Atlas / Southern
08-19-2019, 06:25 AM
#111
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2013
Position: Captain
Posts: 130
Originally Posted by Diesel8
Well, since "all is lost" for lack of a better term, can we stop paying the ridiculous assessment that we have been paying for close to half a decade that has netted us zip, zero, squat! Thousands paid with absolutely NOTHING to show for it.
If we did that at least we would be able to put something back in our pockets.
If the Union cronies tell us they still need it, I think it's time for:
D E C E R T.
If we did that at least we would be able to put something back in our pockets.
If the Union cronies tell us they still need it, I think it's time for:
D E C E R T.
I agree that the track record of the union in court and major arbitrations has not been the best, but not from lack of effort. One has to allow that the deck is completely stacked in managements favor in those arenas. “What would Christmas be without Amazon!?” and other such BS comes to mind.
I don’t believe an arbitrator can force the union to give up the joint seniority list. He can’t impose a fine like in a contempt of court charge if the union disregards the ruling. Amazon and DHL’s plans are totally derailed without a SOC between Atlas and Southern and the route authorities that brings to the table. The smart play would be to withhold the joint seniority list until a industry leading CBA is signed sealed and delivered. No CBA so forget about getting a joint seniority list and a SOC. End result, no DHL and Amazon partnership. That new CVG 1.5 billion dollar Prime Air hub can just gather dust until Atlas signs on the line that is dotted. Atlas new masters will have no choice but to demand it gets done and right now.
At any rate nothing has been announced and now is not the time to abandon ship whatever the outcome.
Last edited by Turbine1; 08-19-2019 at 07:10 AM.
08-19-2019, 06:52 AM
#112
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2015
Posts: 666
Originally Posted by 742Dash
Section 1.F.2.b.iii requires the arbitrator to issue the final ruling within 60 days of the start of arbitration, which in turn must start within 30 days of the end of the 9 month negotiating window.
The time line is fixed, and as I recall it was respected by all parties the last time we went down this road. Union starts the clock by presenting the merged list, 9 months of negotiations, 30 days to spin up the arbitrator, 60 days for the arbitrator to do his thing. Done.
This process is designed to be quick, as least by RLA standards.
The time line is fixed, and as I recall it was respected by all parties the last time we went down this road. Union starts the clock by presenting the merged list, 9 months of negotiations, 30 days to spin up the arbitrator, 60 days for the arbitrator to do his thing. Done.
This process is designed to be quick, as least by RLA standards.
08-19-2019, 06:54 AM
#113
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2011
Posts: 116
Originally Posted by Turbine1
Decert of Teamsters is a wet dream for the company. The 17 articles that are already TA’d and the 7 that are in progress go in the trash and back to square one. 3.5 years of progress down the tubes, and everything not TA’d AGAIN with another union goes to the arbitrators desk.
I agree that the track record of the union in court and major arbitrations has not been the best, but not from lack of effort. One has to allow that the deck is totally stacked in the companies favor in those arenas. “What would Christmas be without Amazon!?” and other such BS comes to mind.
I don’t believe an arbitrator can force the union to give up the joint seniority list. He can’t impose a fine like in a contempt of court charge if the union disregards the ruling. Amazon and DHL’s plans are totally derailed without a SOC between Atlas and Southern and the route authorities that brings to the table. The smart play would be no industry leading CBA signed sealed and delivered then no joint seniority list for you AAWH. Atlas new masters will have no choice but to demand it gets done and right now.
At any rate nothing has been announced and now is not the time to abandon ship whatever the outcome.
I agree that the track record of the union in court and major arbitrations has not been the best, but not from lack of effort. One has to allow that the deck is totally stacked in the companies favor in those arenas. “What would Christmas be without Amazon!?” and other such BS comes to mind.
I don’t believe an arbitrator can force the union to give up the joint seniority list. He can’t impose a fine like in a contempt of court charge if the union disregards the ruling. Amazon and DHL’s plans are totally derailed without a SOC between Atlas and Southern and the route authorities that brings to the table. The smart play would be no industry leading CBA signed sealed and delivered then no joint seniority list for you AAWH. Atlas new masters will have no choice but to demand it gets done and right now.
At any rate nothing has been announced and now is not the time to abandon ship whatever the outcome.
Slim
08-19-2019, 07:09 AM
#114
All is fine at .79
Joined APC: Sep 2016
Position: Paahlot
Posts: 4,082
Originally Posted by kodiakallstar
Yeah these guys would be playing right into the companies hands. I can’t think of anything that would give the company more leverage than the unions own membership pushing for a decert in the middle of negotiations.
It’s not.
08-19-2019, 08:39 AM
#115
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,803
Really
Turbine1 said....."That new CVG 1.5 billion dollar Prime Air hub can just gather dust until Atlas signs on the line that is dotted. Atlas new masters will have no choice but to demand it gets done and right now."
Maybe...but there are other players besides Atlas...ATI , ABX, even rumors of Mesa flying the 737's. He!! ATSG is probably in the 40ish a/c for Amazon now and has a total of 90 767's available under Cam leasing if Amazon decided to buy ATSG. I don't see the new Amazon hub gathering dust. Anybody could fly any of these aircraft and probably yours too. Amazon has no loyalty to any one particular carrier and is more than happy to spread it around as we now see. I would not hang my hat on Amazon and the new hub being an issue....they will just bottom feed bid it out.
Maybe...but there are other players besides Atlas...ATI , ABX, even rumors of Mesa flying the 737's. He!! ATSG is probably in the 40ish a/c for Amazon now and has a total of 90 767's available under Cam leasing if Amazon decided to buy ATSG. I don't see the new Amazon hub gathering dust. Anybody could fly any of these aircraft and probably yours too. Amazon has no loyalty to any one particular carrier and is more than happy to spread it around as we now see. I would not hang my hat on Amazon and the new hub being an issue....they will just bottom feed bid it out.
08-19-2019, 09:38 AM
#117
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,236
Originally Posted by Diesel8
Well, since "all is lost" for lack of a better term, can we stop paying the ridiculous assessment that we have been paying for close to half a decade that has netted us zip, zero, squat! Thousands paid with absolutely NOTHING to show for it.
If we did that at least we would be able to put something back in our pockets.
If the Union cronies tell us they still need it, I think it's time for:
D E C E R T.
If we did that at least we would be able to put something back in our pockets.
If the Union cronies tell us they still need it, I think it's time for:
D E C E R T.
1. Atlas Retirement... 5%... Southern Retirement... 0%... Merged Retirement? 2.5% (You're already losing money)...
2. Atlas Days of Service... 17... Southern's... 20.... Merged days of service? 18.5 (plus "Gateway")
3. Atlas Vacation... Vacation Slide gives you a month off... Southern Vacation... You get a 15 day Vacation line... Merged Vacation? You get a 10 Day "Vacation Line".
4. Atlas Max Day... 22... Southern Max Day... 28... Merged Max Day... 25 hours.
5. Atlas Commercial Dead Head... Business class international... Southern Commercial Dead Head... Middle seat in coach... Merged Commercial Dead Head... Middle Seat Coach unless the dead head is more than a 10 hour leg.
6. Atlas 12 year 747 Captain... $210 an hour... Southern 12 year 777 Captain... $149 an hour... Merged 12 year rate on the 747... $183 an hour.
7. Atlas Guarantee... 62 hours... Southern 60 hours... Merged... 61 hours.
8. Atlas Rig... 4.85 hours a day... Southern Rig... 0 hours a day... Merged Rig... 2.425 hours a day.
Congrats on your new contract you'd have been living under until 2022 when Atlas buys Amerijet and merges their rules into your contract. These are just a few rules, but since you wanted to save your 1% to merge your contract with Southern's so bad maybe 1224 should let you live on the Merged 2016 Contract you would've gotten and give you your 1% back. The rest will live under whatever Amalgamation brings in 2 or 3 years.
08-19-2019, 09:50 AM
#118
Line Holder
Joined APC: Aug 2019
Posts: 82
Originally Posted by Turbine1
Decert of Teamsters is a wet dream for the company. The 17 articles that are already TA’d and the 7 that are in progress go in the trash and back to square one. 3.5 years of progress down the tubes, and everything not TA’d AGAIN with another union goes to the arbitrators desk too.
I agree that the track record of the union in court and major arbitrations has not been the best, but not from lack of effort. One has to allow that the deck is completely stacked in managements favor in those arenas. “What would Christmas be without Amazon!?” and other such BS comes to mind.
I don’t believe an arbitrator can force the union to give up the joint seniority list. He can’t impose a fine like in a contempt of court charge if the union disregards the ruling. Amazon and DHL’s plans are totally derailed without a SOC between Atlas and Southern and the route authorities that brings to the table. The smart play would be to withhold the joint seniority list until a industry leading CBA is signed sealed and delivered. No CBA so forget about getting a joint seniority list and a SOC. End result, no DHL and Amazon partnership. That new CVG 1.5 billion dollar Prime Air hub can just gather dust until Atlas signs on the line that is dotted. Atlas new masters will have no choice but to demand it gets done and right now.
At any rate nothing has been announced and now is not the time to abandon ship whatever the outcome.
I agree that the track record of the union in court and major arbitrations has not been the best, but not from lack of effort. One has to allow that the deck is completely stacked in managements favor in those arenas. “What would Christmas be without Amazon!?” and other such BS comes to mind.
I don’t believe an arbitrator can force the union to give up the joint seniority list. He can’t impose a fine like in a contempt of court charge if the union disregards the ruling. Amazon and DHL’s plans are totally derailed without a SOC between Atlas and Southern and the route authorities that brings to the table. The smart play would be to withhold the joint seniority list until a industry leading CBA is signed sealed and delivered. No CBA so forget about getting a joint seniority list and a SOC. End result, no DHL and Amazon partnership. That new CVG 1.5 billion dollar Prime Air hub can just gather dust until Atlas signs on the line that is dotted. Atlas new masters will have no choice but to demand it gets done and right now.
At any rate nothing has been announced and now is not the time to abandon ship whatever the outcome.
08-20-2019, 12:59 AM
#120
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2013
Position: Captain
Posts: 130
Originally Posted by boeingdvr
Seriously- then the company can truly say it’s your pilots and unions fault. We are nearing the finish line. Even though it make take a couple more years.
If that scope merger language is not removed then Atlas pilots won’t get to vote on a contract their entire careers here. Just like in 2011 and apparently this contract cycle too. Of bigger concern though is if scope goes to the arbitrator again he’ll give mgt everything they want...just like he did in 2011. The executives are recently on record saying they want major increases in dry leasing and the ability to sell aircraft without the pilots attached. Just a company scare tactic? I don’t think so, I’ve never seen the company fail to follow thru on their threats.
If a majority of the pilot group don’t mind that, then proceed. Hand over our biggest bargaining chip, the combined seniority list and we’re headed to another arbitrated 50% discounted industry worst JCBA; this time with NO job protections.
We won’t be near the finish line. The company intentionally dragged it out 2.5 years after the joint list was published between Atlas and Polar in 2009. Bet on that timeline again, 9 months means nothing to AAWH and it isn’t binding. The Atlas/Southern list will take a year to merge first. Fun fact, during that 2.5 years of “good faith negotiations” it was later revealed that Atlas was secretly shopping around Polar to the highest bidder. Every Polar pilot would have been instantly on the street if they’d found a buyer.
So about the Fall of 2022, we’ll implement a new 10 yr JCBA and assume our new roles as Temp Pilots. I think avoiding that future is worth a little bad press. Shareholders are smart enough to see who really is to blame, as the tanking stock price reflects.
Last edited by Turbine1; 08-20-2019 at 01:14 AM.
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