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View Full Version : Trump supports NAI


nfo99
02-08-2017, 07:28 AM
White House press secretary Sean Spicer on Tuesday suggested that the Trump administration looks favorably on the foreign air carrier permit that the Obama administration granted to Norwegian Air's Ireland-based subsidiary in December.
"There is a huge economic benefit that lies in that deal right now," Spicer said, referring to Norwegian's plan to purchase more than 100 Boeing aircraft and noting that Norwegian has committed to hiring U.S. workers."

Now that the reality is out, whats the latest from those who voted against self interest?

No Obama this. No Hiliary that. We have who we have. His administration has came out with his position on how great this will be to Make America Great Again.

This is intended to be an actual discussion on what DID happen. Not but if......


todhog2
02-08-2017, 07:43 AM
Self interest? I voted for an entire nation's self interest. Now it looks like ALPA needs to go in and educate him on what NIA really means to us.

Packrat
02-08-2017, 07:49 AM
Self interest? I voted for an entire nation's self interest. Now it looks like ALPA needs to go in and educate him on what NIA really means to us.

You haven't figured out that the "interest" of airline pilots doesn't mean squat to politicians? They're all about big corporate campaign donations. Does it surprise you that the FIRST order of business of the Trump administration was to register as a candidate for the 2020 election? That qualifies him to start taking campaign donations.

Besides, everyone in America "knows" we all make $300K a year and work 2 weeks a month. What are we complaining about?

:rolleyes:


prex8390
02-08-2017, 07:51 AM
It's gonna be a uphill battle with this. The average schmuck is gonna hear "oh they buy American and 50% us crews? I love the sound of the those numbers, god bless trump for bringing work back to America and supporting our pilots, those damn union boys are just getting their panties in a wad, im smart and know what's best for these guys". No one is gonna any further to its building 500 jobs and losing thousands potentially

iahflyr
02-08-2017, 07:52 AM
In basically any other industry, anyone can own a company that operates inside the United States. Why are airlines different?

I'm not saying we should change it, but what makes us different.

iahflyr
02-08-2017, 07:56 AM
Self interest? I voted for an entire nation's self interest. Now it looks like ALPA needs to go in and educate him on what NIA really means to us.

You're one of the many Trump voters who didn't know what they were voting for, and now you're getting a taste of your own medicine. No sympathy here.


Trump is big on trade. The number one contributing industry for reducing the trade deficit is Aerospace & Defense. The largest company inside that industry is Boeing. A few high paying pilot jobs at US owned carriers (that aren't going away, they're just being transferred to NAI at lower wages) are peanuts compared to the high paying engineering, manufacturing, and business jobs that Boeing generates when they sell those airplanes to NAI.

todhog2
02-08-2017, 07:57 AM
Yeah I figured that out a long time ago, that's why I've been paying union dues for 25 years. NIA was enacted by the party that was supposed to have my carreer's best interests in mind and I was supposed to vote for them agian? Nah, I'm happy with the one we got.

todhog2
02-08-2017, 08:02 AM
You're one of the many Trump voters who didn't know what they were voting for, and now you're getting a taste of your own medicine. No sympathy here.

I don't need any sympathy, I love everything I've heard until the NIA thing. You can't have it all with one candidate but it's better than nothing from the other.

SilverandSore
02-08-2017, 08:44 AM
You're one of the many Trump voters who didn't know what they were voting for, and now you're getting a taste of your own medicine. No sympathy here.


I think you're the one that needs the sympathy. Tell us again how this got approved and who was in charge when it happened?

jsled
02-08-2017, 08:50 AM
I think you're the one that needs the sympathy. Tell us again how this got approved and who was in charge when it happened?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EU%E2%80%93US_Open_Skies_Agreement

bay982
02-08-2017, 09:14 AM
I think you're the one that needs the sympathy. Tell us again how this got approved and who was in charge when it happened?

George Bush got it approved. Is that who you were talking about?

Just in case you thought Republican politicians were concerned about workers.

"The initial agreement was signed in Washington, D.C., on April 30, 2007. The agreement became effective March 30, 2008."

CousinEddie
02-08-2017, 10:09 AM
George Bush got it approved. Is that who you were talking about?

Just in case you thought Republican politicians were concerned about workers.

"The initial agreement was signed in Washington, D.C., on April 30, 2007. The agreement became effective March 30, 2008."

Article 17 bis was added to the agreement in 2010 in anticipation of flag of convenience type schemes. The lesson thus far is that labor provisions in open skies agreements are about as meaningful as no furlough clauses in union contracts. The global push is to lower standards as much as possible, and it doesn't matter who the politicians are.

NEDude
02-08-2017, 10:37 AM
Article 17 bis was added to the agreement in 2010 in anticipation of flag of convenience type schemes. The lesson thus far is that labor provisions in open skies agreements are about as meaningful as no furlough clauses in union contracts. The global push is to lower standards as much as possible, and it doesn't matter who the politicians are.

According to the chief U.S. negotiator, the chief E.U. negotiator, the U.S. DOT attorneys and the E.U. Article 17bis does not apply to NAI and does not constitute a legal basis for the denial of the operating permit. The people who wrote and enforce the agreement say it does not apply. Are you claiming that the people who wrote the agreement do not understand it?

LuckyNow
02-08-2017, 10:44 AM
Just out of plain curiosity NEDude, why are you such a proponent of NAI's strategy? I've read the other thread and seen your numerous posts defending them. I'm curious why you have such a strong stance towards their side of the argument?

CousinEddie
02-08-2017, 11:07 AM
According to the chief U.S. negotiator, the chief E.U. negotiator, the U.S. DOT attorneys and the E.U. Article 17bis does not apply to NAI and does not constitute a legal basis for the denial of the operating permit. The people who wrote and enforce the agreement say it does not apply. Are you claiming that the people who wrote the agreement do not understand it?

Not implying that at all. It's obvious now that the language was crafted from the day it was added so that holes could be punched in it as required. Just like a no-furlough clause. ALPA's mistake appears to have been assuming that the language had teeth, when it obviously didn't. Perhaps they should have known better.

Half wing
02-08-2017, 11:44 AM
Just out of plain curiosity NEDude, why are you such a proponent of NAI's strategy? I've read the other thread and seen your numerous posts defending them. I'm curious why you have such a strong stance towards their side of the argument?

He works for a European ULCC who will do feed for NAI. He will benefit from NAI's success so his credibility is nil. He seems to want pilots in the US to suffer and make less money for some reason.

PurpleToolBox
02-08-2017, 11:55 AM
In basically any other industry, anyone can own a company that operates inside the United States. Why are airlines different?

I'm not saying we should change it, but what makes us different.

Here's a good background paper on the question you asked. http://dailyairlinefilings.com/public/furlan.pdf

In short, to ensure aircraft availability, ensure a reserve corps of pilots in case of a national emergency or war, to establish federal oversight of safety of operations, pilots, and maintenance, and national security issues.

It also deals with the The Civil Air Reserve Fleet. Don't know what that is?

Civil Reserve Air Fleet > U.S. Air Force > Fact Sheet Display (http://www.af.mil/AboutUs/FactSheets/Display/tabid/224/Article/104583/civil-reserve-air-fleet.aspx)

bay982
02-08-2017, 12:08 PM
Just out of plain curiosity NEDude, why are you such a proponent of NAI's strategy? I've read the other thread and seen your numerous posts defending them. I'm curious why you have such a strong stance towards their side of the argument?

I'm not convinced NEDude is necessarily a proponent.

I would guess from his posts that he IS a proponent of the legal system, and critical thinking. Too many posters here oversimplify the discussion.

It's not as though the Obama administration whimsically decided to screw US airlines by approving NAI arbitrarily. The DOT in fact tried to slow-roll approval for more than TWO YEARS, probably knowing full well the whole time that they didn't have a legal leg to stand on to deny the application.

Several parties are to blame for NAI, but if you want to point fingers at the folks most responsible you'd best start with Republican congressmen in the early 2000's bowing to the free trade and 'reduce regulations' business lobby...

bay982
02-08-2017, 12:12 PM
He works for a European ULCC who will do feed for NAI. He will benefit from NAI's success so his credibility is nil. He seems to want pilots in the US to suffer and make less money for some reason.

So you're saying that it's impossible to be objective when you have an interest in something?

I know quite a few people who are able to have a critical discussion and evaluate facts that aren't what they wished.

PurpleToolBox
02-08-2017, 12:20 PM
Allow me to be devil's advocate ...

If NAI is agreeing to use 50% American pilots and to buy Boeing airplanes, what is the problem?

PurpleToolBox
02-08-2017, 12:23 PM
According to the chief U.S. negotiator, the chief E.U. negotiator, the U.S. DOT attorneys and the E.U. Article 17bis does not apply to NAI and does not constitute a legal basis for the denial of the operating permit. The people who wrote and enforce the agreement say it does not apply. Are you claiming that the people who wrote the agreement do not understand it?

Question for the discussion:

Can the airlines sue? Do they have standing? What about the employee groups? Unions?

Anyone smart enough to comment on that?

mainlineAF
02-08-2017, 01:38 PM
Allow me to be devil's advocate ...

If NAI is agreeing to use 50% American pilots and to buy Boeing airplanes, what is the problem?



Don't assume this scheme won't be a threat to cargo airlines as well.

bay982
02-08-2017, 01:44 PM
Question for the discussion:

Can the airlines sue? Do they have standing? What about the employee groups? Unions?

Anyone smart enough to comment on that?

****Caveat****

I'm an airline pilot, not a lawyer, so my opinion on this is worth about what you payed for it...

It's hard to imagine that unions or employees have standing in an international agreement. It seems like the governments would represent their citizens, so exiting an agreement would require elected representatives to opt out.

Here is what looks to be a very good source for the actual text of the agreements.

https://gsa.gov/portal/content/103191

NEDude
02-08-2017, 02:09 PM
Just out of plain curiosity NEDude, why are you such a proponent of NAI's strategy? I've read the other thread and seen your numerous posts defending them. I'm curious why you have such a strong stance towards their side of the argument?

If you have read my many posts, you will know why because I have mentioned it many times.

The growth of Norwegian has created upward pressure on pilot salaries here in Europe (where I live and work). I have seen the pay at my current employer increase in part because of pilots leaving to go to Norwegian. I have seen the schedules at the airline my wife works for get significantly better in order to help retain pilots who have been looking at Norwegian. So in short, I am a believer that the more pilot jobs there are the better it is for all of us. I have yet to see a situation where less pilot jobs makes things better.

NEDude
02-08-2017, 02:14 PM
He works for a European ULCC who will do feed for NAI. He will benefit from NAI's success so his credibility is nil. He seems to want pilots in the US to suffer and make less money for some reason.

Incorrect, but nice try. I do not work for any company that has any association with Norwegian or its subsidiaries. Guess again. You were close though, I do work for a European airline.

kevbo
02-08-2017, 02:25 PM
Besides, everyone in America "knows" we all make $300K a year and work 2 weeks a month. What are we complaining about?

:rolleyes:[/QUOTE]
That is a slippery slope on many levels. Common folks would not mind so much if everyone payed their way. They know that most guys in that position had opportunity handed to them.

Name User
02-08-2017, 02:35 PM
I'm fine with NAI as long as we can reel in the ME carriers. The legacys can adapt as long as we are on a level playing field. Actually I would say US carriers are probably the best, most nimble carriers in the world. They have been fighting tooth and nail for a very long time under intense domestic competition. If cabotage was allowed IMO we would wipe the floor with the European carriers like FedEx is doing right now.

David Puddy
02-08-2017, 03:02 PM
I'm fine with NAI as long as we can reel in the ME carriers. The legacys can adapt as long as we are on a level playing field. Actually I would say US carriers are probably the best, most nimble carriers in the world. They have been fighting tooth and nail for a very long time under intense domestic competition. If cabotage was allowed IMO we would wipe the floor with the European carriers like FedEx is doing right now.

I completely agree with this statement. The U.S. legacies can adapt and should order airplanes like the A321LR and 737-8MAX to counter this competitive threat. NAI won't have feed in the U.S. but they will likely have feed in Europe via Ryanair.

Burton78
02-08-2017, 03:14 PM
Incorrect, but nice try. I do not work for any company that has any association with Norwegian or its subsidiaries. Guess again. You were close though, I do work for a European airline.



Ok, why keep it such a secret? Please elaborate on why you seem to spend what appears to be the effort of a full time gig posting on a United States centric pilot forum cheerleading the demise of the lifelong, hard sought after American pilot jobs if you have no skin in the game. Do you want to work for NAI? Are you even a pilot? If so, who do you work for and why do you spend so much time day in and day out defending the likes of NAI which only serves to degrade the pilot profession globally? What say you about SAS mimicking NAI's idea in Ireland and please explain why they would want to pick that particular country to start an ULCC? Please properly introduce yourself and explain why this is so important to you along with your angle and perhaps people can better understand why you feel the way you do. I'm positive just about anyone here would gladly tell you who they work for and why the feel the way they do. If you can't do the same, you have zero credibility.

I'm sure the Lorenzo's and Kjos' of the world applaud your tireless efforts.

PurpleToolBox
02-08-2017, 04:14 PM
Don't assume this scheme won't be a threat to cargo airlines as well.

Don't assume because I'm a cargo pilot I'm not worried about the NAI situation.

Thanks.

mainlineAF
02-08-2017, 04:34 PM
Don't assume because I'm a cargo pilot I'm not worried about the NAI situation.

Thanks.



Well from the tone of your other post it seemed otherwise. We're all in this together.

mainlineAF
02-08-2017, 04:50 PM
Ok, why keep it such a secret? Please elaborate on why you seem to spend what appears to be the effort of a full time gig posting on a United States centric pilot forum cheerleading the demise of the lifelong, hard sought after American pilot jobs if you have no skin in the game. Do you want to work for NAI? Are you even a pilot? If so, who do you work for and why do you spend so much time day in and day out defending the likes of NAI which only serves to degrade the pilot profession globally? What say you about SAS mimicking NAI's idea in Ireland and please explain why they would want to pick that particular country to start an ULCC? Please properly introduce yourself and explain why this is so important to you along with your angle and perhaps people can better understand why you feel the way you do. I'm positive just about anyone here would gladly tell you who they work for and why the feel the way they do. If you can't do the same, you have zero credibility.

I'm sure the Lorenzo's and Kjos' of the world applaud your tireless efforts.



I don't agree with your statement that NEDude is an NAI cheerleader. He seems to me to be pretty level-headed about it. His arguments may be different than yours but they are well thought out. I appreciate his insight from the European side of the equation.

Burton78
02-08-2017, 05:02 PM
I don't agree with your statement that NEDude is an NAI cheerleader. He seems to me to be pretty level-headed about it. His arguments may be different than yours but they are well thought out. I appreciate his insight from the European side of the equation.



I agree his points are fairly level headed but, I don't see anyone more invested in speaking in behalf of NAI than him. Maybe one day he can enlighten us all on who he works for and demonstrate how it caused upward pressure on his pilot wages. I'd just like to hear his full story and why he talks about little other than NAI.

Csy Mon
02-08-2017, 05:04 PM
Well, everybody thought Trump would pull the permit, guess not.
His buddies at Boeing said no, don't do it.
Republicans in general have not been good to pilots, they did not lift a finger when Pan-Am when down the drain, and all those conservative pilots had been voting GOP for years, sorry dudes. :(
Obama stalled the approval for 2 years, but finally had to approve it.
Done deal for good, especially now with Trump's blessings.
Not sure NAI will take over the world, they have a market, like JetBlue and Southwest, but NAI swore up and down they would not use Asian c-scale crews for the US flights.
With a growing pilot shortage NAI will have to rise the pay to get competent crews and to compete with US Majors, Emirates and similar "direct entry" jobs.
In good times a rising tide will float all boats.
Just to be clear, I am not a fan of outsourcing and not a fan of out-flagging, but it seems to be the future. Pretty much like the automotive and other global industries. (Lots of BMWs are made in the US, probably not with the German autoworkera dancing the happy-dance)
Cheap labor rules, as long as NAI are not breaking any laws, and the employees not crossing any picket lines, we might as well get used to it.
Thanks for nothing Donald Trump.

Judge Smails
02-08-2017, 05:12 PM
Any of you die hard Trump lovers having buyers remorse yet? How thick-as-a-brick pilots continue to support and vote for a party that is anti-labor and anti-union is truly mind blowing to me.

Karnak
02-08-2017, 05:47 PM
Besides, everyone in America "knows" we all make $300K a year and work 2 weeks a month. What are we complaining about?

Please delete this!

I don't want my neighbors to think I only make $300K and have to work 2 weeks!

Bozo the pilot
02-08-2017, 06:24 PM
Any of you die hard Trump lovers having buyers remorse yet? How thick-as-a-brick pilots continue to support and vote for a party that is anti-labor and anti-union is truly mind blowing to me.

Obama approved it. Did you have buyers remorse towards the end? Fyi, Im not a trumper- both sides have gotten labor wrong for years. To blame one side shows great ignorance Smails.

Judge Smails
02-08-2017, 07:00 PM
Obama approved it. Did you have buyers remorse towards the end? Fyi, Im not a trumper- both sides have gotten labor wrong for years. To blame one side shows great ignorance Smails.

Obama couldn't stop it. The administration admitted there was nothing they could do to stop it. Trump didn't try. Not only that, his administration actually likes it. There's the difference.

My point is Trump supporters are naively championing him as a jobs Messiah. Republicans have been and always will be the party of big business.

Bozo the pilot
02-08-2017, 07:13 PM
Obama couldn't stop it. The administration admitted there was nothing they could do to stop it. Trump didn't try. Not only that, his administration actually likes it. There's the difference.

My point is Trump supporters are naively championing him as a jobs Messiah. Republicans have been and always will be the party of big business.

No president has been deified more than Obama. Im sure you still have his pic on your wall:rolleyes:

Judge Smails
02-08-2017, 07:15 PM
No president has been deified more than Obama. Im sure you still have his pic on your wall:rolleyes:

Deified almost as much as Saint Reagan. 🙄

Bozo the pilot
02-08-2017, 07:22 PM
Deified almost as much as Saint Reagan. 🙄
Reagan is dead- you libs worship a living Socialist;)

TonyC
02-08-2017, 07:22 PM
White House press secretary Sean Spicer on Tuesday suggested that the Trump administration looks favorably on the foreign air carrier permit that the Obama administration granted to Norwegian Air's Ireland-based subsidiary in December.
"There is a huge economic benefit that lies in that deal right now," Spicer said, referring to Norwegian's plan to purchase more than 100 Boeing aircraft and noting that Norwegian has committed to hiring U.S. workers."

Now that the reality is out, whats the latest from those who voted against self interest?

No Obama this. No Hiliary that. We have who we have. His administration has came out with his position on how great this will be to Make America Great Again.

This is intended to be an actual discussion on what DID happen. Not but if......


If you want a discussion about what DID happen, why begin with a false or misleading thread title?

If Trump or Spicer has declared, as you have, that Trump supports NAI, I haven't read it, seen it, or heard about it.

What Spicer DID say, when asked about NAI, was "I donít want to get ahead of the president on that, ..."


https://redirect.viglink.com/?format=go&jsonp=vglnk_148661031833015&key=9b6f296ed5808a533a8c200e2b2032c0&libId=iyxtbtm40100a0tt000DAnznpjydoau59&loc=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.airlinepilotforums.com%2Fdel ta%2F99866-white-house-brefing-question-nai-me3.html&v=1&out=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DXI aoJ8137t4%26feature%3Dyoutu.be%26t%3D1h12m52s&title=White%20House%20Brefing%20question%20on%20NA I%20and%20ME3%20-%20Airline%20Pilot%20Central%20Forums&txt=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DXI ao....be%26amp%3Bt%3D1h12m52s


I don't think you can divine from that exchange that Trump supports NAI.

His administration has NOT came out ... your words ... with his position in NAI.

So, back to reality.







.

Judge Smails
02-08-2017, 07:23 PM
Reagan is dead- you libs worship a living Socialist;)

Don't ASSume my political beliefs. Your handle is fitting right now.

Bozo the pilot
02-08-2017, 07:24 PM
Don't ASSume my political beliefs. Your handle is fitting right now.

You too Smails:D

PurpleToolBox
02-08-2017, 07:27 PM
Obama couldn't stop it. The administration admitted there was nothing they could do to stop it. Trump didn't try. Not only that, his administration actually likes it. There's the difference.

My point is Trump supporters are naively championing him as a jobs Messiah. Republicans have been and always will be the party of big business.

First of all, do we even know what Trump believes on this issue? ALPA called Trump's Administration today to help put America first. The sky has not fallen yet.

Second, Trump has been very good for jobs so far. Did Obama ever DO anything like Trump has done? No. He only SAID things. For example, Obama said things like, "We must work harder to ensure our middle class has better jobs and better wages." Nice talk. But he DID NOTHING. Trump is calling out companies who are trying to leave. Trump is calling on businesses to come to America. So far it seems to be working.

Fact: Obama is the first President to never have a year GDP growth of 3% or more. Let's wait and see how Trump's Administration plays out before you start throwing stones in glass houses.

Trump is pro-America and pro-jobs. While Trump's Press Secretary (Sean Spicer) said yesterday he thought there might be a deal (NAI agrees to hire 50% American pilots ... they must buy Boeing aircraft), we'll have to wait and see what happens. We don't know yet. ALPA engaged them today. Let's hope it worked.

Nevjets
02-08-2017, 08:38 PM
UALPA says that they don't even have to hire 50% American pilots. They say that as long as the pilots are hired under EU or American pilot contracts and put that in writing, that would suffice. So if this NAI scheme isn't a big deal, why won't they do that and put in writing?
http://video.foxnews.com/v/5308282704001/?#sp=show-clips

NEDude
02-08-2017, 11:01 PM
Ok, why keep it such a secret? Please elaborate on why you seem to spend what appears to be the effort of a full time gig posting on a United States centric pilot forum cheerleading the demise of the lifelong, hard sought after American pilot jobs if you have no skin in the game. Do you want to work for NAI? Are you even a pilot? If so, who do you work for and why do you spend so much time day in and day out defending the likes of NAI which only serves to degrade the pilot profession globally? What say you about SAS mimicking NAI's idea in Ireland and please explain why they would want to pick that particular country to start an ULCC? Please properly introduce yourself and explain why this is so important to you along with your angle and perhaps people can better understand why you feel the way you do. I'm positive just about anyone here would gladly tell you who they work for and why the feel the way they do. If you can't do the same, you have zero credibility.

I'm sure the Lorenzo's and Kjos' of the world applaud your tireless efforts.

I have explained why I am in support of NAI several times, including yesterday. Do a search and you will find it. I am not going to type it again.

Please tell me who you work for and then I will do the same.

NEDude
02-08-2017, 11:45 PM
I agree his points are fairly level headed but, I don't see anyone more invested in speaking in behalf of NAI than him. Maybe one day he can enlighten us all on who he works for and demonstrate how it caused upward pressure on his pilot wages. I'd just like to hear his full story and why he talks about little other than NAI.

If you publicly post who you work for, then I will do the same.

As for enlightening you about how it put upward pressure on wages I have stated it many times. But here it goes again:

Over the past five years Norwegian (all of Norwegian - NAS, NAI, NAN and NUK) has grown significantly at the same time as more European airlines have begun to hire. Many of the smaller airlines and other LCCs have begun to lose pilots to the Norwegian group. As a result many of them have had to improve the salaries and working conditions in order to attract and retain pilots. My wife's airline (she works in crew planning) recently raised wages approximately 8% across the board and instituted a fixed roster pattern in an effort to retain pilots who have been leaving for Norwegian. Over the past year I have worked two contract jobs in Europe and have seen the terms and conditions increase. For my most recent contract I was asked in the interview if I had interest in returning to China or if I had looked at the Norwegian long haul operation (I am an Airbus guy but Norwegian has been known to occasionally accept Airbus time for the 787 operation). They have had pilots leave for both, had just increased their contract offering, and wanted to know if that was something I was considering.

The European market is very different than the U.S. market, the legacy airlines tend to be very protective of their nationalities and often practice blatant age discrimination - Lufthansa and Austrian have very strict age requirements. If you are a 45 year old experienced pilot from Ireland, you have ZERO chance of getting a job with most legacy airlines in Europe and your options at home are limited to Ryanair, an occasional cadet opening with Aer Lingus, and ....Norwegian. If you are a 45 year old experienced pilot from Ohio, you have a very good shot at American, Delta or United. It is just a very different environment over here and clearly, from many of the statements made on here, many of you fail to comprehend that. The options for a 45 year old experienced pilot in Europe are just not the same as they are in the States. And when compared to what is available for an experienced pilot in their 40s or 50s, Norwegian is actually a pretty decent option overall. It is certainly a lot better than Germania, or Small Planet, or Primera, HiFly, Avion Express, Jet Time, WizzAir or any of the other ACMI or ULCCs out there. And without question it is far better than the Lufthansa alter-ego Eurowings.

JamesNoBrakes
02-08-2017, 11:49 PM
White House press secretary Sean Spicer on Tuesday suggested that the Trump administration looks favorably on the foreign air carrier permit that the Obama administration granted to Norwegian Air's Ireland-based subsidiary in December.
"There is a huge economic benefit that lies in that deal right now," Spicer said, referring to Norwegian's plan to purchase more than 100 Boeing aircraft and noting that Norwegian has committed to hiring U.S. workers."

Now that the reality is out, whats the latest from those who voted against self interest?

No Obama this. No Hiliary that. We have who we have. His administration has came out with his position on how great this will be to Make America Great Again.

This is intended to be an actual discussion on what DID happen. Not but if......

It really shows you the crux of the issue. The US economy is much bigger than just the US, companies are global and sell stuff all over the place. Protectionist policies will hurt many of those companies, so the protectionist propaganda wast just to get everyone's emotions in a whirl and secure the vote. Now that the party has won, it will serve the interests of the highest bidder.

NEDude
02-08-2017, 11:51 PM
UALPA says that they don't even have to hire 50% American pilots. They say that as long as the pilots are hired under EU or American pilot contracts and put that in writing, that would suffice. So if this NAI scheme isn't a big deal, why won't they do that and put in writing?
American flight industry jobs in trouble?| Latest News Videos | Fox News (http://video.foxnews.com/v/5308282704001/?#sp=show-clips)

All of their pilots are hired under UK or Norwegian pilot contracts. Even the American pilots would be hired under OSM, which is a Norwegian agency. And in Europe, you are covered by the labour law of the country where you are based. So Barcelona based pilots for Norwegian are covered by both Spanish and Norwegian/UK labour law, depending which agency they are contracted through. Amsterdam based pilots are covered under Dutch labour law in addition to their contract. Paris based pilots are covered under French labour laws. All of this is in writing, it is in the pilot contracts and it is written into the labour laws of all the countries involved. In addition EASA regulations mean you are also covered under the laws of the country where the aircraft you are operating is registered. All of this has been reported in multiple sources, do a Google search and you will find it.

Burton78
02-09-2017, 05:44 AM
If you publicly post who you work for, then I will do the same.



As for enlightening you about how it put upward pressure on wages I have stated it many times. But here it goes again:



Over the past five years Norwegian (all of Norwegian - NAS, NAI, NAN and NUK) has grown significantly at the same time as more European airlines have begun to hire. Many of the smaller airlines and other LCCs have begun to lose pilots to the Norwegian group. As a result many of them have had to improve the salaries and working conditions in order to attract and retain pilots. My wife's airline (she works in crew planning) recently raised wages approximately 8% across the board and instituted a fixed roster pattern in an effort to retain pilots who have been leaving for Norwegian. Over the past year I have worked two contract jobs in Europe and have seen the terms and conditions increase. For my most recent contract I was asked in the interview if I had interest in returning to China or if I had looked at the Norwegian long haul operation (I am an Airbus guy but Norwegian has been known to occasionally accept Airbus time for the 787 operation). They have had pilots leave for both, had just increased their contract offering, and wanted to know if that was something I was considering.



The European market is very different than the U.S. market, the legacy airlines tend to be very protective of their nationalities and often practice blatant age discrimination - Lufthansa and Austrian have very strict age requirements. If you are a 45 year old experienced pilot from Ireland, you have ZERO chance of getting a job with most legacy airlines in Europe and your options at home are limited to Ryanair, an occasional cadet opening with Aer Lingus, and ....Norwegian. If you are a 45 year old experienced pilot from Ohio, you have a very good shot at American, Delta or United. It is just a very different environment over here and clearly, from many of the statements made on here, many of you fail to comprehend that. The options for a 45 year old experienced pilot in Europe are just not the same as they are in the States. And when compared to what is available for an experienced pilot in their 40s or 50s, Norwegian is actually a pretty decent option overall. It is certainly a lot better than Germania, or Small Planet, or Primera, HiFly, Avion Express, Jet Time, WizzAir or any of the other ACMI or ULCCs out there. And without question it is far better than the Lufthansa alter-ego Eurowings.



SWA. Your turn. Ok, thanks for the explanation. I understand where you're coming from in regard to your limited options of carriers to work for as a middle aged pilot in Europe and I'm sorry to hear that. You presented a laundry list of carriers that are undesirable places to work for in Europe all the while mentioning that we have great options to chose from here in the states. I think what you are failing to comprehend is that most pilots in the states DON'T want to follow in Europe's footsteps in creating such a landscape where Norwegian "looks pretty decent" because quite frankly, from our perspective, it doesn't at all. Many view NAI as the proverbial camel's nose in that regard. If you take a gander at the the airline profile sections on this site of the biggest carriers here (that are all massively hiring btw), you can clearly see that we don't need NAI to help bring upward pressure on pilot wages.

I may have missed your response, but why is SAS planning to launch an airline in Ireland?

NEDude
02-09-2017, 07:35 AM
SWA. Your turn. Ok, thanks for the explanation. I understand where you're coming from in regard to your limited options of carriers to work for as a middle aged pilot in Europe and I'm sorry to hear that. You presented a laundry list of carriers that are undesirable places to work for in Europe all the while mentioning that we have great options to chose from here in the states. I think what you are failing to comprehend is that most pilots in the states DON'T want to follow in Europe's footsteps in creating such a landscape where Norwegian "looks pretty decent" because quite frankly, from our perspective, it doesn't at all. Many view NAI as the proverbial camel's nose in that regard. If you take a gander at the the airline profile sections on this site of the biggest carriers here (that are all massively hiring btw), you can clearly see that we don't need NAI to help bring upward pressure on pilot wages.

I may have missed your response, but why is SAS planning to launch an airline in Ireland?

Fair enough - I work for WOW Air.

My other issue with the campaign against NAI is a lot of the information spread is wrong, and most of the legal opinions by those who are in a position to know agree that there is no legal basis by which to deny NAI. If NAI is denied, what happens next? Does the DOT then go after my company because of the use of contract pilots? Do they go after any airline that uses contract pilots? Do they then go after any European airline that has multiple AOCs in several countries? Does the EU retaliate if the DOT violates the Open Skies agreement if they ignore the ruling of an arbitrator? This can also be a slippery slope the other way. I get not liking the idea of NAI, but the legal opinions have been made and decision was made by the DOT. To keep the fight going, in hopes of revoking an already approved permit, with false claims of Asian pilots contracted through Singapore (doesn't happen), and ignorance of labour law of the various nations of the EU/EEA, seems like it can lead to very dangerous precedents that could also be harmful.

As for SAS, I am not totally sure. But Ireland is well known provide very favourable tax advantages, such as favourable breaks on aircraft depreciation. It also has much simpler rules when it comes to accounting. On the labour point, Ireland does require lower social security contributions than many other EU countries, so that is another advantage too. But I have not done any research on the proposed SAS operation.

Qotsaautopilot
02-09-2017, 08:27 AM
If the European pilot environment is as described where NAI looks good why are people still signing up for the job? In general Europe is more expensive to live than the US and with pay that low the buying power is even lower. Why in the world are people becoming pilots. I gotta say I wouldn't be doing it if those were the options. I mean is the whole industry just full of naive kids trying to live a dream? At some point they must realize when they have a family that the pay and qol just doesn't add up, right?

Nevjets
02-09-2017, 08:55 AM
All of their pilots are hired under UK or Norwegian pilot contracts. Even the American pilots would be hired under OSM, which is a Norwegian agency. And in Europe, you are covered by the labour law of the country where you are based. So Barcelona based pilots for Norwegian are covered by both Spanish and Norwegian/UK labour law, depending which agency they are contracted through. Amsterdam based pilots are covered under Dutch labour law in addition to their contract. Paris based pilots are covered under French labour laws. All of this is in writing, it is in the pilot contracts and it is written into the labour laws of all the countries involved. In addition EASA regulations mean you are also covered under the laws of the country where the aircraft you are operating is registered. All of this has been reported in multiple sources, do a Google search and you will find it.



Then why create these subsidiaries? What is it then that Norwegian is trying to do with these subsidiaries if they can do all these things with the original Norwegian Airlines?

Bluesideup1
02-09-2017, 10:16 AM
Obama couldn't stop it. The administration admitted there was nothing they could do to stop it. Trump didn't try. Not only that, his administration actually likes it. There's the difference.

My point is Trump supporters are naively championing him as a jobs Messiah. Republicans have been and always will be the party of big business.

All he had to do is not sign it. How is it he couldn't stop it? He also said nothing that would indicate that he didn't like it.

The only naivety I see is the rose colored alt universe that you see when we talk about what the Democrat president did to us.

DeadStick
02-09-2017, 10:18 AM
Don't worry gents, you can be sure that Mr. Trump has the utmost respect for airline pilots; in fact his older brother Freddy flew for TWA.

Freddy disgraced himself by leaving the family real estate business to pursue his aviation dream. He died in his 40's from alcoholism, his heirs cut out of the family fortune.

"What Donald told me at the time was that he and his father had perhaps been way too hard on him. They used to say to him, because he was an airline pilot, 'Whatís the difference between what you do, Freddy, and driving a bus?'" -Marie Brenner, Vanity Fair, from PBS Frontline

Judge Smails
02-09-2017, 10:32 AM
All he had to do is not sign it. How is it he couldn't stop it? He also said nothing that would indicate that he didn't like it.

The only naivety I see is the rose colored alt universe that you see when we talk about what the Democrat president did to us.

Alt universe? Is that similar to an alt fact?

The DOT made the decision it was legal, you don't think that tied Obama's hands? Leaders can't pick and choose which parts of the Open Skies agreement they want to follow, otherwise the whole thing could go out the window.

I'm not saying I agree with NAI, I think it's shady as hell, but don't blame Obama, blame the ambiguous language and loopholes of Open Skies, which BTW was approved originally by a Republican administration.

NotMrNiceGuy
02-09-2017, 11:39 AM
Norwegian Air International coming to US creates problems for Trump - Business Insider (http://www.businessinsider.com/norwegian-air-international-america-trump-2017-2)

APC225
02-09-2017, 11:51 AM
If the choice is between 100,000 jobs that each pay $200,000 or 200,000 jobs that each pay $100,000, which will sell better politically? Which will fulfill the promise to create more jobs? Which will voters be more sympathetic to when the average annual salary is nearer to $50,000.

If foreign airlines say they will hire 50% U.S. workers, increasing the total number of jobs, regardless of pay, seems this administration will be all for it. Heck, Spicer in today's press briefing is already taking credit for the low unemployment rate, after just 3 weeks in office. "We are putting Americans back to work."

This is going to a quick decision and it's likely we are currently under the best contracts we will ever see. Next round of contracts, "pattern bargaining" will include U.S. pilots working at reduced scales with foreign airlines. When the door gets opened for them there is no bottom the airlines won't push for. Look to the '80s and the '00s for that.

Nevjets
02-09-2017, 12:22 PM
If the choice is between 100,000 jobs that each pay $200,000 or 200,000 jobs that each pay $100,000, which will sell better politically? Which will fulfill the promise to create more jobs? Which will voters be more sympathetic to when the average annual salary is nearer to $50,000.



If foreign airlines say they will hire 50% U.S. workers, increasing the total number of jobs, regardless of pay, seems this administration will be all for it. Heck, Spicer in today's press briefing is already taking credit for the low unemployment rate, after just 3 weeks in office. "We are putting Americans back to work."



This is going to a quick decision and it's likely we are currently under the best contracts we will ever see. Next round of contracts, "pattern bargaining" will include U.S. pilots working at reduced scales with foreign airlines. When the door gets opened for them there is no bottom the airlines won't push for. Look to the '80s and the '00s for that.



How many jobs does Boeing create versus all the US airlines? How many jobs does US airlines lose every time they have to pull out of a European market? And how many less Boeings will the US airlines need because of the market erosion? How many jobs does Boeing outsource versus the US airlines? How did the state of Washington electoral vote go?

mainlineAF
02-09-2017, 12:58 PM
Yea trump won't do anything about this. If he says anything about it its going to be they're buying Boeing and hiring US crews. That's it.

APC225
02-09-2017, 02:16 PM
How many jobs does Boeing create versus all the US airlines? How many jobs does US airlines lose every time they have to pull out of a European market? And how many less Boeings will the US airlines need because of the market erosion? How many jobs does Boeing outsource versus the US airlines? How did the state of Washington electoral vote go?I agree American labor is going to lose. Without the collective bargaining of unions it simply cannot succeed no matter who is in office or what they promised and with Right to Work on a fast track those days are gone.

Packrat
02-10-2017, 05:02 AM
I'm not convinced NEDude is necessarily a proponent.

I would guess from his posts that he IS a proponent of the legal system, and critical thinking. Too many posters here oversimplify the discussion. .

No, it's the APC tendency toward groupthink. Anyone or anything said contrary is immediately excoriated.

Packrat
02-10-2017, 05:06 AM
Any of you die hard Trump lovers having buyers remorse yet? How thick-as-a-brick pilots continue to support and vote for a party that is anti-labor and anti-union is truly mind blowing to me.

Give it up.

Trying to change their minds is like trying to teach a cat to whistle...it's a waste of your time and it irritates the cat.

Packrat
02-10-2017, 05:10 AM
My point is Trump supporters are naively championing him as a jobs Messiah. Republicans have been and always will be the party of big business.

They weren't in Eisenhower's day. Then one of them read Ayn Rand's B.S.

hoover
02-10-2017, 05:56 AM
Everyone keeps saying they'll hire 50% US crews. They said that 50% of the crews will be US based. There's a big difference.
Contract Terms
Basic Salary (Monthly)
USD8,500
Allowance incl. per diems (Monthly)
USD1,000
Roster
Minimum 10 days off per month, no fixed pattern. In the long term and subject to the number of crew, Norwegian is aiming for a more fixed pattern with block of off days.
Vacation
Crew members will be entitled to 28 daysí vacation per year including US Public holidays.
Sick Leave
Maximum 30 paid sick leave days per year.
Accommodation
At layover stations the accommodation is provided by Norwegian.
Ground Transportation
Provided by Norwegian at layover stations.
Travel Benefits
ID travel benefits are provided to pilots and their qualifying family members on Norwegian services according to their policies.
Insurance
Both Medical and Personal Accident and Illness insurance are provided.
Phone Allowance (Monthly)
USD100
BDO (Bought Day Off) - Daily; Additional pay when working on an off day
USD850.

Congrats for the Cpts. Who only have 10 days off a month and not in a row or any kind of pattern who only make $8500/ month. 2nd yr FO at any major makes more and has way more time off. I hope they can't find any pilots. The supplementals here are having a hard time and they pay better than that.

Tiggerpilot
02-10-2017, 06:16 AM
I hate to say it fellas, however ALPA did none of us a favor by being so passive on the issue. SWAPA and NJASAP asked ALPA get the word out with an event the first week of Trump's presidency. Their reply paraphrased was "we don't want Mr Trump to think we don't like him".
Ridiculous.

In contract negotiations and politics, a lot of attention can be garnered through these highly visible events. At a time when all aviation unions should have come together, the largest one decided to sit it out and work "behind the scenes".

Guess that didn't work out to well.

JamesNoBrakes
02-10-2017, 07:31 AM
How many jobs does Boeing create versus all the US airlines? How many jobs does US airlines lose every time they have to pull out of a European market? And how many less Boeings will the US airlines need because of the market erosion? How many jobs does Boeing outsource versus the US airlines? How did the state of Washington electoral vote go?

Boeing is absolutely huge. Number of employees may not be the best comparison with all the trickle down/other effects of Boeing. Military, civilian, design, production, support, etc. They know how to play this system by having plants and production in nearly every state, making every senator an advocate for their jobs.

full of luv
02-10-2017, 08:08 AM
Accommodation
At layover stations the accommodation is provided by Norwegian.
Ground Transportation
Provided by Norwegian at layover stations.


Wow, that's so benevolent.... NAI is going to pickup the hotel and transpo during layovers.

The scary thing about that ad is that they even listed it as a benefit... as in there are contracts out there where the pilot is responsible for layover hotel and transpo.:eek:

GogglesPisano
02-10-2017, 08:13 AM
Wow, that's so benevolent.... NAI is going to pickup the hotel and transpo during layovers.

The scary thing about that ad is that they even listed it as a benefit... as in there are contracts out there where the pilot is responsible for layover hotel and transpo.:eek:

They may even let you drink the water from the airplane, which is a step up from Ryanair. Face it, there are guys out there who will jump at the opportunity to fly a 787 for RJ wages.

hindsight2020
02-10-2017, 09:09 AM
They may even let you drink the water from the airplane, which is a step up from Ryanair. Face it, there are guys out there who will jump at the opportunity to fly a 787 for RJ wages.

IF at the very core that assertion is statistically true, then y'all are screwed, period dot. No way you can collective bargain against that. That is the very definition of a pilot SURPLUS.

JamesNoBrakes
02-10-2017, 01:17 PM
IF at the very core that assertion is statistically true, then y'all are screwed, period dot. No way you can collective bargain against that. That is the very definition of a pilot SURPLUS.

Naw, just an airline shortage.

Nevjets
02-10-2017, 05:51 PM
Boeing is absolutely huge. Number of employees may not be the best comparison with all the trickle down/other effects of Boeing. Military, civilian, design, production, support, etc. They know how to play this system by having plants and production in nearly every state, making every senator an advocate for their jobs.



How huge? The US airlines employ 10 million people. And that doesn't include the trickle down/other effects of airlines (which includes aircraft manufacturers) and have major hubs in dozens of states. And how huge is Boeings outsourcing? Trump loves that! Either NAI gets the Boeings or the US airlines get them. Who should trump choose?

Nevjets
02-10-2017, 06:49 PM
I meant to say 1 million jobs.

beancounter
02-10-2017, 08:25 PM
Everyone keeps saying they'll hire 50% US crews. They said that 50% of the crews will be US based. There's a big difference.
Contract Terms
Basic Salary (Monthly)
USD8,500
Allowance incl. per diems (Monthly)
USD1,000
Roster
Minimum 10 days off per month, no fixed pattern. In the long term and subject to the number of crew, Norwegian is aiming for a more fixed pattern with block of off days.
Vacation
Crew members will be entitled to 28 daysí vacation per year including US Public holidays.
Sick Leave
Maximum 30 paid sick leave days per year.
Accommodation
At layover stations the accommodation is provided by Norwegian.
Ground Transportation
Provided by Norwegian at layover stations.
Travel Benefits
ID travel benefits are provided to pilots and their qualifying family members on Norwegian services according to their policies.
Insurance
Both Medical and Personal Accident and Illness insurance are provided.
Phone Allowance (Monthly)
USD100
BDO (Bought Day Off) - Daily; Additional pay when working on an off day
USD850.

Congrats for the Cpts. Who only have 10 days off a month and not in a row or any kind of pattern who only make $8500/ month. 2nd yr FO at any major makes more and has way more time off. I hope they can't find any pilots. The supplementals here are having a hard time and they pay better than that.

I just don't see how they're going to find decent pilots at those wages and work conditions. Delta, American, Alaska, Southwest, and United are going to suck everyone up over the next ten years. Those planes are going to being sitting on the tarmac with no pilots to fly them unless they seriously increase QOL and pay. I could make more going back and flying a desk for what they want to pay.

PurpleToolBox
02-10-2017, 09:26 PM
I just don't see how they're going to find decent pilots at those wages and work conditions. Delta, American, Alaska, Southwest, and United are going to suck everyone up over the next ten years. Those planes are going to being sitting on the tarmac with no pilots to fly them unless they seriously increase QOL and pay. I could make more going back and flying a desk for what they want to pay.

China, India, and third world nations.

NEDude
02-10-2017, 11:15 PM
I just don't see how they're going to find decent pilots at those wages and work conditions. Delta, American, Alaska, Southwest, and United are going to suck everyone up over the next ten years. Those planes are going to being sitting on the tarmac with no pilots to fly them unless they seriously increase QOL and pay. I could make more going back and flying a desk for what they want to pay.

The problem is that there are a lot of European pilots already at Norwegian who have either dual US citizenship or the ability to obtain a green card, who are applying for those stateside positions. Apparently they have not had to do any outside hiring to staff the future FLL 787 base.

atpcliff
02-10-2017, 11:56 PM
China and India don't have enough pilots to crew their own aircraft. That is why they are hiring expat FOs with no PIC time as Captains, and why they are hiring experienced captains and paying them way more than $30K/month. India is hiring expats.
Other third world countries: Some have excess pilots, but they are almost all low-experienced pilots. NAI wants experienced pilots, and probably cannot get any third world pilots that meet their criteria.
I also think they will have difficulty crewing those aircraft...
The Pilot Shortage is worldwide...

The Dominican
02-11-2017, 12:24 AM
China, India, and third world nations.

Both China and India have a very vibrant aviation development and T&C's for the local pilots have been on the rise on the past 5 to 8 years......., there are a LOT of A/C orders on the region and with the lack of warm bodies it will be difficult to crew their own airplanes so the T&C's will continue to rise.

Latin America is another story...., the T&C's down there are still pretty pathetic and some pilots from that region might take a bite....! But I wouldn't expect Chinese or Hindi pilots flocking to this job..., not for those numbers.

Qotsaautopilot
02-11-2017, 05:39 AM
The problem is that there are a lot of European pilots already at Norwegian who have either dual US citizenship or the ability to obtain a green card, who are applying for those stateside positions. Apparently they have not had to do any outside hiring to staff the future FLL 787 base.

If they are able to work in the US already why not apply to a US carrier making much much more.

WHACKMASTER
02-11-2017, 08:00 AM
They may even let you drink the water from the airplane, which is a step up from Ryanair. Face it, there are guys out there who will jump at the opportunity to fly a 787 for RJ wages.

Here you have it. Post #28

https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/foreign/95727-norwegian-launches-fll-guadaloupe-3.html

Nevjets
02-11-2017, 08:05 AM
The problem is that there are a lot of European pilots already at Norwegian who have either dual US citizenship or the ability to obtain a green card, who are applying for those stateside positions. Apparently they have not had to do any outside hiring to staff the future FLL 787 base.



Are these the 50% they are talking about?

Andy
02-11-2017, 08:38 AM
If they are able to work in the US already why not apply to a US carrier making much much more.

I'll go with 'can't get hired at a major' for $200, Alex. The other alternative is that they like working for RJ wages.

The 'good' thing is that NAS was offering quadruple time to pilots last summer if they'd fly on their days off. That's 10 whole days off per month where there's opportunity to get their pay up to LCC wages from RJ wages. Norwegian's pilots are now offered quadruple salary if they give up vacation - Business Insider Nordic (http://nordic.businessinsider.com/norwegian-2016-7)

One reason why they want to be US based is that the cost of living is lower in the US. Just ask our resident WOW pilot (who makes a similar salary to NAS pilots, also with 10 days off/mo) if the cost of living in the US is higher or lower than Europe/Iceland.

Andy
02-11-2017, 09:18 AM
Here you have it. Post #28

https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/foreign/95727-norwegian-launches-fll-guadaloupe-3.html

If his airline apps look anything like that post, I can see why he hasn't been called. And further proof to me that it's well worth spending a few bucks to an airline prep service. If for nothing else, at least to proofread your resume. :eek:

WelcomeToBen
02-11-2017, 09:23 AM
If the European pilot environment is as described where NAI looks good why are people still signing up for the job? In general Europe is more expensive to live than the US and with pay that low the buying power is even lower. Why in the world are people becoming pilots. I gotta say I wouldn't be doing it if those were the options. I mean is the whole industry just full of naive kids trying to live a dream? At some point they must realize when they have a family that the pay and qol just doesn't add up, right?

I've been wondering this same thing. I can't imagine $110,000 anywhere in Western Europe goes very far towards supporting a family. Not to mention the poor QOL issues. I would bail on this career in a hot second if $110,000 and 10 days off per month was as good as it got. I'd be curious to hear NEDude's take on this.

hoover
02-12-2017, 01:46 PM
And it's not 10 days off in a row!!
I just can't imagine anyone doing that. Those who are going the expat route would never take that horrible contract.

kevbo
02-12-2017, 07:40 PM
I've been wondering this same thing. I can't imagine $110,000 anywhere in Western Europe goes very far towards supporting a family. Not to mention the poor QOL issues. I would bail on this career in a hot second if $110,000 and 10 days off per month was as good as it got. I'd be curious to hear NEDude's take on this.

Most pilots do considerably worse than that for two thirds of their lives. You are special indeed.

NEDude
02-13-2017, 01:32 AM
If they are able to work in the US already why not apply to a US carrier making much much more.

Numerous reason. No awareness of what the US market is like combined with no FAA license and no knowledge of the process of obtaining one. Most of the guys I talk with at my airline still think pay is like the post 9/11 early 2000s. The ones who have come back from the Middle East also talk a lot about all the Americans leaving and going home, so they think the competition for the jobs is tough. There is also a lot of belief that the US carriers will practice age discrimination and only want to hire US natives, just like the European major airlines have age limits and very strongly prefer their own citizens. Doubt you will find many Germans flying for Air France.

My guess is many of these guys will start to see what the US market is like once they start working from the US bases, and that may change the dynamic a bit.

PurpleToolBox
02-13-2017, 10:02 AM
Most pilots do considerably worse than that for two thirds of their lives. You are special indeed.

Don't take this personal but you shouldn't enter this career field if you aren't able to start at a major or legacy carrier. Losing that many years of potentially much higher income is devasting to your legacy wealth and family's quality of life.

You would be much better off remaining home, starting and building a local business and serving your local community. I have several friends who are contractors or own their own construction business (electrical, plumbing, fencing/security, concrete, roofing) and they're killing it. I do very good myself but I'm gone a lot from home and I don't have the property or equipment these guys have built up through the years.

NEDude
02-13-2017, 12:07 PM
I've been wondering this same thing. I can't imagine $110,000 anywhere in Western Europe goes very far towards supporting a family. Not to mention the poor QOL issues. I would bail on this career in a hot second if $110,000 and 10 days off per month was as good as it got. I'd be curious to hear NEDude's take on this.

Can't speak for every country, but I am quite comfortable in a Scandinavian capital city on not much more than that.

Arado 234
02-13-2017, 01:38 PM
Can't speak for every country, but I am quite comfortable in a Scandinavian capital city on not much more than that.

How much do you have to pay for a pack of cigarettes where you live?

NEDude
02-13-2017, 02:17 PM
How much do you have to pay for a pack of cigarettes where you live?

Never bought a pack of cigarettes before, so no idea what they cost.

WelcomeToBen
02-13-2017, 02:33 PM
Can't speak for every country, but I am quite comfortable in a Scandinavian capital city on not much more than that.

Do you have any children to support? Are you the primary breadwinner or do you have a secondary income from a spouse? $110,000 would afford you a pretty decent QOL most places in the US if you're just supporting yourself but once you ad children, a spouse (assuming the spouse does not work) and then consider retirement contributions, taxes, healthcare premiums, etc $110,000 doesn't go very far.

WHACKMASTER
02-13-2017, 02:45 PM
Do you have any children to support? Are you the primary breadwinner or do you have a secondary income from a spouse? $110,000 would afford you a pretty decent QOL most places in the US if you're just supporting yourself but once you ad children, a spouse (assuming the spouse does not work) and then consider retirement contributions, taxes, healthcare premiums, etc $110,000 doesn't go very far.

......much less so in any of the Scandinavian countries as they are VERY expensive.

NEDude
02-13-2017, 03:05 PM
Do you have any children to support? Are you the primary breadwinner or do you have a secondary income from a spouse? $110,000 would afford you a pretty decent QOL most places in the US if you're just supporting yourself but once you ad children, a spouse (assuming the spouse does not work) and then consider retirement contributions, taxes, healthcare premiums, etc $110,000 doesn't go very far.

Five kids to support - three of my own and two step children. My wife works full-time, as is typical in the Scandinavian countries.

I was born and raised in the States and have only lived in Europe for a few years, so I know very much what life is like in the States. Overall, even with the higher taxes, not having to pay healthcare premiums/co-pays or save for my kids higher education (free/covered in the taxes) leaves me with more of my income. There are also a lot of little things that I am not having to spend money on. For example, because the schools are properly funded where I live, I am not having to constantly spend money school supplies like I did when I lived in Arizona. Extra-curricular activities for the kids are significantly less expensive now too. Public transportation is abundant so even though cars and gas are overall much more expensive, I spend less because we use the public transportation so much.

There are a lot of forums where the differences between life in the States and and life in Europe are better described. But it is different, and most Europeans have a very different outlook.

WelcomeToBen
02-13-2017, 03:30 PM
Five kids to support - three of my own and two step children. My wife works full-time, as is typical in the Scandinavian countries.

I was born and raised in the States and have only lived in Europe for a few years, so I know very much what life is like in the States. Overall, even with the higher taxes, not having to pay healthcare premiums/co-pays or save for my kids higher education (free/covered in the taxes) leaves me with more of my income. There are also a lot of little things that I am not having to spend money on. For example, because the schools are properly funded where I live, I am not having to constantly spend money school supplies like I did when I lived in Arizona. Extra-curricular activities for the kids are significantly less expensive now too. Public transportation is abundant so even though cars and gas are overall much more expensive, I spend less because we use the public transportation so much.

There are a lot of forums where the differences between life in the States and and life in Europe are better described. But it is different, and most Europeans have a very different outlook.

Interesting. Thanks for the info. I'm definitely jealous of the health care and higher education situation you have over there. Hopefully one day we'll join the rest of the developed world in that department.

CousinEddie
02-13-2017, 05:20 PM
Five kids to support - three of my own and two step children. My wife works full-time, as is typical in the Scandinavian countries.

I was born and raised in the States and have only lived in Europe for a few years, so I know very much what life is like in the States. Overall, even with the higher taxes, not having to pay healthcare premiums/co-pays or save for my kids higher education (free/covered in the taxes) leaves me with more of my income. There are also a lot of little things that I am not having to spend money on. For example, because the schools are properly funded where I live, I am not having to constantly spend money school supplies like I did when I lived in Arizona. Extra-curricular activities for the kids are significantly less expensive now too. Public transportation is abundant so even though cars and gas are overall much more expensive, I spend less because we use the public transportation so much.

There are a lot of forums where the differences between life in the States and and life in Europe are better described. But it is different, and most Europeans have a very different outlook.

Sounds great. Is it sustainable?

https://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2015/10/15/bernie-sanders-scandinavia-not-socialist-utopia/lUk9N7dZotJRbvn8PosoIN/story.html

Bozo the pilot
02-13-2017, 05:53 PM
Five kids to support - three of my own and two step children. My wife works full-time, as is typical in the Scandinavian countries.

I was born and raised in the States and have only lived in Europe for a few years, so I know very much what life is like in the States. Overall, even with the higher taxes, not having to pay healthcare premiums/co-pays or save for my kids higher education (free/covered in the taxes) leaves me with more of my income. There are also a lot of little things that I am not having to spend money on. For example, because the schools are properly funded where I live, I am not having to constantly spend money school supplies like I did when I lived in Arizona. Extra-curricular activities for the kids are significantly less expensive now too. Public transportation is abundant so even though cars and gas are overall much more expensive, I spend less because we use the public transportation so much.

There are a lot of forums where the differences between life in the States and and life in Europe are better described. But it is different, and most Europeans have a very different outlook.
I lived in Europe- Its a sh7t show:cool:

bay982
02-13-2017, 06:40 PM
I lived in Europe- Its a sh7t show:cool:

Any more specific information than this? There are about 50 countries in Europe.

Perhaps you're being humorous.

Ohlsan
02-13-2017, 06:55 PM
Do you have any children to support? Are you the primary breadwinner or do you have a secondary income from a spouse? $110,000 would afford you a pretty decent QOL most places in the US if you're just supporting yourself but once you ad children, a spouse (assuming the spouse does not work) and then consider retirement contributions, taxes, healthcare premiums, etc $110,000 doesn't go very far.

Not saying I agree with NAI, but I make less than $110,000 and support 3 kids and a wife(stay at home mom) in the US. So going to NAI would be a pay raise for me, and 10 days off a month would be 2 more than I get right now(not counting holidays).

Half wing
02-13-2017, 09:00 PM
Not saying I agree with NAI, but I make less than $110,000 and support 3 kids and a wife(stay at home mom) in the US. So going to NAI would be a pay raise for me, and 10 days off a month would be 2 more than I get right now(not counting holidays).

I think you wouldnt see home at all for those 20 days a month at work though. The 10 days they give you off will probably move at their whim. Probably loose a day off on either side getting into position. It would be a qol nightmare. I would rather have a sweet king air gig flying 5 days a week making 80k then the NAI bs. Actually get to see the family. That's just me.

Ohlsan
02-13-2017, 09:04 PM
I think you wouldnt see home at all for those 20 days a month at work though. The 10 days they give you off will probably move at their whim. Probably loose a day off on either side getting into position. It would be a qol nightmare. I would rather have a sweet king air gig flying 5 days a week making 80k then the NAI bs. Actually get to see the family. That's just me.

I agree with you, I like my current QOL/pay balance, although I would jump at the chance to fly for a US Major/LCC

Andy
02-13-2017, 10:15 PM
How much do you have to pay for a pack of cigarettes where you live?

Better questions would have been, 'how long have you worked at WOW'? 'Are you done with training at WOW yet' (hint: probably not)

'Have you lived in Europe and/or flown for a European carrier before WOW?' (Hint, best I can tell, his resume includes VX and a stint in China; he's not a long term resident of Europe).

Then put all of this in context to the response you'd get from a new hire at any US airline.

forgot to bid
02-13-2017, 10:15 PM
White House press secretary Sean Spicer on Tuesday suggested that the Trump administration looks favorably on the foreign air carrier permit that the Obama administration granted to Norwegian Air's Ireland-based subsidiary in December.
"There is a huge economic benefit that lies in that deal right now," Spicer said, referring to Norwegian's plan to purchase more than 100 Boeing aircraft and noting that Norwegian has committed to hiring U.S. workers."

Now that the reality is out, whats the latest from those who voted against self interest?

No Obama this. No Hiliary that. We have who we have. His administration has came out with his position on how great this will be to Make America Great Again.

This is intended to be an actual discussion on what DID happen. Not but if......

A) Unless I missed it, why didn't you quote what Spicer said in full? It's on the White House website.

John Gizzi.
Q Thank you, Sean. On Thursday, weather permitting, the President is going to meet with airline executives from throughout the country. Two complaints from airline executives, as well as the Pilots Association, have been, one, that Norwegian Airlines got a special advantage, a foreign carrier permit from the Obama administration, and also that the airlines of the Arab Emirates are state-subsidized, and both cases are violations of the Blue Skies Act between the U.S. and the EU. Is this something he’s going to address? And is he considering upending President Obama’s foreign carrier permit?

MR. SPICER: Well, again, that will be something that -- that will be decided when they meet, what they’ll talk about. Obviously, the President is going to want to talk about economic growth and job creation, how he’s enacting orders to make sure the country is safe.
On the case of Norwegian, my understanding, if I’m correct, that there is a deal in which they’re having 50 percent of the crews and the pilots are American-based. They’re flying Boeing planes. There is a huge economic interest that America has in that deal right now. I don’t want to get ahead of the President on that. But just to be clear, I mean, when you’re talking about U.S. jobs, both in terms of the people who are serving those planes and the person who’s building those planes. That’s a very big difference.

So, the way I take it is this was all said before the airline execs had made their case, but you're saying it's over and done with and Trump voters suck but lets have an honest discussion and whatever. LOL. You remind me of this woman:

https://j.gifs.com/KOG0zn.gif

How about everyone calm down, see what happens, pay your ALPA dues, write your congressman, and whatever, and maybe make some inconsequential arguments on an internet site or something.

Oh and lets make sure we thank God that this DID happen...

http://static.lakana.com/media.fox5dc.com/photo/2017/01/20/Still0120_00085_1484932126239_2578701_ver1.0_640_3 60.jpg

NEDude
02-14-2017, 02:46 AM
Better questions would have been, 'how long have you worked at WOW'? 'Are you done with training at WOW yet' (hint: probably not)

'Have you lived in Europe and/or flown for a European carrier before WOW?' (Hint, best I can tell, his resume includes VX and a stint in China; he's not a long term resident of Europe).

Then put all of this in context to the response you'd get from a new hire at any US airline.

Been at WOW for six months. Worked in China for three years on a commuting contract. Lived in Europe for more than five years and have dual US/EU citizenship. No prior European airline as I had to wait until I had EU citizenship AND get the EASA ATPLs done. No desire to return to the U.S.

Bozo the pilot
02-14-2017, 06:13 AM
Any more specific information than this? There are about 50 countries in Europe.

Perhaps you're being humorous.

Yes- It was a dig at the Europia-boy who was singing the praises of life in Socialism. He left out the lack of upward mobility among many things. I have lived in Europe, but the USA is superior if you have any work ethic whatsoever.

Andy
02-14-2017, 10:09 AM
Been at WOW for six months. Worked in China for three years on a commuting contract. Lived in Europe for more than five years and have dual US/EU citizenship. No prior European airline as I had to wait until I had EU citizenship AND get the EASA ATPLs done. No desire to return to the U.S.

Got it. You're a brand new contract pilot at WOW who just came off a 3 year China contract, which followed your flying at Virgin America. Sounds like you've been chasing a quick/direct entry to the left seat for quite a while. Lived in Europe at some point in your life, not specific as to the timeframe ... you didn't fly in Europe so part of it must have been when you were on contract in China.

And since WOW is only based in Reykjavik, one would assume you're saying that life there is fantastic for two working parents making $110K/yr with a family of 7 (you stated that your wife works for another airline). Having been to Iceland (three week military TDY to NAS Keflavik), I find it hard to believe that your family's living comfortably there. Iceland and most of Europe have much higher prices on almost all consumer goods than the US. And food prices are considerably higher in Iceland due to its location/need to import just about everything other than fish and mutton.
As far as things to do in Iceland, it seemed like the #1 activity was getting drunk all night with the Blue Lagoon coming in a distant second place.
But you've got 10 days off a month, so you've got that going for you.
Is this the Euroland nirvana you're trying to sell here? Oh yeah, sign me up; that's an awesome life. Make sure and let us know when this loses its new car smell and you're on to the next 'best life ever,' dragging your family somewhere else in the EU. (and yes, I know that Iceland is not an EU member; they're only in the EFTA).

NEDude
02-15-2017, 01:00 AM
Got it. You're a brand new contract pilot at WOW who just came off a 3 year China contract, which followed your flying at Virgin America. Sounds like you've been chasing a quick/direct entry to the left seat for quite a while. Lived in Europe at some point in your life, not specific as to the timeframe ... you didn't fly in Europe so part of it must have been when you were on contract in China.

And since WOW is only based in Reykjavik, one would assume you're saying that life there is fantastic for two working parents making $110K/yr with a family of 7 (you stated that your wife works for another airline). Having been to Iceland (three week military TDY to NAS Keflavik), I find it hard to believe that your family's living comfortably there. Iceland and most of Europe have much higher prices on almost all consumer goods than the US. And food prices are considerably higher in Iceland due to its location/need to import just about everything other than fish and mutton.
As far as things to do in Iceland, it seemed like the #1 activity was getting drunk all night with the Blue Lagoon coming in a distant second place.
But you've got 10 days off a month, so you've got that going for you.
Is this the Euroland nirvana you're trying to sell here? Oh yeah, sign me up; that's an awesome life. Make sure and let us know when this loses its new car smell and you're on to the next 'best life ever,' dragging your family somewhere else in the EU. (and yes, I know that Iceland is not an EU member; they're only in the EFTA).

Interesting that you seem totally determined to define my life and lifestyle. I am not trying to sell anything, just pointing out many of the fallacies that are posted here and that my family and I live quite comfortably. Sorry to disappoint you, but nothing you can say or do will change my opinion on that. But to satisfy your curiosity, no, I do not live in Iceland. But I am glad your three weeks of TDY at a Naval Air Station (that has been closed for more than a decade) has made you an expert on all things Icelandic. Apparently you never made the 30 minute drive to Reykjavik, which has all the amenities you would expect from any city - clubs, bars, theaters, restaurants, sporting events, shopping, etc.

NEDude
02-15-2017, 01:15 AM
Yes- It was a dig at the Europia-boy who was singing the praises of life in Socialism. He left out the lack of upward mobility among many things. I have lived in Europe, but the USA is superior if you have any work ethic whatsoever.

Lack of upward mobility?! Do you even bother to research what you post or do you just randomly spout "alternative facts" that sound good to you?. Of developed countries, the United States has among the worst upward mobility. According to a 2010 study by the OECD the ten best countries in the world for upward mobility are Denmark, Norway, Finland, Canada, Australia, Sweden, New Zealand, Germany, Japan and Spain. In 2014 Harvard did a study and it concluded that "the U.S. ranks consistently lower than most developed countries when it comes to mobility", and that the odds of escaping poverty in the U.S. are half as good as they are higher ranked countries like Denmark.

Secondly, please name a western European country that is socialist. I cannot think of one socialist country in the EU or EEA, and I know I do not live in one, so there is no way I would sing the praises of socialism.

mainlineAF
02-15-2017, 07:45 AM
Been at WOW for six months. Worked in China for three years on a commuting contract. Lived in Europe for more than five years and have dual US/EU citizenship. No prior European airline as I had to wait until I had EU citizenship AND get the EASA ATPLs done. No desire to return to the U.S.



I looked at WOWs terms of employment. 20 days on and 10 off for something like 8500 euros a month for captains. So are you only home 10 days then spend the rest in Iceland in their dorm? I'm genuinely curious, not trolling.

GogglesPisano
02-15-2017, 07:52 AM
Looks like they're attempting to bring the "temp worker" environment that has been the status quo in most of the world (outside European and Japanese legacies) to the US. Short-term contracts. No unions. Training bonds. DEC's. Working for an "agency" instead of an airline. No career positions or any sense of loyalty (think ME3.)

The legacies and ALPA need to kill it in it's crib like Laker.

Mugatu
02-15-2017, 04:48 PM
NAI will be nothing compared to Trump and the GOP passing a national right to work bill.

It was announced today Buffett bought another load of airlines stocks. He doesn't seem concerned about NAI long term.

National right to work?? Hmm.

Andy
02-15-2017, 06:18 PM
I looked at WOWs terms of employment. 20 days on and 10 off for something like 8500 euros a month for captains. So are you only home 10 days then spend the rest in Iceland in their dorm? I'm genuinely curious, not trolling.

Crickets from NEDude, but that almost certainly sums it up. He lives in WOW dorms most of the month. WOW's 320s fly out and backs daily.

The glorious life of an expat contract pilot. :rolleyes:

As for Reykjavik, I spent enough time there when the population was north of 100K to know there wasn't much to do there. The current population is 120K and a glance through TripAdvisor indicates that nothing's changed.

jcountry
02-15-2017, 06:44 PM
NAI will be nothing compared to Trump and the GOP passing a national right to work bill.

It was announced today Buffett bought another load of airlines stocks. He doesn't seem concerned about NAI long term.

National right to work?? Hmm.



How would that get passed? There are more than enough RINOs in the senate (and probably the house) to completely kill something like that.

Andy
02-15-2017, 07:06 PM
I agree with you, I like my current QOL/pay balance, although I would jump at the chance to fly for a US Major/LCC

Have you spent a few bucks on an interview prep? Have them at least review your applications for any problems.

Ohlsan
02-15-2017, 07:11 PM
Have you spent a few bucks on an interview prep? Have them at least review your applications for any problems.

Yes sir, I sent it to Centerline interview prep and they found some errors that I had missed.

Andy
02-15-2017, 07:15 PM
Yes sir, I sent it to Centerline interview prep and they found some errors that I had missed.

Good. Just follow any other advice they gave you; the call will eventually come unless you've got some glaring deficiency like no 4 year degree. The pool of 'highly qualified' applicants is still pretty big but it's getting smaller daily.

Heck, I remember when GogglesPisano left OmniAir(? or Atlas?) for Delta. :)

NEDude
02-15-2017, 11:16 PM
I looked at WOWs terms of employment. 20 days on and 10 off for something like 8500 euros a month for captains. So are you only home 10 days then spend the rest in Iceland in their dorm? I'm genuinely curious, not trolling.

12 nights at home/18 in the apartments/company hotel.

NEDude
02-15-2017, 11:28 PM
Crickets from NEDude, but that almost certainly sums it up. He lives in WOW dorms most of the month. WOW's 320s fly out and backs daily.

The glorious life of an expat contract pilot. :rolleyes:

As for Reykjavik, I spent enough time there when the population was north of 100K to know there wasn't much to do there. The current population is 120K and a glance through TripAdvisor indicates that nothing's changed.

Clearly you are ignorant to time zones and working. So yes, the crickets from me are an indication that I actually work and do so in a time zone different from yours.

The life I have now is far most glamorous than sitting in a crashpad on reserve for 18 days each month. My positive space commute is covered by the company, my schedule is set - I can plan my time off for the next year, I have a single occupancy apartment if I am in the company apartment, or a two room suite if I am at the hotel, I have access to company cars for transportation.

I have absolutely zero issues finding something to do or people to spend time with. Clearly we are very different types of people.

PS - The A321s do layovers in Boston, Baltimore, Newark and Montreal, so not all nights are in KEF.

GogglesPisano
02-16-2017, 09:24 AM
Good. Just follow any other advice they gave you; the call will eventually come unless you've got some glaring deficiency like no 4 year degree. The pool of 'highly qualified' applicants is still pretty big but it's getting smaller daily.

Heck, I remember when GogglesPisano left OmniAir(? or Atlas?) for Delta. :)

World. Never looked back. (It also helps that every previous employer -- from flight school to regional to ACMI -- is now defunct.) You get secret points for that on most apps.:D

Shindo
02-16-2017, 10:44 AM
NAI will be nothing compared to Trump and the GOP passing a national right to work bill.

It was announced today Buffett bought another load of airlines stocks. He doesn't seem concerned about NAI long term.

National right to work?? Hmm.

Oh the horror being given the choice to be part of a union or not.

WelcomeToBen
02-16-2017, 11:02 AM
Oh the horror being given the choice to be part of a union or not.

That's how they sell it. The reality is that these laws completely neuter the influence of labor unions. If the majority of a labor group for votes to opt for union representation, is it that crazy of an idea to require all the members of said work force to become members and pay dues? If they don't want to work for a union shop, then they can go and seek out a career at a non union shop. Funny thing is, the union shops tend to be the most desirable places to work with the best wages and benefits.

GogglesPisano
02-16-2017, 11:16 AM
Oh the horror being given the choice to be part of a union or not.

There are plenty of non-union airlines out there. Pilots are free to work there without having to pay dues. They can be full-on rugged individualist. They're mostly located in Miami, fly cargo, and offer exceptional pay and working conditions :p

You should check them out.

Freeeddooommmm!

(But if you want to work at a decent carrier with better pay and benefits, you need to pay your fair share to maintain that. No free-riders. Airline pilots don't make what they do because of the all-hallowed free market alone.)

Delphin
02-16-2017, 02:03 PM
While he was signing the coal miner EO he referenced his meeting with airline execs and said that there were a bunch of regulations holding back airlines, killing jobs, etc... does anybody know which laws he was referencing?

mainlineAF
02-16-2017, 04:27 PM
While he was signing the coal miner EO he referenced his meeting with airline execs and said that there were a bunch of regulations holding back airlines, killing jobs, etc... does anybody know which laws he was referencing?



Yes. Cabotage and the lack of universal open skies agreements. Look for efforts to kill them in the near future.

C130driver
02-16-2017, 04:45 PM
Yes. Cabotage and the lack of universal open skies agreements. Look for efforts to kill them in the near future.

If Cabotage does come, wouldn't US airlines be able to do intra national flying in other countries? For example, city to city in China? They could even do TDYs for pilots to live in china fly for a month come back for a month off, for instance. Am I off the mark here?

Half wing
02-16-2017, 08:41 PM
If Cabotage does come, wouldn't US airlines be able to do intra national flying in other countries? For example, city to city in China? They could even do TDYs for pilots to live in china fly for a month come back for a month off, for instance. Am I off the mark here?

US majors get their strength from the feed in the USA. There is no feed or US brand loyalty in foreign countries. Seats would be hard to fill.

Wingdeagle
02-18-2017, 11:56 PM
Looks like they're attempting to bring the "temp worker" environment that has been the status quo in most of the world (outside European and Japanese legacies) to the US. Short-term contracts. No unions. Training bonds. DEC's. Working for an "agency" instead of an airline. No career positions or any sense of loyalty (think ME3.)

The legacies and ALPA need to kill it in it's crib like Laker.

Hi Goggles, I am first time poster so please be nice :-).

I don't like to post, but feel the need to address the "temp worker" points you seem to be too familiar with.

First of all I, like so many think NAI is a flag of convenience and needs to be stopped before it harms the US pilot market, which for itself is unique in the world (not a bad thing).

By unique I mean, the way the pilot market works in the US is not the way it works in the rest of the world. Like everything else, it has it's good and bad, strengths and weaknesses. We can discuss the pros and cons, but that's a different topic.

I am a so called "temp worker", or a contractor or whatever you call it.

There are thousands of us scattered around the world, flying on good contracts and less good ones. Many of us fly for very respected foreign airlines, compensating for regional pilot shortages, making tons of money (therefore keeping up the high standard of pay) and have tons of time off (4 months vacation for me). So it's not all that bad.

I would like to address every point you made one by one if I may:

Japanese legacies:

A very famous Japanese legacy ANA is running an outfit called "Air Japan", which flies under ANA colors. Most pilots are foreigners. The pay and the general terms of employment are among the best in the world. Yet, Air Japan (as far as I know) is a non union division of ANA and their pilots are contracted through agencies.

Short term contracts: sure, if someone's willing to go for it. Do "long term" contracts in the US protect you from being furloughed ? Contracts are nothing but a worthless piece of paper when it comes to job stability. Union or not.

Unions: some pilots see them necessary, some do not. All about the individual preference. Goods and bads about having a union or not having one. I used to be 150% union, but also think that the current model needs a serious overhaul. Many pilots who do not think they are necessary, do quite well without them and still make tons of money and have careers. All depends where you are and who you work for.

Training bonds: yup ! Started in the US, Frontier is asking for one.

DEC's: necessary in many countries outside US. There is a big worldwide shortage of experienced Captains and many F/O's simply don't have the required hours, so these companies fill the shortages with DEC's. On the other hand, the United States is the only place in the world, where a Captain with 20+ years of experience and five digit numbers in his/her log book can be bumped back to the right seat simply based on date of hire. Oh the famous seniority system. Like it, great, don't like it, carry on (I did).

Working for an "agency": Did it for many years. Pay was on time or early, great benefits like health insurance (100 bucks a month covered my entire family), stood behind me when there were some grey clouds in the sky.
As always, depends on which "agency" you are with, it could be good or plain hell. On the side note: "contract pilots" are "free agents", so nothing wrong with an agency taking care of them (they do make profits of course). Like in sports.

No career positions: depends on the airline. I personally know quite a few guys who started as F/Os at my previous airline and are now type rating instructors and examiners with the same company. Some started on narrow bodies and are now in the left seat of a wide body. So this simply does not apply to all foreign carriers hiring "contractors".

Loyalty ? Are you kidding me ? Name me one airline with "loyalty". If the economy tankers tomorrow, the majors will not hesitate to put people on the street and take away their pensions, as history has shown. There is no loyalty in the airline business world and this applies to ANY airline, US or foreign.

Now you may ask me what all this has to do with "NAI" ? Pretty much nothing, like your example of "temp worker". It's a completely different topic.

Cheers :-)

Wingdeagle
02-19-2017, 01:55 AM
[QUOTE=GogglesPisano;2302958]There are plenty of non-union airlines out there. Pilots are free to work there without having to pay dues. They can be full-on rugged individualist. They're mostly located in Miami, fly cargo, and offer exceptional pay and working conditions :p

You should check them out.

Freeeddooommmm!

No, most of them are not located in Miami, but scattered all over the world and fly passengers. They do not pay union dues, but sacrifice in many different ways (long commutes and keeping the pay scales on a very high level). Freeeddddooommm to come and go as you wish and to accept or decline contracts on individual basis: yup. But it's all a trade off. Some things work better for some than others. Check out my post 128.

Please don't pick at the guys flying cargo out of Miami. Many of them are heck of aviator, but perhaps for one reason or other never had a chance at the dream job you maybe having. Perhaps some just do not interview well, but can fly the heck out of an aircraft, some may never have the right connections or people to help them to get to a major. Some choose ACMI, some fly for small airlines, some go overseas. These people do not harm you or your airline. They do what's best for them and try to put food on the table just like you do.

The majors are doing great right now and I hope it will last for the next 100 years. But we all know how this industry works. You never know: today you are cozy at a legacy, tomorrow you may on the street crying over your lost pension looking for ways to pay your mortgage.

Cheers :-)

Cheers :-)

Wingdeagle
02-19-2017, 02:04 AM
[QUOTE=Wingdeagle;2304670][QUOTE=GogglesPisano;2302958]There are plenty of non-union airlines out there. Pilots are free to work there without having to pay dues. They can be full-on rugged individualist. They're mostly located in Miami, fly cargo, and offer exceptional pay and working conditions :p

You should check them out.

Freeeddooommmm!

No, most of them are not located in Miami, but scattered all over the world and fly passengers. They do not pay union dues, but sacrifice in many different ways (long commutes and keeping the pay scales on a very high level). Freeeddddooommm to come and go as you wish and to accept or decline contracts on individual basis: yup. But it's all a trade off. Some things work better for some than others. Check out my post 128.

Please don't pick on the guys flying cargo out of Miami. Many of them are heck of aviators, but perhaps for one reason or other never had a chance at the dream job you may be having. Perhaps some just do not interview well, but can fly the heck out of an aircraft, some may never have the right connections or people to help them to get to a major. Some choose ACMI, some fly for small airlines, some go overseas. These people do not harm you or your airline. They do what's best for them and try to put food on the table just like you do.

The majors are doing great right now and I hope it will last for the next 100 years. But we all know how this industry works. You never know: today you are cozy at a legacy, tomorrow you may on the street crying over your lost pension looking for ways to pay your mortgage.

Cheers :-)

GogglesPisano
02-19-2017, 02:56 AM
Wingdeagle:

I get what you're saying. But forgive us if we don't relish the thought of temp agencies and short-term contracts rearing their ugly head in the US where one can secure a legacy job and be fairly set for life (barring another 9-11 event -- but then who would be safe?)

And yes there are plenty of ACMI/regional guys who will apply there. Market forces will prevail, but peer pressure and fear of blacklisting will hopefully have an influence.

Wingdeagle
02-19-2017, 05:42 AM
Wingdeagle:

I get what you're saying. But forgive us if we don't relish the thought of temp agencies and short-term contracts rearing their ugly head in the US where one can secure a legacy job and be fairly set for life (barring another 9-11 event -- but then who would be safe?)

And yes there are plenty of ACMI/regional guys who will apply there. Market forces will prevail, but peer pressure and fear of blacklisting will hopefully have an influence.

Goggles, we actually agree. I do not want the agencies to infiltrate the US market. As I wrote, it's a unique pilot market and protecting it is just as important as letting other pilots make their choices - elsewhere please, where the model of contract pilot not only works, but keeps an entire industry afloat. I chose this route and so did many others. Live and let live, but do not lower standards !

I have no answer how to stop NAI spreading their wings on US soil, but I doubt peer pressure and fear of blacklisting will work. Remember GoJet and all the cries and threats and the Jumpseat denials. They are still around and the cries subsided many years ago.

Guys had a chance to fly a shiny new jet, no one was hiring and they said f..k it. Quite a few are at the legacies nowadays.

We can bash all the current and future NAI crews as long as we want and as long as it makes us feel better, but this will not stop this virus spreading. Unless the government steps in, I really do not know how to stop them.

I would certainly hate to see the US airline industry slowly going the path of European airlines (and contrary to what some people say, the European market IS broken).

Cheers :-)

Andy
02-20-2017, 09:15 AM
If Cabotage does come, wouldn't US airlines be able to do intra national flying in other countries? For example, city to city in China? They could even do TDYs for pilots to live in china fly for a month come back for a month off, for instance. Am I off the mark here?

Here's why you're off the mark.

The US is the holy grail of airline passenger traffic. The US dwarfs the rest of the world in passengers and revenue. Every Fifth Freedom flight authorized to the US chips away at that holy grail.

The second part is that after WWII, two US airlines were given Fifth Freedom rights in Europe and two US airlines were given Fifth Freedom rights in the Pacific.
IIRC, Delta has inherited both Europe and Asian Fifth Freedom rights.
United has inherited Asian Fifth Freedom rights.
I don't know who has the second European Fifth Freedom right.

Almost all of those Fifth Freedom rights by US carriers is not being exercised. Likely due to airline alliances.

No, US pilots and carriers do not want to see expanded Cabotage.

Flyby1206
02-20-2017, 12:42 PM
Here's why you're off the mark.

The US is the holy grail of airline passenger traffic. The US dwarfs the rest of the world in passengers and revenue. Every Fifth Freedom flight authorized to the US chips away at that holy grail.

The second part is that after WWII, two US airlines were given Fifth Freedom rights in Europe and two US airlines were given Fifth Freedom rights in the Pacific.
IIRC, Delta has inherited both Europe and Asian Fifth Freedom rights.
United has inherited Asian Fifth Freedom rights.
I don't know who has the second European Fifth Freedom right.

Almost all of those Fifth Freedom rights by US carriers is not being exercised. Likely due to airline alliances.

No, US pilots and carriers do not want to see expanded Cabotage.

Just as an addition, the US-EU Open Skies treaty allows for any US airline to fly 5th freedom through the EU. But nobody makes use of it.

The701Express
02-20-2017, 12:46 PM
Just as an addition, the US-EU Open Skies treaty allows for any US airline to fly 5th freedom through the EU. But nobody makes use of it.

I can see the 321LR changing that. Shannon has customs preclearance and makes a good stepping stone to points east of there.