Not true. Cargo 360 had a lucrative Korean Air Contract that kept their 3 Freighter flying in excess of 200 hours a month. All CM's at Cargo 360 averaged flying around 70-80 hours a month. Cargo 360 was purchased by Oak Hills who then put in an order for 5 777's and then bought Southern and decided to combine the 2 carriers under the Southern certificate ran by the Neff's. -This is all fact.

I would disagree, having worked for Connie also..Connie is the master craftsman at making one mans junk another mans treasure. When we were flying those turd box DC-8-52s thru -63s Connie made a lot of money and outlasted all the Adhoc DC-8 operators of the era and the same with the classics...Ned Wallace was the driving force behind Connie getting rid of the Classics and it wasnt cause they werent making money.... its called a paradigm shift .. ask the Zoners if you dont understand..a CEO not willing to adjust.. until it was way too late. By the way K4 is a billion dollar in revenue privately held company... nobody to answer to but himself!!! And to note 360 had deep pockets and David Greenberg former Delta CEO as their leader..they def could have went places without SA INC in my honest opinion.

I don't know who your disagreeing with, but Greenberg was never the CEO of Delta Airlines. Prior to being the owner of Cargo 360, he was the Director of Safety for Korean Air, before that the Director of Safety for some Airline in California. Prior to that he worked at Delta in some capacity I heard the story a long time ago but forget...

If you worked at Kalitta, you are hardly the go to expert on Cargo 360.

Try again. This time be specific on what you are disagreeing to, try using the quote icon...

Im disagreeing with you! Ok I stand corrected..Greenberg was VP of Flt Ops for Delta...I never proclaimed to be an expert on 360. Everything I stated on 360 was true except Greensberg’s position at Delta. I am a long time friend of the VP of Flt Ops at 360 and even worked with him and DG on another start up project.. but there always has to be the one guy in the room and that would be you! Most guys that came through in the 80s and 90s in Non Sked knows the history of all these companies... it wasnt top secret!

Southern had a contract with Korean before Cargo 360 was even in existence. They even flew Cargo 360's contract for close to 6 months while they were stumbling on their proving runs.

Cargo 360 had no ACMI diversity, just the Korean contract which was due to the ties that management had with Korean. Delta was brought in to Korean to address safety issues. The ties were so strong that displaced Korean Air FE's flew their original Korean Pratt powered Classics. That was part of the deal that they had. Those engineers were later picked up by Southern as part of the merger.

In the ACMI world, movement from the Classics to the -400 was precipitated more by regulatory changes that had to do with aging airframes & wiring. Connie was able to run them longer than anyone else because of his resourcefulness. In addition to that, fuel economy and falling -400 lease rates were a factor as well.

With Southern going to Atlas work rules will Southern guys still be home based? Will Southern get business class deadheads? What about Business class for commuting? 17 day work schedules?

But the one and ONLY thing you said about Cargo 360 is the Greenberg statement. Then you ramble out K2, have no idea what you are discussing here.

I haven't read the proposal but Atlas doesn't have Home Basing so if they got all of our rules then no they wouldn't have Home Basing anymore. Business class deadheading is for international flights or a duty day that exceeds 16 hours. So no business class for commuting unless you're paying for an upgrade.

You are truly the dumbest person on this forum. The crazy part is I know you. I guess the part about Oak Hill escaped you.. but typical DB fashion

OK, I think I see what is going on here. You are not disagreeing with me but with Diesel8.

And for the record, your spot on with your remarks about Oak Hills and Southern and Cargo 360 from the previous page. It was Diesel8 who is disagreeing with your post.

But you are absolutely right, I am the dumbest person on this forum.

Were any of you even at Cargo 360? Always interesting to talk with the old Southern guys about what they thought Was going on at C360 prior to the merger..

Since it’s the same work rules, will it still be 20 on 10 off?

You would probably have to ask a Sourthern pilot. It isn't 100 percent the Atlas contract. I've heard it's about 85-90% the Atlas contract with some edits by management.

No one outside of those directly involved with the LOA negotiations or the Executitive Board & lawyers has even seen the management offer. After it is reviewed, the pilots have to yes or no. Anything else is just speculation. Management assuming they have reached a tentative offer is woefully optimistic.

Anyone able to post the TA? Let’s see what kind of smoke and mirrors they are using, or maybe it really is a good deal? :eek:

Southern has Home Basing on the 777. On the 737 the base is CVG, and the jumpseat options are very limited.

Atlas has Gateway (or Alternate) Travel and Bases...quite complicated, and not as good as Home/Gateway Basing.

What a surprise. Yet another Southern Air post overshadowed by all Atlas pilots who seem to know more. 🤦*♂️

Does Southern only have 10 aircraft, according to their profile? And 254 pilots? That's a huge number of pilots per aircraft, just curious.

You haven't realized by now the Cliff is a *********g expert on everything that has to do with aviation?

True. The 777 is 99% of the time flown with 3-4 pilots.

I believe that Atlas manning goals are 22 pilots per 767, and 25 per 747.

SouthernAir FO ; any firsthand experience
 

Hello,

Does anyone on the forum have experience as a Southern Air FO?
Specifically the 777.

- What is a typical 20 hour rotation like? ( hours per day, flight hours per day, work hours, example; 1 a.m. to 2 pm ,etc.

- destinations. ( cities " overniting in"), and any free time while there, or are you just too tired ?

- How many days to recover after 20 days on, when you start your 10 days off?

- Any estimates on upgrade time, health of company, career potential?

Thank you for any input !

You’re actually asking about what working 20 days in a row is like? Have some self-worth. Can you not get hired ANYwhere else?

And if you're really lucky you may get stuck with a line with an end of the month pattern rolling into a line with a beginning of the month pattern for a nice easy 40 days away from home.

Hello,

Does anyone on the forum have experience as a Southern Air FO?
Specifically the 777.

- What is a typical 20 hour rotation like? ( hours per day, flight hours per day, work hours, example; 1 a.m. to 2 pm ,etc.

# You're on the road for the full 20 but that will change 17 in Jan as LOA gets implemented. Flying is the back side of the clock (take off at midnight and land at 2200 (10 to 13 hours away).

- destinations. ( cities " overniting in"), and any free time while there, or are you just too tired ?

# LA, Cincinnati , Leipzig Germany, Bahrain, Hong Kong, Dubai, Inchon, Miami, we are adding JFK. Most stops are 24-36 hrs, some longer and some min rest - it just depends. First half of the trip some folks are into going out, some are loners and just wing it solo. Second half most are tired.

- How many days to recover after 20 days on, when you start your 10 days off?

# For me 2-3 days as I TRY to stay on my home timezone. Your milage may vary.

- Any estimates on upgrade time, health of company, career potential?

# The company is Atlas and you can read lots on here about us. I wound speculate on upgrades as I think its a bit of a moving target depending on choices you make (777/737). If you're asking for my opinion I think it is a transitional airline, cut your teeth and get the experience you need for better pastures. I like the people I fly with and the Southern front office are good to work with. Scheduling can suck at times. I like it here because of the people but this isn't my final airline.

Thank you for any input !

#Hope this helps

Your not doing yourself any favors coming to SAI. You are not going to get a lot of experience as you will not actually be doing a lot of flying. 737 lines average about 35 hours a month. 777 lines are a lot higher but due to the nature of the flying your not actually accumulating any meaningful flight experience, what your learning is how to get rest on a 15+ hour leg. As an FO you will constantly be fighting to maintain currency.

If you are a low time pilot and think this is your golden opportunity to get a leg up on your career you will be sadly mistaken. Pay your dues, and get some real experience.

Things are still changing here, certainly not for the better. The LOA is a bandaid on a battle wound. The benefits of it have yet to be realized, and are not as great as what many would think. There are some things that are even worse than what we had before. If there is one thing that Atlas excels at it's screwing pilots, and they did that with this LOA. Don't think that they were being generous.

The biggest thing at SAI is an atmosphere of extreme uncertainty, more so now than at any other time that I have experienced. There are bad things on the horizon.

Thank you, great info !

Thank you, very helpful feedback !

I’d like to think positive about SAI and Atlas’ future. And I’m sure I’m just being naive and ignorant. But, doesn’t most history show a leapfrog effect on CBA’s? Couldn’t the SAI and Atlas Mec’s, along with the full support of each pilot group go to the negotiating table with a contract similar to purple or brown? Do the pilots not have the upper hand in today’s industry? Isn’t there something that can be done to get the company to see that the pilot groups only want a fair, industry leading contract? It’s business right? So when it becomes non-profitable to be a pilot for them you leave to where there is a profit to be made. They would.
If the company is truly dragging their knuckles on negotiations then the pilot groups must take action to force their hand to sign an acceptable contract or pull the plug. $#)+ or get off the pot.

^^ Not a whole lot the pilot group (Atlas) can really do. They won’t be released to strike anytime soon. Negotiations can take years to finish. Add to that, the company is waiting for results on wheather to Arbitrate or not. If the company wins the lawsuit on Arbitration, the contract the pilots will get come from the Arbitrator. No vote from pilot group.
We should know more how things may turn out early next year.
As for a contract, maybe 2020/2021.
Anything close to UPS or Purple? No.

I truly hate to hear this. I do hope that the company loses the arbitration suit. And the pilots are able to vote on an outstanding contract.

Atlas and SAI are Teamsters with an EXCO (ALPA has the MEC's). And they work well together.

Pilots ARE leaving: about 200 in the last year alone - more than 10%. Been happening for several years, now.

The problem is the old anti-union contract that was originally forced on us back in the early 2000's. Bad merger language allowed the company to avoid having to sign a new contract - ever - as long as they purchased a new airline, no matter how small, every time the current contract came up for ratification.

Sucks.

I agree. It sucks.

Dealing with the union and the company locking up after we lost two lawsuits. One to be turned back to arbitration on the merger in one case and getting caught on a work action we telegraphed coming despite internal warnings among our own. Not the best leadership. Smells of the Polar/Atlas merger all over again. Should we be surprised?

The EXCO Chair now has extended his stay by getting an extra year and a half payout for his sub-level services past his retirement that he declared himself leader in chief despite 1224 IBT bylaw.

You can look that violation up under section 13 versus his announcements to the membership on Feb 13. *

I agree it sucks.

I disagree we "got caught...telegraphing...a work action."

The statistician hired by the company to collect "data" that was used against us, admitted under oath he started his collection late in 2015. The merger games didn't begin until early 2016. The company was clearly anticipating something, anything, in order to drag this all out as long as they could. We could have all been company w#0res and the company STILL would have sued us. That's in their playbook.

I happen to think the current ExCo chair is the right person for this job. Most guys willing to do the job either get snowed (wined and dined by the company) or suck up and get off by "working with" company executives. We need a fighter, and you clearly have a different opinion, which is fine, but you can't tell me the ExCo chair isn't fighting. In fact, he'll never enjoy any gain or benefit when this fight is finally over.

Agree with zerozero.

sudden, what would you be doing differently? What does your intimate knowledge of the situation tell you that would be the best course of action? Will you be running for office?

He is a fighter if you pledge allegiance to him and his paycheck, otherwise he will burn everyone in his way despite the memberships wishes and dues paying him. I wish otherwise, but his actions prove more than words leaving me and my crew hanging out to dry once he heard my name on the emergency line..

I could go on, but the last few IBT reports pretty well sum up as Atlas 1224 is well taken care of compared to past admins.

As an added note, we don't need to decertify IBT. As dirty as we get internally, it's better than ALPA and their infrastructure.

I have a lot. Feel free to PM me. Since the union has closed down the internal union web forums and 1224 local having to take up the slake, I don't want to give Atlas any more leverage. You know, the site BK has tried to shut down among the membership vs using the "the facebook page" of no one claims as their own..

Get real, that would stand up in court for three minutes.

If the only exposure I had of ALPA was from my days at the regional, I would agree with you.
Being at K4, got to see what ALPA is really like, and you are delusional if you think a truck driving union has better resources available to pilots.
What I think really is going on is that Atlas enjoys being a big fish in a small pond, rather than being a small fish in the Pacific ocean.
With that said, I hope you guys get your new contract and you get what you want, near Fed Ex rates.

Obviously!

Who wouldn't?

What you don't point out, and apparently didn't learn in the regionals is that unless you're FedEx, DAL or UAL you're basically fish food in the Pacific Ocean.

No thanks.

https://image.shutterstock.com/image...-281648951.jpg

I had 14 years under ALPA at my previous ACMI carrier and saw first hand just how they treat any airline other than Delta, FedEx, and United. A big fish in a small pond is much better than fish food in the ocean.

But it is difficult to clearly have a better picture of ALPA since they took over at K4, what, just about a year ago. And don't forget that it is a Teamster contract you are operating under.

I hope we get the mother of all contracts, too. I believe that a rising tide lifts all ships. And had K4 stayed under the Teamster banner, they would be in the same harbor as the rest of the DHL/Amazon ACMI carriers and make this a better, stronger collective team of pilot groups. I think it was a mistake and an insult for K4 to abandon Teamster after the contract, but the pilot group fell for the rantings of a few malcontents and their mis-information agenda.

We at Atlas are doing our best to forge a new contract under very difficult legal constraints and the rantings of the few who spout anti union/anti EXCO propaganda here need to be ignored. As we have seen, they have nothing constructive to add and only like to hear their own voices.

I was right there with you for 14 years
do you remember when Randy Babbitt wrote us a check for a cool million for SPC?
that doesn't sound like lack of support to me
wanna know what we got from teamsters during negotiations - ZERO - we even had to pay for our lawyer - boy that was money down a hole

As far as K4 going to ALPA - I can tell you as one who was deep inside the K4 1224 leadership, and same for ALPA today - 1224 and APA are a complete sh!t show in comparison. YMMV but that's what I have seen and see today

as far as the fish go - what your saying is because atlas is the big fish the little fish can go to he!! - got it