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Old 08-19-2018, 07:08 PM
  #21  
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Originally Posted by LRSRanger View Post
Sounds to me like they should offer a competitive employment opportunity. Obviously they didn’t. Sucks to be them, better luck next time.

It’s a pilots market, a lot of these places are going to get a wake up call when they can’t staff their operations with max duty and min pay anymore. And that’s a good thing for any of us that fly for a living.

If you are in management or own one of these bottom rung operations, not so much.
Originally Posted by LRSRanger View Post
Employment should be a mutually beneficial, two way street. Especially when all they gave him was a week of indoc and a couple hours of flight time. Now he either has to pay up or serve a year of indentured servitude? And he didn't even sign anything?

Why should we always side with the (potentially scumbag) operator that isn't willing to offer a good enough opportunity to new hires to compel them to stay?

And since you bring up integrity and honor, that also is a two-way street. No verbal or written contract means he's not on the hook in any way whatsoever, but the company still wants to send him a bill. Sounds to me like they said their contract kicked in AFTER the checkride, and now they want to go back on their word and bill him anyway. So who's integrity is really in question here?

If we want to start billing for things that there is no legal basis to bill for, he should send them a bill for his time and energy wasted at a sub-par operation that equals the amount of their invoice.
LRSRanger, you are dead-on with your statements here. I didn't see any of it at my previous employer.

When I originally contacted this employer, they advertised 48-52K per year; which I said it was doable for my situation, so I packed my stuff, moved out of state with a few bucks in my pocket, and left to get started with this company. I started indoc, learning about the company, doing ridealongs with their captains, etc. these captains told me that the company pretty much lied to my face about making that figure because none of them are making that figure. In fact, they are making way less. To put things into perspective, base pay was $800 per pay period + 0.10 per mile. (They never brought the base pay into discussion when I talked to them) Basically, I'd get little pay but I'd have to fly my ass off AND fly multiple types of aircraft to get to that figure (48-52k). I chose not to disclose this information because I don't see how this is relevant to my original question. I don't see why I should attempt to honor a contract when the company itself, stuck in the 70's mentality with no integrity or honor, lied to me and on top of things, have the balls to send me a bill for pilot expenses. Why lie to future pilot applicants just to get pilots through their doors? Had they worked out a better pay for me, (which they didn't like because they claimed I was going to make more than the chief pilot) I would've stayed. The other company offers a far better deal, so for those reasons, I bailed.

I don't quite understand why John Burke made this whole thread a ****-show.
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Old 08-19-2018, 07:20 PM
  #22  
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Originally Posted by TiredSoul View Post
Spartan, how would you respond if your new employer terminates you during training because they ‘found a better pilot’?
It’s too late now but don’t do this sort of stuff.
You accepted the job, that comes with responsibilities.
Pay the training cost.
I don't think there's a "better pilot" for any kind of flying operation. If you think there is, then you'd be on my "Don't fly with this guy" list cause your way of thinking is deadly. But to answer your question, I'd leave, no hard feelings.
and uhh NO.. not giving them a dime!
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Old 08-19-2018, 07:21 PM
  #23  
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Anyone around here ever feel like this?

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Old 08-19-2018, 07:25 PM
  #24  
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Originally Posted by TeamSasquatch View Post
Anyone around here ever feel like this?

(See attachment)
John Burke right there trying to tell me I'm not an honorable pilot and I must pay that company back!
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Old 08-19-2018, 07:27 PM
  #25  
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Originally Posted by SpartanFlyer View Post
I don't think there's a "better pilot" for any kind of flying operation. If you think there is, then you'd be on my "Don't fly with this guy" list cause your way of thinking is deadly. But to answer your question, I'd leave, no hard feelings.
and uhh NO.. not giving them a dime!
Ok, company offers Pilot X a position and training in a new type. A week later, Pilot Z comes in with a type rating and experience in type. Question 1, is Pilot Z a better pilot than Pilot X for the company? He will save them money in training and have experience. Question 2, would it honorable for the Company to rescind the offer or fire Pilot X and offer the job to Pilot Z? That’s what you’re proposing. Besides, some pilots are objectively better than others.

However, how did it happen that you didn’t know all these terms and conditions BEFORE accepting and moving?

GF
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Old 08-19-2018, 07:28 PM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by JohnBurke View Post
Sounds like he quit during training, not after a checkride. After all, he made a point of telling us that he received nothing but basic indoc. This is a lie however, as he said he also received flight training. Basic indoc has nothing to do with flight training.

Regardless of how far he got through training before he quit and left the employer high and dry, he did accept the job, did accept the training, and then ran away.

Your comments remind me very much of an individual who came to us years ago for a job. I was flying a single engine air tanker at the time, and we told the gentleman that he needed more tailwheel experience. He had six hundred hours or so, but all in an RV-6, which really didn't count. Something bigger. He went to an operator near Reno who towed gliders. He managed to tow one glider before balling up the tow aircraft on landing, destroying both the aircraft and the employer's business. He then returned to us, and said he'd flown a bigger airplane, and wanted a job. He still had no experience.

When we asked what happened, the pilot told us that the crash didn't count, because he wasn't being paid yet. As he wasn't really a full employee, it didn't matter. He simply destroyed the airplane and walked away.

You're attempting to suggest that the employer is somehow obligated to the original poster because the original poster took the training and ran? It's hard to fathom that you really attempted to suggest such an idiotic concept. No, the original poster has no grounds to bill the employer for "wasting his time." Did the original poster not know the terms before he started? He did. Did he not know the wage? He did. Did he not know the nature of the flying? He did. He accepted these things, and made the decision to go to work.

Indentured servitude? It's a ******* job. It's not slavery. He accepted a job. A paying job.

A job requires training, and that's an expense on the part of the employer, who invests his time and money. The employer also has an opportunity cost. The employer has stopped looking for another employee, one with better skills and more integrity, because a mutual agreement has been reached; the employer will train the original poster, and the original poster has agreed to be trained. Instead, the original poster took the job, meanwhile entertaining offers from other employers (got engaged, but kept dating around in the days leading up to the wedding), and then jilted the employer and ran off with a new employer during the wedding ceremony.

As others pointed out above, it's not okay for an employer to tell an employee that the employer has found a better employee, after the employee has been hired and is in training. The time for that is between interview and job offer. After that, it's not acceptable. An employer who does that is going to get a bad reputation among employees, and will be considered unreliable, disreputable, and dishonorable.

An applicant may, and often does, entertain multiple job offers or interviews while looking for a job. It's acceptable to receive an offer and not accept the offer. It's acceptable to interview and not go to work for that employer. It's not acceptable to accept a job offer, begin training, and then leave, which is what the original poster did.

The original poster may or may not have a legal obligation based on an oral contract or duty based on an agreement. Most likely it's not worth the cost of legal effort to recover on the part of the employer. The original poster, however, should at least offer to repay the employer. In this case, the employer has presented a bill. Rather than try to find a way to get out of it, the original poster should settle with the employer and make a clean break.
John just go look at my response to LRS ranger. You might find more info there.
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Old 08-19-2018, 08:22 PM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by galaxy flyer View Post
Ok, company offers Pilot X a position and training in a new type. A week later, Pilot Z comes in with a type rating and experience in type. Question 1, is Pilot Z a better pilot than Pilot X for the company? He will save them money in training and have experience. Question 2, would it honorable for the Company to rescind the offer or fire Pilot X and offer the job to Pilot Z? That’s what you’re proposing. Besides, some pilots are objectively better than others.

However, how did it happen that you didn’t know all these terms and conditions BEFORE accepting and moving?

GF
Ohhh... you're putting it into those terms, I see what you mean now. I misunderstood your original post. If Pilot Z is going to save the company money in training, then give the job to pilot Z. Obviously, rescinding the offer or firing Pilot X wouldn't be honorable BUT if Pilot X hasn't signed a training contract, then he or she is an "at-will" employee and can be terminated at any time by either the employer or employee.


I knew the terms and conditions, I knew they were going to ask for training costs if I decided to leave AFTER the initial checkride, that's when they require a 1-year contract and I was going to agree to it after I had taken my checkride. but they lied to me by saying that I was going to make 48-52K a year when in reality their captains don't make anywhere near that figure. I didn't sign anything promising I was going pay back anything prior to the checkride, I was an "at-will" employee, and I had a better offer, so I left. Plain and simple.
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Old 08-20-2018, 06:29 AM
  #28  
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Ohhh... you're putting it into those terms, I see what you mean now. I misunderstood your original post. If Pilot Z is going to save the company money in training, then give the job to pilot Z. Obviously, rescinding the offer or firing Pilot X wouldn't be honorable BUT if Pilot X hasn't signed a training contract, then he or she is an "at-will" employee and can be terminated at any time by either the employer or employee.
As a Chief Pilot, I can assure no business seeking employees would do hide behind the “at will” fallacy and act like that. HR would throw me out of the office with that idea.

GF
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Old 08-21-2018, 07:59 AM
  #29  
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they advertised 48-52K per year;
these captains told me that the company pretty much lied to my face about making that figure because none of them are making that figure. I
Basically, I'd get little pay but I'd have to fly my ass off AND fly multiple types of aircraft to get to that figure (48-52k
So you could make $48k-$52k if you tried. Which means the company maybe didn’t lie. Maybe just optimistic or hopeful.
Maybe the other pilots are lazy bastards or they have a side gig.
I don’t think you ever gave this a fair shake.
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Old 08-21-2018, 09:06 AM
  #30  
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Honor

You either got it or you ain't.
If they weren't raised with the concept, you'll never be able to explain it to them. It's like talking Greek to a Turkish cat.
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