Add to that Kalitta Charters II, They also showed so much promise and so much potential. They are sinking quick

They just voted their union down at K2. From what I'm told, two of their own pilots, were the ones that worked hard with management to break up the union. K2 guys will be sorry they voted it down.

It amazes me to read that posters are trying to blame management for the events leading up to this crash. Short of written, direct evidence, indicating that senior management mandated pilots be forced through training, followed by instructor testimony that grades were altered upon direction of said management, they will never be held accountable. Nor should they ever, as I don’t think they are the least bit liable.

The fault falls squarely on the shoulders of the training department, FAA oversight, and the Union. From the director, to the sim instructors, to the check airmen, they all worked in concert, innocently enough, to put these 2 online. I have seen this at other airlines. It starts simply enough. Due to lack of pilots, Less capable and mature pilots are hired. Training program is not designed for these sub par pilots.Training director sees large percentage of failures, as training program has failed to adjust to the way unseasoned and sub par pilots learn. This effects hiring and budgets. Mandate comes down to, “train to proficiency. With unlimited sims, just about anyone can be trained to take the check-ride. Once through that gate it is many hours of IOE and they are deemed proficient to fly. At that moment they are probably ready to fly as long as nothing they haven’t seen multiple times in training happens. Put that pilot online for 6 months with double crews where said pilot never flys and bam! You are back to where you started in no time. Pilot goes to training again and cycle starts over. Where is the FAA oversight in all of this? Where is the Union oversight in al of this?

AAWW is far from the only airline with this problem. Our unions need to step in and stop this because clearly, the companies, nor the FAA has any desire to do so. For the director of training to step into this would probably result in only a change of the director. There are simple albeit costly solutions to this problem. I wonder how many incidents and accidents will occur before they are implemented. Good luck to us all.

I couldn’t disagree more and submit that this is the best thing for K2 pilots. Their Union has done nothing for them. DK is a wise man, who I hope, sees this opportunity to negotiate a deal favorable to both parties. If he doesn’t, then after the required waiting period they vote in another Union. Nothing was being accomplished by 1224 so they have lost nothing by leaving.

I agree with some of what you said, but disagree with absolving management of responsibility as well. I quoted the part where you detail management's role. Managers fail to compete for pilots by keeping wages low and applying pressure to the training heads. The failures we saw were across the entire system. This includes the instructors, directors, union, individual pilots and managers.

Unbelievable

Yeah. Don't take the bait, though.

You know how you can't stand it when an Atlas pilot makes any comments on the Kalitta operation? Well, have a look in the mirror.

What you may not understand, as you bash the union at Atlas, is that the union USED TO HAVE a rep on the interview board. The union WAS involved in the selection process. But the very same Dir of Training who just got "retired" summarily kicked the union out of that process when negotiations took a testy turn.

As for the union being involved in the training of weaker pilots, the reps can only work with what is not COVERED UP. If the company and/or student don't ask for help from the union, then why should the union share any blame?

The truth is, Atlas execs will be LUCKY if there is not a criminal investigation following the NTSB report. I can pretty much guarantee you there is a whole team of lawyers out there preparing their case as we speak.

At Southern a 777 Captain had the head of Southern Training Department deadheading with him. He told the operating Captain "I hope that you are looking for another job, because things are going down the drain".

i suspect MaxJet was planting a nugget in this thread to get everyone who sees themselves as the Union's enforcer to start shouting-down people and insisting on gross simplifications. His game is to make us look silly. That's why he didn't post his comments in the related safety thread. The more we start ranting, the sillier we look.

Management certainly bares the lion's share of blame for the actions of departments and personnel they control. We all could have done more, however.

Any organization isalways in a process of self correction. Our exco has and continues to make mistakes, and some of the members are better than others. They threaten to fire me from my union positions on a regular basis (most recently for asking about safety programs on our Facebook site) and focus on maintaining social order at the expense of delivering real results. Even with all that, I think they are better today than they were a year ago or two years ago. So, yeah, we screw the pooc . We're improving and correcting though. That's more than I can say for other elements, like management.