Go Back  Airline Pilot Central Forums > Airline Pilot Forums > Cargo > Atlas/Polar
ALPA shutting down the E3 Pilot Program ? >

ALPA shutting down the E3 Pilot Program ?

Notices

ALPA shutting down the E3 Pilot Program ?

Old 06-05-2022, 08:32 PM
  #51  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined APC: Mar 2020
Posts: 186
Default

Originally Posted by dera View Post
As someone with actual experience in this, you are 100% wrong.
Have you applied elsewhere?

It's clearly not substandard for a large majority of pilots.
Actual experience in what? Union negotiations? You mean to tell me that some hapless pilot group put you in charge of negotiations when you hold the firm belief that an adequately staffed airline is the best hope of gaining a much improved contract?

You told me I'm wrong when I said that we're more likely to get contract improvements when we're inadequately staffed compared to adequately staffed so you must therefore take the opposite position.

Maybe if we drop the 1500 hour rule and start putting 250 hour pilots in our heavies and then lift all restrictions on hiring foreign pilots then the company will decide to pay us more... just because. Because they're feeling generous maybe? This is what you think?

How have you possibly made the determination that our contract is "not substandard for a large majority of pilots"? Are a majority of all pilots trying to get hired at Atlas? If so, why aren't we adequately staffed already?

Do you ever think through the things you say?
mcfadden is offline  
Old 06-05-2022, 08:47 PM
  #52  
In a land of unicorns
 
Joined APC: Apr 2014
Position: Whale FO
Posts: 6,272
Default

Originally Posted by mcfadden View Post
Actual experience in what? Union negotiations? You mean to tell me that some hapless pilot group put you in charge of negotiations when you hold the firm belief that an adequately staffed airline is the best hope of gaining a much improved contract?

You told me I'm wrong when I said that we're more likely to get contract improvements when we're inadequately staffed compared to adequately staffed so you must therefore take the opposite position.

Maybe if we drop the 1500 hour rule and start putting 250 hour pilots in our heavies and then lift all restrictions on hiring foreign pilots then the company will decide to pay us more... just because. Because they're feeling generous maybe? This is what you think?

How have you possibly made the determination that our contract is "not substandard for a large majority of pilots"? Are a majority of all pilots trying to get hired at Atlas? If so, why aren't we adequately staffed already?

Do you ever think through the things you say?
I could start listing the logical fallacies on your post, but I think there is a max limit on post length.

Yes, union negotiations. I can tell you have no clue what you are talking about. I'd be happy to give you some pointers if you ever end up flying with me. You know, as someone who has been there.

As you can see if you paid any attention, the pilots they are hiring right now are very qualified guys, tons of former Cathay 747 pilots and so on. We are not talking about starting to hire 250 hour pilots here. Your straw man misses the point by a mile or two.

I have made the determination that our contract is "not substandard for a large majority of pilots" because of the fact, that large majority of our pilots are not going anywhere. If you look at the resignation matrix, over 90% of attrition is years 1 and 2. After that, hardly anyone leaves. If the contract was so bad as you say it is, we would have a much wider spread of resignations. This is not happening. That is also why you are not going anywhere, you are all hat, no cattle in this discussion.

Do we have room for improvement? Absolutely. Is it appropriate for you to call other pilots names because they do not agree with you? H*ll no. This place works for a lot of people, and stating so does not do jack for your perceived agenda of trying to keep pilots away. Nor does it make anyone a recruiter, or management, or whatever label you wish to put upon them.

I'll be happy to keep referring good people here, because if your life situation suits this job, it is likely the best flying job out there. No-one else gets even close.
dera is offline  
Old 06-06-2022, 11:32 AM
  #53  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined APC: Mar 2020
Posts: 186
Default

Originally Posted by dera View Post
I could start listing the logical fallacies on your post, but I think there is a max limit on post length.

Yes, union negotiations. I can tell you have no clue what you are talking about. I'd be happy to give you some pointers if you ever end up flying with me. You know, as someone who has been there.

As you can see if you paid any attention, the pilots they are hiring right now are very qualified guys, tons of former Cathay 747 pilots and so on. We are not talking about starting to hire 250 hour pilots here. Your straw man misses the point by a mile or two.

I have made the determination that our contract is "not substandard for a large majority of pilots" because of the fact, that large majority of our pilots are not going anywhere. If you look at the resignation matrix, over 90% of attrition is years 1 and 2. After that, hardly anyone leaves. If the contract was so bad as you say it is, we would have a much wider spread of resignations. This is not happening. That is also why you are not going anywhere, you are all hat, no cattle in this discussion.

Do we have room for improvement? Absolutely. Is it appropriate for you to call other pilots names because they do not agree with you? H*ll no. This place works for a lot of people, and stating so does not do jack for your perceived agenda of trying to keep pilots away. Nor does it make anyone a recruiter, or management, or whatever label you wish to put upon them.

I'll be happy to keep referring good people here, because if your life situation suits this job, it is likely the best flying job out there. No-one else gets even close.
Lots of big talk but little substance from you. The Atlas contract is substandard. It's irrelevant how many senior people are staying. A standard and a determination of where a contract falls in comparison to that standard isn't based on popular opinion or how many people are leaving. A standard is not subjective like you think it is. Based on the numbers, the Atlas contract is substandard in comparison to other larger airlines flying similar equipment. But as a company man I'm sure you believe the standard is based on the Kalitta, Omni, and Mesa contracts.

Let's get back to your claim that we're more likely to get contract improvements when we're adequately staffed compared to inadequately staffed. I believe the opposite and the reason is that a company that is inadequately staffed is more likely to improve a contract to retain and hire more pilot to become adequately staffed (duh).

What's your reasoning for why a company is more likely to improve a contract when it is adequately staffed?
mcfadden is offline  
Old 06-06-2022, 12:29 PM
  #54  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined APC: Mar 2022
Position: Part time employee
Posts: 130
Default

Originally Posted by mcfadden View Post
Lots of big talk but little substance from you. The Atlas contract is substandard. It's irrelevant how many senior people are staying. A standard and a determination of where a contract falls in comparison to that standard isn't based on popular opinion or how many people are leaving. A standard is not subjective like you think it is. Based on the numbers, the Atlas contract is substandard in comparison to other larger airlines flying similar equipment. But as a company man I'm sure you believe the standard is based on the Kalitta, Omni, and Mesa contracts.

Let's get back to your claim that we're more likely to get contract improvements when we're adequately staffed compared to inadequately staffed. I believe the opposite and the reason is that a company that is inadequately staffed is more likely to improve a contract to retain and hire more pilot to become adequately staffed (duh).

What's your reasoning for why a company is more likely to improve a contract when it is adequately staffed?
You are such a misery

Many years ago I was sailing with family and friends in the Virgin Islands, we joined a nice British family for cocktails one night. Their adorable little 5 year old daughter was doing some serious whining and her mother chided her with ďYour such a miseryĒ.

Why do you spend so much energy convincing yourself and attempting to convince everyone else that AAWW is such a substandard place? As others have suggested, move on if itís sucks so bad.

There are a ton of folks that have made this place a career, or who believe they have it pretty good here, why resort to criticism and name calling? What do you gain from this, other then sharing your misery.

Internet chatter has existed such as this for a long time at Atlas, as well as just about any other outfit. I actually know the number one pilot at UPS, he loves the paycheck but hates the company. Really nothing new here, the vocal minority makes a lot of noise, while the most content really donít have much to say.
Atlasvet is offline  
Old 06-06-2022, 12:44 PM
  #55  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined APC: Mar 2020
Posts: 186
Default

Originally Posted by Atlasvet View Post
You are such a misery

Many years ago I was sailing with family and friends in the Virgin Islands, we joined a nice British family for cocktails one night. Their adorable little 5 year old daughter was doing some serious whining and her mother chided her with ďYour such a miseryĒ.

Why do you spend so much energy convincing yourself and attempting to convince everyone else that AAWW is such a substandard place? As others have suggested, move on if itís sucks so bad.

There are a ton of folks that have made this place a career, or who believe they have it pretty good here, why resort to criticism and name calling? What do you gain from this, other then sharing your misery.

Internet chatter has existed such as this for a long time at Atlas, as well as just about any other outfit. I actually know the number one pilot at UPS, he loves the paycheck but hates the company. Really nothing new here, the vocal minority makes a lot of noise, while the most content really donít have much to say.
We have a substandard contract and it makes it less likely that we will see contract improvements by encouraging others to come here. If we had a standard or better contract, I wouldn't care. It's very simple. Or do you also think that being adequately staffed makes it more likely that we will see contract improvements like dera believes?

I've never once said that I don't like it here or that I want to leave.

BTW, it's "you're", not "your". "You're such a misery".
mcfadden is offline  
Old 06-06-2022, 01:37 PM
  #56  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined APC: Mar 2022
Position: Part time employee
Posts: 130
Default

Originally Posted by mcfadden View Post
We have a substandard contract and it makes it less likely that we will see contract improvements by encouraging others to come here. If we had a standard or better contract, I wouldn't care. It's very simple. Or do you also think that being adequately staffed makes it more likely that we will see contract improvements like dera believes?

I've never once said that I don't like it here or that I want to leave.

BTW, it's "you're", not "your". "You're such a misery".
Thanks for pointing out the obvious grammar issue, Capt Obvious.

I think that a better situation would be for the company to be at a level close to full staffing, but not quite there. This way folks that like Xdays and outbases could still soak up a little gravy and the rest could stay home.

There could be a lot more positive discussions regarding how to function better with the company requirements and scheduling, e.g. a PBS system (we had it at one point, it has advantages). Or perhaps the question ďAre our bases even necessary?Ē

Encouraging folks to leave or stay away may be detrimental for two reasons;

You wonít see as many highly qualified folks
It cost money that could be used for improvements
Atlasvet is offline  
Old 06-06-2022, 01:53 PM
  #57  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined APC: Mar 2020
Posts: 186
Default

Originally Posted by Atlasvet View Post
Thanks for pointing out the obvious grammar issue, Capt Obvious.

I think that a better situation would be for the company to be at a level close to full staffing, but not quite there. This way folks that like Xdays and outbases could still soak up a little gravy and the rest could stay home.

There could be a lot more positive discussions regarding how to function better with the company requirements and scheduling, e.g. a PBS system (we had it at one point, it has advantages). Or perhaps the question ďAre our bases even necessary?Ē

Encouraging folks to leave or stay away may be detrimental for two reasons;

You wonít see as many highly qualified folks
It cost money that could be used for improvements
I doubt it was obvious to you.

No, being "close to full staffing" does not make it more likely that the company will make contract improvements compared to having inadequate staffing.
mcfadden is offline  
Old 06-06-2022, 02:21 PM
  #58  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined APC: Mar 2022
Position: Part time employee
Posts: 130
Default

Originally Posted by mcfadden View Post
I doubt it was obvious to you.

No, being "close to full staffing" does not make it more likely that the company will make contract improvements compared to having inadequate staffing.
It is about quality of life, which you canít seem to comprehend.

You just canít help being contrary (and insulting), stay in your misery. I am done here.
Atlasvet is offline  
Old 06-06-2022, 02:42 PM
  #59  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined APC: Mar 2020
Posts: 186
Default

Originally Posted by Atlasvet View Post
It is about quality of life, which you canít seem to comprehend.

You just canít help being contrary (and insulting), stay in your misery. I am done here.
Yes, better staffing means better quality of life. The problem with your type of thinking is that you (and people like you) want to encourage people to come here before we've achieved a contract that at least meets the standard. Have you ever considered that you could have a standard or better contract AND improved staffing levels? To have both requires the standard contract first and better staffing second. You'll never get the standard contract if the company is able, with your help, to obtain adequate staffing with a substandard contract.

I'm not miserable. In fact, I'm very happy and enjoy working at Atlas. You just prefer to mischaracterize my argument as angry ramblings from a miserable person so that you can dismiss it without having to make a reasonable counter argument.
mcfadden is offline  
Old 06-06-2022, 09:44 PM
  #60  
Line Holder
 
Joined APC: Dec 2019
Posts: 96
Default

Originally Posted by dera View Post
I could start listing the logical fallacies on your post, but I think there is a max limit on post length.

Yes, union negotiations. I can tell you have no clue what you are talking about. I'd be happy to give you some pointers if you ever end up flying with me. You know, as someone who has been there.

As you can see if you paid any attention, the pilots they are hiring right now are very qualified guys, tons of former Cathay 747 pilots and so on. We are not talking about starting to hire 250 hour pilots here. Your straw man misses the point by a mile or two.

I have made the determination that our contract is "not substandard for a large majority of pilots" because of the fact, that large majority of our pilots are not going anywhere. If you look at the resignation matrix, over 90% of attrition is years 1 and 2. After that, hardly anyone leaves. If the contract was so bad as you say it is, we would have a much wider spread of resignations. This is not happening. That is also why you are not going anywhere, you are all hat, no cattle in this discussion.

Do we have room for improvement? Absolutely. Is it appropriate for you to call other pilots names because they do not agree with you? H*ll no. This place works for a lot of people, and stating so does not do jack for your perceived agenda of trying to keep pilots away. Nor does it make anyone a recruiter, or management, or whatever label you wish to put upon them.

I'll be happy to keep referring good people here, because if your life situation suits this job, it is likely the best flying job out there. No-one else gets even close.
I've been at Atlas for 2 years now on the 76. Before this I had my own business and also did the different odd job here and there. I have a wife and a couple of kids.

Atlas is a great fit. The company is listening more, Atlas is in a solid niche on its own, and the flying is nothing short of interesting. The contract is decent and you can make money (I broke six figures comfortably in both years.) 0 standby commuting and we now have a solid LTD package. I'm choosing to make a career of this place. I do have the qualifications and am young enough to go to Delta or United (and I think I'd have a good shot at getting a class date at either given my background) but find myself satisfied here.

Grass is greener...
Lionhaart is offline  
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
Shortfall2105
FedEx
5
08-01-2017 07:56 AM
GW258
Mergers and Acquisitions
270
09-30-2012 08:48 AM
Flyby1206
Regional
138
06-29-2009 10:59 AM
Flyby1206
Major
9
06-17-2009 11:23 AM
flyharm
Mergers and Acquisitions
0
02-18-2008 07:49 PM

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Thread Tools
Search this Thread