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Old 08-14-2018, 09:41 AM   #41  
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Different but related..

How many Color Blind pilots do the airlines hire ?

Aren't they protected under the ADA, especially if they hold a First Class Medical with a S.O.D.A ?

Unscientifically, I bet the number of Color Blind pilots (at the Legacies anyway ) is approx. ZERO (?)

Discuss..

:)
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Old 08-14-2018, 10:46 AM   #42  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stimpy the Kat View Post
Different but related..

How many Color Blind pilots do the airlines hire ?

Aren't they protected under the ADA, especially if they hold a First Class Medical with a S.O.D.A ?

Unscientifically, I bet the number of Color Blind pilots (at the Legacies anyway ) is approx. ZERO (?)

Discuss..

:)
I think the real filter on that these days is the FAA. I'm not sure an airline today could/would refuse to employ a pilot based on a condition for which he has a SODA.
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Old 08-14-2018, 11:13 AM   #43  
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Originally Posted by BoilerUP View Post

I would absolutely disagree with that, as would probably everybody who has ever been a 91, 135 or 121 Chief Pilot.
And everyone who has ever been a street cop would disagree with you. I'm not saying that bad actors STILL don't get through to become candidates for the majors, and I'm sure that the relatively small percentage that do are a constant pain to the Chief Pilots at every level, but any street cop would tell you that pilots as a group and professional pilots in particular are rather dramatically under represented among troublemakers in the general public - even relative to their sparse numbers.
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Old 08-14-2018, 11:17 AM   #44  
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Originally Posted by Stimpy the Kat View Post
Different but related..

How many Color Blind pilots do the airlines hire ?

Aren't they protected under the ADA, especially if they hold a First Class Medical with a S.O.D.A ?

Unscientifically, I bet the number of Color Blind pilots (at the Legacies anyway ) is approx. ZERO (?)

Discuss..

:)
Nope. 10% of all males have some degree of color deficiency and that includes many flying for the majors. And the ADA was specifically amended after Sutton vs UAL to preclude airlines setting their own physical standards higher than required by the FAA.

In fact, they can't even do a company physical on you until AFTER they hire you. Nor can they legally even ask you if you have a SODA.
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Old 08-14-2018, 11:37 AM   #45  
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I remember many of the airline's application forms in the 90's slipping in some sort of question like : " Any Waivers" or " Statements of Demonstrated Ability" - if so, what for?

It was very simple for them to set up the screening so that those interviews never happened. Even easier after the computers started looking at all applications.

It would be interesting to know how many of the top ten airlines have hired Color Blind pilots and, approx. how many prior to and after the rulings came down that they couldn't ask about such things.

??

Stimpson

Last edited by Stimpy the Kat; 08-14-2018 at 11:57 AM.
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Old 08-14-2018, 12:07 PM   #46  
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I remember many of the airline's application forms in the 90's slipping in some sort of question like : " Any Waivers" or " Statements of Demonstrated Ability" - if so, what for?
I believe you. UAL vs Sutton wasn't decided until 1999 and it took Congress about 8 more years to revise the ADA to preclude employers doing that.

Of course any caught TRYING to do that now would probably be paying the individual through the nose if they didn't give him/her (although for color deficiency mostly him) the job after they ask the question, and in trouble with the DOJ either way. Stupid policies CAN be changed, no matter how hallowed by tradition. Although sometimes - yeah, it takes something like amending the ADA to do it.

From the EEOC website:

Quote:
Can an Employer Require Medical Examinations or Ask Questions About a Disability?
If you are applying for a job, an employer cannot ask you if you are disabled or ask about the nature or severity of your disability. An employer can ask if you can perform the duties of the job with or without reasonable accommodation. An employer can also ask you to describe or to demonstrate how, with or without reasonable accommodation, you will perform the duties of the job.

An employer cannot require you to take a medical examination before you are offered a job. Following a job offer, an employer can condition the offer on your passing a required medical examination, but only if all entering employees for that job category have to take the examination. However, an employer cannot reject you because of information about your disability revealed by the medical examination, unless the reasons for rejection are job-related and necessary for the conduct of the employer's business. The employer cannot refuse to hire you because of your disability if you can perform the essential functions of the job with an accommodation.

Once you have been hired and started work, your employer cannot require that you take a medical examination or ask questions about your disability unless they are related to your job and necessary for the conduct of your employer's business. Your employer may conduct voluntary medical examinations that are part of an employee health program, and may provide medical information required by State workers' compensation laws to the agencies that administer such laws.

The results of all medical examinations must be kept confidential, and maintained in separate medical files.
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Old 08-14-2018, 01:50 PM   #47  
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Well, back in the 80s, airline company physicals were standard part of interviewing. AA had a grueling one. I had one to get hired at EAL, pretty much the FAA one, but tighter standards on some areas. Most airlines flat out required 20/20 uncorrected to be hired. Anyway, I had a spinal fusion after a trauma injury and at m6 back to work physical in ‘87 was told, it would be one of the few disqualifying injuries—too much exposure for early disability claim.



Gf
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Old 08-14-2018, 02:05 PM   #48  
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to the OP:


What is the disability you have that the Hogan will identify ?


To "win" such a case,

  1. you need to have a disability
  2. FYI that if indeed you have a disability, is the FAA aware ?
Quote:
Sec. 12102. Definition of disability As used in this chapter:
(1) Disability
The term "disability" means, with respect to an individual
(A) a physical or mental impairment that substantially limits one or more major life activities of such individual;
(B) a record of such an impairment; or
(C) being regarded as having such an impairment (as described in paragraph (3)).



To prove discrimination in this case, you will need to (again), have a disability, and prove that the employers knowledge of said disability caused them to discriminate against you. If your FAA medical file is clean, and your driver's license has no medical limitations, what else does the Hogan employer have to use to "know" you are disabled ? They don't.


Note you CAN be disabled and have an FAA medical, but I don't think that scenario applies here.
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Old 08-14-2018, 02:36 PM   #49  
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to the OP:


What is the disability you have that the Hogan will identify ?


To "win" such a case,

  1. you need to have a disability
  2. FYI that if indeed you have a disability, is the FAA aware ?



To prove discrimination in this case, you will need to (again), have a disability, and prove that the employers knowledge of said disability caused them to discriminate against you. If your FAA medical file is clean, and your driver's license has no medical limitations, what else does the Hogan employer have to use to "know" you are disabled ? They don't.


Note you CAN be disabled and have an FAA medical, but I don't think that scenario applies here.
What you say was the law before the 2008 amendment to the ADA and pretty much why the UAL won in UAL vs Sutton which was fought all the way up to the Supreme Court. But the law was changed directly in response to UAL vs Sutton, indeed several SCOTUS judges that voted in favor of UAL RECOMMENDED that it be changed because they thought UAL had no business necessity to medically disqualify anyone that the FAA deemed qualified. But also reinforced was the
"C. Being regarded as having a disability issue".

Disqualifying on the basis of an MMPI or Hogan may indeed be considered by a court as the would-be employer regarding the applicant as having a disability, meaning they would not be required to actually be disabled under the law.

A number of MMPI-derived personality tests have already been declared by courts to be in violation of the law and companies ordered to stop using them for pre-employment screening although to my knowledge the Hogan has not yet been challenged in this regard.

Of course all the companies using this test would need to do was to meet the 'business necessity' requirement, but based upon their own reliability testing, that would appear real difficult for them.
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Old 10-19-2018, 02:37 AM   #50  
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Excargodog is 100% correct about Bayes theorem. For the uninitiated: if you were to administer a test on a population previously screened with certainty to be free of some defect, then all positive results for the defect are necessarily false and the test is worthless. The better the pre-screening is, the more worthless the test is.

But at first glance, reference to Bayes could actually hurt his argument. If the test is shown to approximate random elimination then this test cannot possibly discriminate based on real or perceived disabilities, even if that is the employer's intent.

Here's the thing though, pilots are pre-screened primarily only on select traits that pilots require. The Hogan may still effectively discriminate among other traits where pilots have no pre-screening. These traits are the ones that could prove troublesome for the company, since it would be harder to prove a business necessity for discrimination in these areas.

So Bayes reasoning does two things here:

1. Shows that the Hogan cannot effectively discriminate among traits for which pilots are typically screened. United isn't a pilot's first job, so pre-screening defeats the test.

2. Leaves open the possibility that the Hogan does effectively discriminate among other traits. These are the traits that no one else has screened. They are not a business necessity.

Folks, this is a phycological test. The employer will use the result to assess phycological competence. Anything below the desired competence is a perceived disability. Bayes can show that these disabilities occur only in areas that are not a business necessity. If I were on United's legal team I'd be worried about this. Excargodog's argument is strong even without reference to Bayes.

The only way out of this is for the company is to insist that the Hogan is not a psychological test. If the Hogan were part of a Bayesian filter and correct answers were found and weighted only through discipline statistics and previous tests, then it could be considered a statistical risk assessment and I believe that would be legal. As a phycological test, however, with answers chosen and weighted by smart people, this test is currently illegal.
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