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View Full Version : Flight Crew Agencies - A Project


Trojan65
01-24-2017, 07:56 PM
Situation:

Live in Australia & am thinking of starting a new flight crew agency. Have spent a long time around the aviation industry(engineer/flight crew) & have placed around 30 pilots into Asian countries via informal relations with Management pilots in Asia

Aim:

Interested in formalizing a business & doing this properly. Doing the right thing by pilots & client airlines. Aim to start with smaller footprint from in some of the smaller Asian aviation countries , initially stay away from China/Japan/Korea

The Numbers:

1. HR industry

Discussed project with a few credible Recruiters in Aust (they survived the GFC , in legal / financial) areas. This is what they say about the numbers to make their businesses work , they take a % of between 20 to 30% of first year wage, this is paid in a lump sum. The % will get closer to 30% if the "job" is perceived as more difficult , ie: higher level job , placement overseas , more specialized tech skills etc. If the employee doesn't work out they will replace with no cost replacement

2. Flight Crew Agencies (FCA)

Say in Vietnam for example an agency would typically collect $500 per month per pilot they have placed , airline does all the admin (calculates hours / overtimes). If they FCA takes a more active role this rate will rise to $1000 per month(most don't).

So from this "metric" the FCA takes a long time to get the same % that the rest of the HR industry would use as standard % for a business to be solvent etc

Clearly if you are placing guys into LCC , they may well think after 12/18 months they would like to move to the "A List" ie: ME3 , Japan Air , China etc. So many guys will jump well before the three year contract expires , who could blame them , but it this would present a challenge for a business

The Key Challenge - Supply:

It seems the many of FCA & Airlines are playing a game of musical chairs trying to poach people from the ME to Asia or Vice Versa , or going to same old cities in Western Europe , North America , Australasia to do their various road shows etc.

Many of the growth Airlines have spent big dollars on their own cadetships etc , so trying to do the right thing but just been caught short with the rate of expansion

My personal view is that the first world is likely not the best source of flight crew anymore , as their own employment markets are quite strong , likely to only be tempted by "A List" employers in ME/Asia , and fairly skeptical about China.

Whereas taking someone from 2nd/3rd world , well in a lot of ways they have something more to play for , ie: crime at home & lower wages , & HK , Viet, etc really a much better lifestyle

Where would you find such people ?

My thinking is that you see a lot of Brazilians pilots in Asia/ME . But you seldom see many from Argentina/Chile/Peru/Colombia where many A320s are operated.

I am thinking this could be a good flight crew source for the Asian/ME market and perhaps has been ignored. Initial data indicates the wages for Capt (narrow) might be around $5K per month , but hard to get accurate data really. The airlines & FCA only occasionally seem to go to Brazil on recruitment drives , rest of South America seems largely ignored.

Questions:

1. The "metric" above regarding payment to FCA in Vietnam is quite accurate. Does anybody know what the numbers are ? , or approximate numbers in other countries ?

2. What are FCA doing wrong in terms of treatment of their pilots ? Is it lack of communication ? , just straight out dishonesty ? . This seems a tough one really as in many ways the FCA is just an "employer of convenience" to the airline, real power & decisions rest with the airlines. I guess the key is for the FCA to have strong & ongoing relations with the airline management pilots so that issues can be sorted quickly

3. It seems that many of the FCA want money for nothing , just list a whole lot criteria , come work for us "bobs your uncle , all sorted mate" etc. How many are really getting out & about looking for Pilots off the beaten track ? Or most just wanting "passive income" via the internet ?
Who are the best & why ?

4. Do you think the strategy outlined above makes any sense ? I am talking about doing multiple visits "in country" , having a serious go

Appreciate any ideas , this would be a good topic for a college paper I reckon


awax
01-24-2017, 10:06 PM
Is this an undergrad business school project or are you serious about putting this plan into action? This has got to be one of the most hilariously naive crew staffing models I've read. Uh, good luck!

2StgTurbine
01-24-2017, 11:11 PM
Who doesn't love a middleman :rolleyes:


Trojan65
01-24-2017, 11:53 PM
Always nice for someone to wish you luck , so thanks for that

Yes it is a serious project

As I mentioned I have placed a number already & some were NTR so
had to arrange TR etc licence conv

Seemed to go alright , but the CPs etc who I dealt with were continually frustrated
with the low calibre candidates CV sent to them by the big boys, combined with Sales types who knew nothing about aviation

The issue I think is the supply side of the equation, get that right & you will win

Feel free to articulate why the plan is naive (no Smart tone here )

Milksheikh
01-25-2017, 01:09 PM
The issue I think is the supply side of the equation, get that right & you will win

Feel free to articulate why the plan is naive (no Smart tone here )[/QUOTE]

From what I get, you're trying to hook up potential 2nd/3rd world pilots with airlines in SE Asia excluding China Japan and Korea. Is that about right? This just doesn't seem feasible on two fronts that I see. One issue could be the caliber of pilots from 2nd/3rd world countries not measuring up to the airlines needs. What kind of training did they receive etc.. The other issue is the pay. 5k a month for a qualified captain? First officers at regional airlines in the U.S. are making about that. I doubt they will uproot themselves, go through all the regulatory hoops, medicals, etc for that kind of money. At first when I read this I thought you forgot to put a 2 in front of the 5 then I saw you mentioned 2nd/3rd world pilots and figured they could be paid a lot less. Look into Wasinc and Rishworth for contract comparisons, you'll see what I'm talking about and they are not just for China. I just don't think it would be worth your while to run some sort of low cost recruiting agency. You wouldn't make nearly as much as the big airlines pay wasinc/rishworth.

Trojan65
01-25-2017, 11:34 PM
Looking at hiring into the "second tier" if you like fast growth LCCs in SEAsia , typically these will pay 11/14K for Capt (all in)

Few guys from the first world want to go atm , 7/8 years ago well that was a different story, as to many options at home or if they go expat atm want "first tier" ie: ME3 or the commute contracts out of Japan/Korea/lesser extent EVA, or make the adjustments to live in China & earn the large $$

So the only option is the 2nd/3rd world or you will parking aircraft

So what I am trying to work out is where you can actually find these people from & am thinking possibly Chile/Peru/Colombia/Argentina

Trying to establish how much an A320 Capt would be paid in these countries , as if they are already paid 12k , well why go to SEA ? The fact is that a lot of Braz's are flying in Asia/ME , very much the back bone of some airlines there , strong rep.

So my thinking is if the Braz's can fly to a high standard - really no reason to think why the guys next door wouldn't. Many would have done their training in Nth America & at CAE sim centres etc.

It just seems an anomaly that the Braz's are everywhere but the other guys from South America are very few & far between in Asia/ME

(AWACS guy sent me your CV I bet you $100 I can get you a job inside two weeks)

2StgTurbine
01-25-2017, 11:47 PM
So you want to be known for having "great" pilots for airlines that pay less. And you want us to tell you where to find great pilots that like mediocre pay and want to live half way across the world?

Trojan65
01-26-2017, 01:11 AM
Well it is just a discussion 2S , people are allowed to exchange information & ideas on forums , not sure its actually a federal offence atm

I hardly think a US equivalent salary of $200k is mediocre , it would likely put you in the top 5% of salary earners in the US surely. Great dollars for an American , exceptional pay for a South American

Some people actually enjoy the experience of living OS & seek it out

The reality is that the likes of Qatar/Cathay have many thousands of suitable people on their files , a lot of the LCC don't

Yes they made all the classic mistakes , ie: not investing in training of locals etc , but nobody can wind the clock back

The Dominican
01-26-2017, 02:36 AM
My personal view is that the first world is likely not the best source of flight crew anymore , as their own employment markets are quite strong , likely to only be tempted by "A List" employers in ME/Asia , and fairly skeptical about China.

Whereas taking someone from 2nd/3rd world , well in a lot of ways they have something more to play for , ie: crime at home & lower wages , & HK , Viet, etc really a much better lifestyle

Where would you find such people ?

My thinking is that you see a lot of Brazilians pilots in Asia/ME . But you seldom see many from Argentina/Chile/Peru/Colombia where many A320s are operated.

There are a few holes in your theory mate......! And this comes from one of those pilots from what you describe as crime infested and lower wages bad lifestyle "second or third world" we call it home! And you know what? It isn't that bad! LOL!

First of all....., the salary level at many airlines in Latin America is low, no doubt...., but when compared to QOL and cost....., it is still one of the highest paid with more time off gigs available.

Second...., now a days the airlines are starting to grow again and getting new airplanes...., this is causing upwards movement again with folks getting the opportunity to fly new iron, Latin America is the area with highest sales of aircrafts after Asia and with the highest growth of GDP after Asia with some countries growing at over 4% a year.

Third....., there are many of us flying on the international market..., not as many as guys from Oz, the US and Europe...., but there are many of us out here. But guess what? We just move for the higher paid contracts...., a good pilot with the experience to go for one of these gigs is not going to leave GOL or LATAM making 7 or 8 grand a month to go work at Vietnam for 10 or 12 because..., once again......, we live pretty good on the third world crime infested countries you are thinking we want to escape from:rolleyes:

Haven said that......, Venezuela might be a source of a few bodies since their economy is in shatters and their relationship with neighboring countries is not that good..., therefore the welcome mat is not rolled out for pilot jobs necessarily. But...., another problem you will find with pilots from the region is that their English is not that good..., some might have ICAO level 4 on their licenses but their English language ability is not that good.

What I'm trying to convey here is that the LCC's are just going to have to up the ante.......!

Trojan65
01-26-2017, 02:50 AM
No offense intended Dom

Just repeating what Braz guys have told me when I have spoken to them in Asia , that the crime in some of the larger cities - well put it this way it is something they don't miss

What I don't understand is why there are so many Braz guys on the international market whereas not a whole lot from the other SA countries

Seem to be a lot A320s in Colombia , maybe the Argentinians just don't like going OS - I don't know

Not so sure of living costs in SA , but I know them in Asia quite well. $150k (after tax) per year & living in HCMC - well I think people would get used to it quite quickly

The Dominican
01-26-2017, 03:00 AM
Good luck........!

Milksheikh
01-26-2017, 11:06 AM
So my thinking is if the Braz's can fly to a high standard - really no reason to think why the guys next door wouldn't. Many would have done their training in Nth America & at CAE sim centres etc.

It just seems an anomaly that the Braz's are everywhere but the other guys from South America are very few & far between in Asia/ME



I don't think it is as much of an anomaly as it appears to be simply due to sheer numbers. Brazil is the 5th most populous country on the planet. They have almost double the population of Argentina, Colombia, and Venezuela combined. I just have a hard time seeing pilots wanting to come fly overseas for 2nd rate jobs (ie not China Japan or S. Korea) especially when there will be plenty of opportunities coming up in their own continent as The Dominican says. Seems you would be hard pressed to find the kind of numbers of pilots to make it worthwhile.

Trojan65
01-26-2017, 08:28 PM
Yes the population etc does influence , nearly 50 mill in Colombia & they seem to have a lot of aircraft there , bit of a mess is Venezuela - so folks might want to leave there

I think the expat market etc , well I think it is horses for courses , for some the KAL/JA monthly commute works , personally I wouldn't want to do two 12 hour flights monthly to get home , & I also wouldn't want to live in "expat" pilot college dorm type setup , which I think they do in Eva , K/J

I would want to live in country full time

People are saying the SEA $12K is "second rate" or mediocre , not sure K/J pay a whole lot more(if any) & thought EVA were less . Lots of Aussies , Brits & yes even North Americans in these SEA jobs & perfectly content (OK I have to apologise for them , likely my countrymen will moan & complain a bit - I know what they are like). So they aren't just solely for people from more developing countries.

Let's remember it would put you in the top 5% of US earners, & would actually be about the same as Qantas short haul rates in Aust (likely higher)

Sure ME3 pay more & education allowances but it is kind of hot there & not for everyone. Large dollars in China but larger cultural gap to get over & not everyone can/want to that

Anyone got any guesstimates on ball park Capt figures in SA countries ?

awax
01-26-2017, 11:09 PM
(AWACS guy sent me your CV I bet you $100 I can get you a job inside two weeks)

Thank you for the consideration but how do say in Spanish; "No Bucks, no Buck Rogers"?

Trojan65
01-27-2017, 02:06 AM
AWAX ok thinking you are still in USAF , perhaps thinking about jumping out but not really sure , there are two different paths here

1. B league , the also rans , wannabe majors , b league WB freight , oh & lets not forget "the regionals" - what a joyous next 25 years you will have

2. The path to enlightenment - yes proceed direct to "A league", & this will mean different things depending on where you & family are at , & what you want to do . This could mean an OS commuter , this could mean an OS fixed base in Asia or ME . Or it could mean a NA major either pax or freight, the choices are endless & there are many things to consider. Does someone chase the generous education allowances of the ME3 (& they change all the time) , or is it wiser to "suck it up" at a more arduous LCC who has greater speed to LHS

Yes I can take you on the path to enlightenment & your career earnings will be 5 mill more & I can say this with confidence because I have done it 100 times before

I guess I am just doing this gratis am I ?

Typhoonpilot
01-27-2017, 07:46 AM
What I don't understand is why there are so many Braz guys on the international market whereas not a whole lot from the other SA countries




Varig went out of business putting a lot of them on the street.

They also are known for lying about their flight time to get jobs overseas. Just sayin :)

When Varig went out of business a bunch of them in their early 40s showed up with the magical 3000 hours PIC in the MD-11 to take DEC jobs on the B777. Things that make you go "hmmmm".

To be a fair another big group showed up as F.O.s and did a pretty good job on average, upgrading when the proper time came.

SEPfield
01-27-2017, 08:38 AM
AWAX ok thinking you are still in USAF , perhaps thinking about jumping out but not really sure , there are two different paths here

1. B league , the also rans , wannabe majors , b league WB freight , oh & lets not forget "the regionals" - what a joyous next 25 years you will have

2. The path to enlightenment - yes proceed direct to "A league", & this will mean different things depending on where you & family are at , & what you want to do . This could mean an OS commuter , this could mean an OS fixed base in Asia or ME . Or it could mean a NA major either pax or freight, the choices are endless & there are many things to consider. Does someone chase the generous education allowances of the ME3 (& they change all the time) , or is it wiser to "suck it up" at a more arduous LCC who has greater speed to LHS

Yes I can take you on the path to enlightenment & your career earnings will be 5 mill more & I can say this with confidence because I have done it 100 times before

I guess I am just doing this gratis am I ?

Why do I feel like this guy has a windowless van full of candy?

2StgTurbine
01-27-2017, 09:10 AM
Why do I feel like this guy has a windowless van full of candy?

His name is Trojan

The Dominican
01-27-2017, 09:49 AM
Why do I feel like this guy has a windowless van full of candy?

Definitely.....! The troll flag came up after just a few posts....!:rolleyes:

Trojan65
01-27-2017, 06:21 PM
Not a troll

Some serious posts & a joke or two, relax

Csy Mon
01-27-2017, 06:54 PM
As said above, it can be a sweet life in South America flying for the National carrier: Language, climate, licenses, family, etc., it is all pretty damn comfy.
Compare that to pulling stakes to work for some Mickey Mouse contract agency clear across the planet, with more un-knowns than Mars.
We as pilots moved around to do ex-pat work when unemployed or desperate, not because we had a burning desire to do so.
As other stated, Venezuela is pretty much tits-up now, but half their pilots are flying cargo in Miami and the other half may be desperate enough to jump on some scene in SE Asia, if the pay is good and expenses covered for interview, sim evaluation, hotels, travel, etc. even if they don't get selected.
Lots of horror stories out there..
If I was in Chile or Colombia flying jets for a living, I would stay and do just that.

The Dominican
01-27-2017, 07:19 PM
As said above, it can be a sweet life in South America flying for the National carrier: Language, climate, licenses, family, etc., it is all pretty damn comfy.
Compare that to pulling stakes to work for some Mickey Mouse contract agency clear across the planet, with more un-knowns than Mars.
We as pilots moved around to do ex-pat work when unemployed or desperate, not because we had a burning desire to do so.
As other stated, Venezuela is pretty much tits-up now, but half their pilots are flying cargo in Miami and the other half may be desperate enough to jump on some scene in SE Asia, if the pay is good and expenses covered for interview, sim evaluation, hotels, travel, etc. even if they don't get selected.
Lots of horror stories out there..
If I was in Chile or Colombia flying jets for a living, I would stay and do just that.

Exactly.........! Too bad he didn't research his target audience before starting to insult them.

There is something that we do have in those crime infested third world ****holes we call home troll....., high speed internet!

What are you bringing to the table other than Rishworth, PARC, CREW....., etc..., etc.? (yeah....we know about those)

Besides a complete lack of understanding our way of life that is:rolleyes: