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FlyingJman
02-11-2017, 04:53 PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_convenience

If the NAI threat materializes and our industry goes in the direction of the maritime shipping industry what do you all see as how it would shake out?

Trying to wrap my mind around just how bad it could get, how fast, and also what the most likely scenario will be. Who loses the biggest first?

What are the major factors and variables?

I'd imagine with the global supply of qualified pilots there's a bit of a limiting factor built in.

Also, it's not like Boeing and Airbus can limitlessly surge their production to match NAI or NAI-modeled demand, so I'd imagine these FOC companies would have a limit on their growth based on their ability to acquire aircraft. Would the used market help alleviate this?

Are we talking decades? Years? Months?

Who will be the first to fall? Who's most vulnerable? NAI in FLL does what to whom?

In personal discussions with acquaintences I have seen little to zero hesitation of potential travelers if given the option of paying a "normal" fare, versus a deeply discounted ticket from an NAI-like company.

Looking to opening a discussion on this... I'm trying to find literature on the maritime industry... if anyone has any suggested materials please let us know.


Vital Signs
02-11-2017, 05:46 PM
FRONTLINE/WORLD . Spain - The Lawless Sea . Hiding Behind the Flag - Introduction | PBS (http://www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/stories/spain/flags1.html)

Shindo
02-11-2017, 08:15 PM
Most likely is we will see downsizing of some a/c. I would expect that flying a 321 across the pond will be common in 15 years. The reality is that at the end of the day you still need to feed Transatlantic flights. Just because you can lower your costs doesn't mean that flying a 787a with 50% load factors will work.


50SeatsofGrey
02-12-2017, 05:14 AM
Worst case scenario: this will play out just like it did in the maritime industry. This is to say all American flag legacy carriers will be unable to compete with the foreign flag model and go out of business entirely, just like the US cruise lines did. Foreign airlines will transition to the foreign flag model, just like SAS already is. New companies will be founded under a flag of convenience, seeking to take advantage of the changing market and a new oppourtunity. Foreign flag carriers will get their transatlantic feed from Spirit, Southwest, Jetblue and the like.

Best case scenario: few foreign airlines adopt the new model, and new startups find it difficult to grow and establish themselves at a healthy pace. Legacies need to cut back, but the large number of retirements prevent any furloughs.

This industry is always changing, the precedent has already been set, and it would be foolish to think that things will look even remotely the same in 10 years.

sailingfun
02-12-2017, 05:14 AM
Most likely is we will see downsizing of some a/c. I would expect that flying a 321 across the pond will be common in 15 years. The reality is that at the end of the day you still need to feed Transatlantic flights. Just because you can lower your costs doesn't mean that flying a 787a with 50% load factors will work.

The 321 NEO has very limited ability to fly across the pond. West Europe to the NE at best.

mainlineAF
02-12-2017, 05:21 AM
As long as cabotage restrictions remain in place then the legacies may just lose some market share. If cabotage is repealed it would mean the absolute destruction of most US airlines.

sailingfun
02-12-2017, 05:29 AM
As long as cabotage restrictions remain in place then the legacies may just lose some market share. If cabotage is repealed it would mean the absolute destruction of most US airlines.

I don't think you will see that because it would cripple the US military ability to deploy.

Packrat
02-12-2017, 05:37 AM
I don't think you will see that because it would cripple the US military ability to deploy.

This would be the key, but I'd check how the MMPS ships are flagged.

50SeatsofGrey
02-12-2017, 05:38 AM
I don't think you will see that because it would cripple the US military ability to deploy.

How do you figure? Cabotage restricts domestic routes to US flag carriers only. How would travel between two US cities interfere with military deployment?

sailingfun
02-12-2017, 05:41 AM
How do you figure? Cabotage restricts domestic routes to US flag carriers only. How would travel between two US cities interfere with military deployment?

The US airline industry is what now deploys the US military. Cripple the US airlines and you cripple your ability to deploy.

Packrat
02-12-2017, 05:47 AM
The US airline industry is what now deploys the US military. Cripple the US airlines and you cripple your ability to deploy.

Very true. That's what CRAF is all about. The AF doesn't have enough organic airlift to support their own mission, much less the Army, Navy and Marine Corps.

The Part 121 charter outfits are kept in business with military charters during peacetime. Go to war and see how fast the CRAF gets activated.

50SeatsofGrey
02-12-2017, 05:49 AM
The US airline industry is what now deploys the US military. Cripple the US airlines and you cripple your ability to deploy.

I doubt legislators will have that amount of foresight, but I see your reasoning.

If they were so concerned, there would be more objection to NAI. Flag of convienence is what threatens US long haul capacity, not cabotage. By the time the topic of cabotage is even on the table, legacy international capacity could hypothetically already be gutted, making the issue moot.

prex8390
02-12-2017, 06:22 AM
Another best case scenario is they fail to gain a foothold by flying out of smaller relief airports and without any feed coming from anywhere, it will be a select market willing to make the drive or have to rent a car from Lga or JFK and drive up state just to save a few bucks. More than likely most of the loads will be European passengers traveling to the United States than Americans going abroad. You don't see allegiant controlling the market to Florida by flying out of Rockford. Worst case is international markets are decimated and legacies begin to feed nai

Shindo
02-12-2017, 06:28 AM
The 321 NEO has very limited ability to fly across the pond. West Europe to the NE at best.

Not the neo lr

WHACKMASTER
02-12-2017, 06:56 AM
For the record, our new contract Section 1 specifically states that there will be zero codeshare/interline done with FOC and State subsidized carriers (ME3) by SWA or SWAPA pilots. I hope this never gets changed and we don't contribute to this gutting of the U.S. aviation industry.

Additionally I'd like to see all U.S. Airlines giving the middle finger back to Boeing and buying Airbus products.

sailingfun
02-12-2017, 07:12 AM
Not the neo lr

Not true. The NEO LR has slightly less range then the 757 with winglets off long runways. It has even less capability then the 757 off shorter runways or high density altitudes. The current longest 757 flight I suspect is CDG to RDU. That flight is load restricted to 126 passengers and has diverted often.

Qotsaautopilot
02-12-2017, 07:14 AM
For the record, our new contract Section 1 specifically states that there will be zero codeshare/interline done with FOC and State subsidized carriers (ME3) by SWA or SWAPA pilots. I hope this never gets changed and we don't contribute to this gutting of the U.S. aviation industry.

Additionally I'd like to see all U.S. Airlines giving the middle finger back to Boeing and buying Airbus products.

That's great!

Spirit will announce a codeshare with NAI within a year if we can't secure similar scope protections in our next contract. Our section 1 protects against alter ego airlines and CPAs but codesharing is unlimited as long as they don't furlough us.

NAI is essentially a cleaner version of spirit and we will watch any hope of future wide body flying evaporate in an instant if we don't get ahead of the curve. I know the Jetblue pilots love watching all their passengers connect to a handful of different wide body carriers instead of capturing that flying and growth for themselves.

trip
02-12-2017, 07:19 AM
That's great!

Spirit will announce a codeshare with NAI within a year if we can't secure similar scope protections in our next contract. Our section 1 protects against alter ego airlines and CPAs but codesharing is unlimited as long as they don't furlough us.

NAI is essentially a cleaner version of spirit and we will watch any hope of future wide body flying evaporate in an instant if we don't get ahead of the curve. I know the Jetblue pilots love watching all their passengers connect to a handful of different wide body carriers instead of capturing that flying and growth for themselves.

NAI is already securing agreements with the likes of Ryan and Easy jet on the European front, I look for the same over here with a Like minded carrier. If that is successful then it's most likely game over.

Bwipilot
02-12-2017, 07:25 AM
I don't see NAI being able to hire enough pilots to meet their mins. I'm guessing that it might be a ploy to claim hardship--and then import pilots to fill their cockpits.

WHACKMASTER
02-12-2017, 07:51 AM
I don't see NAI being able to hire enough pilots to meet their mins. I'm guessing that it might be a ploy to claim hardship--and then import pilots to fill their cockpits.

Unfortunately I think you're completely wrong. They will find PLENTY of U.S. Regional pilots to do it. Here's one salivating over the "opportunity". Post #28:

https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/foreign/95727-norwegian-launches-fll-guadaloupe-3.html

I think it will come down to their insurance requirements. I know that Lufthansa broke off an Airbus 340 subsiderary and staffed it with Lufthansa Cityline E-190 pilots. Yes, Captains too with no long haul experience. Source: mainline Lufthansa crew.

They will find more than enough FOs at the least.

Shindo
02-12-2017, 08:54 AM
Not true. The NEO LR has slightly less range then the 757 with winglets off long runways. It has even less capability then the 757 off shorter runways or high density altitudes. The current longest 757 flight I suspect is CDG to RDU. That flight is load restricted to 126 passengers and has diverted often.

It actually has more range. 500nm further than the 757t.

I heard the 321 LR Neo will hold about 150-160 seats with full set of biz class seats. It would be perfect out of places like JFK or PHL.

Flyby1206
02-12-2017, 09:29 AM
It actually has more range. 500nm further than the 757t.

I heard the 321 LR Neo will hold about 150-160 seats with full set of biz class seats. It would be perfect out of places like JFK or PHL.

Westbound in the winter will still have some problems, unless it's just NW Europe to NE-US.

50SeatsofGrey
02-12-2017, 10:02 AM
NAI is essentially a cleaner version of spirit and we will watch any hope of future wide body flying evaporate in an instant if we don't get ahead of the curve.

No it's not. This is a common sentiment but people who think this do not fully understand what is going on.

If Frontier, Allegiant, Spirit, or any US-flagged LCC started trans Atlantic ops, you could refer to them as just a version of Spirit that flies internationally. A flag of convenience carrier is nothing like an LCC.

Planedrive
02-12-2017, 10:17 AM
No it's not. This is a common sentiment but people who think this do not fully understand what is going on.

If Frontier, Allegiant, Spirit, or any US-flagged LCC started trans Atlantic ops, you could refer to them as just a version of Spirit that flies internationally. A flag of convenience carrier is nothing like an LCC.

so what is the real benefit of a flag of convenience airline? They skirt taxes pretty much? So instead of paying 35% corporate tax in the US the airline pays the 12% tax in Ireland. So if Trump cuts regulation and corporate tax they are on a level playing field again?

sailingfun
02-12-2017, 05:27 PM
It actually has more range. 500nm further than the 757t.

I heard the 321 LR Neo will hold about 150-160 seats with full set of biz class seats. It would be perfect out of places like JFK or PHL.

Again this is incorrect. The 757ER had a range of about 3950 miles without winglets. The winglets are quoted as adding 300 to 400 miles on top of that number. Airbus initially quoted the LR at just over 3700 miles. They have since boosted that to 4250 miles. Not sure how. You can check their website. The other point is the 757 can make that range off shorter runways and higher density altitudes meaning the range is more usable then the A321LR NEO. There are additional issues with the single axile maingear at the weights the LR pushes the aircraft to.
All these range numbers are available quickly online. Keep one other thing in mind. Published range is substantially longer then usable range in airlbe operations especially ETOPS over the pond where you have to deal with many different fuel issues and flying at sub optimum altitudes.

sailingfun
02-12-2017, 05:29 PM
It actually has more range. 500nm further than the 757t.

I heard the 321 LR Neo will hold about 150-160 seats with full set of biz class seats. It would be perfect out of places like JFK or PHL.

It hold about 185 in a two class with a 31 inch pitch in coach. All business is going to be 100 to 120 depending on seats.

NMuir
02-12-2017, 05:48 PM
Yes, and deregulation was going to destroy the industry too *eyeroll*

NMuir
02-12-2017, 05:48 PM
I don't see NAI being able to hire enough pilots to meet their mins. Bingo... the global pilot shortage is inhibiting expansion as it is.

Qotsaautopilot
02-12-2017, 05:51 PM
No it's not. This is a common sentiment but people who think this do not fully understand what is going on.

If Frontier, Allegiant, Spirit, or any US-flagged LCC started trans Atlantic ops, you could refer to them as just a version of Spirit that flies internationally. A flag of convenience carrier is nothing like an LCC.

I agree with you. You missed my point. I meant the product not the airline structure. I was also responding to a guy that commented on the scope at southwest and I was saying that at spirit we having nothing to prevent the airline from codesharing with NIA tomorrow and all widebody ULCC flying to them or similar instead of it being done by an American company with American(mostly) pilots on what I expect to be much much much higher compensation in our next contract. Scope is on codesharing is a hole we need to close no matter what but especially since this NAI experiment seems to not be being shot down by the guy that says "America first" all the time.

kevbo
02-12-2017, 06:28 PM
Yes, and deregulation was going to destroy the industry too *eyeroll*

No, it just turned our Cadillac shopping into a semi-annual affair.

tzskipper
02-13-2017, 07:00 AM
Yes, and deregulation was going to destroy the industry too *eyeroll*

Honest question; were you employed as a pilot from 1990-2010?

Skipper

galaxy flyer
02-13-2017, 07:57 AM
Better yet, from 1980 to 2000?

GF

GogglesPisano
02-13-2017, 08:47 AM
Better yet, from 1980 to 2000?

GF

He probably wasn't even born yet. He comes across as a millennial that read a book or two about libertarianism and is now a disciple of unfettered free markets. He's got it all figured out.

Watch he'll reply to this post with a link to logical fallacies.;)

tzskipper
02-13-2017, 08:57 AM
Braniff, Eastern, Pan American, TWA, gone. Job losses (the kind that paid reasonably well, not low pay bottom feeders), personal bankruptcy, divorce... Scam after scam of "new entrant" airlines propagating pain upon people trying to salvage careers.

Jesus, it took over 30 years for the industry to show any sign of financial stability and recovery.... The industry is finally healthy and then comments like that?

What an ahole.


Skipper

Grumble
02-14-2017, 10:22 PM
so what is the real benefit of a flag of convenience airline? They skirt taxes pretty much? So instead of paying 35% corporate tax in the US the airline pays the 12% tax in Ireland. So if Trump cuts regulation and corporate tax they are on a level playing field again?

The ignorance demonstrated here, this is the problem.


Yes, and deregulation was going to destroy the industry too *eyeroll*

Almost beat out the post above for most ignorant statement.

threeighteen
02-14-2017, 10:35 PM
I don't see NAI being able to hire enough pilots to meet their mins.

I do, sadly. The majors have been defecating all over regional airline pilots who have invested their own money and life heavily in this game to instead hire military guys who would otherwise pursue other careers or stay in the military to retire.

There are a lot of guys at the regionals looking to move up to a 737 and not getting the call. NAI will give them that call, and is capitalizing on their situation.

Planedrive
02-15-2017, 05:47 AM
The ignorance demonstrated here, this is the problem.




Almost beat out the post above for most ignorant statement.


That was a question...

iahflyr
02-15-2017, 08:13 AM
I don't see NAI being able to hire enough pilots to meet their mins. I'm guessing that it might be a ploy to claim hardship--and then import pilots to fill their cockpits.

I disagree. Name one major airline that cannot hire as many pilots as they would like.

None of them.

Even most regionals can still hire the amount of pilots they need, at far worse wages and work rules.

Andy
02-15-2017, 05:50 PM
The US airline industry is what now deploys the US military. Cripple the US airlines and you cripple your ability to deploy.

Very true. That's what CRAF is all about. The AF doesn't have enough organic airlift to support their own mission, much less the Army, Navy and Marine Corps.

The Part 121 charter outfits are kept in business with military charters during peacetime. Go to war and see how fast the CRAF gets activated.

On furlough 1, I had the 'pleasure' of working in TACC at Scott AFB. A lot of lift was contracted out internationally. More than a few Add to dictionary transports hauled troops/supplies for the US military.

I don't think that CRAF is very important anymore.

Csy Mon
02-15-2017, 06:19 PM
. On furlough 1, I had the 'pleasure' of working in TACC at Scott AFB. A lot of lift was contracted out internationally. More than a few Add to dictionary transports hauled troops/supplies for the US military.

Huh? Foreign charter carriers hauling US Troops or US military cargo?
Like Aeroflot or Namibia Airlines?
Nah, it don't sound right. Done my share of DOD charters, never seen a foreign carrier doing it, except hauling their own soldiers to or from a theatre.

Andy
02-15-2017, 06:39 PM
Huh? Foreign charter carriers hauling US Troops or US military cargo?
Like Aeroflot or Namibia Airlines?
Nah, it don't sound right. Done my share of DOD charters, never seen a foreign carrier doing it, except hauling their own soldiers to or from a theatre.

I worked plenty of Diplomatic clearances for foreign charters hauling US troops/cargo. They weren't nearly as 'reputable'/well known as Aeroflot.

See item 2f from this Defense Travel Regulation:
2. IAW DoD policy (DoDI 4500.57, Transportation and Traffic Management), the following priorities, in order of precedence, will be used for passenger airlift: a. USTRANSCOM-contracted airlift (e.g., Patriot Express channel airlift) must be used for OCONUS travel unless there is a documented negative critical mission impact. (1) Even if the service can be provided at less cost by a commercial air carrier. (2) Even if commercial air service is preferred by or is more convenient for the traveler. (3) OCONUS travel requests generated by the Defense Travel System must be routed through the TO prior to commercial carrier consideration to ensure USTRANSCOM seats are fully utilized. b. Scheduled commercial air service contracted through the GSA Airline CPP Contract. c. Other U.S. CRAF carriers. d. DoD-approved, non-CRAF U.S. flag carriers. e. Scheduled service on U.S. air carriers that are neither DoD-approved nor -disapproved (for individual travel only). f. DoD-approved foreign flag carriers. g. Scheduled service on foreign air carriers that are neither DoD-approved nor -disapproved (for individual travel only).

http://www.ustranscom.mil/dtr/part-i/dtr_part_i_103.pdf

9easy
02-17-2017, 12:28 AM
I disagree. Name one major airline that cannot hire as many pilots as they would like.

None of them.

Even most regionals can still hire the amount of pilots they need, at far worse wages and work rules.

The best thing we have going for us is the requirement to get a JAA license after 1 year. I doubt anyone except the most desperate and dedicated will do that. Not to mention the more stringent European medical requirements.

mainlineAF
02-17-2017, 05:18 AM
Huh? Foreign charter carriers hauling US Troops or US military cargo?

Like Aeroflot or Namibia Airlines?

Nah, it don't sound right. Done my share of DOD charters, never seen a foreign carrier doing it, except hauling their own soldiers to or from a theatre.



CRAF will not prevent the repeal of cabotage restrictions. They'll argue the repeal will increase Boeing sales and make tickets cheaper. Game over.

kevbo
02-17-2017, 01:52 PM
I do, sadly. The majors have been defecating all over regional airline pilots who have invested their own money and life heavily in this game to instead hire military guys who would otherwise pursue other careers or stay in the military to retire.

There are a lot of guys at the regionals looking to move up to a 737 and not getting the call. NAI will give them that call, and is capitalizing on their situation.

Without honoring national seniority, the majors are just a country club. Unions should have instituted a strict flow policy when regionals began to grow. It's unfortunate that division is fostered by greed and smugness of the senior players.

sulkair
02-17-2017, 03:05 PM
I do, sadly. The majors have been defecating all over regional airline pilots who have invested their own money and life heavily in this game to instead hire military guys who would otherwise pursue other careers or stay in the military to retire.

There are a lot of guys at the regionals looking to move up to a 737 and not getting the call. NAI will give them that call, and is capitalizing on their situation.

I suppose there will be some regional pilots that would go to NAI, but I bet it's a really small percentage.

Regional pilots know what it feels like to be undervalued, underpaid, and overworked. Looking at what NAI offers will make most of them nauseous. Going there is a moral decision that most regional guys couldn't stomach. I bet. I hope.

adebord
02-17-2017, 10:16 PM
I suppose there will be some regional pilots that would go to NAI, but I bet it's a really small percentage.

Regional pilots know what it feels like to be undervalued, underpaid, and overworked. Looking at what NAI offers will make most of them nauseous. Going there is a moral decision that most regional guys couldn't stomach. I bet. I hope.

They are already there. NAI is bigger airplanes and better overnights.

Half wing
02-18-2017, 02:47 AM
They are already there. NAI is bigger airplanes and better overnights.

For less pay and more time away from home. Shiny Jet syndrome is bad for some.

Bellanca
02-18-2017, 05:59 PM
I do, sadly. The majors have been defecating all over regional airline pilots who have invested their own money and life heavily in this game to instead hire military guys who would otherwise pursue other careers or stay in the military to retire.

There are a lot of guys at the regionals looking to move up to a 737 and not getting the call. NAI will give them that call, and is capitalizing on their situation.

This.

I was just flying with a captain who was saying he didn't think the street captain thing at NAI would be that bad of a deal. I asked him if he v would be worried about getting blacklisted by the majors, and his reply "I have 10,000 hours, I've been flying their passengers in and out of the same airports for 12 years. I've done job fairs, paid hundreds to have my applications reviewed, etc. Apparently they don't want me anyways. I don't want to sit here and watch this airline go under like my last one in a couple years when the 50 seat contracts aren't renewed." And I know there's other guys out there that feel the same way. They feel like they've played the major's game long enough. They are on their second, third, fourth regional airline, and they are watching the volatility of the regionals only continue to get worse, and they want out, and NAI looks better than having to jump and start over at yet another regional.

jcountry
02-18-2017, 06:19 PM
This.

I was just flying with a captain who was saying he didn't think the street captain thing at NAI would be that bad of a deal. I asked him if he v would be worried about getting blacklisted by the majors, and his reply "I have 10,000 hours, I've been flying their passengers in and out of the same airports for 12 years. I've done job fairs, paid hundreds to have my applications reviewed, etc. Apparently they don't want me anyways. I don't want to sit here and watch this airline go under like my last one in a couple years when the 50 seat contracts aren't renewed." And I know there's other guys out there that feel the same way. They feel like they've played the major's game long enough. They are on their second, third, fourth regional airline, and they are watching the volatility of the regionals only continue to get worse, and they want out, and NAI looks better than having to jump and start over at yet another regional.


Right.

Tell them to get back to you after a couple of years of no rest regs and no representation.

Let them know how comfortable it will be when some jerk is telling them "you take this plane-with xxxxx problem, or your ass is fired."

They need to really think about this one. Really consider all the implications.

mainlineAF
02-18-2017, 06:22 PM
This.



I was just flying with a captain who was saying he didn't think the street captain thing at NAI would be that bad of a deal. I asked him if he v would be worried about getting blacklisted by the majors, and his reply "I have 10,000 hours, I've been flying their passengers in and out of the same airports for 12 years. I've done job fairs, paid hundreds to have my applications reviewed, etc. Apparently they don't want me anyways. I don't want to sit here and watch this airline go under like my last one in a couple years when the 50 seat contracts aren't renewed." And I know there's other guys out there that feel the same way. They feel like they've played the major's game long enough. They are on their second, third, fourth regional airline, and they are watching the volatility of the regionals only continue to get worse, and they want out, and NAI looks better than having to jump and start over at yet another regional.



There's more regional pilots than there are jobs available at majors. Not everyone can get called right away. But go ahead and use that excuse to go fly at NAI lol.

BlueJuicer17
02-18-2017, 06:58 PM
There's more regional pilots than there are jobs available at majors. Not everyone can get called right away. But go ahead and use that excuse to go fly at NAI lol.

I heard in the crew room that NAI had enough applicants to be selective for their 787 FL crew base.

Bellanca
02-18-2017, 08:59 PM
There's more regional pilots than there are jobs available at majors. Not everyone can get called right away. But go ahead and use that excuse to go fly at NAI lol.

I love how I give an example of a regional captain that has over 10k hours and you act like he should be OK that he hasn't been called 'right away' even though he's been more than qualified for years to go to places like DAL, United, FedEx, etc. There's quite a few guys at my company with 8000-10,000+ hours that have been waiting quite some time for the call. Meanwhile, we are looking at the fact that we probably won't have aircraft to fly in the not too distant future as 50 seats get parked. I can't say I blame these guys for exploring their options at NAI at this point. This isn't their first choice, but many have had apps in at the majors for years, and feel that they may never get the call.

Then there is the other cohort of pilots with shiny jet syndrome. There's one regional that pays significantly less than every other company, in some cases less than half, yet this company is still managing to hire and fill (I use that word loosely, because none of the regionals are really 'filling' classes anymore) classes just because United keeps sending them shiny new 175s. To these guys, going to NAI is going to be a logical step up from their current company.

MDdoc
02-19-2017, 05:56 AM
I heard in the crew room that NAI had enough applicants to be selective for their 787 FL crew base.

Maybe so but, the 787 operation in FLL doesn't fall under the NAI flag I believe, but instead NAS, which is flagged in Norway and not a FOC.

mainlineAF
02-19-2017, 06:33 AM
I love how I give an example of a regional captain that has over 10k hours and you act like he should be OK that he hasn't been called 'right away' even though he's been more than qualified for years to go to places like DAL, United, FedEx, etc. There's quite a few guys at my company with 8000-10,000+ hours that have been waiting quite some time for the call. Meanwhile, we are looking at the fact that we probably won't have aircraft to fly in the not too distant future as 50 seats get parked. I can't say I blame these guys for exploring their options at NAI at this point. This isn't their first choice, but many have had apps in at the majors for years, and feel that they may never get the call.

Then there is the other cohort of pilots with shiny jet syndrome. There's one regional that pays significantly less than every other company, in some cases less than half, yet this company is still managing to hire and fill (I use that word loosely, because none of the regionals are really 'filling' classes anymore) classes just because United keeps sending them shiny new 175s. To these guys, going to NAI is going to be a logical step up from their current company.



How do you know he has a degree, no DUIs or any other skeletons? People won't be upfront about the bad stuff, they'll just ***** they don't get a call.

No skeletons and a degree? Right now the majors want people who are check airman/sim pilots/ anything except just a line pilot. Need to volunteer and have all that jazz. I agree it's dumb but they set the rules. Either play by them and get hired or just fly the line and complain.

Broncofan
02-19-2017, 07:53 AM
This.

I was just flying with a captain who was saying he didn't think the street captain thing at NAI would be that bad of a deal. I asked him if he v would be worried about getting blacklisted by the majors, and his reply "I have 10,000 hours, I've been flying their passengers in and out of the same airports for 12 years. I've done job fairs, paid hundreds to have my applications reviewed, etc. Apparently they don't want me anyways. I don't want to sit here and watch this airline go under like my last one in a couple years when the 50 seat contracts aren't renewed." And I know there's other guys out there that feel the same way. They feel like they've played the major's game long enough. They are on their second, third, fourth regional airline, and they are watching the volatility of the regionals only continue to get worse, and they want out, and NAI looks better than having to jump and start over at yet another regional.

The pay really isnt any more than a regional from what i see.. i heard something along the lines of 5000 a month for FOs and 10000 for captains. I cant imagine too many people leaving QOL and current pay to go to start all over at NAI. The only plus to going to NAI from what i see is the hige amount of vacation and sick leave they give you.