What to do....
08-21-2018, 11:56 AM
#31
Line Holder
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jun 2018
Posts: 25
Originally Posted by TiredSoul
So you could make $48k-$52k if you tried. Which means the company maybe didn’t lie. Maybe just optimistic or hopeful.
Maybe the other pilots are lazy bastards or they have a side gig.
I don’t think you ever gave this a fair shake.
Maybe the other pilots are lazy bastards or they have a side gig.
I don’t think you ever gave this a fair shake.
08-22-2018, 03:36 PM
#32
All is fine at .79
Joined APC: Sep 2016
Position: Paahlot
Posts: 4,082
Originally Posted by SpartanFlyer
Oh, those captains are not lazy, they're just not getting paid what they deserve. As a matter of fact, 4 captains are ready to leave at any point now...why? They're not making money.
People come and people leave.
People come and pay and leave early.
08-26-2018, 04:39 PM
#33
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Position: Leftof longitudinal
Posts: 1,899
"Training contracts exist precisely because of dishonorable pilots who can't live according to a handshake"
Jonathan Ornstein circa 1995 said he was doing it because he could, it was the market. No handshake, but a shakedown. Very few pilot jobs available. The pay was about 14K for first year and the training contract costs were about 14K. ALPA Randy Babbit said when he was the MEC Chair it was not an ALPA issue because pilot was on probation and between new hire and the company.
Learned a few things in those ancient days.
The market is how management looks at pilots- widgets- that they can charge if they can.
They pay bonuses now. Not because they want to pay a new hire a bonus. Its the market. Any company can't wait to furlough if they see a savings.
Just business. Pilot market overall right now. Management still going to squeeze back wherever they can. Its business after all. Management poaches other management teams pilots. Its just business. A pilot taking the offer is following the management model. Just business.
Jonathan Ornstein circa 1995 said he was doing it because he could, it was the market. No handshake, but a shakedown. Very few pilot jobs available. The pay was about 14K for first year and the training contract costs were about 14K. ALPA Randy Babbit said when he was the MEC Chair it was not an ALPA issue because pilot was on probation and between new hire and the company.
Learned a few things in those ancient days.
The market is how management looks at pilots- widgets- that they can charge if they can.
They pay bonuses now. Not because they want to pay a new hire a bonus. Its the market. Any company can't wait to furlough if they see a savings.
Just business. Pilot market overall right now. Management still going to squeeze back wherever they can. Its business after all. Management poaches other management teams pilots. Its just business. A pilot taking the offer is following the management model. Just business.
08-26-2018, 04:49 PM
#34
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2010
Position: Baja Vermont
Posts: 5,172
Sorry to break the news, but 1995 is hardly “ancient”; it’s barely half a career ago. Surprising, we had email, Internet, airbags and phones in 1995. RVSM was 2 years away, but FANS was starting in the Pacific. Kids, these days.
Did you fly the Scooter AND post this?
GF
Did you fly the Scooter AND post this?
GF
08-31-2018, 03:52 PM
#36
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Posts: 652
Originally Posted by SaltyDog
"Training contracts exist precisely because of dishonorable pilots who can't live according to a handshake"
Jonathan Ornstein circa 1995 said he was doing it because he could, it was the market. No handshake, but a shakedown. Very few pilot jobs available. The pay was about 14K for first year and the training contract costs were about 14K. ALPA Randy Babbit said when he was the MEC Chair it was not an ALPA issue because pilot was on probation and between new hire and the company.
Learned a few things in those ancient days.
The market is how management looks at pilots- widgets- that they can charge if they can.
They pay bonuses now. Not because they want to pay a new hire a bonus. Its the market. Any company can't wait to furlough if they see a savings.
Just business. Pilot market overall right now. Management still going to squeeze back wherever they can. Its business after all. Management poaches other management teams pilots. Its just business. A pilot taking the offer is following the management model. Just business.
Jonathan Ornstein circa 1995 said he was doing it because he could, it was the market. No handshake, but a shakedown. Very few pilot jobs available. The pay was about 14K for first year and the training contract costs were about 14K. ALPA Randy Babbit said when he was the MEC Chair it was not an ALPA issue because pilot was on probation and between new hire and the company.
Learned a few things in those ancient days.
The market is how management looks at pilots- widgets- that they can charge if they can.
They pay bonuses now. Not because they want to pay a new hire a bonus. Its the market. Any company can't wait to furlough if they see a savings.
Just business. Pilot market overall right now. Management still going to squeeze back wherever they can. Its business after all. Management poaches other management teams pilots. Its just business. A pilot taking the offer is following the management model. Just business.
It is business, the company is not your friend it is a machine.
09-02-2018, 12:18 PM
#37
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2007
Position: 777 Captain in Training
Posts: 1,457
Originally Posted by Excargodog
Honor
You either got it or you ain't.
If they weren't raised with the concept, you'll never be able to explain it to them. It's like talking Greek to a Turkish cat.
You either got it or you ain't.
If they weren't raised with the concept, you'll never be able to explain it to them. It's like talking Greek to a Turkish cat.
09-05-2018, 02:02 PM
#38
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Position: 747 Captain (Ret,)
Posts: 804
There are several things that the original poster said that jump out at me.
There are no type ratings required. This is apparently a part 91 or 135 job in light airplanes. There is typically very little flight training required for a reasonably experienced pilot to pass a checkride, when no type rating is required. The FAA does not specify any minimum flight hour training requirements.
The 135 regs require quite a few different subjects be covered in ground training, but again no minimum hours are required. This ground training was apparently conducted on computer, not by a live person.
The company wants to charge for the computer lessons and instructor time. Was the instructor a company employee, and was he being paid flight pay or straight salary? If salary, it would be unreasonable to ask for instructor reimbursement, but if the instructor was being paid for flight time the reimbursement should only be at the rate that the instructor actually earns, not the price that is charged to outsiders.
Was the pilot being paid during this period, or was he expected to train for free?
If he was being paid during this period, then I would offer to pay for the hotel and the employee price (normally discounted from the full price) for the airplane flight time only.
If he was expected to train with no pay, then no money for the company.
Joe
There are no type ratings required. This is apparently a part 91 or 135 job in light airplanes. There is typically very little flight training required for a reasonably experienced pilot to pass a checkride, when no type rating is required. The FAA does not specify any minimum flight hour training requirements.
The 135 regs require quite a few different subjects be covered in ground training, but again no minimum hours are required. This ground training was apparently conducted on computer, not by a live person.
The company wants to charge for the computer lessons and instructor time. Was the instructor a company employee, and was he being paid flight pay or straight salary? If salary, it would be unreasonable to ask for instructor reimbursement, but if the instructor was being paid for flight time the reimbursement should only be at the rate that the instructor actually earns, not the price that is charged to outsiders.
Was the pilot being paid during this period, or was he expected to train for free?
If he was being paid during this period, then I would offer to pay for the hotel and the employee price (normally discounted from the full price) for the airplane flight time only.
If he was expected to train with no pay, then no money for the company.
Joe
Last edited by joepilot; 09-05-2018 at 02:05 PM. Reason: clarity
09-09-2018, 02:31 PM
#39
Line Holder
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jun 2018
Posts: 25
Originally Posted by joepilot
There are several things that the original poster said that jump out at me.
There are no type ratings required. This is apparently a part 91 or 135 job in light airplanes. There is typically very little flight training required for a reasonably experienced pilot to pass a checkride, when no type rating is required. The FAA does not specify any minimum flight hour training requirements.
The 135 regs require quite a few different subjects be covered in ground training, but again no minimum hours are required. This ground training was apparently conducted on computer, not by a live person.
The company wants to charge for the computer lessons and instructor time. Was the instructor a company employee, and was he being paid flight pay or straight salary? If salary, it would be unreasonable to ask for instructor reimbursement, but if the instructor was being paid for flight time the reimbursement should only be at the rate that the instructor actually earns, not the price that is charged to outsiders.
Was the pilot being paid during this period, or was he expected to train for free?
If he was being paid during this period, then I would offer to pay for the hotel and the employee price (normally discounted from the full price) for the airplane flight time only.
If he was expected to train with no pay, then no money for the company.
Joe
There are no type ratings required. This is apparently a part 91 or 135 job in light airplanes. There is typically very little flight training required for a reasonably experienced pilot to pass a checkride, when no type rating is required. The FAA does not specify any minimum flight hour training requirements.
The 135 regs require quite a few different subjects be covered in ground training, but again no minimum hours are required. This ground training was apparently conducted on computer, not by a live person.
The company wants to charge for the computer lessons and instructor time. Was the instructor a company employee, and was he being paid flight pay or straight salary? If salary, it would be unreasonable to ask for instructor reimbursement, but if the instructor was being paid for flight time the reimbursement should only be at the rate that the instructor actually earns, not the price that is charged to outsiders.
Was the pilot being paid during this period, or was he expected to train for free?
If he was being paid during this period, then I would offer to pay for the hotel and the employee price (normally discounted from the full price) for the airplane flight time only.
If he was expected to train with no pay, then no money for the company.
Joe
No paid training. No per-diem, no money whatsoever. I was going to start getting paid after the initial checkride.
09-09-2018, 04:36 PM
#40
All is fine at .79
Joined APC: Sep 2016
Position: Paahlot
Posts: 4,082
I don’t think that getting stuck in the minutiae is helping any.
Was the instructor wearing a company uniform? Was this during business hours Mon-Fri?
This is called rationalization and it gets taught during your CFI as being a common defense mechanism.
Either pay or you don’t.
I’m saying take the high road.
Have you considered what you’re going to tell the HR interviewer at your airline job?
Was the instructor wearing a company uniform? Was this during business hours Mon-Fri?
This is called rationalization and it gets taught during your CFI as being a common defense mechanism.
Either pay or you don’t.
I’m saying take the high road.
Have you considered what you’re going to tell the HR interviewer at your airline job?
