Originally Posted by JonnyKnoxville
(Post 2969380)
It is
By the way, who is complaining? We can dig more deeply into history for the pathway forward. In the Peloponnesian war there is some great guidance, but ain't nobody got time for that here. We need to be rallied. There are loud voices calling for us to quit. Speak truthfully. Acknowledge out weaknesses and failures. Then focus us on the reason to fight. Find someone who speaks the same language as the crews. Quitting is catastrophic, but it's easy. You need to out-sell easy. |
Originally Posted by Elevation
(Post 2969393)
Thar did start to happen in late 1944. It was worse during the presidential election of 1864. McClellan was running as a defeatist candidate against Lincoln while thousands of union soldiers died due to inept leadership in a muddy hole during the siege of Parkesburg. The South was about to fold, but a surging candidate McClellan would have lead the Union to surrender. People just saw the terrible costs in their Ohio towns, not the hungry, barefoot, raggedy confederates. Sherman and Grant saved Lincoln and possibly the Union with their ruthless work in 64. They got the idea that we were winning to the American public. That saved Lincoln. Lincoln finished the damned war. In 1864 the whole outcome of the war came down to a gut check with the American public.
We can dig more deeply into history for the pathway forward. In the Peloponnesian war there is some great guidance, but ain't nobody got time for that here. We need to be rallied. There are loud voices calling for us to quit. Speak truthfully. Acknowledge out weaknesses and failures. Then focus us on the reason to fight. Find someone who speaks the same language as the crews. Quitting is catastrophic, but it's easy. You need to out-sell easy. I've always compared your struggle to The Vietnam War. You'll lose every court battle but the terrible cost enacted on the company through the "process", the press and through their own shareholders growing impatient will equal either a victory or a complete destruction of the company. So right now they win a court battle and people complain about their 1% in dues when they should've been at UPS 2 years ago. The press reads the complaining, reports on the picketing and the shareholders see the cancelling of contracts and parking of jets that are leased. Profits suffer and stock prices tank. The people who complain about their 1% eventually get the hint and move on as do the union supporters. As long as the pilot group never gives in the company will win court case after court case... And in the end they'll be left with nothing but a couple hundred company stooges and unhireables to fly 20% of the airplanes that they can crew which will result in cancelling of all the contracts with unhappy customers.... Or they can just pay you. Or you can give in because you want your 1% and be paid cents on the dollar like ACMI pilots are paid. The funny thing to me is that all these "1%" people came to Atlas thinking that there was a happy ending in this for them. War is Hell. |
Originally Posted by Globemaster2827
(Post 2969440)
Since we're talking wars...
I've always compared your struggle to The Vietnam War. You'll lose every court battle but the terrible cost enacted on the company through the "process", the press and through their own shareholders growing impatient will equal either a victory or a complete destruction of the company. So right now they win a court battle and people complain about their 1% in dues when they should've been at UPS 2 years ago. The press reads the complaining, reports on the picketing and the shareholders see the cancelling of contracts and parking of jets that are leased. Profits suffer and stock prices tank. The people who complain about their 1% eventually get the hint and move on as do the union supporters. As long as the pilot group never gives in the company will win court case after court case... And in the end they'll be left with nothing but a couple hundred company stooges and unhireables to fly 20% of the airplanes that they can crew which will result in cancelling of all the contracts with unhappy customers.... Or they can just pay you. Or you can give in because you want your 1% and be paid cents on the dollar like ACMI pilots are paid. The funny thing to me is that all these "1%" people came to Atlas thinking that there was a happy ending in this for them. War is Hell. Tons of history dorks here. I was inappropriate in comparing our struggle to armed conflict. It's easy to reference contemporary history since most pilots seem to know something about the subject. Fundamentally it's wrong to compare what we do to combat. It cheapens the idea of combat. For us it leads to emotion when we need to be clinical. It leads to some other bad ideas on our part too. I took the leap into war analogies. I was wrong to do so. I apologize. I shouldn't have lead us down this rabbit hole. |
Originally Posted by gypsypilot
(Post 2969348)
I think the loudest complainers are probably stuck at Atlas. They complain because they feel helpless to better themselves. Those that are capable of leaving are doing so. People used to leave primarily for the “big 5” but now are leaving for the regionals, other ACMI, LCC’s and even 135. The vocal complainers will also be the group that settles for another substandard contract.
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Originally Posted by Lumberg823
(Post 2969603)
The newest CA upgrade at DL was a 2 year on property guy so I don’t think being stuck is a reason to stay. Year 2 FO pay at the top 5 seems to be comparable to mid level CA ACMI pay so it would be a hit financially for a year but the financials should work out within a year to jump ship. I’m not there so I’m not judging, just offering a data point for anyone thinking they are helpless.
|
Originally Posted by Bungalow
(Post 2969328)
The loudest complainers point to examples of others leaving while continuously deterring new applicants from coming in. Yet they stay at Atlas.
Interesting dynamic. Some may say disingenuous. |
Originally Posted by Lumberg823
(Post 2969603)
The newest CA upgrade at DL was a 2 year on property guy so I don’t think being stuck is a reason to stay. Year 2 FO pay at the top 5 seems to be comparable to mid level CA ACMI pay so it would be a hit financially for a year but the financials should work out within a year to jump ship. I’m not there so I’m not judging, just offering a data point for anyone thinking they are helpless.
By the way, my class now has only 14 or 15 of the original 24 after less than 3.5 years. |
Originally Posted by Lumberg823
(Post 2969603)
The newest CA upgrade at DL was a 2 year on property guy so I don’t think being stuck is a reason to stay. Year 2 FO pay at the top 5 seems to be comparable to mid level CA ACMI pay so it would be a hit financially for a year but the financials should work out within a year to jump ship. I’m not there so I’m not judging, just offering a data point for anyone thinking they are helpless.
Once you upgrade you're making around $100k a year more at FedEx than Atlas and probably $150k once you hit widebody. So once I upgrade I'll be making up for the money I lost on first year pay literally every year and then some. |
I was an 8yr Atlas 767 Captain, now at FedEx for just under a year. Here are the facts, I took home about $2,600 every two weeks at Atlas. Maybe $3,100 on the big check only because of some perdiem, I would break guarantee by less than 20 hours per year so this was a very truthful and consistent scenario, I was funding my 401k at 15%.
Now at FIRST YEAR FedEx widebody Pay, I take home about $1,900 every two weeks, maybe $2,600 when there is some per diem. They are funding my 401K at 9%, (I paused my contribution for the first year) and I have a pension, superior health care, lifetime disability insurance, and fantastic schedule flexibility (drop, trade, pick up). I can't quantify the mental health benefits of being in a much more positive atmosphere, where the goal is to go do a job well, rather than defend from an all out, fight to the death war being waged by management. |
Originally Posted by Gloriousprofits
(Post 2969759)
I was an 8yr Atlas 767 Captain, now at FedEx for just under a year. Here are the facts, I took home about $2,600 every two weeks at Atlas. Maybe $3,100 on the big check only because of some perdiem, I would break guarantee by less than 20 hours per year so this was a very truthful and consistent scenario, I was funding my 401k at 15%.
Now at FIRST YEAR FedEx widebody Pay, I take home about $1,900 every two weeks, maybe $2,600 when there is some per diem. They are funding my 401K at 9%, (I paused my contribution for the first year) and I have a pension, superior health care, lifetime disability insurance, and fantastic schedule flexibility (drop, trade, pick up). I can't quantify the mental health benefits of being in a much more positive atmosphere, where the goal is to go do a job well, rather than defend from an all out, fight to the death war being waged by management. It baffles me that people sit on the fence with people telling them these things.... People need to be doing whatever they can to get to a Legacy, FedEx, or UPS right now. Let Atlas management figure it out on their own. |
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