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Birdsmash 04-18-2020 07:30 AM


Originally Posted by HeloGuy (Post 3035105)
I have read through this thread, but my head is spinning as there is a lot of information. Does the below look accurate? Would you add anything significant to consider when choosing what to ask for?

767: 13 days off, 17 day trips, Often split trips, Oldest aircraft, Mixed Dom/Int'l routes, No crew bunks, 3 yr upgrade
777: 13 days off, 17 day trips, Rarely split trips, Newest aircraft, Mostly Int'l routes, ?? crew bunks, 4 yr upgrade
747: 13 days off, 17 day trips, some split trips, mid-aged aircraft, Mostly Int'l routes, has crew bunks, 4 yr upgrade

Also, it appears that although the 747 has the higher pay rates the 777 has higher credit for overall higher pay?

Thanks!

i would not base any decisions on the “current” upgrade times. The airline is not growing overall, nor will it probably in the near future due to the economic fallout of the pandemic. Near term things are busy. Will it stay that way? Doubt it.

There is a little growth on the 737/777 side driving upgrade times down. However, once there is a merged seniority list there will be well over a thousand FOs ahead of you. Other than a handful of retirements, attrition has dried up.

Twin Wasp 04-18-2020 08:31 AM


Originally Posted by Turbine1 (Post 3034894)
񹙋񹙋񹙋Meanwhile Atlas makes 1 mil a 74 flight and refuses even a 1% across the board pilot raise for this more hazardous flying in the era of COVID-19.

Not to make excuses for management but about 80% of Atlas/Polar/Southern flying is ACMI which means the company is getting the same per hour rate as they were in January.

ImmaAHole 04-18-2020 08:47 AM

Seams simple to me. Managements attitude is that they can do what they want, and the pilots still do the flying.

C17B74 04-18-2020 09:25 AM


Originally Posted by akfrtdwg 57 (Post 3035031)
I would argue that if you expect people to accept inherent risk they need to be compensated for it. So we should be paid more than the other guys to offset said risk.

Agree very much all things being equal. But since they are not and people who gamble and either win or lose are held accountable since no one forced them to the table to take the initial risk, we are in this stalemate if you will. Adding hostile and hot zone flying has added minor reward but they were never part of the original package; otherwise, this place really hasn’t changed the initial flying mantra since day one. Those who have been hired here these last 5 years or more have had the information presented prior to acceptance. It’s a voluntary force if you will, but I do agree with you on compensation for the risk now more than ever. Those in charge are willing to take the risk regarding our growth and we take the end game risk, especially now that there is no pilot shortage - at least for some time. Risk seems to have paid off for one of the two at the table.

Fillmore Slim 04-18-2020 10:45 AM


Originally Posted by akfrtdwg 57 (Post 3035031)
I would argue that if you expect people to accept inherent risk they need to be compensated for it. So we should be paid more than the other guys to offset said risk.

Bingo! It's the reason contract captains on the G-5 // GLEX make $1000+ per day and have all their expenses covered......because they don't know when the next trip will cancel. We don't have a product to sell......no widgets to speak of. Atlas contracts everything out (mx, ground personal, loadmasters, flight attendants, etc). Hell, even our HQ in Purchase is rented space from Morgan Stanley, as is space for our sims. Atlas has no hard assets, except for the Pilots on the seniority list. It's quite brilliant actually, keep costs as low as possible so you can turn the lights off whenever it's in the best interest of management.

The pilots here can go anywhere at anytime. They are exceptional aviators and should be compensated accordingly.

CRJJ 04-18-2020 11:04 AM


Originally Posted by Birdsmash (Post 3035111)
i would not base any decisions on the “current” upgrade times. The airline is not growing overall, nor will it probably in the near future due to the economic fallout of the pandemic. Near term things are busy. Will it stay that way? Doubt it.

There is a little growth on the 737/777 side driving upgrade times down. However, once there is a merged seniority list there will be well over a thousand FOs ahead of you. Other than a handful of retirements, attrition has dried up.

I get the 777 growth, but is there any on the 737 fleet? I thought 400s were leaving and the 800s were going to SunCountry / Swift Air. Is Southern getting extra 800s?

ImmaAHole 04-18-2020 11:05 AM


Originally Posted by Fillmore Slim (Post 3035263)
Bingo! It's the reason contract captains on the G-5 // GLEX make $1000+ per day and have all their expenses covered......because they don't know when the next trip will cancel. We don't have a product to sell......no widgets to speak of. Atlas contracts everything out (mx, ground personal, loadmasters, flight attendants, etc). Hell, even our HQ in Purchase is rented space from Morgan Stanley, as is space for our sims. Atlas has no hard assets, except for the Pilots on the seniority list. It's quite brilliant actually, keep costs as low as possible so you can turn the lights off whenever it's in the best interest of management.

The pilots here can go anywhere at anytime. They are exceptional aviators and should be compensated accordingly.

Most of those contract guys also pay for their own recurrent training out of pocket.

Elevation 04-18-2020 01:29 PM


Originally Posted by akfrtdwg 57 (Post 3035031)
I would argue that if you expect people to accept inherent risk they need to be compensated for it. So we should be paid more than the other guys to offset said risk.

I agree. Filler.

atpcliff 04-18-2020 04:25 PM


Originally Posted by CRJJ (Post 3035273)
I get the 777 growth, but is there any on the 737 fleet? I thought 400s were leaving and the 800s were going to SunCountry / Swift Air. Is Southern getting extra 800s?

The -400s are going to Mesa. Sun Country is getting some of the new -800s that Amazon will be flying. I don't think Southern is losing any -800s. As of about two years ago, Southern was operating about 5 737s. They were programmed by DHL to get to 28? ASAP. Originally, Southern was only flying 737s for DHL. Then they started flying them for Amazon. I don't know Southern is trying to get more or not.

atpcliff 04-18-2020 04:42 PM


Originally Posted by heloguy (Post 3035105)
i have read through this thread, but my head is spinning as there is a lot of information. Does the below look accurate? Would you add anything significant to consider when choosing what to ask for?

767: 13 days off, 17 day trips, often split trips, oldest aircraft, mixed dom/int'l routes, no crew bunks, 3 yr upgrade
the schedules depend on your base. If you live in and are based in cvg, you can have trips of 0 days, by bidding reserve, and being home all the time. You go to the sim every 3 months to get your landings/takeoffs. An ont 767 pilot said they regularly are home during their trips, due to flights returning to ont and he lives in base.

777: 13 days off, 17 day trips, rarely split trips, newest aircraft, mostly int'l routes, ?? Crew bunks, 4 yr upgrade
they typically fly to a small number of airports, with none or very little charter. I think they typically are gone more days in a row than 747 pilots.

747: 13 days off, 17 day trips, some split trips, mid-aged aircraft, mostly int'l routes, has crew bunks, 4 yr upgrade
i have been mostly based in jfk/ord (and some hsv). I normally have a 17 day trip once in about 3-4 months. Most of my trips are 6-16 days. I have had a lot of 3, 4, 5 day trips and a few 2 and 1 day trips. If you live in and are based in mia, you can be home a lot. If you are based in jfk, anc or lax, you can be home in the middle of your trips if you live in base. I think the current upgrade is more like 5 years on the 747 at this moment.

also, it appears that although the 747 has the higher pay rates the 777 has higher credit for overall higher pay?
the credit hours are very random on the 747. We used to average about 74 credit hours/month, but that was long ago. I was paid guarantee for dec/jan/feb (i was on vacation for all of feb+). For mar, i was way over guarantee. I didn't do anything different in my schedule between dec/jan/mar...it is just random assignments by scheduling changing you from over guarantee to min pay per month. You can volunteer to work more days, and you may or may not end up working more. You can have an 85 hour bid line, and end up with 62 hours of credit. You can have a 62 hour bid line, and end up with 85 hours of credit.

thanks!

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