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New contract in the works?

Old 07-15-2022, 03:26 PM
  #151  
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Originally Posted by zerozero View Post
The union has spoken out, they welcome all new crew members hired under existing labor law. The union is does not support any further loosening of labor law.

The Aussies are welcomed at every new hire dinner hosted by the union just like all the other new hire pilots.

And just to correct the part in bold above: The Aussies are not cheaper, nor are they outsourced. They are "in house" union pilots with the same pay and benefits as any American.

An example of cheaper foreign outsourced labor is exactly what the old Stansted based AACS crews were and something we should always be prepared to fight against if the company ever proposes an offshore base again.
I think Zero is trying to say that these pilots, once hired, are our equals. Equals in pay, protection, etc. So from that standpoint they don't undermine us. That much I agree with. The pilots are not undermining us.

Holding recruiting events in Australia when there are pilots to be found in the US is an abuse of E3 visas. When times become hard again, there will be a lot of Aussies holding seniority here while Americans are on the street. Even if you say that lower labor costs are good for American shareholders, you have to ignore a number of other things.

But let's all back up another step. We fly Qantas routes out of HNL. There are Aussies who could be flying there without jobs, in part, because of us. So fair is fair. We can't bemoan Aussies here when we're flying routes that would otherwise have Australian crews on them.

Our recent, recruiting road shows are a departure from normal. We had plenty of Aussies find us and come to work here before these. This is new, and it's a maneuver to bridge a short-term staffing shortage.

The problem isn't the Australians; it's our recent maneuvers in Australia.

Last edited by Elevation; 07-15-2022 at 03:56 PM.
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Old 07-15-2022, 05:48 PM
  #152  
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Originally Posted by Elevation View Post
I think Zero is trying to say that these pilots, once hired, are our equals. Equals in pay, protection, etc. So from that standpoint they don't undermine us. That much I agree with. The pilots are not undermining us.

Holding recruiting events in Australia when there are pilots to be found in the US is an abuse of E3 visas. When times become hard again, there will be a lot of Aussies holding seniority here while Americans are on the street. Even if you say that lower labor costs are good for American shareholders, you have to ignore a number of other things.

But let's all back up another step. We fly Qantas routes out of HNL. There are Aussies who could be flying there without jobs, in part, because of us. So fair is fair. We can't bemoan Aussies here when we're flying routes that would otherwise have Australian crews on them.

Our recent, recruiting road shows are a departure from normal. We had plenty of Aussies find us and come to work here before these. This is new, and it's a maneuver to bridge a short-term staffing shortage.

The problem isn't the Australians; it's our recent maneuvers in Australia.
I may be the protagonist of this topic but contracting with QF is not the same as hiring foreign pilots. We fly for companies all over the world, but we are an American company. We operate a type they don’t operate, and perform a function they can not perform.

Foreign pilots don’t perform any functions that domestic pilots can’t. An apples-to-apples would be if we operated QF metal on QF routes with US pilots.

Again I’d like to affirm that the pilots are not the problem, the practice is the problem. The seniority list outrage would be out of control if we furloughed and kept foreign pilots at work. But somehow it’s ok now?
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Old 07-15-2022, 07:49 PM
  #153  
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Originally Posted by notthesame View Post
I may be the protagonist of this topic but contracting with QF is not the same as hiring foreign pilots. We fly for companies all over the world, but we are an American company. We operate a type they don’t operate, and perform a function they can not perform.

Foreign pilots don’t perform any functions that domestic pilots can’t. An apples-to-apples would be if we operated QF metal on QF routes with US pilots.

Again I’d like to affirm that the pilots are not the problem, the practice is the problem. The seniority list outrage would be out of control if we furloughed and kept foreign pilots at work. But somehow it’s ok now?
Then you have clearly missed his point….
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Old 07-15-2022, 09:34 PM
  #154  
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Originally Posted by notthesame View Post
I may be the protagonist of this topic but contracting with QF is not the same as hiring foreign pilots. We fly for companies all over the world, but we are an American company. We operate a type they don’t operate, and perform a function they can not perform.

Foreign pilots don’t perform any functions that domestic pilots can’t. An apples-to-apples would be if we operated QF metal on QF routes with US pilots.

Again I’d like to affirm that the pilots are not the problem, the practice is the problem. The seniority list outrage would be out of control if we furloughed and kept foreign pilots at work. But somehow it’s ok now?
Agree about the pilots. Also you're not the protagonist here, you're raising really good points.

So let's talk about whether there's an apples to apples comparison. Years ago when we started flying these routes, QF was flying their own 747s on these very routes. They were QF 747s, flown by QF crews on QF routes. For years afterwards QF pilots weren't very happy to see us because we displaced Australian crews from flying Australian (QF) routes. So when we talk about losing pilot slots to Australians, we have to acknowledge that we did the same thing to Australian pilots. Australian pilots had work. We showed up. There was less work for Australians. It's likely we helped QF get out of the 747 world because we kept moving these planes on these routes.

This is why continuation of "normal" for us is okay to me. Previously Australian pilots that sought us out would get hired with the E3 program, and we'd fly QF routes. For each Aussie that lost a job flying 747s from HNL, there were more than a few who had been coming here because our operations fit their particular life. That was an ethical situation that seemed fair to me. Now we're flirting with change. We're going on recruiting road-shows in Australia, and this is an attempt to find a cheap bridge from our labor situation today to when there will be pilots on the street during the next economic downturn. That puts an inappropriate burden on American aviators the next time there's a round of mergers followed by a recession.

Even in this context, I can live with things because we fly those QF routes. Greater change is on the horizon, however. We tend to form tribes and view other pilots as enemies. That's rarely productive. The time to survey and highlight coming trends is now.

Some of our friends at FedEx may have some insight about this. We're in Memphis, and they're in contract negotiations. Similar issues have to have been discussed by some of their brains behind the scenes.

PS: Sorry if I'm repeating myself. I'm struggling with editing today.

Last edited by Elevation; 07-15-2022 at 09:55 PM.
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Old 07-15-2022, 09:54 PM
  #155  
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Originally Posted by Elevation View Post
Some of our friends at FedEx may have some insight about this. We're in Memphis and they're in contract negotiations. Similar issues have to have been discussed by some of their brains behind the scenes.

Aren’t the pilots making money (something about a lump sum payable) as long as we have an active contract with FedEx?


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Old 07-15-2022, 10:49 PM
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Originally Posted by jbtc13029 View Post
Aren’t the pilots making money (something about a lump sum payable) as long as we have an active contract with FedEx?


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I believe so. We're not saving FedEx labor costs today. What I'm not certain about is the effect we're having on their negotiating leverage. The specifics are probably a MEC to MEC (E-board) type of thing and not really something to be aired out in public.
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Old 07-15-2022, 10:56 PM
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Originally Posted by jbtc13029 View Post
Aren’t the pilots making money (something about a lump sum payable) as long as we have an active contract with FedEx?


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We get a small check every once in a while, but not worth having our jobs outsourced.
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Old 07-16-2022, 06:01 AM
  #158  
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Originally Posted by Elevation View Post
So let's talk about whether there's an apples to apples comparison. Years ago when we started flying these routes, QF was flying their own 747s on these very routes. They were QF 747s, flown by QF crews on QF routes. For years afterwards QF pilots weren't very happy to see us because we displaced Australian crews from flying Australian (QF) routes. So when we talk about losing pilot slots to Australians, we have to acknowledge that we did the same thing to Australian pilots. Australian pilots had work. We showed up. There was less work for Australians.
Years back I asked a QF supervisor why we were flying for QF when they had plenty of 747 pilots. I’d heard the standard line that they couldn’t carry HazMat. What I was told was that while QF had the pilots they didn’t have any 747 freighters. To maintain the 2 plane schedule would take a third airplane. It wouldn’t make sense financially to have a third plane site around and only flying every other month or so. Whereas Atlas has plenty of airframes and if one of the dedicated QF planes is out of services for a while Atlas can just use another plane. Just make sure you get all your bug bombs in HNL.
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Old 07-16-2022, 06:12 AM
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Originally Posted by notthesame View Post
This is erroneous. They are cheaper and are outsourced. The company is holding recruiting events IN AUSTRALIA. The company is sponsoring the visas. How is that not out sourcing? The company is doing that because the current pay rates are insufficient to attract members of the domestic work force, not because Australian pilots posses superior skills or because of some lack of US pilots.

Here is a quote directly from the US CIS website (emphasis added):

The E-3 classification applies only to nationals of Australia. You must be coming to the United States solely to perform services in a specialty occupation.

This is the definition of foreign outsourcing. Just because they're union members doesn't make it not outsourcing.
I don't think you understand what "cheaper" and "outsourced" mean.

Whether or not the company is abusing the E3 visa process is a separate matter.

But the Aussies are being hired IN HOUSE under the same contract stipulations as every other Atlas crew member. They are NOT working at lower rates or reporting to a different organization. The latter case would be the definition of cheaper and outsourced.

The sudden panic of furloughs at Atlas is almost laughable. We have been deliberately under staffed since 2016. And as I've pointed out in other threads, the only time Atlas has furloughed historically, has been during contract negotiations as an intimidation tactic.

Some of us have actually been here long enough to see what it's like to train Capt upgrades for crew members not listed on the master seniority list; we've sat next to foreign crews who were hired by another organization and did actually perform the same job for less money and benefits.

This is not the same thing. Everyone would be well advised to tamp down their jingoistic fear mongering and concentrate on keeping the company managers and executives honest.
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Old 07-16-2022, 08:50 AM
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Originally Posted by zerozero View Post

This is not the same thing. Everyone would be well advised to tamp down their jingoistic fear mongering and concentrate on keeping the company managers and executives honest.
This is exactly what we're talking about here. No longer are there a few Aussies around who sought Atlas out because it suited their lifestyle. Management is now actively recruiting from overseas to avoid having to up compensation to hire domestically.

Just because it was worse before doesn't make what they're doing now OK. What percentage of the seniority list can foreign workers make up before its a problem? Would you be OK with 10%? 20%? 90%? By your reasoning, we could have a seniority list consisting of 100% foreign outsourced pilots as long as they are not hired under different compensation agreements.

Regarding QF/FedEx; If they have problems with subcontracting to us, then those are their problems and they should address them. Let's not forget that we routinely subcontract flying to Kalitta, Western Global etc etc. As far as I know, QF isn't hiring American's and FedEx isn't sponsoring visas.
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