Airline Pilot Central Forums

Airline Pilot Central Forums (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/)
-   Aviation Law (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/aviation-law/)
-   -   Possible Pilot Deviation (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/aviation-law/109714-possible-pilot-deviation.html)

PerfInit 12-05-2017 07:36 PM

If a CFI was with you, he may be culpable as well. Even though you were the PIC (as sole manipulator of the controls). Technically the CFI was also the PIC, being responsible for the overall safety of the flight. Your CFI should also file a ASRS report as he probably has more experience and should have been more aware. Was there a NMAC filed also? This could be serious if loss of ATC separation occurred with an IFR aircraft.

MasterOfPuppets 12-05-2017 07:39 PM

The first thing you need to do is file a NASA report right now, not tomorrow but right now, there is a time limit but I can't remember what it is. Just remember **** happens its no big deal, all of us have filled at least one out. At the airlines it is called an FSAP and we have all filled out dozens.

The second thing you need to do is ask your flight instructor why he/she didn't tell you what a NASA report was and promptly fire him/her. You don't need to be giving that person any more of your money because they aren't teaching you.

Third let the flight school know what happened and they will be able to assist you with the NASA report. If they can't help you with the NASA report find a new flight school. Also if they don't seem to care that their flight instructor had a pilot deviation and didn't report it, then find a new flight school they do not deserve anymore of your money.

Fourth sleep well you are not in trouble unless you DON'T file a NASA report.

Fifth Im not joking if your flight instructor seriously did not tell you about a NASA report, help you fill one out, and did not fill one out themselves then you need a new flight instructor.

WesternSkies 12-05-2017 09:10 PM

Some bad information of the NASA report here and the function.

Quote:

5. PROHIBITION AGAINST THE USE OF REPORTS FOR ENFORCEMENT PURPOSES
Background. Designed and operated by NASA, the NASA ASRS security system ensures the confidentiality and anonymity of the reporter, and other parties as appropriate, involved in a reported occurrence or incident. The FAA will not seek, and NASA will not release or make available to the FAA, any report filed with NASA under the ASRS or any other information that might reveal the identity of any party involved in an occurrence or incident reported under the ASRS. There has been no breach of confidentiality in more than 34 years of the ASRS under NASA management.
Regulatory Restrictions. Title 14 of the Code of Federal Regulations (14 CFR) part 91, § 91.25 prohibits the use of any reports submitted to NASA under the ASRS (or information derived therefrom) in any disciplinary action, except information concerning criminal offenses or accidents that are covered under paragraphs 7a(1) and 7a(2).
Non-ASRS Report. When violation of the 14 CFR comes to the attention of the FAA from a source other than a report filed with NASA under the ASRS, the Administrator of the FAA will take appropriate action. See paragraph 9.
That said, fill out a NASA report. The investigator will appreciate it and your straight forward honesty.
If there wasnt separation-lost with any aircraft at worst I predict they will put a sealed note in your file to be erased in two years if it doesn’t happen again.
No employer would ever be able to see that kind of letter even before the 2 year time clock is up.

JamesNoBrakes 12-05-2017 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Southerner (Post 2478212)
File a NASA ASRS form like, yesterday.

Be forthcoming when you talk to the FAA. Part of the new “Compliance philosophy” is being open about making a mistake, and listening to feedback from the FAA. If they think you aren’t open to feedback or are covering up, they can take it out of the compliance action track, and put it into enforcement action. That is very rare though.

https://asrs.arc.nasa.gov


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The worst that is happening these days (if you go along with compliance philosophy and you didn't cause Air Force one to make a TCAS maneuver) is they'll have you do an hour or two of training with an instructor, no letters in your airman file, no record of enforcement actions. Very different than 2+ years ago, and that's really the worst case, some of these are being handled with counselings or having you do an AOPA course or something similar. These are all considered "compliance actions". After the inspector talks to you and finds out "what happened", it gets referred to the FAAST team where they figure out what kind of compliance action to take. It takes the FSDO a while to get the report from Air Traffic though, sometimes weeks, so don't expect a call or letter right away, but in reality the FSDO deals with these all the time and it's a relief to most inspectors that they don't have to process all the paperwork and enforcement stuff associated with how they went about these previously. There is a demographic/report portion of the Pilot Deviation that the inspector must fill out, to figure out why we are having PDs, such as are people getting enough rest, are runway signs brightly lit, are the frequencies too congested, etc. This is why they ask so many questions. You can google FAA Form 8020-18 to see for yourself. This has no bearing on the compliance action side of things, it's for the FAA to decide where they might have to allocate resources to make a dent in the PDs in the future.

Filing an ASRS report can't hurt, even before Compliance Philosophy a PD almost never came to that, because they were inadvertent actions by people that usually didn't have a history of doing it, so they were sent out warning-notices according to the enforcement rules that were in place at the time (not compliance philosophy). In some egregious cases that often involved multiple FAR violations, it would go down an enforcement road, which is where the ASRS could become beneficial, but one important thing to know about the ASRS is that it can waive the penalty, but not the decision, which goes on your record, so you would still be found to have violated a regulation, but if there was say a suspension period, that would be waived. Ultra-rare for a case to go down this road these days, but again, it can't hurt. The idea of compliance philosophy is to extend an ASAP-like program/mentality to everyone else. When airline pilots file an ASAP report, they are often able to do almost the exact same thing, discuss the event, do some retraining, and not have the pilot deviation go on their airman record. The idea is to be able to do the same thing in Part 91 and have the ability to "fix the problem", instead of "hammer the airman".

Hope this helps.

SonicFlyer 12-05-2017 10:48 PM

First mistake was giving them your information over the phone.

When you call them simply say "this is the PIC of (tailnumber), what can I do for you?"

You are not obligated to give them your personal identification.

SonicFlyer 12-05-2017 10:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lavService (Post 2478201)
File a NASA safety report immediately. https://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/report/electronic.html Things happen and it's not the end of the world. Everyone has something on their record and no one is perfect. Learn from it and move on. Be honest about it when you advance and interview with an airline.

It's my understanding that the title or subject line can be used against you, but the body of the report cannot?

SonicFlyer 12-05-2017 10:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WesternSkies (Post 2478287)
Some bad information of the NASA report here and the function.



That said, fill out a NASA report. The investigator will appreciate it and your straight forward honesty.
If there wasnt separation-lost with any aircraft at worst I predict they will put a sealed note in your file to be erased in two years if it doesn’t happen again.
No employer would ever be able to see that kind of letter even before the 2 year time clock is up.

If it is for an enforcement action, can they use the information in the body of the report against you, especially if you fill it out after you have already been contacted?

PerfInit 12-06-2017 06:42 AM

^^^ No, they absolutely cannot use anything in the body of the ASRS
report in their investigation. This is protected information.

Bucknut 12-06-2017 07:08 AM

Re: Deviation
 
Be proactive! Find a different instructor and have them conduct an hour or two of ground instruction and document it in your training record. A NASA report is not a get out jail ticket like many believe but it helps. If the FAA calls tell them what happened and make sure they know you were proactive. Keep in mind you should be very careful where you are conducting manuevers not deemed necessary for normal flight. The FAA could consider commercial manuevers as Aerobatic flight and that is illegal with in two miles of an airway centerline. There are usually airways everywhere near Class B airspace.

JamesNoBrakes 12-06-2017 07:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SonicFlyer (Post 2478308)
It's my understanding that the title or subject line can be used against you, but the body of the report cannot?

I work for the FAA. We don't see ASRS reports. They only come into play at the end of an enforcement or after an NTSB judge has rendered a decision against you, then it's kind of a "get out of jail free" card that can be used to waive the penalty of an enforcement. An enforcement means suspension, revocation, civil penalty, etc. The ASRS report has nothing to do with the investigation. We don't see them. I'd be curious to know where you got this understanding?


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 03:21 AM.


User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging v3.3.0 (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Website Copyright ©2000 - 2017 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands