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Old 09-19-2018, 10:21 PM   #51  
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Originally Posted by galaxy flyer View Post
Signing a contract to fly a piston at a 135 operator is pretty much something for nothing.


GF
Not everyone had the silver spoon put in their mouth; for the pilot seeking the multi experience, agreeing to stay aboard for a period of time isn't such a bad thing, and it's not unreasonable for an employer to make the request. It's more expensive to ensure an inexperienced pilot, and the inexperienced pilot often takes more training, especially with a piston engine where improper use is more likely to cause damage.

The new employee gains experience and multi engine time. The employer would like to see a return on the investment. Employees who bail at the first sign of a shiny turbine mean that the training and insurance process starts over, increasing costs.

Someone paid for the military pilot's training, but it wasn't the military pilot, and I've met a lot of former military that still don't grasp the concept. In fact, I've worked for a number of veteran-owned operations that won't hire military pilots for that very reason; they've come aboard and taken the training and run, some hiring right out the door of flight safety without ever even coming home to give a day of service. So long as someone else is paying, they're happy to take the training and run.

It's because of employees to who take the training and run, that these contracts exist in the first place.
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Old 09-20-2018, 07:20 AM   #52  
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Absolutely agree with you, John.. I see what youíre saying about the 135 multi time, too. Iíve seen too many guys grab the good deal and run. There was a guy next door to me at the United Skyport KHPN that got a GII job when that was the top of the heap. In school, two weeks in, he answered a blind ad in the WSJ with a resume showing his GII type. Oops, turned out to be his new employerís ad that hadnít run out yet. He got called out of class with a ticket home.

GF
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Old 09-20-2018, 09:38 AM   #53  
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Absolutely agree with you, John.. I see what youíre saying about the 135 multi time, too. Iíve seen too many guys grab the good deal and run. There was a guy next door to me at the United Skyport KHPN that got a GII job when that was the top of the heap. In school, two weeks in, he answered a blind ad in the WSJ with a resume showing his GII type. Oops, turned out to be his new employerís ad that hadnít run out yet. He got called out of class with a ticket home.

GF
Ouch.

Reminds me of the guy that logged time in numbers he saw on the ramp. One turned out to be an inspector's personal airplane. The same inspector giving him the check ride...
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Old 09-20-2018, 11:26 AM   #54  
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Use that six figure salary to pay off the contract if you're bound, and if your new employer won't help you out, and move on; make it right by all counts.

I've had numerous occasions when I've been offered a fantastic job, but had committed to the then-current employer. The commitments were nothing more than a handshake in most cases; my word that I'd give them the time upon which we agreed. My word is good because I live by it.

When the job offer came in, I told the prospective employer, as I always do, "I appreciate the offer and hope you'll keep me in mind. I have promised this employer, and I won't do it to them, as I wouldn't do it to you." The prospective employer has always appreciated my position, and some of the job offers remained on the table, others went away.

On several occasions, I called up the former offer and asked if it was still available. Not only was it available, I was at work a few days later. Integrity counts.
Yes, exactly. And that is why I will NOT jump ship and run it up my old company's a$$. Someone has to say for the bill in the end. I have been getting phone calls for job offers left and right but I made the commitment and I am sticking to it. Integrity is everything. Hindsight is 20/20.
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Old 09-20-2018, 11:30 AM   #55  
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Originally Posted by Stimpy the Kat View Post
" But my integrity and reputation is everything to me.."

I am sorry to say it...NO it is not.

Even in the depths of the "No Hiring" period and with no income...Many of us REFUSED to even entertain the IDEA of a Training Contract / Bond of any sort.

That Sir, is Integrity.

In the current Market, to submit to this, indicates naivete', youth, and general ignorance of the world ahead of oneself.

You further indicate that you KNEW you were doing something less than intelligent yet, did it anyway. (?)

Because, " You we're Told? "

HMMM ?

Here can be your moment of growth and acknowledgement:

> It was stupid.

> You know it.

> You own it.

> You honor your Contract.

> You grow Older and Wiser.


If you can handle the above...Good For You. As well as "Good Luck" with the rest of Life's Journey.

The Best Thing?

Hopefully, We ALL get to Live and Learn from our mistakes. No matter how old we are.

( Well, at least 40% of us do. )


STK
Hindsight is 20/20. I may be disgruntled and wanting to leave, but im not. Never said I was in my other post either. A commitment was made and I am sticking to it.
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Old 09-21-2018, 09:36 AM   #56  
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Good for you then.

My apologies if I missed that point and came across to strong...

STK
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Old 09-24-2018, 06:44 PM   #57  
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Originally Posted by JohnBurke View Post
Not everyone had the silver spoon put in their mouth; for the pilot seeking the multi experience, agreeing to stay aboard for a period of time isn't such a bad thing, and it's not unreasonable for an employer to make the request. It's more expensive to ensure an inexperienced pilot, and the inexperienced pilot often takes more training, especially with a piston engine where improper use is more likely to cause damage.

The new employee gains experience and multi engine time. The employer would like to see a return on the investment. Employees who bail at the first sign of a shiny turbine mean that the training and insurance process starts over, increasing costs.

Someone paid for the military pilot's training, but it wasn't the military pilot, and I've met a lot of former military that still don't grasp the concept. In fact, I've worked for a number of veteran-owned operations that won't hire military pilots for that very reason; they've come aboard and taken the training and run, some hiring right out the door of flight safety without ever even coming home to give a day of service. So long as someone else is paying, they're happy to take the training and run.

It's because of employees to who take the training and run, that these contracts exist in the first place.
Not unreasonable, Business's do it ultimately when the market allows them to charge you for the job. Know your experienced enough to know this business reality. Heard it in 1993 when no pilots needed. Airline president "I do it because I can" was the reason for Pay for training. Want a job? Become an indentured servant for awhile.
Military :
I spent 30 years serving around the world giving my fellow citizens a return on their pilot training investment. 10 years of active duty military for pilot training is not a cut and run proposition. Yes, I did pay for it in part with my service obligations and I pay and paid taxes that helped pay for my training. Appears military pilots are low brow folks in your world. Personally, would hire mil types if I had a business. Know what it takes to keep them around even with lower pay than market. No silver spoon here. Earned like most
Cheers
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Old 09-24-2018, 06:58 PM   #58  
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Appears military pilots are low brow folks in your world. Personally, would hire mil types if I had a business. Know what it takes to keep them around even with lower pay than market. No silver spoon here. Earned like most
Cheers
Speak for yourself, not for me.

You don't have a business. What you would do is really irrelevant. What you would do would need to be tempered by what actually happens to you and your business. Perhaps if you saw eight or ten pilots show up, take your 20-40,000 dollar training and never show up for work, you might change your tune. Especially given that the cost of replacing a pilot is more than just the training dollars.

Everybody earns their keep. Military aviators sometimes feel like they've paid their dues, and are therefore somehow different, almost as if they've earned it more than others; it's arrogant. Everybody else earned it, just didn't get paid as much to do it, or get the perks. Or get someone else to pay for it.

The employers I mentioned, the ones who were veterans themselves, elected not to hire any more veterans precisely because they had most of their problems from military flyers. Not my decision. Not my observation. Not my policy. Theirs. I work for one gentleman who has multiple Purple Hearts, a large flag in his hangar as well as service flags and who is as proud as any of the service he gave. His personal experience with military aviators is what has lead him to hire no more. He's fed up. If I'd had the losses he's had due to the same thing, I'd probably feel the same way. Another career military pilot I flew for...he flat-out refused to hire another military aviator, after the eighth one in a row failed to return from FSI. He bought them each a type rating, they all knew that he asked for a year in return, and they all knew the wage. They took jobs out the door; jobs that required them to hold a type, so they got this owner to buy the type then jumped ship and went elsewhere. It is what it is, but that level of dishonor is what leads to training contracts and in leaner times, pay to play.

I've spent my fair share of time in combat zones as well as third world countries as well as demanding, high intensity flight environments. It means nothing. It's irrelevant, really, especially to this thread.

If a pilot makes a commitment, I don't care where he came from or what his background it or how special he thinks he is, or how much that shiny jet syndrome is gnawing at his gut trying to pry him away. It's not really that complicated: honor the damn commitment. Where integrity has fallen to a rubble of dishonesty, training contracts and the like grow in it's wake. If one has hitched one's wagon to such a contract, or made a commitment, the wrong question is how to get out of it.

If you can't do the time, don't sign the line, as a bad poet might say.
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Old 09-24-2018, 07:17 PM   #59  
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...
If a pilot makes a commitment, I don't care where he came from or what his background it or how special he thinks he is, or how much that shiny jet syndrome is gnawing at his gut trying to pry him away. It's not really that complicated: honor the damn commitment. Where integrity has fallen to a rubble of dishonesty, training contracts and the like grow in it's wake. If one has hitched one's wagon to such a contract, or made a commitment, the wrong question is how to get out of it.

If you can't do the time, don't sign the line, as a bad poet might say.
We agree on this. You brought up the military pilot as examples
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Old 09-25-2018, 07:08 AM   #60  
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Some companies require a re-current contract as well.

An example:

Company A required a 1 year initial type pro-rated contract on new hires.

Company A then requires a 6 month contract be signed for each re-current class.

For PICs, this means you have two very small windows per year to seek new employment without being on the hook for $$$.

I can see Initial type contracts as these are pricey and the true "value" to the pilot. But re-current contracts? Isn't that just part of the price of doing business?

How does one get a new job without incurring costs if you are literally under contract forever? Unless of course you refuse to do currency training
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