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Turbine1 09-09-2019 07:01 PM


Originally Posted by Atrasaty (Post 2884252)
Atlas Air would collapse within a week without a gateway program. Period.

That assumes the executives donít live in a bubble. They only know Atlas ran just fine with limited to no gateway from 92 to 2011. That itís no longer a pilot bear market doesnít factor. Theyíll save millions and new hires will continue to outpace attrition. Thereís no shortage of people wanting a crack at flying a 747 or 777. Till applications stop coming in they have everything to gain by losing gateway.

Atrasaty 09-09-2019 07:35 PM


Originally Posted by Turbine1 (Post 2884304)
That assumes the executives donít live in a bubble. They only know Atlas ran just fine with limited to no gateway from 92 to 2011. That itís no longer a pilot bear market doesnít factor. Theyíll save millions and new hires will continue to outpace attrition. Thereís no shortage of people wanting a crack at flying a 747 or 777. Till applications stop coming in they have everything to gain by losing gateway.

Not trying to be argumentative and my memory is directly proportional to my enthusiasm for this dumpster fire of an airline, i.e. Fading fast. From what I remember Atlas was all gateway, including the ALPA pilots based in STN by mid 07 ish and Polar were still using the travel bank system. Everyone was Gateway under this great amalgamated contract when it was shoved up our posteriors. It was a much smaller airline back then and now logistically 2000+ pilots trying to JS to work with virtually no domestic system of our own to utilize would be a disaster. Do you think Connie would be buying his guys tickets if he thought it wasn't necessary to keep his operation moving? The threat of removing gateway is just that, a threat to use as a bargaining chip. I say take it away..... we wouldn't last a week in business. They would lose everything by taking it away.

Edit to add. Pilot hating Hete at ATSG even provides tickets to ATI and Omni pilots. Legacy ABX never had travel but before they got the shaft they had a real airline contract and an extensive domestic network to get to work on. Hete is refusing to update their contract because he is a vengeful POS. By and large gateway/home basing/travel is the cost of doing business in this segment and built into the ACMI/CMI/charter/MOD contracts. It's not a benefit.....medical/retirement are benefits.

rv8builder 09-09-2019 09:00 PM


Originally Posted by City0090015 (Post 2884111)
Direct from the union that Atlas purposefully overflew hundreds of pilots .....

Reminds me of when Southern advised its pilots in 2012 that they had a new interpretation of the supplemental long-haul crew requirements- as in it's just fine to fly over 8 hours with only 2 pilots and over 12 with only three...

Fast forward a couple months, they had to publish another bulletin saying the FAA didn't agree with their interpretation after all (lol) and they had to self-disclose all pilots who violated the FAR.

Shady Shady Shady...

DC8DRIVER 09-09-2019 09:53 PM


Originally Posted by Atrasaty (Post 2884252)
Atlas Air would collapse within a week without a gateway program. Period.

Once there was this airine called DHL Airways. They were the sole provider of lift in the U. S. for DHL. Co-founder Larry Hillblom used to jumpseat on their planes. Fast forward to the 2000's and now the Germans own DHL and have bought Airborne (now ABX). Not to worry, though, DHL Airways (now called Astar) was owned 49% by DHL corporate and with 500+ pilots they wouldn't replace us. They COULDN'T replace us.

In 2010 Astar furloughed 400 pilots. In 2011 they ceased operations and put the rest of the 500+ pilots on the street. Their flying was taken over by ATI, ABX, Atlas, and others with little fanfare and no loss of sleep by the managements of all the entities involved.

In the aftermath, 5 Astar pilots had taken thier own lives due to the stresses of being discarded like yesterday's leftovers.
It can happen when you have soulless management.
Don't think it can't happen to you.

wjcandee 09-09-2019 10:25 PM


Originally Posted by Turbine1 (Post 2884166)
Word from some of our station managers is we're losing up to 9 of our most reliable 767's to ATI shortly. Looks like Amazon has reached the end of their patience.

Interesting rumour.

By Peak, ATI will have added 6 767-300s in 2019, and absorbed an increased tempo in Amazon non-peak flying. They will be adding at least 4 767-300s for Amazon next year.

Apparently, they have (or will have) sufficient pilots and support infrastructure and personnel to execute that flying; adding 9 aircraft very-rapidly on top of that would be a challenge. I don't suppose, however, that Amazon would try to transition a bunch of aircraft all at once.

And it is also possible that ABX could be called upon to operate some of them. Until Amazon increased the flying of the Amazon-dry-leased ABX 767-200s to support the ILN sort, ABX was looking at a reduction in hours for its pilots due to the loss of a couple of one/two-plane contracts. Now, it seems like its pilots are pretty-busy, and ABX is running more than six frames simultaneously for Amazon. (It looks more like 8.) However, given that at least one more non-Amazon/DHL customer has expressed an intent to switch carriers and idle at least one ABX aircraft, it seems like they could handle some more business.

I don't think any right-thinking person would wish to see Atlas lose any Amazon 767s due to concerns about performance. At some point, the shareholders have to demand a halt to Atlas's apparent strategy.

I also personally think (and maybe it's a pipe-dream) that Atlas could do a lot to improve relations by, contract or not, getting its house in order in Crew Scheduling/Operations. Making the commitment to clean house there and get things running like they do at any other successful carrier of Atlas's size, where pilots feel treated consistently like important assets, would be Job One if anybody were ever dumb enough to hand me the keys to the executive washroom.

FWIW, N1049A has been at ILN for a few days, but I assumed it was either for maintenance (odd but possible as AMES did work on the Atlas/DHL 767-200s) or to get ready for Atlas to start flying some ILN turns.

nitefreight 09-09-2019 10:30 PM

Before that, in 2001, there was an airline that flew red and green airplanes -- 41 DC-8s and 7 DC-10s (I'm sure you know who). Less than a year after getting the equivalent of the DHL contract, their evil money-grubbing parent company decided to convince the FAA to shut them down as an excuse to contract out all the work. 501 crewmembers were replace over the weekend by Ryan Int'l, Express.Net, World, Kalitta, Gemini, ICC and others. History repeats itself often in this ruthless business.

RyeMex 09-10-2019 03:15 AM


Originally Posted by Atrasaty (Post 2884252)
Atlas Air would collapse within a week without a gateway program. Period.

Maybe. However, that doesn't change the fact that management's position at the negotiating table for the past couple of years has been that Gateway will not be in the next CBA.

Lockheed 09-10-2019 05:46 AM


Originally Posted by Atrasaty (Post 2884320)
Not trying to be argumentative and my memory is directly proportional to my enthusiasm for this dumpster fire of an airline, i.e. Fading fast. From what I remember Atlas was all gateway, including the ALPA pilots based in STN by mid 07 ish and Polar were still using the travel bank system. Everyone was Gateway under this great amalgamated contract when it was shoved up our posteriors. It was a much smaller airline back then and now logistically 2000+ pilots trying to JS to work with virtually no domestic system of our own to utilize would be a disaster. Do you think Connie would be buying his guys tickets if he thought it wasn't necessary to keep his operation moving? The threat of removing gateway is just that, a threat to use as a bargaining chip. I say take it away..... we wouldn't last a week in business. They would lose everything by taking it away.

Edit to add. Pilot hating Hete at ATSG even provides tickets to ATI and Omni pilots. Legacy ABX never had travel but before they got the shaft they had a real airline contract and an extensive domestic network to get to work on. Hete is refusing to update their contract because he is a vengeful POS. By and large gateway/home basing/travel is the cost of doing business in this segment and built into the ACMI/CMI/charter/MOD contracts. It's not a benefit.....medical/retirement are benefits.

A most excellent post

Lockheed 09-10-2019 05:48 AM


Originally Posted by DC8DRIVER (Post 2884377)
Once there was this airine called DHL Airways. They were the sole provider of lift in the U. S. for DHL. Co-founder Larry Hillblom used to jumpseat on their planes. Fast forward to the 2000's and now the Germans own DHL and have bought Airborne (now ABX). Not to worry, though, DHL Airways (now called Astar) was owned 49% by DHL corporate and with 500+ pilots they wouldn't replace us. They COULDN'T replace us.

In 2010 Astar furloughed 400 pilots. In 2011 they ceased operations and put the rest of the 500+ pilots on the street. Their flying was taken over by ATI, ABX, Atlas, and others with little fanfare and no loss of sleep by the managements of all the entities involved.

In the aftermath, 5 Astar pilots had taken thier own lives due to the stresses of being discarded like yesterday's leftovers.
It can happen when you have soulless management.
Don't think it can't happen to you.

those were sad days indeed

Atrasaty 09-10-2019 06:36 AM


Originally Posted by RyeMex (Post 2884418)
Maybe. However, that doesn't change the fact that management's position at the negotiating table for the past couple of years has been that Gateway will not be in the next CBA.

My point is that it is a tactical position, a bargaining chip that in my opinion I being used to scare Crewmembers into pressuring the negotiators. My contention is that we cannot operate without it and they know that full well but hey.... It's a free joker card they think they can use.

Some great history raised on this thread that our colleagues who have less than a decade in the business would be well served researching it while making future career choices, updating log books and filling in airline apps. DHL/Airborne/Burlington/Orion etc etc etc. DC8 said "don't think it can't happen to you." I assert it WILL HAPPEN TO US. Regardless of the outcome of contract negotiations it is my opinion, and mine alone that in 3 years AAWH will exist but Atlas/Polar/Southern will bear little to no resemblance to the operation (or lack there of) that we see today. AAWH executives have NO interest in running an airline, it's too difficult for them. The big payday they got from the initial Amazon deal demonstrated the wealth they can accrue overnight by selling out. Our near retirement age former Nortwest flight ops mismanagement team are so far out of their depth it would be laughable if lives had not been already lost. I apologize for my bleak outlook, this is just my opinion and I really look forward to some more optimistic counter contentions.

Best of luck to all. WE are the union.


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