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Airline Pilot Central Forums (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/)
-   Aviation Law (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/aviation-law/)
-   -   Is use of the Hogan consistent with the ADA? (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/aviation-law/116020-use-hogan-consistent-ada.html)

Excargodog 10-19-2018 07:50 AM
There is another wholly unrelated issue with the Hogan. It is not necessarily a legal issue, but it could be a PR issue.

The stated goal of the company in giving the test is to insure that future hirees are compatible with previous hirees. A different way of phrasing this is that they want to have procedures that insure a lack of diversity in their Pilot employees. Given that the Hogan hasn't ever been cross-culturally validated, this sort of sounds like someone going to considerable effort to discriminate. In fact, it could easily be made to seem xenophobic by any enterprising young journalist who wanted to count coup on a big corporation.

sailingfun 10-20-2018 06:22 AM
Originally Posted by Excargodog (Post 2694231)
There is another wholly unrelated issue with the Hogan. It is not necessarily a legal issue, but it could be a PR issue.

The stated goal of the company in giving the test is to insure that future hirees are compatible with previous hirees. A different way of phrasing this is that they want to have procedures that insure a lack of diversity in their Pilot employees. Given that the Hogan hasn't ever been cross-culturally validated, this sort of sounds like someone going to considerable effort to discriminate. In fact, it could easily be made to seem xenophobic by any enterprising young journalist who wanted to count coup on a big corporation.
Most major airlines would simply show their statistics on hiring. I suspect most qualified minority applicants have a higher rate of getting the job offer than white males. End of story at that point.

Excargodog 10-20-2018 06:26 PM
Originally Posted by sailingfun (Post 2694735)
Most major airlines would simply show their statistics on hiring. I suspect most qualified minority applicants have a higher rate of getting the job offer than white males. End of story at that point.
Not if someone mounted a good PR campaign against it.

sailingfun 10-23-2018 11:52 AM
Originally Posted by Excargodog (Post 2695035)
Not if someone mounted a good PR campaign against it.
Against what? Having hiring standards? When you interview 100 applicants to hire 10 you are going to discriminate against 90. You might discriminate against them for test scores, interview skills, background, legal issues or not having a fresh haircut and shined shoes. Hiring is a discriminatory process.
Sounds like some of the sea lawyers on here would only be happy with hiring by lottery.

badflaps 10-23-2018 01:06 PM
I think the Hogan is probably outdated. It's true purpose was to see if the subject would object to wearing a hat. Delta will carry on.

fadec 10-25-2018 09:30 AM
Originally Posted by sailingfun (Post 2694735)
Most major airlines would simply show their statistics on hiring. I suspect most qualified minority applicants have a higher rate of getting the job offer than white males. End of story at that point.
Except that "minority" isn't a protected status. Race and gender are, and that includes white males. Discriminating against them is equally illegal to discriminating against any other race/gender group.

742Dash 10-31-2018 06:42 PM
Originally Posted by sailingfun (Post 2696479)
...Sounds like some of the sea lawyers on here would only be happy with hiring by lottery.
Having watched decades of major airline hiring practices and having had a family member go through the current med school application process (successfully, so this is not about being bitter) -- yea. At some point it should be a lottery.

You have a position that attracts thousands of applications. You work that down via reasonable screening criteria and interviews to a number that is still much higher than you are going to hire. What is left? The final process becomes petty and often results in classes made up of clones selected on the basis of the latest HR fad and those who have the best connections.

Design the hiring system using best practices. And if at the end of that there are excess applicants then yes, lottery. The end result would be much better.

Excargodog 10-31-2018 07:49 PM
Originally Posted by 742Dash (Post 2700888)
Having watched decades of major airline hiring practices and having had a family member go through the current med school application process (successfully, so this is not about being bitter) -- yea. At some point it should be a lottery.

You have a position that attracts thousands of applications. You work that down via reasonable screening criteria and interviews to a number that is still much higher than you are going to hire. What is left? The final process becomes petty and often results in classes made up of clones selected on the basis of the latest HR fad and those who have the best connections.

Design the hiring system using best practices. And if at the end of that there are excess applicants then yes, lottery. The end result would be much better.

^^^^
Agree. Far better than pseudo science like personality testing. And eventually someone is going to take them to court alleging discrimination because of perceived disability and the airline is going to have to show a business case justifying use of the Hogan - which they will be totally unable to do since so many other companies and organizations (including the US military) manage to successfully pick pilots without it - and the test will fade into history.

rickair7777 11-01-2018 06:13 PM
Originally Posted by 742Dash (Post 2700888)
Having watched decades of major airline hiring practices and having had a family member go through the current med school application process (successfully, so this is not about being bitter) -- yea. At some point it should be a lottery.

You have a position that attracts thousands of applications. You work that down via reasonable screening criteria and interviews to a number that is still much higher than you are going to hire. What is left? The final process becomes petty and often results in classes made up of clones selected on the basis of the latest HR fad and those who have the best connections.

Design the hiring system using best practices. And if at the end of that there are excess applicants then yes, lottery. The end result would be much better.
Instead of lottery for the final cut, how about oldest first?

That gives the opportunity to those who need it more, and everyone younger will have their turn eventually.

Avoids the lopsided injustice of a 26 y/o enjoying a 40-year legacy career, while a 50 y/o languishes in an RJ (assuming equally qualified).

742Dash 11-02-2018 01:53 AM
Originally Posted by rickair7777 (Post 2701422)
Instead of lottery for the final cut, how about oldest first?
Age or experience could be used to rank otherwise equal selection results. But HR would not like that, since it is best to hire young when faced with a long term labor shortage. Which could lead to my conspiracy theory about why "too much time" is an issue these days, but I will spare everyone that rant.

As for the issue at hand, I think that a lottery would make many in the industry face up to their deeply held just-world fallacies.


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