Airline Pilot Forums

Airline Pilot Forums was designed to be a community where working airline pilots can share ideas and information about the aviation field. In the forum you will find information about major and regional airline carriers, career training, interview and job seeker help, finance, and living the airline pilot lifestyle.




globalexpress
02-13-2017, 09:05 PM
Was this (https://www.rishworthaviation.com/news/88/breaking-news-rishworth-aviation-recruiting-norwegian-b737-non-type-rated-and-type-rated-pilots-for-b737max-operated-atlantic-services.aspx?utm_source=Rishworth+Aviation+Februa ry&utm_campaign=9b1504f6b2-20170210_NLH_B737_Recruitment&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_ed7fc54f55-9b1504f6b2-93493785&ct=t(20170210_NLH_B737_Recruitment) already covered on another thread?

Captain
$8500/month basic salary
$1000/month per diem

10 days off per month (minimum?)

First Offier
$4700/month basic salary
$1000/month per diem

10 days off per month (minimum?)

Yikes!

However, they'll get tons of applicants, no doubt.


Salukipilot4590
02-13-2017, 09:15 PM
Good lord here we go!

I forsee Miami air, Xtra, and Swift FOs signing up asap.

:/

Beretta01
02-14-2017, 12:07 AM
Who is updating the jumpseat protection list?


skater3260
02-14-2017, 12:36 AM
God, that makes our ULCC concessionary payscale look good. At least ours is being negotiated up.

Xtreme87
02-14-2017, 01:02 AM
Why not just stay at a regional? More days off and travel benefits.

hockeypilot44
02-14-2017, 01:11 AM
This is to fly a 787 international. At the legacies, these are the higest paying positions. If this catches on, this will be the max salary in our industry. After seeing how little regional pilots make and the fact that the regionals are able to fill seats, I have no doubt there will be pilots willing to work at these rates.

NEDude
02-14-2017, 01:41 AM
This is to fly a 787 international. At the legacies, these are the higest paying positions. If this catches on, this will be the max salary in our industry. After seeing how little regional pilots make and the fact that the regionals are able to fill seats, I have no doubt there will be pilots willing to work at these rates.

SWF and PVD are 737s for Norwegian Air International. The FLL base will be 787s for Norwegian Air Shuttle.

hockeypilot44
02-14-2017, 03:23 AM
SWF and PVD are 737s for Norwegian Air International. The FLL base will be 787s for Norwegian Air Shuttle.

Aren't they paying the same for both?

NEDude
02-14-2017, 03:33 AM
Aren't they paying the same for both?

No idea....

50SeatsofGrey
02-14-2017, 03:48 AM
Who is updating the jumpseat protection list?

It's a foreign flag carrier, you can't jumpseat on them and they can't jumpseat on you.

turbojet28
02-14-2017, 04:31 AM
Employed by OSM Aviation

www.osmaviation.com

This is some scary stuff.

WHACKMASTER
02-14-2017, 04:46 AM
SWF and PVD are 737s for Norwegian Air International. The FLL base will be 787s for Norwegian Air Shuttle.

Grossly lowering the bar in either case.

FL370esq
02-14-2017, 06:09 AM
It's a foreign flag carrier, you can't jumpseat on them and they can't jumpseat on you.

Cockpit jumpseat no....but many foreign flag carriers have reciprocal jumpseat agreements with US carriers. Just have to have an open seat in the cabin - but, then again, how many open seats will there be at those low fares?

globalexpress
02-14-2017, 06:19 AM
This massive undercutting in the prevailing wage that we're seeing with NAI is EXACTLY what happened in the late 90's and early 2000's with the growth of low cost carriers in the U.S...... and we saw what happened with that. The legacy carriers, over time, as the LCCs like JetBlue, Valujet/Airtran, Southwest, etc., grew, were dragged DOWN to the new domestic narrowbody compensation (40-50% pay cuts, no pension) and workrules (i.e. few work rules or FARs) created by the upstart and rapidly growing LCCs. It's only recently, after 15 years, that we're even approaching where we were before a decade and a half ago.

The men and women who apply to NAI will be on this forum. These are the arguments that you will hear, just like I heard 15 years ago from the JetBlue guy (for example) that went to work there for hourly rates that were less than half of our narrowbody rates, no pension, no workrules- watch:

"This new NAI operation is just starting out, they can't afford to pay a prevailing wage yet"

"What do YOU care about NAI? You're a pilot at Legacy Brand X which is huge. There's no way our little operation will hurt you."

"ALPA sucks because (insert excuse here, they furloughed me, they let the regional airlines exist, they screwed me on my seniority integration, they let my regional go out of business, etc., etc.) so why should I care about them?"

"Yeah but in a few years our wages will go up, you'll see"

There will be plenty of other excuses. There will be rationalizing, hemming and hawing, and multi-page threads about how NAI and the copy cats that will inevitably come along, aren't doing anything wrong. The NAI pilots will be in a honeymoon stage where they will see rapid growth, upgrades, and everything will be great. They'll be on here telling you so.

After a while, management will do something to **** them off, they'll start looking around and they'll realize just how badly they're being underpaid and how poorly they're being treated. "Hey, we need to unionize!" They'll get a union on the property, spend a few years trying to get that initial contract going, and eventually come up with a "big raise" that will be slightly below the prevailing wage and feel like they've had a victory.

Between all of that, if NAI and the inevitable copycats are successful, we'll see North Atlantic yields trashed, reorganization of its competitors (we already know what that means for us), and general ugliness until the situation stabilizes and a new UULCC comes along and starts the process all over again.

Sound familiar? It does to me.

blockplus
02-14-2017, 06:31 AM
They dont work for nai so if they unionized at osm then nai will just make osm2 and as personal contracts expire they will have osm2 supply pilots. Osm is a staffing services company, section 1 scope: all work performed by osm will be flown by osm pilots.... see how a union will never work.

Shindo
02-14-2017, 07:39 AM
Don't plan on commuting, you won't be welcome on my jump seat.

intrepidcv11
02-14-2017, 08:06 AM
Within the job description they claim Providence is well known as being one of the best places to live in the US. Billy Costigan from Southie misled so many. Why would you ever commute if you could live in such a wonderful place?

Riverside
02-14-2017, 08:08 AM
Don't plan on commuting, you won't be welcome on my jump seat.

Didn't know you own the jumpseat?
Second learn the jumpseat rules concerning international carriers.

globalexpress
02-14-2017, 08:16 AM
Within the job description they claim Providence is well known as being one of the best places to live in the US. Billy Costigan from Southie misled so many. Why would you ever commute if you could live in such a wonderful place?

Peter Griffin recommends Quahog if you are PVD based with NAI.

https://mfi-miami.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/peter-griffin_400x400.jpg

WHACKMASTER
02-14-2017, 08:30 AM
Didn't know you own the jumpseat?
Second learn the jumpseat rules concerning international carriers.


If he's the Captain assigned to the flight he/she DOES own the jumpseat. Is this a revelation to you or something? :confused:

CousinEddie
02-14-2017, 08:34 AM
Is the picture at the beginning of the article a bit symbolic?

http://www.economist.com/news/business/21576672-bjorn-kjos-norwegian-air-shuttles-boss-success-may-depend-ruthlessness-here-come

PotatoChip
02-14-2017, 08:49 AM
JEEZUS H....
Only page three and tons of misinformation, nonsense and threats.
Do everyone a favor, before you get all bent out of shape over this, actually know what you are talking about.
Norwegian will not be in your jumpseat. They will not be commuting on your metal. If they do, it will be because they bought a full fare ticket. Are you going to deny them then? Good luck with that.
Undercutting everyone? Hardly. They pay more than Sun Country CA's Year 1-4 (which is an ALPA carrier!!) and more than Miami Air CA's year 1-5! (Another union represented carrier, IBT). So please, GMAFB.
I'm not applying, and I don't know what this change in the future, but please, do a little research before you post nonsense.

teddyballgame
02-14-2017, 09:29 AM
"ALPA sucks because (insert excuse here, they furloughed me, they let the regional airlines exist, they screwed me on my seniority integration, they let my regional go out of business, etc., etc.) so why should I care about them?"


This particular point has historical resonance.

One of the things that "saved" Frank Lorenzo in the 1983 TXI/CAL strike was the surplus of pilots on the marketplace at the time.

In particular, the former Braniff pilots, who were the first group to have had a major airline sink out from under them after deregulation (through absolutely no fault of their own).

Although some had been lucky enough to catch on with other majors (like original Piedmont), or at least find other gainful employment, many others had been out of work 16 months by the time the opportunity to go to Continental -- for many, as off-the-street 727 captains -- presented itself.

So, by that time, the "What's ALPA done for me lately?" sentiment was fairly prevalent.

Even then-ALPA president Hank Duffy conceded years later that, "The Braniff pilots were pushing each other out of the way to get in". (Source: "Flying The Line II", Chapter 14.)

Although most of us certainly don't condone their actions, it doesn't take too much introspection to at least see their point of view, at the time.

When it comes to the piloting profession, never underestimate the power of "Me".

David Puddy
02-14-2017, 09:42 AM
JEEZUS H....
Only page three and tons of misinformation, nonsense and threats.
Do everyone a favor, before you get all bent out of shape over this, actually know what you are talking about.
Norwegian will not be in your jumpseat. They will not be commuting on your metal. If they do, it will be because they bought a full fare ticket. Are you going to deny them then? Good luck with that.
Undercutting everyone? Hardly. They pay more than Sun Country CA's Year 1-4 (which is an ALPA carrier!!) and more than Miami Air CA's year 1-5! (Another union represented carrier, IBT). So please, GMAFB.
I'm not applying, and I don't know what this change in the future, but please, do a little research before you post nonsense.

I completely agree with this. How much does Miami, Swift or Sun Country pay their dedicated pilots? Not much relative to the legacies! How about focusing some attention on those low-paying operators as well?

To be clear, I am not defending the NAI wage levels - they are low for the aircraft type and base. However, given their cheap operating model ($69 one way fares to Europe????), those wage levels don't surprise me that much... NAI/UK may work for some people, but with that ultra-low cost model where every dollar counts, high salaries should not be expected.

Andy
02-14-2017, 09:56 AM
JEEZUS H....
Only page three and tons of misinformation, nonsense and threats.
Do everyone a favor, before you get all bent out of shape over this, actually know what you are talking about.
Norwegian will not be in your jumpseat. They will not be commuting on your metal. If they do, it will be because they bought a full fare ticket. Are you going to deny them then? Good luck with that.
Undercutting everyone? Hardly. They pay more than Sun Country CA's Year 1-4 (which is an ALPA carrier!!) and more than Miami Air CA's year 1-5! (Another union represented carrier, IBT). So please, GMAFB.
I'm not applying, and I don't know what this change in the future, but please, do a little research before you post nonsense.

Thank you for self-appointing yourself as the thread monitor. Did you get any response from OSM yet? I take it you've filled out an app there.

Andy
02-14-2017, 09:57 AM
I completely agree with this. How much does Miami, Swift or Sun Country pay their dedicated pilots? Not much relative to the legacies! How about focusing some attention on those low-paying operators as well?

Precisely, what are you expecting pilots to do about those operators?

Riverside
02-14-2017, 10:07 AM
If he's the Captain assigned to the flight he/she DOES own the jumpseat. Is this a revelation to you or something? :confused:

Last time I checked the company owns the plane. If you want to start a jumpseat war be my guest.

CBreezy
02-14-2017, 10:29 AM
Last time I checked the company owns the plane. If you want to start a jumpseat war be my guest.

The company owns the plane and the revenue seats. The Captain owns the Jumpseat. A Jumpseat agreement is a 4 way agreement between the unions and companies as to who is allowed to ride in the Jumpseat. The only people who can't be denied are company-assigned personnel and Feds.

Why do you think the company would care if someone denied a Jumpseat to a OAL guy?

Half wing
02-14-2017, 10:31 AM
Last time I checked the company owns the plane. If you want to start a jumpseat war be my guest.

Uh, no. Captain has final say who gets or doesn't get the jump seat.

Andy
02-14-2017, 10:38 AM
Last time I checked the company owns the plane. If you want to start a jumpseat war be my guest.

There needs to be a reciprocal jumpseat agreement first. I don't show any agreements in place with NAI and I don't expect to see one anytime soon.

But seriously, jumpseat war with NAI? IF (big if) there's a reciprocal jumpseat agreement with NAI, you can bet on NAI pilots getting denied a ride frequently.

Shindo
02-14-2017, 10:58 AM
Didn't know you own the jumpseat?
Second learn the jumpseat rules concerning international carriers.

On my airplane I do Own the jumpseat. I doubt many of the bottom feeders that will work for this outfit will live in PVD.

Shindo
02-14-2017, 10:59 AM
Last time I checked the company owns the plane. If you want to start a jump seat war be my guest.

Yeah I doubt there is anyone in this country that will need to jump seat on a 737 max across the pond to commute from pvd, so it's a war I'm more than happy to wage.

PotatoChip
02-14-2017, 11:05 AM
There needs to be a reciprocal jumpseat agreement first. I don't show any agreements in place with NAI and I don't expect to see one anytime soon.

But seriously, jumpseat war with NAI? IF (big if) there's a reciprocal jumpseat agreement with NAI, you can bet on NAI pilots getting denied a ride frequently.

Will somebody please do me a huge favor and name a FOREIGN airline that has reciprocal jumpseat agreements in the US? I honestly know of zero.

PotatoChip
02-14-2017, 11:07 AM
Thank you for self-appointing yourself as the thread monitor. Did you get any response from OSM yet? I take it you've filled out an app there.

I'm sorry for asking people to stop posting LIES and flat out ignorance and for trying to actually post accurate information. I stated I am not applying. If you don't believe me, great.

Andy
02-14-2017, 11:10 AM
Will somebody please do me a huge favor and name a FOREIGN airline that has reciprocal jumpseat agreements in the US? I honestly know of zero.

Air Canada
Air Jamaica

That's two of the first three names on this jumpseat list: Jumpseat Information > Jumpseat Resources > Airline Jumpseat Policies (http://www.jumpseatinfo.org/AirlineJumpseatPolicies/tabid/1592/Default.aspx)
I'd go on, but the first two examples prove the point.

Will you please do everyone a favor and admit you're wrong?

PotatoChip
02-14-2017, 11:13 AM
Air Canada
Air Jamaica

That's two of the first three names on this jumpseat list: Jumpseat Information > Jumpseat Resources > Airline Jumpseat Policies (http://www.jumpseatinfo.org/AirlineJumpseatPolicies/tabid/1592/Default.aspx)
I'd go on, but the first two examples prove the point.

Will you please do everyone a favor and admit you're wrong?

You can't be wrong if you are asking a question.

GogglesPisano
02-14-2017, 11:14 AM
Riverside: How long have you been an airline pilot? How can you not know how jumpseating works?

Andy
02-14-2017, 11:29 AM
You can't be wrong if you are asking a question.

Nice; this wasn't the first time you made the inference that foreign carrier pilots can't jumpseat on US metal. Phrasing it as a question this time - LOL!

It took me all of ten seconds using the google machine to find the correct answer.

Starlifter
02-14-2017, 11:35 AM
Air Canada
Air Jamaica

That's two of the first three names on this jumpseat list: Jumpseat Information > Jumpseat Resources > Airline Jumpseat Policies (http://www.jumpseatinfo.org/AirlineJumpseatPolicies/tabid/1592/Default.aspx)
I'd go on, but the first two examples prove the point.

Will you please do everyone a favor and admit you're wrong?

Austrian Airlines

Arvik
02-14-2017, 11:41 AM
They dont work for nai so if they unionized at osm then nai will just make osm2 and as personal contracts expire they will have osm2 supply pilots. Osm is a staffing services company, section 1 scope: all work performed by osm will be flown by osm pilots.... see how a union will never work.

Norwegian tried that line of reasoning when the flight attendants tried to unionize, and it didn't get very far. They do work for Norwegian as far as the law is concerned when it comes to unionization.

PotatoChip
02-14-2017, 11:41 AM
Nice; this wasn't the first time you made the inference that foreign carrier pilots can't jumpseat on US metal. Phrasing it as a question this time - LOL!

It took me all of ten seconds using the google machine to find the correct answer.

I thought otherwise. I honestly didn't know, and thus asked. I even stated I didn't know. That being said, it is still only with a reciprocal agreement AND in the cabin, correct? I doubt this will ever come up with NAI if that is the case.

If they somehow do get an agreement, with ALPA unions no less, are captains going to deny the cabin seat request because they are underpaid? Or because they work at an airline where the management legally based the company out of Ireland, hired US pilots, and offered them clear T & C's? If it's the former, I guess those captains should deny all Sun Country, Miami Air, and heck, pretty much all regional pilots, too. If it's the latter, maybe they should spend more time writing their congressional and senatorial leaders.
I am NOT applying to NAI, I have zero desire for only 10 days off and no set roster. I'm slightly concerned over the flag of convenience Ireland is setting up, not that NAI is taking advantage of it. Denying jumpseat might sound great, but it is going to accomplish next to nothing other than making captains feel good about themselves.

David Puddy
02-14-2017, 11:45 AM
Precisely, what are you expecting pilots to do about those operators?

That's the point - you can't do much. They are smaller operators and anyone flying for them should not expect UAL or DAL wages. Instead, use them as a stepping stone if you can on the way to the legacies...

Lambourne
02-14-2017, 11:50 AM
I thought otherwise. I honestly didn't

If they somehow do get an agreement, with ALPA unions no less, are captains going to deny the cabin seat request because they are underpaid? Or because they work at an airline where the management legally based the company out of Ireland, hired US pilots, and offered them clear T & C's? .

Yes I would deny them a cabin seat. It's still a jumpseat agreement that got you that cabin seat.

I highly suspect no ALPA carrier will have an agreement with a carrier like NAI.

PotatoChip
02-14-2017, 11:50 AM
Air Canada
Air Jamaica

That's two of the first three names on this jumpseat list: Jumpseat Information > Jumpseat Resources > Airline Jumpseat Policies (http://www.jumpseatinfo.org/AirlineJumpseatPolicies/tabid/1592/Default.aspx)
I'd go on, but the first two examples prove the point.

Will you please do everyone a favor and admit you're wrong?

I looked at this list, and other than Air Jamaica, every single carrier was from the US or Canada. That was my point, I know of no carriers from Asia, Europe, South America etc with agreements. Someone mentioned Austrian, I had no idea about that. Who do they have agreements with?

PotatoChip
02-14-2017, 11:55 AM
Yes I would deny them a cabin seat. It's still a jumpseat agreement that got you that cabin seat.

I highly suspect no ALPA carrier will have an agreement with a carrier like NAI.

Which is exactly right, and why this is funny...
I highly doubt any ALPA carrier will agree to a reciprocal with NAI, yet this and many other threads are filled with ALPA pilots threatening and shouting how they will deny the j/s. So, on one hand these ALPA pilots support ALPA, but if they have reciprocal from ALPA they are going to take matters into their own hands. Okay.

Instead of posturing and making threats, how about pilots act like professionals and work with their local representation to ensure they don't write a reciprocal agreement with NAI, if that is even possible. That would be much more constructive.

Andy
02-14-2017, 12:33 PM
That's the point - you can't do much. They are smaller operators and anyone flying for them should not expect UAL or DAL wages. Instead, use them as a stepping stone if you can on the way to the legacies...

There are acceptable stepping stones and questionable stepping stones.

As far as I know, all majors still have a line Captain involved in individual interviews.

2StgTurbine
02-14-2017, 01:02 PM
As far as I know, all majors still have a line Captain involved in individual interviews.

Mainline management is also against flag of convince operations, so even the HR people on the panel won't like seeing NAI on a resume.

galaxy flyer
02-14-2017, 01:10 PM
Those wages are absurd. I know Lear guys making more, by a log in some cases--50% more. Loads of large cabin bizjet guys are easily making twice that, one I now is almost three times that. Who will work there?

GF

2StgTurbine
02-14-2017, 01:38 PM
Who will work there?

All the pilots making less than $8500/$4700 a month with 10 days or less a month off.

PotatoChip
02-14-2017, 01:45 PM
Those wages are absurd. I know Lear guys making more, by a log in some cases--50% more. Loads of large cabin bizjet guys are easily making twice that, one I now is almost three times that. Who will work there?

GF

They are absurd. However....

They are more than other US union-member pilots currently make on the same equipment. And they are $40,000+ more a year than many regional airline captains make a year. As bad as it is, I think they'll find pilots.

Riverside
02-14-2017, 02:47 PM
Riverside: How long have you been an airline pilot? How can you not know how jumpseating works?

4 years. And yes, I do commute.

marcal
02-14-2017, 03:04 PM
Once again, this is no different then when Cathay Pacific hired USA based pilots through a Canadian shell company to fly for a HKG registered airline. And the pay to start was $62,500/yr to fly a B747-400.

Major airlines in the US DGAF what airline it says on the resume. If you know the right people, you have experience, your resume will go in a stack and you'll be hired. We've seen this with Gulfstream, Go-Jets, etc. They get hired left and right.

As long as we don't enter a prolonged war, have a massive recession, or have the retirement age lifted, the US legacies will be hiring en masse and that is the number one driver of pilot wages and recruitment throughout the industry.

GogglesPisano
02-14-2017, 04:23 PM
4 years. And yes, I do commute.

Okay. Then how can you not understand that you jumpseat at the captain's discretion?

Riverside
02-14-2017, 04:36 PM
Okay. Then how can you not understand that you jumpseat at the captain's discretion?

Show me how I don't understand.

Andy
02-14-2017, 04:36 PM
Mainline management is also against flag of convince operations, so even the HR people on the panel won't like seeing NAI on a resume.

Exactly; I was trying to tiptoe around the blackballing subject gingerly. If people even think that flying for NAI won't have future repercussions, they have no idea how small this business can be. I just ran into a pilot last weekend I haven't seen in ~15 years.

And putting down that you were a contract pilot for OSM won't work either; people have LONG memories.

All the pilots making less than $8500/$4700 a month with 10 days or less a month off.

That's where those making less than that amount monthly have to think very carefully about what happens to them down the road. NAI is not an acceptable stepping stone.


PotatoChip, as far as the jumpseat goes, you asked the question about any foreign carrier. I posted a link that listed foreign carriers. Europe/Asia/outside of NA? No, I don't know of any reciprocal jumpseat agreements with carriers outside of North America.

PotatoChip
02-14-2017, 04:43 PM
PotatoChip, as far as the jumpseat goes, you asked the question about any foreign carrier. I posted a link that listed foreign carriers. Europe/Asia/outside of NA? No, I don't know of any reciprocal jumpseat agreements with carriers outside of North America.

Which is why NAI won't either. That was my point.

GogglesPisano
02-14-2017, 04:54 PM
Show me how I don't understand.


Riverside: "Didn't know you own the jumpseat?"

If the captain can deny the jumpseat to anyone (other than a Fed) then how can he not effectively "own" it for the duration of his command on that flight?

Andy
02-14-2017, 05:16 PM
Which is why NAI won't either. That was my point.

That's not what you 'asked.' A small amount of research on your part would have resulted in a more correctly phrased question.

Will somebody please do me a huge favor and name a FOREIGN airline that has reciprocal jumpseat agreements in the US? I honestly know of zero.




Riverside: "Didn't know you own the jumpseat?"

If the captain can deny the jumpseat to anyone (other than a Fed) then how can he not effectively "own" it for the duration of his command on that flight?

Goggles, Riverside's playing the semantics game with you. Of course the Captain 'owns' the jumpseat.

GogglesPisano
02-14-2017, 05:22 PM
Goggles, Riverside's playing the semantics game with you. Of course the Captain 'owns' the jumpseat.

Agreed. He made an outlandish claim. He was called on it. Now he's hiding behind semantics.

Can't wait to see more wiggling.

Hilltopper89
02-14-2017, 05:23 PM
I doubt any maninline carrier will even call NAI pilots for an interview. Consider that before you sell out.

jcountry
02-14-2017, 05:25 PM
And don't forget that these guys don't have 117 regulations. God, I can't imagine flying some ****ed up trans Atlantic red-eyes back to back with 10 days off.

I wouldn't do that crap. I would make more driving Uber with at least twice the days off.

galaxy flyer
02-14-2017, 05:41 PM
EASA rules are at least as stringent as FAR 117. Just sayin'

GF

PotatoChip
02-14-2017, 06:22 PM
EASA rules are at least as stringent as FAR 117. Just sayin'

GF

These guys don't know that... anything from outside the US isn't as safe!!!
Not surprised at all by such an ignorant comment.

threeighteen
02-14-2017, 07:12 PM
I doubt any maninline carrier will even call NAI pilots for an interview. Consider that before you sell out.

Mainline will hire an NAI pilot over a regional guy. Better to cannibalize NAI's pilot group than cannibalize that of your own feed.

Regional guys with 10-15 years flying RJs aren't getting phone calls while guys from the military with no airline experience at all are getting scooped up with less than 3000 hours. The major airlines are trying to drain the military and all other sources dry before they start wiping out their own feed.

Andy
02-14-2017, 07:14 PM
These guys don't know that... anything from outside the US isn't as safe!!!
Not surprised at all by such an ignorant comment.

Stop trying to sound like you know anything. You didn't know squat about jumpseating and now you're pretending to be an expert on flying/rest rules for all ICAO countries?

Half wing
02-14-2017, 07:16 PM
Show me how I don't understand.

It's also a safety thing. Even if they could jump seat, no way would I feel safe with some shady NAI character sitting right behind me.

Andy
02-14-2017, 07:19 PM
Mainline will hire an NAI pilot over a regional guy. Better to cannibalize NAI's pilot group than cannibalize that of your own feed.

Regional guys with 10-15 years flying RJs aren't getting phone calls while guys from the military with no airline experience at all are getting scooped up with less than 3000 hours. The major airlines are trying to drain the military and all other sources dry before they start wiping out their own feed.

You don't know jacksquat. If you somehow think that NAI's a shortcut to the majors, good luck with that. Those that choose that route will likely end up being contract pilots, wandering aimlessly around the globe for the rest of their careers.

Sam York
02-14-2017, 07:26 PM
We should band together on this board. 20 of us per month should apply and those that get hired don't show for class. F with their staffing.

wilco811
02-14-2017, 07:42 PM
So $8500 a month for 787 CA would this figure be gross income before tax? Does anyone know? I wonder if the employer contributes part of the taxes for social security like US employers do? Otherwise the pilot will need to shell out a flat 15% for the self-employment tax also. If this is the case this contract gig might be the worst paying contract gig ever!

Half wing
02-14-2017, 07:43 PM
Mainline will hire an NAI pilot over a regional guy. Better to cannibalize NAI's pilot group than cannibalize that of your own feed.

Regional guys with 10-15 years flying RJs aren't getting phone calls while guys from the military with no airline experience at all are getting scooped up with less than 3000 hours. The major airlines are trying to drain the military and all other sources dry before they start wiping out their own feed.

They would rather cannibalize from the other big three's regional feed because they know the pilot has been well vetted unlike NAI pilots. I'm glad there are pilots on the hiring board to stop these guys from getting in. Your comments about military pilots show your lack of knowledge.

BlueJuicer17
02-14-2017, 08:09 PM
They said a Go-Jet pilot would never get hired at a Legacy.

threeighteen
02-14-2017, 08:35 PM
They would rather cannibalize from the other big three's regional feed because they know the pilot has been well vetted unlike NAI pilots.


Having a pulse and fogging a mirror (the current requirement to get a regional job) makes someone well vetted?

Your comments about military pilots show your lack of knowledge.

elaborate. please.

How does bombing hospitals in Afghanistan make someone more qualified to move people from NYC to LA than the guy who's actually been doing it for the last 10 years? :confused:

Jimmykool
02-14-2017, 08:53 PM
This massive undercutting in the prevailing wage that we're seeing with NAI is EXACTLY what happened in the late 90's and early 2000's with the growth of low cost carriers in the U.S...... and we saw what happened with that. The legacy carriers, over time, as the LCCs like JetBlue, Valujet/Airtran, Southwest, etc., grew, were dragged DOWN to the new domestic narrowbody compensation (40-50% pay cuts, no pension) and workrules (i.e. few work rules or FARs) created by the upstart and rapidly growing LCCs. It's only recently, after 15 years, that we're even approaching where we were before a decade and a half ago.

The men and women who apply to NAI will be on this forum. These are the arguments that you will hear, just like I heard 15 years ago from the JetBlue guy (for example) that went to work there for hourly rates that were less than half of our narrowbody rates, no pension, no workrules- watch:

"This new NAI operation is just starting out, they can't afford to pay a prevailing wage yet"

"What do YOU care about NAI? You're a pilot at Legacy Brand X which is huge. There's no way our little operation will hurt you."

"ALPA sucks because (insert excuse here, they furloughed me, they let the regional airlines exist, they screwed me on my seniority integration, they let my regional go out of business, etc., etc.) so why should I care about them?"

"Yeah but in a few years our wages will go up, you'll see"

There will be plenty of other excuses. There will be rationalizing, hemming and hawing, and multi-page threads about how NAI and the copy cats that will inevitably come along, aren't doing anything wrong. The NAI pilots will be in a honeymoon stage where they will see rapid growth, upgrades, and everything will be great. They'll be on here telling you so.

After a while, management will do something to **** them off, they'll start looking around and they'll realize just how badly they're being underpaid and how poorly they're being treated. "Hey, we need to unionize!" They'll get a union on the property, spend a few years trying to get that initial contract going, and eventually come up with a "big raise" that will be slightly below the prevailing wage and feel like they've had a victory.

Between all of that, if NAI and the inevitable copycats are successful, we'll see North Atlantic yields trashed, reorganization of its competitors (we already know what that means for us), and general ugliness until the situation stabilizes and a new UULCC comes along and starts the process all over again.

Sound familiar? It does to me.

All great points-so thanks! But, finally, we really are working in an entirely different economic and social environment. I really don't think history has to repeat itself in such a young and evolving industry. Plus, in 30 years it will all be automated anyways.

Footwarmer
02-14-2017, 11:17 PM
EASA rules are at least as stringent as FAR 117. Just sayin'

GF
GF, this is not quite the case. EASA Part FTL is actually remarkably less stringent than Part 117 in a few vital areas. The most evident being how many block hours you're allowed to produce per day. - There is no limit! So a European pilot is limited solely by the max duty day limit of 13 hours, extendable to 14 hours twice a week. Plus CA discretion up to 15 hours. This is why European airlines are flying longhaul flights of up to 13 hours flight time with only two pilots. (I'm doing one tomorrow!) Whereas a US carrier has to crew that same flight with 3 or 4 pilots. And since it is perfectly legal to have 14 hour duty days, European crews are routinely operating 12-13 hours turns. Which would cover most transcons-turns in the US. Trust me, you don't want EASA regs. EU/EASA is completely corrupted, and in the pockets of O'Leary and Kjos and the like. I sincerely hope that NAI gets crushed by FAA if they even contemplate operating with anything close to EASA regs from US domestic base.

FW.

NEDude
02-14-2017, 11:18 PM
Uh, no. Captain has final say who gets or doesn't get the jump seat.

Uh, no. The captain is bound by certain rules, specifically company rules and federal rules. For example you cannot deny an FAA or company inspection under most circumstances. You also cannot put people in the jumpseat who are prohibited by company policy or federal regulation. So it is more correct to say that the captain has the final say within the confines of company policy and federal regulation.

How this specifically applies to NAI is rather simple (frankly it boggles my mind to see how many so-called pilots on here are not aware of the basics of the jumpseat) - NAI is a foreign carrier and not a part of the CASS system. There is no way an NAI pilot can be permitted in the jumpseat due to federal regulations. The issue is taken completely out of the captains hands before it even starts (thus proving the captain does not "own the jumpseat"). So for any of you chest thumpers who come on here and proudly proclaim stuff like "you'll never be on my jumpseat", or "hope you like living in PVD", be aware you sound like ignorant buffoons with zero knowledge of jumpseating.

(PS - I am not talking about cabin seats, I am talking about the actual flight deck jumpseat)

Hilltopper89
02-15-2017, 02:43 AM
....filler.......

Hilltopper89
02-15-2017, 02:48 AM
Having a pulse and fogging a mirror (the current requirement to get a regional job) makes someone well vetted?



elaborate. please.

How does bombing hospitals in Afghanistan make someone more qualified to move people from NYC to LA than the guy who's actually been doing it for the last 10 years? :confused:

"Bombing hospitals in Afghanistan." Really, dude? I'll let other forum members evaluate your statement themselves. I've already made up my mind about you.

PotatoChip
02-15-2017, 03:27 AM
Stop trying to sound like you know anything. You didn't know squat about jumpseating and now you're pretending to be an expert on flying/rest rules for all ICAO countries?

Never claimed to be an expert at all. I'm not. However, flying for three years for an international carrier as an expat with pilots from all over the world has given me personal experience with rest rules elsewhere. Part 117 happened while I was out of the county, I've only recently learned all about it. While there is much bellyaching about it, it is a vast improvement over the previous rules, if for no other reason they are actually based in science. Again, I'm not an expert, however I did write a 32 page grad paper on fatigue and rest rules last fall...
I haven't flown 121 for six years, hence my forgetfulness about Canada. Need more explanation???

sweetholyjesus
02-15-2017, 04:05 AM
How does bombing hospitals in Afghanistan make someone more qualified to move people from NYC to LA than the guy who's actually been doing it for the last 10 years? :confused:
I don't know whether I should laugh or cry. Is Betsy Devos your childhood hero?

Riverside
02-15-2017, 05:38 AM
Agreed. He made an outlandish claim. He was called on it. Now he's hiding behind semantics.

Can't wait to see more wiggling.

What wiggling? I've asked show me how. And you come back with this stupid response.

Half wing
02-15-2017, 05:44 AM
Having a pulse and fogging a mirror (the current requirement to get a regional job) makes someone well vetted?



elaborate. please.

How does bombing hospitals in Afghanistan make someone more qualified to move people from NYC to LA than the guy who's actually been doing it for the last 10 years? :confused:


Regional pilots don't just fog a mirror and then go to a Legacy. Many Regional pilots spent 10-15 years like myself paying dues, making crappy pay, being gone from home, flying the legacy passengers, all to some day work for said Legacy. They already fly the Legacy passengers. In a way, they are already doing the same job as the legacy. These are the guys Legacy airlines want to hire because like I said, they are well vetted and they statistically do very well as new hires. They know the job and they weren't willing to throw anyone under the bus to get it. Regional pilots paid their dues and didn't shortcut anyone. NAI pilots don't give a crap about US pilots or undercutting the profession. By enlarge, they will be the types that do contract work for the rest of their careers. NEDude also falls into this category.

As far as the military. These guys put themselves between you and harms way. They risk their lives for your family. That is the least selfish thing someone can do and is deserving of a job at a Legacy by itself. They spend an entire career(20-30 years) getting 3000 hours. Much of that time is in aircraft going 5 times faster than your 172. Much of it with no autopilot on for practically the entire flight unlike airline ops. You can't just have your mom or dad write a check and you become a military pilot. The process to becoming a military weeds out all but the best pilots. These guys have passed the toughest training programs and statistically also do very well as Legacy new hires.

In the next few years, new regional pilots will be going to the majors in about 5 years with between 3-5000 hours. They too deserve to be Legacy pilots because they paid their dues, just like all of us here. They didn't crap on the US airline profession to get to the Legacy carriers.

I'm guessing your mom paid for your flight training and you have been at a regional for 2 years and think you should get to cut everyone else waiting their turn to fly a 737 at a Legacy. I could care less if you go the NAI route. Actually please do, that way I know you are statistically less likely to be sitting next to me one day.

Half wing
02-15-2017, 05:57 AM
Uh, no. The captain is bound by certain rules, specifically company rules and federal rules. For example you cannot deny an FAA or company inspection under most circumstances. You also cannot put people in the jumpseat who are prohibited by company policy or federal regulation. So it is more correct to say that the captain has the final say within the confines of company policy and federal regulation.

Yes exactly. Captain has final say as to whether a pilot can sit on the jump seat. We are obviously not talking about the FAA.

"How this specifically applies to NAI is rather simple (frankly it boggles my mind to see how many so-called pilots on here are not aware of the basics of the jumpseat) - NAI is a foreign carrier and not a part of the CASS system. There is no way an NAI pilot can be permitted in the jumpseat due to federal regulations. The issue is taken completely out of the captains hands before it even starts (thus proving the captain does not "own the jumpseat"). "

This has already been hashed out and is a moot point.


"So for any of you chest thumpers who come on here and proudly proclaim stuff like "you'll never be on my jumpseat", or "hope you like living in PVD", be aware you sound like ignorant buffoons with zero knowledge of jumpseating."

Actually, if it ever came to the point where NAI pilots could sit in the jumpseat, I would just politely decline their request for the jumpseat. I would not feel comfortable and I would be distracted because I'd know the pilot sitting behind me was ok throwing us all under the bus. So it's not chest thumping, it's about getting the job done safely.

PotatoChip
02-15-2017, 05:59 AM
Regional pilots don't just fog a mirror and then go to a Legacy. Many Regional pilots spent 10-15 years like myself paying dues, making crappy pay, being gone from home, flying the legacy passengers, all to some day work for said Legacy. They already fly the Legacy passengers. In a way, they are already doing the same job as the legacy. These are the guys Legacy airlines want to hire because like I said, they are well vetted and they statistically do very well as new hires. They know the job and they weren't willing to throw anyone under the bus to get it. Regional pilots paid their dues and didn't shortcut anyone. NAI pilots don't give a crap about US pilots or undercutting the profession.

You mean like Frontier, Miami, Sun Country and Swift? Or like Spirit and Allegiant before their recent contracts?? Were/are you bad mouthing all of their pilots? They all get paid the same or less. $38/hour for an A320 FO currently at Frontier year 1....

By enlarge, they will be the types that do contract work for the rest of their careers. NEDude also falls into this category. It's by and large....

As far as the military. These guys put themselves between you and harms way. They risk their lives for your family. That is the least selfish thing someone can do and is deserving of a job at a Legacy by itself. They spend an entire career(20-30 years) getting 3000 hours. Much of that time is in aircraft going 5 times faster than your 172. Much of it with no autopilot on for practically the entire flight unlike airline ops. You can't just have your mom or dad write a check and you become a military pilot. The process to becoming a military weeds out all but the best pilots. These guys have passed the toughest training programs and statistically also do very well as Legacy new hires.

In the next few years, new regional pilots will be going to the majors in about 5 years with between 3-5000 hours. They too deserve to be Legacy pilots because they paid their dues, just like all of us here. They didn't crap on the US airline profession to get to the Legacy carriers.

I'm guessing your mom paid for your flight training and you have been at a regional for 2 years and think you should get to cut everyone else waiting their turn to fly a 737 at a Legacy. I could care less if you go the NAI route. Actually please do, that way I know you are statistically less likely to be sitting next to me one day.

As to all of this, no one deserves to be a legacy pilot. There is a bit of humility involved.

Half wing
02-15-2017, 06:10 AM
You mean like Frontier, Miami, Sun Country and Swift? Or like Spirit and Allegiant before their recent contracts?? Were/are you bad mouthing all of their pilots? They all get paid the same or less. $38/hour for an A320 FO currently at Frontier year 1....


These airlines aren't operating under a flag of convenience so no, I'm not talking about these airlines. Apples and Oranges. Just like regional pilots can't be grouped into NAI's scheme.

"It's by and large...."

Oops


"As to all of this, no one deserves to be a legacy pilot. There is a bit of humility involved."

I see your point. However, I sure as heck know NAI pilots don't deserve to get on with the big US 3.

CBreezy
02-15-2017, 06:13 AM
Having a pulse and fogging a mirror (the current requirement to get a regional job) makes someone well vetted?



elaborate. please.

How does bombing hospitals in Afghanistan make someone more qualified to move people from NYC to LA than the guy who's actually been doing it for the last 10 years? :confused:

And how exactly would you determine if someone was well qualified?

NEDude
02-15-2017, 06:14 AM
NAI pilots don't give a crap about US pilots or undercutting the profession. By enlarge, they will be the types that do contract work for the rest of their careers. NEDude also falls into this category.


You are right, NAI pilots probably do not give a crap about US pilots or what is perceived by US pilots to be undercutting the profession considering they are European pilots and they are viewing NAI from the European market.

I very well may do contract work for the rest of my career and frankly I am okay with that. I know many pilots who have had lucrative careers doing contract work. Just because you have some irrational fear of it does not mean others should.

PotatoChip
02-15-2017, 06:17 AM
These airlines aren't operating under a flag of convenience so no, I'm not talking about these airlines. Apples and Oranges. Just like regional pilots can't be grouped into NAI's scheme.

"It's by and large...."

Oops


"As to all of this, no one deserves to be a legacy pilot. There is a bit of humility involved."

I see your point. However, I sure as heck know NAI pilots don't deserve to get on with the big US 3.

When you say airlines are "undercutting" others, I assumed salaries.
I don't like the flag of convenience model at all, and I am worried about what box it may open.
However, and this has been my point all along, pilots' energies and vitriol should be directed at Ireland and the US for allowing this to happen. I won't sit here throwing stones at a business for legally exposing ways to make money and hire US pilots with clear T & C's. If pilots don't like it, don't work there. I won't. It sounds awful. If they don't receive enough applicants, conditions may change (see regionals). Write your governmental leaders. This isn't about denying one company and then suddenly hating all of their pilots, it's about our governments giving us up and allowing flags of convenience. The US shipping industry didn't disappear because of one small company sailing three routes, it happened because of the regulations that were in place.

NEDude
02-15-2017, 06:32 AM
Yes exactly. Captain has final say as to whether a pilot can sit on the jump seat. We are obviously not talking about the FAA.

"How this specifically applies to NAI is rather simple (frankly it boggles my mind to see how many so-called pilots on here are not aware of the basics of the jumpseat) - NAI is a foreign carrier and not a part of the CASS system. There is no way an NAI pilot can be permitted in the jumpseat due to federal regulations. The issue is taken completely out of the captains hands before it even starts (thus proving the captain does not "own the jumpseat"). "

This has already been hashed out and is a moot point.


"So for any of you chest thumpers who come on here and proudly proclaim stuff like "you'll never be on my jumpseat", or "hope you like living in PVD", be aware you sound like ignorant buffoons with zero knowledge of jumpseating."

Actually, if it ever came to the point where NAI pilots could sit in the jumpseat, I would just politely decline their request for the jumpseat. I would not feel comfortable and I would be distracted because I'd know the pilot sitting behind me was ok throwing us all under the bus. So it's not chest thumping, it's about getting the job done safely.

So when guys on here make statements like "I'm never going to let any of them on my jumpseat", or "I hope you like living in PVD", it is your assertion that such statements are made strictly about getting the job done safely? That despite the fact that Norwegian pilots cannot ride in the jumpseat anyway, the statements are well thought out and rational? Okay...

Regarding the captains authority on the jumpseat - there is a big difference between having "final authority" and having total authority. The captains authority over the jumpseat is subject to limitations imposed by the company and various federal agencies.

EWRflyr
02-15-2017, 06:36 AM
Was this (https://www.rishworthaviation.com/news/88/breaking-news-rishworth-aviation-recruiting-norwegian-b737-non-type-rated-and-type-rated-pilots-for-b737max-operated-atlantic-services.aspx?utm_source=Rishworth+Aviation+Februa ry&utm_campaign=9b1504f6b2-20170210_NLH_B737_Recruitment&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_ed7fc54f55-9b1504f6b2-93493785&ct=t(20170210_NLH_B737_Recruitment) already covered on another thread?

Captain
$8500/month basic salary
$1000/month per diem

10 days off per month (minimum?)

First Offier
$4700/month basic salary
$1000/month per diem

10 days off per month (minimum?)

Yikes!

However, they'll get tons of applicants, no doubt.

787 FLL Information:

The Job
Successful applicants will be employed by OSM Aviation, based at Fort Lauderdale Hollywood International Airport (FLL), FL, flying Norwegian B787 Dreamliners on our exiting long haul network.

The Airline
Norwegian is a high quality
Norwegian has repetitiously won Best Low Cost Airline for both Short Haul- and Long Haul carrier

What we require
Note: You must have the legal right to live and work in the United States

Captain
FAA or EASA ATPL License
FAA or EASA Medical Class 1 (EASA Class 1 Medical required before commencing flight duty)
6,000 hours total flight time
2,500 hours PIC hours on any EFIS jet aircraft
1,000 hours on a wide body or narrow body aircraft in long haul operation

Relief Captain
FAA or EASA ATPL License
FAA or EASA Medical Class 1 (EASA Class 1 Medical required before commencing flight duty)
5,000 hours total flight time
2,500 hours on any EFIS jet aircraft
1,500 hours PIC hours on any EFIS jet aircraft or 1,500 hours as FO on a wide body aircraft

First Officer
FAA or EASA ATPL License
FAA or EASA Medical Class 1 (EASA Class 1 Medical required before commencing flight duty)
1,500 hours total time
1,000 hours on any EFIS jet aircraft

What we offer
Your Duty Periods starts and finishes at FLL

Your Gross Salary
Captain: $10,000 per month
Relief Captain: $ 7,500 per month
First Officer: $ 5,500 per month

Your Per Diem/Allowance
$ 1,000 per month (all ranks)

Your Bought Day Off
Captain: $1,000 per day
Relief Captain: $ 750 per day
First Officer: $ 550 per day

Your Phone Allowance
Captain: $100 per month
Relief Captain: $ 50 per month
First Officer: $ 50 per month

Your Special job pay
Base Chief Captain: $1,000 per month
Line Training Captains: $20 per hour
Simulator Instructors: $40 per hour (CA, RCA, FO)
Check Captains: $40 per hour

Your Time Off
You will get a minimum of 10 days off in a month
You will have 28 days of paid annual leave

Your Sick leave
30 paid sick leave days per year

Your Layover Station Transportation & Accommodation
Provided by Norwegian

Your Travel Benefits
ID travel benefits are provided to you and your qualifying family members on Norwegian services according to current policies
Service Tickets are provided to pilots for duty travel in conjunction with work

Your Insurance
Both Medical and Personal Accident and Illness insurance is provided by OSM Aviation
Loss of License insurance covers two years basic pay

Your Training
For near-type-rated (B737E/NG, B744, B748, B757/767) your type-rating course will be 17 days.
For those with a type-rating on B777, when qualified, the license will be endorsed with B777/B787 as they are considered same type
Training will be performed at training centres in either London Gatwick or Miami
To qualify for a short-courses you must be fully current

The Training Cost Bond
Unless you are B787 or B777 rated, before commencing training you must sign a training cost bond which will be reduced by 1/3 annually
- For pilots current on B737E/NG, B744, B748, or B757/767, the is USD 30,000
- For all other ratings the bond is USD 40,000

Your Contract
Your contract will be a 3-year renewable OSM Aviation contract, within 2 years you must however, successfully pass the test for the EASA ATPL if not yet in possession of such.
You must be able to pass the EASA Class 1 medical, and you must take an ICAO English test (EPL) if you have never passed this previously, even if you have automatically been awarded an EPL level by your current authority.

The Way to Apply
- Go to http: WWW.IMNOTHELPINGTHEMFINDPILOTSSOIREMOVEDTHEWEBSITE .COM
- Click on APPLY.
You will be asked to upload your CV, license, passport and photo.
Norwegian can arrange tickets on the Norwegian network to attend the screening process
Norwegian can book hotel at their rates where needed, but the you must settle the bill with the hotel upon arrival.

Flyawayhome
02-15-2017, 08:01 AM
Well this is alarming.. this morning on flight radar 24.

http://i63.tinypic.com/w2jfdg.png

CBreezy
02-15-2017, 08:05 AM
Well this is alarming.. this morning on flight radar 24.


It's been discussed here before. It's a charter through Apple Vacations and completely legal.

hoover
02-15-2017, 08:24 AM
Never claimed to be an expert at all. I'm not. However, flying for three years for an international carrier as an expat with pilots from all over the world has given me personal experience with rest rules elsewhere. Part 117 happened while I was out of the county, I've only recently learned all about it. While there is much bellyaching about it, it is a vast improvement over the previous rules, if for no other reason they are actually based in science. Again, I'm not an expert, however I did write a 32 page grad paper on fatigue and rest rules last fall...
I haven't flown 121 for six years, hence my forgetfulness about Canada. Need more explanation???

Only 32 pages? Mine was 80. I wish I could've wrote fewer pages.

PotatoChip
02-15-2017, 08:57 AM
Only 32 pages? Mine was 80. I wish I could've wrote fewer pages.

Great. Do you want an award? I wasn't aware this was a contest between us....:rolleyes:

tomgoodman
02-15-2017, 12:20 PM
Only 32 pages? Mine was 80. I wish I could've wrote fewer pages.

Mine was one paragraph. I got fatigued. :D

ShyGuy
02-15-2017, 01:12 PM
I looked at this list, and other than Air Jamaica, every single carrier was from the US or Canada. That was my point, I know of no carriers from Asia, Europe, South America etc with agreements. Someone mentioned Austrian, I had no idea about that. Who do they have agreements with?

I know our airline has an agreement with Cathay and they can ride in the back (main cabin).

GogglesPisano
02-15-2017, 01:19 PM
What wiggling? I've asked show me how. And you come back with this stupid response.

See post #57. Try to keep up.

ShyGuy
02-15-2017, 01:27 PM
Mine was one paragraph. I got fatigued. :D

I hear that happens in the senile years :D

Andy
02-15-2017, 04:50 PM
Never claimed to be an expert at all. I'm not. However, flying for three years for an international carrier as an expat with pilots from all over the world has given me personal experience with rest rules elsewhere. Part 117 happened while I was out of the county, I've only recently learned all about it. While there is much bellyaching about it, it is a vast improvement over the previous rules, if for no other reason they are actually based in science. Again, I'm not an expert, however I did write a 32 page grad paper on fatigue and rest rules last fall...
I haven't flown 121 for six years, hence my forgetfulness about Canada. Need more explanation???

OK, since you wrote a 32 page paper on fatigue and rest rules, how many different variations of flying duty/rest rules are there among ICAO states? I looked up a couple different countries just for yucks and saw that their duty/rest rules are completely different. Way too many variances between countries' rules to even try to remember.

DALFA
02-15-2017, 05:02 PM
Was this (https://www.rishworthaviation.com/news/88/breaking-news-rishworth-aviation-recruiting-norwegian-b737-non-type-rated-and-type-rated-pilots-for-b737max-operated-atlantic-services.aspx?utm_source=Rishworth+Aviation+Februa ry&utm_campaign=9b1504f6b2-20170210_NLH_B737_Recruitment&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_ed7fc54f55-9b1504f6b2-93493785&ct=t(20170210_NLH_B737_Recruitment) already covered on another thread?

Captain
$8500/month basic salary
$1000/month per diem

10 days off per month (minimum?)

First Offier
$4700/month basic salary
$1000/month per diem

10 days off per month (minimum?)

Yikes!

However, they'll get tons of applicants, no doubt.


So a 737 Captain will make about $105 per hour and a 737 F/O will make about $60 per hour.

A first year Allegian Capt on the A319 makes about 50% more. Wow...talk about low balling.

AA, DL, and UA should add a flight from PVD & SWF to wherever NAI chooses to fly with a 757 and undercut NAI. I bet NAI won't last more than 6-7 months before they'd pull out. Sure the big 3 would lose money but even if it's $100 million each (won't be that much) that's pennies compared to what they could be losing if they don't do anything about it.

2isclear
02-15-2017, 05:22 PM
One thing that concerns and confuses me is legacy CEO's really don't seem as concerned with NAI as the unions do. They seem much more concerned about Middle East carriers than NAI.

Andy
02-15-2017, 05:31 PM
One thing that concerns and confuses me is legacy CEO's really don't seem as concerned with NAI as the unions do. They seem much more concerned about Middle East carriers than NAI.

NAS (the parent company) is growing its fleet by ~20%/yr. With a plan to fly a lot of those planes to the US. The legacy CEOs need to wake up and start getting concerned.

While some here are thinking that it's just the backpack crowd that NAI will peel off from legacies, I expect them to snag a lot of vacation travelers who only look at price.

And then there's the NLH (Norwegian Long Haul) subsidiary which operates flights from Asia.

PotatoChip
02-15-2017, 05:56 PM
OK, since you wrote a 32 page paper on fatigue and rest rules, how many different variations of flying duty/rest rules are there among ICAO states? I looked up a couple different countries just for yucks and saw that their duty/rest rules are completely different. Way too many variances between countries' rules to even try to remember.

I have no idea how many. That would take much more than a 32 page paper to cover. I didn't say I was expert. I know about SOME other countries' rest rules. Are you just arguing to argue at this point???
I'm not continuing with this any longer. If you have an axe to grind, find someone else.

DALFA
02-15-2017, 07:19 PM
One thing that concerns and confuses me is legacy CEO's really don't seem as concerned with NAI as the unions do. They seem much more concerned about Middle East carriers than NAI.

Could it be because airline CEOs have about a 4-5 year shelf life? They'll take all their money and move on...

NEDude
02-15-2017, 11:08 PM
NAS (the parent company) is growing its fleet by ~20%/yr. With a plan to fly a lot of those planes to the US. The legacy CEOs need to wake up and start getting concerned.

While some here are thinking that it's just the backpack crowd that NAI will peel off from legacies, I expect them to snag a lot of vacation travelers who only look at price.

And then there's the NLH (Norwegian Long Haul) subsidiary which operates flights from Asia.

Norwegian Long Haul does not operate on its own AOC, it is operated under the Norwegian Air Shuttle AOC. Also NLH is headquartered in Fornebu, Norway, so it cannot be called a flag of convenience.

mainlineAF
02-15-2017, 11:56 PM
So a 737 Captain will make about $105 per hour and a 737 F/O will make about $60 per hour.



A first year Allegian Capt on the A319 makes about 50% more. Wow...talk about low balling.



AA, DL, and UA should add a flight from PVD & SWF to wherever NAI chooses to fly with a 757 and undercut NAI. I bet NAI won't last more than 6-7 months before they'd pull out. Sure the big 3 would lose money but even if it's $100 million each (won't be that much) that's pennies compared to what they could be losing if they don't do anything about it.



I wish the legacies would do that too. However, all they care about is stock price. Long-term threats don't bother short-term managers who have hundreds of millions in stock.



Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.1