Originally Posted by maxjet

I couldn’t disagree more and submit that this is the best thing for K2 pilots. Their Union has done nothing for them. DK is a wise man, who I hope, sees this opportunity to negotiate a deal favorable to both parties. If he doesn’t, then after the required waiting period they vote in another Union. Nothing was being accomplished by 1224 so they have lost nothing by leaving.

Originally Posted by JonnyKnoxville

Unbelievable

Originally Posted by Elevation

i suspect MaxJet was planting a nugget in this thread to get everyone who sees themselves as the Union's enforcer to start shouting-down people and insisting on gross simplifications. His game is to make us look silly. That's why he didn't post his comments in the related safety thread. The more we start ranting, the sillier we look.

Management certainly bares the lion's share of blame for the actions of departments and personnel they control. We all could have done more, however.

Any organization isalways in a process of self correction. Our exco has and continues to make mistakes, and some of the members are better than others. They threaten to fire me from my union positions on a regular basis (most recently for asking about safety programs on our Facebook site) and focus on maintaining social order at the expense of delivering real results. Even with all that, I think they are better today than they were a year ago or two years ago. So, yeah, we screw the pooc . We're improving and correcting though. That's more than I can say for other elements, like management.

Originally Posted by zerozero

Fair enough, but to blame the union for how the company hires, trains and schedules is a bit of a stretch. The union is involved with those matters only as deep as the company permits, which is to say, not very deep at all!

Originally Posted by zerozero

Fair enough, but to blame the union for how the company hires, trains and schedules is a bit of a stretch. The union is involved with those matters only as deep as the company permits, which is to say, not very deep at all!

Originally Posted by Enginethunder

Considering the post you quoted is coming from a Freedom A lister not surprising at all.

Originally Posted by maxjet

Such a silly person throwing stones.

Are you going to try to tell us that 1224 has done ANYTHING for our brothers and sisters at K4? Did the union negotiate the possible flow to K4? No. Have they done anything but give those pilots lanyards and take their dues? K2 pilots don’t generate enough dues to fend for themselves and the repayment costs of borrowing the capital to cover the cost under the union scheme is ridiculous. (I have been told that ALPA does NOT require you to borrow money from National to pay for their services?) They have moved away with very little risk and potential great reward.

Please explain to us all how staying in 1224 would have benefited their pilot group at all. I submit that DK would have just ignored them and they would never be released. Seems like a good time to try a new strategy that benefits the members and not the union.

Originally Posted by maxjet

Woah there cowboy. I am not blaming YOUR Union for anything. I am saying that the Union needs to take an active stand in monitoring the training department. As I have written this is not an AAWW problem only. Unions and companies love to tout the safety jargon. Yet, these programs continue to roll on. If you think that what I have written about the state of the training industry is exaggerated, then you need to pull your head out of the sand. If movement isn’t made towards better, more applicable, student based instruction, the accident will just be the first one. Read your history. This would not be the first paradigm shift in training. It has been done before. The last time was because of Union envolvement.

Originally Posted by zerozero

I understand quite well the problems we have in our training dept.

First of all, let's start at the top--the very top--with the CEO. He has effectively stonewalled all negotiations and even LoAs to the point where implementing AQP is unthinkable until we actually secure a new contract. So until that point in time, very far in the future, all of us are essentially doomed to continue training under an outdated and--as you rightly point out--ineffective system.

That is hardly the fault of the union, and indeed something unique to AAWW. The union wants a modern up to date training center. Let's settle a modern, up to date, industry standard contract with modern, up to date contractual language, and then we can start getting the crews the modern up to date training they deserve.

Originally Posted by Elevation

Regarding contracts, training and safety I think we get into a chicken and egg situation. Some will say we need a new contract so we can get training and safety improvements. I think focusing on safety and training applies pressure to get us that next contract. Either the company is in a position where they have to refuse training and safety improvements on the heels of a crash and Jan,2020 written commitment to safety or they deliver those improvements and face the added pressure to find and retain pilots who can perform. It's a win-win.

So can we do more? Yeah. We can push a lot harder on the safety front. Does that mean I think we are entirely to blame for our problems, no. I dont even think we are significantly to blame. But we can do a lot better. The recent Coronavirus MOU proves we can get things done. Let's attack our safety faults.