Notices

Atlas / Southern

Old 04-17-2020, 06:32 PM
  #1031  
Gets Weekends Off
 
RemiDenton's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Jul 2016
Posts: 240
Default

Originally Posted by akfrtdwg 57 View Post
You’re actually incorrect. Just because a company is ACMI doesn’t mean sufficient revenue isn’t generated to pay their Flight Crews on par with UPS or FDX. But we are consistently paid less because people come here with a couple mindsets. They are ‘You’re only an ACMI pilot and not on par with Brown or Purple.’ And ‘I’m only here til someone better calls me so I have no real skin in the game.’ Both of which are insulting to the people that are here for the long hall. One, they just look down on ACMI pilots and two they are selfish enough just to come here and not bother to help try and make it better.

The ugly truth is, these companies can afford to pay mainline rates. If management couldn’t they wouldn’t be setting themselves up for major bonuses every time your turned around. They wouldn’t be paying themselves on par with mainline counterparts. Why is it they think they deserve equal pay but we don’t? Don’t fall into that ‘It’s only ACMI’ trap if you end up getting skin in the game.

I didn’t mean they weren’t as profitable but aren’t the margins completely different? Brown and Purple have trucks, stores, their own sorting facilities. I’m not sure on the size of AAWW, as I’m a newb, but ACMI based profits today on cheap gas dwindle when oil goes back up doesn’t it? Small world triggers seem like they can have an enormous effect on the overall game.

But again, I know I haven’t scratched the surface on knowing how much $$$ can be made. Just seems like the answer will be they can’t afford to pay the same hourly rates for those reasons.


(Btw sorry for the mobile misspellings)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
RemiDenton is offline  
Old 04-17-2020, 06:47 PM
  #1032  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined APC: Jan 2015
Posts: 169
Default

Originally Posted by RemiDenton View Post
I didn’t mean they weren’t as profitable but aren’t the margins completely different? Brown and Purple have trucks, stores, their own sorting facilities. I’m not sure on the size of AAWW, as I’m a newb, but ACMI based profits today on cheap gas dwindle when oil goes back up doesn’t it? Small world triggers seem like they can have an enormous effect on the overall game.

But again, I know I haven’t scratched the surface on knowing how much $$$ can be made. Just seems like the answer will be they can’t afford to pay the same hourly rates for those reasons.


(Btw sorry for the mobile misspellings)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Depending on the contract. But Atlas doesn’t pay for gas. It’s on the customer. ACMI in general have very little overhead in comparison to a giant company like Purple or Brown that has to pay for all of their infrastructure as well. We just move freight from one place to the next for the most part. It’s a multi-billion dollar a year in revenue company. They hide how much profit they make with accounting practices and buying back stock. Again, they pay themselves larger and larger sums each year. Bonuses each year, our former CEO paid himself as much as Americans CEO. To turn around and tell any group of employee’s we simply can’t pay you that much or try to convince them they aren’t worth that much is absurd. Although there are plenty here that think. ‘We aren’t UPS or FDX’. Ask them how so and they can’t even answer. They just know that what they are supposed to think.
akfrtdwg 57 is offline  
Old 04-17-2020, 07:26 PM
  #1033  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: Retired
Posts: 651
Default

Originally Posted by Fillmore Slim View Post
Have got to respectfully disagree with you. Your profile states that you're a retired 747 pilot that's now delivering packages for Amazon. I'm not going to pretend to understand anyone's personal finances, but would you agree that after retiring from an airline one should not need to deliver Amazon packages? Through all my years here I've met numerous pilots who've had 2nd jobs because they couldn't afford to live on just an Atlas paycheck, much less their paltry retirement. These are 747 Captains that drive buses (seriously), drive for Uber / lyft or numerous other "side hustles." ****! Right now Atlas is capitalizing on $10 / KG freight prices and bargain basement fuel costs. Every 747 landing RIGHT NOW is netting the company approx $1,000,000 in net profits. The union is the only shot we have at retiring with a nest egg large enough to honestly retire. I have friends that have retired from all the majors................not one of them has had to take another job after retirement. Atlas prey's on pilots and their good nature and intentions. UPS and FEDEX pilots have figured it out. All they had to do was collectively look in the mirror. Buyer beware.
The danger with humor is that it is often lost on those who do not understand the background.

It should not be hard for an actual Atlas pilot to figure out who I am from my profile. My situation, after a lot of years flying 747s for Atlas, is the exact opposite of what you suggest. All from W2 income -- I am far from having been born into privilege. LPT - save 15% for retirement, have a simple asset allocation, use index funds, re-balance once a year, do not think that you are smarter than everyone else. Do not follow creative investment advice from Captains. Do not buy expensive toys that you won't, in truth, enjoy. But do let your wife have a toy or two, so as to stay on wife 1.0. Fortunately my wife's favorite toy is a classic BMW. May the Kugelfischer God continue to smile upon me and not make me search for fuel injectors!

Meanwhile too many of my friends at majors have retired into stress because they can not figure out how to make it work. I guess that you have smarter friends than I do.

One of the interesting twists in history is that of the two best known practitioners of the Stoic Philosophy one was a Roman Emperor and the other was a former slave. A well lived live is not about your job.
742Dash is offline  
Old 04-17-2020, 08:18 PM
  #1034  
Gets Weekends Off
 
RemiDenton's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Jul 2016
Posts: 240
Default

Originally Posted by Turbine1 View Post
Interesting discussion. Unfortunately Stockholm Syndrome is real at AAWW. Like a spouse that's been beat for decades many here believe we'll never get or deserve a compansation on par with FDX or UPS and should just take what we get. Meanwhile Atlas makes 1 mil a 74 flight and refuses even a 1% across the board pilot raise for this more hazardous flying in the era of COVID-19. "Any increase in pay would put the company out of business". A more accurate management statement is "No raises for pilots, as it would take the extra profits we're making out of our executives pockets." I can bet their attitude going forward will be the recession is killing our business so we'll need you to take a pay cut, but be grateful to us you still have a job.
Attachment 5220

You would think they’d prefer to minimize training and turnover and roll the savings to the pilot group. It would be just as profitable up top in theory.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
RemiDenton is offline  
Old 04-17-2020, 08:21 PM
  #1035  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined APC: Jan 2015
Posts: 169
Default

Originally Posted by RemiDenton View Post
You would think they’d prefer to minimize training and turnover and roll the savings to the pilot group. It would be just as profitable up top in theory.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
If they thought that we would have had a contract a few years ago and not be looking at 2022 at the earliest now.
akfrtdwg 57 is offline  
Old 04-17-2020, 08:32 PM
  #1036  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Turbine1's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Jan 2013
Position: Captain
Posts: 130
Default

Originally Posted by akfrtdwg 57 View Post
You’re actually incorrect. Just because a company is ACMI doesn’t mean sufficient revenue isn’t generated to pay their Flight Crews on par with UPS or FDX. But we are consistently paid less because people come here with a couple mindsets. They are ‘You’re only an ACMI pilot and not on par with Brown or Purple.’ And ‘I’m only here til someone better calls me so I have no real skin in the game.’ Both of which are insulting to the people that are here for the long hall. One, they just look down on ACMI pilots and two they are selfish enough just to come here and not bother to help try and make it better.

The ugly truth is, these companies can afford to pay mainline rates. If management couldn’t they wouldn’t be setting themselves up for major bonuses every time your turned around. They wouldn’t be paying themselves on par with mainline counterparts. Why is it they think they deserve equal pay but we don’t? Don’t fall into that ‘It’s only ACMI’ trap if you end up getting skin in the game.
​​​​​​Interesting discussion. Unfortunately Stockholm Syndrome is real at AAWW. Like a spouse that's been beat for decades many here believe we'll never get or deserve compensation on par with FDX or UPS and should just take what we get. Meanwhile Atlas makes 1 mil a 74 flight and refuses even a 1% across the board pilot raise for this more hazardous flying in the era of COVID-19. "Any increase in pay would put the company out of business". A more accurate management statement is "No raises for pilots, as it would take the extra profits we're making out of our executives pockets." I can bet their attitude going forward will be the recession is killing our business so we'll need you to take a pay cut, but be grateful to us you still have a job.
Turbine1 is offline  
Old 04-17-2020, 11:31 PM
  #1037  
Gets Weekends Off
 
C17B74's Avatar
 
Joined APC: May 2013
Position: No Hats No Jackets No PAX
Posts: 1,451
Default

Definitely some good insight to executive mindset on all fronts including the Majors and pretty much any CEO not just Giant. Our executives are just better at it than the others. Definitely believe we deserve on par pay and benefits like those mentioned before just using the much more diverse construct and working environment we live in. More diverse locations than most if not all that any pilot may find themselves in and do just based on a multitude of schedule changes. Company does bring in enough profits to pay accordingly so the argument is there no doubt. We are kind of UPS/FedExish flying wise, but there ends the discussion, hence we are not the same. Both have contracts but have a major ground operations as well supporting their entirety as mentioned before and we are not “Atlas Moving” Semi’s you see running around. We are pure contracts leasing or otherwise, some scheduled (DHL, Amazon, etc.) some are not and based on customer needs, therefore ebb and flow. Both UPS/FedEx hire outside (Giant, etc.) during peak consistently every year at the same time, in our case Kalitta or whoever show up for durations we can’t handle due to internal constraints you can use any reason right there as we gain, maintain or try not to lose business. Either way, similar as one might argue or not, it’s about whether the profits dictate an upward contract which seems so and that is the bottom line . Just looking out from the inside, one stick actuator opinion.

Both UPS/FedEx have 10-20 years in the game prior to Giant so there have been incremental steppingstones to where they are today. We could be much like them, but there is a much smarter game being played right now, and in the past it seems. History did repeat itself.
C17B74 is offline  
Old 04-18-2020, 04:20 AM
  #1038  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined APC: Jul 2017
Posts: 1,337
Default

FedEx and UPS were stepping stone flying jobs for people to get to PanAm and TWA. Conditions change. Regarding margins ACMI often beats FedEx and Brown (not paying for last mile delivery, etc.), but our business is much less predictable. That lack of predictability is the biggest reason not to make a home in this industry segment. So there's money to be earned for crews, but even if we get great compensation a career in ACMI comes with inherent risk.
Elevation is online now  
Old 04-18-2020, 05:50 AM
  #1039  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined APC: Jan 2015
Posts: 169
Default

Originally Posted by Elevation View Post
FedEx and UPS were stepping stone flying jobs for people to get to PanAm and TWA. Conditions change. Regarding margins ACMI often beats FedEx and Brown (not paying for last mile delivery, etc.), but our business is much less predictable. That lack of predictability is the biggest reason not to make a home in this industry segment. So there's money to be earned for crews, but even if we get great compensation a career in ACMI comes with inherent risk.
I would argue that if you expect people to accept inherent risk they need to be compensated for it. So we should be paid more than the other guys to offset said risk.
akfrtdwg 57 is offline  
Old 04-18-2020, 07:20 AM
  #1040  
Line Holder
 
Joined APC: Jun 2017
Posts: 27
Default Aircraft choices

I have read through this thread, but my head is spinning as there is a lot of information. Does the below look accurate? Would you add anything significant to consider when choosing what to ask for?

767: 13 days off, 17 day trips, Often split trips, Oldest aircraft, Mixed Dom/Int'l routes, No crew bunks, 3 yr upgrade
777: 13 days off, 17 day trips, Rarely split trips, Newest aircraft, Mostly Int'l routes, ?? crew bunks, 4 yr upgrade
747: 13 days off, 17 day trips, some split trips, mid-aged aircraft, Mostly Int'l routes, has crew bunks, 4 yr upgrade

Also, it appears that although the 747 has the higher pay rates the 777 has higher credit for overall higher pay?

Thanks!
HeloGuy is offline  
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
verticalspeed
Part 135
5669
03-25-2024 04:02 PM
boeingdvr
Atlas/Polar
150
09-12-2018 06:14 PM
MD-11Loader
Atlas/Polar
212
05-06-2016 10:20 AM
MD-11Loader
Mergers and Acquisitions
1
01-30-2016 07:21 AM
EZRider
Cargo
2
03-09-2010 06:18 AM

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Your Privacy Choices