and right, we've already threatened a status quo strike, FOs are bailing in droves. All the E175s are probably going to skywest, except for 1 so they can activate our concessionary contract starting May 1st.

I foresee you guys having to pick up a lot more Horizon routes to cover your own feed in the short future.

Boeing314
01-31-2017, 09:55 AM
What PBS vendor is Alaska considering?

FlyingOkra
02-02-2017, 02:02 PM
The AA guys say they like their new PBS....but they have been in an extended honeymoon with management so that is not suprising. Is it?

You sure about that or did I miss the sarcasm?

American Airlines pilots upset with holiday bid schedule | The Star-Telegram (http://www.star-telegram.com/news/business/aviation/sky-talk-blog/article115706413.html)

American Airlines offers double pay to 198 pilots after holiday scheduling issues | American Airlines | Dallas News (http://www.dallasnews.com/business/american-airlines/2016/12/05/american-airlines-offers-double-pay-198-pilots-holiday-scheduling-issues)

IamAlaska
02-04-2017, 12:36 AM
I sure hope our new scheduling software (Crew Access) isn't an indication of what PBS would be like. 4 years and $28 Million? What use to require 2 steps now requires 3, 4 or 5. smh

YXnot
02-04-2017, 11:36 AM
You sure about that or did I miss the sarcasm?

American Airlines pilots upset with holiday bid schedule | The Star-Telegram (http://www.star-telegram.com/news/business/aviation/sky-talk-blog/article115706413.html)

American Airlines offers double pay to 198 pilots after holiday scheduling issues | American Airlines | Dallas News (http://www.dallasnews.com/business/american-airlines/2016/12/05/american-airlines-offers-double-pay-198-pilots-holiday-scheduling-issues)


The two NY based guys I talked to, and who have been parallel bidding for several months, both said they liked how it is working for them. The aforementioned issues were not brought up and represent a serious flaw in a complex endeavor like implementing a new bid system. IIRC we had to re run last Decembers prefbid due to some minor preference tweaks that were not properly announced by the company or vendor. As far as what I can gather, the current trade system at AS, eMaestro, often crashes when trading begins. I don't know, maybe mgmt considers that a feature and not a bug. YMMV

stickpusher
02-09-2017, 10:09 PM
AS pilots, you guys still bid manually (paper) vs. PBS due to peculiarities w/PBS not honoring seniority (stacking, or any other dorky terminology that pilots don't really understand). I hate PBS....does not follow seniority at times.

OCCP
02-10-2017, 05:30 AM
I love PBS. Commutable trips with 16-18 days off per month and some control over what days I work, and I'm not senior.

jayme
02-10-2017, 06:28 AM
I love PBS. Commutable trips with 16-18 days off per month and some control over what days I work, and I'm not senior.

You're confusing pairing construction with pairing assignment. PBS did not construct those high credit, commutable pairings. It just assigned them.

plt32173
02-10-2017, 06:57 AM
I love PBS. Commutable trips with 16-18 days off per month and some control over what days I work, and I'm not senior.

Please stop correlating days off to pbs. I also have had 16-19 days off since I started here. That has to do with math. 70 hr min and productive trips. This all goes away soon and pbs gets exponentially worse with worse trips.

PBS is a concession fellow Vxers. There are several of us pounding on union doors saying how bad we want as is. Please do some research and don't claim the vx pilot group wants pbs. It's misguided.

Arctichicken
02-10-2017, 07:54 AM
Please stop correlating days off to pbs. I also have had 16-19 days off since I started here. That has to do with math. 70 hr min and productive trips. This all goes away soon and pbs gets exponentially worse with worse trips.

PBS is a concession fellow Vxers. There are several of us pounding on union doors saying how bad we want as is. Please do some research and don't claim the vx pilot group wants pbs. It's misguided.

Ding ding ding.....winner winner chicken dinner!
Pairings and work rules are what matter. Another thing to observe is our new software, Crew Access. It makes emaestro look real good. If that is any sign what of PBS may look like here at Alaska, God help us all.

CassinAK
02-10-2017, 08:54 AM
In the earnings call management said the 320 is a bad transcon airplane and a great north south airplane. Do you VXers think your highly productive trips are going to remain the same? Read the transcript your flying is going to change to shorter legs and lower productivity so all those 18 day off PBS created lines will be gone.

OCCP
02-10-2017, 10:35 AM
I said I like pbs, I'm not speaking for all vx pilots. Lighten up dbags.

Flyin1500
02-10-2017, 10:44 AM
I said I like pbs, I'm not speaking for all vx pilots. Lighten up dbags.

Don't make me turn this jet around! Let's focus on the important things. As previously stated it won't matter whether it's hard lines or some fancy new PBS program, if the pairings suck then it won't matter. Pairing construction. Language to help us to that end and a big fat signing bonus with our JCBA. We need to stay united. Cheers!

F1500

OCCP
02-10-2017, 10:51 AM
I'm all about the language, and money!

jayme
02-10-2017, 12:31 PM
I said I like pbs, I'm not speaking for all vx pilots. Lighten up dbags.

Pointing out your misunderstanding of what's really driving your QOL does not make one a douche bag.

I think it's important to properly correlate cause and effect. If enough people follow you down the path you're leading, there could be a real detrimental effect on MY QOL.

Klsytakesit
02-11-2017, 12:22 AM
Since the JCBA is going to mediation/arbitration: 1) pay will be set at 6th because that is where we fall in the line up. 2) scope will be set likely to allow current orders for Skywest on the E-175 and no scope for Horizon so unlimited E-175 growth for them. 3) Retirement again will be matched to average at 6th place........ So PBS is dead on arrival whether it is good or not....

busbusbaby
02-12-2017, 06:02 AM
Since the JCBA is going to mediation/arbitration: 1) pay will be set at 6th because that is where we fall in the line up. 2) scope will be set likely to allow current orders for Skywest on the E-175 and no scope for Horizon so unlimited E-175 growth for them. 3) Retirement again will be matched to average at 6th place........ So PBS is dead on arrival whether it is good or not....

5th, jb is 6th

plt32173
02-12-2017, 07:40 AM
5th, jb is 6th

This is going to the 11th hour of mediation. Wouldn't expect anything less. (And that mediator would be the head of the arbitration panel.)

Size of the airline doesn't correlate to where we rank pay. Alaska has one of the best balance sheets and highest profit margin in the world among airlines. Your pilots took significant cuts to get Alaska where they are. 5th in pay is a joke. Not happening.

No scope for horizon is not happening. That would be an absolute no vote. And no arbitration panel will agree to that. That idea is not even industry average. This is a new era.

Record profits..Record Contracts.

Work2much
02-12-2017, 08:08 AM
This is going to the 11th hour of mediation. Wouldn't expect anything less. (And that mediator would be the head of the arbitration panel.)

Size of the airline doesn't correlate to where we rank pay. Alaska has one of the best balance sheets and highest profit margin in the world among airlines. Your pilots took significant cuts to get Alaska where they are. 5th in pay is a joke. Not happening.

No scope for horizon is not happening. That would be an absolute no vote. And no arbitration panel will agree to that. That idea is not even industry average. This is a new era.

Record profits..Record Contracts.

https://media.giphy.com/media/26xBFg4zXVwzdI9lS/source.gif

Scoop
02-12-2017, 09:00 AM
PBS vs line bidding.


PBS is inherently neither good or bad - it is a computer program that turns your PWA into a schedule.

Good PWA = good schedule.
Weak PWA = crappy schedule.

FOr example, PBS does not cause anyone to lose trip touching - that is done via your PWA. PBS can just as easily build you a schedule and then drop your vacation down over your schedule - bingo you retain trips touching.

What PBS does is enable much greater fidelity for both the company and Pilots to fine tune and make adjustments to your schedule. What adjustments are actually made all depends on your PWA and how PBS is implemented.

From a Pilots perspective this enable thousands of additional combinations for your monthly schedule - this is a good thing. It is much easier to fine tune your schedule whether that means individual days off, commutability, pattern bidding etc.

From the companies perspective it enables many additional efficiencies that the company will attempt to secure via the PWA that first incorporates PBS - this is a bad thing for Pilots.

I have been senior and junior with both PBS and LOT and here are some general observations:

Benefits of PBS:

Senior or junior, I have always been able to get a better schedule via PBS.
Many fewer reserve Lines - great for commuters.
Many more combinations of possible lines.

Negatives of PBS:

Much less open time available.
Fewer Pilots required.

Fewer Pilots required is perhaps the biggest drawback, but as I already pointed out that is partially PWA related and partly attributable to PBS.
If you are hiring this drawback may not even be noticeable. At DAL we switched to PBS in the middle of the "lost decade" and the switch was painful. I for one am now very happy with PBS and would not want to switch back.

One of my favorite things to do via PBS is to easily get two weeks off in a row at the end of a month - even while junior. Unless there is a holiday, it is pretty easy to bid the last week of a month off and the first week of the next month off - thus building two week "vacations" into your schedule.

Scoop

Arctichicken
02-12-2017, 09:24 AM
PBS vs line bidding.


PBS is inherently neither good or bad - it is a computer program that turns your PWA into a schedule.

Good PWA = good schedule.
Weak PWA = crappy schedule.

FOr example, PBS does not cause anyone to lose trip touching - that is done via your PWA. PBS can just as easily build you a schedule and then drop your vacation down over your schedule - bingo you retain trips touching.

What PBS does is enable much greater fidelity for both the company and Pilots to fine tune and make adjustments to your schedule. What adjustments are actually made all depends on your PWA and how PBS is implemented.

From a Pilots perspective this enable thousands of additional combinations for your monthly schedule - this is a good thing. It is much easier to fine tune your schedule whether that means individual days off, commutability, pattern bidding etc.

From the companies perspective it enables many additional efficiencies that the company will attempt to secure via the PWA that first incorporates PBS - this is a bad thing for Pilots.

I have been senior and junior with both PBS and LOT and here are some general observations:

Benefits of PBS:

Senior or junior, I have always been able to get a better schedule via PBS.
Many fewer reserve Lines - great for commuters.
Many more combinations of possible lines.

Negatives of PBS:

Much less open time available.
Fewer Pilots required.

Fewer Pilots required is perhaps the biggest drawback, but as I already pointed out that is partially PWA related and partly attributable to PBS.
If you are hiring this drawback may not even be noticeable. At DAL we switched to PBS in the middle of the "lost decade" and the switch was painful. I for one am now very happy with PBS and would not want to switch back.

One of my favorite things to do via PBS is to easily get two weeks off in a row at the end of a month - even while junior. Unless there is a holiday, it is pretty easy to bid the last week of a month off and the first week of the next month off - thus building two week "vacations" into your schedule.

Scoop

Well, we ain't Delta and more importantly, we are not going to get the same PBS software/control. Questions?

Scoop
02-12-2017, 03:52 PM
Well, we ain't Delta and more importantly, we are not going to get the same PBS software/control. Questions?

Wow - someone has a chip on their shoulder. No, no questions - feel free to continue being shrill and miserable. :cool:

Scoop

Arctichicken
02-12-2017, 08:29 PM
Wow - someone has a chip on their shoulder. No, no questions - feel free to continue being shrill and miserable. :cool:

Scoop

Huh?! No chip on the shoulders here. I'm filled with joy, actually, but thanks for caring. You may work on your reading comprehension though.

DBCooper1968
02-13-2017, 02:02 AM
PBS vs line bidding.


PBS is inherently neither good or bad - it is a computer program that turns your PWA into a schedule.

Good PWA = good schedule.
Weak PWA = crappy schedule.

FOr example, PBS does not cause anyone to lose trip touching - that is done via your PWA. PBS can just as easily build you a schedule and then drop your vacation down over your schedule - bingo you retain trips touching.

What PBS does is enable much greater fidelity for both the company and Pilots to fine tune and make adjustments to your schedule. What adjustments are actually made all depends on your PWA and how PBS is implemented.

From a Pilots perspective this enable thousands of additional combinations for your monthly schedule - this is a good thing. It is much easier to fine tune your schedule whether that means individual days off, commutability, pattern bidding etc.

From the companies perspective it enables many additional efficiencies that the company will attempt to secure via the PWA that first incorporates PBS - this is a bad thing for Pilots.

I have been senior and junior with both PBS and LOT and here are some general observations:

Benefits of PBS:

Senior or junior, I have always been able to get a better schedule via PBS.
Many fewer reserve Lines - great for commuters.
Many more combinations of possible lines.

Negatives of PBS:

Much less open time available.
Fewer Pilots required.

Fewer Pilots required is perhaps the biggest drawback, but as I already pointed out that is partially PWA related and partly attributable to PBS.
If you are hiring this drawback may not even be noticeable. At DAL we switched to PBS in the middle of the "lost decade" and the switch was painful. I for one am now very happy with PBS and would not want to switch back.

One of my favorite things to do via PBS is to easily get two weeks off in a row at the end of a month - even while junior. Unless there is a holiday, it is pretty easy to bid the last week of a month off and the first week of the next month off - thus building two week "vacations" into your schedule.

Scoop

Thanks Scoop,
Nice to see your honest input with the pros and cons rather than another mindless rant. much appreciated.

Foodstamps
02-17-2017, 08:31 PM
I had 97h credit last month with 16 days off.

Yes, I know this has much to do with productive flying etc, but that said...

- I'm only about 30% of the way up my list.
- I got EVERY day off I wanted, I got the trips and overnights I wanted and I didn't have to repeatedly dick with my schedule adding, dropping, revising, etc 2, 3, 4 plus times to do it.
- My bid from start to finish took about fifteen, maybe twenty minutes. Wham bam done. No printing out countless sheets. No staying up late. No fuss. Just bid, get, done.
- Again I am *NOT* senior.

Tell me you can do that with line bidding a Alaska and I'm all ears.

Full disclosure: We have a pilot build our lines and he does a damn good job. Alaska NEEDS the same.

~ Stampy

Please stop correlating days off to pbs. I also have had 16-19 days off since I started here. That has to do with math. 70 hr min and productive trips. This all goes away soon and pbs gets exponentially worse with worse trips.

PBS is a concession fellow Vxers. There are several of us pounding on union doors saying how bad we want as is. Please do some research and don't claim the vx pilot group wants pbs. It's misguided.

Foodstamps
02-17-2017, 08:39 PM
Don't make me turn this jet around! Let's focus on the important things. As previously stated it won't matter whether it's hard lines or some fancy new PBS program, if the pairings suck then it won't matter. Pairing construction. Language to help us to that end and a big fat signing bonus with our JCBA. We need to stay united. Cheers!

F1500

I second that. I am happy with VX PBS, but if I have the same capabilities with line bidding and I don't have to waste a whole damn day sifting through crap to get what I want, I'm happy.

I sure like the simplicity of PBS though. Pop in parameters, it poops out a schedule you can be happy with, every time. Unless you bid like an idiot. (I'm guilty from time to time)

But even bidding like an idiot I still got every single day off I wanted, the overnights I wanted, the credit I wanted etc. User error is just user error. Give it a look.

If any of you Alaska guys wanna see how easy it is to work, I'll be happy to fly up to Seattle next month and show you, but you're buying the beer. :)

PM me if interested.

Cheers ~ Stampy

Foodstamps
02-17-2017, 08:48 PM
PBS vs line bidding.


PBS is inherently neither good or bad - it is a computer program that turns your PWA into a schedule.

Good PWA = good schedule.
Weak PWA = crappy schedule.

FOr example, PBS does not cause anyone to lose trip touching - that is done via your PWA. PBS can just as easily build you a schedule and then drop your vacation down over your schedule - bingo you retain trips touching.

What PBS does is enable much greater fidelity for both the company and Pilots to fine tune and make adjustments to your schedule. What adjustments are actually made all depends on your PWA and how PBS is implemented.

From a Pilots perspective this enable thousands of additional combinations for your monthly schedule - this is a good thing. It is much easier to fine tune your schedule whether that means individual days off, commutability, pattern bidding etc.

From the companies perspective it enables many additional efficiencies that the company will attempt to secure via the PWA that first incorporates PBS - this is a bad thing for Pilots.

I have been senior and junior with both PBS and LOT and here are some general observations:

Benefits of PBS:

Senior or junior, I have always been able to get a better schedule via PBS.
Many fewer reserve Lines - great for commuters.
Many more combinations of possible lines.

Negatives of PBS:

Much less open time available.
Fewer Pilots required.

Fewer Pilots required is perhaps the biggest drawback, but as I already pointed out that is partially PWA related and partly attributable to PBS.
If you are hiring this drawback may not even be noticeable. At DAL we switched to PBS in the middle of the "lost decade" and the switch was painful. I for one am now very happy with PBS and would not want to switch back.

One of my favorite things to do via PBS is to easily get two weeks off in a row at the end of a month - even while junior. Unless there is a holiday, it is pretty easy to bid the last week of a month off and the first week of the next month off - thus building two week "vacations" into your schedule.

Scoop

Scoop, thank you for the breakdown. There is no reason we couldn't have a carbon copy of the same PBS Delta or anyone else has. No reason at all. If ALK doesn't want it with that much pilot control, chances are our ALPA folks will not let it pass the smell test. Simple as that.

I have faith in our negotiators, they are smarter than anyone in this room and will do a great job. My union speaks for me. Enough with the name calling and animosity in here, we are on the same team and we are professionals. High time we all start acting like it and GET PAID accordingly. We are in this together, regardless of who signs our paychecks today, or tomorrow.

~ Stampy

Klsytakesit
02-20-2017, 10:40 AM
Stampy,
You no longer work for a company that values your time, commitment or engagement. You are viewed as a line item expense.....to be marginalized. You will come to work on day 1 at 5am and be released at 2355 on day 4. You will be paid the average of 5 hrs per day no matter how much you actually work in a day. Your lines will be built to have you at work 15 to 17 days per month and you will be paid 75 to 85 hrs for that.

Klsytakesit
02-20-2017, 10:54 AM
The JCBA arbitration will place your pay and retirement a distant fifth amongst US passenger carrying airlines. Scope ,if at all, will be token at best.
Your new masters know that their current workforce posses neither the finances, the unity nor the sick-leave balances to impact their profit stream..Before they bought your work group they determined the same about you.
You may hear the blind and the uninformed proclaim that record profitability should lead to contract improvement....That may be true in full contract negotiations but you have no voice in this 3 item arbitration.
Brad and Ben will expect you yo be at work 15 to 17 days a month and fly the airplane from point A to point B when the door closes.
Alaska Airlines never nor will they ever place value on your commitment, your input or your engagement in their operation......

juventus
02-20-2017, 12:08 PM
Oh my gosh ! Did they killed your dog !?

Mea25000
02-20-2017, 05:43 PM
Yup I am pretty sure they shot it dead... Every major airline is hiring, go get that dream job. I hope I never have to fly with him. I actually really enjoy my job and think AS is a really good company. We will bump SWA to 4th on the pay scale soon enough!

Reggie Dunlop
02-20-2017, 08:05 PM
Huh?! No chip on the shoulders here. I'm filled with joy, actually, but thanks for caring. You may work on your reading comprehension though.

Right...no chip eh?

No reading comprehension course needed to figure out you and that KLykiskit homeboy need some meds and probably oughta have your shavers and shoelaces taken away by the purser when you get to the hotel.

Klsytakesit
02-21-2017, 03:35 AM
Mea...Where do you come up with this dream job shoot your dog stuff....
I am perfectly content working for a west coast "super-regional"...I have a good retirement called a pension that will pay me well for the rest of my life. My hourly compensation is at the top for the category of airline that I work for. I have only had to learn one jet and will retire off of the same one 29 years later...All I want out of the next contract is the ability to drop down to 60hrs after the monthly bid awards....That and COLA raises will make this a "dream" job for me....

busbusbaby
02-21-2017, 06:06 AM
The JCBA arbitration will place your pay and retirement a distant fifth amongst US passenger carrying airlines. Scope ,if at all, will be token at best.
Your new masters know that their current workforce posses neither the finances, the unity nor the sick-leave balances to impact their profit stream..Before they bought your work group they determined the same about you.o
You may hear the blind and the uninformed proclaim that record profitability should lead to contract improvement....That may be true in full contract negotiations but you have no voice in this 3 item arbitration.
Brad and Ben will expect you yo be at work 15 to 17 days a month and fly the airplane from point A to point B when the door closes.
Alaska Airlines never nor will they ever place value on your commitment, your input or your engagement in their operation......

Who peed in your fruit loops, just leave or take a Zanax. Good golly you sound like a wlb

OCCP
02-21-2017, 12:45 PM
I think he makes some good points and is being honest.

Klsytakesit
02-21-2017, 03:32 PM
I think it is important to help the Virgin pilots see through the usual angle lake bs.....I could care less about outsiders looking in....The Virgin pilots are being force fed

Pogey Bait
02-22-2017, 07:21 AM
I think it is important to help the Virgin pilots see through the usual angle lake bs.....I could care less about outsiders looking in....The Virgin pilots are being force fed

Believe me....we might be "force fed" information 7 1/2 hours at a time. But this pilot group is made up from every defunct airline out there and several still in operation, most have been around this block several times. This is not our first show.

Ispeakjive
02-22-2017, 01:34 PM
Believe me....we might be "force fed" information 7 1/2 hours at a time. But this pilot group is made up from every defunct airline out there and several still in operation, most have been around this block several times. This is not our first show.

The seasoned perspective of both pilot groups, plus some assless chaps will keep everyone smiling.

Flyin1500
02-23-2017, 09:35 AM
The seasoned perspective of both pilot groups, plus some assless chaps will keep everyone smiling.

Quote of the day! LMFAO!:eek: