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Fillmore Slim 11-15-2019 03:08 PM


Originally Posted by Globemaster2827 (Post 2924426)
I hope any potential journalists reading these threads understand that this is a prevailing feeling among those pilots flying Amazon Prime cargo.... All pilots aren't of equal talent. They range from "Chuck Yeager" (what we joke about being "The Best") all the way down to people who need to change their careers.

Amazon pays less and the pilots are treated horribly. What happens is that most of the more talented pilots leave for better jobs much like you would. The result of this is that the Amazon competitors have stronger pilots on average - there are exceptions.

When the pilots leave they're replaced with less experienced pilots who upgrade to Captain and also those who are hired as "New Hires" as First Officers. Many of the New Hires have never flown Boeing Equipment. This requires years of training to master.

Most of them start at these companies with the goals to leave for better jobs like FedEx, Delta, UPS, American, United... etc. The ones with cleaner training/safety records leave after climbing the ladder and boosting their resumes. Amazon Prime carriers effectively pay to train them and then let them walk to go to competitors.

MOST of the pilots left are honestly good pilots but it creates scenarios where 2 people (or even 1) who are of the "Need A Career Change" variety end up in the same cockpit on the wrong day. Needless to say this is a Safety Issue. Management MUST have the "Career Change" pilots to properly staff the airline and are comfortable knowing that these accidents will happen as long as it turns a profit.

Society is comfortable with it as long as it's just 3 guys on a cargo plane who crash, but what about when it's your kid's elementary school? Nothing has changed since 3591. Nothing. More suing the pilots...


Unfortunately this is spot on.

PolarTiger 11-15-2019 06:17 PM

No one will be furloughed at Atlas. The few remaining that are able to leave, will leave. The company has managed to hire enough "unhireables" to slow attrition down, eventually to a stop. The time for action was in 2015 when the Union had the company by the balls, but greed divided this pilot group. Some pilots overwhelmingly volunteered to be Instructors and Check Airmen in an attempt to HELP the company train more new hires as attrition crippled the company. Some pilots volunteered to work on their days off and cashed in on lucrative overtime. As for the pilots that held their ground... they were too few and far outnumbered. You all stood in solidarity alright, but it was for the wrong side of the fence. We will all continue to pay for that mistake in 2020.

Upgrades will be far from the "2 years" new hires are being told today. I would say, 7-10 years is more likely.

Globemaster2827 11-16-2019 04:31 AM


Originally Posted by PolarTiger (Post 2924663)
No one will be furloughed at Atlas. The few remaining that are able to leave, will leave. The company has managed to hire enough "unhireables" to slow attrition down, eventually to a stop. The time for action was in 2015 when the Union had the company by the balls, but greed divided this pilot group. Some pilots overwhelmingly volunteered to be Instructors and Check Airmen in an attempt to HELP the company train more new hires as attrition crippled the company. Some pilots volunteered to work on their days off and cashed in on lucrative overtime. As for the pilots that held their ground... they were too few and far outnumbered. You all stood in solidarity alright, but it was for the wrong side of the fence. We will all continue to pay for that mistake in 2020.

Upgrades will be far from the "2 years" new hires are being told today. I would say, 7-10 years is more likely.

Attrition will continue at some pace... I know a buddy who's in the pool at FedEx. He's a 747 Captain.

3pointlanding 11-16-2019 07:23 AM

And he will be a Captain again in 2 or 3 years if he wishes

GoMissed 11-16-2019 07:37 AM


Originally Posted by Globemaster2827 (Post 2924426)
I hope any potential journalists reading these threads understand that this is a prevailing feeling among those pilots flying Amazon Prime cargo.... All pilots aren't of equal talent. They range from "Chuck Yeager" (what we joke about being "The Best") all the way down to people who need to change their careers.

Amazon pays less and the pilots are treated horribly. What happens is that most of the more talented pilots leave for better jobs much like you would. The result of this is that the Amazon competitors have stronger pilots on average - there are exceptions.

When the pilots leave they're replaced with less experienced pilots who upgrade to Captain and also those who are hired as "New Hires" as First Officers. Many of the New Hires have never flown Boeing Equipment. This requires years of training to master.

Most of them start at these companies with the goals to leave for better jobs like FedEx, Delta, UPS, American, United... etc. The ones with cleaner training/safety records leave after climbing the ladder and boosting their resumes. Amazon Prime carriers effectively pay to train them and then let them walk to go to competitors.

MOST of the pilots left are honestly good pilots but it creates scenarios where 2 people (or even 1) who are of the "Need A Career Change" variety end up in the same cockpit on the wrong day. Needless to say this is a Safety Issue. Management MUST have the "Career Change" pilots to properly staff the airline and are comfortable knowing that these accidents will happen as long as it turns a profit.

Society is comfortable with it as long as it's just 3 guys on a cargo plane who crash, but what about when it's your kid's elementary school? Nothing has changed since 3591. Nothing. More suing the pilots...

I hope the journalists reading this realize that you work for Atlas not Amazon. There are plenty of pilots at other airlines flying Amazon Prime contracts with decent pay and working conditions. If you want to bad mouth your employer, have at it.
Bad mouthing a company you do not work for and painting a false narrative like that is just wrong

The fact is, Amazon is moving the flying to a carrier with one of the better paying contracts in the ACMI industry currently.
Amazon has realized what Atlas hasnít. That pilot staffing is more important than cheapest bidder. A low bid is useless without somebody to fly the plane.
Thatís why Kalitta and ATI are growing.

Bungalow 11-16-2019 08:27 AM


Originally Posted by DC8DRIVER (Post 2924536)
I don't think he "leaves" in a glass house. And your argument about FedEx and UPS is backwards. In order for your quip to have made sense, the writer would have been denigrating FedEx and UPS while defending Atlas.

Furthermore, the writer is correct with his assertion that safety at Atlas is being compromised and is not doing so in favor of the union but in the interest of safety.

Anyone with with a legitimate concern for safety should at least, address those concerns thru the proper channels, including government agencies if necessary, and even discontinue operations if the problems are serious enough. If you have already done so, my hat is off to you.

Writing incendiary , half witted remarks on and internet board, doesnít do a thing towards enhancing safety. It however paints the author as an insensitive parrot, regurgitating tired self serving talking points.

Globemaster2827 11-16-2019 09:27 AM


Originally Posted by GoMissed (Post 2924864)
I hope the journalists reading this realize that you work for Atlas not Amazon. There are plenty of pilots at other airlines flying Amazon Prime contracts with decent pay and working conditions. If you want to bad mouth your employer, have at it.
Bad mouthing a company you do not work for and painting a false narrative like that is just wrong

The fact is, Amazon is moving the flying to a carrier with one of the better paying contracts in the ACMI industry currently.
Amazon has realized what Atlas hasnít. That pilot staffing is more important than cheapest bidder. A low bid is useless without somebody to fly the plane.
Thatís why Kalitta and ATI are growing.

My understanding is that it's true that ATI and Kalitta don't see the attrition that Atlas sees, because yall are happy with your contracts.

Globemaster2827 11-16-2019 09:28 AM


Originally Posted by Bungalow;2924887[B
]Anyone with with a legitimate concern for safety should at least, address those concerns thru the proper channels, including government agencies if necessary, and even discontinue operations if the problems are serious enough.[/B] If you have already done so, my hat is off to you.

Writing incendiary , half witted remarks on and internet board, doesnít do a thing towards enhancing safety. It however paints the author as an insensitive parrot, regurgitating tired self serving talking points.

That's been done. Many times.

No Land 3 11-16-2019 11:57 AM


Originally Posted by Globemaster2827 (Post 2924912)
My understanding is that it's true that ATI and Kalitta don't see the attrition that Atlas sees, because yall are happy with your contracts.

No bites, you should make another cast.

Elevation 11-16-2019 03:55 PM

Hello All,

I've been crunching safety numbers pretty hard. Atlas has some serious safety challenges, but it's not the quality of incoming pilots that is the problem.

The quality of pilots at the various Amazon contracting carriers doesn't vary as much as you think. Atlas has never made it to an average departures/accident in excess of 130000. This was the case when Atlas paid more than most places. Right now Atlas is around 84000 departures/accident.

To drive this point home ABX is performing more safely than Delta Airlines. The same pilot labor market pressures exist there. In fact, ABX was outperforming FedEx until 2013.

The real story of safety is more damning and less sexy. We are all variations on the same shade of average. The difference is training, safety and administrative infrastructure. None of us are good enough to think were able to out fly or out-command the threats that are building here.

The numbers also dont indicate better or worse pilots at different carriers. Fed Ex dramatically improved in performance in the early 2010s after implementing new programs. They had been a destination for many pilots for about ten years before that. It will take a real, coordinated effort to head off this coming accident at Atlas.

As for incendiary comments, I think it's entirely appropriate to discuss the facts. All of us are filing ASAPs, writing reports and joining safety organizations. No results are forthcoming.

Discussing the facts is appropriate. We haven't improved and we're proposing cuts to mx spending after we have already decreased departure and airframe specific maintenance spending by 33% over the last ten years.

I think another point worth considering is that the strain we're putting our system under for Amazon is exposing unrelated customers to risk. 3591 could have just as easily been an AMC flight with troops. The stresses are also materializing in our flights in Europe and Asia. In a real sense the push to staff cheap, domestic operations may be a factor when we crash in Taipei or Frankfurt.


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