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View Full Version : NAI Strategy Now.....


jcountry
01-30-2017, 11:11 AM
OK-

What's everyone's union telling them about the strategy to deal with NAI now that Trump didn't life a finger to help us?

Ours says that there are multiple strategies they are pursuing. I 'm wondering what others are hearing.


David Puddy
01-30-2017, 12:24 PM
OK-

What's everyone's union telling them about the strategy to deal with NAI now that Trump didn't life a finger to help us?

Ours says that there are multiple strategies they are pursuing. I 'm wondering what others are hearing.

Can we also discuss how we should prevent WOW Airlines of Iceland, Eurowings of Germany (LH subsidiary) and BA's proposed Barcelona-based low cost longhaul subsidiary from offering similar dirt cheap fares as well? Can we force NAI to cancel all of its multi-billion dollar orders from Boeing for the Dreamliner and 737-800MAX as well??????

mainlineAF
01-30-2017, 12:27 PM
Can we also discuss how we should prevent WOW Airlines of Iceland, Eurowings of Germany (LH subsidiary) and BA's proposed Barcelona-based low cost longhaul subsidiary from offering similar dirt cheap fares as well? Can we force NAI to cancel all of its multi-billion dollar orders from Boeing for the Dreamliner and 737-800MAX as well??????



Why don't you go back to creaming over the cs100.


full of luv
01-30-2017, 02:00 PM
Can we also discuss how we should prevent WOW Airlines of Iceland, Eurowings of Germany (LH subsidiary) and BA's proposed Barcelona-based low cost longhaul subsidiary from offering similar dirt cheap fares as well? Can we force NAI to cancel all of its multi-billion dollar orders from Boeing for the Dreamliner and 737-800MAX as well??????

Will WOW use Iceland work rules? Will Eurowings use German unions? Will BA use Spanish work rules? That is the discriminator, is the offshoring just to break unions and and western work rules or just to compete from a new base. Norwegian is allowed to fly from Norway to the US at will, of course those work rules cost too much to allow them to do it for $199 each way.

mainlineAF
01-30-2017, 02:44 PM
Will WOW use Iceland work rules? Will Eurowings use German unions? Will BA use Spanish work rules? That is the discriminator, is the offshoring just to break unions and and western work rules or just to compete from a new base. Norwegian is allowed to fly from Norway to the US at will, of course those work rules cost too much to allow them to do it for $199 each way.



Please don't bring facts into this.

David Puddy
01-30-2017, 02:56 PM
Will WOW use Iceland work rules? Will Eurowings use German unions? Will BA use Spanish work rules? That is the discriminator, is the offshoring just to break unions and and western work rules or just to compete from a new base. Norwegian is allowed to fly from Norway to the US at will, of course those work rules cost too much to allow them to do it for $199 each way.

OK - if NAI only hires UK citizens for its UK AOC will you be OK with that? Don't be surprised if that happens as a way to appease the protectionist crowds. And the more fuel efficient aircraft like the Dreamliner and the upcoming A321LR help reduce CASMs to the point where they can be profitable - lower pilot wages are not the only reason why NAI can make a profit. Meanwhile, Delta uses a lot of aging 767-300s and 757s over the Atlantic that can't compete on a CASM basis.

Last time I checked, bilateral air treaties did not focus on work rules/wages. If that were the case, Chinese airlines could be blasted due to the extremely low relative wages paid to local Chinese pilots flying 777s and A380s to the US... What about pilots flying for some of the other Mexican airlines serving the US like Interjet and Volaris? Are those pilots paid US legacy wage levels? Are their A320 Captains making even US Regional Captain wages? If not, let's ban them from flying here.

jcountry
01-30-2017, 04:24 PM
OK - if NAI only hires UK citizens for its UK AOC will you be OK with that? Don't be surprised if that happens as a way to appease the protectionist crowds. And the more fuel efficient aircraft like the Dreamliner and the upcoming A321LR help reduce CASMs to the point where they can be profitable - lower pilot wages are not the only reason why NAI can make a profit. Meanwhile, Delta uses a lot of aging 767-300s and 757s over the Atlantic that can't compete on a CASM basis.

Last time I checked, bilateral air treaties did not focus on work rules/wages. If that were the case, Chinese airlines could be blasted due to the extremely low relative wages paid to local Chinese pilots flying 777s and A380s to the US... What about pilots flying for some of the other Mexican airlines serving the US like Interjet and Volaris? Are those pilots paid US legacy wage levels? Are their A320 Captains making even US Regional Captain wages? If not, let's ban them from flying here.


Last time I checked, there wasn't a job worth having on a cruise liner....

Troll on sir. Troll on.

tomgoodman
01-30-2017, 05:59 PM
Last time I checked, there wasn't a job worth having on a cruise liner.....

I saw a guy on Holland America who has been all over the world and usually has only an hour or so of light duty per day, but it's not an easy job to get.
He was a priest. :D

Typhoonpilot
01-30-2017, 06:11 PM
OK-

What's everyone's union telling them about the strategy to deal with NAI now that Trump didn't life a finger to help us?

Ours says that there are multiple strategies they are pursuing. I 'm wondering what others are hearing.


There is a great strategy that could be employed, but the dimwits at ALPA National will probably never figure it out and I'm not going to tell them unless they pay me a huge consultant fee :D


TP

Typhoonpilot
01-30-2017, 06:18 PM
What about pilots flying for some of the other Mexican airlines serving the US like Interjet and Volaris? Are those pilots paid US legacy wage levels? Are their A320 Captains making even US Regional Captain wages? If not, let's ban them from flying here.


I've brought that one up before David, but it doesn't fit the narrow talking points that ALPA has come up with. At $4000/month for Captains at both of those places they are at half to less than half of what Norwegian pays, yet are somehow not a concern for U.S. competition on flights to/from Mexico :rolleyes:

ALPA's strategy is to scare the public into thinking this will be the Maritime industry all over again. Fatal flaw to that strategy is that nobody in the public or government care. The ALPA brain trust is pure genius, genius I tell you!! :D


Typhoonpilot

hostagetofortun
01-30-2017, 06:41 PM
I won't be satisfied until the DOT (DOJ) allows either AA, UA or DL to spin off a portion of their company, buy er I mean acquire an Irish Operating Certificate and begin operations between numerous EU (soon the world) city pairs. Hire crews from the "lowest bidder" and charge as little as possible to draw the sludge and residue from every corner of the earth. AND oh yeh, lets not forget that macroscopic, oops I mean microscopic oversight that Ireland (who have all that extra money) will enforce and ensure that all aspects of the operation and maintenance of the aircraft are 100% AIRWORTHY (all the time).
That we will maintain with our all of our own megabucks we will scrape off the backs of our employees and passengers.
Can't wait to compete.

mainlineAF
01-30-2017, 07:21 PM
I've brought that one up before David, but it doesn't fit the narrow talking points that ALPA has come up with. At $4000/month for Captains at both of those places they are at half to less than half of what Norwegian pays, yet are somehow not a concern for U.S. competition on flights to/from Mexico :rolleyes:



ALPA's strategy is to scare the public into thinking this will be the Maritime industry all over again. Fatal flaw to that strategy is that nobody in the public or government care. The ALPA brain trust is pure genius, genius I tell you!! :D





Typhoonpilot



Well most of those airlines that pay so little (South America comes to mind) have native pilots flying for them. It is much less cheaper to live in Colombia than in NYC, where NAI is basing their Irish/American/UK/Asian/whatever crews.

NMuir
01-30-2017, 07:27 PM
How about we allow the free market of competition for a change?

Sniper66
01-30-2017, 07:58 PM
There is a great strategy that could be employed, but the dimwits at ALPA National will probably never figure it out and I'm not going to tell them unless they pay me a huge consultant fee :D


TP






Are you still on the Arab EK payroll as a consultant or just a sim instructor for NAI

Go away, go hide at the Appalachian mountains or maybe Usair will give you a chance again. Wasn't you that got **** canned from Usair?
ALPA could not get your job back during section 19 hearings?
Is this the reason you hate ALPA so much ?

Therefore, leave ALPA alone, we know you hate unions

Typhoonpilot
01-30-2017, 08:37 PM
Are you still on the Arab EK payroll as a consultant or just a sim instructor for NAI

Go away, go hide at the Appalachian mountains or maybe Usair will give you a chance again. Wasn't you that got **** canned from Usair?
ALPA could not get your job back during section 19 hearings?
Is this the reason you hate ALPA so much ?

Therefore, leave ALPA alone, we know you hate unions


Note even close, but thanks for playing.

1) Not on EK payroll
2) Never affiliated with NAI and not currently a sim instructor
3) Never had any action taken against me by any company
4) Voted ALPA onto property at first airline I worked for
5) The reason I dislike ALPA is they are incompetent and fail miserably to provide a cohesive strategy to ensure dues paying ALPA members can enjoy a stable and rewarding career as an airline pilot.
6) I don't hate unions, I hate incompetence and pettiness (as witnessed by someone attacking the messenger versus the message ;) ).

......and again, there is a very simple and cohesive strategy that could easily work, but nobody in ALPA is intelligent enough to think of it. They're too busy trying to create a boogie man that nobody outside of airline pilots is scared of. So again, I offer my services as a consultant to ALPA to help all ALPA pilots win this battle. But I don't work for free.


Typhoonpilot

DenverPilot8
01-30-2017, 11:20 PM
On a separate note did you know that your handle name is displayed at the top every time you post? I wasn't sure because you sign every post at the bottom. Seems redundant.......

#Denverpilot8 #post #airlinepilot #forum #sign #signature #isignedthis

The Dominican
01-30-2017, 11:54 PM
On a separate note did you know that your handle name is displayed at the top every time you post? I wasn't sure because you sign every post at the bottom. Seems redundant.......

#Denverpilot8 #post #airlinepilot #forum #sign #signature #isignedthis

Pilots have the attention span of a goldfish......, so in lengthy posts it could come quite handy....!

Oh look! A rock!......, there is a rock again!:D

Airhoss
01-31-2017, 04:59 AM
Note even close, but thanks for playing.

1) Not on EK payroll
2) Never affiliated with NAI and not currently a sim instructor
3) Never had any action taken against me by any company
4) Voted ALPA onto property at first airline I worked for
5) The reason I dislike ALPA is they are incompetent and fail miserably to provide a cohesive strategy to ensure dues paying ALPA members can enjoy a stable and rewarding career as an airline pilot.
6) I don't hate unions, I hate incompetence and pettiness (as witnessed by someone attacking the messenger versus the message ;) ).

......and again, there is a very simple and cohesive strategy that could easily work, but nobody in ALPA is intelligent enough to think of it. They're too busy trying to create a boogie man that nobody outside of airline pilots is scared of. So again, I offer my services as a consultant to ALPA to help all ALPA pilots win this battle. But I don't work for free.


Typhoonpilot

Yet another master of industry who also flies airplanes and hangs out on APC. I'll bet you are full financial, relationship and auto mechanical advice too aren't you?

full of luv
01-31-2017, 05:17 AM
Last time I checked, bilateral air treaties did not focus on work rules/wages. If that were the case, Chinese airlines could be blasted due to the extremely low relative wages paid to local Chinese pilots flying 777s and A380s to the US... What about pilots flying for some of the other Mexican airlines serving the US like Interjet and Volaris? Are those pilots paid US legacy wage levels? Are their A320 Captains making even US Regional Captain wages? If not, let's ban them from flying here.

Can you not see a difference between a Mexican Airline, using Mexican pilots to fly between Mexico and the US? Chinese Airlines using Chinese pilots to fly between the US and China, and a Norwegian company using contracted labor through a Singapore agency, basing their planes Ireland to reap whatever benefits that allows, solely to skirt the laws of their own nation?

Competition from an airline operating by the same rules, without government subsidies is fair. Will you not be satisfied until all the US based airlines are forced from existence and you can pay Air India to fly from LAX to NYC?

jcountry
01-31-2017, 05:30 AM
How about we allow the free market of competition for a change?



So you'd be happy to fly for nothing? Happy to fly on a contract-where you can be fired for refusing to do something you think is unsafe (or for absolutely any reason they can dream up?) Happy with 6 days off per month.

Emirates is hiring.

Half wing
01-31-2017, 08:06 AM
OK - if NAI only hires UK citizens for its UK AOC will you be OK with that? Don't be surprised if that happens as a way to appease the protectionist crowds. And the more fuel efficient aircraft like the Dreamliner and the upcoming A321LR help reduce CASMs to the point where they can be profitable - lower pilot wages are not the only reason why NAI can make a profit. Meanwhile, Delta uses a lot of aging 767-300s and 757s over the Atlantic that can't compete on a CASM basis.

Last time I checked, bilateral air treaties did not focus on work rules/wages. If that were the case, Chinese airlines could be blasted due to the extremely low relative wages paid to local Chinese pilots flying 777s and A380s to the US... What about pilots flying for some of the other Mexican airlines serving the US like Interjet and Volaris? Are those pilots paid US legacy wage levels? Are their A320 Captains making even US Regional Captain wages? If not, let's ban them from flying here.

Those new sparkies come with big payments also. With fuel price at its current state, the CASM is better on a paid for 75/76.

Half wing
01-31-2017, 08:11 AM
Note even close, but thanks for playing.

1) Not on EK payroll
2) Never affiliated with NAI and not currently a sim instructor
3) Never had any action taken against me by any company
4) Voted ALPA onto property at first airline I worked for
5) The reason I dislike ALPA is they are incompetent and fail miserably to provide a cohesive strategy to ensure dues paying ALPA members can enjoy a stable and rewarding career as an airline pilot.
6) I don't hate unions, I hate incompetence and pettiness (as witnessed by someone attacking the messenger versus the message ;) ).

......and again, there is a very simple and cohesive strategy that could easily work, but nobody in ALPA is intelligent enough to think of it. They're too busy trying to create a boogie man that nobody outside of airline pilots is scared of. So again, I offer my services as a consultant to ALPA to help all ALPA pilots win this battle. But I don't work for free.


Typhoonpilot

If ALPA is so dumb then how come ALPA pilots are the highest paid? You sound like you would rather bring everyone down to your level instead of help to bring everyone up.

GogglesPisano
01-31-2017, 08:13 AM
If ALPA is so dumb then how come ALPA pilots are the highest paid? You sound like you would rather bring everyone down to your level instead of help to bring everyone up.

No kidding. I'm enjoying more time off and making more money than ever. Frikkin' ALPA!

Sniper66
01-31-2017, 09:53 AM
So you'd be happy to fly for nothing? Happy to fly on a contract-where you can be fired for refusing to do something you think is unsafe (or for absolutely any reason they can dream up?) Happy with 6 days off per month.

Emirates is hiring.




Emirates is hiring !!!!
Good one

92 hours hard flying plus bunk time
A captain makes less than a Delta 777 FO hands down
But but they get free housing and free school and no taxes
Quality of life ? 19-21 days off for the delta WB FO

Sniper66
01-31-2017, 09:55 AM
If ALPA is so dumb then how come ALPA pilots are the highest paid? You sound like you would rather bring everyone down to your level instead of help to bring everyone up.





He hates ALPA because of what happened to him at Usair before he went to EK

He will never admit that and honestly I don't expect anything from him other than blasting the Legacies, promoting the Arabs from Dubai and hating ALPA

There is a reason for so much hate ....don't you think ?

Andy
01-31-2017, 01:54 PM
Emirates is hiring !!!!
Good one

92 hours hard flying plus bunk time
A captain makes less than a Delta 777 FO hands down
But but they get free housing and free school and no taxes
Quality of life ? 19-21 days off for the delta WB FO

Two corrections
I'm pretty sure that the school supplement isn't enough to fully cover the cost of sending your kids to school anymore and
US expats are subject to income tax on everything above $95K/yr. And not discussed but the IRS has a higher audit rate for expats. So expats have that going for them.

NEDude
01-31-2017, 01:58 PM
I won't be satisfied until the DOT (DOJ) allows either AA, UA or DL to spin off a portion of their company, buy er I mean acquire an Irish Operating Certificate and begin operations between numerous EU (soon the world) city pairs. Hire crews from the "lowest bidder" and charge as little as possible to draw the sludge and residue from every corner of the earth. AND oh yeh, lets not forget that macroscopic, oops I mean microscopic oversight that Ireland (who have all that extra money) will enforce and ensure that all aspects of the operation and maintenance of the aircraft are 100% AIRWORTHY (all the time).
That we will maintain with our all of our own megabucks we will scrape off the backs of our employees and passengers.
Can't wait to compete.

How about taking a little bit of time to learn about the EU/EEA laws and EASA regulations before you spout off on something you clearly know nothing about.

EU/EEA agreements allow companies to set up subsidiaries in any other member countries. AA, DL and UA are U.S. based companies, so they cannot set up subsidiaries in Ireland. Norwegian can because because Norway is part of the EEA. Many companies in Europe in all industries have subsidiaries in multiple EU/EEA countries. As I have pointed out multiple times, several airlines do this, not just Norwegian.

Ireland is a very well respected EASA member and ICAO rates the IAA among the best of the national CAAs. EASA regulations allow full oversight from any EASA member. An Irish registered airline and aircraft operating in and out of Spain can be fully inspected and overseen by Spanish EASA inspectors. The Spanish authorities will have full access to any and all documents, manuals, approvals and records.

NEDude
01-31-2017, 02:21 PM
Can you not see a difference between a Mexican Airline, using Mexican pilots to fly between Mexico and the US? Chinese Airlines using Chinese pilots to fly between the US and China, and a Norwegian company using contracted labor through a Singapore agency, basing their planes Ireland to reap whatever benefits that allows, solely to skirt the laws of their own nation?

Competition from an airline operating by the same rules, without government subsidies is fair. Will you not be satisfied until all the US based airlines are forced from existence and you can pay Air India to fly from LAX to NYC?

What about Chinese airlines that use Mexican pilots to fly to the US? What about Korean Airlines using Canadian pilots? What about a Middle Eastern Airline using European pilots?

And for the love of God, please stop listening to ALPA and their lies!! NORWEGIAN DOES NOT HIRE PILOTS THROUGH A SINGAPORE AGENCY!!!!!! Why do you believe this blatant lie (duhhh, because ALPA says so and I can't be bothered to check facts)? Norwegian hires pilots through Global Crew UK, which is based in Ipswich, UK, or through OSM which is based in Oslo, Norway.

Are you also aware that NAI does not have any pilots based in Bangkok? I bet you think they do. I bet you also think Norwegian created the Irish subsidiary so they could open the Bangkok base. I am also betting that you think NAI operates 787s. You are wrong on all counts if you believe that. The BKK based pilots are operating for Norwegian Air Shuttle (NAS), which is based in Bærum, Norway. So guess what that means? It means Norwegian created the BKK base in complete accordance with Norwegian labour laws (they also use contract crews in complete compliance with Norwegian labour laws). NAI is an all 737 operator, all of the 787s are assigned to the NAS AOC.

Lastly, another big oversight in ALPAs badly flawed, and often blatantly wrong video: EU labour laws require employees and contractors be covered by the labour laws of the country where they are based, in addition to where there contract is based. So a BKK based pilot employed through an OSM contract will be covered by both Thailand AND Norwegian labour law. A CDG based pilot employed through Global Crew UK will be covered under both French and UK labour laws. To add to this, EASA and EU regulations also mean that you are protected by the labour laws of the country of aircraft registration. So it is possible to be covered under the labour laws of three separate countries all at the same time. Creating NAI does nothing to get around the myriad of labour laws and regulations covering the EU, EEA and EASA.

ALPA conveniently forgets to point out all those things when it spouting off. Ever wonder why that is or do you just take everything they say with blind faith?

NMuir
01-31-2017, 06:08 PM
So you'd be happy to fly for nothing? Happy to fly on a contract-where you can be fired for refusing to do something you think is unsafe (or for absolutely any reason they can dream up?)
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/black-or-white

NEDude
01-31-2017, 08:47 PM
Will WOW use Iceland work rules? Will Eurowings use German unions? Will BA use Spanish work rules? That is the discriminator, is the offshoring just to break unions and and western work rules or just to compete from a new base. Norwegian is allowed to fly from Norway to the US at will, of course those work rules cost too much to allow them to do it for $199 each way.

Norwegian must, by EU/EEA laws and EASA regulations, use the labour laws of the country where the crew is based, where the contract is based, and where the aircraft is registered. Contrary to ALPA statements, Norwegian does not hire pilots through a Singapore based agency. All pilots are hired through Global Crew UK, based in the UK, or OSM, which is based in Norway. So all pilots regardless of where they are based, are covered under either Norwegian or UK labour laws, even the BKK based pilots, none of which do any flying for NAI.

NEDude
01-31-2017, 08:50 PM
OK - if NAI only hires UK citizens for its UK AOC will you be OK with that?

NAI does not have a UK AOC. The Norwegian group has a UK AOC (called NUK). They also have two Norwegian AOCs (NAS and NAN), and they have the Irish AOC (NAI).

Typhoonpilot
01-31-2017, 09:46 PM
If ALPA is so dumb then how come ALPA pilots are the highest paid? You sound like you would rather bring everyone down to your level instead of help to bring everyone up.



More false assumptions :)

hostagetofortun
02-01-2017, 11:29 AM
How about taking a little bit of time to learn about the EU/EEA laws and EASA regulations before you spout off on something you clearly know nothing about.

EU/EEA agreements allow companies to set up subsidiaries in any other member countries. AA, DL and UA are U.S. based companies, so they cannot set up subsidiaries in Ireland. Norwegian can because because Norway is part of the EEA. Many companies in Europe in all industries have subsidiaries in multiple EU/EEA countries. As I have pointed out multiple times, several airlines do this, not just Norwegian.

Ireland is a very well respected EASA member and ICAO rates the IAA among the best of the national CAAs. EASA regulations allow full oversight from any EASA member. An Irish registered airline and aircraft operating in and out of Spain can be fully inspected and overseen by Spanish EASA inspectors. The Spanish authorities will have full access to any and all documents, manuals, approvals and records.
Wow, you are so fixed on spewing your drivel you can't even take the time to read what you are about to attack.
Of course you're actually attacking me for my first post but you are not quite sure how to do that.
I don't think you have the depth of knowledge to adequately debate this issue.
I'll give it a go here in response but I'm not going to carry on with someone as immature as you are.
If you actually read my first sentence, you would note that I said "we" would need DOT authority to spin off a portion and "buy" an AOC for it in another country. I understand we can't do that; that's why I said that. I understand they can do that but we'll get to that in a moment.
I see you have pointed out multiple times that other airlines do this; let me point out, so what, I don't care, it doesn't help support the idea at all, it doesn't matter how many can do it until I can do it.
It also doesn't matter to me how well respected the Irish CAA is. I am all too familiar with how government agencies are funded and work. I know specifically what it takes for an agency to design and implement and fund the oversight of an airline with operations and maintenance in another country. The money and staffing it takes is off the charts; the US is not accomplishing it with our foreign 145 repair stations but the paperwork says it is. You have to be either ignorant or naive to believe it.
And now back to the "spin off"; if people with your limited and narrow vision are successful in convincing others that this is just about competition then so be it. But to produce a level playing field for us to compete we have to be able to set up the same scenario.
I believe they won't last long before it becomes obvious we left lessons learned somewhere in the dust.

full of luv
02-01-2017, 05:25 PM
Norwegian must, by EU/EEA laws and EASA regulations, use the labour laws of the country where the crew is based, where the contract is based, and where the aircraft is registered. Contrary to ALPA statements, Norwegian does not hire pilots through a Singapore based agency. All pilots are hired through Global Crew UK, based in the UK, or OSM, which is based in Norway. So all pilots regardless of where they are based, are covered under either Norwegian or UK labour laws, even the BKK based pilots, none of which do any flying for NAI.

If it's all as you claim.... then why set up the three way country schemes in the first place, they're corporations, it has to be to save $$$ in some way, because the administration alone would add cost, so the savings must be coming from some other source, most likely maintenance and labor.

That's the offshoring/ Flag of Convenience concern. Even the Korean carrier using Canadians are flying from KOREA to the US. IF NAI wants to fly all day from OSLO to every major US City, no one would take notice.
It's the same beef that the US airlines have with the ME carriers who now want to fly Milan to NYC, it's third party/country flying that only serves to skirt (what they deem as expensive) safety and employee protections set up in those countries they want to serve.

David Puddy
02-01-2017, 06:10 PM
If it's all as you claim.... then why set up the three way country schemes in the first place, they're corporations, it has to be to save $$$ in some way, because the administration alone would add cost, so the savings must be coming from some other source, most likely maintenance and labor.

That's the offshoring/ Flag of Convenience concern. Even the Korean carrier using Canadians are flying from KOREA to the US. IF NAI wants to fly all day from OSLO to every major US City, no one would take notice.
It's the same beef that the US airlines have with the ME carriers who now want to fly Milan to NYC, it's third party/country flying that only serves to skirt (what they deem as expensive) safety and employee protections set up in those countries they want to serve.

Now SAS is joining the party:

SAS to register planes in Ireland and set up bases in Europe (http://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/sas-to-register-planes-in-ireland-and-set-up-bases-in-europe-1.2959139)

Andy
02-01-2017, 11:24 PM
Now SAS is joining the party:

SAS to register planes in Ireland and set up bases in Europe (http://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/sas-to-register-planes-in-ireland-and-set-up-bases-in-europe-1.2959139)

The EU can't fall apart soon enough. Hopefully Mme Le Pen pushes for FREXIT.

NEDude
02-02-2017, 11:31 PM
If it's all as you claim.... then why set up the three way country schemes in the first place, they're corporations, it has to be to save $$$ in some way, because the administration alone would add cost, so the savings must be coming from some other source, most likely maintenance and labor.

That's the offshoring/ Flag of Convenience concern. Even the Korean carrier using Canadians are flying from KOREA to the US. IF NAI wants to fly all day from OSLO to every major US City, no one would take notice.
It's the same beef that the US airlines have with the ME carriers who now want to fly Milan to NYC, it's third party/country flying that only serves to skirt (what they deem as expensive) safety and employee protections set up in those countries they want to serve.

There has been no secret about the desire to set up an Irish, and now UK, subsidiary. It is about traffic rights. This has been well publicised if you bother to look outside the ALPA drivel.

Csy Mon
02-03-2017, 01:03 AM
. If it's all as you claim.... then why set up the three way country schemes in the first place, they're corporations, it has to be to save $$$ in some way, because the administration alone would add cost, so the savings must be coming from some other source, most likely maintenance and labor.

NAI set up shop in Ireland for low corporate taxes and less employee benefits and rights than in Norway. (The original Norwegian Air 737 pilots did not have a scope clause)

coorsFlight
02-03-2017, 09:15 AM
Keep on fighting!

Norwegian plans to expand operations and buy many more B787s — if the carrier can overcome opposition from US airlines and unions. In addition, carrier plans to launch flights from Seattle to London with B787 if UK subsidiary approved by US DOT.

buffalopilot
02-04-2017, 01:17 PM
Rules of convenience and alternative facts abound on Norwegian Air's application | TheHill (http://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/economy-budget/317664-rules-of-convenience-and-alternative-facts-abound-on)

BigDukeSix
02-05-2017, 04:39 AM
I don't care about the specifics of NAI. I know a shady scheme when I see it. Any pilot who takes a job with NAI should be blackballed from getting a job with an American carrier.

captjns
02-05-2017, 07:27 AM
I don't care about the specifics of NAI. I know a shady scheme when I see it. Any pilot who takes a job with NAI should be blackballed from getting a job with an American carrier.


Proof positive folks... the MMPS and Hogan tests aren't fool proof.;)

bay982
02-05-2017, 01:50 PM
I don't care about specifics?

Another way to say that would be, literally, "I am intentionally ignorant"

I don't care about the specifics of NAI. I know a shady scheme when I see it. Any pilot who takes a job with NAI should be blackballed from getting a job with an American carrier.

BigDukeSix
02-05-2017, 07:22 PM
I don't care about specifics?

Another way to say that would be, literally, "I am intentionally ignorant"
I know the specifics. What do you have to offer that would change my mind about NAI?

NEDude
02-06-2017, 07:11 AM
I don't care about the specifics of NAI. I know a shady scheme when I see it. Any pilot who takes a job with NAI should be blackballed from getting a job with an American carrier.

I don't think many of them really care about being blackballed by American carriers. Latest word from the folks I know at Norwegian is they have more than enough European pilots who have dual US citizenship or right to live/work in the US that want to go to a US base, that there is no need to hire pilots in the States.

SUX4U
02-06-2017, 08:17 AM
I don't think many of them really care about being blackballed by American carriers. Latest word from the folks I know at Norwegian is they have more than enough European pilots who have dual US citizenship or right to live/work in the US that want to go to a US base, that there is no need to hire pilots in the States.

So why wouldn't those pilots with rights to live and work in the US want to get as far away from NAI to fly for a legacy that has pay, work rules and QOL that NAI can't compare to? I know we all have our issues at the US3 and are far from perfect. However, I really can't understand why those who could live and work here wouldn't want the job that is currently far superior to NAI.

If there are a few that do want to fly for a legacy here then maybe the fear of a black list would make these guys reevaluate their long term career goals?

Airhoss
02-06-2017, 11:15 AM
So why wouldn't those pilots with rights to live and work in the US want to get as far away from NAI to fly for a legacy that has pay, work rules and QOL that NAI can't compare to? I know we all have our issues at the US3 and are far from perfect. However, I really can't understand why those who could live and work here wouldn't want the job that is currently far superior to NAI.

If there are a few that do want to fly for a legacy here then maybe the fear of a black list would make these guys reevaluate their long term career goals?

Lower hiring standards would be a good place to start your search...

NEDude
02-06-2017, 12:31 PM
So why wouldn't those pilots with rights to live and work in the US want to get as far away from NAI to fly for a legacy that has pay, work rules and QOL that NAI can't compare to? I know we all have our issues at the US3 and are far from perfect. However, I really can't understand why those who could live and work here wouldn't want the job that is currently far superior to NAI.

If there are a few that do want to fly for a legacy here then maybe the fear of a black list would make these guys reevaluate their long term career goals?

Because many of those guys are highly experienced, in their 40s or 50s, don't know much about the U.S. airline industry, and don't want to start at the bottom of a U.S. seniority list and deal with all the crap that comes with it.

The thing I have noticed about many European pilots is that once you get a command (as they like to call it), you don't give it up voluntarily. Giving up a 737 (or 787) command, to go back to the right seat for an undetermined period of time is just not done. So the thought of possibly going to the right seat of a U.S. airline is most likely not all that tempting for them.

SUX4U
02-06-2017, 01:35 PM
Because many of those guys are highly experienced, in their 40s or 50s, don't know much about the U.S. airline industry, and don't want to start at the bottom of a U.S. seniority list and deal with all the crap that comes with it.

The thing I have noticed about many European pilots is that once you get a command (as they like to call it), you don't give it up voluntarily. Giving up a 737 (or 787) command, to go back to the right seat for an undetermined period of time is just not done. So the thought of possibly going to the right seat of a U.S. airline is most likely not all that tempting for them.

So is it an ego thing that they feel it's more important to be in the left seat working more days for less pay compared to say a year 2 or 3 legacy FO that works less, and paid more with better benefits?

As far as age and experience goes for an excuse, I'm not really buying that. I believe the average age of new hires at United is 37. We see plenty of pilots with tons of experience getting hired in their late 40's to late 50's.

I get the cultural norms can be very influential around the world such as not wanting to give up a "command" voluntarily. I do have a hard time wrapping my head around the notion that pilots with the ability to work and live in the US would be so short sighted to not pursue an airline that will most likely be better in all categories. Whatever makes them happy I guess. Clearly pay and QOL isn't one of them.

NEDude
02-06-2017, 10:04 PM
So is it an ego thing that they feel it's more important to be in the left seat working more days for less pay compared to say a year 2 or 3 legacy FO that works less, and paid more with better benefits?

As far as age and experience goes for an excuse, I'm not really buying that. I believe the average age of new hires at United is 37. We see plenty of pilots with tons of experience getting hired in their late 40's to late 50's.

I get the cultural norms can be very influential around the world such as not wanting to give up a "command" voluntarily. I do have a hard time wrapping my head around the notion that pilots with the ability to work and live in the US would be so short sighted to not pursue an airline that will most likely be better in all categories. Whatever makes them happy I guess. Clearly pay and QOL isn't one of them.

Depends on your view of QOL. The idea of not being able to plan your life more than a six weeks in advance, or spending a few years on reserve duty, having domiciles downsized or closed (it was not that long ago that CVG was a major hub for Delta and PIT was a major hub for USAirways), not getting four to six weeks of vacation each year, and not having a 75%, 50% or 25% contract option available is not very appealing to many. Remember the days of only spending 2-3 years as an FO at a legacy is only a very recent development, and may only last for a short period of time. It was not too long ago that 20 year guys at USAirways were still FOs and 10 year guys were still sitting on reserve. It will not take too much for that to be the case again.

CousinEddie
02-07-2017, 05:29 AM
Depends on your view of QOL. The idea of not being able to plan your life more than a six weeks in advance, or spending a few years on reserve duty, having domiciles downsized or closed (it was not that long ago that CVG was a major hub for Delta and PIT was a major hub for USAirways), not getting four to six weeks of vacation each year, and not having a 75%, 50% or 25% contract option available is not very appealing to many. Remember the days of only spending 2-3 years as an FO at a legacy is only a very recent development, and may only last for a short period of time. It was not too long ago that 20 year guys at USAirways were still FOs and 10 year guys were still sitting on reserve. It will not take too much for that to be the case again.

I've always chuckled at the "I must be captain" types. At the US legacies, many widebody FOs have no interest in flying domestic left seat or are at least in no hurry to go do it. Twenty plus year guys deliberately staying in a wide body right seat is common. The additional time away from base vs. the relatively modest additional narrow body left seat pay simply isn't worth it. The result these days? Two to three year captains. Or in Delta's case, a few actually upgrading to MD-88 left seat in their first year (New York, of course).

captjns
02-07-2017, 06:34 AM
So is it an ego thing that they feel it's more important to be in the left seat working more days for less pay compared to say a year 2 or 3 legacy FO that works less, and paid more with better benefits?

As far as age and experience goes for an excuse, I'm not really buying that. I believe the average age of new hires at United is 37. We see plenty of pilots with tons of experience getting hired in their late 40's to late 50's.

I get the cultural norms can be very influential around the world such as not wanting to give up a "command" voluntarily. I do have a hard time wrapping my head around the notion that pilots with the ability to work and live in the US would be so short sighted to not pursue an airline that will most likely be better in all categories. Whatever makes them happy I guess. Clearly pay and QOL isn't one of them.

Not all share your views about joining a U.S. regarding quality of the airline, quality of service, quality of the product, quality of life to etc. But on the flip side, there's nothing better than sleeping in your own bed in your own country on a consistent basis. I've been overseas since 1992. For me it's not a left seat or command thing. I am not intrigued in joining a U.S. carrier, number 15,000+ on a seniority list with a furlough running 5,000 deep in the back of my mind. I enjoy my three weeks off in January, then in July each year. I enjoy my monthly block off with paid business class tickets to my home airport too. But that's me.

full of luv
02-07-2017, 07:29 AM
Depends on your view of QOL. The idea of not being able to plan your life more than a six weeks in advance, or spending a few years on reserve duty, having domiciles downsized or closed (it was not that long ago that CVG was a major hub for Delta and PIT was a major hub for USAirways), not getting four to six weeks of vacation each year, and not having a 75%, 50% or 25% contract option available is not very appealing to many. Remember the days of only spending 2-3 years as an FO at a legacy is only a very recent development, and may only last for a short period of time. It was not too long ago that 20 year guys at USAirways were still FOs and 10 year guys werestill sitting on reserve. It will not take too much for that to be the case again.

Everything changes all the time. I find it interesting that you compare the status of CVG and PIT as hubs from 20 years ago with the current NAI status.

If you would have told me in 2010 that within 5 years Delta will be hiring over 1000 pilots a year, paying a pilot on avg around $200K AND paying profit sharing for over 3 years in a row exceeding $50K a year for many pilots, I would have been equally dismissive.

Do you not think in one instant that NAI won't be essentially reorganized in less than 10 years if they can start up a like airline with new contracts, new employees based in even a lower paying country just to get around those expensive NAI employees? All corporations are out to make money for their shareholders (and upper mgmt. to a certain extent) everyone else is just along for the ride and unions / regulations are about the only thing they have protecting them from the unwashed masses of labor available around the world.

I guess we'll see in 2035 if your still around singing the praises of NAI, but I wouldn't bet a nickel on it.

RSQHercPilot
02-07-2017, 08:00 AM
NAI part of the final showcase on The Price is Right this morning

intrepidcv11
02-07-2017, 10:21 AM
Depends on your view of QOL. The idea of not being able to plan your life more than a six weeks in advance, or spending a few years on reserve duty, having domiciles downsized or closed (it was not that long ago that CVG was a major hub for Delta and PIT was a major hub for USAirways), not getting four to six weeks of vacation each year, and not having a 75%, 50% or 25% contract option available is not very appealing to many. Remember the days of only spending 2-3 years as an FO at a legacy is only a very recent development, and may only last for a short period of time. It was not too long ago that 20 year guys at USAirways were still FOs and 10 year guys were still sitting on reserve. It will not take too much for that to be the case again.

It might be just my view on QOL, but 10 guaranteed days off with long haul flying will result in a horrid QOL even with 6 weeks vacy.

FlyDive
02-07-2017, 11:27 AM
I don't think many of them really care about being blackballed by American carriers. Latest word from the folks I know at Norwegian is they have more than enough European pilots who have dual US citizenship or right to live/work in the US that want to go to a US base, that there is no need to hire pilots in the States.

Having dual citizenship seems very unfair as well.

Andy
02-07-2017, 12:23 PM
Not all share your views about joining a U.S. regarding quality of the airline, quality of service, quality of the product, quality of life to etc. But on the flip side, there's nothing better than sleeping in your own bed in your own country on a consistent basis. I've been overseas since 1992. For me it's not a left seat or command thing. I am not intrigued in joining a U.S. carrier, number 15,000+ on a seniority list with a furlough running 5,000 deep in the back of my mind. I enjoy my three weeks off in January, then in July each year. I enjoy my monthly block off with paid business class tickets to my home airport too. But that's me.

.... and yet you have more than 4,000 posts on a US-centric forum. Not logical.

SUX4U
02-07-2017, 01:08 PM
.... and yet you have more than 4,000 posts on a US-centric forum. Not logical.

So much wasted time for something to have no interest in.

Andy
02-07-2017, 04:32 PM
So much wasted time for something to have no interest in.

It would be like me hanging out on Pprune. I think I've been there less than a dozen times. Ever. And I do not have an account there.

captjns
02-07-2017, 05:40 PM
.... and yet you have more than 4,000 posts on a US-centric forum. Not logical.

I'm sure you can find someone to explain it to you:rolleyes:.

Andy
02-07-2017, 07:13 PM
I'm sure you can find someone to explain it to you:rolleyes:.

LOL! No explanation needed - pretty much everyone here has it figured out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_jWHffIx5E

Mugatu
02-08-2017, 04:11 AM
Elaine Chao's father made a fortune using maritime flag of convenience. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

Elaine's husband will not help.

Trump will side with Boeing.

I think the only hope is Ireland exiting the EU. It's possible since May announced a hard Brexit.

Another possibility, but less of a positive outcome, would be if Brussels finally cracked down on Ireland's corporate tax scheme. They've been talking about it. Bad thing NAI will have already been established. It would slow them down but it wouldn't kill them off like a Irexit.

NEDude
02-08-2017, 04:47 AM
It might be just my view on QOL, but 10 guaranteed days off with long haul flying will result in a horrid QOL even with 6 weeks vacy.

Do the math of long haul flying and tell me if it is actually possible to only have ten days off each month and meet required rest requirements and be within flight time limits.

NEDude
02-08-2017, 05:07 AM
Everything changes all the time. I find it interesting that you compare the status of CVG and PIT as hubs from 20 years ago with the current NAI status.

If you would have told me in 2010 that within 5 years Delta will be hiring over 1000 pilots a year, paying a pilot on avg around $200K AND paying profit sharing for over 3 years in a row exceeding $50K a year for many pilots, I would have been equally dismissive.

Do you not think in one instant that NAI won't be essentially reorganized in less than 10 years if they can start up a like airline with new contracts, new employees based in even a lower paying country just to get around those expensive NAI employees? All corporations are out to make money for their shareholders (and upper mgmt. to a certain extent) everyone else is just along for the ride and unions / regulations are about the only thing they have protecting them from the unwashed masses of labor available around the world.

I guess we'll see in 2035 if your still around singing the praises of NAI, but I wouldn't bet a nickel on it.

20 years ago? Well yes, they were major hubs 20 years ago. But they were a decade ago as well. The point is that the industry changes quite a bit. Ten years ago Northwest had a hub in Minneapolis, Continental had a hub in Cleveland, USAirways had a hub in Pittsburgh, and Midwest Airlines had a hub in Milwaukee. Now those airlines do not exist and the hubs are closed. Ten years ago Alaska was fighting tooth and nail to keep Virgin America from getting its operating certificate. Now Alaska wholly owns Virgin America and working to merge the operations together.

Do you not think for one minute that if the industry goes through a hiccup that American, Delta and United will not file for bankruptcy protection (again), and shred all the nice contracts and reduce employee benefits? It was less than 20 years ago that all the legacy airlines had nice pension plans. How well do those plans look now?

The industry is in constant flux, it has been since at least deregulation. If you think you can do anything to change that pattern, you are a fool.

NEDude
02-08-2017, 05:11 AM
Having dual citizenship seems very unfair as well.

Only seems unfair if you do not qualify for it.

intrepidcv11
02-08-2017, 05:17 AM
Do the math of long haul flying and tell me if it is actually possible to only have ten days off each month and meet required rest requirements and be within flight time limits.

Depends on how crudely productive one builds the trip. Extended layover and/or a W Pattern can easily cut you down to 10-12 days at home. The fact they even put it in print tells me OSM wants to have ability to use such a wonderful work rule.

NEDude
02-08-2017, 05:21 AM
Elaine Chao's father made a fortune using maritime flag of convenience. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

Elaine's husband will not help.

Trump will side with Boeing.

I think the only hope is Ireland exiting the EU. It's possible since May announced a hard Brexit.

Another possibility, but less of a positive outcome, would be if Brussels finally cracked down on Ireland's corporate tax scheme. They've been talking about it. Bad thing NAI will have already been established. It would slow them down but it wouldn't kill them off like a Irexit.

Ireland is not leaving the EU. In fact they are even more committed to the EU in the wake of the Brexit. Ireland is actively promoting itself as the new English speaking gateway to the EU and trying to lure major companies away from the UK as a result of the Brexit.

NAI has been established and operating for several years now. Your statement that "NAI will have already been established..." makes it appear that you believe they are not an already established and operating airline.

intrepidcv11
02-08-2017, 05:31 AM
20 years ago? Well yes, they were major hubs 20 years ago. But they were a decade ago as well. The point is that the industry changes quite a bit. Ten years ago Northwest had a hub in Minneapolis, Continental had a hub in Cleveland, USAirways had a hub in Pittsburgh, and Midwest Airlines had a hub in Milwaukee. Now those airlines do not exist and the hubs are closed. Ten years ago Alaska was fighting tooth and nail to keep Virgin America from getting its operating certificate. Now Alaska wholly owns Virgin America and working to merge the operations together.

Do you not think for one minute that if the industry goes through a hiccup that American, Delta and United will not file for bankruptcy protection (again), and shred all the nice contracts and reduce employee benefits? It was less than 20 years ago that all the legacy airlines had nice pension plans. How well do those plans look now?

The industry is in constant flux, it has been since at least deregulation. If you think you can do anything to change that pattern, you are a fool.

So based on your gospel 9/11 and seismic after effects were a hickup? So any downturn means 9/11 type bankruptcies despite years of consolidation and profitability? Thanks for your stellar analysis professor.

NEDude
02-08-2017, 05:38 AM
Depends on how crudely productive one builds the trip. Extended layover at destination can easily cut you down to 10-12 days at home. The fact they even put it in print tells me OSM wants to have ability to use such a wonderful work rule.

It is not that hard to figure out the schedules, you can ask any of the agencies if they have copies of them. Or ask someone who works there.

From what I have gathered almost all layovers are around 24-26 hours. LAX and BKK have the occasional 48 hour layovers, but those are rare. My neighbour averages 15 days off at home each month.

NEDude
02-08-2017, 05:46 AM
So based on your gospel 9/11 and seismic after effects were a hickup? So any downturn means 9/11 type bankruptcies despite years of consolidation and profitability? Thanks for your stellar analysis professor.

Apparently you are forgetting the downturn in the financial crisis of 2008. And the downturn during the recession in the early 1990s that resulted in the loss of Pan Am, Eastern and the original Midway, along with the bankruptcies of Continental and America West. Or the downturn in the early 1980s that resulted in the loss of Braniff. Perhaps you are forgetting the 1980s mergers of Republic-Northwest, Piedmont-USAir, Continental-PeoplExpress and all the others that resulted in hiring disruptions. Perhaps you are forgetting the SARS scare of 2003.

Since deregulation and not including 9/11 the industry has averaged a major downturn approximately every ten years. But feel free to be foolish enough to think all of the downturns are done.

Half wing
02-08-2017, 06:09 AM
20 years ago? Well yes, they were major hubs 20 years ago. But they were a decade ago as well. The point is that the industry changes quite a bit. Ten years ago Northwest had a hub in Minneapolis, Continental had a hub in Cleveland, USAirways had a hub in Pittsburgh, and Midwest Airlines had a hub in Milwaukee. Now those airlines do not exist and the hubs are closed. Ten years ago Alaska was fighting tooth and nail to keep Virgin America from getting its operating certificate. Now Alaska wholly owns Virgin America and working to merge the operations together.

Do you not think for one minute that if the industry goes through a hiccup that American, Delta and United will not file for bankruptcy protection (again), and shred all the nice contracts and reduce employee benefits? It was less than 20 years ago that all the legacy airlines had nice pension plans. How well do those plans look now?

The industry is in constant flux, it has been since at least deregulation. If you think you can do anything to change that pattern, you are a fool.

There are still hubs in MSP and CLE.

NEDude
02-08-2017, 06:58 AM
There are still hubs in MSP and CLE.

Mis-spoke. I meant Memphis with regards to Northwest.

United closed its CLE hub in 2014:

"United already closed its Cleveland hub in 2014..." https://www.fool.com/investing/2016/07/27/united-airlines-may-be-poised-drop-one-of-its-hubs.aspx

Mugatu
02-08-2017, 08:34 AM
Ireland is not leaving the EU. In fact they are even more committed to the EU in the wake of the Brexit. Ireland is actively promoting itself as the new English speaking gateway to the EU and trying to lure major companies away from the UK as a result of the Brexit.

NAI has been established and operating for several years now. Your statement that "NAI will have already been established..." makes it appear that you believe they are not an already established and operating airline.

I didn't say Ireland was leaving the EU. My statement was only about outcomes. But now I will add it's always a possibility. Nobody thought Britain would leave either. Cameron bet his political career that such an absurd idea Britain would leave he let his people vote a referendum just to shut up the Brexit people. Oops. There are quite a few people in Ireland who want to leave, too. I don't think it'll happen, but ya never know.

On this forum I think everyone knows NAI is already an established and operating airline. I would agree my point wasn't very clear, though. I should've said "NAI would have already been established on routes protected by the recently approved by DOT under the Open Skies agreement, along with all the associated branding, marketing, and passenger loyalty. If Brussels cracks down on Ireland tax laws, it would reduce some of NAI competitive advantage possibly slowing them down, but not like a Irexit would accomplish."

intrepidcv11
02-08-2017, 09:05 AM
Apparently you are forgetting the downturn in the financial crisis of 2008. And the downturn during the recession in the early 1990s that resulted in the loss of Pan Am, Eastern and the original Midway, along with the bankruptcies of Continental and America West. Or the downturn in the early 1980s that resulted in the loss of Braniff. Perhaps you are forgetting the 1980s mergers of Republic-Northwest, Piedmont-USAir, Continental-PeoplExpress and all the others that resulted in hiring disruptions. Perhaps you are forgetting the SARS scare of 2003.

Since deregulation and not including 9/11 the industry has averaged a major downturn approximately every ten years. But feel free to be foolish enough to think all of the downturns are done.

Sweet Hard Landing Updated Edition summation. Btw none of the three mergers in 80's you sited caused long term hiring to cease at the new combined company. That wasn't in Hard Landings though.

Fella show me where I said that downturns we're done? You on the other hand said the next industry 'hiccup' will result in 9/11 Legacy bankruptcies. During the last 'hiccup', legacy carriers consolidated and were often profitable in certain quarters. The only bankruptcy was American's which many argue was a sham and/or should have occurred in '03. I expect downturns, but arguing the next downturn will result in the savages that 9/11 brought is both alarmist and simplistic. If such an event did occur, I'd love to hear how Norweign Long Haul could stay in business longer then Delta.

NEDude
02-08-2017, 09:13 AM
Sweet Hard Landing with update summation. Btw none of the three mergers in 80's you sited caused long term hiring to cease at the new combined company. That wasn't in Hard Landings though.

Fella show me where I said that downturns we're done? You on the other hand said the next industry 'hiccup' will result in 9/11 Legacy bankruptcies. During the last 'hiccup', legacy carriers consolidated and were often profitable in certain quarters. The only bankruptcy was American's which many argue was a sham and/or should have occurred in '03. I expect downturns, but arguing the next downturn will result in the savages that 9/11 brought is both alarmist and simplistic.

Listen "Fella", you were the guy who made the 9/11 remark, not me. Perhaps you need to get some remedial reading lessons. I never made the connection between 9/11 and bankruptcies. Bankruptcies occurred during the downturn in the early 1980s, the early 1990s, after 9/11, and during the 2008 downturn and that was entirely my point, that they have occurred with alarming regularity since de-regulation and often resulted in the degradation of employee contracts.

Talk about being alarmist and simplistic...

intrepidcv11
02-08-2017, 09:15 AM
It is not that hard to figure out the schedules, you can ask any of the agencies if they have copies of them. Or ask someone who works there.

From what I have gathered almost all layovers are around 24-26 hours. LAX and BKK have the occasional 48 hour layovers, but those are rare. My neighbour averages 15 days off at home each month.

And if you think schedules cannot change for the worse quickly when the contract allows for it, I can't help ya. That's why having reasonable min day off is key protection.

intrepidcv11
02-08-2017, 09:19 AM
Listen "Fella", you were the guy who made the 9/11 remark, not me. Perhaps you need to get some remedial reading lessons. I never made the connection between 9/11 and bankruptcies. Bankruptcies occurred during the downturn in the early 1980s, the early 1990s, after 9/11, and during the 2008 downturn and that was entirely my point, that they have occurred with alarming regularity since de-regulation and often resulted in the degradation of employee contracts.

Talk about being alarmist and simplistic...

So you believe the modest recession of the Early 2000's alone was the reason US Legacies went bankrupt? Not the terrorist attack and resulting fall out aimed right at the airline industry. Got it.

NEDude
02-08-2017, 09:31 AM
So you believe the modest recession of the Early 2000's alone was the reason US Legacies went bankrupt? Not the terrorist attack and resulting fall out aimed right at the airline industry. Got it.

Learn to read. My point is that bankruptcies occur ANY TIME there is a downturn. You are focused on one downturn and under the apparent delusion that others do not occur. What caused the airline bankruptcies in the early 1980s? Was that related to 9/11?. What caused the bankruptcies in the early 1990s? Was that related to 9/11? What caused the bankruptcies of the late 2000s? Was that a result of 9/11?

So clearly you are of the belief that as long there is not another 9/11, there will never be any more bankruptcies. Got it.

In completely unrelated news, can I interest you in helping out a Nigerian prince? :rolleyes:

CousinEddie
02-08-2017, 10:21 AM
Learn to read. My point is that bankruptcies occur ANY TIME there is a downturn. You are focused on one downturn and under the apparent delusion that others do not occur. What caused the airline bankruptcies in the early 1980s? Was that related to 9/11?. What caused the bankruptcies in the early 1990s? Was that related to 9/11? What caused the bankruptcies of the late 2000s? Was that a result of 9/11?

So clearly you are of the belief that as long there is not another 9/11, there will never be any more bankruptcies. Got it.

In completely unrelated news, can I interest you in helping out a Nigerian prince? :rolleyes:

Goodness. Isn't there a good cup of tea over there somewhere? Have one.

We all get that the industry has a long history of modest booms and severe bust cycles. We know that has taken out many small and big players. The hope with consolidation in the US is that these bust cycles can be moderated to some extent. Will it be enough to prevent future bankruptcies? Maybe. Maybe not. Will it prevent furloughs and contract changes? Most likely not. The next severe down cycle, whatever the cause, will be the first test of a less fragmented industry than we had before. Our situation right now is to simply enjoy it while it lasts.

Now can you get me that Nigerian's contact info?

intrepidcv11
02-09-2017, 07:51 PM
Learn to read. My point is that bankruptcies occur ANY TIME there is a downturn. You are focused on one downturn and under the apparent delusion that others do not occur. What caused the airline bankruptcies in the early 1980s? Was that related to 9/11?. What caused the bankruptcies in the early 1990s? Was that related to 9/11? What caused the bankruptcies of the late 2000s? Was that a result of 9/11?

So clearly you are of the belief that as long there is not another 9/11, there will never be any more bankruptcies. Got it.

In completely unrelated news, can I interest you in helping out a Nigerian prince? :rolleyes:

So downturn always equals bankruptcy for US legacy/major despite massive consolidation and capacity discpline over the last 7 years the industry has never shown since deregulation. Got it. Berkshire Hathaway never invested in a US Airline after 1989 until last November. But you know better apparently. WOW



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